How I Learned to Love Shrimp

Dawn Neo on the 4+ billion hens in cages in Asia and how we can help them

• James Özden

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Dawn was one of the first people in Asia working on cage-free reforms  – she started working on Asian farm animal welfare 10 years ago, often as one of the few individuals talking to major food companies about improving the welfare of animals in their supply chain.

Dawn Neo is the director of corporate engagement at Global Food Partners. She works with food and hospitality businesses as well as various stakeholders in the industry to improve farm animal welfare. Prior to joining Global Food Partners, she was the lead for Humane Society International’s farm animal welfare program in Asia. 

Today, we cover lots of important things: Major trends in Asian farming, the 2025 cage-free deadline, how to deal with countries with large informal markets, cultural differences in campaigning and negotiation and much more. 

Chapters:

(00:00:00) - Cold Intro 

(00:00:50) - James' intro and Dawn's background

(00:08:12) - Why Asia is critical for farm animals

(00:12:15) - How countries differ in production systems and why this matters 

(00:17:55) - Who is on track for their 2025 cage-free commitments?

(00:23:17) - What if companies can't meet their commitments? & how do cage-free credits work?

(00:31:13) - Which Asian countries are doing well?

(00:36:48) - Rising egg consumption in Asia 

(00:41:09) - How to tackle informal markets? Should we get new commitments or hold companies accountable?

(00:43:30) - Cultural differences in campaigning

(00:57:09) - The need for patience & self-care in advocacy 


Resources: 


For sending recommendations of future guests: 

With thanks to Tom Felbar (Ambedo Media) for amazing video and audio editing!

If you enjoy the show, please leave a rating and review us - it means a lot to us!

Dawn:

I would say in most countries you are at ninety-nine percent.

James:

Wow.

Dawn:

Nineteen percent to ninety-nine percent battery cages.

unknown:

Wow.

Dawn:

In some countries where there's slightly more free range, you get a slightly higher percentage. The baseline is a bit higher. But most of the time it is battery cages. Even the native chicken. So in this part of the world, there's this term called kampong chicken. And people think of that as a village chicken, native breed that get to roam around free range. But that is now housed in cages. People are paying double for to get what they think is uh free range eggs from native chickens, but they're actually getting better cages.

James:

Dawn Mio was one of the first people in Asia working on cage-free reforms and farm animal welfare. She started working on this topic around 10 years ago, often as one of the only individuals talking to major food companies about improving the lives of animals in their supply chain. Dawn is now the director of corporate engagement at Global Food Partners. And she works with food and hospitality businesses as well as other stakeholders in the industry to improve farm animal welfare. And prior to that, she was the lead for Humane Society International's farm animal welfare program in Asia. Given her extensive experience in the sector, we cover, I think, lots of important things. Whether it's the major trends in Asian farming, the 2025 K3 deadline, how to deal with countries with large informal markets, and cultural differences in campaigning and negotiation and much more. And on the podcast side, I've been slightly slower at getting podcasts out, so apologies for that. But I am actually looking for some new guest recommendations. So if you know someone who kind of fits the style of maybe previous guests or has some interesting thoughts, opinions, and content to share with probably people working and interested in animal advocacy, please reach out to me. You can do so via LinkedIn, uh my personal LinkedIn, James Ozan, or you can reach out via the podcast email, which is hello at how I learned to love shrimp.com. And I'll also link that below in the show notes. Please don't recommend yourself for now. It's always nice to hear about other people. But yeah, we'd love for you guys to send in some recommendations and hopefully we can have some of those on in 2026. Also, this will probably be the last episode we release in 2025. So I just want to say I hope you all have a great end of year. And as always, I'm very grateful to you all for listening. It's still kind of weird and surprising when people come up to me and say, Oh, I really like the podcast, so I appreciate everyone who listens. And I look forward to seeing you all in the new year. Without further ado, enjoy the conversation with Don. Okay, Don, thank you for joining the podcast. How are you doing?

Dawn:

Thank you for having me, James. I'm doing great. How about you?

James:

Very well, thanks. Excited to speak with you today. Something we like to start everyone off with is a question, which is what is something you changed your mind on recently related to animal advocacy and why?

Dawn:

So I've always thought that um this work requires a lot of patience and persistence. You know, um helping animals is really, really meaningful. But it's also quite difficult to change culture, quite difficult to change people's mindset. And it's only recently that I realized just how hard it is. Just how hard it is and how much resilience we all need to have in order to like stay the course and stay motivated and you know, be grateful for all the wins that uh we're getting instead of focusing on what's not yet done.

James:

Yeah, I think that's a really important reflection. I think many of us we want the world to be a better place for animals and we want the change to happen right now. And sometimes they can feel demotivating if it doesn't happen right now. But I think maybe like you're alluding to, you know, changing these big economic systems and existing farming systems takes a long time and it's not easy. But I guess did anything happen that made you think this? Like was progress just slower than you than you thought it would have been like five years ago? Or yeah, what actually happened?

Dawn:

This year is also like crunch here, right? A lot of the corporate aid commitments, you know, are due this year. 2025 has been this goal that we've all worked towards too in the past like nine, ten years. And we were very hopeful that, you know, we will see a lot of change. But this year it became apparent that we still have to uh work on it. It's still a work in progress. So that really made me realize that all the people that came before us, how much they have gone by trial and error and really achieve incremental progress bit by bit, and that's what we're doing now. Slowly and surely we'll get there.

James:

Yes, I agree. We're definitely making progress, but yes, sadly never as quick as we would like. But yeah, definitely want to talk about the 2025 deadline in a second. But maybe as some background to people who are listening who don't know about you or your work, can you maybe say, I guess, how did you get involved in farming and welfare? Like how long have you been working on K3 issues in Asia?

Dawn:

On K3 itself, I think nine, close to ten years.

James:

Nice.

Dawn:

Yeah, so I joined a movement back then, you know, when the lady who hired me previously with Humane Society International, she was in Singapore and we met and we kind of clicked over dinner and she asked me to join. Before that, I was always been interested in farm animal care issues, in how food is produced, uh, because I had a background in food technology and I wrote about the food industry. So I kind of knew a lot about what goes on behind the scenes. But as a writer, as an editor, you couldn't effect the change that you want to see. So it was really like really great that I have the opportunity to join the movement and try to do the work to talk to people, to engage them in a positive way and move them in the right direction.

