Lee and Alex are guest speakers at an "Accessibility in Cinema" class at DePaul University. Listen in!
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Lee and Alex are guest speakers at an "Accessibility in Cinema" class at DePaul University. Listen in!
Questions? Email us at darkroomfilmcast@gmail.com
Search for Audio Description availability for any title on the American Council for the Blind's Website!
Find transcripts of our episodes on our hosting site, Buzzsprout!
Subscribe to our YouTube Channel!
Support us on Patreon!
Follow us on Instagram!
Find us on Facebook!
Lee Pugsley
Happy summer everyone! Welcome back to Episode Nine of The Dark Room, where two blind cinephiles illuminate the sighted. I'm Lee Pugsley.
Alex Howard
I'm Alex Howard.
Lee Pugsley
And we are your two legally blind hosts of this podcast for film lovers of all abilities.
Alex Howard
We're doing a little bit of a departure from our normal episodes. We had the opportunity to be guest speakers at a class at DePaul University. Our friend Matt Lauterbach is teaching a class on film accessibility. And he invited us to be guest speakers for the audio description portion.
Lee Pugsley
Me and Alex had a really good time interacting with the students. And we thought the conversation was very enlightening and insightful. And it was just great to kind of share our perspective and to hear what other students have learned about audio description. And because we thought this conversation was a productive one, we wanted to share with you guys, the listeners, and hope that you might glean something from it as well.
[Addressing the students] First of all, we just think it's awesome that you guys have an interest in accessibility and film. You know, me and Alex feel like it's very important. So before we dive into things further, we'll just go ahead and give a brief introduction on ourselves and a little bit of our background. Just kind of what made us interested in accessibility in cinema, specifically with audio description. And Alex, I'll pass it to you first to introduce yourself and just talk a little bit about maybe your background, your vision, and just the way that you interact with media and a little bit of your journey with that.
Alex Howard
Yeah, I just -- I've always loved the stories that movies tell. And so I think as I graduated college, my eyesight kind of got worse. And my eyesight became my primary disability. Whereas before, it was my fine motor skills. I think around 2018 or 2019, like I knew about audio description, but that's when I really started using it. Even though I worked at a movie theater, I wasn't really using it. I felt like, you know, I was kind of in the denial, like I didn't really need it. And then I can't even remember what kind of triggered it. On the episode we released today, I had my old roommate on that I was living with when I really started using it. And he thinks it was Mandalorian, when that came out. I think I really started realizing how great audio description was and started using it more then. And now I really can't watch anything without it.
Lee Pugsley
Nice. I'll give a brief introduction of myself. My name is Lee. I was born with the eye condition glaucoma. And over time, my vision has decreased. So when I was younger, I had vision in both eyes and pretty decent vision. But during college, I lost the vision in my right eye. Right after I graduated college, I lost the vision in my -- or lost a little bit more of the vision of my left. So I only have a percentage of vision in my left eye, not full percent at all. And I graduated from college with a degree in theater. So I'm a director, writer and actor here in Los Angeles. I dabble in both the theater world as well as the film and TV world. And you know, when projects come my way, I'll take them. So in terms of audio description, I have a very similar journey to Alex, where, up until about 2018. I never used audio description, even though it would have been very helpful earlier on in my journey with taking in movies and absorbing the fullness of what they have to offer. But I always thought it would be annoying to have a little voice in your ear telling you what's going on when I'd rather just like take in the environment of the movie without being interrupted. And then once I transitioned over, I realized how helpful it was. I realized how much of a movie or TV show I was missing without having the audio description there. And since then, I've never gone back. So yeah, that's a little bit of background on me. And to start off with, me and Alex feel that, you know the best kind of learning is interactive, and it happens through dialogue and conversation. So instead of you know, me and Alex just sitting here for an hour and you guys listening to us talk, we wanted to open up the floor to you guys first of all to ask questions about audio description or accessibility in cinema, the current state of it, whatever questions you may have. There's no question that's off limits. And feel free to ask away. And then we'll take some questions for a little bit and see what we can learn and discover together through that. And then we'll move on to a few other things that we have planned for the day. So I know Matt had sent me and Alex some questions that you guys had given us already. We can refer to those. But also, if you had sent out a question, feel free to ask it again here.
Izzy
I can get started. This is Izzy. I think I emailed this question to the two of you. But it was about the storytelling aspect of movies, which is, you know, why we go to the movies is to be told a story and to be brought into the narrative. So for the two of you, how do you think that audio description can best support that narrative, especially in genres, like horror films, or movie musicals, that rely very heavily on visuals, or might have quite a lot of musical numbers and songs that would compete with space for the audio description?
Alex Howard
So you're, you're asking how the audio description helps understand the story, right? In horror and music, or just like, how it describes things that are very visual?
Izzy
Well kind of both so, you know, if we were working on a team that were was writing an audio description, track, you know, how can we best alighn in the experience of watching with AD and watching without AD so that, you know, the scares happen at the same time, or you can still enjoy the music, um but get a description of, you know, a dance number or something like that?
Alex Howard
Yeah, so I think for horror, it's a little hard. I'll speak to horror and I'll let Lee speak to the musical. But for horror it's a little harder, because I know sometimes there's a screen or there's, you know, something, somebody yells something, you know, you always want to leave the dialogue so we can hear it. And so it's a little difficult to describe things. But I think if you can do it right on, I think we're gonna show a clip from The Invisible Man in a few minutes, where it literally is right on the jumpscare. But I know that's kind of rare. So I think, for me, at least, I like it just afterwards, rather than just before, if possible, so that, you know, it doesn't necessarily spoil it if I'm watching with other people. Because I think it makes me self conscious personally, if I'm watching with people that usually aren't, or are sighted, and the scare is ruined, I almost feel bad that their experience has been compromised for mine. But I also think for something like, I don't know if you guys listen, I just watched Skinamarink this last couple of weeks, which is an experimental horror movie. And there's almost no dialogue in the whole movie. And it's very, it's shot, like very grainy. So it's supposed to be like, like a kid walking around a house, and the doors disappear in the house, you're not really supposed to know what you're looking at. And so it was frustrating for me, because I was like, Okay, I don't know, I doubt my vision regularly. So, you know, this is supposed to make people not know, but I'm like, I REALLY don't know if this is my eyesight, or if it's the movie. And so the audio description was really vital in that, in telling me what was on screen. So yeah, I think as long as you just do the most important things, if there's something that is a little extra in your time, go for it. But you also want to let the movie breathe a little bit. So you don't want wall to wall audio description and dialogue, you need some time to like... You know, silence builds tension, too. So you need some silence. I think A Quiet Place is another good one to turn to, where there is room for description, but they don't use it all because the movie is supposed to be quiet a lot of the time. So yeah.
Izzy
Thank you.
Alex Howard
Yeah.
Lee Pugsley
And too, I'll follow up with that, too, and to touch on some of the things that Alex was talking about. It can be tricky. And I -- you guys might be, some of you guys may encounter this, as you're writing your own audio description scripts. It can be tricky sometimes to know if you should describe something, some piece of action, whether it's a jumpscare, or an action, a moment of action where like someone gets shot, you know. Like do you describe it before it happens or after it happens? And I think that you have to look at the things, the questions I think that are really good to ask is like, "What's going to provide the maximum effect for the viewer?" Meaning if we were to describe a jumpscare before it happens, that may not be as effective as letting the viewer feel the tension. Having that scare happen and then even though, you know, we may not know what that is in that exact second, right after you describe what just happened, or, you know, a guy getting shot, you know, sometimes it can be described before, sometimes it's described after. And that's probably more like, you know, either way, it's probably okay. In that scenario, you know, like, either way works. It also just depends, too, on how much dialogue or how much action is after the jumpscare, or the piece of action. You know, the piece of action to decide, is it, "Do I have time to describe more after? Or is there a lot of stuff happening that I just have to move on?" So it's best to describe this moment before it happens, rather than after it happens. And that's one of those things that I'm sure is a challenge in trying to figure out what, how to craft a good audio description script. But yeah, Izzy, in answer to, to comment on your question about the musical genre. That one is really interesting. Because so much of the musical, obviously, a musical is about the visuals. And, but it's also about the music, too. So when you're describing visuals in a musical genre, that's a little more tricky, because you have to find that balance between "How do we let the score play maybe during a dance break, or during some of the instrumental moments that are happening." So it's not just audio description all the time, but still letting the audience, the viewer know what's exactly happening. And we'll -- I do have a clip from a musical later that I'll show a good example of how I think that's done. But sometimes, you know, they'll just say, you know, people dance. And, you know, that doesn't really tell me much specifically about like, what are they doing? Are they like, you know, moving their arms up and down? Are they spreading them out? Are they doing like kicks? Are they doing jumps? So, for musicals, especially with choreography, the more that you can describe specifically what the range of motion is that the dancers or you know, characters are doing during a dance number, the more it helps me feel like I get a full experience of watching a musical movie. But then it is also a -- the challenge that comes with musical movies, sometimes especially a fully sung through movie musical, like, Les Misérables for example, from 2012 with Hugh Jackman, is like -- that movie's entirely sung. So sometimes they'll just be like, they'll just have a very quick snippet in there, because there's not a lot of instrumental break. So they'll be like, you know, "Jean crosses that crosses the street," you know, and it's just like, super quick, they have like two seconds to say something, you know. And that's a really interesting movie to watch in terms of musical movie audio description, because there's not big dance breaks. And there's not a lot of extra space to throw in audio description. So they have to be very strategic in how they wrote that script. And I'm sure it took them a little bit of time to, you know, perfect it to a place where it wouldn't, you know -- where you'd find that balance. A lot of it with the audio description is like a balancing act, as pointing back to what Alex was saying.
Alex Howard
So Lee, out curiosity, do they say, you know, during the famous Anne Hathaway song, do they say "She's crying"? Or do they leave that because you can hear it? In her voice. Do you know?
Lee Pugsley
You know, I don't remember completely. Um, I think, you know, they say something. I think they say like, they'll say, like, you know, like, "Tears run down her cheek," but it's like, super fast, you know? Yeah. So they do, they do mention that now that I'm thinking about it. But it's very quick.
Alex Howard
And then I know for -- Lee was mentioning it too. It might be a little... Because Lee and I are into these genres more, you know, than the average movie goer. But I know Lee was saying he wants the choreography described a lot more. And I think for me, I want the gore, the like... Really. Like telling me what's happening. You know, like, I can't experience the gore like most people can and a lot of people are like, "Oh, that's a great kill." And I'm like, I want to know, like, how did it happen? I know it's like, kind of a sick thing to want as like a horror fan, but it's like "No, like, tell me." And I think Lee is kind of in the same boat with like choreography. Like, I think the average movie goer might be fine with, you know, maybe a little bit more than "They're dancing." But I think Lee, you want a little bit more detail, like really, as a musical and play director, you want to know what the choreography is, right?
Lee Pugsley
Exactly. Yeah. And taking these principles to the things we're talking about, beyond just the horror or musical genres. Well, you know, just the more specific that an audio describer or an audio description script can be for any genre, the more that the blind or low vision viewer is going to feel that they have, um... That they are able to take in the movie fully and they're not missing, you know, they're not behind the curve. With, you know, they're not behind the curve of other viewers.
Alex Howard
Yeah, the more vivid of that picture, you can paint the better. But it's like you want to do it in as few words as possible.
Lee Pugsley
And just to, for some background of our experience with audio description. We -- well I guess, correct me if I'm wrong Alex, but I don't believe me and Alex have -- I've never written an audio description script. And I don't -- Have you written one, Alex?
Alex Howard
No, we are purely consumers. I guess we've been watching it consistently for what, five years for me?
Lee Pugsley
Yeah, it's about the same for me as well.
Alex Howard
Yeah.
Lee Pugsley
So it's like, you know, we're throwing out these principles, and, you know, ideas and concepts that work, that we know work for us, to make cinema more accessible. But we have not gone through this process ourselves. So I acknowledge that there is, you know, it's easy to just say, Oh, do this, right, do it this way, do it that way. But I'm sure it's different when, you know, you're actually the one writing the audio description script as well.
Alex Howard
I did do quality control one time for a project. And I can admit, I did not do a good job. Because I was trying to describe everything. And so I felt like I needed to give them notes. Basically, quality control is, they'll send you -- usually it's the script, and you have to read the script while the content is playing. But since I couldn't read the script, they had the audio description pretty much done with the voiceover, but they sent me the file for notes. And so I was giving them pages of notes, saying what they missed, but I wasn't taking into account oh, we need space to let it breathe. And so they didn't hit me up again after, because I, you know, didn't take that into account. But looking back now I'm like, Man, I really, you know, needed to give it room to breathe to make sense.
Izzy
Thank you. That was very helpful.
Lee Pugsley
Thank you for the question.
Alex Howard
Yeah. No, thanks for the question.
Matt Lauterbach
Yeah, and Lee and Alex, I thought it might be a good time to, since you just talked about the horror and musical genres, would now be a good time to share those clips?
Lee Pugsley
Yeah, that would be great. Yeah, let's do it.
Alex Howard
Yeah.
Matt Lauterbach
Cool. So I can queue them up and you just tell me whose clip you want to start with?
Lee Pugsley
Um, yeah, let's start. Um, Alex are you cool starting with Invisible Man?
Alex Howard
Yeah, sure.
Matt Lauterbach
All right, here we go.
Audio Description Narrator
She picks up the light again and shines its beam around the dusty space. Several paint cans sit beside her. She turns and looks behind her.
SOUND
[Rustling]
Audio Description Narrator
Grabbing the phone, she makes a call.
SOUND
[Dialing and then ring tone. Nearby, a phone vibrates.]
Audio Description Narrator
The screen on a cell phone at the other end of the attic starts to glow. Cecilia shines her light on it and hangs up.
SOUND
[Rustling]
Audio Description Narrator
Holding the flashlight in one hand, she crawls toward the cell phone on the floor.
SOUND
[Rustling continues]
Audio Description Narrator
The pale blonde picks it up from beside a set of keys. Tapping the screen, she brings up a photo of herself lying asleep in Sydney's bed. She swipes through more pictures of her and Sydney slumbering, and her brow furrows.
SOUND
[Soft clunk]
Audio Description Narrator
Setting aside the phone, she finds a baggie containing the large chef's knife that moved off the counter when the bacon and eggs burned. She takes the blade from the bag and regards it with a puzzled expression.
SOUND
[Soft breathing]
Audio Description Narrator
The portfolio catches her eye and Cecilia flips through her missing architectural designs.
SOUND
[Subtle, creepy music]
Audio Description Narrator
A creeping view approaches her from behind. With a distressed expression, she glances around
SOUND
[Cell phone vibrates]
Audio Description Narrator
The cell phone shows a text in all caps from an unknown number: "Surprise."
SOUND
[Rustling in the distance]
Audio Description Narrator
Startling, Cecelia turns and shines her flashlight across the room. She picks up the chef's knife. The pale blonde keeps the blade in one hand and the flashlight and cordless phone in the other as she crawls forward.
SOUND
[Floorboards creaking]
Audio Description Narrator
She inches toward the open hatch in the floor. Reaching the opening, she sets the flashlight and phone aside. Gripping the edges of the hatch, Cecilia slowly leans forward and peers down toward the hallway below. A view from the bottom of the ladder shows her pale face framed by the opening. She dumps a can of white paint down through it.
SOUND
[Shocking musical sting]
Audio Description Narrator
The paint spreads over an invisible human shaped figure standing at the top of the ladder, and she recoils. Cowering on the floor of the dark attic, Cecilia gradually moves forward. She looks down through the hatch once more and finds the paint covered invisible man gone and the ladder knocked over.
Alex Howard
Yeah, so you can see that they, um, they let it go, like the sound go up when the scare happened, and then they'll tell you what it was, but a lot of the things they were saying was happening either as it was happening or just after. I think the only thing that happened before was the picture on the phone.
Lee Pugsley
Um I'm curious to know from anyone in class too, like after watching this clip, if you... What observations you guys picked up on on how the audio description enhanced, you know, enhances the viewing experience for this clip. Or if you guys have any other just observations about the clip in general.
Conor
This is Conor. I thought it was interesting how they described a certain camera move. They described the, like, "The view creeps up behind her." And I thought that that was a really effective way of describing just the movement of the camera and how it related to what was happening in the scene
Alex Howard
And it also gave me like, as a visually impaired viewer, it almost gave me like, "Oh Is there someone behind her?"
Lee Pugsley
And even too, to your point, Conor, too. Like the choice of language they use. Like, "The view creeps up," they could have said "The view moves up." But because it's like, you know, a horror film, I think using the word creeps up instead of like moves up or pans up, you know that just even adds to the viewer's experience of "Hey, we're in a horror film." So really good. Yeah, really good observation.
Julia
I've never watched this movie but I find it actually helpful even for me, with full vision. I, like, to talk about the cell phone was at the end of a tunnel and then also when she's spilled a white paint. I mean, I wouldn't know there was a human figure, you know, without audio description, actually. I thought this was a very... This clip is very helpful for me to learn how to write audio description more creatively. Yeah, thank you.
Alex Howard
Yeah, yeah, thank you. I completely agree with that too. Yeah, I remember seeing in theaters and I was like, "Yeah, I would have never known it was a human figure either if it didn't..." Because I think that's the first time we, if I remember right, that's the first time that we see the invisible man like, like not invisible obviously. And so I think that was a big moment in the movie.
Adriana
Hi, this is Adriana. I just wanted to comment that I think I find it interesting that they are switching names. Because it was like we're given what was needed. But the choice to use "the pale blonde" is interesting to me, because like, is she pale because of fear? Like is she scared? Or is it pale blonde as a light blonde color hair? That's like an interesting phrasing to be using when it comes to describing a human person.
Alex Howard
Yeah, I think um, not to speak for the writers, but I think they, you know, if they keep using the same description, it would get repetitive. So I think that they come up with different things. But then also I've noticed in description, even sometimes in movies, it might be a twist to reveal later what their name is. So sometimes they won't -- Well, actually, a lot of the time, they won't describe the person by their name until it's revealed in the actual movie. So they'll keep saying the blonde, the Father, the Father, the Father, and then once they say the name, then they'll, you know, say what it is, from then on in the movie,
Izzy
Actually, but this is Izzy, again. I have a question about that, because I was watching The Diplomat on Netflix with audio description, because it was moving really fast. And I really needed the audio description to help me remember what was going on, because I couldn't follow it. But one thing I've watched, you know, probably four or five episodes, until they named some of the secondary characters because they just happen to not be called by name until then. But it wasn't, it wasn't like a horror film or something where that information would have been a spoiler or revealed anything. You know, like they could have called -- I forget their names now, because I'm terrible at remembering names. But like, they could have called Bob "Bob." He was just Bob, they just kept calling him you know, like "the guy with brown hair." And not even you know, "the assistant to the director" or something that would have helped me remember, like, why Bob was in those scenes. So I was wondering what, how you two feel about, especially series that just because of time, they might not name somebody until episode four or five in a season. But they choose not to name them in the audio description, because they haven't been named in the dialogue, even if it's not, you know, story wise, important to withhold that name.
Alex Howard
I'm not sure. Like, I feel like -- I don't want to speak for the people who wrote it. But I know with series, maybe sometimes they don't show them the full series right off the bat. Was this a Netflix Original? Or was it?
Lee Pugsley
It's on Netflix. Yeah.
Alex Howard
Okay. So I'm assuming they had all them done at that point? I don't know why. Yeah, I don't know why they waited. But I know with AD a lot of times, it does help me to have, you know, I'm really bad at remembering names too. Like, Little Women or Women Talking or something like that. The Woman King like, where it's a big cast. Oceans 11, like, the character names are really important. And they're, you know, doing a lot of things. And, you know, Bob looks like Joe and they're doing very, very different things. And so the character names really help. And I feel like, I mean, for me personally, imagining calling him "the man with brown hair," and then all of a sudden calling him "Bob," would kind of throw me off. What do you think Lee?
Lee Pugsley
This is total speculation, but -- Well, first, to cut to the chase first, and then I'll backtrack. I would prefer that as soon as they're able to introduce a character by name, that the audio description script would do that rather than waiting for however long. In movies, it's a little easier like Alex was saying, because as soon as the character's name is mentioned on screen, then they'll start referring to them by their name. But in TV shows sometimes I wonder if they do, if they wait because it's like, they don't want to take focus away from the main character storylines. And so they're like "Okay, let's just call these characters by name so that the viewer is able to follow the primary character storylines" and then because the secondary characters are the secondary characters, they're not as crucial so we can wait to introduce them by name until a few episodes in." That being said, is that my preferred way of doing it? No. I would much rather prefer that they call them by name earlier on, because once you have the name, it's a lot easier to follow these character's journeys. And like Alex was saying, to kind of separate out like who the characters are. Especially yeah, if there are a lot of characters. So very... Yeah, very good question. And that's I guess how I feel about it as well.
Alex Howard
And then we even can get into like Back to the Future and things. I think -- I haven't watched Back to the Future with audio description, but I would imagine they do like, "future Marty", "past Marty", you know, like, you can have different versions of characters too.
Lee Pugsley
If there are no more questions, then Matt, we can move on to the Mary Poppins Returns clip. For the clip we're about to watch, this is from Mary Poppins Returns. And it is basically during a dance break of one of the musical numbers. So I think this is a great example of audio description in a musical. So we'll watch it and then we can dissect it from there.
Alex Howard
And Lee, is this a musical that you knew before? Or is this an original musical?
Lee Pugsley
That's a great question. So this I mean, this movie came out in 2019. And it was the sequel to Mary Poppins. And so I had no prior knowledge of this musical, but that's a great question. Because oftentimes, when there's musical movie adaptations, I usually -- I'm a theater nerd as well. So I'm a movie buff and a theater nerd, so I usually have been like "Oh, I like have the soundtrack memorized" or have seen the show live a bunch. So the audio description, or like you know, if I'm missing out on things, I'll just fill them in within, like, what's in my like memory bank and what I know about a show. So when there is a movie musical that I don't know anything about, that's definitely a lot different. And audio description becomes that much more imperative to my enjoyment.
Matt Lauterbach
Great, all right, shall I play it?
Lee Pugsley
Yeah, go for it.
Matt Lauterbach
All right, here we go.
Audio Description Narrator
He pushes aside clumps of dangling roots, and up ahead of him sees leeries like himself hanging on to streetlamps, lighting them one by one.
SOUND
[Music builds]
Audio Description Narrator
They adopt poses, extend their back legs, tip their caps, and watched by the Banks children, perform a vigorous dance routine halfway up the lampposts, swinging around and kicking up their legs.
SOUND
[Music swells]
Audio Description Narrator
The children find a seat to watch the performance. The leeries high kick, jump to the ground, spin their raised arms, grip the lampposts with one hand, stretching their bodies outwards. They're holding on with both hands, one above the other. They extend their legs sideways in a scissor action and salute.
Leeries
Oy!
Audio Description Narrator
Jack joins in with the men, all of them, like him, wearing wool jackets and trousers with a variety of shirts, scarves and tank tops. Some wear flat caps, others peaked caps, as they salute and pump their arms and legs. Some swing down from a wrought iron railing to where Jack and the other leeries are swinging on lampposts. Three perform several flips in a row, winning applause from Mary Poppins. Others dive into an athletic forward roll. Jack and others, perching on the lamppost basis, kick out in front of them, sit, stand and perch again, pump their arms across their chests and jump up. Others grab their ladders and balance on the lower rungs as if they were on stilts. They dance around the ladders, climb all the way up them and let them sink to the ground, as others leap onto lampposts. A couple of men do backflips and Jack and the others dance and swing around the lampposts, doffing their caps as they swing. One cheery fellow with a striped top grins at the children.
Striped Top Dancer
Come along, join us in a bit of kick and prance!
SOUND
[Clip ends]
Alex Howard
That's really interesting. I've actually never seen that movie.
Lee Pugsley
I personally recommend it. So yeah, so once again, I'm curious to know from any of you guys in class, any observations you had about the audio description in this clip?
Julia
Hi, it's Julia speaking, Julia Huang. And well, first of all, I think it's so, [chuckling] it's so great. And I noticed two things. One is that they particularly picked someone with a British accent, and kind of to fill in the cultural background of this film. And the second is, I guess, a little description, the script writer's really good at choreography. I mean, describing each and every dance, you know, gesture and the movement and precisely and quite briefly, you know, could sync with the time. And there's one part I noticed a little, but since we're only watching a clip, I never, I haven't watched the movie yet. I just am, there's somewhere that describes something, someone in red, someone in what caps? That's, um -- when I was doing the audio description writing the script. I was wondering, this is also my question. I was wondering how much detail you wanted to go into about, sort of, kind of a background of visual effects. Like the the part when we watch, they didn't talk about the historical background. This is definitely not modern, right. And this is not in, say, now, like the setting in the Invisible Man. And how much detail you go into about what they wear to help the audience understand, you know, what kind of a setting and styles of the visual effects? Thank you.
Lee Pugsley
That's a, that's a fantastic question. And what I would say to that, and Alex, I'll let you comment on this as well, is they... So I believe, and I can't remember, for sure: But oftentimes, in movies, at the beginning of the movie, they'll be like, you know, "In 19th century London," or in you know, "20th century France" or... You know, or sometimes, you know, in a period piece, there will be a year on it, or something, or, you know, a year on it as well. That being said, they don't always tell you like, what, you know, where it's supposed to take place, sometimes I guess you just have to pick up on like, context clues, and like the time of it and everything. But I do think that when there's an appropriate time for it, if you are able to detail some of the costuming, even the colors, as well as the styles, that is very, you know, that is very helpful, Like in this one, you know, they're talking about, like, you know, in this clip, it's like flat caps, and other, you know, hats. The way that they're describing the clothing, even in this clip, it makes me realize, "Okay, we're probably not going to be in present day America, where you're just walking down the streets of New York," because of the description of the clothing. So anytime you're able to fill in more details that way, or if you're in like a period piece, like Shakespeare in Love, let's say. I've never watched that movie without description, you know, if you're able to be like, "She walks along in her corset," you know, "Her gown flows to the ground," that would tell me, "Okay, like, this is probably a period piece as well, because the way that they describe the gown, or the way that they describe what she's wearing cues me into the time period to some degree." But yeah, colors and specifics of clothing can be very helpful. But also, there's that balance, because I don't think it's necessary to like describe every little bit of clothing on every single person, because you just practically don't have time for that. But the more specificity, the better as far as I'm concerned. Alex, what do you think?
Alex Howard
Yeah, I think so once again, this is clearly from a consumer standpoint, speculating, but I think the reason they described it is because the clothing, the red, the hats, and like, it all played into the dance number, and the visuals of what was going on with the dance number. And I don't think necessarily, if it's something like the Invisible Man, or A Quiet Place, or something like you know, more modern, yes, it would be helpful to know what they're wearing, but it's not necessary. So I think it doesn't have to do, have an impact on the visual experience for the audience, then I think they, if they don't need to, they usually just let it breathe. Because I think it is like, while knowing is always better, if it's going to mean wall to wall description, I'd rather have some room to room to breathe than not. Would you agree, Lee?
Lee Pugsley
Yeah, I would totally agree with that. I guess to like, kind of sum up what Alex was saying -- that probably I should have just been more succinct to begin with -- is if the color or the costume is something that helps enhance the world, and if you see that there was a purposeful reason for them to use these colors or these costumes, then it's probably worth describing. Like, once again, going back to what Alex was saying in this movie, since it is a musical, and musicals are bright, flashy and colorful, you know... And with, you know, these costumes with like the lamplighters and stuff, you know, it does help create a more vivid picture of just kind of like, the panache of the visual spectacle of what's happening. But you know, once again, it's not -- it may not always be necessary. You are right, Alex, about that.
Alex Howard
Especially for me, like -- I just recently started using a white cane. I'm legally blind in one eye, I guess legally blind, like all together, but that clip specifically was very gray. And so when they said "red," I mean that was helpful for me because I couldn't tell that was red. So I mean, I did appreciate the color description in that one. For Lee, I think the reason I brought up "Have you seen this musical before like you watched the movie," I think, if I were you going in for a musical I've seen, I would have an expectation of what would be described and how it would come out. And so like, for you going in, if it's a musical you know, are you thinking like, "Oh, they didn't describe that" or like, there are things that are missing? And then for musical that's fresh that you know nothing about, are you a little easier on critiquing the description? Since you don't know it as well?
Lee Pugsley
Yeah, when I'm -- if it's a musical that I don't know, I'm definitely easier on taking it in and critiquing because I'm like, "I don't know what I'm supposed to know." So whatever they want to give me, I'll take it in as new information. If it's a musical movie that I know, then I will go into it thinking, you know, I'll go into it and have expectations of "Okay, they should describe this." And yeah, you're right on both of those. And then, one other point about, you know, just like color and costumes and other things used purposefully. I don't know if these movies are described, I've not watched them with audio description, but any movie by Baz Luhrmann or I would say even say, oh, yeah, any movie by Baz Lurhmann like Romeo and Juliet Moulen Rouge, Elvis, all of those... Baz Luhrmann uses color, and he uses costumes, oftentimes, in a very symbolic way. Colors represent something that's purposeful to his narrative. And I don't know if those movies -- Well, I know Elvis is described, but it would be worth watching part of a Baz Luhrmann film, to see how they describe things because everything about the style says something about his directorial vision. And that does help paint a full picture. And then one other comment I wanted to make really quick is, with the audio describer's voice, about them being a British audio describer, that is something to consider as well, when you're describing, when people describe, you know, they always try to pick people that are fitting of the type of movie that it is. So for example, like, Harry Potter, I know has British audio describers. And, you know, but if you're doing like, let's say, Barbie, you're probably not going to have a gruff guy be like, [in a growling voice] "Barbie walks across the street, she gets in a car." You know, they'll probably have someone that has a little more like, lighthearted, upbeat demeanor to them. So the voice of an audio describer really can impact the viewing experience as well. Um, do you have any thoughts on that, Alex?
Alex Howard
Yeah, I think for the Baz Luhrmann thing, I thought that was funny because yeah, Moulin Rouge is a movie I've tried to watch and turned off, because it's soooo visual. And sooo like, in your face. And I should look into watching audio description, I didn't think about that. Yeah, same with Romeo and Juliet. I'm like, Oh, my God. I almost feel like that'd be overwhelming. But I need to look into that now. But yeah, I think the voice is very telling my friend Nicole, who, I know Izzy, one of the questions you emailed us was, "Who would we like to interview on the podcast?" My friend Nicol Zanzarella ends who does the audio description for the Mandalorian and a lot of the Star Wars stuff on Disney plus, her voice has a very, like sci fi sound to it. I don't even know how to describe it. But it just works with the sci fi nature of Star Wars. And there are certain voices that like, clearly go with other movies. With a movie with a lot of people of color, a lot of times you have a person of color being the narrator. So you want to be you know, have it kind of going along with the subject matter. Your Narrator goes hand in hand with that.
Lee Pugsley
Exactly.
Alex Howard
Lee, did you have someone that you aspire to? Or hope we interview? I mean, if I were picking just someone who I would like to interview be Denis Villeneuve, but obviously that is the director of Dune, but that is like way out there. So I didn't know if there was someone for you, Lee?
Lee Pugsley
Um, yeah, I mean, if there was someone for -- I mean, you know, I actually would love to talk with Baz Luhrmann because I like him as a director, but also just talking about like, yeah, I don't know -- It would just even be fun to talk about, like accessibility in his films and how to, you know, how, what he thinks about that and how he you know, just kind of the process of making a film of his accessible. Because there's a lot of moving parts, all the time and... And the audio describer for his movies, my hat's off to them, because that's a very tall order.
Alex Howard
Yeah, and for us like, it's funny because, well, if you listen to the end of TV shows or movies, they'll say "written by" and "narrated by". Actually, I've heard less of "written by" lately, but they'll at least say "narrated by". And so a lot of times you recognize the names. And so it's weird, because sometimes we'll see them on our Facebook forum or whatever. And it'll be almost like a starstruck kind of thing. We'll be like, "Oh my gosh, this person described this?! Like, I know them." We're also hoping to interview Liz Gutman at some point, you'll hear her name on a lot of the Netflix stuff.
Adriana
I actually have a question regarding the voice actors, I think, well, I'm an animation major. And some folks often, like within my field, are often having discussions about how they feel when popular music artists or like, or actors are voice acting for animated films. Does it throw you off when you recognize people's voices in other movies and other like, media forms? And now they're voicing character within a new world that was built in the film?
Alex Howard
Um, I don't think for me, I almost feel like I like it. Like, I know Nicol's voice so well now, because I like it so much, that I'll go into movie and it'll start, and two seconds in I'll be like, "Oh my god, this is Nicol." And I'll just like, and it'll almost like heighten my enjoyment, almost. Like I'll be looking forward to messaging her after, being like, "Hey, I really liked your, you know..." Or I'll really like, try and find something in the description that I liked, to tell her. Um, but yeah, I almost think it's cool to hear people from other things that I've watched describe something else. What do you think, Lee? That was your question, right?
Adriana
I don't think it's just about describing like, you know how currently they're using like actors to voice characters in animated films, like, live action... Like if you take -- the most recent like, with like with the Super Mario movie, with Chris Pratt voicing Mario, and people saying like, they just like, essentially, they just deposited his voice into this animated character that you recognize and you grew up with. And now he has a voice of Chris Chris Pratt now. In that situation, how do you feel?
Alex Howard
Yeah, I mean, I think Chris Pratt, I thought he did a pretty good job. I thought it sounded like Chris Pratt, but not too much like him. So like, I thought that was cool. But I don't know, I know, there are voice actors and that's what they do. And they are great at that job. At like, changing their voice a lot. But I do think it is cool to hear like Charlie Day, and you know, those iconic, I'm a big Charlie Day fan. So a lot of those iconic voices, hearing them in different animated movies are always fun.
Lee Pugsley
I agree with that, too. Like, I think that whether it's an audio describer that's familiar, or just a, you know, celebrity actor that you know from, you know, live action work. I think that when you hear a voice that you recognize, there's a nice familiarity about it. It's like coming home to like a friend or a really like, you know, an acquaintance that you like, and it feels familiar, it feels comfortable, it feels recognizable, but then it's also fun to see the versatility that these actors can have once they go from live action to voice work. So yeah, I personally, I personally enjoy it as well. Because of the sense of familiarity, especially for, you know, someone like me, who has low vision and relies a lot more on sound. Recognizable voices are a really comforting thing to me.
Adriana
Thank you.
Lee Pugsley
Alex and I were curious, we know that you guys have been working on writing your own audio description scripts. And I, you know, I'm curious to know, like, how has your process been, what are some of the challenges, or just, you know, learning curves that you've experienced when you guys have been writing these scripts?
Alex Howard
Another thing I'd like to mention about narrating or writing or the audio description process, it's always great when you can include someone who is low vision or blind in the process in some way. There's the -- what's the saying? "Nothing about us without us." So yeah, a lot of -- There's a big movement now to make blind people and low vision people involved in audio description. So I think anytime you can do that, too. Obviously, for your projects that might be very hard, but in professional projects, that's always very nice to see.
Lee Pugsley
Absolutely.
Adriana
I can go. Once against it's Adriana. I was talking to Matt earlier before the session began. My Independent Project is a part of my thesis film. I'm creating an animated bilingual film between a Wolf and Girl speaking in Spanish and English. So I am actually using, like, this opportunity to translate, to format the dialogue first. The English and Spanish dialogue first. And now I am actually translating it to be used for the subtitle portion. And I think one of the interesting things I found so far is that in certain cases of language is like, you use more words for one phrase and you use less of it, just, right now it's a word choice thing that we're going over. To make sure the message is being maintained when it comes to subtitles.
Alex Howard
Are you asking about reading the subtitles for?
Adriana
So I am... Yeah, so right now the format that I'm doing is, since this is more of a storybook, is almost like a storybook itself, where when the Wolf is speaking, he says his line and it's gonna be saying like, "bantered the Wolf" or "retorted the Girl" in a way. But I was wondering if you have any suggestions when it comes to like the timing, as well as if you have any recommendations of extending, like, visually, like, I know, some creative subtitles could also be distracting in some ways. And trying to time wise, fit them in during the scene as well.
Alex Howard
So I think at least for me, the timing of it doesn't matter too much. But I can't read really subtitles at all. So if it doesn't match with the words on screen, I think it's fine. But I think the big thing for me is you want a... Make sure the voice for the Wolf and the Girl and the Narration are different enough so that we know when the Wolf is speaking, when the Girl is speaking, when it's Describing. Because you don't want it to be like, "Oh, he's speaking," but it's description instead. If that makes sense.
Adriana
Yeah. Mhm.
Alex Howard
What do you think Lee?
Lee Pugsley
Yeah, no, I second all of that. The biggest thing for anytime that there's like subtitles in a film, which -- First of all, Adriana, I applaud your project, because it's very ambitious. And I think that's incredibly awesome that you're doing that because it incorporates, you know, animation and incorporates accessibility, you know, in terms of like, the subtitles and everything, as well as, you know, putting an audio description too.
Alex Howard
Yeah, I agree with him, that's awesome.
Lee Pugsley
So, you know, I wish you all the best with that. And I would love to see it when it's done. But yeah, the biggest thing about when you're describing subtitles, is just making sure that there's distinguishment in the voice between identifying like, which character is speaking. And that, even if you're not able to get like, you know, someone for every voice to like, you know, read the subtitles or whatever, you know, if the person that's doing the audio description, if it's you or someone else, you know, like for the Girl, a higher pitched voice, for the Wolf, lower pitched voice, you know. Something that just distinguishes the characters would be great.
Adriana
Thanks.
Julia
I wrote a question, I don't know. Should I just? This is Julio Huang speaking. And I wrote a question but I think I'm just gotta ask it. Well, first of all, I was born and raised in Taiwan and educated in the States. And also I'm an anthropologist, so I always, I always think about things comparatively. So my question was, what, you know, do you know what, which one is the best country, sort of, in terms of audio description or accessible cinema in the world? And what other languages sort of comparatively, I mean, so far, we only know everything about America, about the United States, and also English language. So I was wondering if you could... Have you ever come across this part, comparatively? And, and you can suggest, like know where to start thinking about it or looking for the resources? Thank you.
Alex Howard
I'm not sure about other countries, much. A lot of films are described in other countries that aren't described here that we don't have access to, unfortunately. But so I haven't heard any tracks from other countries other than America. But I would be very curious to know, especially in England, when they have other terms for other things that -- It'd be interesting to hear, like, the description be like "the tube," then some people maybe in America would be like, "Wait, what's that? Like, oh, it's the subway." So you know, I feel like that'd be kind of interesting. But I don't know like the quality of audio description, I can't speak for in other countries.
Lee Pugsley
Yeah, I guess all I would say in -- because I don't have a lot of information on that either -- but I do, I know that like other countries are starting to also become more accessible with audio description. And the most common one that I've read about or seen is Spanish audio description. I don't know if that's just in like, you know, Spanish speaking countries, or if it's kind of shifted other places. But the most common one I've seen that's non English is Spanish audio description. And what I've read about for other countries too.
Alex Howard
And I know if you're interested, Roma on Netflix has Spanish audio description. So...
Julia
Thank you. And one suggestion, I think you can interview, you can invite Matt to your podcast. [laughing]
Alex Howard
That'd be awesome. Yeah, yeah. I kind of figured this would be the guest spot for Matt. But I guess Matt's not really speaking in this. So yeah, we'd love to have Matt back.
Julia
His class is fantastic. Yes.
Alex Howard
Yeah. No, I love working with Matt. Honestly, like, I couldn't imagine Matt yelling at anyone. I don't know if that happened with you guys. But no, Matt is one of the nicest people.
Matt Lauterbach
It's a daily occurrence. I yell at them every every day. No, this is, this has been really fantastic. And since I know that we only have four minutes left. Lee and Alex, do you have any, any closing thoughts or advice for these students as they do engage in their audio description projects?
Alex Howard
Please, like if you have any questions, even if you don't want us to read it on the show, but you just are wondering something. Email us. Just say in the email, "This is a personal question." Anything. If you want us to read it on the show, we can do that too. I know, we didn't get too many of you. So please feel free to reach out. And the new episode, I think, would be very helpful for you guys, because we released one today with my friend Jamie and he is actually making description for his shorts. So he talks about writing description. And so it's very similar to what you guys are doing. So you might want to take a listen to that too.
Lee Pugsley
My final thoughts would be, as you guys are writing your audio description scripts, and you guys want any kind of feedback, or there's any way that me or Alex can be a resource to you or just be you know, kind of like someone to give you a little bit of feedback, feel free to reach out to us, you can email our podcast email. Matt has both of our personal contact info, and I give him permission to share that with any of you to be a resource. And if you have any other -- And once again, just remember that this is, all of these things about accessibility, it's a continual dialogue. The only way that we're going to learn from one another -- we have a lot to learn from you, as well -- is just keep the dialogue going. Please don't be afraid to ask questions. Please don't be afraid to have these conversations. And don't be shy about it. Because we learn, we get educated, by continually talking to people from all different walks of life, different backgrounds. And that's the most effective way of learning. So, me and Alex are more than happy to learn with you, even beyond this class and to keep dialogues and conversations flowing.
Alex Howard
Yeah, it's never a burden. I think accessibility in film, I'm really glad Matt is teaching this class, because it's very much like, uh, the more people we can educate, the more, you know, the more things will be accessible. So yes, any questions you guys have, it's never a burden or anything. Please reach out.
Lee Pugsley
And I commend you guys all for you know, just thank you guys for even caring enough about accessibility to take this class. That says a lot about who you guys are as creatives. And I really appreciate that.
Alex Howard
Yeah, no, thank you. I think the way to move accessibility forward is to start at the education level. So this is great.
Matt Lauterbach
Wonderful. Well, Lee and Alex, I'm just going to give a big plug and shout out to your podcast. You know, believe it or not, there are other podcasts out there about audio description. But what I love about your podcast is that you also nerd out about movies. And so you weave in stuff about the craft of audio description, but it's as part of your general conversation about your love of movies. And so I really encourage everyone in this class to follow that podcast, you know, listen to more than just the first episode. I'm continuing to really enjoy it. And believe it or not, I am now, through my company All Senses Go, we are transcribing the episodes. So the transcripts for The Dark Room are now being provided by yours truly.
Alex Howard
Yeah, no, thank you so much.
Lee Pugsley
Yeah, we're so grateful.
Matt Lauterbach
I just wanted to let everyone know that, you know, accessibility is very much a collaboration. And, you know, everyone's kind of helping each other out. And I'll just second what Alex and Lee said, which is, it's wonderful that you all are taking this course and care enough about it to keep showing up. So, thank you, Alex and Lee!
Alex Howard
Yeah, thank you, guys.
Matt Lauterbach
Thank you for having us.
Julia
Thank you.
Matt Lauterbach
Yeah. Can everyone come off mute and do a quick applause?
Students
[light clapping] Thank you. Thank you.
Alex Howard
Yeah, of course. Well have fun with your next speaker and the rest of your course.
Matt Lauterbach
Definitely will. Thanks a lot, guys.
Lee Pugsley
Hope you guys had as much fun listening to this conversation as we had being a part of it. Once again, we thought this was such an enriching conversation and hope you guys were able to take away something from it as well.
Alex Howard
Yeah, and if you have any further questions, anything to expand on, or anything that got triggered in your mind from listening to the class, if you want to email us, our email is DarkRoomFilmCast@gmail.com. And you can also follow us at DarkRoomFilmCast on Instagram. And if you live anywhere in the DePaul area, or go to DePaul University, we very much recommend Matt Lauterbach's class as well.
Lee Pugsley
Yeah, he's an awesome guy. And once again, we were so privileged to be a part of this. And with that, we will sign off.
Alex Howard
Yeah, we will see you guys in a couple of weeks.
Lee Pugsley
Thanks so much for listening. Have a great day.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai