86. Balancing Ambition and Motherhood: Alessandra Wall's Journey to Work-Life Harmony

Today, I'm joined by Alessandra Wall, an executive coach and mom of two boys, who shares her fascinating journey of juggling ambition and motherhood. From her transition from child psychologist to business owner, Alessandra opens up about how motherhood prompted her to seek a new balance in life. 

Alessandra's story is one of unexpected ambition sparked by parenthood, pushing her to chase larger dreams while managing the complexities of family life.

Join us as we discuss the unique challenges of balancing work and motherhood, particularly the dynamics of working from home and setting boundaries during the pandemic.

 Alessandra shares her strategies for maintaining work-life boundaries and emphasizes the importance of a professional network to support personal ambitions.

Connect with Alessandra:

LinkedIn linkedin.com/in/dralessandrawall

Website: Noteworthyinc.co

Newsletter: https://noteworthy-inc.kit.com/newsletter

Resource: Unforgettable - A 3-step roadmap to articulating your value with confidence, poise, and Impact

📺 Watch the episode on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLOpw5ui4uxJHx0tLFVtpnfSkpObfc4d-K

You can find Katie at:
website: burntpancakes.com
YouTube: @burnt.pancakes
Instagram: @burntpancakeswithkatie
Email: katie@burntpancakes.com

🚽 Did you know Katie is also a Certified Potty Trainer? 🚽

☎️ Schedule a 1:1 chat today: Schedule Here
💻 Digital Potty Training Course HERE
📖 Potty Training E-Book HERE
🆓 FREE potty training resources HERE
Instagram: @itspottytime
Tiktok: @itspottytime_

Transcript

00:09 - Katie Fenske (Host)
Hello, hello and welcome back to the burnt pancakes podcast. I'm your host, Katie Fenske, and I'm reminding moms that everyone burns their first pancake. Today I am chatting with Alessandra Wall. She is an executive coach, business owner and mom of two boys, and we're going to chat all about what it's like being an ambitious woman, an ambitious mom, in the midst of motherhood, so how she built her career while raising her kids. What it's like to be a mom struggling to find your identity and your ambitions while raising kids. We're talking about maybe not always loving motherhood and some of the mistakes we've made along the way. So sit back and enjoy my momversation with Alessandra Wall. Alessandra, welcome to the podcast. 

00:59 - Alessandra Wall (Host)
I'm so happy to be here today. 

01:02 - Katie Fenske (Host)
I'm glad to have your energy. Already I can tell we were chit-chatting a little bit. I'm like you're going to be fun to talk to. Why don't you start off just by introducing yourself and tell us where you are and how many kids you have? 

01:14 - Alessandra Wall (Host)
So my name is Alessandra Wall. I am San Diego based. Right now I have two kids, both boys, 13 and soon to be 16. Wow, Two teenagers. When I'm not arguing with them about the fact that I don't want to drive them everywhere, and they can totally take public transportation, use their legs or or a bike or find some other parent to drive them around. I have a business where I do executive coaching and have a community to support senior executive women in male dominated industries. 

01:52 - Katie Fenske (Host)
Oh, interesting. Okay, so let's get into that. So you've built this business while raising kids. Can you share a bit about that journey, what you do, what inspired you to do that in the midst of motherhood? 

02:07 - Alessandra Wall (Host)
Sure. So first of all, I started my career as a child psychologist. Oh, that was. And you made a little shift 1.0. Then I had my oldest son, luca, and I didn't want to be a child therapist anymore. And everybody always asks they're like well, is it because you saw too many similarities? And that wasn't it. It's because it was so much fun to be on the ground and playing and doing play therapy with children when I could come home and had have a lot of time to myself, and it was not quite as much fun when, then, I would come home and do the same thing at home. 

02:42
Uh huh, yes, yes, I was a, I was a uh, adult therapist. He worked on the anxiety and built a business doing that, but it preceded the birth of Luca Um, and then it was a point where I just fell out of love with being a therapist. There are a lot of things I discovered becoming a mom. One is that I was an introvert, which I had no idea, because I'm super social and I'm high energy but I did not realize how much time I actually spent alone and recharging before I had children. 

03:16 - Katie Fenske (Host)
Yeah, and then when you have kids, you don't get that time. 

03:19 - Alessandra Wall (Host)
Well, you can't. And it's beautiful, right? Other than dogs, small children are the only beings that will be quite that excited to have you walk in the door at the end of the night yes, absolutely wonderful, and it does totally go away because they go from mommy, mommy I love you to what's for dinner, which is the world's worst question. 

03:38
Um, but I, I, I realized I just couldn't do it anymore. There were lots of pieces Like I didn't want to be on a phone call in the middle of the night with the psychiatric emergency room and somebody else, when I knew I was going to have to be up at like 5.00 AM to nurse. Having a second kid just, you know, made the problem, compounded the problem. Um, so I decided I'd build a new business because, hey, that was going to solve things. 

04:10
That I ran my therapy business while trying to build first a life coaching business because midlife crisis, um and then exhausted myself doing that and burnt myself out and then built this business, which I've loved, and I've been in business 10 years as a coach Wow, I've been retired, basically to going on three years as a therapist. 

