Ep. 14: Up Close With Kurt Yeager, Disabled Film/TV Actor

Alex and Lee chat with Kurt Yeager, a disabled actor whose credits include “Sons Of Anarchy”, “NCIS”, and “The Beanie Bubble”. in our conversation, Kurt discusses the accident that caused his disability, his philosophy on representation and navigating Hollywood, and the SAG-AFTRA and WGA strikes. If you would like to help the industry professionals currently out of work, you can donate to the Entertainment Community Fund at https://entertainment community.org

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Transcript

Lee Pugsley  
Happy August, everyone. Welcome back to Episode 14 of The Dark Room where two blind cinephiles illuminate the side. I'm Lee Pugsley.

Alex Howard  
I'm Alex Howard.

Lee Pugsley  
And this is a podcast hosted by two legally blind guys for film lovers of all abilities. And today we have a very special guest with us. Alex, why don't you introduce him?

Alex Howard  
Yes, I'm really excited. We're gonna have a conversation with Kurt Yaeger. He is in shows such as Sons of Anarchy, and most of the different NCIS variations. But currently he is in The Beanie Bubble, on Apple TV plus, and has an upcoming film called Sunrise. How's it going, Kurt?

Kurt Yaeger  
It's going great, guys. Thanks for having me on.

Lee Pugsley  
Thanks for being with us. It's a pleasure.

Alex Howard  
Yeah, thank you. I guess to start off, if you want to talk about your disability and how -- I know you had an accident, how that happened, and how you came to sort of use that in your acting. Rather than, I know, a lot of people with disabilities, like there's a lot of acceptance, and you know, you have to go through a whole phase of mourning, whether it be eyesight, or a leg or whatever it may be. But you seem to really own it and use it to your advantage. So I wanted to know your process with all of that.

Kurt Yaeger  
Yeah. So about 15 years ago, I lost my leg in a motorcycle accident, tore my pelvis in half, tore my bladder in half, broke seven vertebrae, collapsed my lungs, broke all my right ribs and a bunch of other things. And spent about three and a half months in a hospital bed, and then another year in recovery, and going through treatment rehab. And then in the film business, it took me about five, maybe six years to start considering that my disability was actually my advantage. Like there's actually a quality, not a distraction or not a detriment. And once I made that psychological change, I think a lot of things started changing for me. Because instead of walking into a room and going, like, "Hey, I gotta hide it." Because, you know, this is what I think people think. Or I got to try to cover it up or make up for it or overcome it, or all these other stupid things I thought, which are totally normal to think. But I just thought of it incorrectly. And so once I set it to being, you know, overtly competent and proud of it, then other people started reacting in the same manner. So it's sort of the same adage of, you know, dress for success, you know, act 'as if.' So once I said, "No, my leg missing is awesome," everyone else started going, "Oh, it's kind of awesome, isn't it?" And then, thus, I think people start going, "Oh, Kurt. Yeah, he's awesome, his leg's awesome. Cool. We could use that." I think that's kind of how it like turned in my mind over the years.

Alex Howard  
Yeah. And I think when I met you at ReelAbilities, I think your -- if you want to tell the story about how you got your role on Sons of Anarchy -- which is one of my favorite shows of all time, it's got to be like up there with Breaking Bad for me -- but if you want to tell the story of how you got that role, I think it was very, what you were just talking about, the confidence really comes out in that.

Kurt Yaeger  
Yeah, it was really interesting, because Sons of Anarchy was the show I really wanted to be on. Right? I'm a motorcycle guy. I can ride motorcycles. I relearned how to ride motorcycles with one leg. And I tried to get to everybody. I tried to get through casting, who are lovely people but that just wasn't working. I tried to get through the producers, and that wasn't working. And so I ended up getting at a motorcycle charity event. And Sons of Anarchy guys were there. And we rode, we did a whole big ride together. And then at the end was a little party. And I was able to sneak into the VIP section, which I literally wasn't allowed in, with the help of Eileen Grubba. You know, I don't know if you know her. She is great. But she snuck, helped me sneak in. And I got into the VIP section. And up there was the showrunner, writer, creator, Kurt Sutter. And I was like there he is, across the room. You've been trying to talk to people in this TV show for three years. How am I gonna get in? And so I walk up to him and I go, "Here's your moment. Here's your moment." And you know, Kurt is a kind of a hard man. You know, he's a, he's a tough character. And so I go up to him and I'm like, "Hey, Kurt. My name is Kurt Jaeger. I just wanted to say that your TV show is absolutely amazing. You guys capture the Northern California motorcycle club, you know, down to the shoes that Jax wears. He's wearing, you know, tennis shoes, white kicks instead of like boots, That so NorCal." He's like, "Thanks, man. I'm glad you noticed." I'm like, "Absolutely, brother." And I go, "But you're just missing one thing." And he goes, "What? What am I missing?" And I go, every single club has a guy go down and rip their leg off. I pulled up my pant leg and showed him. I had one leg. And I go, "Here's my card," which was like my actors card. And I gave it to him. "Here's my card. I'm not gonna tell you how good of an actor I am. But I can ride motorcycles better than all your actors. Have a good day." And so like six months later, I got a call and they're like, "Hey, we want you to audition for this role that was written for you." So that's the same idea, right? Like, it's like, I considered how my disability would be an advantage for the storytelling of the show, not just "Hey, I want to be on your show." I was trying to figure out something that actually made their show better. And if you present it that way, then they think, "That is a good idea! Well, I might as well give the good idea to the guy who came up with a good idea."

Alex Howard  
Yeah. And then he writes you a role. That's really awesome.

Kurt Yaeger  
Exactly. 

Lee Pugsley  
I really admire that confidence. And just kind of a point of relatability, to touch on a few things that you said. So I'm visually impaired after myself, and when -- I've always been visually impaired, but my vision has gotten worse over the years. And when my vision started to get worse, I actually walked away from acting for a little while while I was trying to hide my disability. And then as the landscape kind of changed, I kind of realized exactly what you were saying. That it's like, being visually impaired doesn't have to be a hindrance or a crutch, it could actually be a, you know, I don't know if I want to use the term calling card, but something I can use to my advantage to stand out in auditions, and with casting directors and all of that. And, yeah, it took me a while to build up my confidence. But now like, you know, when I go into an audition room, I'm like, "You know what, I'm here, I have something to offer, I have a unique way of life to present a character through and take it or leave it, but I'm not apologizing anymore for who I am." So I love your mentality and your outlook on the way that you approach acting with a disability.

Kurt Yaeger  
I mean, it's 100% true. And it takes a while to figure out that's the psychological construct. We create a lot of times our own prisons, right? You know, whether it's confidence, and it's inside of disabilities, and it's outside of disabilities. You know what I mean? Like, if you're, like, really shy and meek, and you want to date a girl or a guy, it's like, they're, they might be attracted. But if you're super confident, then they're like, "Oh, what's he confident about?" You know, it's like that kind of a thing. If you're confident about what you have to offer, and you recognize that like, your disability and your experience with it is unique. Even amongst other people who have the same disability, your perspective is unique. Once you realize that's an asset, just like any other, so on so forth, like skill or quality. You know, like, are you seven foot tall? Are you five foot one? Like those are just, you know, physical or intellectual or experiential attributes. When you realize it's just another attribute, okay! That that's what makes you different. That's what makes you interesting. And that's what makes you stand out, which makes you memorable. If you're memorable, then you'll work.

Alex Howard  
Yeah. And I think that's sort of what we're going for with the podcast, too, because what -- I mean, there aren't many podcasts out there with low vision people talking about movies. So yeah, we're trying to use our unique perspective with our low vision to influence the entertainment industry.

Kurt Yaeger  
Well, like, let me ask you guys a question just because it's interesting to me, because, you know, like, you can ask me about my leg and acting and all the rest of it, but like, how is it that low vision people enjoy, you know, visual entertainment? Like, how does that function? Like help me understand that.

Alex Howard  
So we use something called Audio Description.

Kurt Yaeger  
Okay. 

Alex Howard  
You know, it describes the action on screen when, between lines of dialogue so we can understand what's going on. But I just, I've always loved movies. And when my eyesight was better, I did also, and it was just like, I'm not going to give up this passion of mine, just because I can't see. So thank God that audio description exists, so I can keep enjoying it. 

Kurt Yaeger  
Nice. 

Alex Howard  
What would you say, Lee?

Lee Pugsley  
Yeah, no, I mean, I would agree with that, like, audio description has been a game changer. I mean, you look at like, you know, 20 years ago, nothing was audio described. And now I would say, we'll be generous and say maybe 75% of content from mainstream Studios is audio described now. And that's really been a game changer for the way that we consume media. There's a common myth that like, blind and low vision people don't watch movies or TV shows. And you know, it's really not true. There's, you know, blind and low vision viewers love watching media, it just needs to be accessible so we feel like we're getting the whole experience, or we're getting an experience, and as much of the whole experience as possible. 

Kurt Yaeger  
Yeah. 

Lee Pugsley  
So yeah, and then I also go see a lot of live theater, I'm a big theater guy as well. And they actually do like live audio description for theater productions. It's not as developed as it could be yet, but you know, we're getting there and there's steps of progress. So, you know, I'm grateful for that as well.

Kurt Yaeger  
That's good. Like, how, how well is it described? Because, you know, when I look at captions, you know, just in general, it's like, I'm watching captions, which I know are not audio descriptions, but when I'm watching sometimes, to see I'm like, "Man, if I was hard of hearing or deaf, these captions wouldn't be very accurate. They wouldn't be very good." Like I was like, "I want to make these better," you know? So how is the audio description? Is it pretty good?

Lee Pugsley  
It depends on the project, I would say. But generally speaking, especially from the major studios, I do think it is pretty good. And like, you know, for example, what it'll do is it'll be like, you'll see a scene and there'll be like, "Sarah walks across the living room, she picks up a coffee cup. On the coffee cup is the words "I love Mom," if that's something that's, you know, important to the story, a little like textual detail that we need to know for later. They do a good job overall. Alex, what are your thoughts?

Alex Howard  
Yeah, I mean, I think part of this podcast is also doing movie criticism and punditry. But also, you know, criticizing the audio description and trying to improve that where, where it can be improved. Like The Flash just came out. And they finally started describing the cameos, saying, you know, Nicolas Cage as Superman, or whatever it is. Like, saying the actor's name really goes a long way for enjoying the cameos. And they've never done that before. 

Kurt Yaeger  
Ahhh, yeah.

Alex Howard  
You know, there are different things that they continue to improve on as the years go on.

Kurt Yaeger  
That's great. Yeah, one thing I always tell tell people all the time is -- I think it's helpful -- wwhenever I think about writing a film, or producing or directing it, I know when it comes to the creation of it, I tell people all the time, how important like audio is and how important the quality of audio is just from a construct. And they go, "What do you mean?" I tell friends of mine to watch their favorite films, but they turn off the visual elements, and they just listen to it. And if they just listen to it, they get a whole new experience for their film. And it actually helps them create better film in the future. So it's really an interesting thing that I never really considered good audio description versus bad audio description. And what that guy, what that would sound like, you know, and what the experience would be for you guys.

Alex Howard  
Yeah, there are a lot of different ways it can be bad, whether it's the mix, if the audio description's too loud, then the rest of it are too low. And then there are ways they say things that they emote. I hate it when audio describers emote, that's not as common now. But when it first started, it would get like excited and I was like "That's my job. What do you...?" But, yeah, they're definitely varied ways that it can be good or bad. But ya, I know, that's really interesting. I think I had heard that too, in film school, that when you're making a film, if you watch it with no visuals and see how it is, it's important. I did have a question for you about The Beanie Bubble. We we both watched over the weekend, and I know your role, like, you hold your own against Elizabeth Banks, which is awesome. But was that role, were they looking for someone in a wheelchair? Or were they just like....? I thought it was great that it wasn't apparent that that character was written in a wheelchair, and they just chose you because you're a good actor. I wasn't sure if that's how it was.

Kurt Yaeger  
Yeah, they were looking for anybody with any disability and then seeing how they could utilize it. So I know they auditioned a lot of different people, because they wanted something for that role. And then when I did, I said, "Look, you know, let's say he's, you know, had a bad motorcycle accident and, you know, lost the leg and had that too." Plus, you know, maybe he had like, because when I had my accident, there was a lot of lung damage. You know what I mean? Like, you know, I collapsed my lungs. So it took a while for me to be able to get back up to par. So they loved that idea and incorporated the rest of it in. The only thing I told them and I said, "Hey, look, I always come into a project and I want to help you guys make it as good as I can. So I'm happy to play the quote unquote, character that has a disability as long as as just juxtaposed to strength." So this character isn't like, "Oh, help me honey" all the time. He's like, "Listen, if you're gonna cheat, ef you." You know what I mean? Like, so there's a bit of that then. "Fine, go. Get out of here. What do you..." You know, like that kind of a vibe. So one: thank you for saying that performance I did held my own against Elizabeth because she's, she's a, just a beast of an actor. She is great. That makes me feel pretty good to hear that you guys thought that I did well.

Lee Pugsley  
Really solid work that you did in The Beanie Bubble. And that also kind of triggers a question for me too. I'm curious to know, where do you feel like -- obviously disability representation for films and TV has improved a lot over the years? Where do you feel like it's at now and what would your dream be to see it progress forward to?

Kurt Yaeger  
Well, I'm, I'm a weird amalgamation of positive and negative but not an optimist. I'm not a pessimist. I'm a realist. So I think that the amount of representation has improved by let's say double, which is a lot. But since representation was, is, so atrocious, doubling a 16th of a percent, really isn't doubling much. You know what I mean? Like it's not anywhere near where it should be. If 20% of the population has a disability, and less than point 5% of on camera talent is actually disabled, then we're so far off the mark, it's ridiculous. So I think we have a massive uphill battle, I still think we have a massively huge road. And I don't want to say we're doing well. So, because I don't want to congratulate people who are only doing the bare minimum. I'd expect a lot more because I want every single person I know who's talented to be working. And I think that most of my people who are talented aren't working nearly enough that they should be. So where we should be is having writers and producers and directors and A-list talent and executives at the studios and at a network who are all disabled. N, not one person who's helping DEI. You know what I mean? Like that, I see that the incorporation of people with disabilities in the film and television business should be akin to the incorporation of disabilities in the corporate hiring structure, and the different positions that people have, which is, as you guys know, just as atrocious in the corporate world as it is in Hollywood. So we've got a far way to go.

Lee Pugsley  
I agree with that. And yeah, you make a good point that it really has to start with the people that are making these creative decisions. That's the only way that, you know, the acting world is going to change in terms of representation, is if those people are coming from different walks of life. And they can bring to the table their own experiences and see the value of, you know, people with different walks of life being represented and just seeing once again, how creative and how fun storytelling can be with those unique perspectives too.

Kurt Yaeger  
100%.

Alex Howard  
No, I completely agree. Were you an actor before your accident? or No?

Kurt Yaeger  
No, I did like some little things here and there. But it wasn't a career. I was actually getting my master's in hydrogeology. So I was doing groundwater science and doing research at Berkeley for fluvial experimentations for dam removal. [laughs] So I had a whole different life that I was doing. And before that I was a professional athlete in the X Games. So I did double flips over 50 foot jumps on a BMX bike. So I've lived a colorful life so far. I think it's those other experiences that allows me to kind of look at the film business as a person who's already been at the highest levels in two other fields, to kind of consider the way it is in this field from a different perspective. Like I'm not trying to go from the bottom and work my way all the way through. Like I've already been a professional athlete, and I've already been, you know, on a hard science kind of capacity. So when I look at the film business, I look at it from a scientific perspective, which is like Occam's razor like, looking at everything, eliminating everything, and what's left must be true. It's like that kind of like adage where it's a little more ruthless on its approach. Like science doesn't like or dislike something, it just finds out what the facts are, and what the facts aren't. And so I that's kind of my approach in the film business. So the fact that I'm saying like, it wasn't, it's, they're not doing very good for disability representation isn't like me being a pessimist. It's just, that's the fact. Right? And so great. Can we can we do better? Of course. But yeah, I wasn't really much of an actor or anything before. I did some stunts here and there, for TV shows and films because I, you know, was a BMXer. But I never really thought, "Oh, I could totally be an actor." I didn't think it was for people like me, you know?

Alex Howard  
What was the thing that changed your mind with that after the accident?

Kurt Yaeger  
Well, I had a near death experience. So I kind of was like, "What do you really want to do out of life?" And I said, I want to go for the hardest thing that I think I'm going to enjoy the most and not care about the results. And so I put my ego aside, and I don't mean like ego, like, you know, cockiness, I meant ego like fear of failure. I put the fear of failure out of my ego aside, and said, "You know what, if you fail or not, you better try." And so I just went for it. That kind of helped. I mean, every single person except my best friend Jessica Denning, every single person who I said "I'm going to be acting, I'm gonna do, I'm gonna write and I'm gonna produce and switch careers" after my accident, they all thought I hit my head too hard. [laughing] So it kind of changed my perspective. I mean, like, I was like, you know, through it. Like, if I'm gonna fail, I'm gonna fail big.

