How I Learned to Love Shrimp

Kelvey Vander Hart on appealing to wide range of political and religious beliefs

• Amy Odene & James Ozden

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Kelvey Vander Hart from the Wilberforce Institute joins us to share her approach to animal advocacy from a politically right-of-center view and how her Christian faith guides her activism.

• The importance of bipartisan approaches to engage the masses in animal advocacy
• Why animal welfare should be a cross-cutting issue that transcends political affiliation
• How political coalitions can be built around specific animal welfare issues rather than comprehensive platforms
• Reforming government subsidies that prop up factory farming and removing barriers to innovation
• The connection between Christian values of mercy, compassion, and justice and animal welfare
• Ways to engage faith communities in animal advocacy through shared values
• The pragmatic necessity of working with people across the political spectrum to achieve progress
• The story of William Wilberforce, who helped abolish the slave trade and founded the world's first animal welfare organisation

Next week is our 50th episode where we'll be interviewing five guests and reflecting on the last two years since the podcast launched. Watch out for this special celebratory episode on April 15th.

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Kelvey:

Yeah, I've told some friends and family members like I would never vote for X politician. But if they will move the ball forward on animal welfare, I will stand up and clap, you know. And I might hate every other thing they're doing while they're in office. But I can. I can be a fan of this bill, you know, and then go point. I mean like right now especially with such a polarizing administration in place.

Kelvey:

It's like, are you content to sit back and say the right things and not work with someone for four years and not have any progress for four years Because you want to be like saying the right things, or will you go work with people you, you know, might really disagree with to try and move things forward?

Amy:

Hi, my name is Amy and my name is James, and this is how I Learned to Love Swim. A podcast about promising ways to help animals and build the animal advocacy movement. A podcast about promising ways to help animals and build the animal advocacy movement. A really important conversation this week with Kelvy van der Hart from the Wilderforce Institute on their approach to animal advocacy from a politically right of centre view In a space I think we all assume is fairly left-leaning. A really refreshing conversation on why a bipartisan approach is absolutely key to engaging the masses. We chat through the pros and cons of the movement being politically diverse and how we can make our important issue more appealing to those with a wide range of beliefs. Kelvy is also a dedicated Christian and talks us through how her faith has guided her activism and why engaging with religious groups could also unlock further support for our cause. And why engaging with religious groups could also unlock further support for our cause.

Amy:

Next week is our 50th episode, if you can believe, which we can't wait to share with you. We're interviewing five guests and reflecting on the last two years since the podcast launched, taking a projected look at the next two years as we ask our guests advice on what to look out for and put our energy towards, so watch out for this special celebratory episode on April 15th. Today we're talking to Kelvey Van der Hart, who is a senior fellow at the Wilberforce Institute, a new think tank pursuing market-based and innovative solutions for animal welfare. Kelvey also writes about ocean conservation and marine life at the Saltwater Chronicles. Welcome, Kelvey. Thanks Glad to be here, so I'd love to know what's something you've changed your mind on recently.

Kelvey:

Maybe not something you know some of your other guests would bring up, but I've changed my mind on vegan dog food.

Kelvey:

Oh yeah, when I went vegan. I'm a human. I know myself. You know I'd been like a weightlifter for a long time. I know myself, I'd been a weightlifter for a long time. I know how to get protein. I'm not a vet. I don't know my dog's bodies as well, so I was really nervous to ever pursue a vegan option, as much as I believe in this Because you hear these words tossed around by the animal industry about oh, it would be abusive, it would be neglectful, and those are scary words. But the more I researched, dogs are omnivores. They're not carnivores. They're different than wolves, as much as marketing would like to tell us. They're exactly like wolves. And really what made me make the switch was not necessarily my own lifestyle, but my dachshund was having major health issues and I was looking for just anything that would help them, specifically with allergies. I mean, poor guy just falling apart.

Kelvey:

And the allergy free food I found was also vegan, and both of my dachshunds are thriving I mean, obviously I'm still talking to their vet and stuff, but they're thriving. I've had guests comment on how my little guy has more energy than they've seen him with in a long time. He's almost 11. So, yeah, I wish I would have made the switch sooner for their sake and not been so scared about trying something new with all the conversation about it. So that's something I've changed my mind on in kind of the last few months.

Amy:

How nice. That's very topical for us. At the moment we have a rescue and she's from Thailand and they were very specific about like not changing too much stuff, obviously, like they're literally coming to a different country, completely different climate, like it was going to be such a stressful move, so we want to make the transition as smooth as possible. So they were suggesting, like the food that she had over there, which was also chicken and, I think, like rice, I think, and we got this dog vegan dog food in and she was just like rejecting so we were like, oh man yeah, this is very challenging.

Amy:

But then you know we've done it gradually like as you would, a real, healthy changeover.

Kelvey:

And now she is obsessed both of my dachshunds are huge, huge fans, so that's great because I can be picky.

James:

I'm a bit jealous because I have a cat who is also very stubborn and it's a bit more challenging with them so we haven't figured, we haven't figured out quite yet.

James:

We're working on it yeah, yeah even though this actually could be a whole episode in itself is like vegan pet food. Maybe it should be so, but we yeah, we'll come back to that, um, but that's not the main reason. We want to speak to you, Kelvey. I think something that I find really interesting about your work in the Wilberforce Institute, which we'll talk about, is you focus more on a politically right of center viewpoint on why we should care about animals. What are the motivations that drive you to care about animals and maybe how that might differ to others?

Kelvey:

Yeah, that's always such a hard question because with my personality I've had a lot of people specifically right of center. People say, why should I care? And you know my, my gut instinct is you just should you just should.

Kelvey:

That's not a sufficient answer for so for myself. You know I grew up around animals. I've had dogs my whole life. I was the weird homeschool kid who had like snakes, you know, hermit, crabs and rodents. You know we always grew up with animals in the house, had a horse in high school. I've always been around these animals and when you're around these animals you just gain such an appreciation for they are individuals. They have feelings, you know. Their feelings get hurt and they also feel pain. They suffer. And when you're, when you're around that, when you realize you know they are, they're individuals that can suffer. Like why would I want them to suffer, you know? Why would I be content to sit here while so many of them suffer? So that's kind of what drove me to animal advocacy, just a love for animals that went beyond, you know, just wanting to be around them. But it's like, okay, how do I make their lives better? Because clearly they need something to change.

Amy:

Yeah, absolutely. Is it a kind of misconception, Like I think there's a feeling in the movement that people that care about animals would more likely be, you know, left leaning? How often do you come across people with similar political views and that shared motivation to help animals from the position that you're in?

Kelvey:

So I'm in a weird position where I feel like I kind of jump between worlds because I'm actually not conservative or Republican, I'm libertarian. So for your listeners, libertarians broadly really believe in personal autonomy and limiting government, but then the views can differ wildly. So in the United States we have a segment of libertarians that are very, very, you know, pro-trump, pro-rfk Jr, that are, you know, kind of in that wing, and then you also have super, super far left, almost anarcho-capitalists, who you know down with the state. So you get a lot of variance. For For me personally, you know, I tend to lean really, really left on some social issues. But I love free speech, limited government, you know where we're really really thinking through regulations and targeting regulations. And then I also like open markets without you know the government manipulating them and corrupting them and limiting the possibility for innovation. So from that, you know, perspective, there are a lot of people in the movement who maybe they're not as loud as maybe I am, but that really do care, and it doesn't even always come from a motivation of we really care about these animals, but sometimes they see the things that our government will do to animals and they want to eliminate that.

Kelvey:

So it might not come from the same motivation, but it's a wider base than you would think among you know, speaking for myself, libertarians, but also I've met so many Republicans and conservatives who also really, really care. You know I work with a ton of them, you know, on this sort of stuff and they want to see innovative solutions move us away from some of the cruelty we're seeing specifically in our, you know, agriculture, industry and things like that. So they're out there, maybe not connected to kind of the same left environmental circles that are usually tied to some of this animal welfare stuff in the united states, but they're out there, sure and yeah, I'm really glad you brought up the different like subgroups.

James:

Yeah, within the like, I guess, the right of center kind of coalition, because it's kind of some of the left, you know it's not one homogenous block, it's very factional. Your view like, what are the kind of factions that you think are more amenable to animal welfare issues? Do you think it is libertarians? Do you think it's another group? And yeah, how come?

Kelvey:

We tend to kind of divide this down, not necessarily even so strictly based on like the libertarian, conservative, republican. But what do they care about elsewhere? So one group that we think about a lot at Wilberforce is, you know, like pro-life Christians, where that kind of maybe natural. They're already thinking about some of this stuff. So maybe it would be a natural extension to get them to think about animal lives as well.

Kelvey:

Or for me, being kind of like health conscious and being like more of a you know I sometimes hesitate to use the word now, but crunchy libertarian I think about, okay, you know we don't want these big like factory farms. You know we're very like concerned about environmentalism and stuff like that. So there are kind of different, you know different factions you have. You have your like environmentalist GOP, which they might be a little, you know, sometimes a little friendlier with like regenerative ag and farmers and stuff like that than I necessarily would be, but they do care about how animals are treated. You have people who are really pursuing innovative solutions to things, who think that that can solve stuff. So it kind of depends on what they're working on. You know elsewhere what they really care about and then how does that connect to their politics?

Amy:

Did you say crunchy?

Kelvey:

Can you explain that?

Amy:

Can you explain that to me?

Kelvey:

It's a little bit of a slang term. It was usually really, really used for the left to just like very environmentally concerned, almost like hippie. But today, in the United States specifically, it's kind of taken on a life of its own within you know, people who voted for Trump and that kind of make America healthy again agenda. So in the United States, this is for me, this is why sometimes I hesitate to use the word but it's taken on a very specific connotation in right wing politics that I don't necessarily hold to, but those sorts of people are very interested. So, you know, maybe it's somebody who's very concerned about things having to do with, like vaccines and antibiotics and stuff like that. Well, that ties right into factory farming. So my perspective is always where can we meet people where they already are? You?

Kelvey:

know if they're not already part of the movement and connect them to this yeah.

Amy:

So I think I'm really aware, from even from sitting in the UK, of some of the current administration and Trump's opinion on a lot of those problematic topics, but I haven't heard much in terms of like their narrative on factory farming or like what some solutions might be to the challenges that we face in this movement. Is there a sort of consensus on what the current administration are like saying to people or like telling the population about this particular topic?

Kelvey:

I don't know that there's a consensus. Some of my people that I work with might disagree with me on that, but that's okay. I do know that there is a little bit more willingness to maybe put out in the open some of the things that the government does that impact these industries, so things like farm subsidies. You know, I feel like I've seen more conversation about how we're funding some of these things, which is a key component to this in the United States. From that angle, yes, and there's also, you know, especially with, like RFK Jr running our health and human services department, there's more conversation about just some of the ways factory farming and our food system works, and you know those are all good conversations. I don't know that there's any cohesive agenda among the Trump administration on this, but we are seeing some positive things, whether it's Department of Government Efficiency being, you know, maybe willing to cut some places or just talk about something. So, from that perspective, yes, there's there's an openness to kind of bring some of these things into the light.

James:

I guess most of this will be very US focused, because I guess that's, kelly, your background and I guess is maybe where the issue is most acutely tense in some ways in terms of polarization and, relatedly, how polarized do you think this issue already is in terms of animal welfare or alternative proteins, along these kind of classic political lines, or do you think it's kind of not there yet or on the way and we can stop it? What are your thoughts on current state of polarization?

Kelvey:

To talk about this you have to separate maybe politicians and kind of like the political machine from your average voter and when you talk to just you know people in your life it's not as polarized as you would think. I've been able to kind of talk to family members and friends and who you know, normally wouldn't agree with me on stuff at all, you know. But think about things like bird flu and the ways that the agriculture industry impacts us. So I'm a native Iowan and in Iowa it's all agriculture, you know pretty much is the focus of the state.

Kelvey:

One of the big problems in Iowa are ag-gag laws which add basically a layer of protection where people cannot speak about, they can't write about, they can't publish things that they're seeing on some of these factory farms and you know, and even things like puppy mills and stuff like that.

Kelvey:

Well, trespassing laws already exist, theft laws already exist, if that applies. So really it's a huge violation of the First Amendment to be able to protect the agriculture industry and so that you can get people to rally around both on the left and the right. Maybe our politicians want to keep protecting the agriculture industry and are a little slower to change because they're really, really connected to this industry and want to see it protected, even if it means covering up some abuse. But people who care about the First Amendment, whether left or right, can usually look at this and when you explain hey, laws already exist, you know, if they get mad about people coming onto their property, there's trespassing laws. But banning people from talking about what they're seeing is violating free speech. So I think that there are ways where people can unite. The problem comes when we look at something from a whole and say everybody should agree on everything.

Kelvey:

And when we can take a step back and take it issue by issue by issue, we can agree that this is a problem, even if we might disagree on a solution. Well then we can start making progress. You know, so the political machine is slower to change, but when you can get people thinking about stuff like this, there really is far less polarization than you would think and is that also the case at scale?

Amy:

Because I guess you're giving examples here where it's maybe like friends and family and you can have those more sort of softer conversations. Is it the same in the public discourse or in the way that companies and politicians are having this conversation? Is there a way to kind of frame it to make sure that it remains bipartisan in the long term?

Kelvey:

I think there is, and I think it comes from just allowing people to have the freedom to step outside of a political box that they might find themselves within and you know to assure them that, hey, it doesn't make you any less Republican or conservative for what's safe to end or to move things forward, and I think giving people that permission can be really helpful.

Kelvey:

I've been pleasantly surprised as we've worked with Wilberforce. A few weeks ago we were in Washington DC for a pretty big libertarian conference and we were tabling there and I was very much expecting a lot of hard conversations and a lot of people to just be really angry about our booth, and that's not what we experienced at all. I mean, I'd say probably 99% of feedback was super positive. People were thrilled to see we were there and you know I've been in this movement for a long time, both in the animal welfare and kind of the libertarian sides of things, and I wasn't expecting that. So I think that the willingness is there. You know, if we can give people the freedom to say you don't even you don't have to support this, like you might see your leftist friend do, there are so many ways and angles you can tackle things from, and I think that people are a lot more willing to, you know, support animal welfare if, if we can give them that freedom yeah, I think a really good point there on.

James:

There's maybe specific things within the broader animal welfare issue that we all agree on. I think Agag is one good example. Is there anything else that comes to mind, as people are really fired up around having pigs and gestation crates or something else? Anything else come to mind as something that it's like pretty good agreement on, like across the spectrum?

Kelvey:

One of the first op-eds I ever wrote. This was years ago. The title was it was something along the lines of Vegans and Fiscal Hawks Unite. It's Time to End Farm Subsidies, because you can build a weird coalition around not wanting the government to be funding some of this agriculture stuff, because it primarily goes to these large factory farmers. You know, you see this picture and this is presented. It's a picture presented by both the left and the right here in the United States of the small farmer, the small struggling farmer who desperately needs to rely on the government so that, you know, they can feed their family. That's really not the truth. When you look at things. It's usually, you know, these big operations and pretty wealthy, pretty wealthy farmers like receiving a lot of the subsidy, receiving a lot of the subsidy and even things like right now there's not a good incentive to even explore the possibility of birds recovering from bird flu, because farmers are compensated when they cull their flocks.

Kelvey:

So these really really inhumane. Turning up the heat so that they die from the heat or smothering them in foam they can do that and then go collect money from the government. So there's not even an incentive there to maybe seek out change when you're making money either way. So I think that that is a broader thing. You know that people can unite around, because the way our government is structured to fund agriculture just makes problems and it disincentivizes any sort of innovation.

Amy:

You spoke about expecting maybe some opposition and pushback, of having a stall at that recent event. Can you talk about what the main narratives were you were expecting and why you think that was maybe different from what you actually received?

Kelvey:

I was truly expecting people to disagree with us on just animal protections period, because I think that there is a narrative here in the United States where if you want the government to protect animals, you want a big government, you want them regulating everything, when really we have a lot on the books that just need to be enforced and we can really carefully think through and craft these protections and step by step, move forward and there might be ways to, you know, improve animal welfare just through innovation.

Kelvey:

You know, I have done some work with an organization called the Property and Environment Research Center and they're working with farmers right now in the West to compensate them for letting their herds intermingle with elk, because elk need that grazing land too, but they can pass the disease to cows. So they are working on a compensation fund so that these farmers can be compensated for anything they might lose due to allowing the intermingling of species. So innovation like that is awesome. They didn't need the government to get involved, but there is a place for regulation and I'm not an anarchist, but I know a lot of people in the movement kind of lean that way. So that's kind of what I was expecting, like just let everything left alone and get the government out of it completely, and that's not what I saw at all. You know most people were very, very interested and okay with, like some protections for animals and didn't think that that conflicted with, you know, their, their political viewpoint at all, which was encouraging to me.

James:

Nice. I think, if you do look at the polls currently like there is a big, very broad and diverse support for animal welfare. It is one of the few things that is pretty cross-cutting currently. So I think there definitely is hope there. But I guess the fear is that you know we can lose that because it becomes associated with the Democratic Party or the Republican Party, which is basically one or the other, and then everyone else, like you said, doesn't want to step outside their box and I guess do you have any thoughts on, like, how we stop this happening? Obviously it's a huge question, but is there another issue? You think that's been quite good at being bipartisan like something we can learn from.

Kelvey:

So for the second half of that question, first, an issue that immediately comes to mind is criminal justice reform. There has been such a bipartisan push for that, you know, specifically like ending the death penalty. You have, you know, all sorts of groups from far, far left to conservatives pushing for reform in the United States, and that's come from I mean really highlighting some of the same things as you need to highlight in the animal industry, which is justice and mercy and compassion. And how do we, you know, handle things carefully to protect rights, to protect dignity, and I think that there's an opportunity to learn some lessons from that. You know, and that's sort of my educational background. I, you know I don't have a degree in anything related to animals, but I do have a social work and degree with a criminal justice kind of emphasis attached. So it's an issue I care about, but it's also one where I've extrapolated stuff and thought through how do we message things, because it's really successful.

Kelvey:

Reform is slow moving there too, but you have the rallying cry from many, many different factions. So I think one thing we can do to help protect the ability to be bipartisan is to be intersectional in our thinking but maybe not intersectional in our policymaking. So I think it's important to think through how things work together and fit together. I was an environmentalist before I was an animal advocate. I think the two go together For me. I find both very compelling and linked. But if we can focus on bills that specifically address animal welfare without also trying to address climate change at the same time, we might be able to get more people supporting. Certainly we'll get more GOP politicians supporting, I think it's important to realize that all these things impact one another.

Kelvey:

But to get the right coalitions going and to get enough support in the United States, we have to be thinking about how can we very specifically address things. And that is really hard when we do step back and recognize hey, it's not, you know, just, it's just one piece of the puzzle and it all connects. But when we can be really targeted and focused, you can get coalitions of people who would never talk to each other, you know, otherwise focused on one thing. And so I think that that's the way forward, to just be very, very specific and what we're trying to achieve. And so it's like, yeah, you can, you can work with a politician. You can go campaign against, you know, next election cycle on this one thing. You don't have to agree with them on everything, but you can, you can work together on this.

James:

I find that super interesting because I think lots of I think that the animal advocacy movement currently it does struggle to work with people they don't agree with on every issue and I think this is a common thing I've heard is, you know, you don't want to work with ex politician or person because they've said or done some bad things for this group of people and then suddenly the people you can work with is, you know, rapidly shrinking and shrinking. It's actually a very like small and niche part of the of the world. So, yeah, I think, having this mentality where you can work with someone on this issue, you both make progress. It doesn't mean you have to love everything else they do, but ultimately this means you're both happy. So I yeah, that's a very pragmatic approach. So, yeah, I think super important.

Kelvey:

Yeah, I've told some friends and family members like I would never vote for X politician. But if they will move the ball forward on animal welfare, I will stand up and clap, you know.

Kelvey:

I might hate every other thing they're doing while they're in office. But I can, I can be a fan of this bill, you know, and then go quietly, maybe vote yeah, if we can get to that point. I mean right now, especially with such a polarizing administration in place, it's like are you content to sit back and say the right things and not work with someone for four years and not have any progress for four years? Work with people you, you know, might really disagree with, to try and move things forward, like I don't want idealism to get in the way of being pragmatic and, you know, I think that's an important thing. We all have to sit back and think like, would we rather be, you know, saying the right stuff and and feeling like, oh yeah, we, we, you know, nodded at all the right things or actually get stuff done?

Amy:

yeah, no, I totally agree, really admire people who can put themselves in that position. I think it's really similar for the likes of corporate relations where you know vegans would be like how can you even be in the room with these like capitalist giants who maybe have like one line of vegan products but then the rest is all just animal exploitation? So I think it takes a special sort of pragmatism, like you were saying, james. To what extent do you feel as though the traditional sort of farmed animal welfare movement has that kind of political divisiveness kind of ingrained? Has it been your experience that that is like entrenched in the movement as it is today?

Kelvey:

Sort of sort of. It's a hard question to answer because you know, especially stepping back as a libertarian, I'm like we want to talk about left or right, but they've had to work together to get us to the point where you know, like we just had four years of a Democratic president and we did not see all these Democrats coming out of the woodwork saying let's reform ag subsidies.

Kelvey:

You know, maybe they were there and you know a few of them definitely, but like there wasn't a huge push to change things. So there is a sense, I'd say, on both sides of the aisle here in the United States that something is wrong with how we are currently farming. And you know, maybe you know, on the Democratic left side there's this desire to get to this more environmentally friendly, regenerative place, and on the right there might be, you know, a desire to get back to like maybe a traditional small family farm, but there's kind of this collective understanding that this is not what we want to see. You know, who likes seeing an animal in a like confined area of feed operation? Like CAFOs are terrible, no matter who you ask. But they might think it's, you know, a necessary evil, especially if they're a politician and they have one of those in their district. But I think it's it's. Understanding the motivations on on each side is important and understanding that each side has been complicit in letting us get to the point that we're at.

James:

I don't know how much. If you've engaged with animal welfare kind of groups and activists and conferences, like when you go there, is it a place where you kind of meet people with similar libertarian beliefs or you're like, oh wow, this is so politically diverse and I feel welcome, anyone can be welcome. Or actually do you have like the opposite view?

Kelvey:

But I guess I'm curious how you feel in terms of the actual makeup of the individuals in the movement wilberforce is very new, so we haven't gotten to go to too many conferences yet and have those sorts of conversations, but just kind of like, from being involved in just like personal advocacy for a long time and personal philanthropy, I think that there is maybe a an understanding among animal advocates that if you can get the ball moving somehow some way, do it. I saw that pita came out and was asking the department of government efficiency to, you know, cut like animal testing and things like that, and they're, you know, very associated with the left and not necessarily, you know, the right. I think that there is a desire to see things move forward. We might be in kind of a different group is that sometimes there's not as much of a willingness to criticize the government, particularly because a lot of the time you're asking the government to do something and not to stop doing something necessarily, and so I think that that is hard when you're so used to wanting more and more government protections for animals, which are an important piece of the puzzle, absolutely but being able to criticize and look and see where is the government actually making things worse and we need them to stop doing stuff, I think that that's maybe something harder to swallow.

Kelvey:

And all these other organizations amazing, they're doing important work. I just think of groups like Sea Shepherd and Direct Action Everywhere and things like that groups that I love and I support. But you also need this piece where, yeah, our federal government and our state governments too, have been propping up traditional, you know, like this, not necessarily even traditional, but just this larger factory farming industry and we're going to need to make some cuts and some changes to be able to let things change, because it's very hard to get things to change when stuff is still subsidized. You're having bills like cultivated meat bans passed in, you know, my state, alabama, and then in Florida too, so you're already prohibiting innovation that could change the market. So things have to happen. To reform the government in order to make larger progress and advocating for more animal protection is great I'm for it, but you also have to be willing to look at your government and tell them to stop doing something.

Amy:

We've talked, obviously, about your situation in the US. Do you think this should be a priority globally? Do you have any sense of this issue being prevalent elsewhere and how much of a priority that should be?

Kelvey:

My bias is that I think animal welfare should be a bipartisan thing across the world, and it should be something we can agree on. You know, obviously my experience is very, very focused in the United States, but an interesting thing is we're seeing these kind of changes in elections, where it's not necessarily a specific sort of direction, but the party in power is frequently being voted out. And so what do you do when you've been working with the party in power and suddenly your country just changed and a completely different political philosophy is in charge? Can you work with them too? We've just been seeing the sweeping trend where people are really tending to vote for whatever party is not in power. So I think it's really important to start establishing these relationships. You know, if who you love is currently, you know, running your government, the other party might be soon. So if you can learn to work with them too, you're in a good place getting there when other people aren't doing.

James:

It is even more important. So if you work with them when they're in opposition or not the main party. Then you kind of build credibility and connections.

James:

So when they are in power you're not just seen as jumping on the battle wagon, you actually kind of work with them throughout the whole process, absolutely totally agree with that you know the whole thrust of you know in this conversation, if people can gather is you know we think it's valuable for the movement to essentially be more bipartisan, more and more welcoming space for like kind of politically diverse viewpoints. And do you have any thoughts on how you know we might do this? Or again maybe what you've seen in other movements, like how they kind of cultivate this kind of broad charge approach?

Kelvey:

What I said about intersectionality is a key part of that, you know, keeping things very, very focused so that you can build those broader coalitions. But I think also, you know, taking it issue by issue. I'm very passionate about defunding, like federally funded animal testing. That's not the same as going and dealing with CAFOs, you know, and you might have different people who care about different things. Reaching the people who might be better aligned with that, you know, maybe it's people as far as the animal testing goes, maybe it's people you know in the, in the science industry or things like that.

Kelvey:

If you're talking about, you know, agriculture, maybe you're trying to reach Midwesterners and stuff like that. So I think, just really working and understanding that there is a whole range of animal issues and you don't need everyone to care about everything and to be working and striving towards solutions for every single one of these. You just need them to do something. Every person who joins the movement is, you know, another voice making us louder, and that's important, and so they don't have to be shouting about all the same things I would shout about to still make a difference and to be, you know, annoying enough to their state and local legislators or to be reaching out to their federal legislators. So I think just reaching people kind of where they are and you know, it might be a different coalition for each kind of subset of animal welfare issue in the United States and that's fine.

Amy:

And can you explain to me how the Wilberforce Institute is trying to tackle this issue? What are your main priorities in this area?

Kelvey:

of these other groups and think that animal welfare protections and regulations are a key part of the puzzle. But where we saw a felt need was to reform the government so that they stop doing a lot of things. So, for example, our federal government gives about $20 billion a year to animal testing. That is a two to one ratio to the private sector here in the United States. If we can get them to stop doing that, like animal testing is going to crumble. I mean, there's an agriculture component there too, where USDA runs animal testing of its own and that is incredibly cruel. I mean just things like letting sheep be torn apart by coyotes, just like all sorts of awful stuff. So there's an agriculture component to the animal testing too.

Kelvey:

But I don't think everyone knows about reforming some agencies like wildlife services, which is basically exists to also help out farmers with. You know, predator management is, I think, the line given Right. Really, you get a lot of people who might go up in helicopters and just shoot everything on site. It's not effective, it's not good. You not good wildlife management at all. It really doesn't help farmers either.

Kelvey:

So things like that, reforming things like the Bureau of Land Management's horse and burrow program, which really can funnel horses towards slaughter with how they do it. So things like that changing kind of changing the shape of government, ending farm subsidies, ending funding for animal testing, stuff like that. We want to cut those things. But there's also a market-based, innovative component where we want to support the solutions that come from, you know, the private sector that could change things. So cultivated meat is one of those things that you know. If you can get people to move away from traditional meat sources and towards these things, that's great. Different sorts of wildlife management solutions I mentioned, you know, kind of Property Environment Research Center with their elk and cattle program. Yeah, just kind of changing how we would address some of these issues and looking to see if there's an innovative way forward. So we're really supportive of limited government forming government spending on animal testing and agriculture and things like that and also supporting these innovative things.

Amy:

And is it focusing on, like the policy piece, so working with the politicians and government and the kind of public message surrounding that? Is it a combination of both or just one or the other?

Kelvey:

Yep, it is a combination of both, so working on addressing legislators and trying to set up those meetings and stuff, but also placing op-eds and just getting the conversation going about these things and specifically trying to reach out to people who might be really aligned with us, which do tend to be, you know, conservatives, republicans, libertarians who might really be interested in this reforming government aspect and could really help, especially with the current administration.

James:

being Republican, republican help open some doors yeah, you guys have written a bunch of super interesting kind of opinion pieces and other articles, that which we'll link below. But I'm kind of curious, like what's the feedback to those kind of pieces been? Like other people that reach out to you that kind of you weren't on your radar, that kind of say, oh, this is like an interesting angle I've never considered or like on how do editors respond when you submit things. I'm kind of curious how this whole, I guess, the media landscape reacts to this, I guess somewhat new issue maybe, or like this slightly less covered issue, and, yeah, how that goes for you yeah, editors have been extremely positive.

Kelvey:

We really have not gotten any weird response from editors. Mostly they're, you know, they're interested in the issue and especially you know how it can kind of tie into what's going on politically right now. But we've also gotten some really really good feedback to things and have had people reach out and even as we start talking about stuff like this, like somebody who's now on our team reached out to me simply because she was like you know, I come from a conservative background, I love animals and I recognize the name william wilberforce, which not a lot of people recognize who we're named after. So, um, you know, so we've gotten like a very, very good feedback. I mean, even from the left too. We've had people saying you know, look like I'm not. You know I probably wouldn't vote for some of the same people that you guys do, and uh, but I really support what you guys are doing. So generally positive feedback, which is exciting yeah, good very cool.

Amy:

Could you clarify more about the the name?

Kelvey:

yes, okay, so I I love talking about this william wilberforce, which was, you know, a british parliamentarian, and he entered parliament as kind of like kind of a party boy politician back in the 1700s, you know it was. It was more of like a thing of prestige for him, and. But then he became a Christian and his life was radically changed and so he decided to stay in politics and work towards the good of the people around him. So he is really, really tied into helping abolish the slave trade and that's amazing. That is recognition of not enough of ending that and working towards globally ending that.

Kelvey:

But he also a lot of people don't know this he was one of the founders of RSPCA, so he helped found the world's first animal welfare organization, and so we just really loved you know that about him and loved the example of somebody who was like fierce advocate for animals, even at the same time as they were advocating for, like, the welfare of people and the dignity of people that they saw some of the same lessons and applied it to animal welfare, and so we thought naming this organization after him would be a good way to honor that nice yeah, that's very cool.

James:

That's super inspiring. Yeah, it seems like part of the. The thesis behind will before, since two and it's already happening from what you said it seems like is you want to, I guess, show people in the conservative and libertarian world that you know there is like a strong vein of people who do care about animals and like, like you said, like it's not that weird, you know it's not, that's gonna be a risky thing and I guess by being loud and vocal about it, you attract these people and they kind of jump on board.

Kelvey:

So I think it's super inspiring to know that that's already kind of happening I think a lot of people just need honestly the permission to care about something you know if they've been told by their own.

Kelvey:

You know, maybe people in their own party and people that vote differently than them. Hey, like you, there's no place for you here, you it would be weird for you to support that. You know, sometimes they just need to to feel seen and to see that other people who you know might not agree with them on everything, but agree with them on some things are enough. Things, care about these things too, and that there's a way in for them, and then they might be more open to to getting involved yeah nice so, um, moving on then, that was really interesting.

Amy:

Learned lots in that particular section. And the other really interesting topic that we wanted to speak to you on today was in terms of your religion. So you mentioned to us that Christianity has really influenced your advocacy for animals. Can you say more about this for us?

Kelvey:

Yeah, so I have been following Jesus for well over half of my life, about the time I turned 13. And that, year over year, has just, you know, compelled me to seek out justice and mercy and compassion in greater and greater measure. And I'm obviously like human, you know, it's never going to look perfect, but I find the character of Christ so compelling. I want to look like that, you know, and have that level of peace and joy and compassion. And so a few years ago, I really started to be convicted about how we were treating animals and really start to think about, you know, if I, if I think creation is good and if I think these animals are good, and if I want us to be living as nonviolently as possible, in peace with one another, you know, and to be restoring things to, you know, as far as I am able to a place where there's harmony and unity and peace, like animal cruelty flies in the face of that, you know I was looking at the ag industry and this was.

Kelvey:

This was when I was in college. You know I grew up with animals, so I had seen just. You know these are individuals, but it's very easy to love your dog and dismiss the pig. You know Everyone. But as I got older, I just started to be so convicted. If I think these are good creations and I think that just all this death and violence is harming our planet and us as well, it does something to a person to be around that.

Kelvey:

Why am I supporting it? And so going vegetarian right as I graduated college was kind of the thing that got the ball rolling, and year over year I've just been more and more compelled to stand up for animals. You know vegan. I started getting into animal advocacy, learning more about stuff. I think I would have cared about these issues anyway, but because I'm a Christian like I just see, so you know so much it's a mercy issue. Like can we have mercy.

Kelvey:

Can we practice mercy towards, you know, creatures that don't speak our language, that you know don't live like us but share this planet with us? I think that every believer, like every Christian, should be concerned about these issues. I specifically consider myself to be, you know, extra concerned about them.

Kelvey:

There is a great Catholic theologian and activist named Henry Nowen, and he talked about the different types of love people express and some people have an indignant love that moves towards injustice, and I'm like oh yes that's me, you know so that's not all my friends, but I do think people who are also, you know, of the same faith, who are pursuing the same things, like we, should be practicing mercy and justice, and a big part of that is not senselessly killing animals about their religion.

Amy:

We can really clearly see the connection between the same sort of, like you say, mercy, reduction of suffering. All of those things just really clearly interlink. Yeah, absolutely. Do you think there's an opportunity to engage more religious people in animal advocacy? It feels like a really compelling argument. There's obviously a huge population in most countries, I would imagine, followings one religion or another. What do you think it would look like if we were to put more energy into being more involved in faith groups and trying to really spread that message through religious gatherings or groups?

Kelvey:

Yeah, I think it is so important to engage religious communities and animal advocacy because, I mean, you can look at all these different faiths. It's like what do you value? Do you value love? Do you value mercy? Do you value compassion, justice? Anything you value can be tied to animal welfare. And when we look at just animal welfare being, I would say, one of the biggest causes of suffering on our planet today, just in sheer numbers, you know, but it's so easily overlooked we should be ethical consumers. We should be thinking about how we impact, you know, not just the people around us, although that's certainly part of it, but how do we impact animals? And so for me, specifically talking, if I'm talking to other Christians, I grew up kind of with this and you know I won't make this a theological podcast, but I grew up kind of in this community that really had this like it's all going to burn mentality which I would argue is a very bad interpretation of scripture and I won't get into that.

Kelvey:

but people can DM me if they would like to talk more about this. But you know it took a long time for me to, you know, move out of those communities and to really start studying and thinking and listening to other people. And there have been, I mean, so many animal advocates in the Christian faith, from William Wilberforce who, that's what compelled him to completely change, and, you know, go from, like, loving churches. And this is hard because, you know, there are certainly groups and there are certainly people who care, but it's not necessarily something that church and you know, the global church or even the church in the United States, puts as a key value. You know, we're going to be compassionate to animals because that's a way of showing mercy and justice and practicing mercy.

Kelvey:

You, you know, like, if you can be merciful to an animal, you can probably be merciful to a person and, and you know, vice versa, I mean, when you look at some of the worst serial killers in history, they didn't start with people, they started with animals and and so you know it does something to you, and so I just I talk to people and I'm like you know, if you value justice, you know if you value justice, if you value mercy, if you value compassion, and if you think that you know, as scripture highlights, like that God is a good creator, why would you want to let his creation suffer like this? You know why. Why would you not be moved to compassion for these animals? So I think that there's absolutely an opportunity to engage not just Christians, but people of all faiths, and you just have to think through what does this faith value? Where can I meet them? You know, in what they value.

James:

I'm curious how do those conversations go when you do talk to people, either at your church or similar questions, like are they compelled by what you say? Because I thought it was very powerful what you said, even though I'm not religious myself. I was like how can anyone not be moved by that?

Kelvey:

It. It really depends. So you know I haven't lived. I haven't lived in the South for very long. It's been a couple of years since my sister and I moved from Iowa to Alabama. You know I was very Midwestern so you would think kind of the two cultural cultures are very similar. You know there's a lot of hunting. Know there's a lot of hunting. There's a lot of the quote-unquote god guns and country. You know uh group here it has been.

Kelvey:

It's been a lot harder to to reach people here, you know, and and to just communicate like hey, like compassion for animals is a good thing. You know, um, just thinking through some conversations so they don't always go well, especially with uh. You know, maybe people I don't know go well, especially with you know maybe people I don't know as well but then, like people in my direct circles, start thinking about stuff. You know my sister. So my sister and I share a house. So you know she is subjected to everything I'm passionate about and she is not a vegan at all. She cares about this stuff but she isn't quite to that point. You know I remember her coming home and slamming food down on the table after she went grocery shopping. At one point. She's like you made me shop the certificates. She was convicted, so she was looking for the options that maybe had some sort of animal welfare designation, which you know is a step forward, even if you know we're still killing an animal.

Kelvey:

I think that it's important to be pursuing that as well. But so you know, I've had some positive feedback in some conversations, but it can be slow moving and it does, I think, depend on denomination, and there's some denominations that I think care about creation more than others. But I think it's a good thing to value regardless, and there are a host of things all believers should value. They don't all have to be like rabbit advocates, like I am, like they don't always yeah, you know, pass a, pass a truck carrying chickens on the road and try not to cry.

Kelvey:

You know they might not be to that extent, but there are things we should all values. You know, sometimes the conversations are great, sometimes they're hard and, you know, make me want to go scream into a pillow for a little bit. It's important to have them and I guess I'd just say if there are other people who are of the same faith of me listening to the podcast, like you know, even if the conversations are hard, they're having because, any, any small progress is still progress, and if you can get people to start.

Kelvey:

You know, changing and thinking about things. Well, they have a whole other circle of people that they can connect to and you know and influence. So it's not fast, it's not always fun, but step by step yeah, for sure.

Amy:

I think it's like tackling it from any area you know, like thinking about it from an environmental perspective, and I think it's like tackling it from any area that you know, these huge corporations, these massive farms, the k4s as they call them in the us. It's like sort of explaining that and how different that is from all of these viewpoints, whether it's environmentalism, whether it's health, whether it's religion, whatever the viewpoint, it's all just awareness, isn't it? And I think, tapping into a group who already regularly practice compassion, and you looking out for others and all of those values that you hold, yeah, it just seems to make a lot of sense.

Kelvey:

Yeah, I think there are two specific values too that are really like relevant within the Christian faith for this conversation. Those are stewardship and generosity. You know, stewardship like I talked to a lot of people who are like, yeah, we're stewards of the planet, we're stewards of creation, like, and that means we can use these resources and treat these animals however we want. I'm like, sit back, think about it, go go sit with your bible for a little bit. Like, does that sound like anything that's said in scripture? You know, for me personally, like I think good stewardship is just not abusing and killing animals like I, you, that that's the aim, but not everybody is going to agree with that. So what can we do to make their lives better? Period, what needs to happen so that they're treated well?

