00:09 - Katie Fenske (Host)
Hello, hello, and welcome back to another episode of the Burnt Pancakes podcast. I am your host, katie Fenske, and each week I am here to remind moms that everyone burns their first pancake. Today, I'm sitting down for a momversation with a mother-son duo. I'm speaking with Lynn and John Greenberg. They are going to come on and talk to us about dyslexia. John was diagnosed with dyslexia when he was seven and he's going to share what that experience was like, and Lynn's going to talk to us a little bit about what she experienced going through this with her child.
00:45
Their story is incredible and, as a former classroom teacher, I will say that there was zero training in dyslexia and how to recognize it. So many times I probably thought that there's maybe a child going through my class that has it and I just don't have the tools to help them. Hearing their story and hearing how Lynn advocated for her son is really inspiring. This also led them to create a children's book together. They are co-authoring a book called Robbie, the Dyslexic Taxi and the Airport Adventure, and their story is just so inspiring and sweet, so I cannot wait for you to enjoy this one with me. Okay, john and Lynn, welcome to the podcast, hi thanks for having us.
01:30
I'm very excited. This is my first mother-son duo on the podcast, so this will be really fun. What a great idea. So let's hear a little bit about your stories, john, tell us a little bit about your experience growing up with dyslexia.
01:44 - Jon Greenberg (Guest)
Yeah, well, it was challenging at first. Before we knew that I was dyslexic, there was a lot of discomfort for me and overall unpleasantness. A lot of teachers and even some kids they didn't really give me the time of day, they said I was slow, they said I was tired, I was a boy. They didn't really give me much credit and that really impacted how I viewed myself afterwards, and so it wasn't until I got tested and then I found out I was straightforward dyslexic and frankly, that made me feel a lot better to know that I wasn't just dumb or slow like people were calling me. So it still was a little confusing because I didn't at the time really understand what it meant to be dyslexic. But now I sort of view it as a bit of a superpower of sorts, because it got me to this point in my life where I'm able to create art, because, while I couldn't read or write, the main way I was able to express myself was through art, and so doing that has really been a boon to me.
03:10 - Katie Fenske (Host)
I love that. What age were you when you got diagnosed? Seven, I believe. Okay, so that they did catch it. Because I was a teacher in the classroom for 11 years and I taught outside the classroom and I will tell you from my college experience getting my teaching credential all the classes I took, all the years I taught, never once was I given training on how to recognize dyslexia and I guarantee there are plenty of kids that probably went through the system that never got a diagnosis. So I guess, lynn, you can probably speak to this a little bit more. What made you? Did you have to pursue it? Did a teacher talk to you about it? What steps did you take?
03:53 - Lynn Greenberg (Guest)
So I think and you know, john is, you know, almost 25. So I hope things are a little different, but I have a feeling that maybe they're not, because I think, you know, teachers are, are expected to know so much and unfortunately, even the teachers that are, you know, for learning differences, you know there's so many under that category we can't possibly expect them all to understand what's going on. And in John's case, everyone who came in contact with him is blaming him instead of you know, like he said, you know they would say well, any slow, he's a boy, you know. That's the problem All the stereotypes.
04:38
Total, stare, total. And I, john is my youngest of four and I know everyone has a different learning style, but he just wasn't, you know, learning the way I expected him to, within a certain you know set of parameters. He could tell me every time is the tank engine's name, but not that. Tom has started with the letter T and you know he didn't want to sing the ABC song, he didn't want to watch Sesame Street. He, just, he, just I knew he was really smart but there was just some disconnect. So I started reading a little bit and I have a good friend who's a pediatrician. I was asking. And finally I gave up on the school system and found someone to privately test him. And you know, as John said, classic turned out he was classic dyslexic.
05:26 - Katie Fenske (Host)
It was not hard to know.
05:30 - Lynn Greenberg (Guest)
No, super smart and just needed to learn how to read differently.
05:34 - Katie Fenske (Host)
Yeah, so what are some of the assessments or tests, like what I'm. John, do you even remember when you went through the testing what it was like?
05:42 - Jon Greenberg (Guest)
From what I remember and it was a while ago there were mostly aptitude and sort of memorization trying to decide, trying to figure out what I could and couldn't do. There are. Some of them were very basic. I remember I had to just do memorization games not games, but like tests and others were a little more complex and involved, sort of like looking at a lot to a certain degree. I don't know what it's like now, I don't know if it's changed at all or stayed mostly the same, but I remember it took about. It took about a week of testing, right just to remember, if I remember correctly.