James:

Nice. Yeah, so I was connected to you through uh Alyssa from Global Food Partners who said you're probably one of the people that's been working on cage-free the longest in Asia, at least uh you said maybe around nine or ten years, which is very amazing. I'm kind of curious, like what were things like when you started nine, ten years ago, what was the state of animal welfare, whether it's if hens or animals that encage uh in Asia? What does the landscape look like?

Dawn:

So at that time, I think usually I'll be the only one that you know will be engaging with a company. They've never heard of the issue. There were a few advocates working in various countries, you know, also working alone. But it was, I think I felt quite alone in the region that I was covering. In Singapore, Malaysia, Indonesia, and I think a couple of other countries. So often these companies and producers will not have heard of cage-free. In some countries, they're curious enough to want to meet you and just see what how you can help them. In some countries, it's like, I don't know what you're about. So you're probably a spammer. You won't get a connection, you won't get a meeting unless you get an introduction. And that requires a lot of networking. So the landscape has changed. Now I think over the years, more and more groups, you know, started to form in Asia. More and more talented people join the movement. So now you have uh, I think we're maturing a good speed, you know, going on in Asia.

James:

Yeah. Yeah, I think it's really exciting what's happened over the last few years. I think there's now, I think at least in many of the major Southeast Asian countries, there is dedicated groups that are working on this, and hopefully some full-time people that are working on this. So it's definitely been a big change in terms of how much resources w we're putting into it. And I don't know if you can maybe share a bit now of like for people who maybe don't know about how K Tree Progress is is going in Asia, or like maybe even the state of you know, hens in cages, like w what does it look like in terms of how many hens are there, how many of them are in cages. Obviously, you can focus on certain countries or certain bits of Asia if it's easier to be accuracy here, like this kind of broad view of like the problem, so to speak.

Dawn:

Geographically, you know, Asia covers the continent of Asia. So includes China and India, and these are some of the world's largest producers of eggs, including I think if you include Indonesia, it's even bigger. So China alone, I think has about three billion hands. India, about maybe less than half billion. China produces uh close to about 50% of the world's eggs. That's how big it is.

James:

Wow. Yeah, that is amazing.

Dawn:

Half the world's aches, and India about 7%, Indonesia about 6%, you know. But in terms of numbers, population numbers and consumption numbers and number of laying hands, it's a huge continent. You cannot ignore that this is where most of the eggs are produced in the world, and most of the consumption also happens here. Canada has steadily risen to the top of the table, you know, as one of the largest consumers of eggs per capita. Together with Japan, Singapore. So a lot of um, if you want to help animals, I think Asia is an area, a continent that is very, very important.

James:

Aaron Powell You think in these countries as well, it's like the percentage of hens in cages is like over 90%, right? Is it's very different to maybe the US or Western Europe, where it's now well in the US it's 40%, in Europe it's maybe a bit higher. What is percentage like roughly in some places like China or Indonesia or Japan?

Dawn:

There's no official government data on this from industry estimates and talking with producers, looking at the number of cage-free flock available, comparing that to overall number of laying hands. I would say in most countries you are at 99%. Wow. 19% to 99% battery cages.

unknown:

Wow.

Dawn:

Some countries where there's slightly more free range, you get a slightly higher percentage. The baseline is a bit higher. But most of the time it is battery cages. Even the native chicken. So in this part of the world, there's this term called Kampong chicken. And people think of that as a village chicken, native breed that get to roam around free range. Uh but that is now housing cages. People are paying double for to get what they think is uh free range eggs from native chickens, but they're actually getting better cage changes.

James:

Is that chickens for meat, those kind of local village chickens, or is that uh for eggs as well?

Dawn:

Egg lane.

James:

Egg lane, wow. Yeah because yeah, I I also heard about China has a large percentage of a large number of broilers in cages as well, which is quite different to other parts of the world. So yeah, that's all interesting.

Dawn:

Yeah, that that is something that's emerging, you know, um because broilers have traditionally been just on the litter, on single deck without cages, and now you know it's coming back. Not not coming back, but coming in. Cages are coming into the industry, and I I guess the industry finds it easier to manage if they keep them in cages.

James:

Yeah.

Dawn:

Even ducks. I heard that even ducks are in cages and quail.

James:

Yeah, I know that there's some new groups working on this in Indonesia and Vietnam on on both layer ducks and meat ducks who are in cages, which is obviously also bad because they're you know, water animals that they should be in water, but that's so they're it's bad on two axes, right? They can't move and they're just hatched from what they need. It's 90 to 99%. It's like this is extremely bad and probably far worse than it is in most of the places in the world. And I guess you you get the sense there is maybe like what you said saying at the beginning, is there like a slow positive trajectory that are there countries where it's going better than others? And some countries like it's like particularly hard. I'm kind of curious, like, what does it look like in in different countries? Like, uh is it like are there signs of hope? Are there signs where we need to put more effort in?

Dawn:

I guess similar to Europe, right? Europe uh uh it's a very diverse region, so every country is at a different moves at a different speed. It's similar in Asia. So you have in like in China, major producers are shifting to cage free. In Thailand, all the large producers now have cage free production and they're expanding. Like in China, one of the largest ones that's called Sun Daily. We started working with them recently. They're building Asia's, largest cage free farm to house uh 1 million layers. The largest get in Asia. And that's a big step, you know, for Chinese producers. So these are the ones that are moving a little bit quicker. The same with the Philippines, all the major producers have cage-free lines and they're expanding. And then the ones that are slightly still on a smaller scale would be like Singapore, Indonesia. It's a country where you have one million small holders.

James:

Indonesia is.

Dawn:

In Indonesia. It's a very different landscape from, say, the highly like the more industrialized countries like Singapore, Malaysia, Thailand, where uh the industry is consolidated to a few large producers. Indonesia is still very localized. You know, uh each producer maybe have a few thousand chickens and and hotels and businesses will still source from their village, from their town. So you still have very local sourcing, um, but very small production. So the challenges and the landscape is just very, very different across the region. And that's what we're here for, you know. We are here to localize the approach to each country.

James:

That's a good point in terms of the informality of the markets in some countries. It's very different to what we expect in maybe like the US, Europe, in that yeah, you don't have a small number of very large producers, you actually have, like you said, a very large number of small producers. And but you're saying, is it both true that it's both very kind of distributed, but also it's quite intensive. They they still use battery cages even though they're very small, is that right?

Dawn:

That's right. Yeah. Yeah. I think cages came in maybe in the 70s and it never went back. But unfortunately, you know, uh when we tell when producers learn of the demand, the growing demand, or rather the customers tell them, the corporate commitments tell them, some of them are actually very willing to make changes or to explore this new business opportunity to differentiate themselves from you know the conventional eggs because conventional eggs is quite hard for a producer to even have a proper margin.

