Lee and Alex talk about the positives and negatives of at-home movie and TV viewing from a legally blind perspective. We discuss the accessibility of the major streaming services, devices, and physical media.
Questions? Email us at darkroomfilmcast@gmail.com
Search for Audio Description availability for any title on the American Council for the Blind's Website!
Find transcripts of our episodes on our hosting site, Buzzsprout!
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Lee and Alex talk about the positives and negatives of at-home movie and TV viewing from a legally blind perspective. We discuss the accessibility of the major streaming services, devices, and physical media.
Questions? Email us at darkroomfilmcast@gmail.com
Search for Audio Description availability for any title on the American Council for the Blind's Website!
Find transcripts of our episodes on our hosting site, Buzzsprout!
Subscribe to our YouTube Channel!
Support us on Patreon!
Follow us on Instagram!
Find us on Facebook!
Lee Pugsley
And the summer blockbuster season is in full swing. And welcome to The Dark Room where two blinds cinephiles illuminate the sighted. I'm Lee Pugsley.
Alex Howard
I'm Alex Howard.
Lee Pugsley
Once again, this is a podcast for film lovers of all abilities, hosted by me and Alex, two visually impaired guys. So Alex, what do we have on the agenda for today?
Alex Howard
So today, we're gonna talk about the blind 'at-home' movie experience. We did an episode on the blind theatrical experience. So now we're gonna go into how streaming works for us, how physical media, all that kind of stuff. And the difficulties and strength of streaming at home for blind people.
Lee Pugsley
And the reason that we wanted to talk about this today is because there's a lot of nuances for the home viewing experience for blind and low vision viewers. And we just wanted to enlighten you guys on some of the things that we go through as we view movies or TV shows at home. And as we begin our rankings, we do just want to acknowledge that audio description and accessibility has improved over the years from where it began. And we commend all the streaming services for their work in advancing accessibility forward. However, there are also some areas that accessibility could be improved. Such is the case with anything, so we just wanted to kind of give you a window into what that looks like.
Alex Howard
Yes. And this is mostly based on Lee and I's own experience. I did post in our audio description Facebook forum and got some feedback. So I'll be mentioning that here in there. But for the most part, this is our own experience. And we would love to hear from you if you have different experiences from us and have an opinion that is different from us, we always welcome that.
Lee Pugsley
Yeah, that's a really good point, Alex, that our rankings may be different than another person's rankings based on what we watch compared to what someone else watches that may or may not be as accessible. Let's go ahead and dive in. What do we have been the number one spot for most accessible streaming platform?
Alex Howard
So, like, we did our Disney episode last week, so I think it's obvious our number one is Disney Plus. From what I have experienced on Disney Plus, the only thing they don't have described so far is the Clone Wars animated series, which is very, it's like wall to wall dialogue. So it's very hard to describe that. I would love it if they put up AD for that. But I can see how it could be difficult. And also that was an acquisition for them, which, you know, they're really good about describing all of their stuff. But I think when it comes to acquisitions it's a little bit hit or miss. The other movies that I've found aren't described are the Indiana Jones movies, which they just put up on Disney Plus, and they don't have description on there. But Paramount has description on their service. So.
Lee Pugsley
And really quickly, for listeners who may not know what an acquisition is, can you explain that?
Alex Howard
So Disney acquired Fox and therefore Four Star Wars, but then there are other things called licensing, where Sony licenses out their properties to Netflix. So then Netflix pays them to have Seinfeld and to have, you know, most of the Sony theatrical movies go to Netflix after theatrical. So they have a deal with them to license out their property. So Sony is making money off their own property, whereas Disney, if they release Little Mermaid in theaters, and they put Little Mermaid up on Disney Plus, they're not making any money from a licensing fee on Disney Plus.
Lee Pugsley
Exactly. So basically, an acquisition is an acquired property that does not originally belong to the studio or company that is hosting it on their platform.
Alex Howard
Yes. So in my opinion, Disney Plus is very accessible. Like we said last episode, they went through almost their entire back catalogue and they've done description for them. It's very rare to find a title on Disney Plus, that doesn't have it. I think another great thing is they'll put description on trailers even for like, Indiana Jones which hasn't even come out yet, the new one. It's audio described, the trailer on Disney Plus. So that's very, very cool.
Lee Pugsley
In addition, I also want to shout out Disney for audio describing their live theatrical productions. They have a live proshot of Hamilton and Newsies on their platform, and they have audio described both of those theatrical performances. So I really love seeing that as a musical theater lover.
Alex Howard
That's awesome. I didn't even know about Newsies. That's cool.
Lee Pugsley
Yeah, it's really wonderful. And I wish that other platforms would jump in the game for describing live theatrical performances. So in our second place, we have Apple TV Plus, and everything I've watched on this platform has been audio described. So that's why it's so high up in our rankings. What I will say about Apple TV Plus though is, they mostly have original content. So they don't really have a big back catalog of movies. Or do they have any at all?
Alex Howard
I'm not sure. They might have some, but it's-- Usually they are marketing their streaming service with their originals like Ted Lasso and Severance. And what's the new one? With Jason Segel?
Lee Pugsley
Shrinking?
Alex Howard
Yes. And Shrinking. So yeah, I think they're mostly marketing themselves with their originals as opposed to other licensed properties. New trailers too. They also audio describe a lot of trailers on there. So Apple, I think they've been very accessible from their inception. I think one of their first series was See, right with Jason Momoa?
Lee Pugsley
Yes, it was.
Alex Howard
So yeah, they've been very accessibility conscious from the very beginning of their streaming service. So it's been really great. I think it carries over from, you know, a lot of blind people like to have iPhones because iPhones are very accessible as well.
Lee Pugsley
Apple has definitely been a leader in accessibility for all technology. So it makes sense that their Apple TV Plus platform would be very accessible. And I also want to highlight the fact that they describe trailers as well, which is very helpful too.
Alex Howard
Yeah, half the time, I mean, well, we can do a whole episode on trailers. But yeah, in the theater now it's kind of like, I don't even know what movie that was.
Lee Pugsley
I feel the exact same way. All right, so moving on, what's next on our list?
Alex Howard
So number three, for us is Netflix. Netflix does a great job of describing their original content, and actually do a pretty decent job of describing several of the other licensed properties and movies that aren't theirs on their platform. I think they are very good about describing movies that aren't theirs. But also, you know, there are some that they miss out on. Like Emily the Criminal, which came out last year, I saw it in theaters with description, and now it's on Netflix without description. So you know, there's a little hit and miss with them, but they're still very, very good. I just watched Kindergarten Cop with audio description. They have a lot of older movies that you wouldn't expect with AD and sometimes it's the only place with AD. I know they used to Back to the Future. They used to have Indiana Jones. They have a licensing agreement with Sony, like I mentioned where they put up, most of the Sony theatrical releases go on Netflix at some point. And most of those are described. They went through and did Seinfeld, they went through and did Friends. Like they're a very, very, very accessible company. But then they have their flaws too. Like we've talked about Roma. That doesn't, that only has Spanish audio description. They have you know, other things like that. The other day I went on a plane ride, and I downloaded some things for the plane. And it didn't have AD and I was like, it's so weird. Like, this is the Arnold documentary that just came out. And then I realized I needed to update the app. And then it gave me description again. So it's funny that, you know, little tweaks like that are kind of frustrating sometimes. But regardless, Netflix has very, very good accessibility
Lee Pugsley
And highlighting some of the strengths of Netflix to touch on what you said. A lot of the titles that they had that were back catalogue titles, whether movies or TV shows, years ago did not have audio description. And then they slowly started going back through those catalogs of media and audio describing them. So I applaud them for taking the time and caring enough to go back and do that. And then I think they really do well with accessibility when it comes to international content such as Squid Game or All Quiet on the Western Front. There, you're working with reading the subtitles as well as audio describing and for the majority of their international content, they do very well.
Alex Howard
So what was frustrating about Squid Game, I mean, at least with All Quiet on the Western Front it was right away. But with Squid Game, it took them a while to put up the description. Like I was waiting and waiting and waiting and then you know they finally did it and I could I was able to catch up with with the trend of Squid Game. But there's some other Korean series, I think there's a zombie one that's a big deal that doesn't have description. There are a couple of other things that you know, obviously, it's hit or miss and you can always improve your accessibility. But yeah, I mean at least Squid Game eventually got it. It's just, it would have been nice right away with the, how popular that got so quickly, you know.
Lee Pugsley
Yeah, I would agree with that. Next on the list is Prime Video, which for their original content, they do a very good job of describing TV and film. But their back catalogue is really a little hit or miss but I would say it's more so hit. How has your experience been with prime, Alex?
Alex Howard
Yeah, I mean, I haven't found much on there that wasn't described that I was looking for. I think when it comes to their own content, it's very rare to find anything that isn't described. I think, yeah, companies license movies to them. So I think that's where it's hit or miss. Sometimes it has it, sometimes it doesn't. More modern movies, obviously, are more likely to have it. But yeah, I think sometimes I'll just go through Prime and see what's new, and I'll be like, "Oh, this movie, you know, it's older." And I'll click on it. And you can see a little AD logo. And just going through and checking which stuff has it and what stuff doesn't.
Lee Pugsley
Yeah, and I don't know if they describe trailers. I haven't really watched any or very many trailers from Prime. Do you know if they do trailers?
Alex Howard
I'm not sure, actually.
Lee Pugsley
Hmm. That's something worth checking out.
Alex Howard
Yeah.
Lee Pugsley
All right. Well, moving down, what do we have next?
Alex Howard
So after Prime is Hulu, and it's kind of surprising that it's so far down. I think when Disney acquired Fox, they put a lot of the stuff on Hulu, like they made FX on Hulu. And you know, all the Fox shows kind of went on there. And I think that's where Hulu really is problematic. A lot of the FX on Hulu stuff is very hit or miss. Like Dave has audio description. But then something like Y the Last Man only had it for some episodes. And then you know, other shows don't have it at all. So I think even though they're not Hulu originals, like technically, I feel like it'd be great if they treated all of the FX stuff as if it was a Hulu original. Because like with all of these companies, all of the original content, stuff made for Peacock, stuff made for Hulu, most of that stuff's described. But then when you get into the other things is where the waters become a little more muddy.
Lee Pugsley
I agree with you on all of that. And one of the things that I will say that is very frustrating with Hulu is for any of their acquired movies or TV shows, the majority of the time they don't have audio description. On occasion, I'm surprised and I'll find one or two that do. But the frustrating part about that is we know that audio description tracks, especially for the movies, exists somewhere. And there may even be movies that you know, we have watched with audio description on another platform or in the theater. And it never is accompanied by an audio description track on Hulu. So that's a little aggravating at times.
Alex Howard
How, do you go to Hulu like to watch movies?
Lee Pugsley
I don't go to Hulu a lot now to watch movies, just because of everything I just mentioned. The only time I will watch a movie on Hulu is if it's a movie I really wanted to see and it's the only place that's available. And more often than not, I watch it without audio description. What about you?
Alex Howard
No, I don't, I usually don't go to Hulu for movies. I'll watch some TV on there, usually Dave or something from FX because I used to love FX as a network. But yeah, no, my go to for movies is usually Netflix or HBO or Prime, you know, things like that? .
Lee Pugsley
Sure. I think that this is pretty much a blanket statement for any of the streaming services that has original content, that all the original content or majority of original content is described, and Max is no exception. All of their current shows are described and their current movies. But what I do appreciate about them as they went back and described things like Game of Thrones and some of their older shows and some of their older movies -- it's definitely not comprehensive with the audio description that they have right now -- but it is a fairly decent quotient of material that they have described at the moment. And when HBO Max first started out, they had nothing audio described. So it's been very nice to see the improvements and the strides they've made towards making things more accessible. And I do commend them for the work that they're doing and hope that it continues.
Alex Howard
Yeah, I think it was very frustrating in the beginning when they didn't have description at all. And I think it was in 2020 or 2021 that they, I think it was like a March 2021 date if I remember, that day decided that they're going to put description on things. And it was right around when the Snyder cut was dropping. And so I was very excited to watch the Zack Snyder's Justice League with audio description. And you know, they've gotten a lot better now that they've started describing things, but you're right, it's very... Things that aren't HBO originals are very, like hit or miss if it's gonna have it or not, especially all of the licensed movies. Even the Warner Brothers back catalogue, sometimes it's described, sometimes it's not, you know. I don't even know, is Sopranos or anything like that described? Sopranos or Six Feet Under, their older series?
Lee Pugsley
I have heard somewhere that those shows are audio described, but I have not watched them. So I know that they have done a good job of going back and describing their older shows. So I wouldn't be surprised if those ones were described now.