06:34 - Lynn Greenberg (Guest)
So, yes, so when, when children are younger, the person we were fortunate enough to find felt that it was very hard for a child to just sit still for like a day or two and go through the testing. So she did some testing and then waited, you know, a day or two, did some more testing so that John wasn't overwhelmed, and after the diagnosis, to keep his, to keep his diagnosis, so that he could have extra time on tests and things like that. He had to get tested every three years, I think it was so that he could keep his, his title, his rights, so that he could have extra time. And this time went on, you know. You know, as kids get older, they need to take not just the tests in school, but, you know, drivers, drivers has all that stuff. And so we had, we had the category and the classification so that he could keep it.
07:37
But you know, unfortunately again, the school system, the public school system, did not want to do that. So, you know, we were fortunate enough that we could find someone to help us, but if you don't fight for what you, and if you, unfortunately, if you, you know, have trouble paying for things like this, it's a huge fight and we just made a collective family decision to really help figure all this out. And you know his older siblings, my husband, you know his father, we all, we all just made a collective decision that we were going to going to take care of this as a family.
08:18 - Katie Fenske (Host)
So I bet getting that diagnosis was kind of a relief, though, like okay, now we have an answer to why this has been so hard. Like I know of dyslexia I think of flipping letters when you're writing and memory. Are there other things that parents could look out for that could help identify dyslexia?
08:40 - Lynn Greenberg (Guest)
So I definitely and John can obviously speak to this more than I can but I think it's really important because kids who are dyslexic are often off the charts, you know, very smart. They can also have comorbidities, they can have ADHD, they can have other other diagnoses that might make it difficult for them to learn. You know, sitting quietly at a desk, but we don't always as a society acknowledge that. Yeah, so I think you need to listen to your child and the verbal and the nonverbal cues, like John would memorize a story and sort of pretend that he was reading along and if I had known better, you know I would have understood that he was reading it.
09:36 - Katie Fenske (Host)
But also kind of like your survival, your how you adapted to what school was expecting. Oh, that's interesting.
09:45 - Lynn Greenberg (Guest)
Yeah, but you know, then he would he would, you know, get up in the middle of class and sort of act out and everyone was, you know, upset with that. And I thought this is, there's something going on. He's telling me in his own way that he's upset and that he's frustrated because he's he's a good kid and he normally wouldn't want to be disruptive.
10:06
Right, and that's you know, all of these clues were things that led me to find, to get the to look for the diagnosis Right, and then that was like with my three boys.
10:17 - Katie Fenske (Host)
I, now that I have my own kids, even more so. I'm like school is not made for children, like, especially boys, the fact that we're making them sit for so long and, like so many kids you know, have ADHD. Now, if you have them out in the woods, you know, running around, they would never show this behavior quote unquote behavior problems. That's because we're sticking them indoors in a classroom for so long. Yeah, of course you're going to see that.
10:48 - Lynn Greenberg (Guest)
Oh yeah, totally agree. You know we need to sort of adapt. There are so many different learning styles not just for children with learning differences, but just in general. You know we all learn differently and I think you know this goes back to the conversation of they're just too many kids in a classroom for a teacher you know, and we just don't value teaching and we need to.
11:15 - Katie Fenske (Host)
Yeah, my son is in kindergarten and he has 30 kids in his class with one teacher, no aid. And you're like, how, like, how is that? And can you imagine throwing a kid in there with dyslexia, with ADHD? Like how does the teacher even have time to recognize that? No, it's just, they don't. It is so props for you to like, for taking it upon yourself, like feeling that mom, gut, knowing something's not right. John, do you have like memories of what it was like being in the classroom and just going? I don't get, I can't do this.
11:49 - Jon Greenberg (Guest)
Well, yes, when I was in class, there was a strong sense of frustration, especially when I was trying my best at everyone else just zooming along shall we say.
12:04
It wasn't until after the diagnosis that things started to make a little more sense. I did at my original. I was at public school, had a person to help with special needs students, but I don't remember this, but I remember my mom mentioning this. Later on that teacher came up to her and said we do not have the resources to probably help you. I'm saying this off the record, right.
12:38
And you know so after that I ended up, we found a school that was specifically meant to teach dyslexic children. They used a specific teaching style and also they had fewer students in a class, like you're saying, 30 students one class. It was for us more like. I think the top was 10.
13:02 - Katie Fenske (Host)
Okay.
13:03 - Jon Greenberg (Guest)
And usually the teachers had assistance. There's a specific style. I think it was the.
13:09 - Lynn Greenberg (Guest)
Orton Gillingham method.
13:12 - Jon Greenberg (Guest)
And so I was really lucky in that respect. I also say, though, that it was a family decision, and they had to talk about it because it was a private school and cost money. I mean a long way to get there.
13:30 - Katie Fenske (Host)
It's not like you're at the same school as all your siblings one easy drop off. It's a sacrifice. Do you remember specifically what are some strategies that they did differently to help you learn?