James:

Yeah.

Dawn:

The bigger players just have all their advantages, and the smaller players just find it hard to have a niche. So cage free is one way for them to differentiate their product and you know survive.

James:

How do you guys as global food partners or uh other groups working on cage free in Asia? Like how does your tactics or strategy look different when tackling a country that is highly formalized and got like you know, small number of major producers versus very distributed and informal?

Dawn:

In markets where there are a few large producers, it's a lot easier. Well, you can approach them, or often these producers would be supplying a lot of the companies. So they would have like supply chains that overlap. So if you're a producer, maybe 10 of your customers ask you for K3, you would know that okay, that's a growing demand. You know, I may want to change. But if you're like in an informal economy, maybe only one customer asks you for K3 and the volume is quite small, you'll be like, that's 2% of my overall production. So, you know, you'd be less motivated to change. So there are other drivers in those kind of markets, right? Or yeah, other ways to engage with the industry.

James:

Yeah. And what are those other ways? My understanding is maybe in the more consolidated ones, you can do more, like you said, you can go to the retailers and the food buyers and you you can show them why this is an important issue and they can convince the producers, but maybe in the informal markets, you have to work with producers more directly and almost like help them one by one. Is that like yeah, is that how you do it differently, or what do you guys actually do?

Dawn:

Actually, with all of them, we help them one by one and also help the workers, you know, in their local language. One of the reasons why Global Food Partners was formed was because there is a need for capacity building in in this region. And because there are a lot of different languages here, different cultures, a lot of the knowledge and materials that were available in English in in Europe or in the US doesn't really translate well here. And in in the early years, we're bringing producers to farms in in Western countries, and it's all great to see, but when they go back, they still have challenges knowing how to move to cage-free. And the whole infrastructure is not ready. There's no no vets that know about this, the medicines, the equipment, people, all these capacity building is not yet done. So often farmers would say, Okay, if I'm willing to do this, who will teach me? Who will teach my workers in their language, you know, and language that they can't understand? So localizing the approach, having somebody somebody that speaks their language, who understands their culture, understands their concern, who can go down to the farms. Everybody, I think that really helped in some of the countries like Indonesia, where you know you have so many producers scattered across.

James:

Yeah.

Dawn:

We have to take like a cluster approach because it's a country, it's an archipelago, right? So many islands, 10,000 islands, and but most of the eggs are produced in a couple of islands. So we have to take a cluster approach that has tackle the major production centers first and uh have good case studies, have some successes, and then use that to inspire other producers.

James:

Yeah, that's cool. Yeah, I can imagine it's the thing where once you get a few people on board and you can show some case studies and people near you are doing something, it gets much easier to get the next person. So I can imagine this is the kind of thing that builds over time, which is exciting.

Dawn:

Yeah, exactly.

James:

Well, I I guess kind of we touched on this at the beginning, which is the 2025 deadline, which is coming up. And well, first I'm kind of curious like how many of the corporate commitments in Asia are for the deadline of 2025? Because obviously that you're like you were saying, advocacy started here a bit later. So are are most of them for 2025, but most of them for later? I'm kind of curious to hear like how much should be should we be expecting in the next year or so or this year?

Dawn:

Most of the I would say global companies headquartered in US and Europe, they made their commitments in say 2016, 2017, 2018, right? After McDonald's had that monumental commitment, a lot of the knock-on effect came from there. And then the Asian companies started to commit. So the Asian companies that are headquartered here, they had a later start, right? So I think at that time some groups gave them a longer runway. So commitments are due in 27, 28, and some in 2030. The ones that came in last year, they have up to 2035. So typically, I think it's interesting. Companies are the ones that set themselves this kind of deadline. Initially, it was I think McDonald's who said we need 10 years to transition our supply chain. So then it became accepted as okay, if McDonald's can do it in 10 years.

James:

We can do it. Yeah, that's cool. It's interesting. And then then maybe for the global ones that are due in 2025 or other ones around this period, like what is your sense of how how is progress? How many of them are on track? I guess how optimistic do you feel that the major players will be able to meet these commitments?

Dawn:

Every country is different. The level of maturity is different. In some countries, it's totally possible to do it now. Like you don't even have to wait until 2027. It's possible to achieve 100% this year.

James:

Which countries do those out of interest?

Dawn:

So countries like China, Philippines, Thailand, where my major producers already have K 3X, so there's a lot of supply available. And the price gap is not unaffordable. It it does cost more, but it's reasonable.

unknown:

Yeah.

Dawn:

And so it is possible if a company has the budget to do it, they can source for physical eggs. The main challenge is to do with like processed eggs, liquid eggs, egg powder, and that's not available yet. So you either import from US, Europe, or offset that using s, which we we develop that system, right? So and with that they can achieve 100% of their goals. Whereas for some countries where the price gap is slightly more like in Singapore, K3 can cost double or triple. It can be more challenging for companies to implement here if they don't have that bandwidth to adjust prices on the menu or pass on a cost to consumers, they may find it more difficult. So one of our the things that we do is to really work with them and see how we can work with suppliers and try to reduce that cost impact.

James:

Yeah. And the main reason for the price difference is because it's just like a lack of major producers have made the transition or supplying cage-free eggs, therefore the supply is just too constrained.

Dawn:

It's a chicken and egg situation. Yes, yes.

James:

I was gonna make that joke as well. I feel like I have to come out at some point.

Dawn:

The reason why it's expensive is uh there's a lot of reasons, you know. But one of the main reasons is that the volume is not high enough. You know, in once you have economies of scale, the cost of producing per egg can be lower. And when you have enough buyers also, the producers are not making losses, then they can charge less, afford charge less. So in Singapore, if you have only one farm doing cage-free and the volume is quite low, um, and the buyers are not buying because it's too expensive, unaffordable, then this farm cannot expand. So a bit of a uh conundrum. But fortunately, I think the demand is now increasing. There are more and more commitments coming in, so they're doing well. So prices eventually we've seen in say Thailand initially a few years ago, they had the similar problem. And now, you know, 20, 30% price gap is possible. Well, companies are saying, oh, it's 20-30%, it's easier to do. We can do it.

James:

Yeah, yeah.

Dawn:

Yeah.

James:

That's cool. Wait, and so then yeah, what happened in Thailand to break this dead law? Because yeah, I can imagine it's a real problem where you know producers don't want to start producing more because there's no demand, demand, uh buyers don't want to do it because it's too expensive. Then I how do you solve this kind of difficult problem?

Dawn:

Fortunately, there are enough buyers to give producers that signal to expand. And once you have the expansion going on, then you know the the prices just sort themselves out. But even in Thailand, it's not like without challenges still, because Thailand is fairly kind of length in terms of length, it's quite a distance. So you have most of the cage free producers in the central area. So the north and the south, like the beaches in Pukit and the north and mountains, you don't have enough K3 eggs. So there's still transportation logistics issues to solve, and we're hoping that with credits, you know, it will kick start that just add on to the expansion and help with the economies of scale. And also with producers succeeding in these areas, then the producers in the remote locations can be inspired to also make the change.

James:

With the companies that are may not on track to hit the 2025 deadlines for reasons of yes, like lack of supply or price, or maybe a lack of interest in some cases, I guess what are they saying about what they'll do? Like how much are you speaking with them? And are they saying, you know, yes, we're going as fast as we can, we think it'll be next year, or no, we can't do it. We need we need credits, or what kind of what are you hearing from those companies?

Dawn:

Some of the buyers are very serious in implementing their commitments. They have already achieved their target, you know, either 50% or more. Some are already at 100%. So definitely there are some that have sorted out internal implementation challenges. There are some that, you know, are still at the stage where they're finding it difficult to implement in certain parts. For example, liquid eggs, uh, remote locations, these are the areas where there's still some challenges. But fortunately, you know, if they're willing to consider credits, I think it can be resolved. They can still meet that commitment on time and lower the price impact.

James:

Can you say more about how the credits works? I hear because remember, we spoke with Jaya from also called Look with Partners some time ago, and he explained this. But I think this has uh grown even more since I guess we last spoke and companies are using this. But you just want to outline how the credit system works?

Dawn:

So it's uh similar to other offset systems, as in like you use you support or you financially incentivize producers to transition, but these may or may not be producers in your original supply chain, right? So if I'm uh say I have a hotel in Pukit and I need liquid eggs, and the producer in near Bangkok cannot deliver to me, I can still support cage-free production through credits. And the cost is the difference between cage and cage-free at the farm. So when I'm not paying for the transportation for the eggs to be sent to me, and also I don't need a minimum order. Because for liquid eggs, usually you need to push the button, the machine one time, you need one ton of eggs. That's 1,000 litres of eggs. So if the producer does it for you, the hotels are saying we don't have such a big fridge to store all eggs, right? So it can be very, very challenging. So in this way, the producer can collate the orders for that one ton from different buyers and run the machine, but not necessarily deliver to the produ to the buyer in Pukit. So from the producer's point of view, uh if it costs me, say, $150 to produce cage for eggs, if I had to deliver to you, I may have to charge you $2 because I can add on transportation costs.

James:

Yeah.

Dawn:

But if you buy credits from me, I will just sell these eggs uh to the buyer, to the market near me as cage eggs. I'll get $1 back. So technically I make a loss of the $50 cents, right? Cost me $150 to produce, I sell it for $1. So $50 would be my credit price.

James:

Got it.

Dawn:

So I get this $50 cents from a buyer located further from me, I get $1 from a buyer near me. So in the end, from a producer's point of view, I still get $150.

James:

Yeah, yeah.

Dawn:

But I also don't have to charge you $2.

James:

Interesting. And then, yeah, I think that this is um a very cool innovation you guys have done to get around this problem of yeah, whether it's liquid eggs or distance and geography. And I'm gonna give you a second how how does this like w what is the mechanism? Because I guess the ideal case is then maybe maybe for liquid or or for shell, they then they then end up sourcing the physical products from nearby. What's the I guess the mechanism where this can then translate into the physical sourcing? Like what's the pathway for them to go on next?

Dawn:

We have these problems because basically there's not enough volume of cage available. So this will incentivize the producer to produce more. Since I'm getting more orders, you know, RS are not avoiding placing orders because of all these issues. They're giving me the orders, I can expand. Once I expand, add on more barns, you know, I will solve this problem because then I have the economies of scale to run the machine. And once I have scale, it's cheaper to transport the eggs over long distance. If you send, say, 500 eggs, it will cost this much. If you send 5,000 eggs, it will also cost this much, right?

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Dawn:

So also logistics and economies of scale, it's just help to resolve this problem by making the cost per egg lower.

James:

Yeah, it makes sense. So yeah, so that is almost kind of like maybe you have this originally this one hotel near Puket that wants to do this and they have to do the cage food credits, but then maybe if there's like five or ten other hotels near Pukett, eventually that there's enough of them that maybe a producer nearby wants to then take all of their demand, or the person far eight will just ship it because now there's enough of them. But that's kind of the model for how this evolves. Is that right?

Dawn:

Yeah, yeah. And like Pukhev is one example, but there's another one that, funny enough, I just remembered it's uh an island near Singapore called Batam and Bintan. So they are Indonesian islands, but geographically they're closer to Singapore. So it's quite interesting. You have to look up Google Maps to see how it looks like. So it takes five days for the farm from Java near Batman to send the eggs all the way to Batam and Bing Tan. And the producer first packs the eggs, put it on a bus. The bus goes to the ferry, uh, goes to the ferry, goes to the port, goes on to all the way to the other port in bottom over five days, gets onto another bus, goes to the hotel. So that journey that the eggs take is incredible. Somebody should put a camera on an egg carton for each journey and speed it out, right? And uh then you can see that sometimes it arrives cracked. It may not be fresh anymore, they may be issues along the way. So some customers, some corporates are saying that we're willing to pay more, like double for the eggs to reach us. But they also want supply chain stability. They want to make sure that they get that eggs. They don't want the eggs to be cracked, they want eggs to be fresh. So it depends on what they actually want.

James:

Yeah. And then do you see any difference between, I guess, the global companies versus the Asian companies in terms of like their follow-through rates? Like is there enough of a uh like a sample size to notice any significant difference? Or do you think maybe the Asian ones, it's too soon to tell because their deadlines are maybe a few years later?

Dawn:

Kind of hard to say. I don't like to generalize because every company is different, but I do notice that corporates from certain markets are a little bit more serious about implementation and um that they actually investing in co-investing with the producers, they're buying the egg, they're achieving 100%. So I think these are the going to be the leaders, right? And if you check like ranking reports, you tend to see that particular countries tend to shine more. So it's not a matter of like whether it's a Western company or Asian company. Just depends sometimes on whether the direction comes from the top.

James:

Yeah.

Dawn:

Whether the CEO, whether the leadership is there to make sure that these pieces are in place so that policies can be implemented. Sometimes if the people on the ground are not even told that they have a commitment, then it can be very difficult. Sometimes we meet them and they're like, we have a commitment. Once in a while you still get that, right?

James:

Yes. I've heard that uh a few times of people talking to people who work in maybe uh a local branch of a global company, they go, No, we don't have this. And you show the website, they're like, Oh, I wasn't aware.

Dawn:

At some I heard that at some point they were like, Oh, uh if it's in English and not in our local language, then it doesn't count. But it's rare now. I think it's rare now. Coming to like 2025, more and more I think they are aware. They're just looking for solutions.

James:

I guess I'm curious which countries have surprised you either positively or negatively, and like how quickly they've gotten there. I think other ones where you think things have moved like relatively quickly over the last 10 years that you think there's like a like a pleasant surprise?

Dawn:

I was really, really surprised by Japan and Philippines. You know, like I've always known that, you know, in talking to farmers and also corporates in Thailand, they're very, very open. So Thailand, you know, they export a lot to Europe as well. Uh they're just very open to external influences and they they want to be like leaders in in this. So when you still start to talk to them already, they're like, okay, I think this is if this is the trend, if this is what the customer wants, we'll do it.

James:

Cool.

Dawn:

Um so it's been very, very easy. So no surprises there. Um in China as well, once the producers realize that the there's a demand, some of them went ahead to switch even before they have a contract with a buyer. So very entrepreneurial, very aggressive in terms of like embracing change. But Japan has always been a country where I really admire them for their diligence, their dedication. But change is a dirty word in Japan. Right? Well, change is something that maybe is not seen so positively. Yeah. And you have to use another word that replaces change in a more positive way, like, you know, improve or progress or something.

James:

Progress, yeah.

Dawn:

Something that they can like accept. Change is difficult. But I think that even then, you know, producers there are expanding, consumers there are more aware. And I think last year, Nikkei, Nikkei Asia did some collision of sales from retailers, and they found that sales increased 30% year on year for cage free in Japan. So that to me is tremendous. That consumers are actually aware, they're supporting, they're buying, sales are going up, producers are changing, companies are making commitments. It may be not the same as in the US. Some of these commitments are incremental commitments, but still, when they commit, they're very serious about implementing it.

James:

Nice.

Dawn:

Whereas like I think in Asia, face is everything.

James:

Yeah.

Dawn:

And reputation just matters a lot. So they're very serious in like making sure that they can do it before they commit. Some company tells it, let's commit and figure it out, right? But I think not in Japan. Figure it out, all the details are in place, then they announce.

James:

Yeah, yeah. I I've heard this as well, which I think I guess is maybe a positive thing that at least you know, if if they commit, they're a bit more serious about following through and they have a plan. So hopefully that there's less work later on to follow up and chase them and all this stuff.

Dawn:

Yeah. And the level of detail that they go into is something, something else, you know, something that I admire, but it's also very, very surprising. Like in meetings, you get send questions like pages long of questions when they go into the meeting.

James:

Yeah.

Dawn:

So you know they have really investigated, thought about it, um, looked through your your history, your background before they are willing to meet you. So the attitude that they take towards this, I I admire them. So so I'm really surprised that you know we've gotten as much progress as um we did in uh Japan. I feel very positive about that. Other countries can keep the same.

James:

Yeah, that's cool. That's very promising. It's good to know that there's a few positive role models. So very exciting.

Dawn:

But also Indonesia, because I think when I first started working on this topic, and others have tried, you know, working in Indonesia on various topics like beef cattle. I think there was some issue with slaughter, and so the Australian government through MLA sponsored some trainings as well. And so animal welfare is not a was not a new topic at that time, but laying hand welfare was. And we've always all of us thought that Indonesia is one of the hardest market to work in because more than other countries, they preferred engaging with locals.

James:

Yeah.

Dawn:

It's similar in Japan, but you know this concept of like foreigners coming in to tell them what to do.

James:

Yeah, yeah.

Dawn:

Um some more of an issue, I think, in Indonesia. And it's really hard to form partnerships and get things moving and like be sure that it continues to move after you leave.

Speaker 1:

Right.

Dawn:

So, but I think that's a country where we've seen tremendous progress in the past few years because um we have local teams now that understand local culture and also adapt the approach to you know local sensibilities. So a lot of progress in Indonesia. Now there's an association of K3 farmers. Now there's more than 10, not 11 farms certified in Indonesia, which I never thought would be possible within these few years.

James:

That's good, yeah. Because I think that's I think something that's also happened in China and also Indonesia, right? So that there's like what happens is there's becomes like a network or an association of K-3 farmers, and then is the plan that they almost support one another and support new people to join. And when you join, you become certified by like an independent body to make sure your standards are good and this is kind of how the snowball rolls down the hill.

Dawn:

Exactly, exactly. The they just kind of can organize themselves, you know, and support each other. So well, the they're not as competitive as what you see in in some other markets because the geography is so big, right? So they end up and the market is so big. So they're not as competitive, I notice. They're willing to help each other out.

James:

Nice. That's cool. Maybe on the backdrop of this, that this is like amazing. There's lots of examples and stories of producers and and buyers going towards K-3 and K3 demand increasing. But I guess behind this, is there like a general increase in egg consumption that is in some of these countries that is like greater than the K3 egg demand? So I guess we're not we're not yet close to filling the new egg demand, right? So I guess at the same time, egg production is still increasing in all these countries. Is that roughly right?

Dawn:

Yes. Consumption is increasing because I mean, this is a region where they're moving from developing economies toward economies, right? So more industrialization, more also more pastries, more cakes being consumed, uh, more bakeries. So overall it's surprising. Like Indonesia is another one. Like a few years ago, they were not near the top at all in terms of cons consumption. They were at maybe 55 eggs per year per person. Right. And now it's drastically changed. Um, a lot of them move into the middle class, they're educated and they also consume a lot of processed food. So egg consumption has gone up. So now they're in the top top 10.

James:

Yeah, yeah. Interesting.

Dawn:

In terms of consumption of eggs. In China, China as well, rapidly developing economy, huge cons consumer of eggs. So Ghanaian was number one together with Mexico.

James:

Yeah.

Dawn:

So so this change towards KH3, uh, I think it's in step with the rise in consumption of eggs. So overall number of laying hands is also increasing.

James:

Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, if you had to um, I guess kind of forecast, you know, to the extent you can over the next like five years, maybe to 2030, do you anticipate that we'll kind of kind of steadily keep increasing the number of K3 hands? Like, yeah, how do you think things will unfold over the next five years?

Dawn:

Unless there's policy change, we will have to still look at corporate commitments as the key driver of the movement. And if there are more like retailers or big producers making commitments, there's a chance that producers that are already catering, they feel more motivated to continue to expand their farm or convert to cage free. So that is happening. So it's hard to predict exactly what will happen, but that seems to be the trajectory, and more and more local companies, Asian companies are making the change. And often I think there's this misconception that Asians are like have different values towards animals than the West. I think Asia is a very, very big region, and uh the situation in every country is different. For example, in Singapore, if you go online to like say online supermarket and you look for cage rights, you will see people leaving reviews. And the reason why they are supporting this is because of ethical reasons. And whereas in some countries the conversation is still about like, is this healthier for me? You know, rather than about the animals. But I think that's gradually changing as societies become more and more affluent.

James:

Yeah, makes sense. Are there any other misconceptions that come to mind that maybe Western advocates have? About you know Asian cage free progress, whether it's a particular country or or the broad trend.

Dawn:

It's interesting because I think some people talk about how maybe the movement started with a similar approach. And I think in Asia maybe the approach can be a slightly softer approach, sometimes it works better. Maybe aggressive campaigning may or may not get the results that you had gotten in in the West. Sometimes a little push is enough to embarrass people into action rather than aggressive campaigning and that could backfire. I think the movement is still trying to find a sweet spot in terms of like how do you approach companies. I think I see that just conversations and softer campaigns sometimes can give you results.

James:

Nice. That's cool. Yeah, I definitely want to talk about the cultural differences in campaigning or like what's the right level of pressure which is needed for different companies in different countries. But maybe I guess a couple of questions on maybe the broad stuff before that. 2025 is a big year for deadlines and accountability. I'm kind of curious, like in terms of our priorities as a movement, like do you think m most of our efforts should be on enforcing some of the existing commitments to make sure we kind of build this initial supply chain, or do you like or how much value should we put on trying to get new commitments? I'm kind of curious on how you kind of split the efforts of maybe your time about or other people's time more generally.

Dawn:

You know, it's interesting to look at the informal versus formal market in each. In countries where they are less industrialized, most of the consumption is happening in the informal market. So the formal market, we have to actually look at which one has the volume to make the shift. Because ultimately, what created the shift in the US was because initially it was because McDonald's had 8% of uh the supply chain in the US and that you know cascaded the change. In EU, it was because of legislation. In Asia, you have some seats or legislation or labeling going on, but it will still be the corporates driving this change for the next few years. You really have to look at the informal market versus the formal market because a lot of countries, the consumption is still happening in the informal market. So you if you look at the formal market, who are the ones that have the most sway over the supply chain? These are the ones, you know, that will drive the change. Hopefully, you know, they will be part of the movement as more and more companies, you know, want to include that in their CSR and more and more investors also pay attention to this issue. But it's uh yeah, I think that would be what would drive the change in terms of volume.

James:

Yeah. So if I'm understanding you, it's something like implementation versus new commitments is maybe a less important question, but it's like you you find who in the formal market has you basically you just focus on the formal market and you try to get them first. And if they haven't committed, maybe to focus on getting them committed. And if they have committed, the focus should be on making sure they actually follow through. But the main thing is trying to get the formal market to move, and therefore it'll make it easier for everyone else, including the informal market. Is that kind of what you're saying?

Dawn:

That's right. And if the products are available on the shelves and consumers are more exposed to it, then you know, naturally people become curious. And when it's available, the change will start.

James:

Nice. Maybe now we can talk about this the stuff we touched on before, which is these kind of cultural differences in campaigning and you know how you know, quote unquote aggressive or or soft you should be pushing. What's been your experience with advocates starting these campaigns in Asia? Do you think they've kind of struck the right balance? Or and again, I guess this is also like very country-specific. Maybe in Japan you should be more soft. Maybe in some countries you you can be more aggressive. But I'm kind of curious, like, how do you think people have implemented these tactics so far?

Dawn:

It's it's interesting. They have just used different tactics, you know. Like, for example, in Indonesia, you can go on the street, you can protest. Government can even put out legislation, but enforcement will always be difficult. The nature of the landscape, you know, how big it is, how difficult it is to monitor progress. But if you come to, let's say, a country that's slightly more organized, like Singapore, it may be very, very hard to get the policies, but once you get it, enforcement is easier. And corporates here just take it more seriously and they will do it before the deadline. So it needs to be like the differences that you see in these countries. Uh, it's a little bit more like Japan, where it's a more uh serious kind of culture.

James:

Yeah.

Dawn:

People consider us maybe like the Germans of Asia. That's funny.

James:

That's a good analogy.

Dawn:

When Filipinos are like the Spanish of Asia, you know, because of they're more relaxed than you know, hanging out. But surprisingly, they they care a lot about these issues, you know. Consumers on average, they they do care. And corporates, when you speak to them, they're very open. So I've seen just just observing how groups approach companies, they've used different tactics, you know, sometimes just through dialogue and sometimes through online campaigning or street action, different different methods. And I find that in some countries where confrontation is seen as a negative, people feel uncomfortable with that kind of um street protests or campaigns. And I've even heard of cases where consumers come and approach the advocates and say, why are you attacking this company? It's a good company. So I think raising consumer awareness just takes a lot of time, takes a lot of effort. Groups are just trying different ways to see what actually works. So we need, I think, more innovative ways to bring that across. And it tends to be that a softer approach can work to a certain extent. Companies tend to be more willing to make incremental changes. So in some countries where maybe the supply is not available yet and the price gap is big, like asking for 100% may be more tough and they have more success asking for like a 10%, 20% commitment with actual volumes. And this is where I think we can learn from I think the shrimp movement. They were not going in to ask for 100% commitment. Yes. Asking for a commitment to a certain volume with parameters. So with certification, all that in place. I think that's quite smart and something that we can learn from.

James:

Yeah, yeah, that's a good point. And I think something that actually someone did, I think I was talking to someone who's involved in K3 in the UK, maybe I guess like, you know, maybe quite a long time, 10 plus years ago. And they were saying, you know, early on, we weren't asking for 100%. Like you said, we were asking for, you know, 20% or 30% or whatever. And then now our baseline has become you ask for 100%. And then if you're asking countries or people in countries where it's very new to do 100%, it can be quite hard. So it's like, yes, that is a good thing of a good question, is like maybe we should be asking for a bit less just to get the ball rolling and it's easier to build momentum this way. So yeah, that is a very important question.

Dawn:

The key part is the milestones, right? If you ask for less, but you have a glide path as to increase year on year, I think that gives producer a more a clearer signal as to whether these commitments will be implemented. Remember when I first started, when I was talking to producers, some of them were saying, I don't think these commitments will be implemented because I haven't heard anybody place the order yet. But that was also like maybe eight years ago, right?

James:

Yeah.

Dawn:

Coming to like this year and last year, producers were telling us that they are seeing the orders come in. Some of them have been motivated to expand. So at least for some of them, it has been that they were glad to be proven wrong.

James:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Dawn:

Yeah. I've been to events where they never thought that previously we would have disagreed on like the trajectory, and they were happy to be proven wrong. And they say, Oh, I didn't think that this would happen in my country, but it's happening.

James:

It's very cool. It's exciting. I think that's interesting on like on how much you should ask for. Maybe in some cases, actually, you you should ask for lower than what you want, just so you can kind of like build this momentum and show it produces demand. And there's the other question of like uh tactics, right? It's like not what you're asking for, but like how you're asking for this thing. And yeah, I think this is where maybe that there's been some you know questions on how aggressive should you be in like saying the company is doing something bad or tactics in terms of like protesting outside of their headquarters. And yeah, I guess I'm kind of curious because I've kind of heard different things on this. You know, some people say, you know, for example, Japan is a very like kind of polite, respectful culture, and you don't want to be super you know aggressive and in your face because maybe that will actually hurt your chances of progress. But but then some uh organizations have done this, maybe Open Wing Alliance with QP, which is a major, obviously, egg uh user as a mainnese company, I believe. And then that seems to have worked. So I guess I'm kind of confused as like, does it work with some companies, not with some companies, like could it actually make our our chances worse of success? But I'm kind of curious like how do you kind of reconcile these two things?

Dawn:

I guess there's no one size fit all, right?

James:

Yeah.

Dawn:

In some in some cases, the some companies, just the idea of like maybe just putting them, you know, in on a scorecard or ranking them, ranking report is enough to make them feel competitive. And they want to move up the tiers and they want to improve. Maybe not to the extent of making a commitment, but they do feel some pressure to improve. And some companies just that doesn't really work. So it depends on the individual country, the culture in each country. So in order to work here, we have to really spend time, you know, learning about the the culture in each country and how what makes these people click. Like what works in Singapore may not work in Indonesia, may not work in Japan. So it's very, very localized in that way. And then also the person that you're talking to when they're motivated, whether they're they are influential enough to convince their boss. Who is the the NGO in that company.

James:

Yeah, yeah.

Dawn:

Talking the right person is like sometimes you get lucky. Sometimes it's um like you do your research and get to the right person.

James:

Let's say you're in in like in the Philippines, you've done all the right things for the Philippines, the company still doesn't commit because the company doesn't want to maybe spend this extra 20, 30% getting the cage-free eggs. Do you think then doing something that is like a level more intense, let's say? Because like ultimately I think I think no one really likes being campaigned against in like an intense way or being called bad things. So I think in a way it's kind of the same for the world, but what do you think on like stepping up the pressure when companies aren't aren't still moving?

Dawn:

So we don't campaign, but I've definitely seen cases where these kind of like billboards or campaign, they work and they work very quickly. And I've also seen cases where you campaign for a year and it doesn't work. They're just dig their feet in and just plan to withstand the campaign. So it's very hard to predict. Like, you know, I've heard cases where companies have decided that we're gonna hold on for five years. Like no matter what you do, we will not talk to you. I just just hear from hearsay. But the moment the campaign started, they caved in. It's very hard to really predict like how much they care about the uh the pushback from consumers' reputation, you know. So it's case by case. Right luckily, you know, the uh it's a Japanese company, so they're sensitive to how they were perceived. Same in Thailand, you know, like you put like CP on a ranking table, you see them they want to improve incrementally. So sometimes softer tactics can work to a certain extent, but they may not get you the commitment.

James:

Yeah, yeah.

Dawn:

Right? You get the commitment often it requires a combination of different things and some process. I've definitely been in meetings where you know the first meeting and the boss says, We'll commit. And then you go down to talk to the procurement person. The procurement person says, Did the boss realize how much this will cost us?

James:

That's funny. I think it's funny that I think people often think it's like, you know, I just need to convince, you know, one person in a company, but obviously I've never worked directly in this work, but what I've heard is there there's many layers of people you have to convince, and there's often people inside trying to convince each other, and it's a very complicated mess of like who you actually have to influence and who has power.

Dawn:

Yeah. Yeah. It's it's like, you know, trying to influence policy as well. Sometimes if the person that you're engaging with leaves, and then you know, the it is like a totally new company that you're trying to engage with, right? Trying to find who's the next person to that's in charge of this. So that's no one size fit all. And luck is a certain there's an element of luck.

James:

Yeah.

Dawn:

I believe that.

James:

Yeah, for sure.

Dawn:

And of course, hard work, uh, being creative, trying different things, and keep trying until you succeed. So I think that's the beauty of overall that the movement. I think people know that it's hard, but they know they have to be creative. And what used to work may not work anymore, and you just have to come up with something new.

James:

Yes, definitely. Yeah, I agree. Innovation is very important. And I think luckily we have many creative and smart and innovative people, but I think we can always do more and have these out-of-box ideas. So yeah, I agree, that's very useful. How else do you think these kind of cultural differences come out of other ways? It happens in like in negotiation or other ways where you need to do something a bit different to maybe what you would do in the UK or the US?

Dawn:

I think in a lot of the Asian cultures, and everyone is different, of course, but in a lot of the Asian cultures, they don't like to say no and they don't like to confront, and they don't like to present something negative. So even when there is a no, they will nod their head, they will say yes, they will smile. So you can't leave the meeting thinking that you you did everything right, but actually there's some concerns there. So you have to watch out for micro signals as if. Like if you're at a meeting table and the person just like suddenly purse the lips or like lean back, you know, this is a body language that tells you there's something wrong and you have to tease it out, and it won't tell you. Sometimes you can ask, do you have any concerns? And no, no, everything is alright. So it's almost as if you have to guess. And the ability to guess comes from the deep understanding of the culture, having done your research, having a local person there that can read these micro signals, you know, and ask, are you concerned about A or B or C? And then when you hit the nail on the head, they'll tell it, yeah, I'm a bit concerned about that. So it's a little bit, I don't know whether it's similar. I don't see that in the West. People sometimes are very upfront. They'll tell you this work, you know. But if you're talking to the especially the older generation of Asians, they're a little bit more everything is fine on the surface. I will not say negative. Everything is a yes. Yes.

James:

Yes, yeah. I can imagine that's very hard. Yeah, because then maybe you leave thinking positive, and then maybe six months later you haven't heard anything back, you don't know why, nothing's changing, and actually you miss something. So yeah, that's quite like a subtle, challenging thing you have to do. It's like read someone's like face and body language and guess the right concern. So it sounds quite hard.

Dawn:

But if you're dealing with the younger generation, like people like maybe 30 and below 30-ish, they are more exposed to Western culture, pop music, you know, movies and stuff. So some of them are more upfront. They will communicate with you in a more direct way, but it's very different generation gap between that and maybe their parents, their uncles, you know.

James:

From the stories I've heard from other people doing it in like the US, yeah. The stories are very mixed people saying, like, oh yes, we're gonna do it, don't worry. We're not gonna tell you what we're gonna do, but it's gonna be great. And it's like very weird, like kind of maybe similar. It's like, it's all fine, don't worry about me, you do something else. But I think that's like a different level of trying to get you off my case in like a nice way or something.

Dawn:

Yeah, yeah. And even when there's a no, often, you know, when there's a no, the no is said with a smile. So, you know, it meetings are often very positive. I've never been thrown out of a meeting before.

James:

That's a good sign.

Dawn:

That's a good sign. So even when like it's how it's very difficult, uh, even if they're upfront with you, they're always very polite. So I think that's just how it is over here. People just want to not antagonize each other.

James:

Well, I think maybe we we can wrap up the stuff on K3 and Asia and all the important work you guys and partners and the other groups are doing. So I guess thank you for all that. And this has been super, super interesting. I feel like I've learned a lot, especially, and I hope others will too. Maybe like one slightly different question before we do our classic closing ones is you know, at the beginning you spoke about the need for patience you feel like being quite important and change takes time. And I'm kind of curious, like, how do you kind of like manage yourself despite you working the movement for 10 years and hopefully going to work on it for much longer? Like, how do you kind of pace yourself and make sure you feel happy and motivated and recharged as you keep going?

Dawn:

We have a good memory. Patience and persistence are the number one uh ingredients to do this work. And I think meditation helps, you know, being mindful and practicing self-care. Um, we're very fortunate to have some training on how to prevent burnout, but is to recognize those micro signs that you are maybe nearing burnout and you have to do a lot of self-care so that it can stay course and not get exhausted. Don't work weekends, don't work nights, you know.

James:

Yes.

Dawn:

Having a meditation practice, having a spiritual practice definitely helps you be able to be more aware of your emotions and not react, you know, in meetings and be able to handle rejection when often it is hard. You know, some companies, some producers, they may think this is the right thing to do, but they have genuine difficulties. So being able to empathize with them and take a pause before you say anything, I think that has been really, really helpful for me. Yeah, yeah, and not take it personally.

James:

Nice. Yeah, I think it's something similar to that Vicky Bond said in our last uh episode, which was you know, it also allows her to um face setbacks without a huge negative reaction. She kind of experiences some loss in it. She said maybe 10 years ago she would have you know been freaking out and super stressed, and she goes, Oh, no, this is bad. Then rather than the panic, it's maybe a a feeling of what can I do about it without all the negative sentiments that maybe make it hard to think clearly. So yeah, I think I also agree. It's like, yeah. But yeah, I I think what you said is super important. I think yeah, this being able to not react to things in like a very strong and negative way helps you think about, I guess, how to respond more skillfully, whether it's in a meeting, you know, whether whether you can, you know, make sure you respond to the person with kind of empathy and and and a good response. And Vicky Bond in our in our last episode also mentioned similar that now when she has kind of negative news or maybe setbacks in her work, you don't react so negatively and you can think maybe more clearly on on how to focus on that. So I agree. I think meditation has been a big part of my practice, and yeah, it definitely helps me navigate some challenging things. So yeah, I totally agree that this is a valuable thing for people to look into and try out and see if it works for them.

Dawn:

Definitely.

James:

Well, this has been very interesting and fun. So I think that there's always like three last questions I want to ask you. And the first one is what's one bit of news that you've been excited about or grateful to hear recently, ideally related to animals?

Dawn:

We haven't made it official yet, but of course we have already, you know, have some customers for. Credits, but there's a company that just plays a very big order for credits. So that would be a big driver to get producers to expand and give them the confidence that there are people that are seriously wanting to implement that policy. So I'm very excited about that. I hope we can make it official very soon.

James:

That's cool. I hope by the time this comes out it's official and we can link, or maybe I can mention it at the beginning. But yeah, that's very exciting to hear that the credits are taking off. Yeah, I think playing a really important role in in the K3 ecosystem. The next thing is what are some media recommendations you'd have for listeners? It could be for uh books on any topic, podcasts, articles, whatever you think would be is useful for you.

Dawn:

I think I tend to like just listen to lots of things, whatever catches my attention on sustainability, on animal welfare, on diverse topics. Um but one book I've been reading recently I thought was interesting, uh, is by Jason Hickel. It's called Less Is More, How Degrowth Will Save the World. I thought it makes a lot of sense that we should prioritize our well-being, and maybe there's some changes in the economy that downsizes and not focuses on growth as much. And we can consume less. And I think that's the key to helping animals as well, and just having a more equitable economy for all of us.

James:

Nice. Yeah, I think definitely it would help some of our animal welfare issues, that's for sure. I agree. And then maybe the final question is how can people get more involved in your work or follow the work that Global Food Partners are doing?

Dawn:

Please feel free to follow us on our LinkedIn. We post very regularly on LinkedIn, and that's where you get all the latest news. And feel free to contact us, you know, if you have any ideas or you just want to chat about collaborations. Happy to hear from you.

James:

Nice. And actually, maybe I'll plug that. You guys also have a podcast, which I've listened to a few episodes of, which is also really good.

Dawn:

We did? That's great.

James:

Yeah. Yes. Lizzie talks and companies that are making impressive progress. And I guess there are challenges. I think people want to learn more about the ins and outs of companies and how it's going for them. I would highly recommend that. And we'll link that below as well.

Dawn:

Perfect. Thank you.

James:

Well, I guess that that's all, Tom. So I guess thank you again so much for I guess all the work you've been doing over the last 10 years. And we're very lucky to have you in the movements. And yeah, looking forward to all the work you guys will be doing over the next period as well.

Dawn:

Thank you so much, James, and uh very glad to be part of this today.