Burnt Pancakes: Momversations | Conversations for Imperfect Moms, Chats About Mom Life & Interviews with Real Mamas

103. Why "Gentle Parenting" Might Be Failing Our Kids with Avital Levy

Katie Fenske - Mom of 3 | Potty Training Coach | Former Teacher | Mama Mentor | Boy Mom | Imperfect Mom | Lover of Mom Chats Episode 103

Ever feel like you're doing all the right parenting things—being gentle, meeting every emotional need, creating magical childhoods—yet still ending up overwhelmed, exhausted, and unsure if it’s even working?

In this episode, I’m joined by parenting coach and founder of Hi Fam, Avital Schreiber Levy, who’s here to challenge the modern parenting trends that leave moms burnt out and kids emotionally fragile. Avital offers a refreshing third way that’s neither permissive nor authoritarian—but rooted in confident, values-based leadership.

We talk about:

  • Why “child-led everything” might be hurting our kids more than helping
  • What children actually crave from their parents (hint: it’s not constant entertainment)
  • How to build a strong family culture that your kids will want to recreate
  • The truth about mom guilt—and how to let it go
  • What it means to future-proof your kids against anxiety, confusion, and internet overload
  • Simple ways to start leading your family with calm, clarity, and confidence

Whether your home feels a little chaotic right now or you’re just tired of second-guessing every parenting decision, this episode will leave you feeling empowered, encouraged, and ready to reclaim your role as the heart of your family.

Connect with Avital:
Website: hifam.com
Instagram: @hifamlife
YouTube: Hi Fam on YouTube @hifamlife

If you loved this episode, share it with a mom friend who needs to hear it—and don’t forget to leave a quick review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. It helps more moms find the show!


📺 Watch the episode on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLOpw5ui4uxJHx0tLFVtpnfSkpObfc4d-K

You can find Katie at:
website: burntpancakes.com
YouTube: @burnt.pancakes
Instagram: @burntpancakeswithkatie
Email: katie@burntpancakes.com

🚽 Did you know Katie is also a Certified Potty Trainer? 🚽

☎️ Schedule a 1:1 chat today: Schedule Here
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00:08 - Katie Fenske (Host)
Hello, hello and welcome back to the burnt pancakes podcast, the podcast where we embrace the mess, laugh through the chaos and have real talk about motherhood. I'm your host, katie Fenske, and I'm reminding moms that everyone burns their first pancake. Today's guest is one I know you are going to love. I'm chatting with Avital Levy, founder of HiFam and a parenting expert who is flipping modern parenting advice on its head. If you've ever felt exhausted, trying to do all the right things from gentle parenting, meeting every emotional need, being an on-demand entertainer, keeping up with all the shoulds of parenting then this momversation is going to feel like a deep exhale. 

00:54
Avital helps moms break free from parenting traps and lead their families with confidence, without yelling, bribing and burning out. She's a mom of five and has over 20 years experience and reaches more than a hundred thousand parents around the world with her honest, research backed and refreshing, real approach to raising resilient, grounded children. I was so excited to talk to her. I got some real, practical advice on talking back on greediness, boredom, tantrum, social media technology all the things that I'm dealing with right now. So make sure to listen to the end, because she has a very special offer for all of us listeners. So grab your coffee or reheat it if you need to, and let's dive in to this conversation. 

01:48 - Avital Levy (Guest)
Avital welcome to the podcast, Katie. Thank you so much for having me. I am. 

01:55 - Katie Fenske (Host)
I browsed through your YouTube channel and now I'm like I have so many questions. I think you can help me with all my parenting problems not problems, but just the things I'm dealing with with my three kids right now. So why don't you start by telling us how old your kids are, and then we'll get into how you help parents? 

02:14 - Avital Levy (Guest)
Okay, brilliant. So I have five kids. My eldest is 13 and my youngest is four, and they're just based, you know, two years in between. So we've got six, nine, 11. And yeah, that's us. 

02:24 - Katie Fenske (Host)
How about you? You're, you're like in the thick of it, helping all these parents who are also in the thick of it. I think that's the best part. Like you are in my shoes right now. 

02:34 - Avital Levy (Guest)
Oh yeah, I'm absolutely not, you know, a sage on the stage. I'm your guide from the side. We're in the trenches together, a hundred percent side. 

02:46 - Katie Fenske (Host)
We're in the trenches together, a hundred percent, right, right, um, so you help parents worldwide. How did you get into that? Did you have people coming to? 

02:53 - Avital Levy (Guest)
you, yeah. Yeah, I actually don't come from the world of parenting or psychology at all, um, and this was very much a journey that I went on for myself personally to solve my own issues and my own anxieties about parenting when I first got married. I got married very young and I actually didn't have that urge that a lot of women do have to have kids. It seemed like exhausting and depleting and scary and I was just you know, I wasn't excited about it. 

03:20
And I come from a very, very kid friendly. You know family and culture, but it seems scary to me and I kind of decide, ok, but this is a human experience I don't want to miss out on. But I have to do it, you know, empowered. I have to have information, I have to have a plan. I'm a little bit like that that I like to, like you know, educate myself or get a handle on things that I'm going into. So I feel equipped, and so, even before my first was born, I started reading quite obsessively all sorts of parenting books. So I probably read over a hundred parenting books at this point, dozens for sure. 

03:54
And it fascinated me. You know, when you become a parent, you start to think a lot about your own childhood, about you know psychology, about human development, about human society, about your values, about your relationships, about who you want to be for this kid, and you discover a level of love and sacrifice and connection and challenge that, at least for myself, I had never met before. And so that's how I started being fascinated by parenting. And I actually come from the world of design. So I was working as a designer. 

04:22
I did identity design and strategy and all sorts of problem solving within startups and the entrepreneurial world, and what I kind of found was there was this really interesting convergence between design thinking, which is solutions oriented, which is always looking for the most elegant, easy, beautiful solution to real life problems to make our lives more streamlined and anesthetic and pleasant and fun, and and parenting, which presents a million problems and dilemmas and questions you know all day, every day. And so I started kind of summarizing everything I was learning. I eventually did some coaching, training, but really I'm just another mom who's kind of obsessed with this. And I'll just say one more point is that my edge, beyond design in the parenting world, my, my, the downside to my work, is that I'm not a PhD or psychologist or researcher. But that's also the upside, because I'm really focused on very pragmatic, you know, down to earth, grounded um solutions and on mindset, you know, uh, I'm really focused on us all feeling more empowered and more joyful and, I guess, excited about this adventure of motherhood. 

05:32 - Katie Fenske (Host)
Yeah, and I think that makes you more relatable that you're not the expert who's trying to tell us what we're doing wrong. It's like this is what I'm going through, Like I feel like I can relate to you a lot more. 

05:44 - Avital Levy (Guest)
Well, yeah, because I'm really testing these ideas out in my own lab, and you know I often have to start my coaching sessions or my group sessions saying you know, I just came off a very challenging thing with my 13 year old, or with my four year old, or with my husband. So it's all very real for me, yeah absolutely Okay. 

06:00 - Katie Fenske (Host)
Let's talk a little bit about what modern parents are going through. I read something recently that kind of talked about how like millennial parents are. Millennials are now parenting and what their parents were like and how that affected them and how it's affecting their kids, and it was pretty fascinating what kind of like philosophies parenting philosophies are coming out now. So what, like what are some of the modern parenting trends that you're seeing? 

06:27 - Avital Levy (Guest)
Yeah, so there are a lot of really positive modern parenting trends that are a reaction to our boomer parents and to their kind of the greatest generation parents before them, which is basically a little bit of a pushback or a reaction to authoritarian parenting which was the norm in Western countries, you know, in the earlier part of the 20th century and the later part of the 20th century, and so most of our parents for anyone parenting today may have lent more authoritarian, or at least they were brought up authoritarian, and that generally means very high expectations. That could be, you know, rules and punishments and consequences and follow through and a lot of structure and sometimes also harsh reactions like shaming, threatening, punishing and maybe even corporal punishment, which has really fallen out of favor and that's fantastic. But it was also characterized by low support. Authoritarian parenting is characterized by low warmth, low connection, low quality time, low empathy and that kind of thing. The direction where any form of correction and direction and guidance and rules and any expectations have actually been loosened to a detrimental effect to our kids. 

07:51
Because expectations are actually good. You know punishment and banking and yelling is not good, but expectations and boundaries, as you say, are really good. But what's good about today's parenting is that we offer high support, so we offer a lot of warmth, a lot of acknowledgement and validation and a lot of feedback and a lot of quality time, and that's something that is very rare in parenting. Around the world and throughout history, parents did not spend especially not one-on-one time with their children, but even just not that much time. Kids were off running around with other kids, with teens teens, you know, being apprentices or you know rough and tumbling and and and and, being free range, and that's the type of thing that doesn't happen anymore and there's good sides to that, but there's mostly downsides for us as parents and for our children. 

08:40 - Katie Fenske (Host)
Yeah, I see that in myself. Like my my mom used to say, oh yeah, go play at the neighbor's house, and I would go there. You know there were no cell phones. You just went until you came home. Well, now my son is like, can I ride my bike, you know, like a couple of streets over to go to this shop? And my instinct is like, that's far I won't know where you are, like you can't get ahold of me, and it kind of freaks me out a little bit. I'm trying to let him be more adventurous because I see that he's yearning for that, but it's kind of a struggle that I've had. 

09:09 - Avital Levy (Guest)
Yeah, you're very much not alone. That's something that parents across the West are experiencing. It's it's it's particularly tough in America, where there's even be criminalization of of parents who allow their kids to go to the playground or that kind of thing. So the trouble with all of these cultural issues in our parenting is it's very hard for us to adjust them on our own right. It's kind of something that needs to become a norm, and it becomes very difficult. If you're the only mom allowing your kids to ride the bike in the neighborhood. Then you feel like, oh no, I'm going to be judged Right. 

09:37 - Katie Fenske (Host)
I totally feel like my neighbors are like I want my boys just go outside, go play in the front yard. 

09:42 - Avital Levy (Guest)
But then I worry like are they going to be like those Fenske boys, always running amok and their mom's not watching them, and I'm like right God, I don't want to be that parent, right Right, Because we're so afraid of judgment today in a way that I don't think our moms really considered very much. You know, they didn't have to cause it was the norm, but also because there wasn't social media People were, you know a lot less concerned with other people's business in that kind of way and um, and that is a big challenge for us today, for sure. 

10:11 - Katie Fenske (Host)
Oh for sure. Oh, I'm feeling all of that. Um, what about the trend gentle parenting Cause? When I hear that like it stresses me out, cause, then I start feeling like I am definitely not always gentle, not that I'm like going around hitting my kids, but I have emotions and I'm not always like oh honey, how are you feeling? You know, how is? Where did that trend come from, and is it the right way to parent? 

10:36 - Avital Levy (Guest)
So I've been talking quite a lot about this recently. By recently I mean the last four or five years, but at the beginning of my own journey, say about 13 years ago, I found a lot of wisdom in the gentle parenting movement. A lot of wisdom in the idea of talking to your children with respect and being really logical and fair and honest and authentic and transparent about your consequences and your rules. So explaining yourself, you know, for example, giving children reasons for your decisions, sharing power with children all those types of things. And the idea of gentle parenting that I still really really connect with is the idea that children do as we do, more than they do as we say, and gentle parenting puts a big or at least conscious parenting, puts a big emphasis on modeling, and I think that those are wise. 

11:24
The trouble is that what's written in the books of gentle parenting or in the research around gentle parenting is not what becomes the zeitgeist of our culture. If you go on TikTok, if you go to the playground, if you listen to moms, you know chatter on Reddit or on, you know wherever you're, wherever you're hearing them what you find is that they take the ideas of gentle parenting and they strip them down to an unsustainable and very unhealthy approach to parenting, which isn't, I think, the way the authors initially attend intended it. But it's come to be synonymous with permissive parenting and permissive parenting. You know, we spoke about authoritarian parenting. Permissive parenting is the opposite of that. It's the very high support but it's a very low expectations and that is actually even worse for kids than authoritarian parenting. So actually yelling or punishing them it's not great, but it's better. They're not holding any expectations, they're not holding any boundaries and there's a lot of trends that go along with that. We can break these down, but things like an overemphasis on empathy and emotions, which is actually creating, unfortunately, really fragile kids and young adults. There's a lot of emphasis on self-esteem, which is actually completely debunked. The whole idea of building up a child's self-esteem was a movement that started back in the 80s and it really really failed. To constantly praise children to make sure that they always win a trophy. Those types of things to try and inflate their ego in an artificial external manner actually doesn't work. It actually again makes them fragile, weak, lost, confused, lack self-confidence. 

12:56
Um, the idea of child-led everything you know we kind of talk took Maria Montessori's words of child-led play, which is wonderful, but then we led it to everything else right Child led everything and just affirm everything that they want, which is terrible for kids. 

13:11
They need boundaries, they need leadership, they need guidance. They're not little gurus, even though, you know, some of us like to imagine that they're just born wise and that they just know what they need and how they're going to set boundaries for themselves on sugar and screen time, and it's just not true. So those are the types of traps that we get into as modern day parents, and because of what we said before, but about, you know, being nervous to be judged, we don't want to be perceived as harsh or as old fashioned or as out of date or as unempathic God forbid. And the worst thing that anyone could tell anyone in today's day and age is that you're judgy, right, being judgy is just the worst thing. And so we're all very nervous. Oh, I'm not being judgy, no, it's just what works for me. You know, we're all extremely, extremely uncomfortable in our own skin, scared of our own shadow, and I think it's just leading to a generation of parents that are just very self-doubting very uncomfortable with their role. 

14:07 - Katie Fenske (Host)
I would definitely agree with that self doubting Cause I think that all the time, I mean my oldest is about to turn 11. So you'd think like, oh, you know I'm a pro parent now, no, I still question every day Like, oh God, am I doing this right? Like this is hard. So if we've got the authoritarianism and the gentle parenting, is there like a middle ground, like a third way to parent? 

14:27 - Avital Levy (Guest)
Yeah, so there is and this has been really well established in research, like back in the seventies, which is that actually what children need is the high expectations from authoritarian parenting, and they need the high support from authoritative, from a permissive parenting. And when you put that together, you get the very confusing label of authoritative parenting, which tip Okay. 

14:47 - Katie Fenske (Host)
Yeah. 

14:47 - Avital Levy (Guest)
Authoritative instead of authoritarian. Unfortunately, that's how the researchers labeled it back then. It was a really bad branding. But the idea is basically, you know, balanced parenting, right. So it is, uh, it's pretty hands-on like. It is pretty intense in the sense that you're showing up for your kids but you're giving them the high expectation, the rules, the consequences, the follow through. You see them as having standards. Right, you can do this, you will help with this, you will succeed with this, you will try again. You will not hit right. 

15:19
We have all these expectations, but then the difference is that we also offer the support to help them meet those expectations. So here I'm going to teach you how I will mentor you. I will set up my home in a way that is inclusive and helpful for you. You know, I will make sure that your needs are met. You know, dental parenting gets obsessed with unmet needs. Oh, my gosh, my child's hitting because of unmet needs, because they're hungry, because they're tired, right, all because they're hungry, because they're tired, right, All these kinds of things. That's taking it too far, right, but we do need to meet our children's needs and make sure that they're getting, you know, the help, the teaching, the information, the love the shelter, the food, the nutrition, the sleep that they need in order to be their best and to behave well. And then we need to expect a lot of them, and I think parents today are very squeamish about expecting anything of their children whatsoever, to be honest, right. 

16:07 - Katie Fenske (Host)
Okay. So let's look at this parenting style. A couple like here's a couple of things that I feel like my kids, my kids and I need work on Talking back. Like I, my husband and I have said to our kids all the time we did not talk back to our parents, the way you just can just run your mouths Like it shocks me. My 11 year old I'm like just stop already, like you're making it worse. So if I'm following that method of parenting, what do I do to handle his talking back? 

16:38 - Avital Levy (Guest)
So, first of all, I totally relate. We have the same issue and I feel the same way. 

16:41 - Katie Fenske (Host)
I would never, I would never have said that, and then I was like, was like I was scared of my parents, but I'm like, I was never scared of my parents, I just knew. Well, maybe I did talk back. My mom will probably have a different memory of this story but, like in schools with coaches, like you do tend to see it in this generation of kids- yeah, so it's funny, I think I think we do misremember a little bit, cause I think we did talk back to our parents a little bit. 

17:06 - Avital Levy (Guest)
I kind of have a muffled memory of my mom saying something to me. Right, I would never have spoken to my parents that way. I think she said that to me as well. 

17:15 - Katie Fenske (Host)
And she's like ah, he sounds just like you, katie. 

17:18 - Avital Levy (Guest)
Right, exactly, it's that curse that mothers put on their children. But you should have a child just like you, and they do. Um, but you know a few things about that, I think, first of all, there is a small kernel of positive in that today's children are slightly less respectful of elders, because we have had a bit of a breakdown of authority, as this be all and end all, that you should never question and that you should never. You know, and there is something in raising children who can stand up to a negative authority. You know, if a teacher is telling them to do something bad, dangerous, you know, whatever unsavory, for whatever reason, then we want them to be able to say you know what, just because you're a teacher doesn't mean I'm just going to, you know, zip my mouth and not say anything. So there's something to it. But what we fail to do is teach them the difference between benevolent authority, positive authority, leaders that you do need to respect, and negative authority. So a lot of parents today will say stuff like well, I'm glad that my daughter talks back to me because I need to raise a strong, independent woman and she should be able to talk back to anyone, and I'm thinking, oh God, no, no, that is not helping. It's going to be a rough world she's in, exactly, exactly Because you do have to actually learn to respect people. 

18:30
You have to learn to respect everyone, and then you have to learn to respect elders or people in authority. You know the police, your teachers, your parents. They do deserve more respect than just your friends. They sacrifice a lot, they've got a lot on the line. They've got a lot on the line. They've got a lot of life experience, and we wouldn't want the type of society where kids are just being rude. And so I think that when our children talk back to us, it is incumbent upon us to correct them, but we can do so in a warm way. So, rather than shaming them and being disgusted and raising our voice, which happens when we're mad, okay, but ideally it would be something like whoa, it's very hard for me to listen to your request when you're talking so rudely. Take a moment and please rephrase that, and then I would love to help. Like that, I like that. 

19:15
It's something like that where we just are asking that, hey, that sounds incredibly disrespectful. It actually hurts me to hear you talk to me that way. I'm. If you'd like help with something, I suggest you ask in a polite way and then I can consider your, your request, right. Something along those lines where we are setting a boundary. It's very clear we're not going to be spoken to that way, but we also aren't losing it and exploding and you know, taking away screens from here until they're out, right. 

19:48 - Katie Fenske (Host)
And I like that. You're still giving them the opportunity to be part of the discussion. Like we can discuss this, but it needs to be done in a manner that's respectful, and they're going to use that skill their whole life. 

20:00 - Avital Levy (Guest)
Exactly, it's a good life lesson, like whenever you want something from someone, or whenever you you know you better, you better. Treat them with respect, you'll get a better result, right, right. So they need to practice that. 

20:10 - Katie Fenske (Host)
I like that. I like that a lot. What about greed? Like I wrote down the word greed. Like I feel like my kids feel like they're entitled to everything and maybe this is how I was growing up too but they just like want everything and they don't realize, like you don't always get, get everything. What's the strategy we can use with that? 

20:35 - Avital Levy (Guest)
so this is a really big one. And it's funny because, you know, most of us are extremely lucky and privileged to live, live in a prosperous and peaceful society where kids really you know they might go through some tough stuff. There might be a divorce, there might be a disease, there might be financial downturn, but on the whole life is pretty cushy, good and right life is good. And then there's you layer on top of that abundance and, uh, materialism and amazon prime and children really can be. 

21:03 - Katie Fenske (Host)
You know they get things instantly. Now like I. I remind them all the time when I was growing up we'd have to go to the store to get that or it would take two to three weeks for to go, and they're like're like. I ordered that from Amazon. Why? 

21:14 - Avital Levy (Guest)
isn't it here today. 

21:15 - Katie Fenske (Host)
I'm like cause we ordered it yesterday, it's going to take a while Exactly so. 

21:24 - Avital Levy (Guest)
I actually think this is one of the biggest projects for Western parents today is to actually counterbalance that and contend with that. So one of the unpopular ideas in parenting is in gentle parenting or whatever. The culture today is that first of all, we shouldn't have shame for anything. You should never feel any kind of shame and I think that's doing us a disservice. I think it's appropriate to feel shameful or ashamed when you behaved in wrong ways. That's kind of your emotional system telling you that you're not proud of how you showed up. I don't think you need to shame your children. I don't think you need to like stand there, you know degrading them, but I think it's appropriate for children to understand that greed is wrong, okay, or sinful in you know in religious language, or harmful to them in psychological language. Right, it's not good for you. You appear entitled and unlikable to your surroundings when you're that way and it creates a bit of a monster in you. Right, that you're you. 

22:27
We all need to learn to delay gratification and to wait and to be patient and to be grateful for what we have and to treat our things with respect and that kind of thing. So the reason I'm saying all of this is because another thing that we have in our culture is that we don't want to do any kind of hierarchy. You know, when we were growing up maybe our parents said something like you have to finish everything on your plate because there's starving children in the world and you're not grateful for what you have. And today that's very much fallen out of favor, and I understand why, like there's no logical connection between you finishing your plate and that child getting food. 

23:00
But there is a kernel of truth to that, which is that when you can take the perspective of other people in the world throughout history and in most of the world today, who do not have Amazon, who do not even have a roof over their head or food on their plate, and who would really give everything to have just a kernel of what you have in your life, then you start to be a little bit more grateful, and I do think it's appropriate for children who grow up in abundance, like mine, like yours, to know that that is not the norm, that that is something that people fought and died for, literally know that that is not the norm, that that is something that people fought and died for literally, that that is something that people hustled and grinded for right and that it's a tremendous privilege and that, and that the appropriate response to it is gratitude, because you can have everything in the world. 

23:49
You could have everything in the world as a child, but if you're grateful for what you have, then you won't be an entitled, you know, spoiled brat. You won't be. You'll be pleasant to be around. You'll know how to talk about it. 

24:00 - Katie Fenske (Host)
Yeah, absolutely that's. I was just trying to teach my middle son he had. We, I think, went to my mom's house and they had like a little treat there. And then they came home and the ice cream truck came by our house and I was like, hey guys, we had a treat earlier, we had this. He, like the rest of the day, was moping around, like I get to go the ice cream truck, and I was like, don't you remember the treats we had earlier? Like can't you? And he just could not get over it. So I think working on gratitude would definitely definitely help him and that's such a normal. 

24:34 - Avital Levy (Guest)
It's a normal reaction for it to be like that, like I. You know my kids do that the whole time too. But I think what would be and I think you did absolutely the right thing in saying no, because that's part of it is that they have to get used to sometimes doing no right. 

24:46 - Katie Fenske (Host)
You know his little face all sad and it's like oh, it doesn't come around here often. But I was like, no, like you've had plenty right, right, right. 

24:55 - Avital Levy (Guest)
So running out of their favorite cereal and not restocking straight away, or sometimes saying you know what your friends are getting that, but we're not because we're going to save the budget for something else, or because we've had enough, because I just don't think it's the right thing for us right now, or having to wait for your birthday to get that thing, or to save up your allowance or work, you know, walk the neighbor's dog to earn money for that thing. Those types of things are all going to build more of a sense of, you know, earning and of delayed gratification and of waiting. But also, I think it's okay. You know he has his sulk. My kid, let's say, has a sulk about the ice cream truck and afterwards I can say something like you know, I get that. You just felt like all I want right now is ice cream and so you felt really hard done by and you felt like you really missed out and you were upset and it was hard for you to get over that. But I want you to know that I really believe that you are capable of seeing something you want and and realizing that you're not always going to have it. 

25:50
You know, my mom used to tell us that we'll shop with our eyes right, that you can go to a shop and you can enjoy things with your eyes and you don't have to own them. You don't have to always buy, you don't have to always get more you can like. Sometimes you'll go with your kids to a friend's house and they have a great toy and you're like, they're playing with this toy. Now I have to own it. That's the whole thing. That you don't, you know, and so you know. 

26:19
So the point that I just want to say is that it's fine to tell him, to coach his mindset, in my opinion, not from a place of trying to shame him, but to induce a little bit of self-reflection. Hey, does that response make you proud? Like you're old enough and you're mature enough to know that we don't just buy treat after treat after treat. It's bad for our teeth, it's bad for our bank account, it's bad for the environment, whatever. We just don't, or it just makes us more greedy, we don't need that, and that you're you know. I would expect next time for you to say, oh, I'm a little bit disappointed, but you're right, we did have a treat this morning. Thank you for that, and next time. I'd love to have one. Please, whatever you know, and just help him realize that it's not appropriate to cry over ice cream, right? People cry when there's a tragedy, a grief, loss, pain, yeah, not getting the ice cream you want. You can handle that you can. You can handle that Okay. 

27:08 - Katie Fenske (Host)
What about, um, kids playing by themselves? Because this is something I'm really struggling with, especially my youngest. As a kid, I would play in our playhouse for hours by myself, just imagining he cannot do that every day. It's like, mom, can you play school with me? And I'm like, oh, just go go in your room, have your imaginary students. He's like no, I need it. He like needs me to play with him. Did I create that? Like, why can't my kids just be okay, Just playing by themselves? 

27:41 - Avital Levy (Guest)
Is this all your kids, or you're talking about one specific? 

27:43 - Katie Fenske (Host)
Um, okay, I noticed it a lot in my oldest and I thought it was. He was the only first little over three years, so he had all of my attention and I think I was that kind of mom. That's like. I need him to be entertained all day. I need to make sure he's busy. Let's do this craft in this. So I think he was a little bit like that. And then I thought with my third like he was a COVID baby, so he had people to play with and look at his entire life. But now he's doing that where he doesn't want to play by himself. 

28:15 - Avital Levy (Guest)
Yeah, so it's both of them. So I have so much to say. I've written a whole book about this. Give me your address and I'll send it to you. But look, there's a lot of different things to say about this, but what I'll just the main mindset I want you to realize is that independence is a muscle and, like muscles, they need a little bit of stress, a little bit of strain in order to grow stronger. And if you don't use them, you lose them. So if a kid is constantly entertained, if you answer those calls right, if you find him things to do, et cetera, he will not build the muscle. So there has to be a little bit of pain to get the gain Right, and that pain is, you know, boredom. 

28:54 - Katie Fenske (Host)
Right, I was just thinking the word boredom. They just have to be bored, they really do. 

28:59 - Avital Levy (Guest)
They have to be bored. Now, you know we're lucky. We just spoke about living in an amazing society where there's a lot of stuff and I'm sure you have puzzles and Play-Doh and you know toys and all this stuff in the house, and you know toys and all this stuff in the house, but that is the tools of play. They need the muscle of play to actually start to activate their imagination and their time right. So you've got the weights in your house. Now they have to go and lift them, actually do and right, and that's something that you can help through design. We spoke about my background in design. 

29:26
One of the things I teach in my book is setting up different play zones imagination, play, messy play, focus, play where you're doing, like you know more homeschool style or puzzles or scientific experiments, movement right, which is where you're maybe having indoor swings or monkey bars or just a crash mat on the floor to wrestle, you know, and you have three boys, so I bet that could have a lot of wrestling yeah yeah, martial arts and all of that stuff, and then maybe also a quiet zone where it's reading and it's unwinding and relaxation. 

30:00
But I think when you set up the environment and then the biggest challenge for us modern day parents is removing ourselves, is becoming unavailable, right? Hey, I'm cooking now. I'm on the phone, now I'm listening to a podcast. I'm cooking now. I'm on the phone, now I'm listening to a podcast, I'm doing laundry. I'm just not available. And that is something that you know, I think can maybe worm its way into feelings of guilt or like, yeah, should I be there for them? Do I need, does he need, my attention? But I want to just flip that around for you and say it's so good for them, like, it's so so good for them and for you to develop that muscle. Right, it really gives them you. 

30:35
We spoke about the failure of the self-esteem movement and it failed because adults can't tell kids that they're creative and smart and and and clever and strong and productive beings. They can't. That's something you have to experience for yourself in an embodied way. You have to say I sat here, it was hard to do, I built it. It crashed. I built it again. I was persistent. Now it's here, everyone's admiring it, it's cool, I've got it. And you have to actually have that internal experience of success in order to build confidence and success for kids. Looks like play right. It looks like I managed to do a roly poly on the floor. I built up my handstand skills. I made a drawing that really looks like a dog. You know, those are the types of things where they, where they exercise that muscle. 

31:21 - Katie Fenske (Host)
Yeah, I love that. I just have the hardest time like just getting him to like just go do it. I do notice sometimes when he is kind of playing by himself and I like catch him, he gets embarrassed, Like he's like oh why, why are you watching? Cause I can see him like playing quietly, talking to himself quietly, and I'm like, oh, it's fine, Keep going. It's so cute, Like I love watching it, but I'm like don't be embarrassed. 

31:43
I did that for hours. I played house. I played school Like it's fine, you can do it. Summer's coming up and I'm like I keep reminding my kids like it's okay to be bored. That's when you get creative, that's when fun things come about. But then I go, I'm so bored yeah. 

31:59 - Avital Levy (Guest)
One of the best solutions to boredom is chores. It's like, oh, you're bored, I have plenty of things to give you. 

32:03 - Katie Fenske (Host)
Yes, yes, I'm doing that. 

32:06 - Avital Levy (Guest)
It's great If he's getting into that like whispery, you know, playing imaginatively. The reason he's embarrassed when he, when you catch him, is because there is something somewhat private, you know, about that world and it is perceived maybe as also as very young and babyish for some kids. Like I played like that till I was at least 12. Oh yeah, you know. But the thing is that I well, one thing I just tell all parents is just to never interrupt. If it's happening, happening, you've got to tiptoe, like remove yourself from the room. Just, you know, just let them. Because it's like it's the state of flow, right, what Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi has coined as flow where you lose inhibition, where you're not, you're not thinking about yourself, you're just in your world, you're productive, you're challenged, you're excited by what you're doing. And if someone then comes in and is like oh, what are you, are you? 

32:49
doing, you know, oh, that says that you just feel like, well, no, don't look at me you know, so we have to just remove ourselves. 

32:58 - Katie Fenske (Host)
That's the best best we could do, let them go. Okay, something that my parents didn't have to deal with in parenting is the whole like social media and the level of anxiety that kids go through today. So what are some things like my oldest keeps asking for a phone and that is one of the hardest things that we've had to like stick with and say no to because we keep getting the not fair. Everyone has it, but I've just heard so much about the pressure of social media and even just like the messages that go back and forth. So how do parents navigate the technology in this world of parenting? 

33:34 - Avital Levy (Guest)
Wow, well, congratulations Huge. 

33:36 - Katie Fenske (Host)
I don't know. 

33:37 - Avital Levy (Guest)
No, that you have resisted, even until the age of 11. That's not easy. So I'm really. 

33:41 - Katie Fenske (Host)
You know, god it's tears in the car the other day when he was like they're bullying me because I don't have one. I'm like I don't think they're bullying you. I think you're probably feeling like I don't have a phone or my friends do, but I just we cannot go there yet. Yeah. 

33:57 - Avital Levy (Guest)
So one of the things I love about some of the schools that my kids are in is that the parents have kind of Jonathan Haidt style. 

34:03
He has this whole idea uh organized, uh kind of a contract between the parent body where we're all signing in that we won't give our kids a phone until after sixth grade, for example. Okay, you know, you could decide, but it's kind of like what we're talking about, about riding your bike outside. It's very hard to do these kinds of things alone. The peer pressure is immense and if other parents, you know, if the kids are all getting together on WhatsApp and your kid is the only one who doesn't have it, it becomes very, very difficult. So I do advocate for as much kind of community involvement with school, with other parents, and sometimes it's just being the first one to say hey, does anyone else worry about you know cell phones. Can we all agree that our at least our five kids are not going to have? You know? And that helps because I can say to my 11 year old listen, buddy, I signed a contract, you can't have one until high school. 

34:53 - Katie Fenske (Host)
So I'm sorry. 

34:53
That's allowed to one other mom, one other mom reach out to me at school, cause she's like hey, I heard like all the boys play video games, but she's like I heard Ronan say he cannot play until the weekend. So we made a rule. Like you can only play video games on the weekends. Cause it was getting out of control. Like it was like oh my God. She's like, how did you do that? Because I need to do that with my son. She's like it's a problem, like I can't. All these kids are playing and so we both like connected over, like we don't want our kids on this all the time. How are you doing it? So now I can say to him hey, lucas isn't on it either, like he can't play on the weekdays, exactly so at least, now I have like an ally. 

35:34
I'm like you're not going to do it, I'm not going to do it, but then I feel like it's the two of us and there's a lot more. That isn't enough. 

35:41 - Avital Levy (Guest)
Yes it isn't enough, but it's a start, and I you know I will give you specifics, but I will just say anything you can do on the community level, like asking teachers to reach out, asking the school know, rallying in the school to say, hey, how about this is a phone free school, or you know, those types of things. Yeah. But I also want to say there are grades of technology and there are levels that you can slowly step onto this treadmill instead of just going full force ahead. You know, like my 13 year old, in his school, the teachers actually communicate via WhatsApp, via all sorts of apps, and so he does now have a smartphone, and that's why we started. 

36:19
However, you know, he has a smartphone that's much more similar to a dumb phone in the sense that it doesn't have full internet access. He does, he does have WhatsApp, but we monitor it. It has heavy parental controls, he doesn't have any entertainment on there and he does not have any social media except for whatsapp, if you count that as right, right, I love that, and so you can go from no phone to a dumb phone for a few years. So, hey, you can call your friends, you can call me, no problem, but there's no internet, there's no, and a dumb phone. I would give my nine-year-old a dumb phone, no problem, like just to be able to call it's. 

36:48
It's really like an old-fashioned phone that does nothing right but then the real, real issue is internet connection, right, the real and the worst issue is social media. Yeah, and that you know, I do think that there's a chance not to sound all judgmental, but I'm in this boat too. But I think that there's a chance that in a decade or two we're going to be looking at this the way we look at cigarettes today and think what do you mean? That you were just handing those out to kids. 

37:15 - Katie Fenske (Host)
Yeah, I think so too, Yep. 

37:18 - Avital Levy (Guest)
And I think when you feel that way like I have that level of conviction you become a bit more immune to all the pester power, right, but everyone has, yeah, everyone has one. Sorry, I care about you too much, it's because I love you. 

37:32 - Katie Fenske (Host)
You don't love me and I'm like I do and I've done some research. He's like that research is stupid. Like in 10 years you'll pay me, I get it. 

37:41 - Avital Levy (Guest)
He won't he won't understand. It's not the type of thing he'll ever well, he will ever like you say he'll thank you in the future, but not right now. He's never going to concede, although I will say, even my 13 year old will say I can see how it disrupts my attention or I can see how I'm on it too much, or I can see you know, that kind of thing are lucky in the sense that it is a little bit easier with boys and with girls. In my opinion, video games is harder but social media is easier yeah, and the self-esteem aspect and the anxiety yeah yeah, I mean really for my daughter it would. 

38:12
It's like a hard no on any kind of social media. I would rather she has a phone that doesn't have a camera, for example you know, there are certain aspects, by the way. 

38:22 - Katie Fenske (Host)
So is it hard to find a phone that without a camera? Do they make those very hard to? 

38:25 - Avital Levy (Guest)
find. Yes, they make them just especially for people who you know like these dumb phones that you want. It's um, that actually is when social media became so detrimental to kids is when the camera was introduced on the on the phone and it had a front camera, so suddenly people were taking selfies and selfies changed the entire game, um. 

38:48
But I think a lot of parents, you know, are turning a blind eye or don't realize, or are just too frazzled and busy and overwhelmed to understand that this is a a very real, uh, threat to our children's. Well, it's not. I don't think it's hyperbolic. 

39:07
I see the detrimental effects it has on me as an adult on my husband you know, and a lot of parents will say to me well, they get addicted anyway when they're 18, why don't you know? How are they going to prepare themselves for that? And to me I'm just like, well, they'll drive a car anyway when, when they're an adult, why don't they just drive one now? Like it doesn't make any sense. You know, like why would you have a developing brain, a young child, children who really cannot? They cannot regulate themselves. It is absolutely addictive, it is a dopamine thrill like no other, um, detrimental to so many things. So I think, just understanding really deep in your soul that this is something that you're committed to, finding the community, who are going to, you know, be your little allies and be in your corner and help you out. And then the third thing I would say is really offering your children an inspiring alternative. And I say this because we actually we're Jewish and we observe Sabbath, and when you observe Sabbath you don't have any electronics for 25 hours on the weekend, and that means the adults and the children and everyone else around you. So we're very, very lucky in the sense that there's kind of this peer pressure because no one's on a screen, and I know that that's very hard to recreate without that. But what I wanted to just say is that many parents are like, oh, there's so much battles and whining and arguments about the screens that I just I just let it go and I just give in. And I want to say, yes, when you let it go and just give in, there are less battles. But also, when you set a very firm, strong boundary, there are less battles. I don't have any. My kids never ask for the screen on a weekend because they know why would they even ask? It's a waste of breath. And so you can get around the battles by having no boundaries or by having strong boundaries, and I would rather people have strong boundaries. They're hard for a week or two, but then they become habit and I just think then it's protective. Look, you've got nothing. You know, if it turns out the screens were great for kids, okay, they'll catch up when they're 17,. You know, right, right. But if it turns out that it screws up their entire development, which I think is the more likely case, then you did the smart thing and you held firm on something that's hard to hold firm on. 

41:21
And just one more word about the other inspiring things Kids today and parents. Today we're so screen oriented that we don't remember that there are real life activities right. There's baking, there's martial arts, there's going out with friends, there's riding bikes together to the library, there's just being in the forest with your dog. There's all these amazing things that you could be doing and should be doing. And, I think, developing skills being part of a household. I said chores before. I really mean I think chores should take up time for kids every single day. You know, working on your skills, going to a debate team, going to gymnastics, these types of things, and then practicing at home and getting creative and getting into independent play. Those things can only really happen if we go through the threshold of boredom, if the screen isn't available, if mom's just saying this is what it is. We figured it out as kids. We didn't have social media. They are wired to figure it out too. We just have to create the environment and the boundaries to hold that in place. 

42:14 - Katie Fenske (Host)
Oh my gosh, I love that so much. It's like inspiring me to think like what, what other boundaries can we set and stick to? You know we can stick to that. Yeah, okay, can you tell us a little bit about the high fam method and like the community that you have for parents, because I, like, I am loving everything that you're saying. 

42:34 - Avital Levy (Guest)
Yeah, amazing. So high fam is a cute little acronym for harmony and family and marriage, and, um, what I do inside of the High Fam studio, which is my membership in my community with members from all over the world, is that I help you to build a strong family culture. So it's all about how to set up my life right in a way that is attuned to my values, to the vision that I hold for my family, and I think sometimes I say that and people are thinking vision. I'm just getting through the day, like, just get me through bedtime. What are we even talking about here? 

43:06
When we start, when we first started our family, when we first dreamed up having a baby, or when we were pregnant for the first time, or the first time we saw that little baby, there was a flicker or a larger goal, purpose, mission that we were called to. There was something that was endowed with a ton of meaning, somehow, for some reason Right, and I think that's because we all actually know that we're more than just chauffeurs and babysitters and providers. We're guides to these little people, we're their mentors, we're their spiritual guides or their you know, their, their people, their their unconditional love, and and we had some kind of vision for what types of relationships we could have, what type of culture we could build, and I have the very kind of I guess, aloof or maybe hubris idea that culture is downstream from parenting. Like we are the OG future makers. Right, we are literally creating the future by bringing up the people who are gonna inhabit it, and how we bring them up can be, in my opinion, one of the most inspirational and exciting adventures of our lifetime, or it can be one of the most, you know, kind of devastating or disappointing and frustrating projects of our lives, and so my goal is to help make it the former, not the latter, and I think we have quite a lot of good knowledge on how to do that. 

44:32
But culture seems to be working against us almost every step of the way, and so the things we've spoken about here today are really counter-cultural and we all kind of need that support and that you know that I, those ideas whispering in our head, and that community and that village of other people who are also making the decision not to give their 11 year old the smartphone, or to tell their nine year old that he can ride his bike to the library right, or to ask their four year old no, you can play, I'm going to do the laundry now, right? Who aren't just kind of giving in to the automated parenting that that is so prevalent in today's culture? 

45:06 - Katie Fenske (Host)
Love that. Okay, where. Where do you find you? Where are all of your? 

45:11 - Avital Levy (Guest)
Okay, so actually I have set up a. I have an unbreakable family kit and this is just for your listeners, Katie. So if anyone DMs me the word pancakes to my Instagram DMs, then I will then I would love to send them this, this kit, and what it is is basically it's a quick starter guide, right? It's a clear, practical roadmap with simple, powerful shifts, like we spoke about here today, that you can implement immediately to create this dynamic, this family dynamic that you really love. It's to empower parents, right. And so if you go on over to Instagram, you can just DM me I'm at HIFAM Life, so H-I-F-A-M Life, and that's my handle on YouTube as well and just DM me the word pancakes and I will send you that guide. And I can also invite your listeners to a breakthrough call, which would be a personal coaching call that I usually reserve just for my coaching clients, but I would like to help anyone listening to break through the mom guilt, to quiet the overwhelm, to address the biggest parenting challenges in real time so that they can feel empowered and confident and that self doubt that we were talking about in the beginning of our conversation. 

46:26
You know, I think it's no way to live, right, it's good to have a little bit of self reflection. It's good to be self critical from time to time and be like you know what. I need to adjust this, I need to apologize for that. A little bit of that is healthy. A lot of that can ruin your life. You feel guilty, you feel shame, you can't fall asleep at night, You're constantly second guessing, You're backtracking and wishy-washy on your boundaries. You're confusing everyone, including yourself, and I want to help everyone just to feel a lot more confident, a bit more like our boomer moms. You know who parented us and just did what they did. 

47:00 - Katie Fenske (Host)
It was fine it was, it wasn't that hard. 

47:04 - Avital Levy (Guest)
And I think they mean it. I think it wasn't that hard for them. 

47:06 - Katie Fenske (Host)
Yeah, I always ask my mom. I'm like, do you just not remember, or was it like not that bad? And I think I mean I wasn't the easiest child, but I don't I. I look back at my childhood and it looked like she loved what she was doing. 

47:22 - Avital Levy (Guest)
So and don't forget, they weren't comparing, comparing their backstage to everyone else's front stage on instagram and seeing everyone look like perfect christmas cards and you know ideal families, and they weren't inundated with a bajillion blog posts on. This is the one thing all mom moms of boys have to do, and this is the one thing that you're screwing up your kids. They weren't. They were just parenting the way their moms parented and not asking too many questions about it. So, for better or worse, at the very least we can say there was a sense of confidence and clarity and conviction, that we are missing today and that we deserve, and our children deserve, to Right. 

47:56 - Katie Fenske (Host)
And we can pick and choose the good from that and put it together with the stuff that we're learning now and become great parents. Exactly Love this. Oh my, you are fabulous. I I'm as we were talking. I'm like I'm going to use that clip on Instagram. I'm going to use that clip. I have so many clips now I want to use with your stuff. 

48:13 - Avital Levy (Guest)
It's awesome. 

48:13 - Katie Fenske (Host)
So I hope everyone checks out your Instagram and gets your your resource. 

48:19 - Avital Levy (Guest)
Thank you so much. 

48:23 - Katie Fenske (Host)
Katie, it's so wonderful to meet you and thanks for your time here, big special. Thank you so much, katie. It's so wonderful to meet you and thanks for your time here Big special. Thank you to Avital for answering all of my questions. I really felt like I was able to open up and share what we're going through, and she had so many good practical advice and I think it's true that she has a sense of not being very judgmental and, because she's not the quote unquote expert, she's a mom doing this with us. It just felt so relatable. So I really appreciate this conversation. Make sure to check out her Instagram so that you can get her free resources. Her YouTube channel is amazing, so go look that up as well. I was able to check out some of her videos and got some really great advice, but this was awesome, so I'm glad you all joined me for this and, like always, I'm reminding you that everyone burns their first pancake, so just keep flipping. Thank you. 


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