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Real Talk with Tina and Ann
Tina and Ann met as journalists covering a capital murder trial, 15 years ago. Tina has been a tv and radio personality and has three children. Ann has a master's in counseling and has worked in the jail system, was a director of a battered woman's shelter/rape crisis center, worked as an assistant director at a school for children with autism, worked with abused kids and is currently raising her three children who have autism. She also is autistic and was told would not graduate high school, but as you can see, she has accomplished so much more. The duo share their stories of overcoming and interview people who are making it, despite what has happened. This is more than just two moms sharing their lives. This is two women who have overcome some of life's hardest obstacles. Join us every Wednesday as we go through life's journey together. There is purpose in the pain and hope in the journey.
Real Talk with Tina and Ann
When Your Own Body Throws a Plot Twist: A Survival Comedy with Best Selling Author Cara Lockwood
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Fear is not the enemy, until it starts running the show. In this episode, we sit down with USA Today bestselling author Cara Lockwood (aka Cara Tanamachi) to discuss her book, There Is No Good Book for This But I Wrote One Anyway: An Irreverent and Brutally Honest Guide to Crushing Breast Cancer, a refreshingly honest and laugh-out-loud take on navigating cancer.
A mom of five in a blended family and a survivor of stage 1 HER2+ invasive breast cancer, to unpack how medicine, humor, and unapologetic self-advocacy helped her get through sixteen months of treatment.
Cara Lockwood brings the same sharp wit and tender honesty from her book into this conversation as we talk double mastectomy decisions, reconstruction realities, naming the fear, picking out new boobs with her husband, and why laughter can steady your hands without ever replacing chemo.
This is not a story about pretending cancer is funny. It is about refusing to let fear have the final word. Cara shares what it looks like to sit with terror, tell the truth about your body, advocate fiercely in exam rooms, and still find moments of levity that make the unbearable survivable.
We talk about the emotional whiplash of diagnosis, the pressure to “stay positive,” the exhaustion of being brave, and the power of saying what you actually feel instead of what makes other people comfortable. This conversation is for anyone walking through cancer, caregiving, chronic illness, or any season where survival feels heavy and laughter feels risky but necessary.
If you have ever needed permission to laugh through tears, to ask better questions, to trust your instincts, or to take up space in your own healing, this episode will meet you right where you are.
Subscribe, share with someone who needs it, and leave a review to help more listeners find honest conversations like this. What question about cancer, fear, or healing do you want us to tackle next?
If you are a survivor or knows someone who is or if you just know someone who is going through a very difficult time, this episode will lighten your load and help you to find a smile.
You can reach Cara and her books at Tanamachi: Rom-Com Author & Your Next Great Read!
Kara’s Diagnosis And Treatment Overview
SPEAKER_00Welcome to Real Talk with Tina and Anne. I am Anne, and today we are walking into a topic that is heavy and oddly hilarious at the same time. We're going to talk about cancer. Yep, the big one. But I mean, don't go anywhere because I mean this isn't about the cancer that you see in a brochure. We're going to be talking about all of the really crazy parts of it with someone who has lived it within her body, in her marriage, in her motherhood, in her bank account, and in her soul. And somehow, she still managed to write a book that had me laughing out loud and wiping tears off of my face at the same time. Today I'm sitting down with USA Today best-selling romance author, who's written over 38 books and had one of her books turned into a lifetime original movie, I Do, but I don't. And she also had breast cancer. She's a breast cancer survivor. Kara Lockwood, also known as Kara Tanamachi, is a mom of a blended family of five kids, and in September of 2023, she was diagnosed with stage one, HER2, positive invasive breast cancer. She had 16 months of treatment that included a double mastectomy, 12 rounds of chemo, 26 rounds of immunotherapy, physical therapy, reconstruction, a port, and a whole lot of swearing. And now she is officially in remission. Her book, There is No Good Book for This, but I wrote one anyway, The Irreverent Guide to Crushing Breast Cancer, is honest and funny and tender and fierce. It's a kind of book I wish every oncologist had on their shelf to hand everyone on Diagnosis Day. So, Cara, I'm so honored to have you here today.
SPEAKER_02Thank you so much for having me. I'm I'm just so glad to be here.
SPEAKER_00This is one of the bravest books that I have read.
SPEAKER_02Thank you so much.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I mean it and and I read it with my coffee in hand, not my tea, not my tea. You know, I mean, and if you you have to read the book to know what I'm talking about.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
Humor As A Superpower
SPEAKER_00We're going to walk through so much of what you wrote. We're going to talk about fear, humor, money, losing your boobs, relationships, death, joy, and then new boobs that are not what the catalog promised, and why it's okay to say this sucks and still be hopeful at the same time. So, everyone, you are welcome here. Whether you are fighting cancer, loving someone who um is going through it, grieving someone that you've lost, or just trying to make sense of a world where everything can change in a single moment. I mean, I want to start right from the very beginning of your book because I knew I loved you as an author from page one. You quote, Tanya Massey, love and laughter are two of the most important universal treatments on the planet. But wait, no, no, no. I mean, no, immediately you just say, okay, actually, laughter isn't the best medicine. Medicine is the best medicine. Yeah. Please don't go tell your oncologist that some weirdo who wrote a book told you to skip chemo and just watch such a stand-up special.
SPEAKER_01I mean, exactly.
SPEAKER_00This sets the tone for your entire book. The way that you write made me keep turning that page. And I even Yeah, I I read parts to my nine-year-old and we laughed out loud. And it's a he's a boy, and he he still was la I said, Oh, you have to hear this. You just have to hear this. I never in a million years thought that I would laugh my way through a cancer book. I just want I I just want to thank you because I honestly think your approach will put the book in so many people's hands and keep them reading through the hard truths because they're surrounded by humor. And I think it's important to hold both things at once. And I even, okay, your armpit story, you know, and then the one where your the stranger is pinching your bleeder on your boob while you're talking about the weather and your MRI commando story and your thorough search on the internet to make sure that it didn't show up anywhere. I mean, come on, but you're also talking about something that is so serious and life-threatening, and you show that we can laugh in the worst of moments and maybe it does take the edge off because laughter or being shattered. And being shattered wasn't an option for you. Can you talk about how humor helped you through one of the hardest times in your life and how you put that humor on the page to help others?
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Well, I I love humor. I I it's it runs through almost all of my romance books because they tend to be romantic comedies, because you know, I I I think humor is just fun. I think, you know, we're uh what's more fun than laughing? You know, I I don't I can't think of anything. So um, you know, for me, humor uh is always the way I dealt with hardship in life. And, you know, when life dealt me cancer, uh, you know, I I I felt humor was a superpower to sort of deflate fear, which you know, fear is overwhelming when you get that diagnosis. But laughing at it and laughing at the absurd parts that happen throughout treatment is just a way to take your power back, you know, to show that you still have control because if you find it funny, then it can't be that scary, you know. It it it really can't. So uh for me, humor was just everything, you know. It's it it was the way I made it through appointments. And thank goodness my husband PJ, he's amazing and kept me laughing the entire time and even inappropriately in doctors' offices, uh, because absurd things happen. And if we should give ourselves permission to laugh because uh it's good for us. And uh it is good medicine, not the medicine, just goodness.
Facing Fear And Turbulence
SPEAKER_00Yes, yes. Uh, you open early with the reality that when you hear the word cancer, you know, your life is officially turned upside down, and nobody plans for this and puts this on their vision board. I mean, you you have all the stats on how many people get diagnosed with cancer and die from cancer, and you compare the cancer journey to climbing a mountain and flip-flops, which was so visual. Yeah, it's steep, you're not dressed for it. I mean, you're feet, I mean, everything that you have to go through. And you were not a rookie at life when you suddenly were dealt your new normal. You know, you have this blended family of five, you've written many books, you're a successful author. You had just turned 50 when you got the diagnosis. And I mean, when you realize that this was a journey with no exit ramp, when you think back to that woman sitting there newly diagnosed, what is the thing that you wish someone had whispered to you in that moment?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I think I I I would have loved to to have been told that I'm stronger than I think I am, you know. I think at that moment, I I think for a lot of people, you know, um I I have known friends that have gone through cancer. I have I have known, you know, brave people, but I always thought they were just better than me. You know, like honestly, like, you know, I mean, just stronger, braver things. And um uh, you know, if if I can do it, anyone can do it is is really what I would I would like to share with people because I think we sort of skip over that part of becoming the warrior and we just go straight to the end where you know they've been brave and they've done, you know, hard things. Um but everyone can do hard things. And um, you know, unfortunately, life deals us a fair number or fair share of hard things to deal with.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I mean, you use this powerful image, and I think that most of us know how to fight something that's outside of us, you know. We know how to fight that bully, that mean boss, you know, money problems or whatever. I mean, lots of times are on the outside of us, but this was inside of you, and you talk about your body betraying you. Can you talk about that?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I mean, honestly, the call was coming from inside the house. This is a classic case where you know the enemy's within. And um it it was difficult to wrap my head around that because there was a lot of I had a lot of anger. I felt betrayed, you know, by my own body. I thought we all agreed we're gonna live together, no one's gonna try to kill one another. And then the rest were secretly hatching this plot to kill us all. And uh, what? Wait, why? Um, and it was a journey to sort of get my arms around that. And I think really uh it started with uh understanding that like my brain is the adult and my body is the child that doesn't know you know any better. You know, the the cells in my body were a lot like you know, a toddler. Like, look at the things I can do, look at all these cells I could make, you know, look, I'm I'm doing it so well, you know. And my brain's like, no, that's wrong. I'm sorry, no, we can't do that. That's we have to stop that. So I think seeing like my body as like that that inner child doesn't know any better, isn't intending to kill us, you know, just doing this thing on on road automatically, you know, thinking it's a good thing when it isn't. So that was the first step to really sort of finding that enemy within.
SPEAKER_00You know, you bring to light that I think that one of the scariest parts of anything in life, really, it it for everybody, I think, is fear. And fear can take us through the absolute worst scenarios and it almost ends up with us dead. I mean, come on, it just does. And you even quote Robin Roberts, who said it's a uh it is about focusing on the fight and not the fright. And she went through this too. And I love how you go one step further and say that cancer is not even the most dangerous thing in your life. Fear is. So talk about that.
Identity, Body Betrayal, And Breasts
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I think that's the biggest hurdle, really, in front of anybody who's diagnosed, uh, is dealing with the fear because fear, it's like um one of my favorite songs by Pink, which is turbulence. You know, fear is fear is that turbulence shaking the plane. Uh but you feel like the plane's already crossed. Like fear is telling you the plane's crashed, everyone's dead, every all hope is lost. But it's what's happening in real life is just turbulence. Nothing, nothing has happened beyond that. So the cancer diagnosis is just that. It's turbulence. You you haven't died yet, you haven't, you know, you haven't been um you know, told told that that all is lost. But the fear is telling you that. And and that's honestly, it's it's just a natural reaction that we all have. It's a survival mechanism. You know, fear, if fear told you, hey, uh, maybe it'd be nice to to swim with sharks, right? You know, then we'd swim with sharks and and die, you know. Like versus versus going to that worst case scenario, you know, it's just trying to protect us. You know, I mean, I don't know how you feel about fear, but fear is a drama queen.
SPEAKER_00No. Fear always has me dead, especially in the nighttime. I mean, I think of my absolute worst things at night. I mean, I'm I'm just I'm gone, you know?
SPEAKER_01And yeah, worst case. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yep, absolutely. And I was I I mean, I clapped when you said Bink because I've seen her five times in concert. She's one of my favorites ever. Yes. And I knew that I liked you even more when you quoted her. And I loved that stat from 1980 to 2089 to 2020, where you said that breast cancer death rates dropped by 43%. I mean, that's encouraging. And yeah. Did you, with that thinking, were you able to stay in that light of thinking of like, you know, I'm still just plant flying the plane, but it's turbulence? Or did you keep crashing and have to bring yourself off the ground? Was it a constant with you?
SPEAKER_02You know, it's a constant. And I crashed a lot. Uh I crashed out a lot. Yeah, I mean, that's just normal human feelings. Um, but thankfully, like I it it took multiple ways uh for me to like tackle the fear. Like I um I went to a counselor and talked about my fear with a professional, which uh was incredibly helpful. I mean, of course, I talked about it with my husband and you know, family, but it's also hard to talk about how scared you are, you know, with people closest to you because you're also trying to be brave for them, you know. So that's hard. But for me, talking to a counselor was so important because she was just a voice of reason. The plane's not crashed. It hasn't crashed, you're still flying it, you know. Um, and that that resounding message again and again. Um, I did you know, I had to meditate, you know, because it's hard to you know, it's hard to feel like um you're dying when you're just breathing and everything's fine right this second, you know. So meditating kind of puts you in the moment and gets you out of your head for the future and you're just in now, which is important because you're not dying now. You're fine, right, right, right. Um so that um a lot of uh uh blasting uh my playlist, you know. Yeah a lot of that, uh for sure. Um, you know, it just it's a multi-pronged approach because you can be just going through your day and fear will hijack it. You know, you'll get a test result or a call or or for no other reason that you woke up in the morning and then suddenly you're scared, you know, because it's just sort of a a constant, you know, um reminder. So it takes it takes like per perseverance and like uh you gotta you gotta battle on all fronts, kind of at all times. I don't know if that makes sense.
Permission To Feel Everything
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and you you talked about irrational fears, and it was interesting to me that women were more afraid of losing their hair and you know, than dying. And honestly, I mean I understand it as a woman that we're so socialized to see our value and how we look, that the fear of rejection of people is even worse, or you know, that we might not have our hair or that we're scarred can feel more terrifying than the medical reality. And then there is the fear of losing our breasts. And I think that that would be absolutely huge because we identify so much with being a woman. And I I really do think that, you know, there's a lot of people that would feel like they are losing their womanhood. What what about that with you?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, well, that's an excellent point you make because it's it's so fascinating, I think, uh, for us as women, because we we do put so much of our identity, you know, in in our breasts because you know they're visible, they're you know how we feed our babies, you know, they're very to us. Uh they're they're also uh you know and attractive to you know our our partners. Um and yet at the same time, uh they're not essential to us. We they're not a heart or lungs, we don't need them to live. And yet um they're so important to our sense of identity and selves. And I went through quite quite a uh journey with this because uh I had needed a single massectomy and then I had to decide whether to get the double. And I it was it was a little bit of a struggle. I mean, I didn't didn't want the massectomy, first of all, at all. Um I had nursed my um two biological kids and uh just I just felt like you know, they were just such a part of me. I didn't know how, you know, I would I would function without them, you know, which is which is doesn't make logical sense because again, not something you need to breathe or eat or you know, walk, you know, do any of the things that you think of as essential to to being human. But it was um such a difficult place to mentally to get to to say goodbye to a part of me that I felt like was just just so integral to my sense of self since I was twelve, you know, and thirteen. So it it it's hard. It's hard to come to that, you know, uh feeling and that and that fear you talk about sort of conflates the two, right? It conflates um inflate.
SPEAKER_00Just kidding.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, what we want and yeah, what's actually necessary, you know.
SPEAKER_00Right, right.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it's really hard to get to, you know, um a real truth about it, I think.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I've I've had to learn that my fear is not a profit. You know, it it's just loud, and I need to have control over it and show it who's boss. And you you call your cancer she because she was in your breasts. But if it would have been in your colon, it would have been um he they. And I laughed so hard. But your point was to name the fear, yeah. Give it a face, you know. I mean, that was so empowering.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, because it's it is um, you know, an enemy you're fighting, and you should know what the enemy looks like, you know. Because I think, you know, in the horror movies when you don't see the ghost, it's always worse. And when you finally see it, you're like, oh, that's not actually not that bad. That's fine. So if you have it in shadow all the time, you can't really fight it in any kind of meaningful way. Exactly. Yeah. So naming it is so important. Naming that fear, giving it characteristics, give it a name if you want. I mean, you know, anything that sort of help you get your hands around it so that you can bite it.
SPEAKER_00You know, you really point out that this is everybody's journey, individual journey. And I really like that. You um, you know, this is your pity party. You say, if you want to eat ice cream and cry in the shower, that's your prerogative. If you want to watch reality TV and be alone, you know, do you. Yeah. So why was it important to say that instead of stay positive all the time?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, you know, it's interesting. I had I had very well-meaning friends. And and sometimes I would rant, you know, I would just rant because it's it's there's a lot of anger that comes out with cancer. Um, you know, and I I just also felt like I just wanted the cancer just dead. You know, I I did a uh a whole riff about um Al Capone from the Untouchables. Like I just I just want the cancer dead. I want its family dead. I want to toss her to the ground. You know, I just you know, I was just very angry at cancer. And uh this well-meaning friend was like, oh no, you have to be like very positive. You can't be you can't be negative like in this in this fight. Like you gotta be a you know, live, lap, love, everything's great. And I'm like, I don't I don't think that's how this works. I think you can't be incredibly salty and and that's positive too. It's wherever you get your strength from. You know, if you if you want to be salty and sarcastic and cursed a lot, do it. I mean, it's it's whatever gives you the power. Power over the cancer. Because I I do feel like there is um, you know, medical treatments and doctors are so important, but it also, I mean, attitude is important. You just don't have to show up as everything is rainbows and you know, crop a chance.
Self‑Advocacy And Second Opinions
SPEAKER_00No. It's not. No. Right. One thing I did not realize in your I had no idea that it took so long from diagnosis to actual treatment plan. And you talk about those weeks when it feels like the cancer is growing inside of you and you're in limbo, and that waiting could drive anybody crazy. I mean, in the middle of all of the needles and the scans and the machines, and you keep coming back to one thing, self-advocacy. And tell people that if appointments are taking too long, if things are falling through the cracks, if the best place for treatment is not down the street, speak up, ask questions, keep calling. Don't assume that silence means that you're fine. What did you learn about your own voice when you were stuck between we know it's cancer and here is what we're going to do about it?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. I mean, we have come so far, I think, in our treatment of cancer, and yet we have a long way to go. So I think it's better now. We know more, there are there's more research, there's more plans of action for certain kinds of cancer, um, you know, more hospital networks just sort of have a plan of action, like you're gonna see this person, you're gonna see this person. At the same time, um, your cancer is never gonna be as urgent to anyone else as it is to you.
SPEAKER_01Right, right.
SPEAKER_02Well, and become sort of like this this cog and a wheel, this like, you know, okay, um disappointment, but oh, it might take three weeks to get into your MRI, or you know, a month to get over here to get your biopsy, or you know, we try to we try to hurry it up, but you know, there's a waiting list for for whatever. Um, and the clock is ticking. I mean, it is uh is a time, it's like six weeks from diagnosis where treatment needs to begin. So um there is a it shows that you know, if your chances of survival increase if you get treatment within that time, um all of the things look a lot better if you start, you know, earlier. Um so, but at the same time, like, you know, the scheduling person may or may not be aware of the urgency, you know. So for me, it was really about asking that follow-up question, you know, and and I don't I don't think you need to be rude to to you know, people just trying to do their jobs and inundated with making these kinds of appointments. But to me, it was just about asking that like, is there another appointment? Can I go, can I drive farther? Can I, you know, what are some options? You know, I have friends that live in other cities. Can I, you know, can I get a a sooner test, you know? And I think having that, advocating for yourself, you know, speaking up, raising your hand, you know, can only help you. Um, because it's it's really your journey and you're gonna be you're gonna have to pilot the ship. Like this is this is a case where you can't you can't like just farm out, you know, um whatever you want to do to somebody else. Like you you you're gonna have to to to really drive it. And so ask those questions, you know, be be loud. I think that's fine.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, you can't worry about being a bother.
SPEAKER_02Right, right. Especially not now. And I always think we're told often, like, just you know, just be happy with it. Yes, you'll be fine.
SPEAKER_00Yes, exactly. And I often say, like, to a doctor or whatever, you know, well, what would you do if this was your mom or your kid? Or, you know, do it as if you, you know, I mean, that it that should be the urgency, as if it was your own family member.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And if you find a doctor that you just don't feel like you're communicating well with or isn't listening to some of the concerns that you have, you know, find another one. Get it get another get another doctor and network. Um, you know, we don't always have the the greatest choices depending on our insurance, but um, it's worth the call. It's worth a second opinion, you know. Right. Um to have somebody that you trust who listens. Because I think, you know, doctors are just people. And so we get along with some people better than other people, we communicate better with some people. Sure.
SPEAKER_00It doesn't want to maybe we want a man other than a woman or a man, you know, yeah. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02I feel like I was lucky I had a team of women. Um male doctors are I had a second a couple of second opinions from male doctors who seem very knowledgeable, but um, you know, it it was it was helpful just to speak to a woman about you know losing your breasts since she would know what that feels like.
Telling Loved Ones And Navigating Reactions
SPEAKER_00Right. I w I want to talk about what I I think would be one of the hardest things, and that's telling loved ones. And you have an entire section on this. You talk about how hard it was to tell your mom and actually saying the words out loud. And there's a private knowing and then a public witnessing. Can you talk about that?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I think it's one of the hardest things because uh when you're telling people this bad news about cancer, every time you say it, you're telling yourself too. You know, it's it's just a reinforcement of the bad news you already know. Um, and I don't know about other people, but when I woke up with it every morning, it was like the bad news that you know, I was like, oh wait, something terrible's going on.
SPEAKER_03Right.
SPEAKER_02I had that little brief snippet of sleep that was fine. So telling uh my loved ones, I mean, it was just a bomb in their days. It just blew up their day. You know, the closer someone was to me, the worse the news was. And uh, you know, it just it's such an icky feeling because not only are you dealing with this, but then you're telling, you're just ruining someone else's day. That's just terrible news.
SPEAKER_00Um isn't that interesting that that's how we think as women?
SPEAKER_02I know, I know, I know. You think I would be like, yeah, I don't I don't know that men would feel the same.
SPEAKER_00I don't think so either. They have no problem doing that to us. I'm sick. I have a cold. I have a cold, you need to take care of me, you know.
SPEAKER_02My fault is everyone's problem now.
SPEAKER_00Yes, absolutely.
SPEAKER_02Um, I have cancer. I I don't want it to be a problem. Is that a problem?
SPEAKER_00Oh my gosh, that's so true. But what I also loved is that you can control who you tell, you know, who you let in during that time. I mean, that's so important. Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_02And I would just like to underscore too, we're we're so often like, I don't want to be a bother. Um, so so I think some women default toward keeping keeping it in and not telling a lot of people, but you do need the support. Like you do need to understand and help. And um, you might not always get the help you want, but uh it's important to have um a support system. So it is important to identify the people you want to talk with. Yes. Um, tell and you can, you can do it on your schedule, you can do it as slowly or as quickly as you want. You know, I mean, this is your news to tell, and you can tell it how you want. So you can, I mean, for me, I I really only had the energy to tell like a a few people like out of time, you know, just a a a person here or there over a period of like a week or two weeks. Like it took a while because I every time I told someone it was awful, and you know, had to like gear up and tell someone else. And uh, you know, it was important to me to reach out to to the people closest to me one-on-one and not make a big social media announcement. Not that I would judge anybody for doing that. Um, I just knew in my circle of friends they'd be like, hey, I found out on Facebook or Instagram. What are you? Aren't we not friends anymore? What the heck? Um, you know, so uh it really is dependent on your circle and your group, but um it's important, it's important to tell the news. And uh also um, you know, it's it's difficult too because you may not always get instantly the support that you're you're looking for, you know, at the time, because uh it's important to keep in mind that this is scary news for people, and often um the way they react um is is is like sort of platitudes or rushing ahead, everything's gonna be fine, or you know, trying to figure out if it runs in your family or you know. It's just it's just like that human need to be like, how do I take this bad news and then use it in my life to make sure this doesn't happen to me, which sounds selfish, but honestly, it's just a survival mechanism. You know, it's back when we were hunters and gatherers. If somebody came back and said there was a poisonous mushroom, we were like, Where is it? What does it look like? How do I avoid it? You know, if they saw a bear, okay, where? Where do I how do I avoid it? Like, you know, I mean, these are it's just survival. But um, so it's important to sort of brace yourself for that too when you're when you're giving bad news to the people closest to you.
SPEAKER_00And you point, yeah, you point out that uh, you know, there's gonna be a lot of people that don't react their way the right way. They're gonna say the wrong things. And you ha you gave examples of that. And you know, I think I might have been that pivot person um every now and then in life. Oh, okay, well, you know, the Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02I mean, you will get the the pity and pivot, which is I'm so sorry, so sorry. And hey, did you hear about the our neighbor, some of our house? Like, what are we in the fucking Yeah? Let's talk about her, let's talk about her divorce. That wouldn't that be great? Um But uh yeah, and I I think it's just because we're it's uncomfortable, you know. Yes, we want we want our our friends and family to be happy and healthy and not, you know. Um I think in cases like these, the best thing to do is just to let the other person lead. Ask curious, open-ended questions, you know. Yes.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_00Okay. What what did you want people to say to you?
SPEAKER_02Yeah. I mean, I I think the best thing is like, you know, how are you feeling? How are you dealing with all that, you know? What's what is, you know, uh right now, what's like the the thing that's weighing on you the most, you know? Those are just open-ended questions. Uh, you're not assuming that um I've already decided treatment. You're not assuming that I want your advice on treatment, you know. Um because it's having that diagnosis is so overwhelming. You have to talk it out a lot of times with your friends, and you may not know what's um the biggest hurdle for you right now. Like, but if someone asks you an open-ended question, you may start to think, oh, you know what? I'm scared to death. That's what's that's that's the thing that's bothering me the most right now, you know, and you get into an honest conversation where you don't feel so scared anymore. Yeah. I I think honest open questions are are the best, and just being there, you know.
SPEAKER_00Okay. Oh, those canned responses of I hate, um, you know, everything happens for a reason, those kind of things. And you know, I've had this before where people say, just give it to the Lord and everything will be fine. And I'm just thinking, no, it won't. No, no, it won't. What it's not gonna change anything.
SPEAKER_02Well, exactly. I mean, it's it's those kinds of platitudes help the speaker feel better, you know. If they feel like that, you can just hand it to God and everything's fine, then then maybe they don't have to show up, you know, in a certain way.
SPEAKER_00There you go.
SPEAKER_02Right? They that then it also absolves them of responsibility or accountability. It's like, you know, you this is your problem or God's problem. It's not, you know, I don't actually have to like step up right now because that's scaring me. Like, what does that mean? Right, is that gonna do, you know, what does that mean for me? Yeah. You know, I you know, people lean on faith, and I think that's great throughout church. Um, I also feel like, you know, growing up, um our family pastor had a had a story about um, you know, God sending uh uh you know a very faithful man who had a flood getting up on top of his roof, and then you know, God sending a boat, and then God sending the helicopter, and then God sending another rescue team.
SPEAKER_00I know this one.
SPEAKER_02The Lord's gonna save me. And then he goes to heaven and he's like, Why did what we're where were we? God's like, Well, I sent a boat and I sent a helicopter and then all these other things. So um, you know, it's I don't feel like it's a straight line, like that God's just gonna come down and and handle it and touch you and heal you, and then everything's great, but he may very well send an army of people to help, you know, doctors and guns, and you know, um, so I I would say don't absolve yourself of the responsibility of showing up and and you know working some miracles on your own, you know, with friends and and family. Because I think I think it's important that we all we all come together and and support one another, especially in trying times like like cancer. Like that's that's really the way to get through it, I think.
SPEAKER_00It made my mind go to what would the standard greeting card be for something like this?
SPEAKER_02Right. Right. Uh there's there's no good, there's no good no good saying for this. There's you know. Um yeah. I mean, it's also okay just to say, I don't know what to say, you know.
SPEAKER_00Exactly. Or just be with the person.
Mindset, Movement, And Mental Health
SPEAKER_02Yeah, but like you love you, and I'm you know, um, I hate this is happening. Like, you know, yeah.
SPEAKER_00You bring in Mr. Rogers and you quote him saying, When I was a boy and I would see scary things in the news, my mother would say, Look for the helpers. And you will always find people who are helping, you know, always. And many might not say the right thing, but they might do the right thing. I mean, that was really important. So, what did help look like for you?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, you know, I was um really moved by um just the concern and the care. You know, there's so many people in my life showed up with lasagna baked lasagna, you know, uh got meal trains going, um, picked up kids from school and and throw them around, you know, when I couldn't. Um, you know, uh it doesn't have to be a big grand gesture. It can be something very small, you know. It can be going to the grocery store and picking something up. You know, it could just be like, Do you need something? I'm at the store. Um, very small. Like it doesn't have to disrupt your entire, you know, day, you know, to help to help someone. See. Um, but just to be seen and felt and and the doctors and nurses were are are amazing and often don't get the credit they deserve. They get a lot of uh angry patients who are not who are not happy about things that are really not their fault, you know. Doctors get sick and they have to cancel appointments, you know. I mean, this just happens. Um so yeah, it's I I think um being grateful and looking for that gratitude is so important because uh things can always get a whole lot worse very quickly. So so being grateful for the things that are going right, uh for the people that are showing up, you know, not everyone's gonna show up, but that's okay. You know, I'd say just let them go and uh focus on the people in your life who are there for you and are showing up because it can't get a whole lot worse really quickly. So gratitude's important, I think.
SPEAKER_00And it can feel so lonely, I'm sure. And you're you were very clear in that, you know, stay away from that no I'm fine thing. You know, l let people in. Don't be that martyr. Let them help you. Um, because we as women, again, are we're the ones that are normally helping other people. So it's kind of hard to be able to say, yes, I really do need your help. Thank you.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. I mean, I I um, you know, was a divorced mom for for eight years and uh, you know, uh basically, you know, a single parent for a long time. And uh it I just felt like so much of my identity too was wrapped up and I've got this. I don't need help. I'm no, I'm fine. I I'm supporting myself, I'm you know, getting the kids to school, I'm handling it, everything's handled, you know. And then if I if I admitted that it wasn't handled, I don't know. So someone would come take my mom card. I don't, I don't know. I don't know. But um it is important to ask for help. And I think, at least for me, a key part of um talking to my my therapist and and really doing a lot of introspection and a lot of internal work was to get to the point where I felt like I deserved the help, you know. I mean because I think I think it was um e like I didn't want to be a bother. And and like, but why don't you want to be a bother? Like, why don't you want, you know, if you feel because underneath that, if you peel back all the layers, it can be maybe I don't feel like I deserve it, you know. Maybe I I don't think I'm I'm important enough to interrupt people, to inconvenience people, you know, to put people on the spot. Uh and I think doing a lot of internal work and feeling like, you know, not only should I ask for help, I deserve it. Like I'm a very good person. Yeah, I I I am a great mom. I am a good friend, I'm a great friend, I I am here for people, and so I deserve to to have people care for me too. And so I think it's getting there. It's it's so hard to get there. I mean, I don't know how you feel about it, but it's it's so hard to get to that inner place.
SPEAKER_00Oh, it is because I I feel like I'm superwoman sometimes, or I try to be, and and I we are made to handle everything. Oh, I got it. You know, everybody's walking into the house with nothing in their hands, and I've got 50 things in my hand. I mean, that's just the way it goes. They're all like, oh, mom's got it. Don't worry about it, you know?
SPEAKER_02Exactly. I've got dinner and I've got the extracurriculars, and I've got, you know, the the birthday shopping, and I've got all the things, you know, and everyone's gonna feel special and everything's gonna be perfect.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. Exactly.
SPEAKER_02My house is gonna be clean and decorated, and don't worry. Also, I'm doing my career, it's fine. I got everything. Um, yeah, it's a it's a heavy load uh for us. And I think when it comes to cancer just really refocuses your attention, uh, you know, away from um some things that, you know, maybe maybe having the house not not quite spotless is okay. You know, it's okay.
unknownOkay.
SPEAKER_02But I think too, it's it's good to let go of some of those expectations we have of our kids and our spouse. You know, a little bit like, you know, well, they're not gonna do this. They're not gonna do the dishes, so I need to do the dishes. They're not gonna cook, so I need to cook. Like, you know, that that whole feeling of like, well, if I don't do it, no one will. You know, I think um it's kind of a reset time where you can just ask. You can just say it's very important to me that you guys do X, Y, and Z.
SPEAKER_01I can't do it right now.
SPEAKER_02Like I, you know, and I would really love the help. And then maybe after when you're in remission, um, I can't guarantee it, but maybe the dishwasher will get, you know, emptied every now and again.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I like that part in your book too. Um, how you just kind of used it as an excuse sometimes to get out of certain things. So I mean, that was uh that was a little humorous.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and and do that. You don't do it with laundry, don't do it. Tell someone else in the house to do it.
Systems, Costs, And Access To Care
SPEAKER_00Right. You know, you talk about um appointments and treatments, but you also talk about stress, anxiety, and depression. And you say that one in four cancer patients experience depression, which I actually felt what might be low, because I thought, gosh, you know, everybody might feel some depression while they're going through it. And you make a big point that your mind is one of your greatest weapons. You quote Buddha, the mind is everything. What you think you become, and I say this all the time. I mean, you talk about getting on the treadmill, sweating, listening to music, which you kind of touched on a little bit, basically crying while while power walking and yelling at your cancer, you know, you don't have control over me. You don't own me. I do. So can you talk about that season where movement and counseling became part of your fight?
SPEAKER_02Yeah. I mean, I think um the mind-body connection is so important. Mind, body, and severe, it's like all together. And I feel like for me, the way to like just really focus all of them, you know, I I hit the treadmill in the basement, you know, with with uh uh an amazing playlist of all my most empowering songs. And, you know, I was you know, just really able to focus my mind on what I wanted to do, which was beat cancer. Like it um and I and I, you know, would sit on that treadmill for an hour, like just just really, you know, um power walking into death. Um I I think it's just it the power of our intentions and where we put our focus um is so great. We we tend to feel like uh with with cancer hits, you feel like powerless, like you know, everything's out of your control, you're just running around, you're going to doctors, you're you're not sure what's gonna happen. Um, but cancer doesn't get to decide. You know, you you get to decide your treatment, how you feel about it. You still have a lot of agency and that and that focus of your mind, where you want to go, what you want to be, visualizing where you would like to be, what cancer is, what what you want to be doing. I mean, these are all incredibly powerful tools, not just to keep your mood elevated, but I think to you know help you fight it. You know, I think I think visualizing where you're gonna be um will help it come true. So if you're feeling like, oh, I'm gonna I I'm just gonna be beaten by this, then you probably will. It's just like you know, Henry Ford said, if you if you think you can or you think you can't, you're right. Like it's you know, it's it's really there's a lot in us, and and we should tap into that that great power that's inside us, I think. I don't know how you feel about it.
SPEAKER_00Well, yeah, absolutely. I I agree. And I love the line that your body showed up for you because you showed up for it. And you know, that's so true for so many kinds of trauma and healing. I mean, not just cancer, but in everything. I mean, you really uh stress how important it is to go into this fight or really any fight healthy.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. And, you know, uh, I think uh the diagnosis was really a wake-up call because I had, you know, I had not been walking, I had not been exercising, I had not been eating great, you know, I had uh gained the the COVID-15 and didn't much care, you know. Like I just, you know, was drinking whey too much. Like I I I knew I was not living the healthiest lifestyle I could. And this was really a wake-up call because uh, you know, getting uh I I I realized that, you know, my body's what I have. That's that is that is that is, you know, my soul's residence right now. And uh I needed to do some good maintenance on it in order, you know, to to live the uh a longer life. And I think it's important for us to to not discount how important it is to be healthy. And I don't mean like the absolute healthiest six-pack ab, you know, a terminator version of yourself. You know, I think that's right, that's hard for any of us to achieve, but there are small things we can all do. We can all eat some more fruits and vegetables. That's not a big thing, you know. Right. We can all, you know, move our bodies a little more. Like, you know, we don't have to run marathons, but we can go for walks. And and these things are are are really important for our bodies to to stay healthy. And if we want if we want our bodies to treat us well, we need to treat our bodies well.
SPEAKER_00You know, I found it interesting. Um, and if we we do have to do those things because of this, and this was scary to me, but I also know that it's true. And you bring up the Commonwealth Fund study that shows our healthcare system is one of the most expensive in the world, and yet we are the sickest people and in than any other industrialized nation. We die younger and we have a harder time affording basic care. But no pun intended. I mean, it sickens me to see all of that. And we we ranked last on access to care and health outcomes compared to places like Germany and Canada, France, and other places. And we live the shortest lives and face the most avoidable deaths, which a third of Americans you say report that some kind of medical, they report some kind of medical error. And I just know somebody who died of cancer. Uh, and they it was because of medical error. And it's just it's not okay. There are so many people with medical debt bankruptcies in this country. I mean, this entire section of your book could have been a book.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Oh, absolutely. I mean, we need so many reforms to our system. It's just um my gosh, it's completely mind-boggling how uh how it's become so politicized too when health shouldn't, you know, getting cancer care should not be a political topic. It should exactly you know, it doesn't uh it doesn't make sense. It it was interesting. I was in um Melbourne, Australia for a book conference uh this last summer, and my husband went with me and he he had a lingering cold that turned into bronchitis. He was worried it was spoken. And uh he wanted to go to urgent care, you know, just to get some you know antibiotics. And uh, but we were very worried. We were like, oh gosh, how much is this gonna cost? Like, you know, I don't think blue cross is gonna cover us out here in Melbourne. Like, this is gonna be bad. Um we we called urgent care and uh they're like, you know, look, we how much is this gonna be? And they're like, what can be? And we're like, well, we're from America and we have American insurance. And the the nurse on the phone literally said, Oh, I've heard of this. So you you have to pay, you have to pay yourself for health care. It's like, yes. She's like, No, this is this is uh this is tax dollars sent to the government that that pays that pays for the clinic, so you come in, there is no charge. I'm like, what do you mean there is no charge? Isn't that unbelievable that that's the way it is? Uh yeah, it's just a and as we were in urgent care, and we had to wait, but you have to wait at every urgent care. Um it wasn't a it was a you know a couple of hours as you do for every urgent care, and people came in for all kinds of things, you know, but just uh the approach is so different, I think, because here for some reason we've we've only decided that certain jobs get health care, certain people get health care. I don't I don't really understand why that that has become the discussion, but it has led to some terrible outcomes. Like uh I I I think people don't understand like uh real world consequences for uh the the system that we have. We need so many reforms and uh we do. Unfortunately, I I don't know, I don't know if they're gonna happen, but uh we just need a a shift about who deserves care, everyone.
SPEAKER_00Right. Yeah, you talk about that. And then something you said in your book uh for those who don't see themselves represented in the medical system who are women, people of color disabled, or and I add a disabled because I know so many people with disabilities who just feel talked over. What are some questions or phrases that we can put in our back pocket to and when we're sitting in the exam room?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I think you know, for for all of these groups, I think it's really important for you to do your own research too. You know, I um I was shocked to learn, uh, not from my doctor, but from uh my own research that uh Asian American women are um uh having more and more cancer diagnosis, more breast cancer diagnosis. They're they are on the rise where other groups are uh they're faster than other groups, uh, which was shocking. I did not know that, you know. Um I I think there's still some bias in medicine. So I think because cancer rates among Asian Americans have you know been lower, I think there's there's sometimes there's a hesitancy to even think, you know, that you might have cancer. You know, I so I I think those kinds of you know biases exist in medicine. So I think the first thing you can do is just arm yourself with information and do all of your own research about your your own your own background, your own, your own specific circumstances, so that you're you're well armed with information when you go to the doctor and ask questions too. I I think it's I think doctors often have the information, but they don't necessarily think it's something they could share. Like, so if you if you say, well, you know, if you're going into to uh a primary care doctor and you're worried about your heart, you can say, like, are there specific things about heart disease that are different for women? And you can say that is it different for women, is it different for this racial group? Is it different for this this person with this disability? What do you know about that? And sometimes they'll even say, Oh, I should do some research and get back to you. Like, I'm not sure. But then then they can do research and get back to you. So I think you know, it it can be as simple as, you know, just the the raising of the hand of what about women in this case? What about this group? What should should I be worried because I have a family history of X, you know? Right, right, right. Yeah, you know, um, I I think the more information and the the better dialogue you can have with your doctor, the better, you know, the better reform you'll be.
Work, Money, And Finding Resources
SPEAKER_00I think one of the most important points is that you have to go through, though. You've got to go through. And you talk about bargaining and trying to make deals with the universe, you talk about denial and anger and the depression that we talked about, all the stages. You know, you tell one of my favorite stories in the book. Um, you and your daughter are Taylor Swift people, and your youngest is a huge Swifty. So you tried to get tickets and then you failed. The concert came and went, then you realize that there's a show in London, and then you get the diagnosis. Yeah. And suddenly it is not just, well, we have the money to go, it's will I be alive? Yeah. So how did that show become part of your fight to get you to the other side?
SPEAKER_02You know, it was it was huge. So um, we live in near Chicago, and you know, Taylor Swift came on our Eras tour, and we could not get tickets. We were some of the people that sat in the room for hours, you know, sat on Ticketmaster trying to get them. Yes, denied, denied. We got in, they got kicked out. Like, you know, it was just a nightmare. We couldn't get tickets. And then the resale tickets were a thousand dollars each.
SPEAKER_01Unbelievable.
SPEAKER_02And I was like, This can't be right. Like this or$1,500, you know, and so if you wanted to see her, it was gonna be$2,000 a seat, you know. And I was like, this, even in the nosebleats. I was like, this cannot oh man. This can't be right. Um and my my daughter, who's lovely, she was just like, Don't worry, mom, it's fine. And then the c concert came, and then what I didn't realize is a bunch of people just stood outside the stadium, which we could have done for free, you know, but I didn't know that. Okay. But then she had just a stream in her feed of all of her friends that went and all of the beautiful pictures, and and and I mean, it was really hard for her because some of the friends like barely paints and got to go for whatever reason. And, you know, it was really difficult. And then she um she and her stepbrother were going on a um school funded trip so uh to to London uh when Taylor Swift was going to be there. So we were like, great, why don't we they're going, we'll just meet them on the tail end. Because they actually they were in Vienna and and going through parts of Europe, and I was like, we'll just meet them and like skip over to London, have a concert, go home. Like it it'll be just a little like family trip, you know, half of what's paid for. We should be good. And and then the cancer diagnosis came. And we had already gotten the tickets, we were about to book flights, and then I was like, Can I even can I do this? Can I can I do this? But I I went to my doctors and was just very honest with the doctors and nurses, and I was like, look, I disappointed my daughter once. I I don't want to do that again. Like, this is this is all she's ever wanted. This was the only thing she ever wanted for like two years of birthday and and holiday gifts. This is all she wanted. Like, yeah, I just really want to try to make this this happen. And they got right on board. They're like, I get it. I'm a I'm a Swifty, or I know people who are, or I totally understand, or absolutely, you know, let's let's let's make this happen. Let's let's do this, let's let's work around, you know, this. And I I think not only did they realize like the importance of it, but I think they also knew it's really important to have a goal, like to have a tangible this is what I want to do when I'm done with cancer. And I think it's important for for for us all to have that, whether it's a a weekend trip, you know, to uh a lake or you know, how a nice a nice dinner out, like whatever it whatever it is, something that you really wanted to do, take ballroom dance lessons, whatever it is, you know, have have a goal. Absolutely. I think it's so important because it it was a way to focus me, you know, listening to those whip music. Um, you know, ha having having that uh uh goal in mind the whole time. And then when I we did go, it was just so much more amazing. I mean, we were in the nosebleeds at one uh you know, Wembley in in London, uh, but it didn't matter. Like it was absolutely a wonderful experience. And um, you know, I was just it just it it helped just reinforce all the hard work, you know. I mean, right things were really difficult. When I felt really sick in chemo, I was like, I just have to wake up. Well, I just have to be well, I'm just gonna get well. Like, you know, it was like a mantra of yes, and I I think it's so powerful and can be so powerful.
SPEAKER_00Right, right. And you didn't just survive, I mean, you celebrated, and that was what was so cool. And yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter what it is. I mean, it could just be something that you really are looking forward to. Make something that you're looking forward to.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, because we need that. I mean, we we need to look forward to something, yeah. To keep us moving.
SPEAKER_00I have to talk about boobs.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So, I mean, you did kind of touch on this, but you decided on a double mastectomy, even though the cancer was in one breast. You didn't trust the other one to behave.
SPEAKER_02Did not. So it's always much troublemaker.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I mean, of course, in care fashion. I mean, and and I laughed, and you talk about your relationship with your breasts before cancer and how they showed up late. They didn't grow like you expected, they stayed cone shaped, and you thought you thought that you had uh you had come to a truce with them, like, okay, girls, you know, we got this, we're doing this together, and then they pull this on you. You kind of touched on that a little bit earlier, but the part I want to ask you about this was okay, this is the more serious part because this was the scars and how hard it was to look at them. And then that quote, never be ashamed of a scar. It simply means that you were stronger than whatever tried to hurt you. I mean, that was so powerful. Can you talk about that time in your life?
Choice, Chemo, And Regaining Control
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I mean, uh the scars are real. Um, and when I first got the the double massectomy, they put in um it's they're basically like placeholders kind of for um for the reconstruction that was going to happen, uh, because I had implants put in. Uh but but initially it's just all it's they're gone and it's just like Frankenstein Frankenstein scars. Like there's uh it's flat, there's scarring, it's you know uh it was very hard to look at. It was really, really hard to look at. A nurse even said, like, you don't have to. You don't you don't have to look at like you don't you don't have to look at it. Um my uh my husband, you know, he's a saint, helped me like dress the wounds and clean the wounds and you know and he was just like it's temporary. Like don't don't worry about it. This is just like now, it's it's not forever. It'll look different when you know uh things happen. But uh it took me a while to to to celebrate the scars, you know, because even after after the reconstruction surgery, you know, there were still scars, there's still a port scar. Um, you know, it took me it took me a while to sort of feel that they're empowering and they're not um things that show that I'm like less than, you know, that that I'm not that that it's an imperfection. Instead of seeing it as an imperfection, I I do see it as battle armor.
SPEAKER_00I mean it it's but it's part of your journey.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00I want to talk about chemo um as you call it spin the wheel of misfortune because you really never knew like what side effects and things were gonna come with it, but you're still honest about this part of your journey, even though the surgeons got all the cancer and it had not spread. You still had to do the traditional chemo. And your team called it insurance policy, and then came the course of voices, you know, some people telling you to do it, some telling you not to do it, some sharing their horror stories. But there was one thing that you said that I absolutely loved. You wrote you can start chemo and quit if you want. Or if you I mean, just hearing that you had options, I think helped you consent to it. It shifted something. It gave you back a sense of control.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, absolutely. And I think um, you know, every cancer journey is different. And some doctors are like, you absolutely have to have this or you'll die. Uh and mine were not that definitive. You know, they were, they were like, You really should do this because if the cancer comes back it'll kill you. Uh and this is the way to make sure the cancer doesn't come back. So um you know, I I think it is important to realize regardless of the treatment that you're having, uh you're still in control. So you can always quit. You can always quit. And I think um, you know, you can always decide I'm done with treatment, I'm just gonna let whatever life I have left, this is how I want to live it. That is a perfectly reasonable choice. I mean, this is your body, you know, your life, your decision. Um, and I think but I also think giving if we feel like we don't have to compl you know, complete it, we don't have to do every little thing. It gives us the the uh kind of permission to do it, you know, oddly. Like I don't know if it's reverse psychology or if it's just um well if it gets really bad, I can quit. But then you stick with it, you know. It's almost like, but I don't want to quit. I'm gonna I'm gonna see it through, but but I could quit. I could quit if I want it, you know, just to have that advantage.
SPEAKER_00Just having that there, just having choice, because cancer has taken so much choice away. Yeah so just being able to have that little bit of choice, and actually really a lot of choice, and however you want to move forward, I think is so empowering. For sure.
SPEAKER_02No, absolutely. And I think it's it's important to realize you're on the driver's seat. I mean, it feels like you're not, but you know, you may have um, you know, kind of crappy choices, but there's still choices that you know you can make. So that's important always to remind yourself of that. Like every every opportunity you can have.
SPEAKER_00Well, it's reclaiming back your life. And you've had you even had the small things taken away from you, like your coffee, you know. I mean, really that might seem small, but it's huge. What it what does it do to you, the spirit, when even the small joys are stripped from you?
Small Joys And Everyday Losses
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it's so hard. So during chemo, um, I had quite it just turned my digestive system upside down as it at least. Um, and I had to cut out all kinds of foods. I had to cut out milk and dairy and um all kinds of fatty foods. So no hamburgers, no french fries, no chicken nuggets, not no no pizza, no good stuff. No, no, like and and foods that with high acid content, like marinara sauce and coffee. And coffee was look, I I um I, you know, I have a coffee cup in my hand within like 10 minutes of waking up. This is this is you know, I'm I'm a coffee drinker, I drink it every morning, I love all of the variations. Give me, you know, a latte, give me black coffee, give me, you know, rabbitino, whatever it is, I love it. And to have to give it up was so hard because it did feel like I was just being kicked when I was down, like I'm already feeling crappy. And then have to give up coffee? Like what? At that point, it becomes a a challenge just to find things that are that are joyful, you know. So I had to look for things I could eat, like uh apricot jam on an English muffin. I could have that, it was delicious, you know. I could have some very specialized herbal teas that were pretty good. I mean, they weren't coffee, but they were they're pretty tasty, you know. Um flavored honeys to put in them. Like uh, so it's it becomes something where you really have to look harder for joys because they're still there. And then the one choys are there, you have to really, you know, uh hang on to. And uh and garring.
SPEAKER_00Garring. Yes. I mean, that's so important. I mean, I I do want to talk about uh something else that I mean this was hysterical, okay? As you um joked about your husband browsing a catalog of boobs, like you are shopping for a new pair of shoes, and you picture this legally blonde style surgeon with a pink stethoscope offering you these gravity-defying miracle boobs so you never have to wear a bra again. I mean, you talk about now this I read to a couple different people about the Selene boobs that can slosh when you run.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, like what the heck? I know, I know. It's so funny because um my husband and I joke about this all the time. We we thought that was the fun doctor visit, like the fun one, but there is no fun doctor visit in in cancer. Um and like, you know, the he he sort of thought there'd be just a wall of boobs that he could be like, oh, maybe these. What about these ones? Yeah, how about these? You know?
SPEAKER_00Um and like he could feel them to, you know, yeah, see if he liked them.
Reconstruction Realities And Scars
SPEAKER_02There there are a lot of um complications and it's serious surgery and it's serious business, and they're they're not natural, so they based wash or um silicone ones, you have to get an MRI every so often and make sure they're not leaking. Like it is it is just not a fun, not a fun time. A fun journey. There's there's really nothing fun about it, but um Yeah. But at the same time, like, you know, I'm glad I did get the reconstruction, you know. I'm I'm glad uh you know, I don't have to answer questions, you know. I I I think it's whatever people um are comfortable with whatever they want, right? Yeah, yeah. I mean, if you want to go without, go without. You want to wear just a prosthetic bra, do that. Like there are I think it's about getting to your heck yes, you know, uh, about what you want to do, about what you feel wrong.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I loved PJ's. I mean, he PJ was so amazing with you. He is an amazing man, and um he basically held your hand through this whole entire thing and he went to your appointments, and it didn't matter to him what boobs you chose. I mean, he just wanted you to live.
SPEAKER_02Yes. Yes, he did. I he's just I've been so lucky to have such an amazing partner. I mean, he was there at every appointment. Um, you know, it's it's he he he's just a fantastic partner, you know. Oh, wait, and I I think what I love most about him is that he's just um not afraid of the you know emotional stuff and the you know he's he's very honest and open and um and I think some men in particular have a hard time ex expressing their feelings and then uh you know instead of dealing with the fear, there's just like an avoidance. Like I just stay away from it, maybe it's fine, like uh or I don't want to say the wrong thing, you know. Right. But uh he was just right there in it with me because I I really think, you know, I mean there's a reason there are two seats on the roller coaster, you know. I mean, if you're going down, if you're going down a world then, you know, you want to like walk to the pr the person there.
SPEAKER_01Is it as scary as I think? Yes it is.
SPEAKER_00I never really thought about that before, but I really like that. I mean, you need you need just like in an airplane, you know, you don't want to be sitting by yourself on an airplane, even if the person next to you is a stranger, at least you're going through it together.
SPEAKER_02Exactly, exactly. But that turbulent hit you want, you want somebody to make eye contact with it.
SPEAKER_00Grab grab hands with yes, exactly. Um, I do want to talk about something else really quick, is you talk very frankly about the cost of cancer. I mean, it is very expensive, and people do deserve to live. And I hate the fact that you mentioned that medical bills are the number one reason for bankruptcy in this country, and for medical bank, there's medical bankruptcy. And you know, the person people have to choose between rent and chemo and that kind of thing. And and that's just not okay. And you know, what I loved about your book is that you have resources, and I want people, I mean, your book is a guide through all of it, but it also has resources in there for people like this. Because, you know, when you're going through this, your brain is in a fog and you're not thinking, but they can open your book and they can just say, you know what? I'm gonna call these people, I'm gonna go to this website and I'm gonna try to see if I can get the help that I because you you also touch on something else that so many people lose their jobs during this time. I mean, 83% said breast cancer affected their careers. I mean, how I mean, so now you've lost coffee and now you've lost your job too. I mean, I can't even imagine. I mean, because we are so much of what we do, what our job is. And now you don't even have that.
SPEAKER_02I know. Uh it was during chemotherapy that actually, because I'm I'm a contract worker, you know, I'm a romance novelist, but I'm basically like a 1099. I'm a I'm a contract worker that signs contracts to write books, uh, but I'm not a full-time employee with benefits. So um, and that's been most of my career as a freelance writer. So um, you know, during chemo, um, you know, they let me know they they weren't uh they were going in a different direction. Um, they didn't I didn't want to renew my contract, which has happened multiple times. It's not unusual. I've worked for, you know, four of the big five publishing companies and two have been twice, you know. So it's like, you know, I pitch stories and ideas and I go from one publisher to another, and that's just often how it happens. But um, I was let go. So I didn't have a renewal of my contract. So basically I was laid off and um was going through cancer, was uh it it's such a whammy, but it happens to so many people because despite having some protections uh for for health and disability, not all of jobs are protected, not all jobs have protection. Um, not all people have resources to uh, you know, or the sick days or or sick leave uh, you know, that they can take. And it becomes you're like you're saying, it becomes a situation where you have to choose between chemo and work, you know, um rent, or um in some cases people are like, well, I'm gonna put off treatment until I get a new job with the benefits. And frankly, I I knew someone um who did that and her cancer went from stage two to stage four uh during that time she was waiting, and now uh she'll have to have chemotherapy for the rest of her life and her life will be shortened. So um I think when we try to make judgments about finances, unfortunately, like the safe financial play is not necessarily the health one, healthy one, you know. There are resources out there, there are grants you can get from nonprofits, there are ways to reduce your medical bills by negotiating with the hospital. There are, you know, a lot of programs out there. So I would encourage everybody, you know, going through this just to, you know, do the research. You know, open my book. Like um, you know, there are there are there are grants you can get, there are there's there's help out there from from people, well-meaning people that want to help you. So um you're not alone. And and there are things that that you can proactively do um to help you get through this financial time, which is difficult.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and you just kind of touched on something because you touched on a decision that your friend made. Yeah. And you really uh talk about the difference between responsibility and blame.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And I think that those are two completely different things.
Partnership, Support, And Showing Up
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I think we we second guess ourselves a lot. And I know I've been very hard on myself, and I think, you know, I was I was late getting the routine mammogram that caught the cancer, you know. And so I I spent a lot of time spinning my wheels. You know, if I'd gotten it earlier, would it have made a difference? With, you know, oh no, I I put it off three months and now look, you know. Um, but blame isn't really helpful, you know. Blame is um blame sort of keeps us in a place of shame, keeps us from moving forward. Uh blame doesn't help. Pers responsibility is is is more like, you know, well, I didn't get that three months ago, so now I'm going to be more on top of my appointments moving forward. You know, how do I ask that second question to my doctor to see if I can get in sooner? You know, my I I know this bothers me. You know, and then there's no shame. You know, there's just what can I do?
SPEAKER_00Right, remove right, remove the shame.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, remove the shame. There there is no shame in cancer. Nobody asks for cancer, like we talked about. Um nobody's dream board is cancer. So um, you know, I would say lay the leave the shame aside at just what can you do next? What's the next right thing to do, you know, for yourself and your treatment?
SPEAKER_00I love that your counselor said, you know, I mean, you just keep showing up. And uh strong people get stronger, not because they never fall apart, but because they keep getting back up. And so can you tell us about a time where you were that bull in the china shop, like you talked about, but it turned out to be one of your strongest moments.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it it was really around the time of deciding I I needed a chemo, uh, because I really didn't want it. I was really looking for ways to get out of it, and uh and uh my counselor was wonderful because she she she brought up you could do it, but you don't want to. You know, like you're like a toddler, like I don't want to, you know, and I'm like, Yeah, yeah. So just the switching of the the framing of uh because I think we all say I can't do this. I can't. It's impossible, I can't. Um and I think just reframing it to I can but I don't want to. Okay. You know, it helps helps you get to that place of, oh I I can, I just don't want to. I just don't want this, I don't want any of this. I hate it all, I don't want it, you know, is different than I can't. Because I can't is you know um it kind of keeps you keeps you stuck, you know. But I I think we can. And and sometimes it's throwing a bit, I don't want I'm gonna throw a tantrum, but I don't think it I don't want to. And then after you throw the tantrum and after you're calm, you can pick yourself up and and like I did go get chemotherapy.
SPEAKER_00Well, you know, I mean sometimes you just have to do that. You just have to. You do um touch on a really difficult topic, and that's death. And you know, nobody wants to talk about that, but you you do go there and you talk about how most people make uh birth plans, but they don't make death plans. And you bring up how much energy we spend trying to look young and how little time we spend on really thinking about the end. Uh, you say something that is really true that death does not end a relationship. The love remains and the relationship just changes form. And I often think, because you know, we went, I adopted my three, uh, I've got two olders and three littles now. And um, I was like, well, I gotta get a will. I gotta get all the things. I have to get the house, you know, protected. So if I go that they still have a house. I mean, I honestly think that it's really a gift to the people who are left. Yeah. If we do that. So what would you say to someone who is scared about doing this and not really even thinking about planning?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, you know, I think um it's important to remember that that planning uh a will and thinking about death doesn't bring it here any sooner.
SPEAKER_00It doesn't.
SPEAKER_02Uh it it just because you're thinking about it doesn't mean it shows up at your doorstep, you know. I mean, that's not how this works.
SPEAKER_00So I think we feel that way though, sometimes. Like we invited it in because we talked about it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. And and that's that isn't how it works. And I I think planning is so important. Uh it helps the people that you leave behind. I think it's also important uh to think about it in a way uh that makes it less scary. Again, you're you're you're once you plan things and what you're like, this is how I want um this is how I want things to go. This is this is the care I want at the end of my life. This is, you know, it's it's less scary than just you know, leaving it to chance. And uh and death is not defeat. Death death is inevitable. It's it comes for us all. So even if you're in the middle of a cancer battle, um you know, I I wouldn't think of death as failing or losing, you know. Um I just think we get what time we get. And none of us gets to decide that way.
SPEAKER_01That's right.
SPEAKER_02Um we only get to decide how we live while we're here. So um that's where we should put our focus. But yeah, I mean, it doesn't bring death to your doorstep at any. It just helps the people that you leave behind.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I I am so glad that we did what we did because when my mom passed away, she didn't have really anything in place. There was a lot that we had to take care of, and there is no way that I'm going to do that to these my three littles. I mean, we're older, I don't want them to have this big mess. I wanted everything in place for them. And I just think that that's just it really is thinking about them. It isn't even really thinking about us, it's thinking of them.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. And I I think it's important to know that um, you know, yeah, it's it's really it's a gift to them. It's a gift to the people that you love the most, that you, you know, that are here.
SPEAKER_00And we don't ever want to talk, you know, like my mom would say, well, you know, we we do have to talk about some things if anything did happen to her. And I didn't want to face it. It was something I didn't want to talk about either.
Responsibility Without Blame
SPEAKER_02Yeah, of course. I I think that's only human, you know. She showers sounds a little who wants to really, you know, talk about that. I know I don't.
SPEAKER_00Exactly. Well, you do talk about life after cancer, and and it was strange because everyone thinks that you should just be walking on sunshine and you should be really happy, but you describe feeling lost. And okay, now you know the adrenaline of the battle is gone, the appointment slowed down, and you're left with scars and memories that you really don't want, and a different kind of fear, I would think. And you use the term arrival fallacy. Yeah, could you talk about could you talk about that?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. Um, it's a great question. Um, you know, uh, we talked about the depression uh before, which a lot of people experience. And um my doctors uh told me that often that depression happens after cancer goes into verbose, which is counterintuitive. Um, but there is something called the arrival fallacy, and that's um that's where we it doesn't necessarily have to be cancer. It can be any like goal that we're trying to achieve, whether that's beating cancer or getting a promotion, we're winning the lottery, even um, you know, whatever it is, you know, we we think about it a lot, we plan toward it a lot, we work toward that goal, and we think sort of as we're working toward it, as we're as we're working on it, we think not necessarily logical. But like subconsciously, like once I get to this goal, it fixes all my problems. You know, it fixes my money problems, it fixes my you know emotional problems, I'll be happy, I'll be healthy, I'll be content. Uh and then we inevitably uh whatever the goal we achieve happens, but then we still have the same problems. We still maybe, you know, we're we're fighting with our in-laws, or we're we're disagreeing with our response, or the kids didn't clean up their room, we we're passed over for promotion at work, like all of the all of the challenges that involve working on this whole time, uh still the goal was supposed to fix everything. And then it didn't. And then especially when it's something like cancer, you know, you're like, oh, but I should be grateful, but I don't feel free to not. And then it's just a whole like horrible cycle. Um and I think we should just show we just show ourselves some race at this time, like and and to understand that not every goal fixes every problem, and that that's okay. Like it's okay to say, you know, it didn't fix all the problems. It fixed this one big problem, and I'm very grateful for that. And I still have these other problems, and that kind of stakes.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think that oftentimes we feel things after it's over.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Well, you're in the moment, the heat of it.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_00Right, right. And even though if it's 16 months or 20 months or whatever, however long it takes for you to get to the other side, you just went through something really horrific and you need some time. Yeah, exactly. I like how um you some people they did things with that. Like, you know, they could start a charity or support groups, go to support groups or knit chemo caps, uh, get involved, but continue support, get continued therapy, get continued self-care. And I thought that that was all really important advice because you think, okay, I'm good now, you know, I'm healthy. And I think that, you know, you let a lot of those things go and you don't understand why you don't feel okay still.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, no, you're so right. I mean, that's so important. That community, too, is so important to keep going after, you know, for your mental health for sure.
SPEAKER_00Toward the end of your book, uh, there is no good book for this, but I wrote one anyway. You talk about what really matters now. You say you have less tolerance for nonsense. You care more about kindness, self-care, boundaries, empathy, and you want to live in a way that honors what you went through. If you had to name a few things that feel crystal clear to you after all of this, what would they be?
Death Plans, Legacy, And Love
SPEAKER_02Yeah. You know, um living with intention, you know. I I think we go on autopilot a lot.
SPEAKER_01That's good.
SPEAKER_02You know, uh, we go on autopilot a lot. And I think uh my um experience just really taught me that we have limited time. So the autopilot's wasted time. So if you're just like going through the motions but not doing the things you enjoy, not not not um focusing on your passions, like what you really want to do with your life, how you really want to make your mark, uh then it's kind of a waste of time. And uh I think it's also a waste of time to be, you know, be cruel and uh selfish and shallow too. Like what what what you know if you're if you're thinking about how do I want to be remembered, how do I want to um keep my mark, then then do those things, you know. And I think the the less time we can spend on autopilot, the better off we're all gonna be.
SPEAKER_00You you end with this truth that I I want to echo. You say you are a survivor and you are no victim. And I love that you put your experience on these pages because I would think, you know, it would be hard to write it. It would be hard to talk about it and talk about, but it would be so healing in a different way. It would be, it's amazing that you chose to take your experience and do this for other people. I think it's beautiful. For someone, yeah, for someone listening who doesn't feel like a survivor yet, who maybe is still in the chemo chair, still waiting on scans, what would you want to say directly to them?
SPEAKER_02I would say that, you know, uh I would say what the Navy SEALs tell themselves, which is that um when you're when you want to quit, when you're at your weakest, when you think you're all spats, uh you're only 40% there. Like you've got reserves in the tank that you don't even know about yet. Okay. So uh if if they you know if they can keep going, like we can too. So um, you know, you've got you've got more uh strength in you than you know. Uh you're much stronger than you know. Uh and just just keep keep going. There's no way but through. You just keep on moving. No one wants to stop there. Just keep on moving.
SPEAKER_00Kara, thank you so much for your honesty, your humor, your willingness to sit in the hard and still look for the light. Thank you for writing the book that so many people need and for talking about it like this today. And your humor. I mean, it really touched me. And I honestly don't think, I mean, I know that I have never read an entire cancer book before. And it kept me turning that page. So to everyone listening, whether you are in treatment, in remission, caregiving, grieving, or just learning how to face your own fears, I hope you heard something today that made you feel less alone. You are not a burden, you are not your diagnosis, you are not your scars or your hair or your bank account or on or anything on your worst day. You are a whole person. You are worth the fight. And like the what like we say here all the time, even here, even now, there is still something to be thankful for, even if it is small and quiet and hiding in the corner of a hard day. We will put Kara's book, there is no good book for this, but I wrote one anyway: The Irreverent Guide to Crushing Breast Cancer. Until next time, take care of your body, take care of you, talk back to fear, let people help you and cling to the joys that remain. We really care about you here at Real Talk with Tina and Anna. Remember that there is always purpose in the pain and there is hope in the journey. And we will see you next time. Thank you so much, Cara, for being here.
SPEAKER_02Thank you so much for having me. It's been a pleasure.