Lee Pugsley  
I like that philosophy. My, one of my philosophies in life is, live without regrets. And I'd rather know that I tried my whole life to pursue something I'm passionate about, even if I fail, than sitting back, you know, like, 10 years from now and wondering, what would have happened if dot dot dot, you know.

Alex Howard  
One of the main reasons we wanted to have you on the show is to talk about the SAG strike. I know, one of the sticking points is residuals. And I know you've been on NCIS and Sons of Anarchy and in Good Doctor, and these, you know, kind of guest roles where normally you would get residuals for when your episode airs. But how, what is your experience with that, and have you seen a shift in your residuals since things have shifted over to streaming?

Kurt Yaeger  
Yeah, the streaming model is, you know, a 10 year old contract or whatever it is for when the streamers were tiny, and they weren't really, you know, didn't have the numbers to back up their, their model. They needed to pay less for content in their growing phase. Well, I don't know if you know this, but the streamers show more content to more people around the globe than ABC, NBC and CBS combined. That those three networks pay higher residuals than even cable or HBO or Showtime or anything like that. So the fact that they are now in a position of great power means that they should be paying the same relative percentage of residuals as the entities that they are akin to. So it's really pathetic, for the digital outlets, the streamers, to mince words about what they can and can't pay. Now, that being said, these are corporate entities, that their sole mission is to create the most amount of profits for their shareholders. If they didn't fight this, they wouldn't be doing their jobs. So I don't see this as being something abhorrent or inappropriate for them to do. They should. And they should lose the battle. But they should fight. And then we should fight stronger. And then they said, "See, corporate shareholders, we did the best we could, we fought this. And we lost." That, and that's actually sort of the system. And that's why it works. And that's why, you know, having a group of employees argue and be able to argue and be able to strike when they need to, is important as well. And I think that's where you get sort of the right kind of dynamic where two entities with nearly opposing goals, have to be able to talk and strike and argue out in the open so that everyone can see it. And then everyone make a choice about whether or not they want to keep their subscriptions for Netflix, or they cancel them in support. And that's like the best model, I think, for an open dialogue. So it makes sense to me why they're fighting it. I just hope they lose because I think they're wrong for sort of their arguments.

Alex Howard  
Yeah, and for people that are listening that aren't sure exactly what we're talking about. For residuals, for the way it used to be with TV is whenever your episode would air, you would get a check in the mail for it airing. But now that you can literally watch all of these shows, anytime, they're always available, there's no real formula for "Okay, if this many people watch this episode, you get paid a certain amount," right? They're pretty much fighting to make that formula now. Is that correct, Kurt?

Kurt Yaeger  
Yeah, it's kind of like this. On network and cable, you get paid, right? You get paid to shoot the episode, then -- that payment is the payment that you got paid for it airing the first time. Then when it airs a second time, like on reruns or things like that, because they're using your image again, and using your work, they pay you a percentage of what you got paid the first time. Not a full amount, but a percentage. You know, so it's like kind of fair, you know what I mean? Like you're gonna, "Alright, we we used your labor, so we're gonna give you some money back for that residual labor in your image." And then as they do a third showing and a fifth showing that numeric goes further and further down. For streamers, that percentage was contractually lower so that the streamers could build their networks up. And now they don't want to pay that. They don't want to pay the increased fee. They were paying a tiny fraction of that. But it was being viewed by 10 times more viewers. So we're like, "Hey, guys, you can't do that." They're like, "No, we don't want to." But also the residual rates haven't gone up even according to inflationary numbers, like so... Residuals overall are down, then the streamers are also like, well, we don't want to pay even a higher percentage, who cares about increasing it overall? And the other arguments are, we don't want to increase your pay of per diem. That's where when you're shooting on location, and often staying in hotels that don't even have a kitchen, and they're like, "Here's $50, hey, here's 50 dollars to eat on the weekend." You're like, "$50, like, where am I going to breakfast lunch and dinner plus the Uber to go get somewhere?" Like $50, like that was, you know, 1990 money. So we're saying "No, you gotta pay more." And they're like, "No, we're not going to pay that either." So that's, there's that, plust the AI, plus a lot of other things that they're arguing. So it's, it's, it is what it is, you know what I mean? Like, if I were in charge, I wouldn't want to pay more either. It's just, it's just if all my people revolted, I'd be like, "All right." Now, personally, I like taking care of my people, so that there is never a revolt. But and I also know, because of my near death experience, I can't take more money with me. So I only need enough to function at a higher level. So you know, I'm okay with with personally paying better wages than a lot of other people pay from a production side. But, you know, I understand people who haven't had near death, they think that they're gonna live forever, and they need more money so that they can live cooler and better lifestyles. I mean, the people who are very, very rich play a completely different lifestyle game than us. And we think, "It's just atrocious." But relatively, they're paying it, playing it against each other. So it's relative to them. Like, you know, it's not saying it's right, it is at least trying to understand it.

Lee Pugsley  
Yeah, that makes sense. Also, I'm curious to know, what are your thoughts on AI and kind of the protections that the Screen Actors Guild is fighting for against AI usage?

Kurt Yaeger  
AI is a really interesting thing. They wanted to pay actors, especially background actors, one day rate for them to show up at film and have their entire likenesses scanned to be put in a database to be used in perpetuity in all the universe for all time for free. It's like, "Wait, wait, what did you guys just say?!" It is egregious, and completely unwarranted, and absolutely dastardly. I think that the studios should be, you know, I don't know, raked over the coals for something like that, you know, I think it's horrible. Now, if it's a big actor who wants their likeness used and scanned, and then they get paid for it as if they were filming it, and then they do a voiceover? I mean, that's technology. You know what I mean? That's like people with horses being upset that cars were coming into existence. Stuff like that is okay. But everyone deserves payment for use of their likeness, as if it was the same day of work or payment. Because they're being used for that profit motive. It's like, the same way that I would, you know, always pay a writer who wrote something, you know, and I created a TV show, that writer gets paid for every every single episode that is created, whether that writer writes about it or not. And so AI has that for actors, but it also has it for writers. But it also has it for animators and everything else. I mean, there was an episode of South Park, I don't know if you guys heard about this? AI, someone created through AI and a bunch of different AI programs, an episode of South Park about AI that was fully from AI. That was voices. That was animation. That was story. That was everything. And it's pretty impressive. And they put it out for free on YouTube. It's good, but it's not great. You know what I mean? So you know, AI will have its limitations. It'll end up becoming a tool that people use. It's just who uses it, I think is where the fulcrum point of the problem is. You know, studios can't use it to get rid of writers, but writers can use it to make writing better. Stuff like I think.

Lee Pugsley  
Yeah, I mean, I'm not against AI by any means. I think that there's a lot of benefits to it. I see the benefits of, you know, productivity and efficiency and how it can be, like you said, a helpful tool to make things better. But I do think that some of the abuses or taking advantage of with AI, are also risk factors that, when put in the wrong hands could be very detrimental and damaging to other people.

Kurt Yaeger  
Yeah, I think one thing that, you know, always like sort of not like, just straight up, like, bothers me. But like, a lot of times, we put like the onus on other people to do the right thing. Like these big corporate conglomerates are going to do the right thing for me. Why? I can only do the right things for me. And I wish that people understood the responsibility of their dollar more. For instance, Nike is using slave labor in China, and child labor in order to make your shoes. Stop buying their shoes until they actually stop doing that practice. Like, come on, guys. You know what I mean? But no one realizes that they have the responsibility and should have the responsibility to do that. It's the same thing. Like I have a lot of people who are like, "Man, I can't even really listen to radio that much, because they always play the same song." And I'm like, "You're listening to the same station. You can change the station, man, change the station." You know what I mean? Like, change your behavior, and take leadership in your own life to effect change. Good for good or bad. Look what happened to Bud Light? For good or bad? Look what happened to like, Chick-fil-A. That's the point. Like, that's what we should do. And I think people, I think they give the responsibility of leadership to someone else. Like they should do that. Instead of being like, what can I do? You know, the JFK, quote, "What can I do for my country?" And like, not, what can it do for me? What can you do to affect this change? That might even make you not happy? I should drop Netflix, then. I should drop this, I should drop that. Or I shouldn't. Because I don't care. You know what I mean? Like, be honest with yourself. I think that, that I wish more people thought of that, or at least had a guide where we could all shut it off at once together. Like we're gonna shut it off for a month and make them come to the table.

Alex Howard  
You think people should not be going to the movies as much, not be streaming as much right now to support the writers and actors? If they do support them?

Kurt Yaeger  
Yeah, I think that if they understood that that would help support, and then it became apparent to everyone that that was actually something to do, I think it would be extremely helpful. Now, will people do it? I don't know.

Lee Pugsley  
Have you seen anyone that's kind of promoted that idea of like, everyone canceled their streamers and stopped going to the movies? Because I agree that people are looking to someone else to take responsibility rather than realizing their own responsibility and ownership that they have the power over. But I wonder if you know, more people were to kind of promote this idea of, if we all do this together, like cancel subscriptions for a month or take a stand and, you know, boycott the movies for a little bit until these deals are made, that will make a statement. Maybe that would bring it more to the forefront of people's minds. Because it would be great if people came to those realizations on their own. But it seems like maybe people need a little bit more coaxing to get there.

Kurt Yaeger  
Yeah, I think you need sort of like the construct of most social media platforms. Like you gotta have like a reinforcing dopamine effect in the brain. Right? Like, you gotta be like, "I'm canceling this for this reason, and I want someone to know about it." People have a hard time doing the right thing or anything, if they're not going to get something out of it. And that's not evil. It's just human nature. Like, I'm not going to pick up trash, right, like outside of my own neighborhood, unless I don't like the way trash looks. If I don't mind trash being out in my neighborhood, I don't care if it's there. So it's gotta, it's gotta be some really valuable way to showcase to somebody why this is important and how they get value out of it. I think that more I've seen, I've seen -- to your first question, I've seen people posting about it. I've seen a few actors and producers saying "We should cancel this" and you know, some other people for political reasons, canceling some of the other streamers. And I've seen some of that stuff around. It's just once the groundswell happens, like no one was gonna give to, I think it was...  It wasn't the March of Dimes it was -- was it cerebral palsy where everyone did the ice bucket challenge? Is that was?

Lee Pugsley  
A let's see, AS, ALS I always get - ALS. Yeah.

Kurt Yaeger  
So yeah, yeah. So ALS, the thing that everyone got out of that was a funny video of dumping ice on their friend saying, "Hey, but we're also givin' money." Like, that was a social media construct where everyone got something out of it. Like, if I asked you to donate $100 to a charity that is going to bring film awareness, and performers with disabilities to be in film and television, you'd be like, "All right," and I never told you the good side of it. I never made you feel good about it. I never showed you the good things we were going to do. You wouldn't give! You'd be like, "Well, I just gave $100 into the black hole, into the ether." So I think that like, you really have to build the model of why people would want to do it on top of it's the right reason.

Alex Howard  
I've also heard the perspective of like, I think it was Kris Carr talking, she's an actress in SAG too. I think she was saying "Don't cancel," because it needs to, they need to show like how much money they can pay. I think if that makes sense. Like, the more people that cancel, the more they'll think like, see, we can afford this.

Kurt Yaeger  
Nah, I take the opposite. Because you don't need current numbers to prove historical numbers. Like you don't need money this month to show what they can pay. Like it's like telling them, say it's like handing someone $100 again and going like, "Please pay me, see I told you, you paid me," you know what I mean? Yeah, you're like, "Hey, remember the last seven years, I paid you $100. Yeah, I just turned that off." Like there's seven years of history of how much they can pay. We don't need to prove that over again. Like that's, I don't see why that's imperative. I say turn off the spigot.

Alex Howard  
There's also that fund. I think Dwayne Johnson gave like, what, seven figures to the relief fund the other day? 

Kurt Yaeger  
Yeah.

Alex Howard  
Last week?

Kurt Yaeger  
Well, look, the majority of Americans don't have $5,000 in a savings account to get them through a hard time. So I'm assuming the majority of actors are in the same boat. You know what I mean? Personally, I think it's bad money management on most people. (laughs) I see it differently. Because I'm like, "Guys, like, stop going to Disneyland. That is a luxury. That is not something you should be doing every year. Like, why are you spending $1,000?" "But we're supposed to have fun!" Not at the expense of your future. Like, what are ya doing? So you know, but at the same time, that is a fact. So you know, people are going to be hurting, because they don't have the money to get them through potentiality of the next six months of a strike. I mean, literally, executives at the streamers said, "Yeah, we're just gonna make this strike go on long enough until the writers and actors are having to lose their homes." Because they know that these actors and writers don't have the funds to get through their financial responsibilities for six months.

Alex Howard  
Do you have a day job next to acting? Or do you primarily act for for living?

Kurt Yaeger  
I only act for a living. I write and produce as well. But I don't do anything else. I haven't since I started to, you know, 15-ish years ago. But I'm also, you know, my father taught me about money management early when I was young. So I got taught lessons about like saving money and what to do with money, and how to spend money and how to think of it differently than most people. And one of the early examples he gave me is like, "Look, let's say you want to buy a new TV. You want to buy one, and the Brand New TV is $3,000. You can do the wrong things or the right things. The wrong thing is to go buy that TV and put it on credit. The wrong thing is to go into your bank account and spend the money and buy the TV. The right thing to do is to from that moment you decide you want a television, to work a certain amount of months, knowing that you're saving money into the future for a television. So let's say you can save 500 bucks towards that television. Which means you know, take you was six months right? So you're like "Okay, it's gonna take me six months to save for this television. One of three things will happen if you do this. One, you'll save for six months, and that television that was $3,000 has gone on sale. So now you're only spending $2500 to get that TV. Whoo! you save some money. Two, the new model of that television came out and it's $3,000. And yeah, I bought the most up to date, technologically advanced television. So it should last you even longer into the future. It's good investment, and you spent your money. Or three, you'll go man, it took a lot of work to save $3,000, I don't need a stinking TV. And you got 3000 more bucks to put in the bank to keep you safe. Yeah, that's the right model of spending. Never use a credit card unless you have the money to pay that credit card off that month. And never ever, ever go into your bank account to pay for anything. Like a big purchase. Unless it's an emergency. Because your bank account is literally supposed to be an emergency fund, not a piggy bank that you can pilfer all the way down to zero. That's it. That's how you live. And I've always lived like that since I was like 14. You live cheaply, you live poorly, a lot of people are like, "Oh, I'm going on vacation." I'm like, "Have fun, I'm going to the park down the street to have a barbecue for free." That's why I don't have another job outside of acting. You know, I mean, like I said, I write and I produce, I raise money, and I sold a show to Sony that I wrote. And then I have a couple of feature films that are with producers right now. And I've made projects and raised money for projects and whatnot. And I make money from that. But that's not really like, if I didn't have acting like I would need to get a job, but acting pays for all the bills.

Alex Howard  
Are you in the WGA as well?

Kurt Yaeger  
I am not because I've not gotten to the place where my shows have gotten to air. So the projects have to actually get through completion. I mean, you could sign up and get it because you sold a movie. But like, I don't need to join a union that I'm -- the same way I didn't join SAG the first couple of jobs I got. Like everyone was like "I gotta join SAG, I gotta join SAG." And I went, "I'm gonna not join SAG until I have to." So I avoided joining SAG as long as I could, so that I could do every single job under the sun. So I try to avoid joining joining unions until I'm really prepared because it's like, I was playing, you know, high school baseball. And everyone's like, "I want to be in the major leagues." And I'm like, "Look, I'm happy playing high school baseball right now, because I'm still learning."

Lee Pugsley  
Yeah, that's where I'm at right now. Like I'm SAG eligible, but I'm waiting to join. I mean, obviously, during this time, I'm not going to join. But, you know, I'm gonna wait to join until, you know, there's a more of a reason to join, I guess if that makes sense.

Kurt Yaeger  
Yeah, I would wait until you have to, until your Must Join, which is I think your third speaking role. If it's still the same.

Lee Pugsley  
Yeah, I think it is very similar now. And, you know, it's like rules are, you know, few and far between for, you know, people that fit the, like blind and low vision quota. So, hopefully that'll change soon. And like, you know, I can start being seen for just like, rules of, you know, any type, you know, that aren't specifically like blind or low vision written. It's just, you know, you're the father, you're the friend, you're the whatever, yeah. And the script doesn't reference the fact that there's a visual impairment or that they're blind. It's just, this is the way of life that they come from that brings, once again, to the table in that way. That's what I hope, that's my hope and that's where I'd love to see the industry go as well in terms of representation is that it's not roles specifically written for specific types of people in that way all the time. But it's just like, let's just bring everyone in and they play the role.

Kurt Yaeger  
Yeah, I think that's where we have to get to, and yet we're very, very, very far away from that.

Alex Howard  
Being in SAG and in your circles, what is the sense of how long you think the strike will go? Or how long are you guys prepping for it to go?

Kurt Yaeger  
Ah, I mean, I really don't know. Everything that everyone is saying is postulation. Because a AMPTP isn't even coming to the table to talk. Do you know what I mean? So I really think that there, let's just say it gets too late October. Well, that is in effect to, basically, until January 1. Because the industry often stops working after Thanksgiving. People still do stuff, but they're like "Nope, I gotta go on vacation, this is my four week window I actually get to spend with my family out of the year." And so it just kind of dies off at that. So if it gets to like November, November 10, we're probably really into it hurtin' wise until January. Which means from a SAG perspective, or a WGA perspective, or even AMPTP, they're like, "Well, I might as well go to January 1." Like, that's what I think. But, dude, I have no idea. I really have no idea.

Alex Howard  
I know, there's a lot of unknowns in the industry. I know people are saying the studios have enough content to last till October, but then they'll be in trouble. You know, there's a lot of rumors going around and things like that. But yeah, it's like, no one's working right now. It's like--

Kurt Yaeger  
Yeah.

Lee Pugsley  
Speculations all across the board. So who, who knows?

Kurt Yaeger  
Yeah. That's what I mean, you know, a lot of people have different hypotheses. They always say theories. And I'm like, "No, it's not a theory unless it's tested. It's a hypothesis." I hate when movies say that, "Oh, what's your theory?" And I'm like, "Oh, gosh, it's not a theory. Dang it. The hypothesis." Anyway. "And before that, it's a postulation, meaning just a thought!" Anyways. That's my, that's my pet peeve for this podcast. I think that like somebody's postulation really is, you know, one that was really interesting was like, all the studios and networks were letting all of the overall deal die because of force majeure, which is like an act of God, which is a union strike is an act of God. Which means they could kill all the deals without having to pay anybody out. So I think that was one definite thing they were doing, because why not? Like, "Hey, we're gonna go to strike, let's go to the end of three months. Well! We've been in this for 90 days, we could do force majeure, let's cancel everyone's overall deals, and then start over." Smart, I would do that as a business person. I'm like, "Okay, great." Which means I can end actors deals, I could end writer's deals, I could end production deals, I could end so many cost inefficient deals that haven't promised what they were supposed to be. And then I could start over. And when I start over as a, as a network or a studio, I can find 20 younger guns and give them overall deals for the same price I was paying for three of the big dogs. If I were studio heads and network people, that's what I would do.

Alex Howard  
You know, they're doing those waivers for A24 and some other independent movies. But like I was, I was talking to Lee before you got on. And I was like, some of those movies are just going to be sold to the streamers to companies in the AMPTP. It's kind of like, I don't know, if some actors are -- I think Viola Davis came out and she dropped out of an indie project to stand in solidarity with the actors. How do you feel about those projects that are still shooting?

Kurt Yaeger  
I think those projects would shut down themselves if SAG AFTRA said "We'll give you a waiver, if you cannot sell to an AMPTP house when it's finished and done and produced." And if that's the case, you know that it's horse malarkey. (laughs) Right, you know that, like -- ahh. Alright, I'll tell you the truth. I think that SAG just like any other organization always protects the people in power. It always does. It doesn't matter because it's the nature of protecting your own. If you don't protect your power base, you lose your own power base. So like, for instance, it's not evil, it's just human nature, I am going to try to find acting and writing roles for professionals with disabilities to help them out before I look for any other class of people because that's where my heart is. So it makes sense that that's what they're doing. However, since they're a union, they should be protecting the lowest among us, at the expense of the highest among us, but they don't, because that's not where they, they don't get their donations, or support, or votes from. And that's just human nature. What they should do is be supporting the littlest actor. Here's the other part of it, though. We're all hypocrites, every single one of us to some capacity. So it's not me pointing the finger at SAG going "You're a hypocrite!" because I am too. So we're all hypocrites for certain reasons, in certain capacities, because humans are tribal. And we like our own tribe, and we try to take care of our own. That's just human nature. So yeah, it's a problem. But at the same time, it's like, "Come on, guys. Come on." So, you know, I think we should call out our own, cleanup our own house before we're worried about somebody else's front yard.

Lee Pugsley  
Fair point, I think that's absolutely valid and would be the best way to go for any of us.

Alex Howard  
Is there a particular project you've done that you're the most proud of, that if someone was, you show people first?

Kurt Yaeger  
Oh, man, that's huge. Because there's so many different reasons I'm proud of different projects. Like I did Another Life on Netflix, which was a lot of fun. I love the people I worked with. And my friend, A.J. Rivera and I are now really, really, really good friends. Like he's coming to my wedding. So I loved working on that project, because I met a really great person. I got a film coming up called Sunrise with Alex Pettyfer and Guy Pierce that we shot in Ireland, and I had a blast on it. Plus, if you look at the credits, I produced it. So I came in and got to produce a Guy Pearce film. Wha-haaat? Like, you know, another checkmark, right? So I'm starting to produce films, I'm raising money for projects. So if there are people out there that have money that are listening to this podcast that want to support disabled people, let's go! I'm your man. I will help and hook you up. And then Sons of Anarchy, man, that was like, kind of like a breakout role. Everyone's like, "Oh my gosh, that amputee actor can actually ride motorcycles better than regular actors!" I'm like, "Yeah." And then I've been on all four NCIS's as a different character, and I'm the first actor on the planet to do that. You know, that came out in Variety, like, three months ago, when I did NCIS Hawaii. I was the first actor, not disabled actor, the first actor to do all four episodes-- or, all four different shows. So there's different reasons. I like all of them. I just did Quantum Leap, and I got to work with a director friend of mine, Avi, who I love working with. Part of the team that I sold the Sony show to has Brandon Sonnier on it, who's the showrunner and he's a buddy of mine. He's on the show. Like he's gonna be leading the show, Brandon Sonnier and Brandon Margolis. And those two are two awesome show runners. So that's going to be good. But I guess if I was going to say my favorite thing anyone can watch is Piranhaconda. A really, really crappy D movie about a Piranha slash Anaconda mixture hybrid creature. And we filmed it in Hawaii. And it's the dumbest Sharknado type film I've ever filmed, which meant it was the funnest film to actually ever make, because it was so stupid that what we did as an actor really didn't matter. And it was just pure fun.

Alex Howard  
That sounds like so much fun. I definitely want to check that out.

Lee Pugsley  
Funny enough, I've seen that movie because I had a friend who was also in that movie. And I remember when he went to Hawaii, and he came back and was talking about the experience.

Kurt Yaeger  
Yeah. Well, we were all there when the tsunami in Japanese hit, in Hawaii. 

Lee Pugsley  
Okay, yeah yeah.

Kurt Yaeger  
It was all chaos. And everyone was freaking out. We're like, "We gotta run! And I'm like, "No, we don't!" They're like "Kurt! Argh! I'm the director. I'm the producer of this film. You're listening to me?" I'm like, "No, no, this isn't a movie anymore. This is real life. Shut up. I'm in charge." And they were like, "Why? Why are you in charge?" And I'm like, "Because I got my Master's in hydrogeology and I understand the USGS warning about the tsunami that's coming. Trust me. It's three hours away. Let's just slowly get our heads together. Let's put this together." And they're like, "Oh, yeah, you're right."

What was your character? Who was your character?

I can't remember the character's name. But I think I made him a character that I based off of, what was the guy in Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas? Hunter S. Thompson. I kind of did that kind of thing. I was like, (mumbling) "This is crazy. Yeah. Well, bat, heh he, bats. You know, that kind of a thing. I was just a scientist, or I think God, no, no, I was an explosives expert. That's what it was. I can't remember the guy's name. 

Lee Pugsley  
So you don't get eaten then or you don't die, right?

Kurt Yaeger  
Dude, no, I die. It's just I was the only character who didn't die because of the Piranhaconda. I died because someone shot me who was getting eaten by the Piranhaconda. I got to work with Michael Madsen on that. And he was just hilarious, dude, I liked that guy. A lot of people are like "He's hard to work with." And I know why they think that, but I think it's just because he's awesome and doesn't care about what people think. And I love people like that. I don't know why I, just get along with them. He's like, "Yeah, this movie sucks." I'm like, "I know it sucks. Let's have fun." He's like, "Oh, you're my kind of people."

I would be remiss if I didn't ask you, did you get to keep your cut from Sons of Anarchy, or did you get to keep anything?

I didn't. I asked and they didn't like it because in their first couple of seasons, they let a few people keep their cuts. And then a couple people were dumb enough to not know about clubs, and we're out wearing them and the clubs take it very seriously if you have a bottom rocker, because that's technically you claiming territory. And if you're out there claiming territory, they're like, "You're not claiming territory, and yeah, this is not your territory." So they take it seriously. So they stopped doing that. Now I knew that in those rules, you know, and so I could have, I would have just kept it and put on my wall. But I thought about stealing it and I'm like, "Nah, should I, shouldn't I?" And I almost did, but I didn't.

Alex Howard  
I got the book. They released that book at the last season where it has like all the deaths in the back and it goes through all the characters. I love that show so much.

Kurt Yaeger  
Nice. 

Alex Howard  
So good.

Kurt Yaeger  
It's a great show, man. Yeah. I was, I did get to keep a Sons of Anarchy ring. Like the ring that everybody wears in Sons, that says Sons on it. And then, you know, a guy in Australia that I was friends with, had a really cool motorcycle company. He was like, the biggest fan of Sons, you know. And I don't try to keep too many trinkets. Because, you know, having my near death experience makes me like give up a lot of like earthly goods, because I know they don't matter. And so I traded him for another ring of his. So he has it, you know, which is kind of cool. So he's pretty stoked, but then I was like, man, maybe I should have kept that one thing. You know? Maybe I'll call him up and try to get it back. Like, "I'll give you money for it." 

Alex Howard  
Yeah.

Kurt Yaeger  
I just want to thank you again, Kurt, for your time and for chatting with us. It's been really fun.

Of course, of course. And I want to extend to you guys you know, an open invitation to reach out to me personally or anytime acting questions, writing questions. Hey, do you know anybody to connect me through to here. Consider me an open conduit, because everybody with disabilities, we all need to stick together to help each other rise in this industry. And I want to make sure that people within, with disabilities out there, realize that if you help other people succeed with disabilities, it is not going to limit the opportunities for you. It is actually going to make more opportunities for you in the long run. So help other disabled creative people get work.

Lee Pugsley  
Yeah, I completely align with that philosophy as well, that it's a win for all of us.

Alex Howard  
Yeah, no, me too, definitely. And I will definitely hit you up and take you up on that. And we will also link to the fund that we were referring to that you can donate to the actors and you know, the struggling actors that do make their living off of acting and they can't act right now. So we'll link to that in the description of the podcast as well.

Lee Pugsley  
And if you guys out there have any other questions for us based on any conversation topics that we've discussed with Kurt today, or anything else that comes to mind, feel free to email us at DarkRoomFilmCast@gmail.com Once again that's DarkRoomFilmCast@gmail.com.

Alex Howard  
Yeah, and thank you so much again, Kurt for coming on. I'm also glad we got to find like, not only we were looking for just one in SAG, but I was like no, I want to find someone in SAG with a disability because you know, that's what our show is. That's what we promote. So it's, I'm glad that we got to cover both bases.

Kurt Yaeger  
Ya, no, glad to come on, man. I'll come on multiple times. I'll help out however I can like. Like, you know, like 100%. You know, other podcasts and television shows and whatever else like reaching out and utilizing my disability for their advantage. We should be reaching out to ourselves for our advantage. I appreciate it. Keep up the great work and let me know how I can promote it.

Lee Pugsley  
And we also want to shout out Matt Lauterbach and All Senses Go for making transcripts of this episode, and all previous episodes possible. Thank you guys so much for listening and have a wonderful day.

Alex Howard  
Yeah, see you guys in the next one.

Kurt Yaeger  
Later! 

Transcribed by https://otter.ai