Alex Howard
Yeah. So next one is Paramount Plus. Paramount Plus original content, obviously, just like everything else, is described. But then, you know, the Paramount back catalogue is where we get more problematic. Beyond that, someone in the Facebook group was saying that Dungeons and Dragons, which just came out this year and up on Paramount Plus recently, didn't have AD, and I checked last night, and it did not, which I'm shocked about because it had it in the theater. So like, the track's done, it's just sitting somewhere. They didn't think to upload it with the movie. I think overall, the originals on Paramount Plus are good. The back catalogue, they've actually done a semi decent job. Like, the Indiana Jones movies are described, the Mission Impossible movies are described. It's funny that Indiana Jones has description on Paramount, but not on Disney Plus. So I'm like, What's the licensing thing with that? Paramount is not a bad place to find things that are described.
Lee Pugsley
It is extremely frustrating, though, going back to the Dungeons and Dragons example that you gave, when there is a movie from a studio, that puts it on its platform, but they actually don't have the audio description track there. Because it belongs to that studio, too. So it's not even an acquired property. It's simply a studio property. And that does not take them that much more effort to just upload that audio description track.
Alex Howard
I mean, I would, you know, obviously, I don't think there's anything malicious going on, I think they just forgot. But it's a pretty big thing that, you know, you just need to take the same file you sent to the theaters and put it up on Paramount, but they're forgetting that AD track. And that same person said that Top Gun Maverick didn't have it at first, which I was very surprised about. And I checked last night, and it does now. But yeah, it's like, you know, when you upload something, it should just be like captions, audio description with it.
Lee Pugsley
Yeah, to me, there is no excuse for not having an audio description track if you're a studio that owns the track. I agree with you though that I don't think there was any malicious intent, it's just something that slipped their mind. So hopefully, they'll remedy that sooner rather than later.
Alex Howard
Yeah.
Lee Pugsley
And then finally, on our list of major streaming services, at the bottom of the list right now is Peacock. Once again, original content is pretty much always audio described. But the back catalogue, even more recent movies, such as Jurassic World, don't have audio description. And so it's extremely hit or miss. But I think on Peacock, there's more misses for semi current movies and back catalogue movies from Universal that don't have AD.
Alex Howard
Yeah, we were just looking through it. The Office, which I don't know if it was described on Netflix, I can't remember. But it's funny that Netflix had The Office for so long. And you know, finally, Peacock was like, "We will take that back, thank you." And they just put it up on on Peacock without putting AD on it. And then Netflix goes out and does things like Friends or Seinfeld from Sony, and they put their own audio description track on there to make it accessible. Yet, Peacock owns The Office, and they didn't do that for that one. So it's almost, it tells me what the studio's priorities are clear. I feel like to me, like Netflix takes accessibility very seriously. Same with Disney and Apple. But it's not so much of a priority for companies like NBC Universal, or so it seems on the surface.
Lee Pugsley
I agree. And I think that you hit the nail on the head when you said "or so it seems," because there might be more going on behind the scenes that we don't know about. But from the consumer point of view, it doesn't seem like they prioritize accessibility very highly. And maybe there's an understanding gap of just, they're not thinking about accessibility, or it's something that they just don't know enough people that need certain accessible things like audio description, I don't know. But either way, hopefully, that will improve as we move forward.
Alex Howard
Yeah, I think one of the solutions which we can kind of transition into, devices with this talk too, is that basically when someone makes an AD track, it almost seems like if Netflix were to make it, or Amazon were gonna make it, it's almost like they own the track and the track doesn't follow the movie. My feeling is, if a track has been made, it should just stick with the movie, wherever it goes, whatever streaming platform, whatever, if you re-release in theaters, whatever you do with it, it should go along with the movie audio naturally. But I've noticed there's a lot of inconsistency. You know, something can be described on iTunes, but it's not described on Prime, or vice versa. Or, you know, it would be way easier if, I don't know if it's an FCC thing, or how to make it so that, you know, all audio description tracks are, they can't be owned by anyone. But I feel like that's a much bigger thing than just us two can change.
Lee Pugsley
I would love to know the business back dealings of how all of that works, and the licensing and all of those little nuanced details that go along with it. And to touch on what you were saying about iTunes, that does bring up the idea of rentals, you know. You can rent from iTunes, Prime Video, Vudu, Movies Anywhere, Redbox, AMC on Demand and probably other services that I'm not aware of. And it's really questionable every time of which rental service is going to have an audio description track, and which ones will not, and it's never consistent. And it's never the same. It can switch all the time. At least that's been my experience. Have you experienced something similar to that?
Alex Howard
I mean, I use the Audio Description Project website a lot, which has a big list of everything that's described, pretty much on any streaming service. You can click on the streaming service names, find out what's described within that, or you can just search it alphabetically, which is what I normally do to find out where I can watch something with description. Yeah, it's very hit or miss on where it is. Like, even, you know, sometimes, I think we were talking about a few episodes ago with Marcel the Shell, I could stream it for free on Showtime, but it didn't have description on Showtime. So I had to go actually pay and rent it on Amazon. Which that's like, oh, like, "Sorry, if you're blind, you have to pay for this. But if you're not, you can watch for free." Like, I know, that's not their intent. But that's certainly what it seems like and what it feels like, and it doesn't feel good. There, I mean, there's a blind tax pretty much, is what some people call it. Like to make things accessible, we shouldn't have to pay more for it.
Lee Pugsley
And on that note too, let's touch on devices.
Alex Howard
And one other thing about streaming, there are other services like AMC Plus and Shutter and Breezy and you know, these other services that don't really do much audio description at all. Like Shutter, I would love to have Shutter. It's a horror streaming service, like you bet I would be subscribed to that. But I'm not because there's no audio description on it. So like, you know, anytime I see Shutter acquire something, to most horror fans, it's joyful. But I'm like, "Oh, no, like, this isn't even gonna be accessible for me at all."
Lee Pugsley
I will also add on some of the services that I use sometimes that don't really have audio description at all, or very minimal audio description, which would be Hallmark Now, because on occasion, a Hallmark movie gets the job done. And especially around Christmas time, I will watch a few of them. But there is very little audio description on that app. And the audio description they have is very robotic and doesn't sound like a human being. And then the other service that I use is Broadway HD, which has live professional recordings of Broadway shows or theatrical productions. And they have like, less than five titles on there that have audio description. But it would be wonderful to see more titles being audio described, preferably all of them. But I will take what I can get in the hopes that they'll eventually get to that point. As we transition into accessibility on devices, I know, Alex, that you had done a poll in our audio description Facebook group, but I'm curious to know what you discovered through the poll.
Alex Howard
So it seems like most people in the group use a lot of Apple devices on their Apple TV or on their phone, things like that. And the consensus is that smart TVs are not very accessible at all. Especially I mean, even navigating VoiceOver is not too accessible. But beyond that, I mean, a lot of the you know, you download HBO Max, I have a smart TV, I used to use HBO Max on my TV. You And even after they made audio description for HBO Max, it wasn't compatible with my Smart TV. So I went out and I bought a Apple TV device, because that's where it was accessible. I pretty much bought that just for HBO. I mean, I think a lot of blind people also watch on their phones. I personally don't. I think my vision is enough, at this point, that I prefer to have a visual representation of what I'm watching in front of me. But I know a lot of blind people on their phones, they just kind of can listen with the AD, and that's enough for them.
Lee Pugsley
Yeah, and then that case, then it kind of becomes like a radio drama, or a dramatized audio book or something like that, which is still really cool. And I can understand why anyone would do that, you know?
Alex Howard
It certainly makes it easier. I usually wait till I'm home and sitting in front of my TV or at the theater to watch a movie. But you know, if you take Access, or you are in a long car ride, or something like that, you can kind of just resume your movie.
Lee Pugsley
It's interesting, too, because I know I miss a lot visually when I'm watching a movie. But I still prefer to have a visual. I don't know, maybe it's just like, the way that I grew up watching movies when my vision was better. But it just seems weird to not have a visual to accompany the audio.
Alex Howard
I completely agree. Yeah. And see, it's hard because there are some devices that you know, if it's not working on my TV, I'll pull it up on my phone. And I'll try and match the audio with the TV audio. So if I have an earphone and you know, and I'm watching with my roommate, I can just kind of hit play at the same time. And hope that you know, there's no echo, which is so frustrating. I've done that a couple times.
Lee Pugsley
I know that at one point, one of my friends had the Amazon Fire Stick. And that wasn't the most accessible device. I have not used one of those before. So hopefully, there have been advancements made for accessibility and audio description and voiceover to navigate that device.
Alex Howard
Yeah, I think Apple right now is probably one of the more accessible devices, in terms of devices, overall. I think some of the others, I'm not sure about Roku. I'm not sure about, what's the what's another one? The Fire Stick.
Lee Pugsley
Google has one too, right?
Alex Howard
I think Google does have one. Yeah, what do you usually use to stream stuff?
Lee Pugsley
I use Apple TV once again, because of the ease of accessibility that I've experienced in all of their products. Now one other comment I want to make on devices too, that can be frustrating, is sometimes for me, even with my iPhone or other devices, using a screen reader, which is the voiceover that tells you what's on the screen. It doesn't always make it easy to find the audio and subtitles menu, like sometimes it'll just say, you know, "tap here to bring up the menu," you know, the menu. But when you put your hand across it on the touchscreen, you can't really find where the audio and subtitles are. It just keeps saying you know, like, "double click to hide controls," you know, or "click to show controls." And so that's really frustrating when the voiceover isn't telling me exactly where to go to find the audio description. I've also had that problem with Apple TV on occasion, of just trying to find the right place to scroll to, to get to the audio and subtitle menus. And one thing that you touched on that I wanted to circle back to is app updates. That oftentimes you might have to update your apps to the latest version. And then the audio description will work or you'll get more audio description on different things than you had before. Which isn't the end of the world, but it would be nice if it just automatically updated for you. And I know you can turn on automatic updates. But it still can be frustrating if you're trying to figure out why audio description isn't working. And that's one of the things that's easy to slip your mind.
Alex Howard
That's interesting when you're talking about the touch screen. Because usually I'll do voiceover on my TV. I have that thing on my phone, but since I don't really stream content from my phone very often, except for something like YouTube, TV is where I normally do it. So the voiceover on there, I can't remember how well it works with navigating the menus, because usually, you know, it's either below the track bar or above it or in the corner. You know, there's only so many places it can be, but I I could totally see how, if it's a touchscreen on your phone and being low vision, it could be really frustrating.
Lee Pugsley
Yeah, it is.
Alex Howard
So do you want to transfer to physical media?
Lee Pugsley
Yeah. Let's talk a little bit about physical media. I know that's like one of your big passions, because you're a collector of it.
Alex Howard
Yeah, so I... It's weird. So for me, despite being low vision, I feel like 4k makes a big difference for me. Like, even with the... I think it's mostly a color thing, like the details I could take or leave. I know, people were talking about how Avengers Endgame in 4K, you can see like the hairs on Thanos's arms. And I was like, I can't really see that. But the colors really pop for me and the blacks. And all of that is, I love 4K, I love 4k discs. I love just having, you know, the physical copy of movies. And it's hard because in recent years, since my eyesight has been getting a little worse, and I've been using audiodescription more all the time, my rules for what I'm going to buy has changed. And so now I'm, it used to be that I would pretty much buy anything I want, you know, within price reasonable. I think now it's more, okay, if I want this and I can afford this, would I enjoy this and does it have audio description? So I had a rule for a while that I couldn't buy anything unless it had audio description on the disk. And now I've kind of bent that rule a little bit to, okay, you can buy anything, if it has a digital code, and it has audio description on iTunes, then you can buy it, put it into your digital library, and then you have it with description, and I would still have the visible copy. But it's weird. It's hard being a collector, you could say, and also being visually impaired. I mean, anytime I find something like a older movie with AD, that's my favorite. I mean, I own 2001 on 4K with audio description. I own Speed on 4K with the audio description. I just ordered Edge of Tomorrow with audio description on 4K. So I love it when studios say "oh, we're gonna clean this movie up, and we're gonna add audio description." That is awesome. Like, I don't understand how they clean it up. They're cleaning up The Exorcist right now and getting ready to release that on 4K for its 50th anniversary. And I'm like, I am praying that that has audio description on the disc, because that would be so cool to watch with ad
Lee Pugsley
That is awesome. I totally all about that. And I hope that The Exorcist does have audio description. And I hope that studios continue to clean up movies and put audio description on the physical media, as well as the digital version. Because in contrast to you, I don't really buy a lot of physical media anymore, because for a while a fair amount of the discs did not have audio description. Or it can be frustrating because sometimes you'll get like, you know, a Blu ray DVD combo pack or something. And one of the discs will have audio description, but not the other one. I think it was, I want to say it was Dune but maybe I'm wrong about that, that the Blu ray didn't have audio description, but the DVD did. If it wasn't Dune it was another recent movie. And I was just like that makes no sense. Why can't both discs have audio description? Why can't it just be consistent across the board with Blu ray, DVD, 4K. But I know that you've also experienced some discrepancy with that too.
Alex Howard
Yeah, so I don't know why. And I actually haven't checked recent universal titles like in the last few months, but it used to be, I bought Invisible Man on 4K. And I bought Jaws on 4K, which I don't even think Jaws has a track at all on there. But Invisible Man is a newer movie. And I watched it in theaters with audio description and then I bought the 4K disc because I love that movie. And it doesn't have it on the 4K, only on the Blu ray. And I know it's not the intention, and it might even be like, "oh, 4K takes up so much more room that we need to, we can't, we don't have room to put the audio description track on there." Which, I mean even that I don't buy because Endgame is three hours and that has AD on the disc. But like, it appears that, once again, like NBC Universal, it's not their priority. Like why would you only put it on the Blu ray disc? Because 4K really makes a big difference for me. Like then I have to choose between audio description with worse quality or better quality even though I still can't see everything and no AD.
Lee Pugsley
That is extremely frustrating. And to your point, there are many movies that are very long that I know have audio description on the 4K disc. So I think there's a way to make room for it, obviously. One of the other things that I wanted to mention about physical media for myself, because like I said, I don't buy physical media very much anymore, is that when I go to put in a Blu ray, or 4K disc or DVD, it can be really frustrating for me to figure out where the audio subtitles menu is, and how to turn on the audio description on the disc. Because sometimes the menus visually are so cluttered and I know they want to make the menus on the Blu rays or 4K's or DVDs look really cool. But sometimes it's so cluttered or so fancy in their writing and everything, that it can be really hard for me to find where the English audio description track is and to select that. And there have been so many times where I've put in a disc and spent probably half hour to 40 minutes, just looking for the English audio description track. And it's so annoying, because something that would take a sighted person, you know, like five seconds to figure out, can take me like 30 to 45 minutes. And because it feels like so much of an effort, it deters me from buying physical media, when I know that I can just get a digital code or I can buy it digitally. And it'll come with an audio description track, but I don't have to work so hard to turn on.
Alex Howard
Yeah, it's funny that you mention that, because I was having this problem literally like yesterday. I put in my Raiders of the Lost Ark 4K. And, you know, it's like tan on tan, right? Tan background, tan writing. And I'm like, I can't see this at all. So I was trying to find out if it had audio description, which I still don't know, I don't think it did. I literally went through every language that was on there. I think it has Spanish audio description actually, but honestly, I have no idea. So I ended up just going on Paramount Plus, even though I own the movie on 4K. I wanted to try it with the description to see if there's anything I missed. And it's weird. Like, you're right, a lot of the menus are really hard to navigate. And you would think that they would somehow make it accessible. I don't know if, you know, if you can use your PlayStation voiceover or something like that. But someone should come out with a player that has a voiceover that can navigate the menus.
Lee Pugsley
It's tricky, because I don't know what the solution is. I think what you mentioned about having a player that would actually have accessibility for the Blu ray, DVD and 4K menus that would just automatically turn on or you could turn it on, on your remote. And it would read to you the menus as you navigate through them. That would really be the way to go. Beyond that, I don't know if there's really an easy or feasible solution. And that's why once again, I'm just gonna have to stick to mostly digital media for now, unless there's something that I just think would be really fun to own. Because I love having a collection of physical media, it just doesn't really serve me well anymore.
Alex Howard
For you, I know you bought Dune. When there's a movie you really really love, you try and go out and buy it right? Like on physical?
Lee Pugsley
I do try to buy them physical, but now my rule of thumb is I need a digital code as well. Because the main reason that I would have a physical collection now is for friends that come over. If I go visit someone, you know, and I'm like, I'll take a few movies with me. Then it's nice to have something physical to hold in your hand. And you know sometimes the cover art is really nice as well. I know that you collect steel books, you know. And I know that you do that primarily for the cover art I'm guessing?
Alex Howard
I do steel books. I do. It's hard, like man, being a being a movie fan with the visual medium and being legally blind, it's tough. Like there's so many cool like boutique labels like Shout! Factory and Kino Lorber and Criterion and you know, these labels that are taking these older movies and cleaning them up and releasing them in these nice packages. And I'm like, hardly any of them do audio description. I think there's like three Arrow video titles. There's like four Criterion titles... The only Criterion ones that have audio description are Wall-E, which is Disney. So Disney probably sent them the movie with the AD track. And all of the Netflix ones that are Netflix originals that are on Criterion have it. But obviously Criterion is not over there making their own tracks. They're just using ones that are already exist. Which is fine, that's fine. But if you're gonna do that, maybe do that for more than just four movies, you know? Like Evil Dead 2013, I love that movie. And it came out on Shout! Factory, 4K, no AD. And then I saw it at a used Blu ray shop the other day on regular Blu ray, and it had it on the disc. And I was like, "Why didn't this just transfer over to Shout! Factory?" Like that would have been so cool to have the packaging and all the features and all that stuff and display it but like, they're just not, I don't know that they think about accessibility. And I've even emailed. I send an email to the help desk of Scream Factory, of Kino Lorber, of I think I did Criterion as well and Arrow. And I was like, "Is there a way you can tell me like, which movies have audio description?" And I was kind of hinting at like, "you should do more." And they just sent me like, I think one of them sent me back like a "We'll get back to you" and they never did. And then Arrow was like, "Yeah, we have like these two." I think it was Crimson Peak and one other one. And so it's just, it's frustrating to, you know, see all these. I'm glad to see all these people on YouTube and in the movie fandom getting so excited about different things being released. You know, most people love Shout! Factory. But anytime something like Nightmare on Elm Street, which we're still waiting for on 4K, if that were to get announced by Shout! Factory, I would be very disappointed because that would be a nail in the coffin that that's going to have audio description. Whereas if Warner Brothers put it up themselves, there might be a chance that it could happen.
Lee Pugsley
Interesting. It would be really nice if there was a law from the FCC, or I don't know, ADA or something, that required all physical discs, no matter what format or what release it was, to have audio description on their discs.
Alex Howard
Yeah, no, it would be really great. I mean, right now I'm kind of changing my collection around a little bit. But my goal is to like, yeah, have a collection of movies where, you know, if I'm watching with someone I could be like, literally, you could choose any of those movies and we could watch it and I could fully enjoy it. Because it has audio description. Anything older, like I said is my favorite, like, back catalogue titles. I just saw all of the Rocky movies, the 4Ks have them. Audio description on the disc. Paramount presents, they do like every every fifth release, they'll do a audio description track. But it's so cool because they're older movies. But, you know, I think Paramount is really good at accessibility for physical. Disney is obviously good. But I don't buy a lot of Disney because literally everything's on Disney Plus. But like, yeah, there are certain studios that are better than others. But definitely Universal is in last place again.
Lee Pugsley
True, true. Well, as we kind of bring everything to a close, any other thoughts on physical media, or the home viewing experience for blind and low vision viewers in general?
Alex Howard
I guess not too much. I think it's just I mean, you and I both, we've made it clear we prefer the movie theater to home theater. But I know a lot of blind people have frustrations at the theater, so they watch at home. And you know, there are frustrations at home too. So we just wanted to highlight the positives and negatives of doing at-home viewing, and hope that, I mean, the goal is that this podcast will make a difference at some point. And someone in one of the studios will hear what we're saying and change something. So we would love to hear from all of you, our listeners, and what your experience is with at-home viewing and the struggles and the celebrations of, you know, what you enjoy and what you don't like. And yeah, just let us know what you think you can email us DarkRoomFilmCast@gmail.com. We always always love to hear from you guys.
Lee Pugsley
Yeah, and once again, I know we've said this every week, but no question or conversation topic is off limits. So anything you want us to talk about, anything you want to talk about with us, by all means please reach out. As we close, you know, just wanted to say that while there are a lot of frustrations within the world of accessibility for blind and low vision users when it does come to the home viewing experience, we also do, as you said Alex, we celebrate what has happened, and the improvements and the steps forward that had been taken. That that really is encouraging to see.
Alex Howard
Oh yeah, 20 years ago, this was all, everyone was like "What's audio description?" Like sometimes people still say that but you know, it was much much much more rare than it is now. So we are very fortunate to be living in a time where it is this accessible, but there is still work that can be done.
Lee Pugsley
Right. So if you are a studio employee or someone in the entertainment industry that's listening to this, thank you for the work that you guys have done to make accessibility more accessible. And let's continue in that direction. We'll all work together, and it'll be good.
Alex Howard
Yeah. And yeah, thank you, especially all the voiceover artists and AD writers who, you know, do what they do. And I'm sure sometimes it's frustrating for them to make a track and then it's streaming somewhere and they're like, oh, but I'm not. The track isn't with it. But you know, that's what we're working on. And a special shout out to Matt Lauterbach and All Senses Go once again for doing the transcriptions on the episode so we can be accessible ourselves.
Lee Pugsley
Yeah, definitely. Thank you, Matt. Really appreciate it. And thank you all for listening once again. Thank you for joining us on this journey. And we'll see you back here next time on The Dark Room.
Alex Howard
Yeah, take care guys.
Lee Pugsley
All right. Bye.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai