95. From IVF Struggles to Parenting Triumphs: Insights with Tamron Hall

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Emmy award-winning TV host and best-selling author Tamron Hall shares her heartfelt journey into motherhood through IVF. With candor and warmth, Tamron opens up about becoming a mother later in life, the emotional and physical challenges she faced, and the power of sharing one's story. 

Her motherhood experiences inspired her new children's book, "Harlem Honey," and offer valuable lessons for parents and children alike, illustrating the beauty found in life's imperfections.

We also explore parenting themes such as nurturing children's confidence and breaking traditional gender roles. Tamron's personal anecdotes reveal the challenges and triumphs of raising respectful and confident boys in today's world.

By sharing her experiences, we aim to inspire parents to balance career and family life while trusting their instincts. As we celebrate the launch of "Harlem Honey," we invite you to embrace the chaos and comedy of parenthood, much like flipping a perfectly imperfect pancake.

Get Tamron's book "Harlem Honey: The Adventures of a Curious Kid" HERE

📺 Watch the episode on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLOpw5ui4uxJHx0tLFVtpnfSkpObfc4d-K

You can find Katie at:
website: burntpancakes.com
YouTube: @burnt.pancakes
Instagram: @burntpancakeswithkatie
Email: katie@burntpancakes.com

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Transcript

00:09 - Katie Fenske (Host)
Hello, hello and welcome back to the Burn Pancakes podcast. I'm your host, Katie Fenske, and this is the podcast where we embrace the messiness of motherhood, laugh through the chaos and I remind moms that everyone burns their first pancake. Now, moms, we give so much to everyone else, so why not give ourselves the gift of better sleep? That's why I am obsessed with today's sponsor, Cozy Earth's bamboo sheets and pajamas. They are pure luxury. Their bamboo sheets are so comfortable, breathable and cooling, keeping me comfy all night, Because waking up sweaty, no, thank you. And their pajamas they are lightweight but cozy, making me feel like I am getting a spa day at home, even though I'm just surviving bedtime routines. Now, tall moms, listen up. Their pajamas come in tall sizes and, as someone who's 5'9", this is a game changer. Cozy Earth is all about turning your home into a haven of rest and relaxation. Their durable, pill-free fabric and 100 night sleep trial prove they stand by their quality. So do something for you. Visit CozyEarthcom and use code pancakes for up to 40% off sheets, towels, pajamas and more. Sleep better with Cozy Earth. 

01:28
Today I have an incredible guest for you Emmy, award-winning TV host, best-selling author and mom Tamron Hall. You know her from the Tamron Hall Show, but today we're diving into her journey as a mom, her experience with IVF and her brand new children's book, Harlem Honey, inspired by her son, Moses. Tamron shares the heartfelt story behind the book, the lessons she hopes kids and parents will take away from it, and how she juggles motherhood with her powerhouse career Plus. We talk about embracing new experiences, mom guilt and, of course, the inevitable mom fails, as we have. Trust me, you are going to love this momversation, Tamron, welcome to the podcast. 

02:12 - Tamron Hall  (Guest)
I am so happy to be here. Katie, Thank you for having me. 

02:15 - Katie Fenske (Host)
I love having you on. I'm excited to talk about motherhood, your new book, all the things. Well, let's start off with your son. You had your son later in life through IVF. Can you share a little bit about that journey and what advice you give to others who are going through that? 

02:32 - Tamron Hall  (Guest)
Oh, wow. You know, I wish there was a one size fits all advice box for IVF, right, but what we know is that's not the case for me, katie, I met my husband later in life, as some might say. I like to call it late to the party. How many of us? Yeah, listen, I was at a lot of parties and then I got to the party I was supposed to be at and we met early on. We immediately started to talk about our journey as parents, what that would look like, and we were open to any and all versions of this. 

03:04
I'm very lucky that my brother and his wife have four children. The oldest is 27 and he just got engaged, and the young, 16, and they have been like my children. On Mother's Day, they always write me cards as their bonus mom, aunt, and they've gone on every vacation with me. So this connection to children and family is so deeply buried in me. It's truly why I call my audience TamFam, because I don't think family lightly and many of the people who are my closest friends right now are family, meaning I met them as friends and we became chosen family. So for me and my husband, we're looking at what options were available for us and going back to the core of your question, it's so layered for me. 

03:49
I remember, katie, I live in New York City and I literally one day, once we were married and decided we were going to commit to this, I Googled, you know, like best IVF clinic in New York, exactly, and I got what you'd expect it's like sponsors and a bunch of other weird names and then I see this particular clinic. I look it up, you know great reviews, um, according to what I saw online and I went inside this office one day like no makeup you know, I have a little hat on, I'm gonna see what this is like and I went in and there were probably 160 people and I mean this is like high dollar fancy schmancy, you know, not a, not an inexpensive, inexpensive place. And there are people no celebrities, I mean these are just people looking for help. And I walked in, I got off the elevator and I just started to cry and it felt and looked like like the last station on the hope train and it was heartbreaking for me and it was so sad because we were all hoping for the same thing and different races, different ages, some people alone, some people spouse, you know, just you, never. I didn't know the individual stories, but I knew we were all in that room hoping for this outcome and it was so, um, such a big moment for me and I left immediately without even seeing the doctor and I had, like you know, they'd arranged by then for me to go in the back and I left. 

05:27
I just thought, you know, I don't want to go through this. This is, this, will lead nowhere. I truly thought that, and what sustained me and what kept me going was the transparency that you offer, that I hope that I offer. I started talking to other women Right. I started talking to other women Right. I started talking to other people. I got other names, I got into other conversations and this hope started to become bigger and it became real. I started going to acupuncture. 

05:56
I looked at traditional and non-traditional, you know, and I also quickly discovered that there are a lot of people going through this who are not talking about it. 

06:06
So me, my advice is feel safe around those you are comfortable with and you will be surprised how many have not told you what they're going through. 

06:19
Take in advice I shared with Savannah Guthrie. She's the person who eventually gave me the doctor that I ended up using right. Listen to your body and understand that you're on this journey, but more than that, you are not a failure if this doesn't happen. That's not me trying to like pat you on the back. That's me telling you. I've done the work to accept that I was not a failure. My body was not failing me. If this didn't happen and so many people one of my first guests was on my pilot of my show was Gabrielle Union and she had her daughter. She was about to have her daughter, I guess, and it was just on the, and I said would you be okay if this didn't happen? And she said I'm not ready to answer that question and I was like, oh gosh. And so that's what I mean by the journey, the medicine, traditional and non-traditional all those things matter, but what matters most is you understanding that you are not a failure if this doesn't happen, right, right. 

07:34 - Katie Fenske (Host)
I bet that's something so many women struggle with because it is way more common than is talked about. 

07:41 - Tamron Hall  (Guest)
Yeah, it is, it is, and the joy, though, on the other side, of when you get the call right, and and for me it happened on the day that we shot the pilot of the show. 

07:50
Oh gosh, I know it's crazy. I was gone and we had we've gone through multiple rounds of IVF. You know, I, I, I was on tour, um, basically starting to promote the show, and it was like a year and a half of like really, truly, we jokingly say my, my child has many fathers. Because my friends are giving me like injections, because I can't give myself injections, I couldn't work my way up to. God bless those who can't. I couldn't. 

08:16
So my hairstylist, johnny, uh, we were leaving an interview with Cher in the back of an Uber in Vegas and I'm like my shot, like what? The Uber guy? I'm like I cause you know you have to do it. On a certain time, when I was in uh, I think it was in Dallas and my mom was not in Texas at the time, she was traveling I called a dear friend. I said you got to meet me at the hotel. I land at 10 o'clock. You got to give me the shot. I can't do it. 

08:41
And then, finally, just out of sheer desperation, once I was in Peoria, illinois, and I'd given a speech. I'm in the bathroom, you know, and it was a small, small airport, so there's only like one bathroom and it's and I'm in there and I'm lining up my ingestion and I'm like, oh my God, they're going to come in here and arrest me there. What is she doing? That was the only time that I worked my way up to doing it, because I had no gosh, nobody around. So you know it's colorful journey. It's ones of highs and lows and emotions, but I think it is so critical wherever you are on this journey. If you're just thinking about it now, I have so many young women in my life who are in their thirties who are freezing their eggs. You know, know what the process is, but surround yourself with people you feel safe to talk about. This journey with Bottling it up has an impact on your body and I think that's an important component of it. 

09:36 - Katie Fenske (Host)
Yeah, yeah, oh man. I remember talking to someone once who had gone through years of IVF. She and I asked her I was like do you look at your son now every single day as a blessing and just think like? And she's like, of course I do, but I'm also a mom and there are days when he drives me crazy too. So it's like I have that perspective of like we tried so hard for you, but I'm also a mom and you're so human. 

10:05 - Tamron Hall  (Guest)
I have a picture of my son right after blastocysts went in you know Okay. 

10:10
Yeah, and it is. It's framed and it says love at first sight and that's a unique journey for parents who go through IVF that we actually get to see, you know, our children at this earliest formation of cells coming together that eventually leads to life, and so it is funny. But I'll tell you my husband, all of the needles that I used, my husband, I'm ready to throw them away. My son is about to be six and I think it's kind of gross and my husband's like no, we're keeping them. So we've moved twice and carried them around. I showed them once on the show. 

10:45
We did a one hour special on IVF and we talk a lot about fertility and the journey. We just did something I'd never done before and the 30 years I've been a journalist it was always a goal. We actually took people through what it's like to really freeze your eggs, because people casually say that I'm sorry, I live in New York, there's someone's alarm that's gone off, I'm in the heart of it. We're good. We're good, no, but we had a beautiful young woman, a guest on our show, talked about the whole process and people don't realize that freezing your eggs is IVF. You're just not the last stage, right? 

11:18 - Katie Fenske (Host)
And that's a lot on your body, that's a lot on your emotion. 

11:21 - Tamron Hall  (Guest)
A lot on your emotions. So many women who are not in relationships at that time but want children go through the process and so that means you're alone, you're doing the shots yourself and you're on this emotional rollercoaster and I do feel that it is fantastic and so many companies now are covering it and insurance and all these great opportunities. But you know, being realistic, of what that is like. Some people do it, no problem, they go and work. Others need that extra support. But she really took people through the process on my show and so many folks who hear the phrase freezing your eggs suddenly like wait, what? That's what. It is Right, I understand it's not scary, but giving a true look at IVF, egg freezing, sperm testing We'll talk a lot about that. Like you know, many cases it is the man who should go in first to be tested. 

12:16 - Katie Fenske (Host)
Right, that's probably the easiest thing to check, right? Isn't it a lot? 

12:19 - Tamron Hall  (Guest)
easier. Well, you know, emotionally, a lot of guys don't want to go through it, true? No, I don't want to. You know I I mean, I have had two incredible people, one of which is my husband. Tell me that you know. They go up to the room and they're like hey, awkward. But you know it's hard to get guys to talk about that amongst guys. Oh for sure, yeah. 

12:43 - Katie Fenske (Host)
Yeah, all of for sure. 

12:44 - Tamron Hall  (Guest)
Yeah, yeah, all of that is part of it. All of it is part of it. I think you know, again, being a mom is a blessing and having my son truly. When I say this kid saved my life. What I mean by that is that it gave me perspective. My mother says to me often she just turned 75. She said I'm on a Zoom call with my producers and he reached over and hung it up and thought it was hilarious. I'm like you need to get out. It's been two weeks of spring break. 

13:13 - Katie Fenske (Host)
So that's two weeks. Oh goodness, mine's coming up and I'm like, oh. 

13:18 - Tamron Hall  (Guest)
I'm talking to you because he's at swim. You know I love the convenience of being able to communicate like this at home and not be. This is my home. That is actually my kid's book. This is my reading room. You just moved the shoes out of the background. 

13:32 - Katie Fenske (Host)
I have a sneaker that ended up in my reading room that I don't know how and it smells, because he's now six and it's getting oh, just wait, just wait, boys are stinky. 

13:40 - Tamron Hall  (Guest)
If you smell a vision right now, you'd be on the ground. But yeah, no, it's great. But yeah, I even with our show and to your point about this is a blessing. But then you're a parent, and a mom just like anybody else. With my show, I've been very intentional about how we talk about parenthood, how we, we handle the conversation because, like any relationship, it's complicated and that's okay. It's not full of love and wins and all of that. 

14:11 - Katie Fenske (Host)
Yep, yep. And on days where I feel like, oh God, I was the worst mom ever, hey, I'm human, I'm human, and, and they're human, and they're driving me crazy. 

14:20 - Tamron Hall  (Guest)
That's how you know. That's what inspired my children's book. You know, really, we my son is what we all call the pandemic baby, when I feel like all of us are pandemic babies, to be honest with you. But you know, he was just approaching his first year and he'd just gone to his first like little baby gym class. He was in this little music class we're on the road, singing and learning all these little things and then, boom, he was inside with just the two of us and his dad and my husband and we're home and I'm taping the show and, honestly, katie, I didn't even know kids got off formula after the first year. 

14:54
I don't know why. I didn't know that and I'm like what, we don't need formula? And I'm trying to. You know, we're in New York City, I'm trying to order milk and everything is shut down and I'm just like, oh my gosh, and I've pureed my last vegetable that I had before. Yes, it was crazy a while, and then we're inside and but, but you know, even in that moment, or those moments, many, many moments, I was able to see things that I didn't see before. You know, my son got his first tooth. I was doing the Oscars red carpet and my mom was babysitting and she sends a picture. She, she's like, look, and I'm like, really, your tooth waited for me to leave, to come out Right, it always does, it does Right. But now I was in the home and first steps and all of these things that I likely would not have seen. I had to see the sign. 

15:39
Going back to the it's complicated part of this, though, when everything reopened, my son didn't attend his first birthday party until he was two, and we walked into the birthday party and this kid, who was super confident at home, super exploratory at home. I like to call it cocky swagger in the home, hiding behind me at this birthday party and I'm going like dude, who, what is? Who are you? And I remember touching his hand. His little hand was sweating and they were doing the freeze dance and he didn't. And this was the thing we did, all of this at home he did not want to do at the birthday party. So I felt, to your point, I was like I'm a horrible mom. My kid is the only kid who is not over there dancing. And I felt like everyone was looking at me and I was getting like panicky and I just thought, oh, my gosh, what is going on? Oh, boy. And then we went home and he was like talking about the party and I thought, wait a minute. So he's present, he's aware he wants in, but he doesn't know how to get in there. 

16:43
And I started to really, you know, up at night reading every article. You know, I have a dear friend, tova Klein, who is a child development expert. I'm conferring with her and we talked about what does that look like? How do you inspire a child to face that fear? Right, he doesn't have the language, he's only two. I don't want to get out there and go explore. We've learned that, for example, telling children, you know, big boys don't cry or big girls don't cry is not productive. So what is the productive way to have someone face their fear or change right? This is a new environment, new people, new faces, new places, without saying get out there, you know face. 

17:30
He's like two or three, is looking at me like I'm good, let's go back home, right? And so I started to use curiosity as a conversation starter Hmm, what's that there? Oh, what is that door? Oh, I wonder what she you know? What's that there? Oh, what is that door? Oh, I wonder what she you know. And really using adventure as this secret weapon of building up his confidence. And that is the inspiration for my children's book. That's why I'm in, you know, the book is Harlem Honey, the Adventures of a Curious Kid, and Harlem is any neighborhood right to me. We happen to live in Harlem at the time, but it's my hometown of Luling, texas, population two me and my mom, you know, and it represents for me, katie. The first exposure our children have is the neighborhood before they go to school. Right, you think about it. It's like. A lot of times we go home to daycare, home to school, home to kindergarten, home to the first step out. The home is your neighborhood, no matter where it is. 

18:30 - Katie Fenske (Host)
Yeah, I looked over your book and it reminds me a lot. I live in Southern California. You know cities everywhere, but we live near an old town and I grew up here and now my kids are growing up here and I see them walking around the fountain that I used to walk around, or going to the same statue and playing on our walks and it is a big part of our life. And you're right, like this is what their first couple of years were. We'd walk down to the circle, we'd go play at the fountain and it's a big part of their world. 

19:02 - Tamron Hall  (Guest)
It helps build the confidence outside of the home and it gives them a chance to articulate that curiosity. One of my fondest memories early on, after I went through the guilt of like I've got the kid at the birthday party who doesn't want you know, I thought very clearly on how can I support him right? How? Because you want to save them right, I wanted to save him Swear, to lighten up my baby's life, you know the bear is coming for you. 

19:28
But I was like, okay, that doesn't serve him well, and we would walk around the neighborhoods and one of the cutest things, we lived in a row of townhomes. He very vividly one day discovered that every home had its own address and with the townhomes are right on the front and he's like, wait, they have an address, wait. And then he discovered there was a rhythm to it. You know, in every other letter. And then he discovered there was a rhythm to it, you know, in every other letter. And it was just like this great moment of something so simple that we take for granted. Every day we write down our address, we put it in emails, we type it out when we're shopping on Amazon. It's right there, you know, and every kid seeing something that we take for granted as this biggest moment of curiosity. 

20:06
So we lived in that moment. We came home and then we drew, like what? The little townhouse village on this big white paper and we created addresses with it. So it's two things. It's, you know, reminding myself of patience. Right, that's another gift that he's given me. It's easy to say, okay, we're in a hurry, we're in a hurry, let me put your socks on so we can get out the door, versus letting him put those socks in his motor skills and his fingers. 

20:33
And the same with his mind, the same with curiosity, releasing the idea of parenting as answering his questions, instead replacing it with giving him time, through adventure and curiosity, to answer those questions himself. And that's a little bit of what this boy named Moses in my book is doing. He's finding the answers. Clearly, he's traveling and walking down the street with his buddy. That's not gonna happen, but it is a reminder of the time that we can afford them to find the answers themselves, and what we get in return is a reminder of what patience means. 

21:14 - Katie Fenske (Host)
Right, right. Well, I love the story. Harlem honey, what inspired you Like? When did you decide I want to write a children's book? 

21:22 - Tamron Hall  (Guest)
You know, honestly, it you know much like my career, my whole life. Exactly in the middle of the night I wake up and I said, you know, like the IVF journey, I started talking with other people. And the middle of the night I wake up and I said, you know, like the IVF journey, I started talking with other people and I somebody said, oh, my son's shy, my daughter's shy. My mom said to me, wait a minute, you were shy and I'm like me and she's like no. And I and I started saying, oh gosh, you know, I remember this moment where my mom put me in a little pageant, you know, to get my confidence up, and I was on stage. I'm like now, meanwhile modeling up a storm at home in my three piece suit, you know. 

21:57
But I get to this stage and I was quiet and even now my friends describe me as a social loner. I was just at. I was. I mean, this is gonna sound like I'm name dropping here, but I was just at the opening night for Othello on Broadway. And there I am and I was like I'm not talking to anybody, I'm a fish out of water. 

22:17
First of all, how did I get this invitation? I never feel like I'm worthy to be in the room and I'm certainly not my husband's like go say hi, even my red carpet pictures. I'm like like what's wrong with you? And I said you know, I still get nervous. You know a lot of those folks I'd interviewed and I get nervous and I'm uncertain of myself. And this is a new you know space, a new place. And now I've got to walk in and present myself with confidence, when I did not feel very confident yesterday and my son's book or our book that was inspired by my son kind of came to me through talking with, especially, other parents who want to have the conversation about fear, which is natural. Everyone is afraid of something or a situation, and how do we support our children. And so I thought, okay, well, you know what, let me reveal what we're going through, just like with IVF. Let me reveal a little bit about our lives and then in the process we find common threads with other people. 

23:17 - Katie Fenske (Host)
Yeah, love, love, love that. Do you feel like I'm jumping back a little bit to these pandemic babies, because I have a five-year-old? So mine was born three months before everything shut down. So we had a little normalcy and then it was like you can't go anywhere. Do you feel like cause I know you mentioned your son would say mom, I want to go home? Do you feel like they experienced more of that fear of going out? 

23:45 - Tamron Hall  (Guest)
We. You know, like I, of course, I look at his peers and I say, gosh, that kid's running around, and you know. But my kid was reading at three. So I was like I don. I look at his peers and I say, gosh, that kid's running around, and you know, but my kid was reading at three. So I was like I don't know what the balance is. I guess he's not just reading away. 

23:59
You know, I don't know, but I'll tell you and I'm happy you asked it. No one's ever asked me that, by the way but, my son is definitely a I want to go home. Or if you say to him, I the other night, so you want to go get pizza out or you want to, he said let's order at home. Just a homebody, it's a homebody. 

24:17
Or maybe it is that, that, that comfort of home yeah implanted in them in a different way than before, because truly his world would have been traveling to Texas, traveling to Chicago, philadelphia, traveling with mom. 

24:33
I mean, his dress, my half of my dressing room, was his nursery. So the world and life he was supposed to have in my mind changed greatly. And to say that it hasn't had an impact, I think would be foolish of society to say that. You know, without getting into all of the other, you know politics of it, just the natural human nature of it, right, if you grew up in California and you ended up instead the journey had you growing up in Michigan, you'd be a different person, right? Our environments change us and so they were put in a different environment. So, naturally for me, I believe that has some impact and it doesn't have to be negative, no, it has to be. But to not acknowledge the possibility of an imprint of change, I feel would be foolish. My son, you know, with his shyness, you know we had right after. You know he fell in love with kids, bob, during that time but not that we emerge, you know, and it's with the kids Bob. 

25:30
And one day he said, you know, he fell in love with kids Bob during that time. But not that we emerge, you know, and it's with the kids Bob. And one day he said, you know, I want to go see kids Bob live. And now everything's up and running. This is like, I guess, last year, a year and a half ago, I said, okay, fine, we got tickets, we drove all the way out to like New Jersey somewhere I'm missing the turn Pike and then we get there, okay never thought that kids bop would be on my list of concerts to see in my life I'm like I'm like okay with my clear bag, you know, I'm like looking for clear mom bag and all that other stuff. 

25:57
And so we get there and they're I mean, I can't even tell you how many people there were but he's cool, he's super cool walks to the through and gives a ticket and we scan the ticket. I should say get through. We get closer and closer to his seat and he's like I want to go home. And I said you want to go home? I said, but you've been wanting to come, you know he goes. No, I want to go, I want to go. And I said, okay, let's just take a beat, take a deep breath. What? What do you could? I just want to go home. I said, well, let'smy. And I was like you know, listen, it's okay and let's wait it out, let's just. You know, of course, part of me I wanted to grab my kid and get in the car and go home, baby, you know, we don't want a moment of discomfort, but I knew that what was on the other side was fun, right, I knew if I could just get him. So I waited and again that mom, guilt of like everyone sees me standing here and he's frozen and what's wrong, what's going on. That's Tamron Hall and I was like I can't care about that, I've done myself out of this. So eventually he inched closer and closer to his seat. Before I know it, he's doing his Elaine dance, as I call it, cause he dances like Elaine from whatever. And I'm like, whew, we made it it right. 

27:10
Yeah, months later kids bought live uh, they had a show at the beacon theater and in New York City and took him and he's like the first in line. He took a couple of friends with him. He's dancing and they're having a good time. We were lucky enough to meet the kids bop kids at the end of the show and he's like great show guys. Oh, look at you. 

27:29
You know that on the other side of fear that's for all of us, right? Yeah, side of fear launching a business, raising a family, whatever it is, starting a podcast when people like podcasts, right, I'm sure there were many fearful days and nights of how do I get this going and what if it fails? So, whether you are 102 or just two, learning that on the other side of fear is often fun and that's what the book is about. You know this change in this kid's life. In the book he's moved from Texas to Harlem. It sounds different, it smells different, it looks different, it is different. But learning that on the other side is fun, and that's what the book is really about. 

28:14 - Katie Fenske (Host)
Love that and the message is home, and I think I know as a boy mom, you might feel this too. I always want my boys to know like they can come home. Wherever we are, it's not the house, it's just you can come home, and that's why I'm not too sad if their home bodies, like me, either spread your wings, but this, this, is always your home. 

28:34 - Tamron Hall  (Guest)
And I love that you said that because you know so much of you know. When people see the book, they instantly obviously see two kids who have brown skin and that was important. But it was more important that you saw a little boy on the cover of this book when I was looking for social, emotional books right to kind of guide my son through being able to talk about his feelings big feelings yeah, a lot of them were character driven. It was a dinosaur talking about his feelings or a car talking about interesting but not a lot of physical forms of boys. 

29:08 - Katie Fenske (Host)
Well, because boys sometimes can't have feelings and they can't be emotional. 

29:14 - Tamron Hall  (Guest)
And so for me it was important just as we support children when it comes to tears right Writing without tears and all that is the same thing with this very, and I wanted him to be precocious and I wanted him to be confident, but I also wanted him to have this big feeling of fear. 

29:30
So when you see the illustrations, he's grimacing on the porch, that's okay, him to be confident, but I also wanted him to have this big feeling of fear. So when you see the illustrations, he's grimacing on the porch, that's okay too, you know. But I wanted children both, you know, kids who identify as girls and identify to see this little boy, a confident little boy, find himself in a situation where he was not as confident. And that was important to me because I, you know, I'm. I feel that I've greatly benefited from the empowering messages that I can do anything. I told someone, you know, my big moment was one day we were talking about raising girls and somebody said, you know, yes, raise some little badasses. And I was like, yes, if you said that same sentence with poor boy, that takes on a whole different meaning. 

30:12 - Katie Fenske (Host)
Totally. 

30:13 - Tamron Hall  (Guest)
And so why can't we do both? Why can't we have empowered girls and empower boys, and neither of it be toxic or or or putting them in a box? 

30:25
but I want my son to benefit from having a mom who feels empowered most of the time, not all the time it's a journey but, you know, also recognizing to the world that boys aren't scary, that boys with confidence aren't scary, that boys can have alliances with girls like he does in this story, but not leaving our boys behind. And in a million years I never expected that was going to be a part of this journey. I just never. Because, listen, I'm on the field now and I'm on the field of the team that happens to have this little boy and there are things I never, ever thought about. My nephew, as I said, is 27. Wonderful kid was star football player and I wasn't in the home every day to experience what that journey was like for this young man. But I know he's now engaged to this beautiful Southern California and they're getting married. 

31:19
But I don't want the world to see him as scary. I don't want people to see Moses as scary or any boy. It seems statistically that you know, 1 million fewer boys are graduating from high school. You know the workplace is greatly changed and so many boys are feeling left out of the conversation. And, if I can be a part of through my platform, through this children's book, through being an empowered woman, say we can do both or let's try, because we want women to feel that they deserve to be in the room, that we should be treated equally. All of those things I benefited those things, yeah, but I on this, funny enough, as life is journey, I end up with this kid who is a boy and I don't want him not to be able to be afforded grace. Um, I don't want him to feel like he can't crawl up in the bed and say I want to be home. 

32:11
You know, I have those soft edges that he deserves to have. 

32:17 - Katie Fenske (Host)
Right. Raising boys man. When I found out I was having a boy, there was this overwhelming feeling of like I need to raise this man for the world. You know, not this macho man. I need him to be respectful of women and confident, and like it, it was a. 

32:36 - Tamron Hall  (Guest)
I felt like a big responsibility that was just handed to me, I agree, and I don't want the world to see his confidence as a negative either Right, no, and and. And the only way that happens is that women like ourselves speak up and we say we don't want. You know, if he walks in the room assured of himself, that doesn't mean he is an a-hole. 

32:55 - Katie Fenske (Host)
It doesn't you know? 

32:56 - Tamron Hall  (Guest)
he had a mom that said you can be as confident about yourself as I was taught to be as a woman. Yeah, and it's a complicated conversation because I think sometimes people receive it through some kind of gender battle rule thing and that's not the case for me. As I said, I benefited from the local news anchor who my dad said you could be just like her if you get your grades up. I benefited from Linda Carter as Wonder Woman. I wanted a clear plane. I thought I could lasso any bad guy. You know Writers that I read all my life. I've benefited from that. But I also benefited from having a dad who was a master sergeant in the military but cook the best pies and anything else that he could take down anybody. But he was a great cook and a great baker Layers. 

33:42 - Katie Fenske (Host)
It's so great to see that, like my husband is the cook of the house. He is a baker, he loves to make bread. I'm like I love that my boys see that too, that you can be, that it's not like mom's doing the cooking. 

33:58 - Tamron Hall  (Guest)
Only you know, I absolutely love that, trying to give them a nice, well-rounded as best we can right, you know. But it's better that we try than we than to lean back and allow the world and I think most of the world does not want to do that. I think you know the empowering messages sent to me as a young girl, sent to you and continue to be sent, even in the new Barbie film. You know everybody was loving that. You know it's not, it wasn't meant to have a negative effect, but that doesn't mean it didn't. And what I mean by that is sometimes, when you over index and you want to get something right, it's easy for us all to turn our back on something else and the stats show that. Not, it wasn't deliberate, but there has been a complicated conversation to come out of this. There's a school in Baltimore I just saw on NBC news and they're looking at how they structured the day. It's an all boys school. Okay, they, they started with recess, you know versus sitting down right and they have really seen an improvement. 

35:06
they say, um, with boys enjoying school, because they needed to get that energy out. And again I know this starts to get into like stereotypes of what one gender likes over another and I understand that. But this is a school in Baltimore that saw a sea change from just from how they changed the curriculum of the day, not what was being learned, but how they were reaching the young the day, not what was being learned but how they were reaching the young men, young boys in that school Right. 

35:34 - Katie Fenske (Host)
I have said for years that our traditional education system is not made for boys and like I love school growing up and I hear my three boys every single morning like I hate school, I don't want to go. I'm like, how do you hate it? I'm like because they sit at a desk and that's not what boys are by nature meant to do and I wish I could change it like overnight and just be like, but it's, it's hard. 

36:00 - Tamron Hall  (Guest)
It's a system that's been set. It is a system, but it's also one that's seeing change and you're seeing schools acknowledge it. 

36:07
You know, when my son first started school he was in a three-year-old program and their first thing was sit down for meeting, like they would come in bounding from home. And my mom was an educator in Texas for many, many years. She's retired 30 years ago. She's like, wait a minute, they have a meeting as soon as they walk in the door. And my first note was you know, he doesn't want to sit down for a meeting and I'm free and I'm 500 and I don't want to sit for a meeting, yes, no. 

36:31
But I do also understand. You got to learn to quiet your body, you have to learn to listen, all of those things. But yeah, I just, I never expected it, I really didn't, and it's been fun to see. It's been fun to ask other boy moms, so to speak, about what they think. It's been fun to create this character that I hope, through Harlem Honey and the Adventures of a Curious Kid, that this little boy character can be amongst all of the great girl characters that we have to help all of our children feel that having big feelings and big emotions are okay and we learn to deal with them on a daily basis. 

37:11 - Katie Fenske (Host)
Yeah, yeah. Okay, before we wrap it up, here's some fun questions. If Moses could describe you in three words, what do you think he would say? 

37:20 - Tamron Hall  (Guest)
Amazing, I don't know, he'd say. I'll say I think he would say, oh God. He would say my mom, I'm going to be honest. He would say my mom is busy, I struggle. He would, but I don't know if it's a negative you know this like I'll have a story for everything. 

37:43
But, as I said, I went to that. I went to the opening for the thing last night and my makeup artist did my makeup, because it's all red carpet, all that. And I just got off the plane this morning the first thing he said, did you take all that makeup off? Because he associates it with me going to work going to work oh wow, he thinks makeup, because I don't wear makeup yeah he associates it with me being out. 

38:07
So it's it's kind of a negative for him right now because he's going somewhere with me. But I think he would say I'm busy. But I think he says I'm silly. He sometimes goes mom, you're so silly because we dance and we do dance parties and he he does associate me with adventure because we travel a lot together. 

38:25 - Katie Fenske (Host)
So I don't know those are good, I love them. I love them. Did you feel like when you became a mom, like cause you were very successful? Go, go, go business, you know doing your thing. Was it hard once you became a mom to not feel like I can't give a hundred percent here and be a hundred percent at home? I struggled with that so much. 

38:48 - Tamron Hall  (Guest)
Like I don't feel that way. I just feel I don't like leaving him. I mean, I mean when I get in, I'm in. I mean I have 180 people that work on the show. We're approaching our 1000th show. Wow, it's not like that part. You know. The thing that I struggle with honestly is I want to take him everywhere with me. We have a show coming up. We do this. 

39:11
Social media debate shows One of the big debates about people who don't let kids come to weddings. And I do. I'd like that's a great one. And I like how do you expect kids to learn if we can't ever take them anywhere? And so I am like all my soapbox about wanting to take my kid everywhere. And I let my team. Even when we're on Zoom, they're like I apologize, my kid's in the background. I'm like who cares? Let her say hi. I love that. Oh my gosh, I love that it has given me too. It's like I am team. If I could, if I owned the company, remember back in the day, you just have daycares at the workplace. I'm like I don't care. I am like team, bring your kid everywhere. 

39:50
I was at dinner the other day, not far from my home. It was five 30. It's a chic little place but whatever, I had my kid with me, it was our date because I had to go out of town and this couple kept eyeballing like he shouldn't be there and I'm like, first of all, it's five 30. Number two how do you expect a kid to learn, uh, how to behave? And he wasn't doing anything, it was just kid in the room. Right, wow, places where I'm with my kid and you know, the maitre d might bring the person over and they see a kid. They don't want to sit next to the kid. 

40:21 - Katie Fenske (Host)
I'm like that's a sign that they don't have kids yet, because before I had kids, I would see a mom in the grocery store. I'm like man that kid is so not well behaved. Now I'm like payback, because mine are crazy. 

40:37 - Tamron Hall  (Guest)
I personally maybe I have a high tolerance at I'm now 54. I rarely see kids just where I'm like Whoa, I mean, you see them wiggle, or they might like be a little loud, but that's that's to me. That is, even when it's not my kid, such a pleasant reminder that life is real. 

40:54
I love to see you know, I saw little boys the other day at the airport. They were playing soccer and waiting on the flight and they weren't bumping anybody. They were. But that's why do adults get to be loud and disruptive? Right, you have that fun out? Yeah, ooh, just I don't know, dude, just I don't know. I, I don't know. I think, and I was like this before, I had a kid, and maybe my childhood, uh, is what is in in front of mine, because I had a very like take your shoes off, run through, have fun, be nice. Say please, yes, you know, thank you, but be a kid yeah, we need more of that. 

41:27 - Katie Fenske (Host)
More let kids be kids. Yeah, because they are growing up so fast now it just seems like they are. 

41:33 - Tamron Hall  (Guest)
I run into far more rude adults than I do kids yeah. 

41:37 - Katie Fenske (Host)
Yeah, yeah, it's true. All right, what's one piece of advice you would give to parents that maybe you completely ignored and you're glad you did? 

41:47 - Tamron Hall  (Guest)
That I completely ignored, wait. 

41:50 - Katie Fenske (Host)
I would give one piece of advice, like okay, I remember when I had my first I was like I'm reading every baby book I'm preparing, I'm, you know, following the sleep schedule by the time I had my third, I would tell people get rid of every baby book. That's just going to stress you out, yeah, chill out. Like it's okay. I would say don't Google at night. 

42:18 - Tamron Hall  (Guest)
Don't Google milestones Like what are three-year-olds supposed to be doing? And it's like the range, like some like three-year-olds should be able to just to say hi. Then there are others like they should be reading at an academic level, oh my God. So I try to refrain and I'll tell you, even my girlfriends we laugh Like there are nights I would stay up in Google and my husband would be sound asleep and I'm like how are you over there sleeping? Don't you know what is happening in there? What are you worried about? What are you worried about? The milestones of 22 weeks, you know? I would say so, true, resist the urge to go down the milestone Google thing. 

42:56 - Katie Fenske (Host)
Yes, agreed, agreed. I totally agree with that. Well, thank you so much. This was so fun. You're doing a great job, you're a great mom, and I'm so excited for the release of your new book, harlem Honey. 

43:09 - Tamron Hall  (Guest)
Thank you so much. I feel the same way and congratulations on building this safe space for people to be able to talk and just have candid conversations. We don't have that enough, I feel. On my side, it's a great pleasure to be able to do it. 

43:24 - Katie Fenske (Host)
Special thanks to Tamron for coming on the podcast. I absolutely love this conversation, hearing her insights about motherhood and IVF and the story behind her new book, harlem Honey. Make sure to check the description below to find out where to get it. And, like always, I want to remind you that everyone birds their first pancake, so just keep flipping. Thanks for watching.