A conversation with Aaron Sauerland, script supervisor of the Oscar nominated film "Marcel the Shell with Shoes On." Listen to Aaron discuss his on set experiences and opinions on disability representation in the industry as well as audio description.
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A conversation with Aaron Sauerland, script supervisor of the Oscar nominated film "Marcel the Shell with Shoes On." Listen to Aaron discuss his on set experiences and opinions on disability representation in the industry as well as audio description.
Questions? Email us at darkroomfilmcast@gmail.com
Search for Audio Description availability for any title on the American Council for the Blind's Website!
Find transcripts of our episodes on our hosting site, Buzzsprout!
Subscribe to our YouTube Channel!
Support us on Patreon!
Follow us on Instagram!
Find us on Facebook!
Lee Pugsley
Hey there, dark room podcast listeners. Thank you so much for joining us today for another exciting episode. Before we begin, we wanted to take a moment to acknowledge that the sound quality for this episode is not the most ideal. And we apologize about that. We were having some technical issues which will be resolved for all future episodes. However, we found this conversation with our special guests so enlightening that we wanted to put it out there for you guys. Hopefully you enjoy.
Happy post Oscar season everyone. Welcome back to the dark room where two blind cinephiles illuminate the sighted, I'm your host Lee Pugsley.
Alex Howard
I'm Alex Howard.
Lee Pugsley
And we are two legally blind guys who want to share our love of film. This is a podcast for film lovers of all abilities. And Alex, we have something very exciting today.
Alex Howard
Yeah, we have our friend Aaron Sauerland, here.
Aaron Sauerland
Hey, hey. Hi. Thanks for having me, guys.
Lee Pugsley
Yeah, thanks for being a part of our podcast is is Are you our first special guest?
Aaron Sauerland
Oh, wow, man, the honor.
Alex Howard
Yeah. And I mean, I'm hoping this isn't the biggest honor that you've had this year because I know you were nominated for an Oscar you are script supervisor on Marcel the Shell the shoes on which is nominated for Best Animated Feature. Yeah.
Aaron Sauerland
Which is incredible. It's totally insane to be part of that.
Alex Howard
Yeah. Congratulation.
Lee Pugsley
Yeah. Congratulations on your Oscar nomination. How does it feel to be part of an Oscar nominated animated film?
It's very surreal. It's, it's, it's crazy. Because you don't really know you're working on something that is going to be an Oscar film. And oftentimes, when you do that, it's not being the case.
Alex Howard
I was gonna ask, like, if you knew when you guys were making it.
Aaron Sauerland
I mean, I, I always tell people that I knew, like, from the minute I was sent the animatic that the movie was going to be good. I knew it was going to be like, the best movie that I at the time had had worked on. And I still think that that's true. Because it just has so much Harleen when I was sent the animatic I like cried watching it. So I knew that like just like tearing up and getting emotional over like drawings sent like set to voiceover. I knew that like it was going to be something special. So I just hoped that it was going to resonate with everybody. And apparently it did. And that's all been and his team's worked really, really, really great. Yeah, I really enjoyed it. I watched it. I watched it a few weeks ago. And I just thought it had so much heart and humanity and deeper themes, then, you know, you might expect from an animated film of this nature, but I thought it was such a pleasantly surprising and beautifully moving story. Yeah, I think I think a lot of that comes down to Dean and Jenny, the director, and then obviously, Jenny Slate they wrote, and that story came from such a real human experience in their lives. And I think that translates and it's stuff that everyone can relate to, or at some time in their life will relate to. Because at the end of the day, you know, it is a story of finding your place and, you know, tackles things like grief. And I think it's kind of these universal life experiences. This is an art form that's only been around for a little over 100 years, like since its inception. And that is insane to think that like we're in the infancy of this art form. And here's a film that will forever be addressed and referred to in these kinds of hallowed halls.
Alex Howard
Oh, yeah. And it's kind of like I mean, you always talk about like, oh, some random movie like oh, this was nominated back in 2005. What was nominated with it you know, so it's people are always going to be discovering Michelle Michelle now because you know, it is in the history books.
Lee Pugsley
Yeah, you're part of the legacy which is amazing.
Aaron Sauerland
Yeah, it totally nuts Fluke it feels like but you know, that's how it always is.
Alex Howard
Are you seeing like a little bump on your resume like when people say Marsala shell are they like oh shit, there's a nominee for an Oscar. This guy must be good.
Aaron Sauerland
Well, it's funny you say that because the last couple of times that I've been talking with people for like jobs or so on when I've sent my resume they brought up like, Oh, we're so the show. Congrats, sir. I feel like I don't know if it's necessarily getting me more work. But at least it's something where people when they see the resume or they check your IMDB they're like, oh, like I know this. This has been talked about congrats. I'm sure there's an element of like, it's like a kind of a badge of you know what you're doing but but yeah, whether or not I'm actually like getting more work. It's hard to say because our interest He's all freelance. I don't know what's going on behind the scenes. Phone calls.
Alex Howard
That's That's very true. But yeah, why don't you tell us what a script supervisor does? But then also like, Marcel was made in a very unconventional way. Yeah. So I'm sure we'd love to hear about that.
Aaron Sauerland
Cool. So a script supervisor is kind of your liaison between production and post production. Basically, we're on set to be there for the editorial team, the best way to explain it is our job is to ensure that the film cuts together and that everything we're getting on set is needed or required for that edit. And so we're there in pre production, breaking down the script, which is like going through every scene and marking, like, what props are in the scene, what act like what characters are in the scene, what story day it is, and it's day or night, you notice it day one, day two, day three, or whatever. And then inside of that, you know, it's tracking all of that continuity from scene to scene. So that way, when production starts, your script supervisors usually like your directors like right hand, and you're there to basically make sure you're getting everything shot, making sure that everything's matching, because I'm sure most people know this, but movies are shot out of order. And so continuity is paramount. Because otherwise you're gonna have someone walk out of their house with like a backpack, and then like, Get into the car, and now they don't have a backpack, which is like, you know, Coyote can be considered minor in regards to that. But I think more importantly, our job is like we're they're taking notes of everything we're shooting. And we're the ones who create the slates which organizes everything for them. And yeah, we're basically like I said, we're there for the for the editorial team, organizing everything as we shoot,
Lee Pugsley
touching on the continuity. Part of it, which is so important, I'm sure that is that's essential, especially if you have to do like reshoot like a few months later or something like that.
Aaron Sauerland
Yeah, absolutely. reshoots. Yeah, rehab man reshoots, pickups. A lot of times people don't know this, but I know a lot of like, bigger shows. The inserts, which are just like close ups of like, if characters on their phone or something, a lot of times, that's not the actor's hands, that's like picked up sometimes, like weeks later as a separate unit. And so having good notes and good reference is ideal for that expect, depending on the type of production.
Alex Howard
So then for you, if you go work on something, you keep your notebook for months, you know, for the reshoots, and then you kind of have to, really, you have to take really good notes so that you can remember where things were for the next, you know, month later, right, exactly,
Aaron Sauerland
yeah. And that's where I was kind of saying with like, depending on the project, because depending on how much time has passed, you usually have like a rough edit. And usually you can call it like an assembly edit, which is your first pass. And that assembly edit will give you an idea as a reference point to and usually we can we can get like a watermark version of the film that we can reference while we're on set also. But yeah, I mean, the other thing is, is sometimes you bring in other scripts, supervisors, and so like, you know, if, if I move on and I'm on another project, I can't like hop off to just go do pickups a month and a half later. So like those notes need to be not only like, legible, and make sense for the editorial team, but also for whoever the hell is going to come in and, you know, pick up where you left off.
Alex Howard
Is there a common shorthand among all script supervisors that you use as a kind of tailored to how you do it yourself? Like individually?
Aaron Sauerland
It's kind of both, I think that there is a definitely standard shorthand that we use, like fr for like frame right, or FL for frame left. A lot of times like, for like, we'll say, like an actor crosses to this mark. And we'll just use like a capital X for cross. So yeah, I don't know, there's shorthand like that. Like, we use like H H for handheld. But also, though, everyone kind of finds their own flow, their own shorthand, and as long as it makes sense to the editorial team, and you've like, talked with them about their preferences, then like, you're kind of free to do it, whatever. But I wouldn't say Do whatever as far as like, all the notes, like how we do it, but just as far as your shorthand, and I mean, yeah,
Alex Howard
I know. I know, when I was in college. I associated being a script supervisor with pretty much making sure like the clocks didn't move because if you shoot you know one scene with the clock upon the wall, and then you cut back and it's two hours later, you're like, wait, you know, the clocks were the big thing. And I was in college, but I know, you know, even things like the Starbucks cup on the Game of Thrones, stuff like that, like, that's your job to catch. So, obviously, yeah, and I don't know how easily someone like Lee and I could do that kind of job, considering our eyesight, but like, I don't know, what do you think of the real blind script supervisor? Could that work out?
Aaron Sauerland
The thing is, is the continuity aspect of like, watching the frame and stuff is a huge part of our job. But it is, in my opinion, not our like, fundamental, most important part of the job. Like, to me, the most important part of the job is like ensuring that everything you have is like, everything that's on a script page is covered in a way that's going to be cut together. And so a lot of the times, like, That element is about working with a talking with the director talking with the DP, like you in your head. As you're shooting the scene, you're cutting the scene together, like okay, do we have this close up? Do we have this wide angle? Do we have this moment when we come over here, and, and so I think like, to me, that is the that's number one of the job. And then number two is like the continuity thing. And I think that's where being like, like low visibility is going to be kind of detrimental to the job. Where, but we've been having this whole push lately in our union for getting an assistant. And especially for when you get like more than when we start getting into like three, four or five, six cameras, we've been pushing for like assistants. And so technically, someone who has low vision could do like the grunt work of like note taking, and all that other stuff, and have someone else who's watching strictly continuity, like what hand the actors are picking up the glasses with and etc.
Lee Pugsley
That yeah, that totally makes sense. And it's interesting, um, just on the subject that you brought up, Alex about, like, you know, someone who's low vision, could they be a script supervisor, you know, or an assistant to one because your job, Aaron reminds me a lot of doing stage management in theater, which for those that don't know what that is stage, a stage manager in theaters, basically very similar, where they're the right hand of the director, they're in communication with all the designers, as well as the cast and crew, and they organize everything, they take blocking notations, they make sure that you know, the props backstage are set where they need to go that you know, the wardrobe changes or where they need to be the sets are moved, and all the cues are called. And as someone who is visually impaired, I actually have done stage management. And you know, called the queues and taken those blocking notations. And just like, you know, ran a show as well. Now, that being said, it's different because the continuity in theater is a little easier to identify than the continuity in the small details of a film. Because you know, you can't, there's no way that you can cheat continuity and film on occasion, you can get away with cheating continuity in theater. But you know, I think what you were saying, as long as you're a good note taker, and you have all of the you have very detailed notes so that if you have to hand off your book to someone else, they know how to interpret it. I think that's key. And but yeah, I mean, it's a really interesting idea of, you know, where a place for someone with low vision could fit into the script supervision world and you know, my that's not my world, so I don't know, but yeah, just made me think of my theater experience in that way.
Aaron Sauerland
Yeah, I do believe I do believe that someone could with low vision, like I said, as long as they had someone for tracking continuity. Just because like I said, so much of it is just understanding the Edit, like a good script supervisor, I think, is also a good editor. And so I think that that is still possible. Now, you have worked on other shows and movies besides Marcel, the shell, which she was on, but I'm curious to know, because Marcel is animated. What the difference is for you working on an animated movie like Marcel versus working on completely live action. Yeah, so Marcel is super interesting, because anyone who's seen the movie knows that it's it's kind of a mixed medium. It's live action, but then Marcel himself and Nana, Connie, our stop motion. And so it's really interesting. So for us doing Marcel the show, they, I'm sure they've talked about this as well, but they kind of made the movie three times. So the first time They did it was kind of like an audio recording kind of like what we're doing right now. When they like, recorded basically the whole movie as audio. And then they did drawings to that with like storyboards. And so you have this kind of like, it's the animatic, which is just like drawings with the voiceover of the whole movie. So that's like the first time you make them, see the whole movie done with audio only, and then drawings. And then then you have production, which is where I came in with my like with the whole team there. And for production on that, what we ended up doing is like shooting plates, which are basically just like, empty frames of like, where Marcel will be put in. And so for example of that is the opening of Marcel the Shell is a shot of like the closet and we see this tennis ball started rolling around. So the tennis ball was real. So we really did film this tennis and took a motorized tennis ball. And we really do film that like rolling around, that's not stop motion. And then, you know, we see like the ball stop, and then the tennis like ball opens up, and Marcel like pops out of it. And so like we shot like the floor where the tennis ball would roll in, and where he would pop out. But we're just shooting like, an empty shot of the floor. And so like, all the production for like 30 days was filming, like empty hallways, and empty shots of the grass, or there's a scene in the movie where they go on like a car ride. And so like, it's just shots of a dean driving and talking to, to nobody and, and so that's very, obviously very, very different than any kind of live action stuff going off of that. Part of what we would do is every time we would do a scene because we had the animatic we knew what the audio needs to be for that moment. So it was a lot of us like rolling the camera, and then like rolling the animatic playing the animatic. So that way we can do the timing of everything. Mainly, a lot of our work came into like when Marcel practically interacts with objects in the real world because we did that on set, like him like landing on his spoon to like launch, like kumquats, like that is all practical. We did that they're pulling the book when the economy's like pulling the book or tearing the page. That's done on set, we did that. And then all those characters have to be animated in afterwards, which was a whole team that I was not involved in, it was the stop motion team was brought in much longer after production. Live action production.
Alex Howard
So then for, for you, though, you had to make sure the you wrote down the measurements between the camera and where Marcel was gonna be right. So that when they went back and did it, they could literally match it to so it was not a focus, right.
Aaron Sauerland
Exactly. Yeah, like, a whole bunch of the notes on this. I mean, I'm sure it was every shot we did was like, camera height, camera lens and focal length. What like F stop or at which is like for people who don't know, it's like how much light is being allowed in the camera, like shutter speed, there's all these eight, we're taking all this technical info. So that way, you know, again, it goes back to the notes thing, like we were talking earlier. That way like months later, the stop motion team can like go in line up the camera in the exact same position but inside of the soundstage, like these little tiny stages, and shoot like Marcel in that exact same camera and roll with the same like focal measurements and etc. So they can put him in. Because if that stuff doesn't match, it's gonna get real wonky. And that's where you get like things just not compositing. Well.
Alex Howard
That's so crazy. That's so much faith to put in like, you know how game of telephone like even your closest friends will end up something different at the end. It's so much faith to put into like, not just you but like the person setting up the camera who's reading your notes, like I could so easily mess up these things. And it all seemed to work out and like I mean every shot Marcel pretty much has much Marcel limit. Yeah, so to do it like hundreds of times. And it all worked.
Aaron Sauerland
Yeah, that's the thing. I wish that I had my I wish I had the animatic because they're all every frame of the animatic is numbered. So like if I had an animatic I could tell you that like it's this many animated shots in the whole movie because it's like hundreds i the amount of work that the stop motion team did like Kiersten and all them. It's it's absolutely unreal. But they're so talented. And I was talking with the Chiado brothers who, who also helped To stop motion. If not let it I could be wrong on that. But they were a huge part of it. And I was talking with them, I think it was Steven. And he was saying that even with all the notes, there was like, the notes were insanely helpful. But even with all them, there were still shots where they had to just like winging it. Like they had to like, literally, like, oh, like overlay the image and like trying to guesstimate what it what was going on. Because you know, there's times where the camera is shot like a documentary. So like, the camera is constantly like zooming in, and wreck the shot is resizing and reef and the focus is changing, kind of like the office kind of exactly a little bit. Yeah, yeah, just like the office. And so like, there's no way to measure that. On our end, there's no way for us to be like, unless we like set a specific like resuming in from 15 millimeters to 50 to 30 to 60. Like, it's just not really feasible and on the production end. So like stuff like that they had to, they had to just trial and error, and I cannot I don't envy that at all. That's so crazy. Yeah, that's really wild. And on that note, I guess for your job as a script supervisor, would you say that Marcel? was a more challenging film to work on than other work you've done? Or was it just different? And has its own set of challenges in different ways? Yeah, I would say it's the second one, I would say it's, it's not necessarily the most challenging because at the end of the day, we're shooting just, like, days and days of weights. But I would say it has its own challenges. Because of that, you know, like, we're not working with anything happening and seeing it, it's all in your head. It's like, okay, I'm looking at this frame. And like, he's moving over here, and he's jumping up there. And, you know, I think it puts a lot more focus on Dean, the director, and then like, having the vision. And on my end, it's more of just like, you know, like, do like logging and keeping everything organized in that regard. But yeah, I wouldn't say it's necessarily the hardest one, just because I think a lot of times, script supervisors jobs get really difficult when it comes to many actors in a scene together, doing a lot of busy work. That's kind of a script supervisor nightmare. Oh, and then add in like seven cameras, that there you go. That's like the script supervisor nightmare right there. So yeah, not harder, per se, but its own set of challenges. And just when we're collaborative, I'm really glad that you had such a great team to work with, I think that makes a huge difference in, you know, being able to enjoy a project that you work on. But yeah, just kind of like zooming out the lens a little bit. In general, what would you say? Are the things you enjoy the most about script supervision? And what do you find? What are some of the challenges that you find with it? Yeah, I think I think what I love most about script supervising is that collaborative element. The position is great, because you're working with all the department heads. So you're working, like you're right next to the director. And it's not that you're just sitting there next to them, like you are working with them. And when you have a good rapport with a good director, and they'll turn to you and like, lean on you for like, you know, like, how did we get this or you open up a dialogue with them where like, you're able to kind of, you know, it's like your creative influence, in a sense, because since you're working the edit out in your head, you're able to turn to the director and be like, hey, like, did we want to like, come over here and get this moment from from here because of this, this, this or that in the edit, you know, or if we like, got this shot, it can play out the tension more. And so like, you're really assisting them in that regard. And then again, you're working with like the DP to making sure that everything's like lining up the way that the DP wants it. You're working with production designer, and like art department, and all these department heads. So like, what I love about the position is that you are in the center of the collaboration, you're in like the middle of the storm. And I personally love that element to the job. And I can see how some people would not be into that. Because it's a lot of stress at the same time. But yeah, I don't know. I think the stress is a sign that you care and that you're into what you're doing. And so that's what I love about the job, personally.
Alex Howard
Do you want to be a script supervisor forever Do you have Bigger aspiration.
Aaron Sauerland
I love script supervising, but my end goal has always been writing and directing. And so again, going off that whole thing of like working with department heads, obviously, like, being in the middle of it all, you get, like kind of the best masterclass you can ever have, because you're always learning new tips and tricks. And I mean, you're seeing all the decisions get made right in front of you. And if not, you're a part of it even so. To me, it helps me I feel like, in the last 10 years that I've been doing this, I have grown so much as a writer and director, even though I haven't been quote, unquote, like writing and directing on any of these TV shows, or films or commercials. But I just like seeing all the decisions get made. And I'm a part of them as well. And it's just a huge growing and like lessons like going to school, but you're getting paid for it.
Alex Howard
What were some of your other favorite projects you've worked on? Like I know, I saw one br which is on and off Netflix all the time. I think it I must have watched it with audio description, because I think I was using it when I came out. I think in 2020 Right?
Aaron Sauerland
Yeah, maybe? Yeah, it was during COVID. Yeah, so
Alex Howard
I one br is a really underrated horror movie if you guys haven't seen that one. But what are some of your other favorite projects that you've worked on?
Aaron Sauerland
I think a lot of my favorite projects, honestly, are the ones that are like newer or weirder experiences for me or just something like new in my career. And one VR was great. That's another one that was done like, it's low budget. And it's like, the lower the budget, the more like tight tight knit, the whole crew is. But anyway, not to derail. So I think that my favorite projects I've worked on are things that are new or challenging to me. And so obviously Marcel the show because it was just a whole other type of project. And then like Angeline, the Hulu show, I like I was doing a couple of days on that. And that was really fun. I know it's not who's Peacock, sorry, Angelina and peacock. And we shot that on like, basically the volume. And for people who don't know what the volume is, it's like, it's like green screen, but it's happening live. Like the images are being projected in real time. The image behind them and the camera is being tracked through a bunch of sensors on the ceiling. So that way, like as you move the camera around, or just anything, the background will adjust to match wherever the camera is.
Alex Howard
They shoot things like the Mandalorian most of the Star Wars stuff they shoot there, right?
Aaron Sauerland
Yeah, yeah. Mandalorian is one of the biggest ones that uses the volume. The Batman use the volume quite a lot, mainly for whenever Batman and Catwoman would meet up on that, like, construction building, that building was a game I kind of have built, that's all in there in the benefits of using the volume is that like you get real time reflections on all of the characters like suits or eyes are for us on Angeline we are using it for for driving sequences. And so like you're getting the real time like reflections on the windows and stuff as in like the lighting changing as like they're driving around stuff that is by doing it this way. It's organic, rather than like being in a green screen studio having someone with like a bunch of flags just like run a flag past a light every once in a while to be like maybe that's a tree going by, you know. But yeah, when VR or so did a really fun show. I guess I can talk about it. I can talk about whatever is time dB. So it's not like I'm dropping some of these bombs. I just wanna say anything what it's about. Okay, so I worked on this really fun project with Nathan fielder and Benny safty. And it's a TV show that's coming out and it stars Nathan and Emma Stone. And it's very heavily improv as Nathan does. But that's another really fun project that was just like, again, like it's all these favorite projects are things that are new to me and heavy to do. And so anyway, those are some of my favorites.
Lee Pugsley
Nice. I love if infielder I think he's so great.
Aaron Sauerland
Nathan is hilarious, and also very specific. Nathan knows exactly what he wants, and he will get it. And that's a sign I think of someone who's a good director. So
Lee Pugsley
definitely. And within your experiences on different projects you've worked on, Alex and I were curious to know if you've worked with anyone And with a disability, whether on the crew or as part of the cast, and if so what was that experience? Like?
Aaron Sauerland
So really good question.
Alex Howard
And if you haven't, that's okay. Because it just means that work needs to be done in the industry.
Aaron Sauerland
Yeah. No, I mean, that's exactly I think what I was going to where I was gonna say is, like, I'll say this, like, to my knowledge, I have not worked with anyone. With, I would say, I mean, with a visible disability. And that doesn't mean that I haven't worked with anyone, but it's just to my knowledge. Um, and so yeah, which is shocking, honestly, based on how many projects I've done.
Alex Howard
10 years, right. Yeah.
Aaron Sauerland
Yeah, just about. So that's kind of crazy. Now, I can't imagine how many I mean, I've worked with so many people. I mean, crews range from being 30 people on set to being like, 200 people on set? So yeah, I don't know, it's, it's a it's an interesting point, you know, you bring up a thing of represent representation. For Indian, that department, and
Alex Howard
that's kind of crazy. Warner Brothers has this program called access to action that I applied for and got in and I haven't taken advantage of yet where they, they bring in, they have a whole list of people who either have disabilities or have a, you know, minority group, and shows will contact them and look for ask for, oh, I want, you know, a gaffer or something, and they'll find someone, and it's usually just pa positions. But there's a whole program for that. I think that's their web, though, but I'm sure other studios have that too. But yeah, it's it's kind of surprising, like, even, you know, someone in a wheelchair, but then you have to make sure that the set is wheelchair accessible, which it should be, but you know, like, I mean, people with disabilities can do all different kinds of jobs. So yeah, I mean, hopefully that becomes more prevalent in the industry, especially with like, one in four people having a disability, whether it's visible or invisible, that's a quarter of the populations, stories that aren't really being told, and what even if they're not the writer of the project, I feel like they're participating in the making of the project will have some kind of impact on the finished product.
Aaron Sauerland
Yeah. And I think that ties in also with, like, you know, I think it's perpetuated by like this stigma, I almost wonder if there's a thought to people can't work in the industry, you know, like, it's almost like this, it's like a negative stigma that's being perpetuated,
Lee Pugsley
you never think that you bring up a really good point, because within my experience, once again, because I work more in theater than film, but even when both I guess Theater and Film experiences that I've had, people that I've worked with have never worked with anyone that has a known or visible disability, as you would say. And so they just assume that people that have any type of disability, they're just not seeking out work in the entertainment industry. Because those people aren't, you know, aren't applying for those jobs, or they haven't got those jobs, or they've just never had that experience. So they just assumed that that's not something that interests people like me and Alex, and you know, on one hand, it's like, there's a learning curve, where I'm like, Okay, well, let's add, let's help educate people that there are people out there with disabilities that would love to be a part of the entertainment community and the storytelling process. But on the other hand, yeah, I think we have a ways to go. But I think it's good to start conversations like this, because it's how we can kind of get the word out there and get people to start thinking outside the box a little bit more. That's exactly I think, you know, if there is a stigma that's holding back, anybody who who does have a disability like or is, you know, like, I think that ideally, conversations like this will enlighten or shine a light on the fact that like, that doesn't mean you can't like literally you can and you should go after these jobs. They are there and do it. And on that note, too, it's like if people from the disabled community aren't going after these jobs, because they just feel like they can't do it. Number one, there's so many jobs out there in the entertainment industry and not you know, there are someone said, there's some that are not on set, but there's so many different positions available and there are so many jobs that someone have any ability, you know, how someone with a disability could easily do and so I think we're the more that people from the disabled community, get out there and start applying for these jobs. It'll get people used to realizing, Oh wait, there are people out there that are come from different walks of life that want to do these jobs as well. And the more that they get used to seeing people that are applying and having these conversations, the more it'll hopefully become normalized, or at least a little less of a stigma of this doesn't exist.
Alex Howard
And if you are disabled, and you are wanting to work in the entertainment industry, look into respectability, there are nonprofit that I worked with in 2020, that helped me really come into my own, with identifying with my disability, but also getting work. So apply for the respectability Lab, which happens every summer for entertainment professionals with disabilities and literally apply. And if you're at any level, they have an entry level. And, you know, if you're already established and kind of work in the industry already, and respectively, he's working really hard to do what we're talking about, which is get more representation. But I also wanted to ask Aaron, you and I have hung out several times, one time, when we hung out, we watched the screen from last year with audio description, and being a sighted person in using audio description. But beyond that, being a script supervisor, and I'm sure it drives you crazy just watching movies in general, noticing things that are inconsistent, but with the audio description. How was that? And did? Did it kind of make you think like, oh, when I'm on set like not that you need to pay attention more. But like, when you're on set, did you ever find like, oh, this would be described actually, like, you know,
Aaron Sauerland
it's funny, because like, obviously, like watching it was was wild, because like, when you're on set in this position, it's like you're always on, you're always like tuned in to everything that's going on. And because you have to be. And so then like that kind of like programs, your brain. And so like when I am watching movies or TV shows, like outside of work, I've just been like condition to like be spotting things and always thinking and things. But when you when I watched that one watch screen together, we watched it with it with AD. It, it was actually like I was able to kind of like turn off that analytical part. Because the ad is so descriptive. And it's very, it's almost reminiscent of like a radio play. Because it's very, like, concise and tells you exactly what's going on in a way that is still descriptive. And like creates an image. And so I was always able to get sucked into it more because I was relying you rely like less on the visual element that way, if that makes sense. Yeah, that totally makes sense. And I never thought of it in the way of like, it's like a radio play. But I like that. I always tell people to watch a movie with audio description if they're looking into getting into writing or they write. Because I think that while audio description is different from writing a screenplay, it kind of paint, it shows you how to paint a picture with words in a very concise, yet specific way. So yeah, because you know, if you have any thoughts on that, yeah, that's actually something I wanted to touch on. Is that was so shocking to me, because I mean screen. It's a horror movie. Like, there's there's action set pieces where people are being chased and falling down stairs and getting stabbed. And so like, I was very curious, as we were watching it, like, how is it ever going to keep up? You know, and I was blown away by the fact that the ad, if finds such a balance of, of exactly what you said it's concise and detailed at the same time. And that's a skill that I think like every screenwriter is dying for. Because the screenwriters are always fighting the page count. We're always trying to keep things less than they are, and or a you know, less pages. And so like anyone who's a writer of any facet could learn from watching ad exactly what you said. And I think the same thing goes for even if you're a director, like if you watch it with AD, it's Oh, it's almost like a tool to learn. Like when you're composing your shots like how much information are you really coming across is coming across and each grain. That's like very important when you're doing action sequences to where like every shot should be progressing the story forward. Mad Max Fury Road is like a prime example of where every frame is important because it's telling you something and it's cutting so Watch that it has to be telling it to you, like, immediately and in the most like the quickest, most concise way. And so yeah, I think ad is like a great example of that. And I think that there's so much to learn from a writing standpoint, and from a directing standpoint from watching a film of AD.
Alex Howard
Yeah. And I think part of the conciseness is, you know, you're just fit it in between lines of dialogue. And last night, I went to see scream six, and there's a scene where they're on a subway on Halloween. And there's masks, and there's like, four Ghostface masks, and I noticed that Michael Myers mask to, I'm sure there were other ones. But the ad, I don't know if they just didn't have time to say all of the other, you know, others, pinhead, others, whoever all they said was for Ghostface mass. And I was like, Oh, wait, there are other costumes here. But yeah, sometimes, either they don't time or what I was reading online was that they might not have had the rights to say that's Michael Myers, in a paramount movie, because Michael Myers is owned by Universal. But like, like you said, I think having the description in that space between dialogue where usually you still need to leave time for the audience to breathe, you know, you can't just fill every blank void of silence with dialogue, you still need to keep that in there. But there's a fine balance between you know, the breathing, but also letting blind people know what's going on.
Aaron Sauerland
I think it also ties in with focusing on like, what needs to be explained or told for the story sake, like, you know, like, while the costumes there in that Subway is like a fun element in the setting of a painting the picture. But is it necessary for the audience to know that in order to understand the story, like what's going on in this story, like I could see that like, out of necessity and focus on just this the story what's happening in those scenes and the significance, I could see that like, the main point is like, amongst all these halloween costumes, there's four Ghostface costumes. And so and there it goes. And that ties back into the whole thing of you can pry that into your writing, as well. Like I doubt that the script said like, you know, they're on the subway and like it's costumes go, Lord, pinhead, Michael Myers that is gonna die. I'm sure that the Scripture said, like, costumed patrons, or they fill the subway train or something like that.
Alex Howard
Oh, that's very true. And it's funny, because when when I'm watching things that they point out something that like, was super quick, like even yesterday, you know, it was scream to mystery, and you're trying to figure out who killed who. There's a shot and scream six of the police officer playing with his ring. And I was like, Why did they describe that? Like that has to play a part in it. And I'm not gonna say whether it did or not. But like, I was convinced, like, the whole time after that, that was in the first third of the movie. And I was like, okay, there has to be something with his family. Or, you know, they must have been related to the murders, because why else would they describe that? And it's funny. Yeah, there are certain things in AD where I'm like, Okay, if that didn't matter, they wouldn't have said that.
Lee Pugsley
You know, it's also interesting to it that you bring that up, ask because I totally agree with you on that. But then there have been those moments where audio description or ad will describe something. And I think it's important, but it turns out that it was just an added detail. And I think it can be interesting sometimes of figuring out why they decided to describe some things and not other things, even though those things they described may not be completely irrelevant.
Aaron Sauerland
Yeah, I love to look at. Like, I'd love to study a couple mystery films with ADD, like some knives out glass and onion, like even older ones, if they have a D for them, just because I'd love to see what they put in what they don't put in because, like you said, Alex, like, if they put in something like, like, they're pointing out clues, because they're gonna be necessary to get the image like the ending, putting it all together. But if you have someone watching the movie with you, and pointing it out every time that like, you're going to be ahead of the movie, like you're ahead of the audience, like where they were, you shouldn't be. So I almost wonder I'd love to like study a couple of these ad mystery films and see if do they throw in details that are not relevant, you know, it just so that way, the clues are still buried inside of like a tapestry, you know,
Alex Howard
so my favorite example is in the tall grass, which is a Netflix movie. I think it's based on a short story by Joe Hill. And in the beginning of the movie, they're lost in tall grass. That's the whole movie, and there's a church and they said the name of the church, and I was watching it with someone and they were like, that cut way too quick for me. For me to even read the name of That church, and the name of the church ties back into the end of like the whole meaning of the movie. And so I'm like, that was 100% intentional that they did that. And even my sighted friend was watching, we didn't even catch what the name was. So it's interesting that sometimes they say details that aren't even really obvious to the audience,
Aaron Sauerland
I watched Marcel with AD just to see how it was. And it's funny how well the ad works in a movie like Marcel, because the pacing of Marcel is very, it's very, like quiet. And it's a contemplative in a way. And Marcel himself talks in this kind of like, some sort of staccato speech pattern. But so what it enables, though, is like, a lot of time for the ad to come in, and like, give you an idea of what's happening on the screen. without it feeling like it's interrupting the dialogue. I just feel like it's funny, it works really well. In that film, particularly, at least, you know, obviously, I haven't seen a whole bunch in a with AD. But with that, I just was like, wow, this is great. It's really they like, they're finding perfect moments to come in and fill you in, felt nice. And the tools, the right details to describe about the world because there's so many unique things that are shown in Marcel and the way that Marcel interacts with the world and the environment around him. There's so many different details of that, that the ad really captured so well to create a vivid picture of what was going on in the moment where I couldn't catch all of it.
Alex Howard
For me, I was getting a little frustrated, I'm still getting used to the fact that like, I'm not going to be able to see everything that's been described. Like for me, I, I used to use ad for like, what to watch out for how to like, it's telling me what I'm watching. And so therefore, I can like process it easier. But I'm getting to the point now, where I'm hearing things described that I can't see. So I have to fill in those gaps, like in my imagination, pretty much. And I know and Marcel that was one of those cases where they have the expressions like painted on very finely on the actual shell itself. And I couldn't see the expressions at all. And so the description was telling me like, oh, Marcel look shocked, or whatever the emotion is, and I had to kind of like, imagine what that would look like, on the shell itself.
Aaron Sauerland
Yeah, there's a great moment with one when you first kind of Marcel touches on Nana Connie's decomposition, and it's like, Dean is interviewing them. And we just, we just saw them explain to Nana Connie, that it's like a documentary. But they're doing they're doing it again, though, explained to her again. And that's how they kind of lead you into like, oh, and she's starting to decompose. And, and I was like, listen to the ad for that moment. And they, they mentioned like Nana county blinks. And then it says something about, like, Marcel, like, looking down. Like uncomfortably or something. And so it's nice that they still like, you know, for for you like in your situation where you're starting to lose like the finer details. Like, it's nice that the ad can come in and tell you like expressions, you know, like, that's huge, I think. I mean, maybe it's different for you. But I think that that's like a nice element in that regard.
Alex Howard
Oh, yeah. No, it's It's definitely nice. And while it is frustrating, it's nice that yeah, I have that backup, because, you know, if I were 10 years ago, I wouldn't have had that option.
Lee Pugsley
And especially to for like animated films, because like, I think so much of the excitement and fun of an end of animation is the expressiveness of the characters. And like you, Alex, I couldn't see the expressions either. So the ad was extremely helpful in kind of filling in the gaps and giving me a sense of what those expressions are.
Alex Howard
I know, Aaron, you're a big proponent of physical media as I am. And so there was an issue I was having, because I was trying to rewatch Marcel, before this interview. And I wasn't able to because apparently, Showtime is the only place you can watch Marcel the Shell right now, if you're renting it unless you own it, which is why physical media is great. But if you don't own Marcel, the shell, the only place you can watch it online is Showtime. But Showtime does not have audio description, which means we are now we're starting to use a new term called Blind tax, there's a blind tax on herself a shell, that if you're blind, and you can't watch it without ad on Showtime, you either have to pay 1999 to buy it on Amazon or the fiscal desk or whatever it may be. And so it's like, you know, if you're blind, you're basically forced to spend more money on it to enjoy it fully. And so I wanted to obviously get your opinion on physical media and what you thought of that situation, Aaron?
Aaron Sauerland
Yeah, I mean, obviously, like hearing that is so upsetting. It's I like, I wish that that wasn't the case. And it's in, it's even more shocking because Marcel has ad. Like the fact that on the physical media disk, and I'm sure probably when you buy it on digital, and in the theater, and in the theater, like it was all there and accessible. So it doesn't make any sense to me why when you would put it to rent or to stream on Showtime? That you would like the file was already been made? It almost it's makes me feel like it's like a clerical error or like an oversight, like, someone slipped up, sent just like the regular file and didn't send the other one. I like, I can't imagine that it's an intentional thing, for regardless of whether it's intentional or not, it doesn't, you know, doesn't prevent the blind tax, you know,
Lee Pugsley
and it speaks to the greater frustration amongst blind and low vision watchers is that there's not, I mean, I guess, in our opinion, we feel like if there's an ad track, it should accompany the movie on whatever platform it's on. But that's not always the case. I know Alex, like you were gonna watch creed two on Hulu a few weeks ago, and Hulu doesn't have an ad track yet there is an ad track available for free too. And then my experience with the Korean movies is I bought fried one and two on iTunes. Creed two had an ad track when I purchased it, but creed one did not. So because I wanted to watch it with an ad track, I had to pay to rent it on Amazon Prime, even though I just bought a digital copy. So it's like there's so many inconsistencies and the I don't understand why 80 tracks just can't accompany the movie on any platform that it's on.
Aaron Sauerland
Yeah, that's hearing that is so infuriating it I can't even I can't even imagine to be in your guy's shoes. And like, like you said, you said one in four, right? It's the statistic,
Alex Howard
one in four people have a disability. But then even as you get older, you know, obviously older people, your eyesight starts to go. So I feel like you know, just including it would help them the remasters the, what's super frustrating for me, I've now resorted to I will only buy a piece physical media if there is an AV track on the disc, or if there's one on iTunes, and I can redeem the code I'll buy also. But other than that, if there's no track, I'm like, why am I even buying this?
Aaron Sauerland
And that's what I mean by it doesn't make any sense from like, at the end of the day, the film industry is it's an industry, it's a business. And so like, the goal is to make money. And so like, why, why would you go out of your way to, like, alienate or like, like, you're saying, like, I'm only going to buy it if it's accessible to me. So like, at that point, it's like, no, you're just losing business and it's over something as silly as like you already have the track just make it make it accessible. I don't understand the problem.
Alex Howard
Yeah, I think Well, from what I understand working with respectability, a lot of people literally don't know about audio description, which is why the podcast comes in handy because we're trying to educate people that you know, blind people like movies in y'all should help us watch it like I literally Paramount's finally putting, I mean, I bought ghost I bought fatal attraction with it a description which there's like 80s movies like how does that have it? So I literally I bought it like, I will watch these at some point because I haven't. I've seen ghosts. I love ghosts. But now as ad I get to watch them make pottery with AD dude. Like, I'm watching that
Aaron Sauerland
it's gonna be so sensual.
Lee Pugsley
For sure.
Alex Howard
Lee, did you want to talk about the we? We have our topic for next week or next episode? But did you want to talk about the email we got from your friend? For to bring up the topic for next episode?
Lee Pugsley
Yeah, so my friend Evan sent us an email. And thank you everyone for listening to our podcast. And he was wondering what our most anticipated movies for the rest of this year are. And so next episode will be fully dedicated to our most anticipated movies for the rest of 2023. And I'm very excited to dive into that.
Alex Howard
Yeah, that will be a lot of fun. And we want to thank Aaron for being on and Aaron, do you want to plug I know you have a podcast you do you want to plug anything you're working on?
Aaron Sauerland
Yeah, absolutely. So I have a podcast if you're into spooky stories, or you're into urban legends or folklore, Abba, Pat, I have a podcast called campfire stories. And you can find us on all streaming server all podcast services. And you can find us on Instagram I'm at campfire stories underscore podcast. And yeah, it's just a great spooky time I go around interviewing people from all across the country, and they kind of recount the scary stories of their hometowns. And the best part about is it's often stories you've never heard of before. Because to these people in these small towns, it's just kind of like their their lives and their legends. And no one really writes about it. So yeah, so go ahead, check us out there. And thank you guys so much for having
Lee Pugsley
also, to plug in his podcast a little more. It is a really fun podcast of the stories that they talked about. I've listened to a few episodes. They're really fascinating. So I encourage you guys all to check it out. And one last thing here and before you go, just for something a little fun. I just want to do a really quick lightning round of questions with you. They're going to be short answers. Are you open to that? Yeah, let's do it. Okay, so most Washington movie as a kid,
Aaron Sauerland
let's watch a movie as a kid. Probably. Probably like fifl goes west.
Lee Pugsley
Such a good movie.
Alex Howard
I never been heard that movie.
Lee Pugsley
We you need to watch this movie.
Alex Howard
Amazing animated film. I can't think of Don Bluth.
Lee Pugsley
Don Bluth. Yeah,
Aaron Sauerland
the animator of it. And fantastic. He did all these lovable animations of our childhood.
Lee Pugsley
And Jimmy Stewart's last movie before he passed away.
Aaron Sauerland
Man Legends
Lee Pugsley
so legend. Okay, next question. What movies inspired you to get into film?
Aaron Sauerland
Honestly, Tim Burton stuff it's so visual, and I'm a huge horror fan. So I'd say stuff like Tim, Tim Burton's work and then horror movies in general, like Halloween party, the 13th these are things I watched growing up that visually made an impression on me and probably scarred me. But but that's the kind of stuff that I was attracted to, and, and drove me into the industry.
Lee Pugsley
Very nice. And aside from Marcel, what is your favorite animated film?
Aaron Sauerland
I guess, favorite animated film was honestly, Anastasia. I grew up with that movie watching that over and over again. And I loved the music in it so much. And it's not I wouldn't say it's like the greatest animated film. But I would just say as far as like, I adore the the art style. I adore the music. I enjoy the story. So yeah, Anastasia, probably, there was a season of life during school where I watched that movie, like every day for like a month or two. So
Lee Pugsley
I feel you on that.
Aaron Sauerland
Yeah, it's so good. Honestly, I just would say like, a runner up would probably be like Toy Story, or a Pixar film. Pixar films are written so so well. So I think Toy Story is also up there as far as one of my favorites.
Alex Howard
My grandparents owned like six movies and Anastasia was one of them on VHS
Aaron Sauerland
the power of Anastasia
Lee Pugsley
absolutely Anastasia rules. If you could work with one actor, would you choose
Aaron Sauerland
Leonardo DiCaprio?
Lee Pugsley
If you could work with one director, who would you choose?
Aaron Sauerland
who just want one director, I probably David Fincher.
Lee Pugsley
And everyone hates this question, but I'm gonna ask it anyway. favorite all time movie?
Aaron Sauerland
Curious Case of Benjamin Button.
Alex Howard
Wow, that was a quick. So that is the only Fincher movie I have not seen.
Lee Pugsley
It's such a good movie. I highly recommend it. I saw it like three times in the theater.
Aaron Sauerland
Benjamin Button is is it's i It's my go to favorite movie. Whenever someone asked me that question. That's why I was able to answer so quickly is just because that movie is beautiful. It is sad. It is scary. It is funny. It is contemplative on life. It's just to me, it's just it hits every box for me. And it affects me and relates. I connect with it emotionally. And so.
Lee Pugsley
And I feel like it's a little underrated now to like, I know cottoned on it for boards and stuff. But nobody talks about it now. They really shouldn't.
Aaron Sauerland
Absolutely. When I went to college, there was a joke in my freshman year that the faculty would make, which was they would say, you guys are here to learn to make great movies, not whatever that Benjamin Button movie was,
Lee Pugsley
how offensive
Aaron Sauerland
and I would sit there and I'd be like, Are you out of your mind? Like this is? This is one of the best movies ever made.
Lee Pugsley
I feel. Yeah,
Alex Howard
I haven't having not seen it. I think the reason I haven't seeked it out is because it seems like the least Fincher movie of the Fincher movie because he usually does murder and seven and zodiac and dragon tattoo and these, you know, intense things and then oh, it's Brad Pitt Aging Backwards.
Lee Pugsley
Yeah, I think that, you know, often like we talked about Tim Burton and we talked about how big fish in my opinion is his best movie because it's not what you expect from him and to me, I think it's it's the most honest Tim Burton's ever been. And I think that Benjamin Button is the same thing for Fincher, I think Fincher is drawn to these political thrillers and, and murder mysteries, and so on. But I think that Benjamin Button is very human. And I think it's the most exposed and vulnerable. That director has been. That's a great comparison between Benjamin Button and big fish. I love that. All right. Well, I guess that's a wrap. Aaron, thank you so much for being on. It's been so fun to have you guys. Thank you so much. This was a blast. I appreciate and I appreciate what you guys are doing with this podcast. I think it's insanely important. And I'm really glad that you guys are doing this and you guys have me on i I feel honored and I appreciate it.
Alex Howard
Oh, thank thank you so much. Yeah, we really we've been trying to do this for a long time. So we're excited you were able to be on everyone go check out Marcel the Shell. Go watch one br Look up Aaron's IMDB. Just go down the list. Watch them all. Go listen to his podcast. He's a great guy has great girlfriend to
Lee Pugsley
subscribe to our podcast as well. And if you have any questions that you want to ask us, or comments on anything, feel free to email us at dark room film cast@gmail.com Once again, that's dark refilled. cast@gmail.com Thank you all so much for listening today. And we'll see you next time here in the dark room.
Alex Howard
See you guys later.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai