108. Encouraging Outdoor Adventures for Kids in a Digital Age

As a mom, I've watched my kids become seemingly mesmerized by their screens, and it's a struggle I know many parents face today. 

Join me, Katie Fenske, on this magical journey as I welcome Susie Spikol, a naturalist and the author of "Forest Magic for Kids," to the Burnt Pancakes Podcast. 

We share heartfelt stories and practical advice on how to rekindle your child's connection to nature amidst the overwhelming allure of technology. This episode is packed with inspiration and tools to help you encourage outdoor play that nurtures creativity, resilience, and a lifelong love for the natural world.

Together with Susie, we explore the incredible benefits of outdoor adventures, from climbing trees to hiking, all while balancing those ever-present parental safety concerns. 

Connect with Susie Spikol:
Her Book: https://amzn.to/4mDRJR2
Website: https://susiespikol.com
Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/susie-spikol-53500a238/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/susiespikol/reels/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/susie.spikolfaber/

📺 Watch the episode on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLOpw5ui4uxJHx0tLFVtpnfSkpObfc4d-K

You can find Katie at:
website: burntpancakes.com
YouTube: @burnt.pancakes
Instagram: @burntpancakeswithkatie
Email: katie@burntpancakes.com

🚽 Did you know Katie is also a Certified Potty Trainer? 🚽

☎️ Schedule a 1:1 chat today: Schedule Here
💻 Digital Potty Training Course HERE
📖 Potty Training E-Book HERE
🆓 FREE potty training resources HERE
Instagram: @itspottytime
Tiktok: @itspottytime_

Transcript

00:13 - Katie Fenske (Host)
Hello, hello, and welcome back to the burnt pancakes podcast, where we embrace the mess, laugh through the chaos and celebrate the magic that is motherhood. I am your host, katie Fenske, and I'm reminding moms that everyone burns their first pancake. Now, today we're stepping outside, literally, and I'm inviting a little enchantment into our lives with our special guest, Susie Spicol. Susie is a naturalist, a mom and the author of the new book Forest Magic for Kids how to Find Fairies, make a Secret Fort and Cook Up an Elfin Picnic. She spent her career helping people, especially kids, connect with the natural world, and today she's here to share why a pile of sticks might just be the key to creativity, resilience and wonder. Whether you're a seasoned hiker or someone who breaks the sweat just looking at a tent, this episode will leave you inspired to find a little magic right outside your front door. Susie, welcome to the podcast. 

01:15 - Susie Spikol (Guest)
Thanks, katie, I'm so excited to be here. 

01:17 - Katie Fenske (Host)
I'm excited this topic is going to be a fun one, because I have three boys and I think we could use more adventure and outdoors. That is my goal this summer is to get us out more, and I think we could use more adventure and outdoors. That is my goal this summer is to get us out more. So I think you're going to have some really good ideas for us. 

01:31 - Susie Spikol (Guest)
I love that. I'm excited, and what are the ages of your boys? 

01:35 - Katie Fenske (Host)
They are 11, seven and five. 

01:39 - Susie Spikol (Guest)
So fun, but you're definitely busy. I'm in it. Yeah, how old are yours? How old are you? Fun, but you're definitely busy. 

01:42 - Katie Fenske (Host)
I'm in it. Yeah, how old are yours? How old are you? 

01:44 - Susie Spikol (Guest)
20. My daughter's 25. My middle son is 23 and my youngest just turned 14 last week. Oh, my goodness so you can give us like hope that we're going to get through this. Yes, yes, you will get through it. It could be bumpy, but we all get through it. We all get through it. 

02:04 - Katie Fenske (Host)
And there's no easy stage, right Like you think about, like oh, how hard that newborn stages. I like just met with this mom the other day and she was just holding her baby while it slept and I'm like that feels really easy compared to what we're doing right now. 

02:19 - Susie Spikol (Guest)
I guess they get older the problems that they encounter are more real world, like they have bigger consequences. So it's a different type of parenting, but yeah, it's different. 

02:30 - Katie Fenske (Host)
We try fun all the way through a hundred percent true. Okay, so let's talk like outdoor play, and I think for us, the biggest thing is technology is so attractive to my kids that it takes everything I have to like keep them from going on it, and it's a constant fight. So how can I go from that is so enticing to getting them outdoors? 

02:57 - Susie Spikol (Guest)
Yes, I wish that I could say to you that my 14 year old son doesn't go on the computer. I mean that it would be ideal. But he same thing the computer. It's good to remember that those games and the way that we use computers now are just designed to be so stimulating. Right, Like, what are your boys doing on it? They're probably playing games, Is that true? Yep. 

03:24 - Katie Fenske (Host)
And they're very like quick. So it just like keeps their you know, short attention span going. And I have, um, there's some game called brawl stars that's on my phone. I tend to like never even let them touch my phone now, but it's to the point where they like have to check in once a day to get like the rewards or whatever. So he was like mom, mom, I need to get on there. I'm like no, you don't, we're not playing right now. He's like I know, but otherwise I'll miss the thing. I'm like that's how they do it. They like get them. 

03:52 - Susie Spikol (Guest)
It is. I mean, it is such a compelling device and it's so it is changing. It is fundamentally changing the way that our children play and interact with each other. 

04:05 - Katie Fenske (Host)
It is. 

04:06 - Susie Spikol (Guest)
I just just the other night, my 14 year old son came down and he you know there's a lot of transitions at 14. He'll go to high school next year. He just turned 14. There's the end of middle school. You know there's a lot going on. And he said I, I don't feel happy and I, you know, that's just so hard in your heart as a mom to hear that and also so incredibly brave of him to say that to put words to what he was feeling, and we had a lot of long talk, but I honestly think that some of his unhappiness is because he isn't. 

04:47
I honestly think that some of his unhappiness is because he isn't physically connecting with his friends. They're not out doing what 14 year olds did you know? Riding around on the bike. 

04:53 - Katie Fenske (Host)
I'll meet you on the corner, yeah. 

04:55 - Susie Spikol (Guest)
Getting in a little bit of trouble, pushing those physical boundaries, taking those little bits of risk, and instead their world is like yeah, it's virtual, he's communicating with his. Like virtual, yeah, it's virtual, he's communicating with his buddies. But it's, it's all flat yes and I just think it's so challenging and, as parents, it is. This is new for us too. We don't know how to navigate this, because this is brand new for us as parents, so I don't know. I mean, what have? What have you tried? Because maybe you've tried something that. 

05:26 - Katie Fenske (Host)
I could try Everything. Well, one when you're talking about that, I had this moment last night, so I do one-on-one consultations with parents about potty training and they, because they're all nationwide, worldwide, we're all virtual, so I'm like I love that I can do this virtually. Well, someone local wanted to meet in person. They were like friends of neighbors and I was like, great, let's meet in person. 

05:49
I like, literally, was nervous because, I'm like I'm so used to doing this kind of like just through the computer screen that I'm like I have to see them in person and I'm like, look at what my world has become. That I'm so like, wait, I need my computer to feel safe. So now we're looking at kids. Now that's like my son right now is they love to like text message. He has his iPad. We use his phone number just because I'm like I want his baseball friends to stay in touch and it was so cute at first, and now it's like all they do is send each other videos Like this is so stupid. I'm like, no, like I want you to just get out and be with them, yeah. 

06:26 - Susie Spikol (Guest)
It's very hard to make the outside world as exciting and compelling as the virtual world that they're in, where it's very graphic and you don't have to be patient. I mean outside there's a lot of patience you know, maybe you're failure. 

06:42 - Katie Fenske (Host)
Yeah Right Like maybe you're going to go fishing and you know, maybe you're failure. 

06:44 - Susie Spikol (Guest)
Yeah Right, like maybe you're going to go fishing and you know, if the fish don't bite in the first three minutes, you know they're going to pack it in. You give up. So yeah, it makes you really wonder about grit and kind of resiliency and their ability to think about what are appropriate risks to take. You know, I mean, I think it's really complicated, it's really hard. I I'm a big fan of time limits, like we have my son's time is. You know he's got a limited amount of time on his phone and I it shuts down and then there's a lot of negotiation that goes on. It's exhausting. 

07:28 - Katie Fenske (Host)
It's exhausting and I'm like I cannot believe a device like this has brought my son to tears. I love it and he doesn't even have a phone yet. I'm like I just I can't with it right now. 

07:39 - Susie Spikol (Guest)
I know and I just think a lot about my own personal modeling. You know, am I using my phone when I shouldn't be? 

07:47 - Katie Fenske (Host)
I totally am. Yep, I know we all are. It's our world now. 

07:51 - Susie Spikol (Guest)
Our world. You know, like, we have a no phones at dinner rule when we, when we're outside, you know we might bring our phones, but it's for photographing stuff. So I have some boundaries and rules around it, photographing stuff. 

08:07 - Katie Fenske (Host)
so I have some boundaries and rules around it, but it is not easy. It's. It is a constant right. Right, r1 is no games on the weekdays, so they're allowed to play on the weekends. So at least, even though it's still like can I play today? Nope, it's a school day. Like you can't, it's still. He still tries to push it, but at least it's a boundary that it's still he still tries to push it, but at least it's a boundary, that it's like okay, now, like you know, like you cannot do that, but it's hard. 

08:29 - Susie Spikol (Guest)
I really like that. We have a no game. Sunday you know my one day no games. We're just doing stuff as a family together. But even that's hard and there's some days when I break. I break the rule like maybe I'm sick or maybe I have to unexpectedly work or things like that. So I'm like oh yeah, you can use your phone. So it's never. I could be more consistent, but this is burnt pancakes. Every time I make pancakes, I burn them. 

09:02 - Katie Fenske (Host)
And it's not even the first one. It's all, exactly it's all has it changed since your oldest was this age, oh, yeah, so such a huge change. 

09:14 - Susie Spikol (Guest)
So my oldest is my daughter. She's never been a huge media person or screen time person she still really isn't. She's. She loves to read. She she's. She's graduating this weekend with a master's degree in library sciences oh, how awesome he's like that. But my middle son, um yeah, like when he was growing up, not not many of his friends had phones before eighth grade that's changed. 

09:41 - Katie Fenske (Host)
That is kids have phones. 

09:45 - Susie Spikol (Guest)
I work in a lot of public elementary schools, second grade, their hat, second grade I see them have phones, even sometimes younger um, so they also. They're um kind of the playing of games together. That technology has really grown. So you know fortnight or minecraft, where they can have their own worlds and their friends are invited, and that's really, I think, developed since my 23 year old, was 11 or 12. And I lived in a different situation when he was younger, where we didn't have any screens, we didn't have a TV, we had nothing, I didn't have a phone. Now I have a phone. 

10:24
So, yeah, the whole world's really changed. I mean, how about even with your three kids? Have you noticed your 16? 

10:31 - Katie Fenske (Host)
year old, I noticed because since the oldest is 11, the younger one is exposed to all of this. Earlier, like at five, my oldest was still watching Sesame street, and now it's like he watches what the brothers watch. He my when my oldest was five, he never played Minecraft. And now he's like oh, I'm going to make a world on Minecraft and you're like oh gosh, like you really get a lot. But what I'm seeing I think you brought up a good point was the game, the interactive games. 

11:00
Now, what's hard is the FOMO. Like I don't get to play on the weekdays, but they're all playing right now. And then they talk about it at school and it's just like I wish none of them played. And then, but this is where a couple of us moms are getting together and we're like this summer we need to get them off of that and outside. So how you're going to be the expert for us? How do we make the outside just as enticing? Like, how can we make it fun? And it's, I think, easier for the when they're little. When they get older, it's kind of like I don't want to go to the park. I don't want to do this. 

11:38
They're used to like organized sports. How do we just let them be? 

11:43 - Susie Spikol (Guest)
Yeah, I mean that's true. Our whole like way of kids playing outside has even changed, where kids are really in organized sports during their free time. When I grew up, nobody played organized sports. 

11:57 - Katie Fenske (Host)
I told my boys all the time I used to play in our playhouse we had a playhouse in our backyard for maybe two hours at a time Like my mom wouldn't bug me and I would just be out there playing. And like my boys cannot do that, they go outside for 10 minutes. They're like we come in. 

12:08 - Susie Spikol (Guest)
No, I'm like yeah, I know, I think it's. I think one thing to think about is developmentally, like what stage your child? 

12:17 - Katie Fenske (Host)
is at. 

12:19 - Susie Spikol (Guest)
And so when they're younger, you know having modeling and being with them outside. So starting young is really great and kind of being with them outside and then taking them to different places. I'm a big, huge fan of really hands on experiences, so if you're going to be near water, I always bring a little net in a bucket and we're always looking at what's living in the water. I think animals are really captivating for kids. They want to see the animals. So any way that you can see animals and it's physical. So ponding with a net or using a bug sweeping net to, you know, be on the land. Bird watching though that I have found and I love birds, so this is a bold same. 

13:06 - Katie Fenske (Host)
I'm like it's a one-packer. 

13:07 - Susie Spikol (Guest)
Look, and they're like it can be hard, like birdwatching is a lot of being quiet and a lot of being patient and a lot of waiting around, so I think x that for my boys. 

13:18 - Katie Fenske (Host)
Yeah, if you have active kids. 

13:20 - Susie Spikol (Guest)
Really think about never quiet ways, climbing trees you know, that kind of physicalness, the idea as as they get older, then expanding kind of the risks that you're willing to do with them, maybe if you can go camping or hike a big mountain or, um, you know, go out night, go on a night walk with flashlights, kind of up that adventure element. And it's really great to have friends, buddies. I have found that my kids are way more motivated when they have a friend with them than just me. 

13:59
And I think, trying different habitats, if you can travel to the ocean, if you can get to a woodlands, if you can get to a park, and outdoors has a lot of exciting elements. Think about like rock climbing or mountain climbing or whitewater canoeing. So finding maybe programs or opportunities for your child if you think they might want a little more risk in their life. 

14:25
Right and you might not feel comfortable. Like, don't sign me up for rock climbing because I'm scared of heights. But you know other things I love to. We love to go out at night and stargaze. 

14:38 - Katie Fenske (Host)
Okay, I love the idea of taking risks because I do feel like, especially for having boys, that is something they need. But it's really hard for us as parents especially. I don't know if we've gotten softer as we've gotten as the generations go, but like there's no more. Yeah, go ahead, climb that tree. It's like be careful, don't fall. Oh my gosh, you're too high. Like letting them try that is scary. 

15:05 - Susie Spikol (Guest)
Letting them try it is so important, though, because when you don't let them try it, then they're not developing their own concept of what they're capable of. 

15:14
And so they might be more willing to take even more dangerous risks as they get older because they haven't had any quote skin in the game. You know, they haven't skinned their knee or something like that. I live in New Hampshire. It gets pretty cold and icy here in the winter and when my youngest son was in elementary school there was a new principal and he came home this is hysterical His brand new snow pants, the knees were all ripped up and I was like this is weird. I was like what happened to your knees? And he said oh, we're not allowed to walk on the ice, we have to crawl because we might fall. And I just thought that was insane. Like how are kids going to learn how to walk on the ice if? 

15:58
you don't give them the chance. And I did go in and have a conversation and I can't be buying these pants every week what I imagined Katie was like driving up to the supermarket 10 years from now and seeing a bunch of teenagers when, on an icy day, crawling into the supermarket because they never learned to walk on ice like risk taking. It's scary and it's hard and we have to feel comfortable with it, but it's so important and you can also put some boundaries on that too. 

16:28
Like um, I work a lot with kids outside and um kind of unstructured playtime and we have a lot of boulders. In new hampshire it is the granite state. Oh, you want to climb the rocks and we just always say three points of contact and you have to be able to get up on your own and get down and get down. Yes, You're not helping you. 

16:49 - Katie Fenske (Host)
Right, Right, I know Cause. A lot of times my son will climb something and then he gets scared and I'm kind of like, if you can get up that high, you can get down Like I know you can. But then he'll be like, no, you have to pick me up and take me off. I'm like, no, I'm just going to stand back here, I'm going to help you. But sometimes when my boys are like climbing on stuff, I have to just turn around and not look like I'm just like I'm just not going to look like they're going to be fine. 

17:13 - Susie Spikol (Guest)
Just don't look Me too. Me too, it is terrifying. My son is really into very hard mountain biking. 

17:21 - Katie Fenske (Host)
Oh, wow. 

17:22 - Susie Spikol (Guest)
Races. 

17:23 - Katie Fenske (Host)
And. 

17:24 - Susie Spikol (Guest)
I cannot even watch their jumping stuff, but he loves it. 

17:29
He loves that brings them outside so that he's 14. That that kind of him against the physical opportunities that are out there, is really compelling for him. So you know, maybe think about some ways of stretching that for your children. And I do want to say that isn't the only way to be outside, that kids also need quiet time outside. You know, can they sit and just be quiet and find kind of solace in nature and recharge kind of themselves by being in the quiet of nature? 

18:07
So, maybe small opportunities for them to have solo time you know a little bit sit by this tree, see what you can see. Maybe it starts off as 30 seconds, but maybe, as they get older it's increased to a couple of minutes, to you know, an hour. 

18:23 - Katie Fenske (Host)
Right, right. Yeah, I wonder if I'm sure there's science on this, but research on what outdoor does to a child, cause you know they talk about grounding and earthing and how that's good for your bodies, but just the sunlight alone, like how that's good. 

18:39 - Susie Spikol (Guest)
Yeah, I've done some research into that, cause I'm always trying to. I work for a nonprofit where we go into schools and do nature education and we're always trying to be like this is great for your students and it is it's exposure to vitamin D that's sunlight, that they've done studies where they can tell, like people across all ages, their stress levels go down, their oxygen intake goes up. Their stress levels go down, their oxygen intake goes up, their cortisol levels decrease. So there are stress hormones come down. 

19:10 - Katie Fenske (Host)
And just from being outside being outside. 

19:13 - Susie Spikol (Guest)
20 minutes is a minimum. You know, two hours is like the gold. 

19:17 - Katie Fenske (Host)
Okay. 

19:18 - Susie Spikol (Guest)
But we all benefit, and even as parents like it's so easy for us to be like go outside and play. But maybe a good step is we go out. Let's all go out. 

19:28 - Katie Fenske (Host)
Yeah, I've heard too. There's some study about the sound of birds is supposed to be like very therapeutic. My husband would disagree, he's always like there's a bird making a nest on the roof up there. But I have heard before that like listening to the sound of birds is supposed to be stressful. 

19:46 - Susie Spikol (Guest)
Yeah, I think the sounds of nature. Some of the articles I've read studied, like what if people can't go outside? Or what if they live in a place where nature is less you know, it's limited. Right. But even that is important, like even if you live in a city and you go outside and you look up and you see the sky and you see the clouds and you see birds like pigeons or starlings or sparrows or whatever, it is still better for you to be outside than inside. 

20:19
And some of the studies show that if you start very young with your you know, kind of infants and you go outside it helps create those synapses in the brain because it's multi-sensory, so they're feeling the air on their skin, they're smelling the world around them, they're seeing light and dark and their eyes are kind of adjusting and all of that sound input is coming in. So it makes the brain fire, and I think if that's good for babies, it's probably good for us too. 

20:57 - Katie Fenske (Host)
Totally. I noticed too, when the boys are out they fight less. Like we went to the beach on Sunday and I was thinking about it later. I'm like I don't think they fought once while we were there, which is rare. And then sometimes we have like a little riverbed by our house that we can walk to. It is, I would say, like nasty. It's gross. There's like homeless people that live there, but they love exploring. They call it the mini desert because there's like cactus there and I'm like when we go there they don't fight. They're like throwing sticks together, but we get home the second. We get home. It's like constant fighting. 

21:28 - Susie Spikol (Guest)
Yeah, I've noticed that too when I work with school groups. Sometimes teachers will be like oh you better, this kid is trouble, and that might be true in the classroom. But outside a lot of times those kids are the real leaders of the group. They might be kids that are maybe more active and being inside a classroom is like too much structure for them, and then outside, that active awareness is making them really great outdoor leadership skills growing in them. 

22:00
So, yeah, I think you're. I love that story about your kids not fighting and I want to say to you go to the beach every day. 

22:07 - Katie Fenske (Host)
We're going all summer long. Oh my God, so true. I when, when you talk about classrooms like I, does it just kill you how much kids are in school and not getting out Like I was. I went and helped in my son's classroom the other day and I taught for 17 years, so I know the classroom thing. But I walked in there and just visually I was like there is too much happening. Like every inch of the wall was covered. There weren't any windows in the classroom, there was like one tiny one by the door and I was like I could not be in this room all day, like, but you feel like they've got to get this many minutes of language arts and this many minutes of math and this. How do you get outdoor time other than my recess? 

22:50 - Susie Spikol (Guest)
Yeah, that's such a disservice to kids and I think it makes kids feel sort of dead inside, I mean what is the goal of school? Is it to produce workers to work in cubicles? 

23:03 - Katie Fenske (Host)
Is it kind of feels like that sometimes. 

23:06 - Susie Spikol (Guest)
Is it to innovative thinkers and dreamers and poets and artists and scientists and tinkerers and I was. I'm so curious to hear from the difference between when you were in the classroom and what you're seeing your kids do Like. Is it a lot of screen-based learning versus maybe, when you? 

23:26 - Katie Fenske (Host)
they do have a lot more. Yeah, when I first started teaching, we had overhead projectors. It's been a while since I first started, but yeah, like it, we when I left the classroom, so I did homeschool for the last seven years. So I worked with homeschooled families. So I wasn't even in the classroom. Gosh, I left in 2011 was the last seven years. So I worked with homeschooled families. So I wasn't even in the classroom. Gosh, I left in 2011 was the last time I was in the classroom. But now it's like they all have computers starting in you know, kindergarten. They have iPads, they they have to do, you know, an hour of language arts, an hour of math every single week and it's just like it's a lot. 

24:03 - Susie Spikol (Guest)
It is a lot and I noticed. 

24:05 - Katie Fenske (Host)
Help me, sorry to interrupt, but I noticed when I went to help in the classroom with my first grader. It was just this little Christmas, like craft we were trying to put together Every kid. It was just like okay, we're going to string the beads onto the pipe cleaner. Can you help me? I can't, how do I, can you do it? They were so helpless and I was just like Can you help me? I can't, how do I, can you do it? They were so helpless and I was just like, oh my gosh, you guys were just stringing beads on a pipe cleaner. Why can't, I, can't do mine. 

24:35 - Susie Spikol (Guest)
How do I do it and can you do it for me? They were helpless. Oh my gosh, I have had such similar experiences. I feel like when you're talking, that you're you're me, because I've seen that and I experience it and I think, like this movement to screen-based learning, away from hands-on learning or tangible or manipulatives like think about, maybe, how math was taught. Yeah, you had things that you were cutting out, things that you were putting together. It's all a lot of it is now screen-based. 

25:08
And so kids are not developing the skills of kind of the fine motor skills of putting things together, taking them apart, and I think especially for kids who are not kind of auditory learners or visual learners but are more your hands-on learners, your doers as learners it's a real disservice. And then combine that with a decrease in recess time or outdoor time and you've got a really sad situation with kids and it's deadening inside. 

25:42
I mean it breaks my heart when my son says I say to him how was school? And he'll be like Hugo it was brain rot. 

25:50 - Katie Fenske (Host)
That my son says it's torture for children, it's like jail for kids, and I'm like being dramatic. But then do you feel like tight, like the public school is our option. You know like we could switch schools but they're all going to be the same. I can't change it and I definitely cannot homeschool my kids Like I, I'm the first to say I've worked with parents who homeschooled and they were amazing. I can't do that. I cannot have my kids home that much. But I'm like, but what's the option Like? Or put them in a like 30, $40,000 Montessori school or, you know, waldorf school, which it's? It's crazy. So it's like I, I don't know how to fix it. 

26:29 - Susie Spikol (Guest)
I know I struggle with that too, and I think what I've come around to is that I can't fix it. But what I can do is provide an alternative when he's not at school and that I mean I think I read recently that the average kid, like you know, eight or nine to 10 year old, spends like 10 hours of screen time. That's including school. 

26:52
So they're if they're at school, for, you know, eight hours there might be on the screen for six hours and then they come home and maybe they're watching TV or playing video games. It kind of adds up and all of that screen time is taking away kids free time to to be doing those things that kids need to do, which is play, and to play in a physical and imaginative way, and that can be inside. It can be outside. It should be with other kids in unstructured situations where parents are not coaching them or watching over them all the time. 

27:27 - Katie Fenske (Host)
Refereeing everything. Yes, my line is like you guys go figure it out. Like I can't constantly break up these fights, you guys figure it out. 

27:39 - Susie Spikol (Guest)
And that's true, and that is what kids need to be doing. That is part of growing up to being a functioning adult in our world is being able to figure stuff out that like that out. 

27:51 - Katie Fenske (Host)
Yeah. 

27:51 - Susie Spikol (Guest)
I my well, of course, because I'm a naturalist, I'm thinking a big part of that is kids need to be outside. All people do it's. It's like a human need in us, and when we're outside it is better for us, it's better for us physically, it is better for us mentally and it is definitely better for the environment, because you're making those connections to the outdoor world and then you're more interested in helping to protect it and take care of it. 

28:20 - Katie Fenske (Host)
It has a value. I love that. Okay, so let's get some ideas from your book um force magic for kids. Number one what inspired you to write it? 

28:37 - Susie Spikol (Guest)
Well, I just people might assume, somebody, being a naturalist, loves science, and I do love science, but I didn't start off loving science Like I was a kid that went outside not to do science but to look for fairies and gnomes and, you know, find out where the little mice were that were having all the adventures that I read about in books. 

28:52
So, and I've noticed that kids love story outside, they're always making up story. They'll find a little bug and they'll want to make up a story where it's mommy and daddy are, and as adults we know this bug doesn't have any idea where it's mommy and daddy. It's not, it's this different world. But that creation of story, that way of making it kind of connect to us as making sense to us in our world, I think it's really powerful for kids and for adults, and so I wanted to write a book that brought those story and nature where they kind of intersect, and I love it. I think it's really a magical opportunity for kids. I mean, kids should be living in a world where, yeah, maybe the mice in their world do talk or, you know, maybe there is a gnome hiding in the garden. 

29:44
Like that's part of childhood is this deep imagination, and the natural world is a great place for it, because there's no, there's no like boundary to it. It's, it's unbounded. It's unstructured enough that our imaginations can go really wild. I mean do your do your boys when they're at that stream. Are they kind of making up like this is this, you know, island is called this like. Are they kind of? 

30:10 - Katie Fenske (Host)
it's usually, uh, war related there's a battle and they're throwing rocks at things. Um, yeah, I'm trying to. Yeah, I should pay more attention to see if they come up with the stuff, because we're hitting that like 11 year old year where it's like it's I see glimpses still of him like play, pretend, play, but you're starting to like move out of it a little bit, so I'm still trying to keep them like go pretend you guys, go play army in the street, go like yeah. 

30:39 - Susie Spikol (Guest)
I mean and I think kids have been playing kind of army or war since the cowboys and indians, yes it's, and you know it, kind of it's sort of the story of good versus evil. It's, it's the story of every fairy tale. So, the fact that your kids are outside at a stream and they're, you know, throwing rocks at something, and I don't. I don't think anything's wrong with that, you know, as long as they're not hurting each other, it's their way of playing, it's right. Imaginative play. 

31:07 - Katie Fenske (Host)
Right, I do remember I had, um, I had to watch my friend's little girl after preschool one day, so let's see, they were both. It was my youngest was home and she was four, and so I just brought out a bucket and I was like, oh you guys. She started going can I take some of these pedal, like we pedals off the plants and like, sure, go ahead and make a soup. She was so excited they were making soup, putting this in and that in and mixing it around, and when his, her mom came, she's like, oh my gosh, I'm so sorry they made such a mess in your yard. I'm like they are having so much fun, like we're just going to leave this beat because they are having so much fun. 

31:42 - Susie Spikol (Guest)
Well, that's the great thing about nature too is okay, they might've made a mess on your lawn, but it wasn't in your house? 

31:49 - Katie Fenske (Host)
It wasn't. And it's all what biodegradable, I could just dump it on the lawn. It's not like, cause one time I let them play with baking soda and I didn't realize that bake it was baking soda and vinegar Like. 

32:00 - Susie Spikol (Guest)
Ooh, this is fun. 

32:00 - Katie Fenske (Host)
Let's do this in the front yard. It like burns the grass. And my husband's like why are there yellow spots? I'm like, oh God. I was like, why are there yellow spots? I'm like, oh God, why are there yellow spots? I was like I didn't know it was going to burn the ground. 

32:15 - Susie Spikol (Guest)
Oopsie, I love that. Well, I love that you gave them a pot to make soup in, because in my book Forest Magic for Kids there's a whole section on potion making which is like soup making Fun. You know, it's mud kitchen. It's sort of mixtures and kind of those loose parts of nature leaves, sticks, stones, petals, grass, you know whatever water and mixing it up together and that's. 

32:41
That's really a fundamental way of playing it's sort of experimenting and hands-on, and it can be imaginative if you're going to ask them well, what is your potion, or what kind of soup, or who's going to eat your cake? 

32:56 - Katie Fenske (Host)
Come to your store, make us a restaurant. 

32:59 - Susie Spikol (Guest)
Exactly I would come. So, yeah, so forest magic for kids is really filled with kind of activities like that and I think it's freeing as a grownup because sometimes nature books kind of have an assumption that parents know everything about nature you know, the name of the tree that you've got to find this kind of tree, or you know you got to hear these kinds of words. 

33:23
But if you're just doing imaginative play outside, you don't have to have all those answers. You can, as a parent, you can also be an imaginative player and creative player in it. And it frees you from having to hold any special knowledge. 

33:38 - Katie Fenske (Host)
Yeah, I like that too, because I think my generation of parents, we are very research-based, we like reading the parenting books, the blogs, so this gives us kind of a guideline to here's how to do it, cause we forgot how to do imaginative play. Like when they say, come play with me, it's like, well, how do I play with these Legos? I don't know. 

34:00 - Susie Spikol (Guest)
So it's kind of our version of a guidebook that we can use, it's true, and the imaginative play is harder play because it's asking you, when your child is asking you to pretend with them. They want to engage you in a world that they're in charge of. 

34:19 - Katie Fenske (Host)
Right. 

34:19 - Susie Spikol (Guest)
And that it's exhausting for us because maybe we don't want to be a cat in the day, but for them they're sort of in charge of the day and that's really powerful for them and it's important to give it to them. And so I say you know, do it when it feels like you have the capacity to do it and then step. 

34:40 - Katie Fenske (Host)
it's also really important for kids to learn how to play independently and for us to not direct the play, but to let them direct the play, and that's what my youngest is having a struggle right now, like he constantly wants me to be doing it with him and I'm like when I was your age, I just went off and did it for hours by myself is what I remember, but maybe my mom was like no, it was 20 minutes, but it was like like he just like can you play school with me? Can you play this? And I'm like you have brothers with them like play. I'm like here's a puppet, he's your student go. 

35:15 - Susie Spikol (Guest)
Yes, right, and we have to we're. I think we are busier than maybe our parents or our grandparents were in some ways, and we have more leisure time in other ways. You know what a lot of us are, coming from working families where both parents work, and maybe that wasn't what you grew up with and you know we're trying to get everything done and there's a lot more pressure. Plus, we're driving our kids to soccer games everywhere, yeah, everywhere. 

35:44
So there's just a lot on our plate, and I do think that I I it seems to me that I was a more independent player as a kid than my kids have been, but I also had parents that didn't. They were just like no, we're not doing it. Whereas I often will be like okay and then once you say yes, yeah. And you're easy, you're saying yes again. You're like, let's play that again. 

36:10 - Katie Fenske (Host)
That's so fun. 

36:11 - Susie Spikol (Guest)
But it's really fun. As a parent now of a 25 year old who's she's going to be so embarrassed when I tell this story. She loved cats and she always wanted to play cat and she, we had to talk cat language and I mean it was exhausting and she was a cat. I, she lived like a cat, you know, pretended like a cat. It's exhausting and I just I didn't like it all the time. You know why it's like. Why can't you put a different game? Or tired, can we play humans today? But she it was. But I missed that. Now it's like I think back on it and sometimes, when I call her, I'll be like meow. How are you, lily, meow, I love that. 

36:57 - Katie Fenske (Host)
Yeah, my boys like to play kitty sometime and they'll walk around little kitties. 

37:02 - Susie Spikol (Guest)
Another great idea that just made me remember thinking about Lily and her cat love of cats was she really got into it through a book and I think when you combine books and play it goes so hand in hand. Books are kind of like the imaginative place they, you know they are open ended in the sense a kid can imagine, especially a chapter book. So my daughter, lily loved the series called Warriors which is all about these cat gangs. 

37:34 - Katie Fenske (Host)
I know which one you're talking about. 

37:36 - Susie Spikol (Guest)
Yeah, and they're always having war. Yeah, it's basically a book of war. 

37:41 - Katie Fenske (Host)
I got it. I got an idea for a book Cats that Battle. 

37:45 - Susie Spikol (Guest)
Perfect. Why didn't I think of that? But I mean that book really. It gave her like almost two years of constant way of playing. And so you know this. We're about to hit summer. We have a lot of unstructured time. I say go to library, get your kids reading. Get them books and then you know be aware of what books they're reading and see if you can't help them kind of stretch that book into some sort of game that they're doing or activity. 

38:15 - Katie Fenske (Host)
That's fun. That is so fun. Okay, one of the things that you mentioned in your book is an Elfin picnic, so I need to know what that is. 

38:23 - Susie Spikol (Guest)
Oh my gosh, I love picnics and I think families don't picnic like maybe they used to Not like we know. 

38:30 - Katie Fenske (Host)
Sometimes I'll like say, hey, let's go eat outside, but then they're like it's hot. 

38:35 - Susie Spikol (Guest)
I mean, when was the last time you packed a picnic? 

38:39 - Katie Fenske (Host)
To the beach we packed an ice chest. But yeah, we don't ever picnic anymore. 

38:44 - Susie Spikol (Guest)
No, yeah, picnicking used to be like such a big thing that we people did to recreate. I mean, this is sort of nostalgia a long time ago of thinking about picnic baskets. So I just love the idea of a magical picnic where there's a little bit. There's something magical about a picnic. You spread out your sheet. Think of um Alice in Wonderland, like her whole adventure starts when they're reading after a picnic and in the woods. So the idea that, like you open up your blanket and you put food out and who's gonna show up, you know, yeah, maybe there'll be some elves. So an elfin picnic for me looks like you know a blanket and some foods that maybe an elf would like. So lots of fruits and this is a really good time of year to begin thinking about like strawberries, blueberries, mango, whatever fruits you are around. 

39:39
There's even a recipe in the book for a type of bread that they. There was a recipe in Lord of the Rings that the elves made that would go on journeys with them, and so it's lombos bread. So you could make your own type of fairy bread or elf bread and bring that, bring a couple of books to read, and then you could have your kids also make invitations and invite other people. And, of course, picnics always have to have good sweets, so some cupcakes or whatever chocolate, if I was coming to the picnic. So it's really just a way of eating outside together and adding a bit of a magical thing, and it doesn't have to look any special way other than how you and your children want to imagine it. So I would engage them and ask them what do you think we should bring on? A picnic? And maybe you're not going on an elephant picnic, maybe you're going on a gnome picnic or a troll picnic, which I would be excited to see. So, yeah, I think that and sharing food together outside is really special. 

40:45 - Katie Fenske (Host)
Well, I love all these ideas. Can you tell us where we can get your book? I love all these ideas. 

40:50 - Susie Spikol (Guest)
Can you tell us where we can get your book? Sure, yeah, forest Magic for Kids is available, hopefully, at any independent bookstore in your neighborhood, and if not, you can get it online through Amazon or Barnes and Noble. You can also visit my website at suziespicklecom and find how to order it from there? 

41:09 - Katie Fenske (Host)
Love that. And do you have social media? Oh yeah. 

41:12 - Susie Spikol (Guest)
I'm on Instagram just under Susie Spickel the only Susie Spickel that I know, that's a really unique name. But yes, please, and if you, I always love when people share, if they've done an activity from the book and they want to post a picture and then share it with me. 

41:36 - Katie Fenske (Host)
I'll repost it, okay, when we go on our adventures this summer. 

41:37 - Susie Spikol (Guest)
We are going to be tagging you in all of those. 

41:38 - Katie Fenske (Host)
That's the goal. The goal is like let's get out, let's explore or just find just random places to be. You know, it doesn't have to be like a pristine park or anything. 

41:48 - Susie Spikol (Guest)
Yes, get out, love it. 

41:51 - Katie Fenske (Host)
Thank you. This was so fun. I feel so inspired and you're such a joy to chat with you too. 

41:56 - Susie Spikol (Guest)
This was really fun, and I just want to say how much I really love the idea that as parents, we're not perfect and we're just all learning, and so I love the whole kind of burnt pancake concept, and I wish that when I had first started being a parent, that somebody had told me that 25 years ago you know same. Yeah, I love that. You always have to be perfect when it's you can't. 

42:21 - Katie Fenske (Host)
No, no, and our kids don't need us to be perfect Right and that's the lesson of parenting we do the best we can. 

42:28
I don't know about you, but I am ready to grab a notebook, hunt for a fairy and maybe even build a secret fort with my kids. That was so much fun. So a huge thanks to Susie for reminding us that nature doesn't have to be perfect or far away, it just has to be noticed. Now you can find her book Forest Magic for Kids wherever books are sold, or check the link in my show notes to get it directly. If this episode sparked something in you and you'd like to share it with another mom, that would be amazing. And leave me a review. While you're at it, and until next time, I want to remind you that everyone burns their first pancake, so just keep flipping.