13:45 - Jon Greenberg (Guest)
Yes, well, first off, they made us learn how to write in cursive, which I know that a printing. Say it.
13:55 - Katie Fenske (Host)
So instead of printing, you did cursive.
13:58 - Jon Greenberg (Guest)
Yes.
13:58 - Katie Fenske (Host)
That's interesting.
14:00 - Jon Greenberg (Guest)
So something about the way the loops look and how they're all interconnected. It makes for different connections in your brain. Interesting. I'm not qualified to give the scientific research, Okay, do you still write in cursive.
14:22 - Lynn Greenberg (Guest)
I know how to, but I don't have much to need to Well.
14:28 - Katie Fenske (Host)
maybe you've learned like you've I wouldn't say grown out of your dyslexia, but you've learned to adapt and maybe you've mastered different areas.
14:39 - Jon Greenberg (Guest)
We call it being remediated, because you can't get rid of dyslexia. It's always going to be a big thing, but you can overcome it in a way that you're able to interact, quote unquote, normally with the rest of the world.
14:56 - Katie Fenske (Host)
Right, well, you're in grad school now, right now. So of course, right, you've done well.
15:02 - Jon Greenberg (Guest)
Well, not in mathematics, though I do feel like telling you.
15:05 - Katie Fenske (Host)
Okay, so what subjects were particularly challenging for you?
15:10 - Jon Greenberg (Guest)
Well English and reading, and I think I also have a little bit of this Calcula. We never got that fully tested, but you throw a set of numbers in front of me then four digit, three digits, and I'm freezing up.
15:27 - Katie Fenske (Host)
Because, like when you see that number, you can't like remember the order. Does it in your mind look different?
15:35 - Jon Greenberg (Guest)
It's not as much that, it's more like I just don't understand how certain things can cross over, multiply and there's a lot of memorization and even though dyslexic children are known for memorizing things, I don't know why just numbers seem like completely different language to me.
15:58 - Katie Fenske (Host)
But we're oh, go ahead.
16:00 - Lynn Greenberg (Guest)
No, I was gonna say often kids who are dyslexic also do have trouble with math, although some go on to be great engineers and and, and you know, some have trouble writing. They're just things that sort of you know. It's like a graph, like there are different things that sort of hit and coexist together. And for John and a lot of the kids he went to school with, numbers were also a problem, and at the time the school really did not address that as much, but now now they do, because everyone was complaining about the fact that yeah they're like okay great, they can read it, so amazing.
16:38
but two plus two is not five, like let's figure this out too.
16:42 - Katie Fenske (Host)
But that's pretty common in dyslexia right to have trouble with just basic arithmetic.
16:48 - Jon Greenberg (Guest)
Yeah, I'll say just a few of the students who I went to school with during that time. I know one of them does acting and another does aeronautic engineering. Oh very different mix of here and there.
17:05 - Katie Fenske (Host)
Right, yes, so, like your message is, this doesn't have to stop you from doing what you love. What were some things that, maybe because of your dyslexia, you excel? That is there, anything like you explored other areas, or anything like that.
17:22 - Jon Greenberg (Guest)
Yes, this is sort of why I called it my superpower, because without it I wouldn't have really gotten involved in the art world like I did when I was younger. I, as I, you know, I couldn't read, but I was sort of drawn to picture books because I could sort of get a basic gist of the story. What is Pete the cat here? He's carrying a fish. Okay, I can kind of figure this out. And so that sort of made me want to express myself not with words but with art, and so I drew a lot on printer paper and pretty much anything else I could find, and that sort of progressed. Even after I was remediated I found myself enjoying that and to the point of wanting to connect my new found love of reading and writing with that. So if I hadn't been dyslexic, I don't really know. I don't think I'd be where I am now if not for it.
18:25 - Katie Fenske (Host)
That's so interesting, like a way to take something that's considered negative and turn into a positive yes, so I guess that could lead us to. How did the two of you team up to write a children's book?
18:39 - Lynn Greenberg (Guest)
So during COVID, you know, we did baking a lot of it. But then we decided John was home from college and he was an art major and it's very hard to do art virtually, so he had a lot of downtime and at the same time I was also reading on FaceTime to my grandchildren and so we started sort of throwing around the idea of we should write a kid's book. And what started as a sort of a joke, you know, sort of started to formulate into a real idea. And you know what would that character look like? And you know John loved cars and trains and things as a child.
19:25
So we thought a car would be good. And what would happen if that car couldn't read the signs and was lost? How would that car figure out how to get from here to there? And we started. That's how we did the book and John's artwork is amazing and we co-authored it and he did all the pictures. And so from there I have a good friend who is a book designer and I showed her and I said what do you think? And she's like it's adorable. So she helped us package it into a real book. And you know, here we are. So Yay there it is.
20:04
Okay, and those are all your illustrations yes.
20:07 - Katie Fenske (Host)
That's so cool, so you had. Did you have to self publish, or is that the route we?
20:14 - Lynn Greenberg (Guest)
took. We decided because we started asking and while we had a very positive response to the idea, I think a lot of people were not just baking but writing stories during COVID and they said you know, you could wait and you could try to find an agent, but you probably do better self publishing.
20:35 - Katie Fenske (Host)
That's awesome, and if that's an option, now why not Right?
20:39 - Lynn Greenberg (Guest)
Exactly and that was. It's been a definite learning experience, but that's what we decided to do and we'll see. We have some potential interest at some publishing houses, but we're not averse to doing this. It's been a real fun adventure for us.
20:55 - Katie Fenske (Host)
So, Do you have an idea for a second book? Are you thinking about doing more? Because this one, the character, is kind of your story and kids with dyslexia can relate to it. Do you have any other ideas? It maybe they could be secret or Go ahead Johnny.
21:15 - Jon Greenberg (Guest)
All I'll say is we definitely do, and we want to try focusing around other forms of neurodiversity, specifically light things like dyscalcula or ADHD or, well, any of those written.
21:33 - Katie Fenske (Host)
Yeah, I love that.
21:35 - Lynn Greenberg (Guest)
We decided so. Robbie works at the Creative Cab Company, so it's going to be the Creative Cab Company. It's going to be a whole series.
21:43 - Katie Fenske (Host)
Oh, I love that. Yeah, Because the title is what's the title of the first book?
21:48 - Lynn Greenberg (Guest)
The first book is Robbie, the dyslexic taxi and the airport adventure.
21:53 - Katie Fenske (Host)
So cute.
21:54 - Lynn Greenberg (Guest)
And Robbie. Yeah, robbie has a usual way of going and then needs to change his plan one day and go a different route. And how is he going to figure that out? Which?
22:04 - Katie Fenske (Host)
for some kids that are used to their structure and routine, that is also a challenge that they have to get out of the comfort zone. Oh, that is awesome. Well, I love this. Can you tell us where we can find your book?
22:17 - Lynn Greenberg (Guest)
Yeah, so you can buy it on Amazon. Also, we have a website where you can find it. Some of the local you know bookstores if you go in they can order it through bookshoporg. We're working on getting it into different places. We're on social media, so if people have questions, we are at the creative cab company and so is the website. They can DM us or contact us and we're happy to answer any questions you know about what I'm on social media pushing our book.
22:51 - Katie Fenske (Host)
I love it.
22:53 - Lynn Greenberg (Guest)
Thank you, you know work in progress.
22:57 - Katie Fenske (Host)
So great. Okay, so before we wrap up, let's start with John. Can you give, like, any words of advice for kids right now that are in your shoes back when you were seven?
23:11 - Jon Greenberg (Guest)
I would say don't think you're any less than what you are. I know there are probably a lot of people out there that are telling you you're less and that can hurt. I realize that. But know that you are special, you are smart and you don't have to be what everyone says you are and as long as you find a group, be it family or friends, that will stand by you, they'll be your rock. For me, that was my family for you. Whatever you find, stick with it.
23:52 - Katie Fenske (Host)
I love that. Okay and Lynn, what about words of advice for parents that have children that are struggling with dyslexia?
23:59 - Lynn Greenberg (Guest)
Find your people you know in your community. If it's not in school, if it's out in your community or on social media. We've found so many Facebook groups that we're now a part of that. We communicate with and you know, find your people really, no matter what that means, just find other people you can talk to for your sake, for your kids' sake. It's really helpful and, I think, very important. Go with your gut and honor what your child is telling you and not telling you and find your people.
24:35 - Katie Fenske (Host)
Love that. I love what you guys have done and I can't wait to see how much more success you guys have.
24:42 - Jon Greenberg (Guest)
Thank you.
24:43 - Lynn Greenberg (Guest)
Thank you, and thank you so much for having us. Yeah, it's been a pleasure, it's been really wonderful talking to you.
24:47 - Katie Fenske (Host)
Yeah, thank you. Well, anyone who has kids needs to run out and go buy that book. I think it is such a wonderful story, and the fact that they co-authored the book and, you know, published it is really inspirational for me, and really learning more about dyslexia and what someone's actually going through was very eye-opening. I learned that one in five people can suffer from dyslexia and it affects lots of areas of their life, from their memory to reading, to problem solving. So knowing kind of the behind the scenes of what someone's going through is really important, and so for kids that aren't suffering from dyslexia or ADHD, to read a book and discover what maybe their classmates are going through is also very important. So run out, go to Amazon, get this book and spread the word. I love this idea. So I've got some more conversations coming up next week, so remember to subscribe and follow this podcast, and I will see you again next Friday for another mom conversation.