Kelvey:

Generosity is another one. I am very, very my first job out of college was in think tank fundraising. I am very, very passionate about people you know being invested financially, however they can be, in the causes they care about. Generosity is already like a key component where you know something taught in scripture, I think. I think the stat is like about one out of every four things Jesus said was about money, which is a crazy rate, but like how to handle it, how to use it?

Kelvey:

how to? How to, you know, benefit people, you know people who need it. How to, how to use it to like, make the world a better place. And so I think that engaging Christians to be like, ok, you're giving to your church, that's great, cool, yeah. Where can you make a difference elsewhere, too? And I think that's understood when it comes to a lot of nonprofits doing work with humans, which is great, you know, also worthy work but, like, we should also be kind of at the forefront of funding some of this change that is taking place with animals. So I think calling upon those two values, as well as justice, mercy, compassion, are important.

James:

Thank you for that, kelby. This has been a super, I guess, insightful and, I guess, different um conversations. So, yeah, grateful for you to bring, I guess, all the background and different experiences in ways that, yeah, we haven't I guess heard from many of the guests and also a bit more personal in terms of, I guess, like your personal faith and how that's impacted you. So, yeah, this has been super insightful.

James:

So, I guess, thank you first and foremost yeah, thank you I would like to finish all the conversations with some questions, and the first of those being what's a bit of news about animal advocacy, animal welfare, that you are grateful to you recently?

Kelvey:

so this seems like a small thing, but I think every step forward to making it so that we don't treat animals like they're just a random piece of property is a good thing. And the state of connecticut recently amended laws so goldfish are no longer going to be allowed to be handed out as carnival prizes, and so often we forget about fish and then it's like you know, just because we can't hear them screaming doesn't mean they don't suffer, yeah, and so I just thought that you know, maybe a small thing, but like, hey, can we like, when we can start recognizing the worth of even an animal that small you know, a little goldfish that might have been given out in a plastic bag, we can start recognizing the worth of all animals. And so that was really encouraging to me that they would, you know, change a lot to to include that yeah, I love that.

Amy:

It's like what you said before just step by step, right, I feel like any, any local small win and you know that's not small, right, that's. That's a big step in like expanding the moral circle, as you say, thinking about fish in that way. Yes, any recommendations for people, any like books or blog posts, anything that's influenced your journey yeah, so I have a couple.

Kelvey:

one is it's a book called Fear Factories. It's very new and I'm admittedly working my way through it, but it is so good. It's by Marty Scully, who is a conservative himself. He was a speechwriter for the Bush administration.

James:

Wait, you said Marty Scully, but I'm pretty sure it's Matthew Scully.

Kelvey:

Matthew Scully. Is it Matthew Scully? Here I have it.

James:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Kelvey:

You're right, you're right, I'm the game. Somebody else Good, good catch. James, good catch.

James:

I was like you think I'm Marty Irby. I am.

Kelvey:

I'm combining names. I'm combining names. Good, good catch, thank you. He's published over the years and it's really good and it kind of gives some insight whether the reader is a Republican kind of thinking about how to connect to the left or vice versa. I think it's a good read.

Kelvey:

Another one is how to Be a Good Creature by Cy Montgomery, and she is a just animal writer who I really love. She wrote, I believe, the Soul of an Octopus and some other books that people might know, but this is kind of an overview of her years of work and kind of short stories about some different animals she's worked with and I find it really compelling and a fun, comforting read and you know it can give people if they're interested in reading some of the stuff she's written. I think it's a good starting place to see which stories you'd be interested in hearing the expanded version of. And then, because I care so much about ocean conservation, which is not necessarily, you know, the focus of this podcast today, but it's something I'm really personally care about, the documentary Blackfish, which came out in 2013. But I just watched it recently.

Kelvey:

It holds up still. It's about the captive orca industry, specifically in the United States and specifically about SeaWorld, and really follows along with the story the captive orca industry, specifically in the united states, and specifically about sea world and really follows along with the story of an orca that has killed multiple people um, I mean, he died in like 2017 but killed multiple people as of the time the documentary was being created and kind of how that happened, and the reason I'm recommending it is I think it is a you know it's not the only documentary that talks about stuff like this, but it stands the test of time as being a piece of media that created such a wave of outrage that things had to change, like it moved the needle, and so it's a very good example of how storytelling can change things. So those are a few that I would recommend to people nice nice, love that.

James:

Yeah, we'll link those all below, as well as other things you mentioned. And to close, how can people get more involved with your work, either personally or as Wilberforce Institute? How can they either find you? How can they get more involved? Yeah, anything you want to share here?

Kelvey:

LinkedIn is the best way to contact me. You can, you know, shoot me a message and we can type a phone call or whatever I write about the ocean at it's the saltwater chroniclescom. And then for Wilberforce Institute, just Wilberforceinstitute is where you'll find everything. We're very new, so don't have a lot of volunteer opportunities, but we're very interested in having people reach out to us if they want to get involved. You know we have some stuff in the works. So if you have been listening to this conversation and think, wow, this is a group I align with, a group I, you know, might want to get involved with, feel free to. You know, sign up for a newsletter, or you can even email me at kelvey at wilberforceinstitute, and we can get connected. You know I will happily respond to anything and, you know, talk about what we're doing and what we're up to and, you know, always happy to see if you'd be a good fit. So signing up for newsletter is a good way to stay involved with us and you can do that through the site as well.

Amy:

Well, thanks so much, kelvi. I feel like both of those topics actually have been really great to talk through. I feel like very kind of prominent topics right now, you know, in terms of engaging new groups, but also, obviously, the bipartisan challenge as well. So, yeah, I'm really glad that you unpacked all of that for us. It's been a really interesting episode for me.

Kelvey:

Well, thanks for having me. I love this podcast, so it was really fun to be on it.