Ep. 8: Up Close With Jamie Gagnon, Filmmaker & Script Coordinator on 9-1-1

Alex and Lee welcome special guest, Jamie Gagnon, Script Coordinator for the television series, 9-1-1. In our conversation, Jamie discusses his short films, making audio description tracks for them, and the current Writers Guild of America Strike.  

Jamie's Accessible Shorts Playlist on Vimeo & YouTube!
Jamie's AD short, Ax-essibility.
A great WGA Strike explainer by Dan Murrell (tell him The Dark Room sent you).
Questions? Email us at darkroomfilmcast@gmail.com
Search for Audio Description availability for any title on the American Council for the Blind's Website!
Find transcripts of our episodes on our hosting site, Buzzsprout!
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Image Description: An orange circle fills the screen with an image of a black & white 'solidarity fist' held high, gripping a pencil with the words 'Writers Guild on Strike' surrounding it.

Transcript

Lee Pugsley  
Happy summer blockbuster season, everyone. Welcome to Episode Eight of the Dark Room, where two blind cinephiles illuminate the sighted. I'm Lee Pugsley.

Alex Howard  
I'm Alex Howard.

Lee Pugsley  
And we are two legally blind guys who are the hosts of this podcast for film lovers of all abilities.

Alex Howard  
Today we have a very special guest, my former roommate, and we also did a podcast together for a couple of years called Not Quite Hollywood, Mr. Jamie Gagnon.

Jamie Gagnon  
Oh, my God, what a welcoming. Thank you.

Lee Pugsley  
Glad to have you here.

Jamie Gagnon  
Thanks. I'm glad to be here.

Alex Howard  
So the reason we have Jamie on the show is he is a short filmmaker. He made a couple of shorts and is currently doing audio description on them, particularly one that kind of plays with the tropes of audio description. So we are going to be talking to him about that. But also, he is a script coordinator on 911. So we are going to be talking to him about the writer's strike that's going on. And we also are going to be answering some listener questions at the end of the show. So stay tuned for that. So Jamie, how's it going?

Jamie Gagnon  
It's going great now that I'm on the show, and I'm not thinking about my unemployment, but...

Lee Pugsley  
[Laughing]

Jamie Gagnon  
No, it's fantastic. Thanks for having me. And I look forward to talking about all things audio description, and all things Hollywood.

Alex Howard  
So Jamie, why don't you tell us about your history with audio description. I think it's great that -- I mean, you and I live together. So we love to hear sighted people's perspective on the audio description world.

Jamie Gagnon  
Yeah, I mean, before I met you, I had never heard of audio description. I had been a long time user of subtitles, believe it or not, as a filmmaker. I wanted to make sure I caught every little line that was said, especially the ones in the background that you're not supposed to usually hear. And some for some reason the subtitles caught those. So I was always a fan of accessibility. And I was happy that subtitles were such a ubiquitous thing. But there was a whole like other world shown to me when you showed me audio description, I didn't know as a sighted person that it was a thing. And I was kind of impressed. It was an eye opening experience. So you know, someone had to write these. And then perform these lines. And there was such, when you showed me some, especially some of the Disney shows like Mandalorian stuff, there was this beautiful purple prose. It just painted a picture in your head that I did not expect. And even as a sighted person, again, very much like the subtitles, I was able to catch things that I normally would never have caught. Like we were watching Big Mouth, for example, and there's a gag, they have a new thing on their sign outside the school every time they show it. And I never have time to catch it, I have to pause it to even read it. But your audio description would always read it out for you, which was really cool.

Alex Howard  
I see. I didn't even remember that about Big Mouth. It's weird because when we lived together, I kind of went through my disability identity journey. I think when we first started living together, I got a job at AMC and was working there for a few years. I don't remember using audio description much when I worked there. But then I think at some point, either during the pandemic, or just before the pandemic is when I really started watching everything with audio description. I mean, we were watching a lot of things together. So you kind of witnessed that journey as we went on.

Jamie Gagnon  
It was right before the pandemic because it was -- the one that really got you fired up about it was the lack of audio description for Parasite. And then you learned about Neon not having audio description on almost anything they had. And of course, they've gotten better since, but that was the first like eye opening moment where you're like, "I want, I need this, and I don't have it."

Alex Howard  
That's very true. I think yeah, I think you're right, it was around the Parasite time. And then I know there were certain movies, like we went through the whole Nightmare on Elm Street series. And you pretty much described it as we were watching it.

Jamie Gagnon  
Yeah, there's some intricate kills in there, little dream sequences. So it's really hard to see what's going on. You know, and I would, I would sometimes joke and throw in a couple of lines that were, or things that were not happening. 

Alex Howard  
Yeah, but it was like ridiculous things that like would never happen. So like, I knew you were joking

Jamie Gagnon  
Right. 

Alex Howard  
But it was like, you know, it was so funny to throw those in. So what do, you as a sighted person, do you get anything out of audio description, especially as a writer, but you know, just being a sighted consumer, besides the Big Mouth thing? Are there things that you noticed that could help people while using audio description that don't necessarily have low vision?

Jamie Gagnon  
Oh, yeah, absolutely. Because I mean, besides what I don't catch as a sighted person, because it's too, too much of a flash on screen. I've noticed as a writer and then going, we'll talk about it later, but writing audio description for my shorts, it's funny how the audio description is essentially the scene description of a script. What I'm writing, which is what you're going to see on screen, in you know, in the script form, is very similar to what audio description scripts are. Which is fascinating. So I really feel like there's a kinship with writers and audio description writers and I can freely appreciate their work and their craft.

Lee Pugsley  
Yeah, it's so interesting because audio description writers and script writers, there's so many similarities between the two styles, yet there's quite a few nuanced differences in how it's done. 

Jamie Gagnon  
Absolutely. Yeah. 

Lee Pugsley  
And Jamie, do you remember, out of curiosity, the first audio described movie that you watched with Alex?

Jamie Gagnon  
Oh, man. Movie, I'm not sure. 

Lee Pugsley  
Or TV show I guess. 

Jamie Gagnon  
I feel like the Mandalorian was the first big show we watched together. We would watch it together every.... what was it, Thursday night at midnight? Because it came out Friday? 

Alex Howard  
Yeah.

Jamie Gagnon  
And we would watch with AD right at 12:01 A.M. 

Alex Howard  
With WandaVision too. Yeah.

Jamie Gagnon  
Yeah, WandaVision as well. But Mandalorian, the first season was right before COVID. And it was like, that was the one where I was just impressed by the, the amount of visualization. Like I could close my eyes and know what exactly was going on, because the audio description was so vivid, and it painted that picture.

Lee Pugsley  
Yeah. Mandalorian is probably one of the best audio described TV shows that I've come across. They just do a stellar job with capturing all of the details that a viewer would need to know. 

Alex Howard  
Yeah, I feel like I learn -- I say this a lot, I literally learn words while watching Mandalorian audio description. I didn't know what a coup de grâce was, and she says coup de grâce in the pilot episode of Mandalorian. And then I know you just made a short film kind of playing with the concept of audio description. Correct?

Jamie Gagnon  
Yeah. So it was actually a, it was a short, It was my fourth short. So there's a, there's an organization or I guess a group out here called Just Scare Me in LA. And they have like this accountability system where if you sign up for a short, you're on the hook for $100, or a short between one and now seven minutes long. And it's supposed to be a horror short, it's supposed to be, it's supposed to be scary. And I when I first went there, my wife introduced me to the people who run it. And now we're friends. And I was just enamored the first time I saw, we saw Round Eight live, and I'm like, I need to do this. So one of the first ideas I had, besides the one I actually made, which was like child's play parody with my cat where he's possessing my body.

Alex Howard  
I love that short by the way. 

Jamie Gagnon  
Thank you. 

Alex Howard  
That's one of my favorite ones that you've done.

Jamie Gagnon  
Well, that was my first one. I had a lot of ideas that first night watching as a viewer. So I had an idea of how to kind of like play into the tropes of audio description, but make it part of the short, and I didn't know how to do it. So it was my fourth short, so that was eight months later when I finally cracked it because every, every round I'm like, Okay, what are we gonna do next? We had a couple ideas banked and sometimes an idea supersedes the others. But the AD one finally cracked. And it's called Ax-essability, but it's spelled with A X dash E S S, so it's not really accessible in terms of reading. But it is accessible in that it has subtitles and audio description built in the actual video, there's no way to watch without them. Like it's just part of the short. So the idea, is I wanted to break the fourth wall. So  Ax-essability kind of starts out with this girl walking in a dark and creepy like parking garage, going to do her laundry. And it was inspired by our real laundromat in our apartment building. It is disgusting. Like water bubbles up from the drain. There's a bunch of dust and cobwebs everywhere. It's really bad. But you know, unfortunately, it's our laundry room. So we had this idea. And so I had this long walk from the back of the garage to the laundry room. So I had plenty of room built in for audio description. Like I said the whole script, audio description was a character. Like AD was a character and then there's a fourth wall break where there's an alternate AD track trying to say something that's not really happening. So the AD person has to keep saying "No, that's not what's happening. We just see this." The AD track, Erica my wife, she was getting more frustrated by the lies that the alternate AD was doing. And then so after she leaves the laundry room, she gets attacked by this killer and murdered with an axe (hence the spelling Ax-essibility). The footage rewinds, and you pull out to the bedroom where the guys were editing the video of the of the actual short and you find out That guy, the killer, IS the alternate AD. And the stuff he's saying is essentially, it's like Jason Voorhees, if you were listening in his mind while he was about to kill somebody. Like what he sees his world as before he kills somebody, it was really fun to me. So then he eventually, in the real world, hears the AD track still talking, of course explaining what we're seeing in the real world. And then he's like, "Are you about done? Like do you have to describe everything?" And then he lunges for the camera and cut to black. And she's like, murdered essentially off screen.

Alex Howard  
That's great. So we'll have to link to the short in the description. But I really liked that you played with the tropes, with pretty much breaking the fourth wall of AD. Because not only I mean, it obviously appeals to low vision people but it also brings, it brings awareness to audio description to people who don't know what that is. Lee, have you had a chance to watch the short?

Lee Pugsley  
I did watch the short and I thought it was really clever with the way that you played with the tropes of audio description and the way that you broke the fourth wall. It was funny because when I first watched it, I was a little confused. I'm like, Wait, why are there multiple voices describing things and what's going on? But once you get to the end of it, it all made sense. And I was like, Oh man, that's so clever. And I really liked what you did with it. It kind of like put a little bit of a twist in it for me and I really appreciate that.

Jamie Gagnon  
Well thank you. I was trying to not only have fun with the project, but also trying to give an exciting unseen kind of short for people who need audio description like, the fact that you're confused at first, which I feel bad, of course about. It's like confusing the audience I'm trying to talk to. But also then, when you realize what's happening, you can rewatch it. And there's something else you can pick up on. I also, as a viewer of audio description with Alex, for so many years, I added some things that were sticking points. Yeah, like a few episodes ago, you talked about when a jumpscare should be, like when they should describe a jumpscare. And I played with that notion. So there's, I think, the cat one, the audio description says it first on purpose, and then you hear the cat. And then there's a point where she's walking out of the laundry room right before she was attacked. And the audio description cuts off, and then after the jump, finishes the 'what happens to her'. So I was like playing with the tropes of like the timing of it, because obviously, it's not like intentional. You know, those people who are doing a fantastic job without audio description and higher productions, they have to put it where they can. But it is fun as a viewer to play with those tropes.

Lee Pugsley  
Now, when you were writing this script, because the audio description part of it is built into the script, did you include the description as you were writing? Or did you first film everything and then go back later and do the AD script?

Jamie Gagnon  
The AD was in there, from the moment I wrote it. You have some things that were in scene description for the reader of the script. And those were also translated. So I had to make a separate script, essentially, just for my wife to read the audio description lines I needed and where I could put them in. But I also put her AD as dialogue in the script. So there's AD and then my killer character is Alt AD. So like that was there from the beginning. And like I said, I gave a long lead time, she's slowly walking in this creepy area. So there's plenty of quiet time, there's barely a line. There's like, probably five lines total that's not AD track. Like it's her, she has like two lines, and then I have like five as the killer at the end. So it was purposely built in from the beginning.

Alex Howard  
And then you're also currently making audio description tracks for your other shorts, correct?

Jamie Gagnon  
Yeah, so I should have a couple up before this episode airs. And that's been a challenge, because they're not built in from the beginning. So I have to do like everybody else does and try to find a spot where I could put them in, put the lines in, and give the most pertinent information, not only to the story, but also to what's happening on screen. It's an interesting challenge.

Alex Howard  
Well, the cat one will have one by the time this goes up, right? 

Jamie Gagnon  
Yes, the very first short. I'm doing it in chronological order, Sir Stirs will have audio description. And then Autoslay, the second one will have audio description. The third one is in festivals right now. So um, it'll be up there, but unlisted until it's up. So eventually, they'll all be up. 

Alex Howard  
So we will link to all the ones that have AD so far in the description. Sir Stirs is really, really great. Definitely my favorite one. And Ax-essibility is awesome, too. Did you have any other questions about the shorts, Lee? 

Lee Pugsley  
No, I'm very excited to watch the other shorts when they have audio description. And it's just really interesting to hear you talk about your process with writing the AD scripts for those shorts, because like you said, that's a whole different ballpark, because there was no AD incorporated into the actual script itself. And I know that yeah, some of the challenges I've always heard about are like, you know, the timing and how you only have like three seconds to get some pertinent piece of information in. How do you do that really quickly? Or there's so many things to describe, how do you choose what to describe? 

Jamie Gagnon  
Right?

Alex Howard  
I think I also, like when you've described movies to me that didn't have audio description. I know, a lot of times, I don't know if it's same for you, Lee -- when I'm with friends, and they're describing things, a lot of times they will describe things that like professionals wouldn't describe. If there's a sound effect, you don't need to describe because we heard it. But I know doing it so much for me, watching things together with you, Jamie, I think you've learned that. So did that help you in writing the actual description for your shorts?

Jamie Gagnon  
Yeah, absolutely. Audio cues are there in the mix. So you don't need to say anything about them. To that point. So, minor spoilers for my second short film, hopefully you'll see in the link below. The second short, it's very important that this, this girl named Cassie, the main character, she's watching TV on this horror streaming service, and you see her in this horror short that's previewing, like a streaming service like Netflix would. And it's a quick shot. And so I didn't have that in the initial script, saying that it's another, or it looks exactly like Cassie or it's a mirror of Cassie. And so I had to read like, you know, going through it again, I was recording the lines. I'm like, oh, I need to say that. Like it has to set up what the whole premise of the story is. And I missed that first one. And so like the other two, she has two other shorts that she watches and those other two, I do clearly say it. So it would be confusing, I imagine for you guys to understand that the entire premise is that every short she's seeing is her. You know, so I had to go back and adjust those to make more sense. But yeah, it's a really interesting process to learn what needs to be said for the audio description so people can understand what the plot is.

Alex Howard  
Yeah. 

Lee Pugsley  
To touch on something you said, Alex, is that when you watch movies with friends, each person describes it a little differently, which I think is really interesting. I've watched some movies or TV shows with friends who are describing certain things to me, and everyone has their own style. And it's interesting to see what other people feel is important, and also the language that they use to describe it.

Alex Howard  
Yeah. And it's funny because, even -- it's the same thing with walking around the city with a friend, they don't know what I can't see. And so there are times where they'll describe something that I don't need described, or tell me when there's a curb when I can see the curb. But then if I say, hey, I can see that, I don't need that described, later down the line, there will be something that I need that they won't. So a lot of times I let them over-describe, because I don't want to eventually get it to where they're under-describing if that makes any sense. 

Jamie Gagnon  
Like you don't want to discourage them?

Alex Howard  
I don't want, I don't want to tell them, well I can see that curb. And then you know, there's one later that's maybe not painted red that they think I can see, but I can't.

Lee Pugsley  
You never want to be in a position where you need someone to describe something visually to you when you're out and about, and it's not, the description is absent. So I agree that it's better to take the greater good, which is if they over describe certain things, then I'll take that over them not describing enough and tripping over a curb or running into a pole or something like that. And I think this whole conversation goes back to the point that we're making with this podcast, too, is that it's all about education as well. That people that aren't in our visual states that don't know what we can or can't see. And we can't expect them to be mind readers either. So we have to help them out and just communicate in dialogue with them, which I know it's taken me a while to get to that place of learning even HOW to communicate what I need, what I can see, what I can't see, and what's helpful to me, both with watching media, as well as being in the city on the street.

Alex Howard  
It's definitely hard. Yeah, not -- people not being able to understand what I can and can't see. But I mean, it's different for everyone, so it definitely makes sense. 

Jamie Gagnon  
And to that point, for my other fellow sighted people, I would say it especially if you know somebody who has low vision in your friend group or your family, but also even if you don't, watch something with audio description and see what they're describing. Like it's really important to learn that so when, if you need to help somebody in the real world, you can find that finesse of fine tuning. "Oh, it's more pertinent. This stuff is harder to see. There's less contrast," like that kind of stuff that Alex was talking about. It might help alleviate some of that issue. Like you know, it's not just on you guys to describe what you can and can't see. You should have the people around you learn what is most important to describe.

Lee Pugsley  
Great point, it definitely is a two way street for sure.

Alex Howard  
That's why at first I found audio description a little annoying, because it was describing things that didn't need described. But I think I've kind of learned as I've watched so many things with AD, my brain kind of tunes out the things that I don't need. And then it is listening to everything. But somehow it almost like takes in the stuff that I need more than other things. 

Jamie Gagnon  
I gotcha. 

Alex Howard  
But yeah. So, Jamie, you're -- you make shorts on the side. But I know your day job is a script coordinator for 911. Correct? 

Jamie Gagnon  
Yeah. 

Alex Howard  
The WGA strike is the big news story right now in the entertainment industry. So do you want to talk a little bit about why they're striking? And I know you've been on the picket lines a little bit. So why don't you talk a little bit about that too.

Lee Pugsley  
And quick interjection for those that don't know what WGA stands for. It stands for Writers Guild of America, which incorporates most entertainment industry writers for major studios, both for TV and film. 

Alex Howard  
Yeah, so the last WGA strike was in 2007. And there were many shows and movies that frankly, sucked because of the writer strike. Quantum of Solace being one of them, Lost. There were so many shows that, like they say, jumped the shark because they didn't have writers, movies that didn't turn out well. And so I mean, eventually, if the strike goes on long enough, this time, we will see the same result, but hopefully it doesn't. But yeah, what are they striking about? What's the disagreement? And how are the picket lines that you've been on Jamie? 

Jamie Gagnon  
Yeah. So first, yeah, I agree. Also, by the way, Heroes was my show that I was like, What the hell's going on?

Lee Pugsley  
I remember that. 

Jamie Gagnon  
It was a rough second season. So yeah, I should again preface that I'm not at the Writers Guild yet. My information has come from the Writers Guild and some of the talking points and people I've talked to on the picket lines, but I -- yeah, I've been a script coordinator for a year now. I was a writer's assistant for a couple years before that. And we were fortunate enough to be in a union. We're in the IATSE Local 871. We've only been in the Union for about three, four years now, as these professions. So union privileges have been really helpful for me to negotiate better raises, make sure I have guaranteed hours, like that's very important stuff. And that's the baseline of what the Writers Guild are asking for. So the Writers Guild brings demands to the American Motion Picture and Television producers A.M.P.T.P. They negotiate on each topic. And a lot of them have been figured out, a lot of them have been agreed upon. And they had their negotiations. For example, the next role I would be in as a staff writer. And so now, one of the things they've negotiated, this may sound foreign to you, and I'll explain if needed, but staff writers, you get paid a weekly rate. And if you don't write three episodes in a season, you don't get script fees. So script fees are like the amount you get paid right away for writing something. There's not residuals, residuals come later. And then there's weekly pay. Our staff writers now will get the script fee, which is like I think your rate for an hour long drama's like $44,000. And so that was one of the things that we we're really excited about it as pre-Writers Guild members. The biggest sticking points currently are residuals for streaming and the use of AI in script writing. Corporations want to use AI and to use the Writers Guild scripts to feed it, to help learn how to write. A lot of the things they're not negotiating, and they're not even trying to bring a counteroffer. The only thing they said for the AI for example, is to -- they will have yearly meetings to talk about the advancements in technology, which is just a bunch of nothing burger. So there's, there are a lot of things that they're not negotiating and they're trying to hold out. You know, they've been buying a lot of shows in what they call mini-rooms. And that's another thing that we're fighting. In a nutshell, mini-rooms are not just like the the amount of writers per room. But what this mini-room specifically is, is that these shows, the streaming services especially, will order a bunch of episodes to be written by a couple of people, before they ever Greenlight. And that's the key. So they're paying them less than they're supposed to because they're circumventing the minimums we've agreed upon.

Alex Howard  
Residuals, if you guys don't know, the way used to work before streaming was, you'd air the first episode and then every time it aired after that, there would be residuals for the actors, for the directors, for the writers. But now that there aren't really, quote unquote, reruns, because not many people have cable, you can watch any episode anytime you want forever. And so they are fighting to see how much they would get paid, if you get paid per play, if you get paid for how long the episode's on the streaming service, all of that. And then mini rooms also now, so -- the way TV used to work would be what? 23, 24 episodes a season? And now it's down to like 10, 12, eight, on streaming services. So writers are saying, with less episodes, but the same amount of work, you know that they were getting paid per episode correct? And now that there's less episodes, they want to change how they get paid, so that they can actually make a living and do this so they don't need a side hustle. Basically getting paid part time to write a Emmy award winning show. Is that correct, Jamie? 

Jamie Gagnon  
Well, yes, it's partially true, because there's just a bunch of, there's a bunch of issues that are kind of overlapping in these things. So the mini-rooms for example, they're not, you know, a lot of the writers who are in these rooms, you know, if a few people that are just dying to write them before they're greenlit, they're not guaranteed time on set, they're not guaranteed so many weeks. So there's a lot of things. We'll have to link to that video that Dan Murrell put, because it really breaks down everything in a very descriptive way. But the whole point is, writers are not also, not guaranteed a certain amount of weeks, they're not able because of these mini-rooms, they're not able to be on set to learn how to produce. And there's is going to be an issue, if we don't fix this now, 5, 10, 15 years, however long it takes, there's going to be an issue where there are not enough show runners who have experience on set. And that's literally half the writing, is like to be on set, adjust dialogue, adjust scenes on the fly. You're answering questions left and right. In between lunch, you're scouting the next location, like you have to be on set to learn how to be a showrunner and to see your words on paper come to life. And if you don't have that person there, the script is going to be worse, producing is going to be worse, like shows are going to be -- we're going to have an existential crisis in our, in our industry if we don't fix this now. And that's why we're fighting this. And to go on your point of residuals, there are fewer reruns on networks and cable televisions now, because everybody has the next-day streaming on their service like Paramount Plus and Disney with Hulu. For example, I heard one of the writers, I think it Brittani Nichols from Abbott Elementary, if the show would rerun on ABC, it's like $22,000. It's like half the script for you, right? And then it goes, it halves every time it airs again. But because it's next-day in Hulu, where she's getting maybe $735 compared to the $22,000 she had got if it would have been on aired on ABC. And that's the issue. And this was one of the things that we were trying to fight for in 2007. But then corporations were saying, oh, you know new media may not ever make any money and all this other stuff. And so the residuals were, were a fraction of what they were on cable. And back then it wasn't much of an issue. But now as you all are aware, Netflix, Amazon Prime, Hulu, everything's exploded. Everybody has a streaming service now and they're they're making money hand over fist. And they're not paying the residuals that people are owed.

Lee Pugsley  
And the difference between you know, back then in 2007, and now, is because of all of the streaming options available, it makes the writers' power less than it did when it was just network and cable TV. 

Jamie Gagnon  
Yeah.

Lee Pugsley  
And the other thing too, I just want to dispel a myth for anyone listening out there that isn't aware of all of the logistics of how the entertainment industry works. I think that there is a myth that sometimes people think, if you're a writer in Hollywood, you're making a lot of money and you're living the highlife. Which is not really true at all. I mean, you think about it, let's say you write a script for $40,000, a TV show episode, then you get taxed on that, you have to pay your agent, you know. If you have a literary agent, you pay them 10 or 20%. If you have a manager, you also pay them a percentage of that. And then the Writers Guild takes out a percentage of what you make as well. So you could make $40,000 on an episode, and then walk away with like, you know, half of that, 

Jamie Gagnon  
Yeah, the script fee keeps your lights on for a couple months. But you still need residuals to keep -- you know, because a lot of these contracts that people sign, especially when shows are on hold, they can't write for anything else until the next season gets picked up or not. So they're literally stuck, unable to work. And that's an issue. And that's why we're trying to fight. So we have a minimum amount of weeks worked. And we have a minimum amount of residuals that make this job livable. And that's what they're, one of the biggest sticking points the Writers Guild is talking about, they're trying to make us, the writers, a gig economy. Where it's like, Oh, you just work right for a couple of weeks, and that's it. Like there is a stark difference from what it used to be and what it is now. And it needs to be fixed. And this has been a long going battle. 

Alex Howard  
And I think I'd like to touch briefly on the AI issue. Because I know within the audio description community, it's also a debate about whether AI should be used to narrate or write audio description. The human element is always better. I know it's a sensitive topic. So I don't want to get too much into the debate with audio description, per se. But that industry is having the same debate as the writers, which is basically for the writers, they're saying no AI will get credit for writing a script. But then it's like, why are we even using, you know, the writers don't want AI to be involved at all in writing. Is that correct, Jamie?

Jamie Gagnon  
Yeah, and there was even -- a lot of the articles online are pretty hard, because they're narratively shifted to favor the producers. The producers put out a statement, and they gave it some air, that writers would love to use AI. And like, that's just not the case. Like we do not want to lose our livelihood to make the initial process, quote unquote, easier, because it's not.

Lee Pugsley  
On that note, as well, nothing can ever capture the human experience as authentically as a human being. I think that there are some benefits to using AI as a tool in certain ways. But at the same time, no AI can write, in my opinion, no way AI can fully capture the authenticity of the human experience, because they're not fully living it. And I think if AI does become involved in script writing, we're going to lose a lot of personal and honest narrative from the human perspective.

Alex Howard  
Yeah, I actually went on ChatGPT and asked it to, just to see what it could do, write me a five page script about... So I gave like some very detailed description, and it spit out five pages in two seconds. And I was like, this is very impressive, but you know, it still had enough wrong with it, that it was like, if we shot this, it would feel very disjointed and not relatable.

Jamie Gagnon  
Was it in script format? 

Yes, it was. Okay. That's surprising. There was actually somebody who had asked, Hey, ChatGPT, which job is easier for you to take over? AI to take over? Studio executives or writers? And the answer is like, Yeah, well, they both have some merits. But since studio executives make decisions based on analytics, and numbers, AI can easily do that job. And whereas screenwriting is human emotions and experiences, then that's harder to replicate. And it was just really funny, like, yeah, so we can replace the studio execs with the AI no problem. 

Alex Howard  
That is funny. 

Jamie Gagnon  
Is this what you want, guys?

Alex Howard  
But yeah, so then for the -- as far as the writer strike goes, there have been things that have been delayed already. The new Daredevil series, the Blade movie, there are some bigger projects as well. The House of Dragons still goin g, but I think Rings of Power is kind of on the fence about whether they are still going to go or not. But Jamie, what is the... For picketing purposes, I know, obviously, things are getting delayed because they don't have writers. But beyond that, the picketing is trying to delay projects that have already been written as well, right?

Jamie Gagnon  
Well, yeah, not only are shows being halted, who are in currently in the writing mode, but the picketing, which I only learned while picketing, is designed to stop productions from shooting currently. How it works is because other unions like the Teamsters, the transport guys. 

IATSE 

IATSE, they're not crossing picket lines out of solidarity. So that shuts the production down. And that's what is really exciting about this, because it's forcing the producers to listen. Like okay, we're gonna hurt you where your wallet is until you do something about this, until you come back to the table and negotiate in good faith. The good thing is, Fingers crossed, that is that the DGA and SAG, which is the Directors Guild of America and the Screen Actors Guild, they are also up for negotiations. As of our recording, the DGA is starting negotiations today, May 10. And SAG is starting, I think, a week or two later.

Alex Howard  
I think they're both up June 30 or something. 

Jamie Gagnon  
Yeah. So if, if we all were end to end up on strike, this would be resolved very soon, because nothing could be done. Literally nothing. No actors, no directors, no writers, there's just nothing you can do. No productions could even open up shop, period. They don't resolve it before then, if it comes to that, it would really get them back to the table and actually negotiate in good faith and, and these big things like residuals and AI could be taken care of.

Alex Howard  
Yeah, I would almost rather things get delayed than just stay the course without writers, because certain things, you know, the quality of it would not be as good. For example, there's a rumor that Deadpool 3, I mean, Ryan Reynolds technically can't rewrite on the spot for Deadpool 3. So like, we're not going to have as many ad-libs if this keeps going and going in the new Deadpool, which would be awful. So I think the quality of the content goes down if writers aren't around.

Lee Pugsley  
100%. 

Jamie Gagnon  
Yep. 

Lee Pugsley  
And it's interesting because to your point, Jamie, the Directors Guild and the Screen Actors Guild, especially the DGA, has a lot of power right now. If they decide to go on strike, then I guess SAG wouldn't necessarily have to go on strike because production would be halted based on the DGA striking alone. And that would really get the studio heads, like you were saying, to pay attention very quickly.

Alex Howard  
Are you in SAG, Lee, you're not, are you?

Lee Pugsley  
I am not in SAG yet, no. That's the goal. But maybe obviously I'll wait till all this is settled to figure out the right time to join.

Alex Howard  
Yeah. And I was asking, I reached out to a contact of mine, Liz Gutman, and asked her how audio description would be affected if audio description writers were in the WGA. And she was saying the only way it's affected is obviously, if there's less content coming in, there's going to be less to describe. Which means less work for audio description narrators and writers. So potentially, I mean, it could be endangering post houses and all that stuff, too. But that's only if the strike lasts a long time, which hopefully it will not.

And to clarify, audio describers are not part of the Writers Guild. 

Jamie Gagnon  
Correct? Yeah.

Alex Howard  
So yeah. Did you have any other questions for Jamie, Lee? Jamie Lee Curtis?

Jamie Gagnon  
[Laughing]

Lee Pugsley  
I think I have all my questions answered for now. I'm just intrigued to see where this goes, and hope that there can be negotiations and resolutions that can please all parties, sooner rather than later, for the livelihood of writers having employment, and also for the quality of film and TV that will be coming out in the next year.

Alex Howard  
Yeah, another story that I found interesting that actually just dropped today, Strays got delayed by two months, purely because they they need that PR time on the late night shows. And they wouldn't get that, the late night shows are not going because the writer strike. So they delayed it two months just so they can have their stars appear on Jimmy Fallon and things and promote the movie. 

Jamie Gagnon  
That's wild.

Lee Pugsley  
This is a side tangent. But when we're talking about this, it made me think of something in my theater world that can be affected very soon by the writers strike. So the Tony Awards are Sunday, June 11. And normally, a writer from the Writers Guild, because it's for TV, will write the opening number, they'll write the transitions, and they'll write any little bits that are put in there. This year, because the WGA is on strike, it will be very interesting to see how the Tony Award Ceremony is presented. And it'll just be really fascinating to watch it play out.

Alex Howard  
I think the MTV awards, wasn't it last week?

Jamie Gagnon  
Yeah, the movie and TV awards were already affected, yeah. 

Alex Howard  
Drew Barrymore pulled out of hosting to support the WGA. So I wouldn't be surprised if the Tonys kind of fall apart a little bit as well. I mean, hopefully not.

Jamie Gagnon  
I mean, they could still do musical numbers on stage, but that's uh, you know, they have to just essentially read the categories. There's no like, there's no like jokes really, they can write. There's no, you know, fluff to it. It just like here's, here's a number and here's an award. Here's a number and award.

Lee Pugsley  
And it'll be interesting to see if Ariana DeBose, who played Anita in the Steven Spielberg West Side Story from 2021 -- she's the host, and I wonder if she'll pull out as well. 

Alex Howard  
And I think TV, I don't want to say it will be affected more, but the writers on TV are the show runners. So like the main writer is usually the show runner on a TV show. I mean, in movies, the director isn't always a writer on the movie. So I think, you know, for I think Andor is having a debate right now because they're shooting season two of Andor, and Tony Gilroy is one of the writers, but also the showrunner. So like, can they keep going and making Andor? And, you know, he shows up to work? If he does, he can't really make any changes on the spot. Right, Jamie?

Jamie Gagnon  
Yeah, he just announced today he's not working anymore. Because, okay, so he -- so Tony Gilroy, and most show runners, because they're also producers, they're  what's called hyphenates, and hyphenates can't do any writing work either. But the problem is, a lot of the producer work requires some kind of tweak, whether it be writing, you know, you change a costume, you change a line, that has to be revised and put out as a script revision. So that stuff, in almost everything they do, cannot be done. So there was a little backlash, I guess, with Tony Gilroy, still working on Andor. But now he's officially as of today, May 10, has said, No, I'm done.

Alex Howard  
Are they shutting down production? Or they're just going on without him?

Jamie Gagnon  
It sounds like they're shutting down production? Because he's the showrunner, I think.

Alex Howard  
Yeah. So I mean, we will see, I'm really hoping it gets resolved. I mean, obviously, I want the writers to be paid what they owe, but also, like, in a year from now, six months from now, we're gonna start seeing the effects of the strike, whether it be with content with not as good a quality or... If it goes on long enough, I mean, there just gonna lean into reality TV a lot and international content to try and fill in the gap. 

Jamie Gagnon  
I mean, it's worth it. I mean, if we're talking about the future of television, as we know it, even a year delay is worth every single moment, because we're going to lose those showrunners. You know, the experienced showrunners like, you know, 5 to 10 years down the road. TV will be horrible. And people won't be able to make a living off of it. And then the corporations just keep raking in money that, they have to pay what's due. As simple as that. You know.

Alex Howard  
I completely agree. I hope the producers give a little bit so they can get this strike resolved quicker rather than later. 

Jamie Gagnon  
Yeah. 

Lee Pugsley  
Yeah. 

Alex Howard  
So do we want to go over to the listener question, Lee?

Lee Pugsley  
Yeah, we have, I know that we got a listener question in. So why don't you go ahead and read it and let's talk about it. 

Alex Howard  
Yeah, I'm gonna have Jamie read it out loud so that we can get the exact wording. We got a listener question from Joel.

Jamie Gagnon  
All right. Joel says, "What is a recent film you have watched where the music or score was really good? This could be whimsical, and awe inspiring, to creepy and atmospheric."

Alex Howard  
So we're going to have all of us answer this question. None of us know what each other's answers are. Because I thought that'd be fun. So I have a whimsical one, would definitely be Super Mario Bros. Because it had you know, the game sound effects and the score is very game like. But also I mean, that peaches song is just awesome. That is my favorite part of the movie. In a movie I didn't like as a whole, the peaches song is awesome. And I really hope it gets nominated at the Oscars so he can do a performance on stage.

Lee Pugsley  
I will follow that up by saying there's two scores that I was debating between. I'm a big film score person. So thank you for this question, Joel. I love talking about film scores and could talk about them all day. I agree with you, Alex, that the Super Mario Bros. score by Brian Tyler was one that really stuck out to me from recent movies. And what I loved about it is, it had all of the different Mario themes from a plethora of games, dating back to the original Nintendo to the current Mario games. And it just was a meshing and mash up of all of these different themes. And listening back to the soundtrack, it's so wonderful to hear the Mario themes in a full orchestral treatment. And it's familiar because it's the themes that we know but they're done in such a new way. And I would even venture to say a more grandiose way. That, what made me so happy. And then the other score that I really liked from a recent movie was the Dungeons and Dragons: Honor among Thieves score by Lorne Balfe. I thought that it captured the sense of adventure, the light hearted and fun nature of the film so well. And once again, listening back to that score multiple times, it just becomes more and more enjoyable and more and more effective every time I listened to it.

Jamie Gagnon  
Shout out to Koji Kondo, too for the original Super Mario compositions. So, like, it's pretty cool to see and hear all of his music intertwined with the score from was it Brian Tyler? 

Brian Tyler. Yeah, huge shout out to him. Yes, absolutely.

And mine is... Alex was so sure we'd all have the same answer. Mine is actually Sisu. As they call it, the John Wick of World War Two or whatever. It's like this --

Alex Howard  
John Wick of Finland. 

Jamie Gagnon  
Yeah, pretty much. You've always -- Yeah, you follow this gold miner in, I think, '44, in Finland, and he's just minding his own business with his horse and dog. And then he gets attacked by Nazis. They steal his gold and he's like on a revenge mission. And the score is epic. It's like, it's driving. It's like, it's like you're -- it's like a Viking parade coming your way. Like you just, it's like really into the Finnish roots. And it's like, just like, nonstop. And it's just such a -- it just makes the movie more impactful because it is such a adventure and a journey and you're -- the music makes you feel like you're lockstep with with him as he's like, mowing down Nazis left and right. If you haven't seen it, fantastic film. Very little dialogue, so plenty of room for audio description. And yeah, highly recommend it.

Alex Howard  
Yeah, I had a lot of fun with that movie too. I think it's weird. It felt small. I would say it's probably the smallest movie I've ever seen in Dolby in terms of scope. 

Jamie Gagnon  
Yeah. 

Alex Howard  
But it was definitely a very fun movie. I mean, killing Nazis is always fun to watch. I think the -- in terms of the creepy aspect of that question, I always have to lean -- the new Scream movie. Scream always has great music, I think. What is the name of the song that's in every Scream movie? 

Jamie Gagnon  
Red Right Hand by Nick Cave.

Alex Howard  
Whenever I hear that song in the Scream movie, I get goosebumps. I love it so much. Because it makes it feel like this is a Scream movie. And it's just, I know that's not part of the score. But that song in itself is great. 

Jamie Gagnon  
Absolutely. 

Alex Howard  
Lee, did you have a creepy one? Or no?

Lee Pugsley  
I don't have a creepy one off the top of my head. I'm less inclined to listen to horror or suspense scores outside of the movies. And there's not -- I guess it's more so just because my intake of horror hasn't been as big recently. So there's nothing that comes to mind.

Jamie Gagnon  
Oh, yeah, you remember it made me realize that yeah, Evil Dead Rise has an insane score. I mean, all the, all the Evil Dead movies have like this like, this like booming, again, epic music behind it. It heightens everything from scares to like, just when you see the blood is like, Oh, it's just like in your face. All the instruments just go like level 10.

Alex Howard  
I think especially in this one, like the title card comes out of a lake. 

Jamie Gagnon  
Yeah. And it's like so loud. 

Alex Howard  
Right. 

Jamie Gagnon  
I completely agree with that.

Lee Pugsley  
A general comment I'll make about horror or suspense film scores is I think that oftentimes they don't get enough credit for what they actually do. I think that there are some wonderful compositions that are extremely effective in creating the eerie, suspenseful, or scary mood of those movies. And while they may not be ones that you're going to listen to while you're driving in the car at two in the morning, they are some really wonderful compositions with a lot of really nice intricacies that create mood in such a powerful and effective way for what the film was going for.

Alex Howard  
I also think two trailers that have really good music that came out in the last week. The Dune Part Two trailer, I love the way they cut that trailer with the music. And then also, I think one of the best scores of the summer no doubt is going to be Oppenheimer, because you got that, you know, classic Christopher Nolan. I feel like all of his scores, um... Who is it, Hans Zimmer?

Lee Pugsley  
Typically, but he didn't use Hans Zimmer for Tenet, because Hans Zimmer wanted to do Dune. 

Alex Howard  
Do you know if he did Oppenheimer? 

Jamie Gagnon  
Ludwig Göransson, who did Mandelorian I think, right?

Lee Pugsley  
Yeah, yeah. 

Alex Howard  
Oh, interesting. Okay, 

Lee Pugsley  
Yeah, I do like Ludwig Göransson.

Alex Howard  
Well, the new Oppenheimer trailer, the music in it had sort of a Dark Knight score feel. So I really liked that one, too.

Lee Pugsley  
I would agree with that. I really liked the music in the new Oppenheimer trailer and the new Dune trailer.

Alex Howard  
Yeah, there's a part in the Dune trailer, where one of the creatures -- I mean, you know the creatures better than I do, Lee. One of them, like, appears to be screaming. And the score in the trailer, the music they use, it sounded like someone screaming. And so it sounded like that sound was coming out of the person's mouth in the trailer, I thought that was really cool.

Lee Pugsley  
Right. And I really liked the first Dune score as well. So I'm sure that the second one will not disappoint.

Alex Howard  
But yeah, I think that wraps it up for us. So if you have any questions for us, anything at all, movies, eyesight, please email us at DarkRoomFilmCast@gmail.com. We love to interact with our listeners and hear from you guys. And Jamie, where can they find you and follow what you're doing?

Jamie Gagnon  
Um, I try to have good SEO. And that's Search Engine Optimization. I've learned that years ago. Everything I have is Guy on a Wire. G U Y O N A W I R E, guy on a wire. And that's Twitter, Instagram, Facebook. Yeah. And also GuyOnAWire.com. And we're Guy On a Wire Productions on YouTube and Vimeo. And you'll see the links to the shorts below with AD. The accessibility shorts, they're going to have a different thumbnail. And they're going to be bright yellow, with black lettering, bold, black lettering for good contrast. And even in the description is going to have like an explanation of what the thumbnail looks like. Image description. That's the term.

Lee Pugsley  
Awesome. I appreciate the fact that you're doing those image descriptions too, Jamie. That's super great. And also, thank you so much for being on our podcast today. It was wonderful to have you.

Jamie Gagnon  
Thank you for having me. I'm a fan of the show. 

Alex Howard  
Yeah, itwas a lot of fun. 

Lee Pugsley  
All right. Thanks again for listening, everyone. And we'll see you next time here on The Dark Room.

Alex Howard  
Right. Bye guys.

Jamie Gagnon  
Bye

Lee Pugsley  
And a huge shout out to All Senses Go for making transcripts of this podcast episode possible.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai