48. "Not Tonight Honey: Why Women Actually Don’t Want Sex and What We Can Do About It" with Courtney Boyer

Ever find yourself tiptoeing around the topic of sexual desire? Courtney Boyer, the mental health and sex therapist, is here to walk us through the intimate labyrinth of womanhood and motherhood, where the conversation is overdue. 

On this momversation, we're peeling back the curtain on the realities of waning sexual interest, the journey of reclaiming that fire, and the tools necessary for fostering a sex-positive environment in our families. From the conservative to the empowered, Courtney's personal evolution serves as an inspiring backdrop for our candid discussions on marriage, parenting abroad, and the importance of love-based guidance over shame.

As our heart-to-heart unfolds, we're tearing down myths about sexual intimacy and expectations within relationships, emphasizing that it's not about the quantity but the quality of connections. We introduce you to the idea of a "relationship audit"—an invaluable strategy for couples to regularly assess their satisfaction in both their sexual and emotional bonds. Our chat navigates the tricky waters of body image, life changes, and menopause, reminding us that our sexual desire is an evolving journey, one that can indeed flourish with age and self-love. This episode is a testament to the powers of communication, understanding, and the dedicated effort to foster a fulfilling sexual partnership.

Lastly, we acknowledge the importance of embarking on these potentially challenging conversations, as they are key to growth and empowerment. We're determined to offer a fresh perspective on educating our young ones about sexuality, inclusivity, and the various relationship models, all within the family fold and beyond. So, gather 'round and join in as we bring these vital topics to the table. Your thoughts and connections fuel the Burnt Pancakes community, and I am eager to hear how this episode resonates with you. Share, engage, and let's continue to light up these essential discussions with the warmth and grace they deserve.

You can connect with Courtney here:

Instagram: @courtneyboyercoaching

Website: www.courtneyboyercoaching.com

Books: Not Tonight, Honey: Why women actually don't want sex and what we can do about it https://amzn.to/3wfGoR9

Check out here Huffington Post article: https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/relationship-expert-reveals-the-10-questions-you-should-ask-your-partner-every-december_uk_656dc9d1e4b07b937ff56189

📺 Watch the episode on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLOpw5ui4uxJHx0tLFVtpnfSkpObfc4d-K

You can find Katie at:
website: burntpancakes.com
YouTube: @burnt.pancakes
Instagram: @burntpancakeswithkatie
Email: katie@burntpancakes.com

🚽 Did you know Katie is also a Certified Potty Trainer? 🚽

☎️ Schedule a 1:1 chat today: Schedule Here
💻 Digital Potty Training Course HERE
📖 Potty Training E-Book HERE
🆓 FREE potty training resources HERE
Instagram: @itspottytime
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Transcript

00:09 - Katie Fenske (Host)
Hello, hello and welcome back to the Burnt Pancakes podcast. I'm your host, Katie Fenske, and here to remind you that everyone burns their first pancake, so just keep flipping On today's mom conversation. I have Courtney Boyer. She is a mental health and sex therapist and life coach. She's also a mom of three and author of the book Not Tonight Honey why Women Actually Don't Want Sex and what we Can Do About it. 

00:37
So this is the episode that you want to pop in your earbuds and listen without your littles around, because we're talking about sex, we're talking about marriage, we're talking about your postpartum body and not wanting it. We're talking about how to open up to your partner about sex, and we're also talking about how to talk to your kids about sex. We kind of go all over this topic, but it's really something that so many women, I think, don't hear or afraid to talk about and maybe could get something out of this podcast. So I'm really excited to share with you my mom conversation with Courtney. Courtney, welcome to the podcast. Hi, katie, thank you for having me. I'm very glad you reached out to me, because this is a topic that I think needs to be talked about and I will admit like I'm a little bit. I might blush today. This is not something I generally talk about, but that was the point of my podcast was to bring up conversations that moms need to hear. 

01:38 - Courtney Boyer (Host)
And I think this is a good one. 

01:39 - Katie Fenske (Host)
So, to start us off, introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about your three kids, how old they are. 

01:46 - Courtney Boyer (Host)
Okay, so I am a relationship and sexuality expert and I'm also the author of Not Tonight Honey why Women Actually Don't Want Sex and what we Can Do About it. I am a mom to three kiddos. They are 10, 12 and 14. 

02:00 - Katie Fenske (Host)
Oh, okay, so you're in that, like preteen teen girls and boys. 

02:04 - Courtney Boyer (Host)
You both. My oldest two are girls and my youngest is a boy. 

02:07 - Katie Fenske (Host)
Oh, how fun. And I just learned that you're in Germany, so you're raising them abroad. You grew up here, though, in the United States. I did. I grew up in Seattle, in the south of Seattle. How long have you been in Germany? Four and a half years, oh gosh, how awesome. Yeah, what a fun experience for them. Yes, they love it. 

02:23 - Courtney Boyer (Host)
At first they did not, but now they do. 

02:25 - Katie Fenske (Host)
Did you have to when you first moved? Was it like pulling them from school here? 

02:32 - Courtney Boyer (Host)
So we moved in the summertime and it was the youngest. Two were okay, they had just finished kindergarten and second grade, but my oldest had just finished fourth and so she had the hardest time. That's a big deal. I really struggled with it, yeah. 

02:45 - Katie Fenske (Host)
So you're like a mom doing the mom stuff. Doing the mom stuff, yes, okay, but you're also your title is you're a sex therapist, a life coach, a rakey practitioner. How did you get into this Like, is this something you've always been interested in, or have you? 

03:00 - Courtney Boyer (Host)
developed, let's see. So, growing up like I wanted to be a lawyer, I was just super like yes, that's what I want to do. I want to help people and I want to argue. I love to argue, as my parents would say. 

03:13
And so I went to college and my sophomore year I took a gender politics and law class and that just totally changed my life and it really helped me to understand a lot of women's plights and sexual frustrations and just treatment in general. And I had grown up in the church also. So I grew up in the evangelical Christian church and was raised very steeply in the purity culture, so like no sex before marriage, purity rings, the whole thing and really in college started to look at those beliefs and try to understand like the long-term effects of them and the harm that it was doing to even women in their 20s. And I got married young, at 22, and was not the fairytale experience that I thought it was going to be, and so I think I just was like I want to help women understand that the messages that we're getting are lies and they're harmful and unfair. 

04:12
And so I went to graduate school and got a master's in education in human sexuality and worked as a sexuality educator for a little bit and then people would come up to me and ask me these really personal, you know deep questions. A lot of them around, like is this normal? And I just I wasn't skilled to answer that. So I was like you know what? I'm going to go back to school and get another master's and got one in mental health counseling and worked as a mental health and sex therapist and just kind of, you know, made my way to coaching and being an author and yeah, that's where I'm at. 

04:48 - Katie Fenske (Host)
Like life just points you in different directions. Was it hard, since you did grow up in the church? Was it hard for you like to tell your family like this is what I'm studying now, or yes and no? 

05:00 - Courtney Boyer (Host)
So my dad was a private investigator who specialized in child sexual abuse allegations. So I had very much grown up like in two very dichotomous cultures like this, like we don't talk about sex. It's bad, it's wrong, you save it for marriage and the one that you love, and then the evils of sex and like how kids are violated and mistreated. And I mean honestly. I started working for my dad when I was 14, which as a parent, that's not a great thing to have your 14 year old exposed to, but it just it was just normal to me to like type interviews that he would have and be very much a part of this sexuality world, but not at the same time. So they weren't really surprised but disappointed because they didn't think I could make as much money being a therapist and being a lawyer. 

05:50 - Katie Fenske (Host)
Did you actually go through? Because you said you were interested in being a lawyer? Did you go to law school or? 

05:55 - Courtney Boyer (Host)
No, I did not, I chose to like. It was at the point where I was supposed to take the LSATs and I was like I'm not, I can't do it Like, I just. I remember coming to my dad and I was sobbing. He probably thought I was going to tell him that I was pregnant, but I was like I don't want to go to law school. 

06:09 - Katie Fenske (Host)
I just yeah, it's like I have to break it to you. I do. I'm so sorry your dream is crushed. Okay, but that's interesting that you've had to the like two juxtapositions, like the church teachings and what your dad did. Do you find that you're like now kind of that you that put you in the middle ground where you kind of see both sides of that? 

06:33 - Courtney Boyer (Host)
Yeah, I feel like a lot of my life has been that way, like I'm an American living in Germany and I don't really fit into either category in terms of like a real American living abroad, and I'm definitely not German so, but I love, but we love living here and making our life here, you know. So, yeah, there's definitely a lot of things where I felt where nothing really fits and so I just kind of create my own. 

06:56 - Katie Fenske (Host)
I love that because I think a lot of us might feel that way, but we don't know how to express that or to like navigate that. Okay, so your book is called Not Tonight Honey Women why women actually don't want sex and what we can do about it. So when I saw that title, I was like, all right, we need to get her on. This is like it's just it's calling me because, yes, this is something we don't really talk about. So where did this book come from? How did you come to write this? 

07:25 - Courtney Boyer (Host)
Yeah. So I worked with a gosh thousands of women who have come into my office Now I say office because it's basically Zoom, or like when I would speak at at parenting or mom groups and I'd have moms come up to me afterwards and I would. I could guarantee it that I would get asked two questions what is wrong with me and am I broken? And those two questions. Oh, just after year after year after year, I was like and I'm done, I got to do something about this Like I wanted women to feel like, if they weren't ready to hire somebody like me or to go into a mental health professional, that they at least could have a resource that made them feel seen and heard. And yes, that is what I've been feeling, this is what I. And then what can I do about it? And so that's really. 

08:13
It was a bridge to how help women. One to see themselves in something and then two to really elevate the conversation around women's sexuality. So I'm part of a book club and we read some really great and fun books, and a lot of times that the conversation ends up turning to sex I don't think it's just because I'm there. I really just kind of am silent on this part. But then the bit, courtney, what do you think about this? Well, since you asked, okay, I'll tell you. 

08:40 - Katie Fenske (Host)
Okay, let's talk about this. Let's talk about it. 

08:43 - Courtney Boyer (Host)
But my dream was to really have this book be a book that women even men like I've had men's book clubs read this book and try to understand women better and their issues around sexuality better. And so that's really that dream of like, okay, I'm not ready to maybe talk about it for me per se, but I could talk about it in a group with other women and like use this as the stories that I share in the book. Like, if you guys relate to this, I can kind of relate to this and like, yeah and just, I never want women to feel alone, because I cannot tell you how many times women that come or that are prospective clients to work with me or just share it, want to share with me. Like I thought I was the only one, I thought that I was the only person that struggled with X, Y or Z, or that I couldn't figure it out and I just I never want them to feel that way. 

09:37 - Katie Fenske (Host)
Okay, so what are some of those X, Y and Z's like? What are some things that maybe we're afraid to bring up or talk about or share, that probably lots of women are going through? 

09:48 - Courtney Boyer (Host)
I think that we may not be sexually satisfied. That could be a big one. I think that we don't love our bodies and we don't feel comfortable in our bodies, and that's different than being dissatisfied with how they look aesthetically, like oh, I've got my wrinkles or my gray hair or whatever, but like I don't feel safe in my body, like I don't know how to be present in my body during a sexual experience. A lot of women don't talk about those things. You know, thinking like how do I, especially postpartum women, like how do I make that? Like how do I transition from having just given birth to a human and adjusting to this new body? And then also feeling like where's my place in this world? Like am I a mom, a woman, a wife? Like it's so easy for women to lose their sense of identity, especially in our culture, that really idolitis the martyrdom of motherhood, and so I think that's. You know, those are three big points. 

10:52 - Katie Fenske (Host)
Okay, there was so much in there. Well, especially because, like my thought was okay for sure, postpartum like that's a topic that needs to come up Because, yeah, you just had a baby. Like you're not feeling like yourself, you have a baby on you all day long, like sucking on your boobs, and you don't want anyone else touching at that point. So what is some advice you have for, like, postpartum moms? Because I know that, like six week mark was always tear. I mean, my friends and I talked about that. Oh my God, it's terrifying. Even after my third kid I was still like, oh God, six weeks, oh my gosh, are we really there yet? Like, what's some advice for some of those early postpartum moms? 

11:32 - Courtney Boyer (Host)
I think we have to give ourselves permission to not be human givers. And so this concept of human giving is where there's two groups of people the human beings and the human givers. And the human givers are here to give pleasure and resources and kindness and all of the things to the human beings. And I think too often women see ourselves as human givers and we forget that we have the right to assert and be like I'm not ready. Like six weeks is a freaking like benchmark for I don't know, like yes, medically maybe, yeah, my, okay, my stitches look great. Or like yep, that's intact. But like mentally, spiritually, whatever, like I'm not there yet and giving ourselves permission to say screw, whatever everybody else is saying I'm supposed to be doing, like what feels right to me. 

12:22
But, that's really hard to do, especially if you grew up in a culture, like I did, where we weren't taught to trust ourselves. We were taught to trust authority. We were taught to like look outside of ourselves, to typically men in power in the church and anything that don't. You cannot trust your body, you cannot trust your desires. Those will lead you astray, those will tempt you, and so then we become so disconnected from that internal message of our body and our heart saying you're not ready for this, like this isn't. Or you are ready, like yes, go get it. Like yes, that's great, whatever it is, whatever the situation. But I think that's something that we don't really realize, the like impact that it has on us. 

13:04 - Katie Fenske (Host)
Mm-hmm. All right, what are some insights into just the importance of sex in a relationship? Cause? I mean, I would probably say the stereotype is like men want sex all the time, but there are women that do too, or there are men that don't always want it all the time, but we can agree that sex is important to a relationship. So when you have kids and you're busy, busy, busy, like, how do you make it a priority, knowing that it's important? You know, like I'm busy but I do want that to be part of my relationship, but I'm not always thinking about it. 

13:39 - Courtney Boyer (Host)
Yes, I would. I think it really depends on where, like the season that you're at, and like the role that sex has played in your relationship. You know, I know some couple like I get asked this all the time like how much sex should we be having, Like what's like the normal amount? And I hate that question because it's not. There is no magic number. It's so different for every couple and it is so different depending on the season of life You're in. Like my husband and I have the most sex we've ever had now, but my kids are also older, you know. So, like when they were young, I was so not interested, I was tired all the time. 

14:12 - Katie Fenske (Host)
I'm tired. 

14:13 - Courtney Boyer (Host)
It doesn't mean that like our relationship was bad or like that, just because we had less sex, but it also meant that I was prioritizing other things, and so I think we have to give ourselves permission to look at, you know, look at our calendar and be like, okay, what are the things that are important to me, what are the things that bring me joy? And that's something that I really try to help clients do is to prioritize pleasure in their life. Yes, sometimes that's gonna look like sex, but other times it's gonna look like a nap or taking a shower or whatever, because we're not even going to consider giving our body to somebody else if we are so empty inside, and so really, the priority needs to be finding ways that bring us pleasure, fill that cup up, so then we're open to connecting with our partner sexually. 

15:00 - Katie Fenske (Host)
Do you like teach people or recommend ways to talk to your partners about that? Like finding, like, how much time would be the right amount of time for us, not necessarily scheduling sex, but just like being open about how many times do you wanna do it. 

15:18 - Courtney Boyer (Host)
Absolutely. I love I like to call it sex expectations. So like what are your expectations around sex, around sexual intimacy? And it's gonna be different for every couple and a lot of times women have an inflated number for their male partner and men have an deflated number. 

15:37 - Katie Fenske (Host)
Like we think that they want more. 

15:40 - Courtney Boyer (Host)
Yes and men think that we want it less. Oh, interesting. And so then we don't wanna ask because we're afraid that we're not gonna be able to meet that number, or we're gonna, on the other hand, we're gonna be disappointed by their number, and so then we don't engage in the conversation, and so instead of somebody being brave to initiate and say, hey, like we're in the six month stage, okay, or we're like the we have a newborn right, zero to six month stage, or we have kids are about to go back to school, or parents are coming for the holidays, or kids empty nesters, whatever it is Like, let's kind of have a check-in, which I want to make a side note. I recommend doing a relationship audit every year. I actually had my relationship audit published in the Huffington Post about a month ago, not so awesome. 

16:26
Oh, thanks, yeah. And so, like my husband and I sat down and we went through it on our anniversary, which was the beginning of this month, and we go like these 10 questions of and two of them are about sex and so back to sorry my point of what are your expectations around sex? How much sex do you wanna be having? Like that is a helpful question to ask. Like, okay, oh, you don't want it every day. Oh, you're okay with two times a week. Okay, okay, that can be doable. I can like mentally prepare myself for that. Or like, okay, you do want it every day. 

16:59
Okay, so when I hear you say that, like, that makes me feel a little bit overwhelmed because I feel a pressure on me. 

17:05
So then the other person needs to be like, okay, is there anything that I can do to take off your plate or anything I can take off of your plate so that you can be more physically and emotionally ready for sexual encounters? So, like I have a girlfriend, she has four boys and she is a stay-at-home mom and her husband works a lot and he would come home and she would, you know, put the kids to bed and just be so, so drained at the end of the day, and then he would like expect sex, and so she got so tired of telling him no. She said here's the deal If you want me to give you sex whenever you want, this is what I need from you. I need you to do the dishes, I need you to bathe the boys and make sure everybody's in bed, and while you're doing that, I'm gonna go do what I need to do to be mentally and physically and whatever ready so that I can have that time with you. And he was like done, I was good. 

18:01 - Katie Fenske (Host)
He didn't probably have to get back to do it, he was like sure. 

18:05 - Courtney Boyer (Host)
But how many women are afraid to even proposition that question to their partners? Yeah, and so it's like this can be a win. We can find win-win situations, but it requires a lot of discussion. It requires sometimes stay-at-home moms can be a little overbearing and controlling and we wanna have our hands in everything. I know I would stay at home for a while Right, no, you're not doing it, right, you're not doing it Just, let me do it. 

18:31
Yes, no, not just let me do it right, just let me go take it out, just let me go get ready, let me go shave, let me go shower, whatever it is. So I think that there are absolutely ways to set yourself up. But the question that a lot of couples are not asking that they should be are what is the kind of sex you want to be having? Oh, so it's really not about the frequency. It's more about like, what am I getting? 

18:57 - Katie Fenske (Host)
out of this, okay. 

18:59 - Courtney Boyer (Host)
And not from necessarily a selfish perspective, but a lot of the sex that a lot of long term married couples have last maybe maybe 10 minutes and usually ends in the man finishing and the woman not. That is not the kind of sex that women want to be having. Like that, just it's not. So we need to have a larger conversation about female pleasure, about female arousal. Right, a lot of men are like, oh wait, it takes you like 10 to 17 minutes to have an orgasm, like it only takes me three to seven. And then we wonder why women feel like they're quote taking too long because our bodies are just built differently, not good, not bad. That's also a generalization If you take longer or shorter, just on average. But yeah, I think it's again believing that I deserve to be having really connected, pleasurable, like deep, orgasmic, whatever the sex that you want to be having. That I deserve that. But a lot of women don't believe that they deserve that, so they're not even interested in having that conversation where they have to advocate for that. 

20:04 - Katie Fenske (Host)
Yeah, and that's where they feel like what's wrong with me, why am I broken? 

20:08 - Courtney Boyer (Host)
Right, Because they don't realize that the bigger question is do I really believe I'm deserving of this? 

20:14 - Katie Fenske (Host)
Well, how do you get like okay, let's say you get to the root of that. How do you, how do you handle that, how do you cure that or how do you heal that, if you feel like I don't deserve this? 

20:26 - Courtney Boyer (Host)
Yes, you heal it by figuring out where that messaging came from and deciding if you want to do it differently, because I would love to say it is a smooth transition Once you know you're good. 

20:39
Where you want to go. But the problem is right, is that when we change, that can inconvenience other people. And so if we have a partner that's been having the kind of sex that he wants to be having and he doesn't really see anything wrong with the setup, and we come in and say I actually haven't been enjoying this and I want to do it this way now, that can cause some conflict. 

21:04 - Katie Fenske (Host)
And then you don't want to hurt them either. You know, like that, no, that is. 

21:09 - Courtney Boyer (Host)
No, that's not about advocating for your needs in a respectful way. And it's not about them, it's about you. 

21:19 - Katie Fenske (Host)
Do you work with couples a lot, or is it mainly just women? 

21:22 - Courtney Boyer (Host)
It depends. I go through seasons. I've had seasons where I'm like man, like all of my clients are couples, and then I have I'm like it's only women or like 50, like I'll work with men too, because men are really interested in like trying to understand, like their relationships. Like I had a guy that I worked with one time who came to me because his marriage was just struggling and he was like I don't know what to do, like I feel like it's not just sex, it's everything Communication, it's how we interact, it's like spending just normal, you know, one-on-one time with her feels awkward and weird, and so I worked with him through that. 

21:59 - Katie Fenske (Host)
Interesting. Yeah, yeah, that's so great that they're open. I think more men are willing to do that than we give them credit for. 

22:07 - Courtney Boyer (Host)
Absolutely. Yeah, I am really impressed with how many men and how many couples have actually read my book together and like the conversations that have come out of that is my favorite one was this reader said that her husband and her were in bed and he was reading my book and he came to the part about body image and he was turned to her and was, like, do you love your body? And she said, no, I don't. Wow, that blew his mind. He had no idea that. She just felt he's like I don't understand. Like you've given me beautiful children, that you're healthy, you're gorgeous. Like how could you not love your body, you know? And so she's like I don't hate it, like I used to, but I just kind of am okay with it. And that really helped like bring them closer together and helped him understand a part of her that she didn't really know how to bring up in conversation. 

23:06 - Katie Fenske (Host)
I remember asking my husband once have you ever in your life felt like you were like fat or overweight? And he was like, oh no, maybe there was that year in college. I drink a little bit, that's it. 

23:16 - Courtney Boyer (Host)
I do my beers yeah. 

23:18 - Katie Fenske (Host)
I was like probably since second grade I've thought about my body, like it has been an ongoing thing. So you're right, they probably don't know, because I know like after you have a baby, you're like I do not look the same, no, I feel the same. But they're probably like, oh, you just had a baby, okay. 

23:34 - Courtney Boyer (Host)
Here we go. 

23:34 - Katie Fenske (Host)
Yeah, what a difference. Oh, I was kind of wondering, like, if I get your book and I start reading it, my husband sees the covers. He can be like, huh, what's going on? Yeah, but it's true, why don't you read this? Yeah, we don't talk about it that often. It's like we are so focused on our kids and getting them to practice in school and this that it's like sometimes it just gets like pushed under the rug and you just kind of go years without talking about it. 

23:59 - Courtney Boyer (Host)
Yeah, and especially too, because desires change, you know, needs, frequency, interests, those it's normal for those things to change. And I think we forget that. And then we're like shocked, like how could you just drop this bomb on me and yet we haven't cultivated an environment where we can have these conversations openly. And then that's what happens, that's what really leads to secrecy and like affairs, and I mean that's a complicated topic. But you know, it's just we're not making our marriages or our, you know, romantic partnerships safe places where we can really evolve and really like grow. 

24:40
And that's one thing I really love about doing a relationship audit at least once a year, where you're forced to sit down and just kind of take an inventory of the financial, spiritual, physical, sexual and emotional needs that are present in that marriage. But they may not be brought up in a in a natural conversation, Right? 

25:00 - Katie Fenske (Host)
Yeah, I know our kids are so loud we rarely get to like talk to ourselves. Is your audit available online or yes, it's through the. 

25:09 - Courtney Boyer (Host)
I can send you the link, Then me the links. 

25:11 - Katie Fenske (Host)
I'm going to put it in the show notes. Yeah, yeah, because I'm, my husband and I are like we can barely think because they're so loud, let alone talk about anything that's relatively important. Okay, so recently I interviewed someone who was a menopause expert and a perimenopause expert. How does menopause and us having you know ages going up and our kids getting older, how does that affect, like, our sex drive? Well, how old are you? I am 43. 

25:38 - Courtney Boyer (Host)
OK, ok. So I'm 41. And when I hit my late 30s, 40, my sex drive skyrocketed. Like I was like shocked by that. 

25:47 - Katie Fenske (Host)
That is so good to hear, because everyone always says oh, when you get older, like oh no, and so I'm always wondering at what age do we actually stop having sex Like, are we going to? Are we going to be like grandma and grandpa need some privacy? 

26:01 - Courtney Boyer (Host)
Yeah, shut the door kids on your way out, yeah, and so, because when your kids are kind of out of that evolutionary, I have to like keep them safe from predators. You know a lot of like minor in Germany they're all in high school, which is weird, but that's what works here. So they're like, they're on their own, like they can figure it out, they're fine. And so it's this sense of oh, it's about me now. Like I get to think about me and what I like and I don't have to. I mean, yes, my kids still wipe gross things on me sometimes, but nothing like they used to. So I can OK, I can invest in a little bit nicer clothes and think about this and that. 

26:38
And really I think also like women stop giving a care of what happens once they hit 40. It's a beautiful thing of like I don't care what other people think and I really I don't care if you know that I have a vibrator. I don't care if you know that, like I'm really horny right now, like, right, no, just we just tend to care less, and I think. But also you know the reality with menopause too, it's like this burden for a lot of women, and historically the burden of pregnancy has, like that was something serious to worry about. 

27:10
And yes, we live at an age where we can have the control. Most of us have the control over our fertility pretty easily. But, you know, being menopausal or postmenopausal knowing like I can have sex just for frickin' fun, you know, and I don't have to, there's no worry of pregnancy or having a baby or any of that. I can just have sex to have sex, and that's really frickin' fun. So I think that that can bring a sense of freedom. Obviously there's some, you know, hormonal changes and things that make sex a little bit different as we age, but totally doable, fun and ten. 

27:42 - Katie Fenske (Host)
So yeah, well, I like how you said. Those things can change and it's OK if, like, your desires change and you know the time of day that you do. It can change depending on when your kids are in school. 

27:53 - Courtney Boyer (Host)
Yes, yes, like making, like, give yourself permission, like there is no rulebook I mean, people like to think that there is, and society sure is happy to give you this rulebook of you're supposed to do this, and this is what a Pinterest mom would do, and then this is what an Instagram mom would do, and right, like, or when you hear someone say, oh, we have sex this many times a week, you're like, oh God, now I feel bad, I'm a terrible wife, Like I should be doing more. 

28:18
Yeah, yeah, 100%. And what? When they say, well, what does sex even mean? Is it a game of blow job? Is it like a hand job? Like sex can mean so many different things to different people. But we know the image that in the message that it conveys when we drop little things like that, like yeah, I have sex like every day. Like okay, wow, I must be approved because I have sex like twice a week. And so then you're like okay, well then, once I understand what sex means to them. But here's the thing it doesn't matter. Like it doesn't matter if they claim to have sex three times a day. Like the fact is that there is no magic standard. As long as you feel good about what you're doing, that's all that matters and you feel safe and loved and desired and pleasure in your relationship. Like that should be the focus, not like one up being, you know, married on the street. 

29:11 - Katie Fenske (Host)
Yeah, yeah, okay. So what are some things we can do to get in the mood if we're not quite feeling it? So speaking to our partners and letting them know what we need. What are some other things like? 

29:23 - Courtney Boyer (Host)
I would again. I'm going to I know I say this a lot but like giving yourself permission to receive and I don't necessarily mean like for you to receive, like oral sex, or you to receive whatever, but like in a way, yes, I kind of do Like you are here to receive pleasure. I am a sexual being and I deserve to enjoy this experience and so really, that's, if we cannot get past that point, all the tips in the world won't mean anything. Yeah, like we have to believe that we deserve it. 

29:53 - Katie Fenske (Host)
I think that's so true for moms. Because we are giving, giving, giving all day long, it's hard to like turn that off and be like okay, now it's my turn, because we're just in mom mode. 

30:02 - Courtney Boyer (Host)
Absolutely yes, and so finding ways. Okay, how do I need to transition time? Do I need to like go walk around target? Do I need to go like just stand in the woods and scream Like I mean, what do I need to do that I can like give myself this transition time or this really reconnection time, you know, because I can't like shake off the fact that I'm a mom, but I can like put on the hat that I am the woman right now and that I deserve to. 

30:32
I desire sex. I think even just a simple thing to do is really just to be like I love sex, like you can say it out loud, you can think it. You'd be like I think about sex all the time. I can't wait to have sex later. I'm going to do and like. I know that sounds ridiculous because as moms, we have been like given this message for so long of like, oh, my gosh, like he totally wanted to have sex again and like, oh, like, like we don't want it. And like what? That's not the narrative, friends, that's not the narrative I want. Like, I want the narrative with my friends to be like got it, got it on twice today, okay. 

31:06
And we're like hi Marvin, yeah, like good for you, right, but that's tends to not be the narrative and it tends to be like, like, if you want to say again, like I've got to go, like do my wifely duty, but like what if you started to be like I'm a hot, sexy bitch, or like I am like I'm a slice of cake, or like man, sex is so fun, I love it. Like I can't wait to have an orgasm, or like, oh, I love it when he kisses me this way, or what Like that is how we start to become in that sexual zone, by seeing ourselves as sexual beings. 

31:44 - Katie Fenske (Host)
It's like changing your mindset, because I bet a lot of women hearing this will probably be like, but I don't ever feel like I want to have sex. 

31:51
Yes, you don't, that's right Thinking about it and talking about it, Because I know for me, like my husband, I do this thing at Christmas time where we do the 12 sexy days of Christmas. Well, I do this for him. It's like the one time a year that I'm like 12 days we're going, but one day is usually like sending texts, like sexy texts, and I can tell by the end of that day I'm like I'm ready to go. 

32:13
Whereas normally it's like oh wait, we're done with baseball practice. The kids are in bed. Oh wait, are we going to do it? But it's because I've been thinking about it all day. 

32:21 - Courtney Boyer (Host)
Absolutely yes. Just having it on the forefront and again, really especially for women who are not used to seeing and being in the initiator and seeing themselves as a sexual being like that can be a total like mind shift. That can be. It can be hard to overcome. 

32:39 - Katie Fenske (Host)
I think you're right when you said being the initiator, Because that's a hard one. He would never turn me down, but it's like I don't say anything and he's not going to say anything. Then we just end up not doing it. I could initiate and I bet he would be very surprised by that. 

32:55 - Courtney Boyer (Host)
Yes. So I think that's one thing, and then one more would be try to find something that helps you, like, feel connected to pleasure, and again, not just sexual pleasure. But the more pleasure filled our life is outside the bedroom, the more open we are to pleasure inside the bedroom, just like when you're in a good mood, you're like what, oh, let's do that. Okay, sure, honey, why not make that happen? But if we are so drained from day after day after day and our life is just, you know, looking for the weekends and whiskey is one song likes to put it then we miss out on those opportunities to really experience and be present. And that requires intention. It requires us to be like well, what brings me pleasure? Like it's a lot easier to disconnect and check out and to numb out. But I cannot tell you how detrimental that is to yourself and to your relationship long term. 

34:00 - Katie Fenske (Host)
Yeah, okay. So you, as the sex expert and a mom, have your kids ever walked in on you? 

34:08 - Courtney Boyer (Host)
No, Okay, I've been very good about setting boundaries and like sometimes, like they'll knock on the door sometimes the door is locked and I'll be like, hey, can you come back? Great, awesome, okay. And if they asked, I would tell them what we were doing. Like, yeah, we were even depending on their age. Like I think age appropriate it's important, but I also think that they should know that sex is a part of a healthy relationship. And, like my dad's not alive anymore, but if my parents were still married, like I hope that they had a great sex life. Like that is something that I think we as parents and as children have such a like, oh, that's so gross. Like, oh, I don't want to think about my kids having sex. Or oh, my parents are. Like, but we're all sexual beings. And like I hope my kids have a great sex life. Like I hope they feel like they can communicate their needs, that they know what consent and boundaries are, that they are open minded to the things that could possibly bring them. Yeah, yeah. 

35:06 - Katie Fenske (Host)
Why not? Yeah, we started lately like very blatantly, openly kissing in front of our boys and of course they're like, oh and I'm like, but I love your dad, so I'm going to kiss him Like I want you to see us doing this Now. They have not ever knocked on the door yet. We have had to start locking the door because they are old enough now. But at what age this is I don't know. Getting off the a little bit of topic, what age did you start talking about it with your kids? 

35:34 - Courtney Boyer (Host)
Oh, I mean, since, like they were teeny, tiny, like sex is an ongoing conversation that happens like immediately, and it's not. When we think of conversations about sex a lot of times we think you know, intercourse, reproduction, and it's so much bigger than that, that's like a teeny, tiny bit of it. So, you know, I raised my kids with the medically accurate names of the body parts we talk about. Like consent is very much like hey, like they said no, like we're not going to. So, even though that's not a sexual conversation, that's still something that translates. You know, giving my kids permission If my son wants to wear a dress, I don't freaking care. If he wants to paint his nails, my daughter wants to shave her head. You know, like those are gender roles, like expectations, and so they grew up in a very where we talk about all things sexuality. 

36:20
And I remember when we moved to Germany it wasn't even my kids are in German school and my friend, my, my daughter, who was 10 at the time and in fifth grade, which is high school, here she was talking to another American friend, also in a German school, and whose parents did not raise her the way that we did and she was like Mom, did you know that some parents don't talk to their kids about sex? And I was like, yes, I did know that. Yes, so like why would they do that? And I was like, well, you know. And so that I explained to her, you know, and she was just like her mind was blown. Even though we're the minority of raising our kids in a very sex-positive, very open household. She was like I don't understand why nobody oops, nobody would do that. 

37:05 - Katie Fenske (Host)
And like, maybe if you don't make it this big deal, this hush hush, like keep it a secret thing, they're not gonna like, abuse it Like yeah, that's what I've been hearing more and more lately. Is that the idea of the talk is outdated, that you just like dribble it in, as, like, my kids keep asking me like how is the baby? Where is the baby? And I've started saying like oh, the baby's in your uterus, because I've heard like don't say that they're tummy because they think, wait, you ate the baby. 

37:32
You ate the baby, yeah, Babies in the uterus. Or my one son like he keeps saying like, well, how does it come out? Well, he was a C-section. So I can say, oh for you. The doctor cut you out. And then my other son was like, wait, did you, did, doctor, come me out? I'm like, no, you came out of you know, my vagina. And they're like, oh, but I'm like, but that's how it happens, Like we just need to be okay with that. 

37:55 - Courtney Boyer (Host)
Yeah, yeah, it's true, it's such a. When we normalize it, we take the shame out of it. And then we we tell our kids that these are things and questions that they can talk about, like I can't tell you like. So my oldest is in ninth grade and then my middle one is in seventh grade, and so they have a lot of friends who are, you know, experimenting with their sexuality, with their gender, like a lot of different things, and they don't have a lot of them don't have families where they feel safe to express that. 

38:26
And so one day my daughter was like I'm really grateful that you guys are so open and that you we don't feel like unsafe and that we know that we can bring our friends here who don't feel safe at their homes and where they should be loved. And it's, it's really reassuring when my kids are like I don't understand how you could treat your kids that way, like how you could love some like to them. They're just like. It doesn't make sense. And I think the more we do that, the more we normalize and get over ourselves and like okay, these are my own insecurities and my own issues as a parent that I need to work through, because our kids don't know that all the baggage, they don't know all the the connotations and the cultural idioms and all those things. They learn that through other people but they have the opportunity to learn from us that it is normal and natural and beautiful. 

39:20 - Katie Fenske (Host)
Yeah, yeah. So coming from like a religious background, what? What have you told your kids about like waiting till they're married or being in a relationship? Do you have those conversations too? 

39:31 - Courtney Boyer (Host)
Oh, absolutely. We talk about all the things. We talk about monogamy, non monogamy, open marriages. We talk about anything that they really are going to come across or interact with. You know it's and a lot of. I mean the conversations we have in the car are just hilarious, sometimes Always the car right? Yeah, I'm just like can we stop talking about existential, like? I just want to go to the grocery store and remember my list. I really appreciate your. Yeah, so you know we I grew up. 

40:01
I've never told my kids they have to wait to have sex before they get married. We've never dictated their sexual behavior. It has always been. You know, if you feel like you're in a at a place and and none of them are in a place right now, like even my ninth grader, so some of her friends have had sex she is not interested in that, she doesn't have a boyfriend, she's not looking to date right now, but that's something that, if you feel like that's something that you are interested in, let's have a conversation about that, because that's really deep and difficult and I know that when she is ready, she will come talk to me, because she she has talked to me about all of the other things. 

40:41 - Katie Fenske (Host)
Right, and so keeping it hidden, doing it in secret? Yeah, exactly, and so like okay. 

40:45 - Courtney Boyer (Host)
So then we need to have the birth control conversation, we need to have the emotional and. But I don't think. I mean I don't think that, because the studies show like 90 to 95% of Americans will have sex before they get married. So you can hold on right and really believe and there's nothing wrong with. I think absence before marriage is a totally valid choice. 

41:09
A lot of times, though, it's based out of shame and not out of love, and which I'm not a big fan of. I don't think you should shame anybody into anything. It doesn't work long term, and so that's something, and so that's something we don't do with our kids. It's very love based, very open. If you want to get married, get married. If you don't, don't, I don't care. If you want to have three husbands, have three husbands you want. Like it does not matter to me. Like to be honest, I'm more concerned about the type of person that you are Like. I'm more like are you kind, are you generous, are you thoughtful, are you respectful, are you using your gifts to make this world a better place. Like who you love or who you have sex with is really inconsequential to those bigger things. 

41:49 - Katie Fenske (Host)
Is your husband very open with the kids, or was that? 

41:52 - Courtney Boyer (Host)
something that-. 

41:53 - Katie Fenske (Host)
I mean, he's gotten better at or he's always been pretty open. 

41:59 - Courtney Boyer (Host)
I remember one time when I was in college he asked his mom when I was on the phone, like, how old were you when you started your period? And I was like, why do you ask after mom? They're not like yeah, and it just was very normal for them growing up. 

42:12
But he's also a physician, so like Okay okay, so like medical stuff to him is normal but, also he grew up in a very sex positive Like they didn't have the conversations like we did, but they also never used shame. They never were like you're going to hell if you have sex before you get married. They didn't really like go either way. But yeah, he is incredibly like. When my girls have started their period, like they told him, they called their grandparents. They were like it was a huge freaking deal, like something that they wanted to celebrate, like going into womanhood and I would have died. 

42:51 - Katie Fenske (Host)
Oh, my gosh Died, it, died it. I remember crying when I started my period because I was like yeah, oh, what? Yeah, oh, thank you. 

42:58 - Courtney Boyer (Host)
It was awful. No absolutely not. And so the fact that, like they, we all have like random conversations, like my son knows about, like the menstrual cycle, the ovulation, the labial fate like he's 10. 

43:09 - Katie Fenske (Host)
You know what I'm saying? My nine year old I was buying tampons and one of my boys was like what are you buying? And my nine year old goes oh, that's a bandaid for her butt. I'm like maybe we're not going to discuss this in the grocery store, but we do have a chat about that, yeah. 

43:24 - Courtney Boyer (Host)
We're going to work on that conversation. Yeah, so because I want them to feel like these are normal. This isn't something to be shamed for, because for centuries, women were shamed because we bled, because we were seen unclean and we were seen less than, and I never want my son to view women that way and I never want my daughters to feel that way. 

43:43 - Katie Fenske (Host)
Right, right. And when I found out I was having a boy I was like, oh great Hands, I'm washing my hands of it, I don't have to do the sex talk. Well, now you know you have kids and you start learning like maybe I do need to be involved in this and maybe I don't want to just leave it up to my husband. I think he will be great. 

44:02
We both are a little bit awkward still but I think, knowing that my boys can talk to me, we were in the car, of course, in the car and it came up that my son was not wearing his athletic cup to baseball and my father-in-law made the comment oh, you're going to want to wear that to protect your family jewels. And my husband's like, yeah, don't you want kids one day? And he goes why would wearing a cup mean I can't have kids? And I'm like the wheels are turning and it's just the talk we need to have all together. But it's coming up and I'm very hopeful that my boys would be comfortable talking to me or my husband, whichever one they can go to. 

44:39 - Courtney Boyer (Host)
Yeah, there's just so much out there that wasn't there when we were teenagers, just in terms of relationship style, sexuality, just so much more fluidity, and I think that it can be. I mean, it's overwhelming to somebody like me who's an expert, and I do with this and understand it. But as a parent trying to communicate and help them my kids to navigate that gosh it's. It's almost impossible if you're not willing to get over the awkward and discomfort factor. 

45:15
And just be like I don't understand this, and a lot of times what happens is, if we don't what we don't understand, we fear, and what we fear we make fun of. 

45:23
Because, we want to create distance because we see that as different, and different is bad, and it takes a lot of humility to be like OK, can you explain to me what being pansexual means? Or can you explain to me what being polyamorous means? Or can you explain? Because then we think that we look stupid or whatever. But I think that those are terms that our kids are going to be not just hearing, but also interacting and facing and helping them to navigate. Well, how do I want them to feel about it? How do I want them to approach it or those things? 

45:53 - Katie Fenske (Host)
And if they have questions, I want them to come to me as opposed to talking to their friend. 

45:59 - Courtney Boyer (Host)
Oh dear God, the Google search yeah. 

46:03 - Katie Fenske (Host)
Oh, man, and I think you're right. It's OK to say I don't really know the answer. 

46:08 - Courtney Boyer (Host)
It is. 

46:09 - Katie Fenske (Host)
Or let's chat about that. Yeah, yeah, but I'm thinking. 

46:12 - Courtney Boyer (Host)
What do you think about that? Yes, Ask, respond to a question with a question. That's always helps for clarifying. And if you don't honestly know or you don't want to talk about it, then be honest and tell them that and then also follow up. So if you're like you know what, I really appreciate you asking. Like I really appreciate your comment about the tampons and the butthole or whatever it is, or the Band-Aid. That's not accurate. But I would love to talk to you about it. Not now, how about later this week? 

46:39 - Katie Fenske (Host)
Right, because sometimes I don't necessarily want to bring all that up in front of the four year old and the 60-year-old. 100% yeah, like you're old enough now. 

46:46 - Courtney Boyer (Host)
But it's super important to follow up and not use that as an excuse like, ooh, hopefully they forget about it Because they're kids and they will not forget about it, but they will send them the message that you are not a person of your word and that this is a conversation that makes you uncomfortable, because if it didn't, then you would have brought it up. 

47:03 - Katie Fenske (Host)
Right, and I can't go to mom for this, then, and I'm going to go to mom's Exactly. So interesting, wow, ok, we got into a lot here. That was really really great. I appreciate everything you shared. This is wonderful, thank you. Where can we find you if we want to know more about your book and what you offer? And, yeah, everything. 

47:24 - Courtney Boyer (Host)
So pretty much anything that is Courtney Boyer coaching is where you can find me. So that's my website CourtneyBoyerCoachingcom. I'm on Instagram at Courtney Boyer Coaching, facebook, linkedin, I think Threads too. So, yeah, you can send me an email If you don't. If you want to just message me on Instagram and ask for the relationship audit, I can also just message it to you personally. Oh, awesome Event to any of the listeners. If they have any questions about it, I'm happy to answer them. But I do. I literally used it on my own anniversary dinner and I'm really passionate about these conversations and having them and, yeah, I think that's good and to set up on your anniversary. 

48:01 - Katie Fenske (Host)
That's a good idea. I'm like each year yes, the way you can. 

48:03 - Courtney Boyer (Host)
Yes, we've been doing it, for we've been very for 19 years now. So oh nice, yeah, nice Love it Well. 

48:09 - Katie Fenske (Host)
Thank you so much for coming on. This was a wonderful conversation. Thank you, katie. A big special thanks to Courtney all the way over in Germany for joining me for this conversation. This was a great topic. I am so glad to bring you topics that make me feel a little bit uncomfortable but are so important to us as moms and women to be talking about. If you loved this podcast as much as I love making it for you, then please leave me a five star review. Follow the podcast so you're alerted when new episodes come out, and come over and say hi to me on social media or send me an email at katie at burntpancakescom, because I love connecting with you and just getting to know my listeners even better. So until next week's conversation, I want to remind you that everyone burns their first pancakes, so just keep flipping んだ얼가.