04:32 - Katie Fenske (Host)
Okay, I was going to ask when you stopped, when you made the full jump to that. So two years. 

04:39 - Alessandra Wall (Host)
Yeah, it was my safety blanket right. It was my fallback job, so I had it for a long time safety blanket right. It was my fallback job, so I had it for a long time. That's probably when I needed to have it and for me, the most interesting thing about being a businesswoman and having children is having children made me incredibly ambitious. In a way I was not before having children. 

05:01 - Katie Fenske (Host)
Interesting. Okay, explain that. Go into that. That's very interesting. 

05:06 - Alessandra Wall (Host)
Before having children, life was simple insofar as I dreamed of really mundane things and would get like a kick out of really mundane things. So work was something I did and I enjoyed my work. I actually really loved what I did. But I didn't feel a need to work on my career beyond having my brick and mortar business like pictured maybe growing the business, getting other therapists. There was something about, I think, feeling limited by parenthood, that moment where you realize, wait, I can't do anything I want to do anymore. That made me realize how much more I wanted to reach for. Oh, interesting. 

05:45 - Katie Fenske (Host)
And then suddenly I'm like I don't just want to do anymore. 

05:47 - Alessandra Wall (Host)
that made me realize how much more I wanted to reach for. Oh interesting. And then suddenly I'm like I don't just want to break and mortar a teeny coaching business, like I want an international business. I want to be like the Kleenex of, or the Band-Aid or whatever, like that brand name of coaching for these senior executive women. The ambitions are just big. 

06:05 - Katie Fenske (Host)
How were you able to juggle that all, though, with kids? 

06:10 - Alessandra Wall (Host)
Horribly. I mean like everybody right, because I was, because. I was making money as a therapist and using that money to try to fund starting this business. I had two kids under the age of five at the time. I have a husband who has a full-time job. I got my kids in a co-op preschool, so I had to dedicate time to helping out there. So it was one of those things where, every minute that I wasn't mothering or wasn't operating as a therapist, I was in my office trying to build this other business. 

06:48
And it was really gratifying in some ways, but I would have to say that around the time my kids were maybe six and three or seven and four or something like that. They're two and a half years apart, so depending on the time of the year, three years or two years they looked at me and they say mommy, you work too much. 

07:13
So then I started taking Saturdays off, meaning I I wouldn't even like no matter what, I promised them I would never open my computer on a Saturday. Even if they had a play date and they were doing something, even if they didn't need me, I had to take that time off. That really helped. Starting to set boundaries really, really helped. The other piece that I was is I had to educate my kids. To me it was this big thing of this is really important to me. 

07:41
This is for me and and to say I work a lot, which is different than too much. 

07:50 - Katie Fenske (Host)
Right. 

07:50 - Alessandra Wall (Host)
My job as a mom is not necessarily to be at your beck and call. 

07:56 - Katie Fenske (Host)
Yeah. 

07:57 - Alessandra Wall (Host)
Did you have a five-year-old still Right? 

07:58 - Katie Fenske (Host)
Yeah. 

07:59 - Alessandra Wall (Host)
You know, when they're at that age, when they're like look at, mommy, look at, and they just want you to sit and watch them. 

08:05 - Katie Fenske (Host)
Come play with me, come do this. I want that. Yes, every second. 

08:10 - Alessandra Wall (Host)
No, I made a sibling for you. I told them that so many times. I didn't want to be your playmate. 

08:17 - Katie Fenske (Host)
You have a brother and I look back at childhood and I'm like I remember playing for hours by myself, like I had a playhouse and I would just be there. My boys can't do that. It's like, mom, mom, come outside with us, come do that. I'm like why can't you just go play? I yeah. 

08:34 - Alessandra Wall (Host)
Well, part of it is that we do it for like. This is one of the big things I argued when I was a child psychologist. Still, I pulled my kid out of one of his neighborhood schools because there wasn't enough play. And and a lot of the play was directed and scripted and I'm like that is not good for the child's right. 

08:51
Kid needs to be bored. Recess should be. Is them trying to figure out what game they're going to play and figure out the social politics of who's going to do what, and then the recess bell goes out. Nobody's ever played the game, right? So I would look at my kids and go like even today. Sometimes they're like I'm so bored. I'm like, yeah, that's how you know, I'm going to let you be bored. 

09:12 - Katie Fenske (Host)
Yes, and they get so mad at me when I say that, but I'm like the most creative things come out of boredom, so be bored, yeah yeah. And I also have a ton of work to get done, because do you work mostly from home, so I had an external office. 

09:26 - Alessandra Wall (Host)
Then the pandemic hit and we were doing those things online. Then, for a few years, I got an external office in downtown San Diego, but it was really expensive and the only benefit was that it allowed me to end my days to be more disciplined about when to end my days, then I realized I can do that on my own. So, they know that when I'm in this room, I'm working they have to pay attention. 

10:09
Am I looking at the screen? Am I talking to the screen? But sometimes I will see movement right or like a note. 

10:17 - Katie Fenske (Host)
Write a note and stick it on the. Can I have? 

10:20 - Alessandra Wall (Host)
and they text now right, so that was for dinner sometimes comes as a text. I'm like don't even dare ask that question. Don't ask me that when they call me, they're like hey, I got to go. I'm like you better not be asking me what's for dinner, because it's not take out. This is too important. You're not going to be happy anyhow. 

10:38 - Katie Fenske (Host)
Yes, right. 

10:39 - Alessandra Wall (Host)
I don't see why it should be my responsibility to think about what's for dinner. You're 16 and 13 now. 

10:44 - Katie Fenske (Host)
Yeah, I told my son that the other day. I'm like, if what I'm making is so awful, then you can be in charge of dinner tomorrow and he thought that was so cool. 

10:55 - Alessandra Wall (Host)
Do you tell them that you have to be in charge, but it has to be healthy and balanced. 

10:58 - Katie Fenske (Host)
Yeah, you can't just microwave it you? 

11:00 - Alessandra Wall (Host)
can't just make a bunch of rice and put some sauce. 

11:03 - Katie Fenske (Host)
Yeah, oh my gosh. Well, I feel the same way because I so I taught for a very long time. I was a classroom teacher and then I did independent study, but I, when I was doing the independent study, all of my work was at home pretty much other than like going out and doing some meetings. Now everything's like I am messaging clients on my phone, I'm answering emails on my phone, I'm in here recording, and they my son said to me the other day, you're on your phone too much, and I was like, well, yeah, I do scroll a lot, but I'm like at the moment I'm like I am replying to a client who paid me money to help them, like I'm a potty trainer, so explaining to him like, yes, I am on my phone a lot, but it's work, whereas like dad goes off to work and so they see that they don't know like when I'm home I'm still working. So that was kind of a an adjustment for me to have to like separate work and home. 

11:57 - Alessandra Wall (Host)
And I, I was born in Iran. Oh, okay. 

12:00
At the time um had an office in the house, but it must have been like I don't we left when I was 10 months so I don't remember anything about it, but it was a big enough basement space that his secretary had her desk and he had a private office would let my brother and sister disturb him and he would say Elizabeth, here's the thing. If I give them five minutes of undivided attention, I save myself an hour to an hour and a half of being interrupted. So I do try to do that If I'm not on the call and they walk in at the end of the school day, I will physically turn myself away from my computer and look at them in in the face or turn. 

12:43
My oldest will come and sit in there and like ask me about dinner, um, or tell me about his day, and and I'll tell them. I'll pay attention to them for five minutes and after five minutes I'll be, I'll tell them it's still the middle of my birthday. It's like 3, 30 right it's 3 30 on a tuesday. 

13:01 - Katie Fenske (Host)
It's the you have homework, go do your homework do they. 

13:04 - Alessandra Wall (Host)
I don't think they have homework these days. 

13:06 - Katie Fenske (Host)
I mean, the high schooler does oh I, I would love it if mine had less. 

13:10 - Alessandra Wall (Host)
That would be nice um, but I find that that helps a little bit, and right, but I'm not. I'm not working with people on potty training, right, that's an in the moment thing but they can pause a little bit. 

13:25 - Katie Fenske (Host)
I just wanted him to know like I am not just completely ignoring you. You know I am helping someone, but what is good for them to see? I think cause we both have boys it's I think good for them to see mom creating a career. You know like when I was teaching, they saw me go off to work. You know like when I was teaching, they saw me go off to work. You know like I would leave them with my mom or, but this is like mom's doing something to better our lives. So, talking about ambitious women, like you work with some very ambitious women Like that's a good thing for their kids to see. 

13:58 - Alessandra Wall (Host)
Yep, and we're still like, we're still behind societally, we even. I look at my, look at my husband, sometimes his reaction and I and I ask him, I'm like I wonder if your mom said that to your dad when he would go travel for work in the eighties and the nineties, I'm like I'm pretty sure she just it was understood, it was understood that your dad was going to travel. It was going to. And so it's re-educating spouses and partners, but also the kids, that this is what it looks like to build a business and what I found. 

14:29
I don't know if you've seen this yet. I bet you you will if you haven't, is that the boys are actually really proud of it, Right, like they actually. Oh, what is it? She has her own business, she does, right. 

14:49 - Katie Fenske (Host)
Well, they were asking me the other day how many subscribers do you have on your YouTube channel? You know, once you get 10,000, you get the play button, I'm like, okay, well, I'm working on it. Yeah, they're very into it, okay. So let's talk about some of the obstacles moms face when trying to pursue their personal and professional careers. Like, how do we overcome some of those obstacles? 

15:07 - Alessandra Wall (Host)
Well, the one that always the people always mentioned, even you and I have talked about it as time right. 

15:12 - Katie Fenske (Host)
That was the one that came to my mind, yeah. 

15:15 - Alessandra Wall (Host)
And with that I would tell any mom who's doing this exactly what I told, like what I tell the women I work with and what I did, is you have to be really clear about what it is you want to achieve and what the most important pieces of it are. I sunk so much time you and I talked before the call about how I used to have a podcast, the hours I sunk not into doing the podcast, but I would create an individual post summary for the podcast and. 

15:42
I'd create soundbites when you look at the business I was trying to build. That was actually not necessary. So this is getting really crystal clear. The other thing I would recommend, especially if somebody is building a business, is treat your time like you would a corporate job. Oh, I start my day at eight, 30. 

16:03 - Katie Fenske (Host)
It ends at four, four, 30. 

16:05 - Alessandra Wall (Host)
I 90% of the time exit at 4, 430, right, Like I don't see, I don't take calls until 10 am because I need to give myself in general right. I think group calls, group calls are the one thing. Once a month we have group calls earlier, but I need to give myself that focus period Most days where I can get work done uninterrupted If I tried to do that in the afternoon again. 

16:33
Kids come back from school, depending on the day, half day, full day, whatever it's really being. Treating your time like you would a corporate job and getting your schedule ready is one thing. I think the other big challenge, at least I ran into as a mom, is uh although there are two that I that I'm coming up with, but this is as a like is not feeling guilty for being really ambitious and for actually enjoying work. I have a husband who's working to retire. That's his goal, like if we win the lottery tomorrow, he retires. 

17:10 - Katie Fenske (Host)
If we win the lottery tomorrow. 

17:12 - Alessandra Wall (Host)
I grow my business. I love what I do. That's part of the reason why I invested all that time in building this business is so that I didn't just have something that paid the bills, I had something that paid the bills. That. I genuinely love. I don't love all pieces of it. Right, I love most of it, most of the time. So, I grow. 

17:32 - Katie Fenske (Host)
You seem passionate about it. 

17:34 - Alessandra Wall (Host)
Yeah, I love the women I work with and it's taken time to get to that place. You know, when you first started a business, it's like you've got a pulse. You've got a pulse, you've got a checkbook, I can solve your problem. Let's work together. I'm past that, mmm. You choose who I work with. I get to say no to people, not because I can't help them, but because it's like not the right bit, it's just like. It's like slightly off okay and it's. 

18:02
It's really sometimes hard. I still I think, as women and as moms, to not be made to feel guilty because you have a lot of professional ambition. 

18:17 - Katie Fenske (Host)
Right. 

18:18 - Alessandra Wall (Host)
That was a big one and and it goes back to what you and I were talking about I use it to educate my kids all the time and they are genuinely proud and I teach them a different model and there is their father's a physician, so there's certainly the model of go to school, do this, do this, get the degree, become a physician Although with AI, I'm not encouraging my kids to go into becoming a physician. 

18:40 - Katie Fenske (Host)
Oh, wow. 

18:43 - Alessandra Wall (Host)
Or there's this other model, there are these other ways of doing things and teaching them that you can actually love your job and invest time, not because you're under the thumb of the man who's trying to get you to work and like there's this corporate overlord who who's burning you out, but Got to do it till I retire. 

18:59 - Katie Fenske (Host)
Got to keep going. 

19:01 - Alessandra Wall (Host)
There's value in doing work that speaks to you. And then the third thing I've seen and this is for whether you're building your own business or whether you work in the corporate world the. I talk often about how important it is to have a really strong professional social network. The first version of my business, the one that was failing the coaching business. Part of it is because I thought I could just hang my shingle Dr Wall, you know, phd human expert and that that was going to be enough. I could do that I could have Instagram posts and I could create programs and have it on a website and that I would get business that way. I failed. Like my highest grossing year was $20,000 gross. 

19:49 - Katie Fenske (Host)
Like from what you were making before, you were like this isn't going to work. 

19:52 - Alessandra Wall (Host)
Well, and I and I burnt myself out when I came back to the game. What I discovered is actually you need to meet people. And as a therapist, you don't meet people like all. The people you work with are not people you can build secondary work relationships with. 

20:07 - Katie Fenske (Host)
Okay. 

20:08 - Alessandra Wall (Host)
The rules around that. So I, in order to build my business, my brand and now to grow business, have to spend a fair amount of time going to events where they're the kind of women I want to work with, or their bosses. I constantly speak to corporate women I certainly experienced this who say they feel like they have to make up for every minute that they spend away. Wow, so you go to an event at night, you're networking, but you know that when you come home, like before you go, you have to make sure the dinner's ready for everybody, everybody's set up. Maybe you're going to offer to do an extra driving of one kid to one sport to make up for the fact that you weren't there in a way that I still think today in heterosexual relationships. I don't think men feel that way. I don't think men who have to go to networking events or travel for business go because I've been traveling. I need to make sure that when I come home I pick up all the child carpooling duties for the next week to offset it. 

21:10
I had a client who was flying back from Japan for work. She's the primary breadwinner for her family and her husband called her when he saw that her plane landed, she's like, hey, do you mind stopping by the store and getting some bread for the kids, sandwiches for school? And they have, like whatever, a quarter market, like within walking distance of the house. And she did jet lagged coming back from however many hours 16 hours in an airplane, whatever. She stopped by the store, she grabbed the sandwich bread, she made the sandwiches Like that. To me is this huge challenge for most women, because it makes doing the things we need to build our corporate careers or our businesses so much more exhausting than they would normally even just need to travel for business or to go to evening networking events. 

22:06 - Katie Fenske (Host)
You still have that other other half of you that can't can't hand off. 

22:12 - Alessandra Wall (Host)
Was it hard, it was just me, but every time I go to events and I now I just mentioned it, no joke, everybody buddy there who's a parent, the moms, you see this like look of parent, the moms you see this like look of thank you for saying this out loud. 

22:28 - Katie Fenske (Host)
Yes, right because we've got to do both. We still have to do both. Was it hard for you because you said, like networking was very important? As an introvert, was that something that you had to like, come out of your like, make yourself do? 

22:43 - Alessandra Wall (Host)
yeah, yeah, I, yeah, yeah, I. Um. So again I'm, I'm super social, love people. You put me one-on-one in a room with somebody. I, I do. Fine. I was totally that kid who, when you saw the new kid come to school, I'd go walk and see them and make sure they were okay and introduce them to my peer group and whatever. 

23:03
You put me in a room with 50 strangers and I'm gonna be by the food or by the bar, yeah, and then I didn't know how to introduce myself, right, that's the other thing. You walk into this room, people are like, oh, what brings you here? I'd be trying to build a coaching business, but I started introducing myself as a therapist when it's not at all what I wanted to do. 

23:31
Uh, initially I would try to sell really hard, so it's like you're giving your resume to somebody and trying to convince them. So it was definitely a skill and and once I developed it for myself, I realized it's something I work on a lot with my clients actually that would be a good skill to actually. 

23:48 - Katie Fenske (Host)
That would be a good skill to practice. Okay, let's switch and talk a little bit about loving being a mom and loving being in parenthood. So you kind of talked a little bit about that, the distinction between loving being a mom and loving parenthood. 

23:57 - Alessandra Wall (Host)
Tell me a little bit about that there was a moment, let me think so. It was in the thick of trying to build version 1.0 of my coaching business. Luca must have been five, six Reese, my youngest was probably still a toddler, and I was miserable as a parent, right. I just I did not like parenthood. I did not like the limitations it placed on me. I didn't like, I didn't like the stereotypical role assignments. Again, like I, I guess I didn't give this context I was very much a good girl growing up. 

24:40
I was the responsible one, so I did everything responsibly, everything in the order you're supposed to. And it's only once I got kids that I'm like wait, I was in graduate school where my friends were starting to make money and traveling for fun. I, I didn't do all that. Traveling for fun, right. And then I was at a postdoc and you make pennies, right, you're like super cheap labor. So I couldn't like all these things that people had done, like I just went from one responsibility to the next. And I was so lucky because I think you asked me in in our questions we were talking in advance. How did I figure out this distinction? I went to a work event up in Seattle and spoke to a mom who was a physician and she had her private business and she's the first one who made that distinction. She hated being a parent. 

25:33
She's like I hate everything about this the responsibility, the being tied down but she's like I love my son and I love being his mom, and I think she felt it more acutely than I did, but at the time it was this, really, in terms of not feeling guilty, it was a really nice distinction. I'm like I loved being a mom. I loved taking my kids to the park in the middle of the day, like hanging upside down with them. That's about the time of my life where I stopped wearing skirts and dresses as much, stopped wearing skirts and dresses as much constantly right running after them and things. 

26:14
Uh, I love cuddling with them so much. I still like when I see parents with new babies. Oh, I know, if you're listening to this and you're a new mom, that it might feel like you're trapped under your infant lying on your belly. It's like the best thing in the world you won't miss that forced pause where you're like I can't move. 

26:24 - Katie Fenske (Host)
They fell asleep Right Right I loved all of those parts of parenthood, so being a mom, but I really didn't enjoy being a parent because I felt tied down by it. Right, I felt like that. There was a huge shift when I had my first son. You go from like I have all the freedom in the world to I can't leave the house because I have to feed you in 45 minutes. 

26:55
I remember my husband used to always like on a Friday night he would like pick me up on the way home from work. We'd go and grab dinner and then you know, hang out, do whatever. Go and grab dinner and then you know, hang out, do whatever. We had my son and one night he called me. He's like hey, I'll just pick up dinner on the way home. And I started bawling because I was like I can't go with you because it's too much work to take this like little newborn. But that was that moment of like our life is so different right now. Fast forward 10 years and it's, like you know in hindsight, like it was just a phase. You know we have freedom now, but I just felt this like I'm not the same person anymore and I've lost all that freedom and I wanted this. I wanted to be a mom and I love my, I love my kids, but it was a big adjustment. 

27:39 - Alessandra Wall (Host)
Yeah, well, I think it becomes, especially in the early phases. It suddenly defines you all, your friends who aren't having kids, in case you were wondering, like they don't like hanging out with you as much. It's not personal, it's that you're boring. Your whole energy is focused on this human being, whether they're six months or six years old, you're constantly distracted because you're, you're talking to your friend, but you're, you're what, you're making sure they're not killing them yep, yep. 

28:05 - Katie Fenske (Host)
Then they tripped it every five seconds yeah right, look at, look at mommy. 

28:12 - Alessandra Wall (Host)
And then, because you're spending so much time taking care of this kid like you have no idea what's really happening in the world, you have nothing interesting to talk about and there's this massive disconnect. So I think part of it is in the early phases, probably up until the age of five. 

28:28 - Katie Fenske (Host)
Yep. 

28:29 - Alessandra Wall (Host)
So all encompassing. And when I used to, after I got through my kids, I would tell women who were wondering about having children I'd say five years, that's all you need to know. Having children will slow your career down by five years. It won't stop it, it won't stall it, but it'll slow it down five years after the birth of your youngest kid. So if you have kids in a row for me it was seven and a half years once they start going to school at with regular, like none of this half day stuff right right full day school start regaining some momentum, but it's still not entirely the same thing, because you have to be present in the evening you have to things, you have to be present. 

29:12
If they're sick, it gets easier. And you're right, it is all phases there's so many pieces of that, those ages that I miss. And then there's some really cool like they're really cool parts of having teenage boys. 

29:30 - Katie Fenske (Host)
Yeah, I'm. I'm actually not like, uh, dreading it. I mean I'm a little worried because mine are a little challenging, but it also I am in that stage of my youngest just started full day school. So starting in September I felt that freedom come back a little bit, like I can get work done. I can come home from dropping them off and sit at my computer and, you know, do my emails and I've been working on a digital course that I'm finally at two years I've been wanting to do it and this September was like I'm going to do it now and I'm like in my baby testing right now. So just that feeling of like I have me back a little bit. At two o'clock I go and pick them up and then it's like it's all over, but it's that's a different feeling to know. Once they turn five you can kind of find yourself a little bit again you can kind of find yourself a little bit again. 

30:28 - Alessandra Wall (Host)
It's really interesting to me how much shame women experience and guilt they experience around normal reactions to their children, and I saw this both as a child psychologist and then later on I would work with with mothers who were going through postpartum depression. I am one of those people. I joke I don't have any skeletons in the closet, and it's not that I don't have skeletons, it's just that they're ambling around, right, they're just out. So I was always very open about the things that other people didn't talk about, partially because I refuse to feel shame for them. So I'm like I'm just going to put out there. 

31:04
You don't need to answer if you don't want to, but it's like have you ever wanted to shake your baby? Hell yes. There were so many moments when the kids were small and I thought how do teenage moms do this? How do they have the emotional control not to hurt their children? There have been more than one time where I've had to sit outside of the room bawling my eyes out, because I just want you to stop crying. 

31:30 - Katie Fenske (Host)
Yes. 

31:31 - Alessandra Wall (Host)
Yeah, cause I'm just so. 

31:33 - Katie Fenske (Host)
And then how guilty I used to feel about. I remember leaving my son in the bedroom one day to cry and now I'm like that was probably the healthiest thing I should have done for myself is just get away for a minute and then regroup. You're okay, he was fine, but I remember feeling like I'm the worst mom in the world. I cannot believe I can't handle his crying. 

31:51 - Alessandra Wall (Host)
Yeah, and at older ages it's. 

31:53 - Katie Fenske (Host)
I don't know they're still throwing temper tantrums. Oh my gosh yeah. 

31:58 - Alessandra Wall (Host)
You know, my kids my oldest will because they're in so many sports and I, I didn't want to put them in so many sports. They're in so many sports and I, I didn't want to put them in so many sports, nor did my husband. They just so happen to get into and they're really into it and they can manage their grades and have a social life at the same time. 

32:12
But I look at them like my job is. I am not an uber. My job is not to drive you all around and and luca, especially the oldest, will say things like everybody else's parents do it. I'm like good, get everybody else's parents do it. I'm like good, get everybody else's parents to drive you. Like that's not going to work on me. 

32:31
I'm still very much and I tried to raise my kids Like it was the nineties. I even when Luca was really small, I went and I walked to all my neighbors, Cause this is around the time where you'd hear about parents having CPS called on them for their kids walking to school alone. 

32:45 - Katie Fenske (Host)
Yes. 

32:46 - Alessandra Wall (Host)
Kidding me Like why, just get a little school alone at age seven. One kid would come. He'd ring your doorbell, you'd walk with him. You'd go to the next house, ring that kid's doorbell. You all walk to school. You'd come back, there'd be nobody home and you'd figure it out. 

32:58 - Katie Fenske (Host)
Yes. 

32:59 - Alessandra Wall (Host)
Right, you would summer vacations. The parents weren't around, they were working, so you? I didn't even have a microwave until I was a teenager, so you didn't figure out how to use the stove, because you had to eat yeah nobody was buying food. I grew up in France, especially by that point in time, like restaurants were something you did. 

33:14
That was special and there was one McDonald's in Paris at the time and one Burger King, and I lived outside of Paris, so I would have had to take the train to get to a fast food place. 

33:25 - Katie Fenske (Host)
Oh my gosh, oh my gosh. 

33:27 - Alessandra Wall (Host)
But there's so much guilt right that it's still like this expectation that we're supposed to be play date playmates to our kids and we're supposed to like be teachers. Still, and I think a lot of us are not cut out to be teachers and my heart goes out to every educator in this space because they have no authority to educate properly anymore. So if any of my kids' teachers are listening, I love you. Thank you so so much. 

33:57 - Katie Fenske (Host)
Right, they have so much on their plates right now, so much. 

34:01 - Alessandra Wall (Host)
To be a sports mom, to be super patient, to have a career, but not too much of a career. I just had to say it out loud, right? Like I'll tell my kids sometimes I love you, I don't like you. Right now you need to leak it out of my face. The psychologist says that's super healthy. 

34:21 - Katie Fenske (Host)
Okay, I you said it's okay Cause I have personally like I just need you not around me right now. Like my one was like starting to hit, he got mad, he's like, well, I'm going to punch you and I'm like, then don't be in the room with me, cause I, I don't want that, I don't. That doesn't make me feel good, so don't do that. 

34:38 - Alessandra Wall (Host)
My youngest has a D H, maybe with a D sometime, like the idea, idea of it being really compromising. His functioning isn't necessarily there, but when he gets really worked up like he'll have that thing where he struggles to take himself down, and he's been like this since he was an infant. 

34:58
Whereas luca I could put in a time out and he would soothe, he would self-suck, reese would just sit there and scream help me, help me, help me, help me, and I would look at him. I go, I'll do breathing with you, I'll do whatever, but you need, you need to get yourself pulled together, like I can't be the person who fixes you for you, because that doesn't like. Again, dr wall says that doesn't work right. Kids don't learn how to do this on their own. They will always rely on external sources to soothe. That's problematic, but we had an argument two weeks ago over my standards for cleaning the kitchen, which he thought were ridiculous, and oh my gosh. 

35:38 - Katie Fenske (Host)
Yes, and he lost it and he got. 

35:42 - Alessandra Wall (Host)
He lost it like he was bawling and then it was everything but the kitchen sink, right. He started talking about all the other things he's unhappy about in his life and I just stopped him. I said I'm not having this conversation with you right now, so you need you. I'm not that I'm not willing to have this conversation. 

35:58
I cannot have it with you when you're in this state. I said you can be angry at me, I'm fine with that. You cannot be disrespectful. You cannot talk to me on that tone. Yes, and I'm like you're not even addressing the issue that started all of this. I'm gonna go downstairs and do a puzzle. When you feel ready to have a conversation with me about how angry you are with me, properly, I'll have it. And he was so mad but I left him bawling his eyes out on the floor in the kitchen in a corner, and about 20 minutes later he came down. 

36:28
He's like I'm ready to have the conversation with you and then I stopped, like we sat on the ground and gave him a hug, we talked, we talked about all of it, but there are, like there are these things that are so difficult to do as parents. You have to have so much energy just to not. I mean, I was having a good day that day because I was yelling at my kid about like pulling himself together. 

36:51 - Katie Fenske (Host)
Yeah, and how much like they can trigger you. Like I'm human too and just hearing this constant like screaming I'm like that triggers me. It's a lot, yeah, okay. So, talking about parenthood, let's hear about some of your burnt pancake moments. So, I mean, my message is we're all figuring this out together. We all make mistakes. Can you tell us any stories or moments of imperfections that you've learned from? 

37:20 - Alessandra Wall (Host)
Beyond the ones where they're really small and you're nursing them and you fall asleep and they fall and they bump their head on the ground. We've all been there. We've all been there, Totally done that. Beyond the when they're really small, having to go sit outside. Yeah, yeah. I mean I've had moments where I said I'm a perimenopausal woman now, like I'm 47, but this thing kicked in at 44. 

37:44 - Katie Fenske (Host)
I'm about to turn 44. 

37:46 - Alessandra Wall (Host)
It's yep, I'm already kicked in early. So just so you know. But I'm like my patience is very different. Oh God, I've made so many mistakes with my kids. Which ones I mean? There? There are plenty like okay. So there's silly ones that I was thinking, uh, my whole thing about not driving. I have some regrets about that now because there's schools that I was like I'm not driving to that school all the time, I'm not dealing with that, and now in hindsight I'm like, damn it, I really should have driven them to that french immersion school, because now I have french kids who can't speak french. I'll tell you, my biggest burnt pancake moments with my children really center around being so tired and just yelling back at them. 

38:32 - Katie Fenske (Host)
Yep. 

38:33 - Alessandra Wall (Host)
Right. I don't believe that all conflict needs to happen in this voice. It just can't. It's not natural. It's not normal and it's not a good model for most people. 

38:43 - Katie Fenske (Host)
Thank you for saying that, Because that whole gentle parenting thing is like oh, that's torture on having the conversations they need to have. 

38:53 - Alessandra Wall (Host)
And conflict is really important. And I'll tell you, as a psychologist, when we would see adults who were massively conflict avoided to a point where it was problematic, I could they usually fell into one of two categories. One they had a super explosive household where there was problematic I could. They usually fell into one of two categories. One they had a super explosive household where there was constant yelling, constant anger and they never saw resolution of fights. The other one were these kids who are in these households where they're like oh no, my parents never fought, they never argued, so they never got to see what that, what it looks like, resolve that resolve the argument, and so when people raise their voice or yell, it's for them, it's super catastrophic, because they've never seen it. 

39:31
And so, as adults, they did it. But I would say there are times where I will lose my patience, and I know it's not a choice. It's the equivalent of when my mom used to spank me, and she was spanking me because she was frustrated, not because she was trying to teach me something. I remember one day when the kids were small, they weren't listening to me and I was at the bottom of the stairs. They were at the top of the stairs and I'm like I'm going to yell now in my head, I'm going to yell. 

40:00
But I was very calm at the time and I used the biggest voice I could which wasn't shrill, was very calm at the time and I used the biggest voice I could which wasn't shrill, and it scared them so much. They both jumped and then started crying and I wasn't upset at myself then because I'm like that was a very calm choice. I'm like they're not. I've asked nicely, I've asked firmly. I've given nobody's listening. 

40:19 - Katie Fenske (Host)
I'm not going to walk up there and yank them. 

40:22 - Alessandra Wall (Host)
I'm going to choose to use this voice versus and I have so much empathy for my mom now but that I'm at the end of my rope and I'm yelling at you. Now we're perseverating on this point, not because I'm trying to do something for you, but because I'm just so fed up. I need this release. I'm just so fed up. 

40:45 - Katie Fenske (Host)
I need this release. I feel like I've gotten that point a lot, like I just need and I don't stop, like I can't stop lecturing and I'm sure my son's just like, okay, yeah, you're just like repeating yourself, but I'm like I just need to get my point across, that I don't want you talking back. 

41:01 - Alessandra Wall (Host)
And yeah, I tell them that now. So when I'm in a good day and I'm having one of those moments, I'll say I know I'm repeating myself, but I'm so mad. You just need to sit there and I need to like repeat the same point in seven different ways because I'll recognize, like the way it feels in my body. Yeah, that's a good day on a bad day. I'm caught in that loop and I can't even articulate to them that I realize I'm repeating myself and it's unreasonable, but I expect them to listen to it, because they're part of the reason I feel I'm feeling the way I am. 

41:35
Um, can I give a counter to something moment? There are times where my children will do things that will drive me nuts, like every time they argue about not leaving on time because one is super focused on getting places early and the other one dilly dallys. 

41:52 - Katie Fenske (Host)
Oh, that's a great pair. 

41:55 - Alessandra Wall (Host)
And I will get mad right Because no matter what I do, one of them is angry with me. If I side with the one, if I'm like we're, we're not late, we're okay. 

42:05
The one who wants to be ultra punctual is like you always side with him. If I side with the one who's being unreasonably punctual, the other one's like we don't need to leave now. I don't know why you're helping him now. I've started telling them. When I get mad, I talk to them about the unfairness of it to them. I'm like this is not. What you just did to me is not fair. So my cortisol levels are high. My adrenaline is high. I am upset at this point in time. You just got to a place where I am starting my morning and instead of having a good morning, I have to be in this state, right? Sorry if I'm triggering anything for anybody. 

42:48 - Katie Fenske (Host)
No, I told you five times to put your shoes on, Like why can't we have a calm morning? 

42:53 - Alessandra Wall (Host)
And I really like actually getting to a point where I'm teaching them that they have, that they need to be cognizant of how their dynamics and interactions impact other people, that it's not just well, well, those are your feelings, that's up to you, right. It's like no, no, you create a dynamic pattern. I agree like there are things I could do better to not get caught up in this, like saying just do what I say, or you can walk to school, I don't really care, it's two miles, you can make it, you'll be late, the tardy will be on you, not on me, and you can go to saturday to make it up, which is where I would ideally like to get. But at least to start teaching them to take ownership for the impact that they're having on other people. 

43:34 - Katie Fenske (Host)
Yeah, yeah. And how one feels versus the other. Yeah, that's awesome. Oh, so many good insights here. If we wanted to find you and learn more about you, where could we look? 

43:47 - Alessandra Wall (Host)
There are two places. One is our website, which is noteworthyincco or com I actually own both domains now and there's a ton of information and there are free resources on there and it talks about what we do. So that's a great, great place. If you want up-to-date musings on what's going on in my head, linkedin is pretty good, okay, and then, with your permission, I will share a log on like a sign up for my newsletter, because, perfect, because I write. So I write two. I write one weekly, which is called Monday Mindset Resets, where I usually think of what I need that day or like things that have come up, and I'll just write an email about like a mindset shift and the context for the mindset shift and send, invite people to take an action differently. And then every two weeks, I'll send a longer one, on Thursdays as well, which usually delves into some issue in more depth with more context. I love writing. I actually really love writing. 

44:55 - Katie Fenske (Host)
That's awesome. Yeah, okay, I'm going to include all of those in the show notes, so I'll get those from you and have links for all of those. Thank you so much for coming on and chatting have links for all of those. 

45:08 - Alessandra Wall (Host)
Thank you so much for coming on and chatting. It was really nice to talk about being a mom and to talk about being a mom with somebody who gets it. 

45:15 - Katie Fenske (Host)
Yeah, I felt so many times where I'm like, yes, yes, that was me the other day. Yes, that was me and that is okay, that's normal yeah it just is right. 

45:24 - Alessandra Wall (Host)
It makes them resilient. 

45:26 - Katie Fenske (Host)
Absolutely so good. Well, thank you so much for coming on. I hope you enjoyed this momversation with Alessandra. I know I felt inspired by how she was able to grow her business and also just felt like I could just relate to all the stories she shared about motherhood. So if you enjoyed it as much as I did, I would love it If you left me a five-star review. Subscribe to my YouTube channel. Did all the things to support the podcast so we can keep it growing and get ready for next week's conversation. So until next week, I do want to remind you that everyone burns the first pancake, so just keep flipping.