Lee and Alex chat with Michele Spitz, a speaker, philanthropist, audio, describer, and grant provider for filmmakers. In this episode, Michele discusses her journey into the audio description world, and the way she has been able to advance accessibility for blind and low vision viewers.
Michele Spitz's Woman of Her Word website:
https://www.womanofherword.com/
Lee and Alex chat with Michele Spitz, a speaker, philanthropist, audio, describer, and grant provider for filmmakers. In this episode, Michele discusses her journey into the audio description world, and the way she has been able to advance accessibility for blind and low vision viewers.
Michele Spitz's Woman of Her Word website:
https://www.womanofherword.com/
Lee Pugsley
What's up film world? Welcome back to Episode 20 of The Dark Room, where two blind cinephiles illuminate the sighted. I'm Lee Pugsley.
Alex Howard
I'm Alex Howard.
Lee Pugsley
And this is a podcast hosted by two legally blind guys for film lovers of all abilities. We have a very special guest today. Alex, why don't you tell us who we have on the show?
Alex Howard
Yeah, so today we have Michele Spitz on the show. She is a Woman of Her Word, is her company. Michele does narration for audio description and also gives grants to help fund certain audio description projects. She wears many hats and has a big hand in the disability community. Michele has also brought me on panels at Sundance and has taught the Respectability Lab. So she has a big hand in the audience description community. Welcome, Michele.
Michele Spitz
Thank you.
Alex Howard
So Michele, I think we wanted to start off with like, how did you get into this space? I know you're not low vision yourself. But how did you discover audio description and get into narrating and doing all the advocacy that you're doing?
Michele Spitz
So, interesting: Almost a decade ago, I was asked by a friend of mine who works in live theater with people with disabilities, to meet a gentleman who had been at Universal Studios and was retiring after 25 years of post production, who wanted to be sure that media and film were both accessible to low vision / blind and deaf and hard of hearing patrons. And at the time, I had no idea what that was. And furthermore, shortly after that, he had asked me to go audition at a company where the owner of the company and the engineers were also low vision and blind. So I went and had the audition. And I had no idea what that was. I have a background in broadcasting. And it was an extraordinary experience. I came to really love what that work was, what it meant to me. And it was a perfect sort of liaison to prior 10 years of philanthropy that I was involved in, supporting multiple communities, marginalized disabled veterans, seniors, you name it, as patrons in the art and/or as artists themselves. And then I was given this extraordinary opportunity to make an art form that would be accessible for low vision and blind communities. And that became my passion. And I moved away from my prior career and made this my entire existence. So I decided that there wasn't enough of it. We didn't have sort of universal access in many areas. I work in many areas, I work in museums, I work in nonprofit areas with audio description, film, theater, I work in so many areas of this, and I'm also a producer of audio description. So I produce it, I narrate it, I hire talent, I have a team. And it grew enormously over this last decade. And it morphed into teaching and public speaking and consulting at film festivals, and so many different areas. And this has become, because of it, it has become more prevalent now. But in the time in which I entered this area, I was knocking on doors that were either closed in my face, and/or they were partially open and now have become fully open. And I trailblazerd. I met every single person I could. I traveled extensively, educated everyone I could in the arts at large, in film, in media, about why this needs to be universal. And that the same sort of fair play, as I call it, in access, if you are going to only consider captions for low, pardon me, for, you know, hard of hearing and deaf communities, how is it that we've left out this other language for the low vision and blind communities? And so a lot of people who are not on board, or should I say educated, or financially capable of bringing this on. So my journey has been one of extraordinary growth in this field. And I've had a very big hand at it. So I'm so proud to see where we are today and where we've come.
Alex Howard
Yeah, I think one of the points of this podcast is to create awareness around audio description because it is not as common as captions. And, you know, there's still this myth that blind people don't watch movies. So we're, that's really the main part of this podcast is trying to let the blind have our part of the movie fandom as a whole. So yeah, we're trying to educate people as well. But I think one of the big things that makes you unique from other describers is that you actually give grants to independent films that help fund audio description. So if you could talk a little bit about that, and what independent filmmakers or topics qualify for the grants that you give?
Michele Spitz
So, yes, and this was part of the philanthropic endeavor of what I've done. So over -- I've done probably over 130 films at this point in the last 10 years. Um, 85% of those, I have funded the audio description and produced it. So a lot of the films I've worked on are disability subject based. Then I also work in very high profile theatrical releases with certain production companies, and I give them grants ongoing, I have done that for quite a while. And what was most productive in this process was instating a grant program in different organizations. For example, I instated one in Women In Film L.A., then broadened awareness, and a person who was getting finishing film funds would also get my audio description fund. So they have to become aware of this asset, right? It was sort of a really interesting way of approaching it, sort of a multi prong approach. For many years now, I think I'm going on, oh, gosh, many years, maybe eight years, New York Women Film and Television, annually, I give finishing funds for a film about disability to a filmmaker. So they understand their film can't just be about disability, not making it accessible. And I've done the same for ReelAbilities for many years. And I also did it for Superfest, the disability film festival in San Francisco. And then as I said, I, outside of that I work with another big production company. And I work on some very, very large titles, and then people know about and they come back to me. And as you, as with any person who has been the industry long enough, much of my work is now by referral. And in this process, what's amazing is that the individuals who worked with me over these years have learned the importance of it. And because of that, they are now putting that into play in their film budget, right? They're putting a line in their budget. And I realized at that point that that one person was the domino effect to the next person, to the next person, to the next person. And if that was the ultimate end result of my initial goal, then I have succeeded. And in fact, I have, so this continues to go on. And it, you know, I also pivot in different directions, to be sure that different areas are also covered that otherwise may not have been. So I've been part of those processes, sort of the infancy of something, or when they're well into it. So it sort of moves in that direction. And the grants are fairly substantial as far as the production, but a lot of that is my time, my asset management, I coach my clients into being sure that asset is used in distribution, I help them write disclosures to put into their contracts if necessary. And that is the agreement of every person that works with me. That they're going to take this journey with me, they're going to learn what it is, they're going to understand the importance, they're going to sign off on scripts, they're going to be part of it with me. And by the time they've had this asset, they realize there's such a value to it, and then they're endeared to what it is. That grant really sort of represented.
Alex Howard
So in case people aren't aware, when she says asset, when you deliver a project, the assets are captions, audio description, there are many different parts of it. So having the asset of audio description in your project, and you're educating people that this is important. And then hopefully you were saying, when they go into future projects, they bring that with them. But most people don't know about audio description. So educating is really important. Lee, did you have any questions for Michele?
Lee Pugsley
I was just going to touch on what you guys were both saying, is that, I love your approach, Michele, in the way that you educate people in a very hands on sort of experiential way, not just you know, read this pamphlet or read this amount of information, but you're like, I'm willing to work with you. I'm willing to help you learn as long as you're open to it. And I think that that's such a beautiful thing that you do and very unique in the way that you do it. So I really commend that. On the note of grants. Do a lot of filmmakers apply for these grants now? And how has that kind of changed over the years for you?
Michele Spitz
So that's a very interesting question. So over time, because I was one of probably the first and ever did this, there are now for example, film festivals that are providing audio descriptions that's been funded by different individuals, families, corporations. As you probably well know, HBO has a strong awareness around disability inclusion and accessibility now, so they might come in, and they'll represent this or maybe they'll do that. But the idea is that it's changing, and people have come to me and asked me well, how do you curate that? How do you, how do you do your line budget? How do you position it? And I've given people sort of a platform of which they can work off of or bounce off of. And I think right now we're gonna see more of this. We do need more of it. So part of where I'm at, and I have not formally announced this yet, but I'm happy to touch upon it now. Part of where I'm going to be pivoting is, as a philanthropist, and as a producer of audio description and an advocate, I'm going to be going out now and doing public speaking to other philanthropists and corporations about raising more awareness and money to help fund the arts and accessibility and the world of disability at large, because many people are not aware of what it is, and how does this work. And that includes, for example, live theater, that includes the museum world, that includes everything, right? Including film. So if, for example: my work is mostly word of mouth. People will call me and ask me, "Oh, would you consider this?" Or a film festival will send me 5, 6, 7 films, "Will you choose?" And I do. So there's already sort of a pattern in place that's been here for a long time. But then someone will recommend somebody else and that person will recommend somebody else. Or I'll hear about a project. And I'll approach somebody and say, "I want to be attached to it." So please keep in mind, and bear in mind, there's only so many grants I can provide a year, because they are costly and timely. And my voices is, of course, for free. But it's at a cost of all my time and effort that I put into production, I have a full production team. So I think that in the not too distant future, the more awareness that's built, we will find additional funding to be sure that audio description's included. Whether when it gets to a film festival, like a disability film festival, and the funding is already in place. Or, for example, I can't reference specifically, but I can say abstractly, I'm currently talking to a very large film festival. And I am perhaps going to be talking to their funders that are already in place about allocating some of their funding specifically for that festival for audio description and why. And this is sort of a new approach that I have decided, I think is worthy. As a philanthropist, I can speak to other philanthropists. I'm not asking for money, I am a philanthropist. And I'm a producer of audio descriptions. So I'm really, they're speaking to someone like themselves, right? And that way, they have an understanding as to what I've chosen to put my money in my mouth in, right? I might attach my voice to. And at that point, I think it's charismatic, and it's compassionate, and it's heartfelt, and it's very, very authentic. So I think my goal now, moving forward -- part of my goal -- will be exactly what we're talking about, is to raise that bar and raise more funding. And then it becomes more mainstream. And all these people -- and you know, Alex is talking about a lot of people that don't know about it. Well, you're correct. There are a lot of people in the world that don't know about it. The majority of people know more about captions, because they'll turn on something like I don't know, the news. And they'll see open captions, you know, going across the screen, or they're in a bar and the volume is turned down but you see the open captions. We need to make this as, as, you know, as an awareness built in at the exact same equal space as people know about captions. And some people don't even know about captions. And that audio description is equally the same value, and the same importance. So this is part of where we need to go. And this is part of where I believe my energy needs to be directed. Because I am one of those people that started that type of funding and creative, put film grants in place. So it could be that I say to somebody, "Well, we have another organization that I'd like to see a new grant program put in place for finishing funds for film, or for a live play, performances, stage performances, museum exhibits that may not otherwise have the funding." It's really across the board. And I would say to a funder, whether it's a corporation or whether it's an individual or a family philanthropist, "Choose what interests you. What do you resonate with?" And at that point, I do believe I'm going to be quite successful in, should I say, advocating for and probably implementing some pretty substantial funding that will go towards this area.
So do you think the lack of independent filmmakers having audio description on their movies at the festival level is due to unawareness of it? Or do you think it's a budgetary reason? Because they, I've heard rumors that like, they don't want to do it because they know if Netflix buys it, they'll do their own track, even if they already have one?
Yep. So this is a, this is a very, this is a very sort of complicated, convoluted arena, right? So I also consult with film festivals. And I consulted with Tribeca this year. And I was in the background working with the post production department and creating the document that went out to filmmakers requesting that they submit their films with audio description in addition to captions, and the why. And they did receive a substantial amount more films than they had the year before. Now, it's not where it needs to be. But we know that every year that will grow. And to answer your question, no, we have to go outside of independent films, because this is only one part of what we're talking about. Okay? So when we talk about the film world, or media or television, or gaming, or you know, AR/VR, all the things that are going on in our world today, there's going to be a number of reasons that content is going to come in and/or not come in with accessibility. One is, the film festival itself is not requesting it, and/or saying this is what we require. The other problem is, producing that asset is very time consuming, and to get it in at the deadline that the film festival requires it, which is usually at least a month in advance, could be problematic. In addition to the funding to make it happen, where do we go? Now. When I worked with Tribeca, I assigned different production companies -- I consulted with them, said "Would you like to be part of this document?" They were going to be the designated providers on that form that people could call. So you don't just say to people, "We need you to do this," you say these are funders you can go to." And by the way -- and I again, I loosely will respond to the cost of those assets varied based on those that I referred in that document, it was a range, okay? And that gave people an opportunity to go in whatever area they wanted to. Now, when we're talking about commercial films, and major theatrical releases, a lot of them do not come in with the audio description either. And it just wasn't a priority at the time. So -- and then maybe they did a little bit of refining of the film later. But if a film is going to get an audience award, and they'd like low vision and blind people to participate in the voting, well, by all means, how do they do that if there isn't audio description, okay? So we have issues around that. We have issues, of course, that also are relevant to open captions. For example, Tribeca did offer open captions for any film about Deaf content, or made by person who was hard of hearing or deaf. And they gave them the option to, you know, have open captions, they have to embed those on screen, that's more cost, other than just closed captions. But, you know, we have to be sensitive this and there's, there's an awareness being built there, you know, there's a, there's a layer of, of should I say, activism going on, and implementation. And so we, you know, we talked about South by Southwest, they're very good about it. Sundance is, you know, one of the premieres that started with you know, sort of launching this kind of awareness. Tribeca is in that space now. And then, of course, the disability film festivals were long there, for a long time. And, and others, right? The UK might have more awareness and built in about audio description as for the assets. So I'm going to turn it around this way: So I reverse this, since I consult in this area. I would say to filmmakers from the get go, as that project is about to go out the door, "At every best effort you have, have the audio description, the captions already in place. So when it goes out the door to the exhibition, and distribution space" -- exhibition, meaning, you know, film festivals and what have you, and premieres and then going into the distribution space -- "that you already have these assets in place. But with that in mind, you have to also build that into your distribution, you have to be sure they are accepting it, they have to do their own QC, whoever they're working with, some may dispose of it, they may say this is not from our post, or this is not in the league we're looking for, who knows what their reasons are, and they have the right to have their own reasons. But you can make your best effort to say "This was done professionally. This was done at the specs we hope you need. If not that particular provider, producer will amend it accordingly." So for example, let's use PBS for an example. I've done a fair amount of projects in it, for PBS. Now PBS has their own specs, they usually need them well in advance of the actual airtime on broadcast. And if that filmmaker or the other person said "Oh, I'm gonna turn that over to the post department," didn't say, "Well, we need to let them know that well in advance," you'll lose that asset and it will be recreated. Now I would hate to see something recreated when it was already paid for before. And that's even if PBS paid for it. Because if you chose the vendor, you chose someone, or you got a grant, or you chose someone like me to produce it and you went through that process, you wouldn't want to put that in the garbage. Because you went through that process, and you approved that, and you're endeared to it. So there is a lot of reasons that things may not end up at the film festival, or they may not end up somewhere else. And when they defer to, "Oh, well, when I get distribution, Netflix will pay for it" -- well, that's, that could be the case. That isn't always the case, by the way. And again, I can't comment on any of that. But there are, there are loopholes in part of what we're talking about. And it varies greatly. So there's multiple reasons but I also have to be cognizant, and I have to be, you know, very clear, that it's true. If people prefer to wait, they don't have the funding, they don't have the time, well then? Should they get distribution (that's if they get it) -- and maybe that company will put the onus on them to fund it, or maybe they will absorb it, there is no guarantee of any of that. It depends on what they've negotiated in their contract. Okay? So and again, that company may say, "Well, we only take assets from a preferred vendor that's been legally vetted," blah, blah, blah. But I would say more likely than not, if it's a very high quality asset that's been produced, hopefully, that will go through to the finish line. But remember, we're still in process, we're still in that lane, we're creating, we're building awareness. So the louder, the louder the voices are that talk about this, the more important it is. But the best advice I can give to anybody is, if they're willing to take this advice, "At your best effort, try to make it happen upfront. And be aware that it may or may not be taken down the road, but hopefully it will be." But it's going to require somebody internally in that group of producers and directors and post production people to say "We have it, we want it, we this is the one we want, we care about this, please use this asset, if we need to QC it and amend it, we will do whatever we need to do." And that's my personal experience. Other people may have had other experiences. But as a grant provider and a producer, we turn out pretty high quality projects. And I could say rarely, in my entire 10 years has my asset been turned down. Now, it may turn out that up front a producer will come to me and say "I want you on this project, but it's a so and so project," okay, meaning it's a big, you know, post house project. And they won't accept anything outside of their wheelhouse. They only want to do this internally. By the way, internally might meet AI, which doesn't make me happy. But I have to defer to that. And at that point, I have to step back. But that is such a rare situation in my case. But I also you know, I have to be, I have to be comfortable with, you know, whatever it is that people are engaging or coming across.
Alex Howard
And for people who don't know, QC stands for quality control. So when an audio description track is either written completely, or sometimes is voiced completely too, they'll have someone go through and check it to make sure it's actually accurate. And then they'll go in and make changes accordingly. And one other thing before I turn it over to Lee, I wanted to touch on, it's -- we're getting to the point now where I feel like, movies with open captions, they're like, "Oh, we need to make sure this is a movie about deaf people. So we need open captions. Or this is a movie about blind people. So we need audio description." Okay, that's cool. But like, we want to watch more movies, more than just movies about blind people. Like we want other things too.
Michele Spitz
Yeah, all media. All media.
Lee Pugsley
Yeah, different walks of life. Yeah.
Michele Spitz
All media should be, all media should be made accessible. That's the bottom line. And a huge percentage now is, if you go into the movie theater, there's a very tiny percentage. Maybe it's more likely a foreign title that came in without description because it'd have to be recreated in, you know, in English. But for the most part, yeah, there were days I used to go to the movie, and I'm a cinephile. I go to the movies all the time. And I would, I would, you know, I would test and see if the equipment's working. Or I would, you know, I would come and sort of anonymously and say, "Hmm." But I can tell you it 10 years ago, when I started this, oh, I'd say probably a third of them were audio described. Now, three-thirds of them, you know, or three quarters of them are audio described. So you know what I mean by that? So now we're looking at something quite different. We are we are experiencing this in a way that it's a, it's a much smaller percentage. And I know which distributors are the ones. And I again, I don't, I think we don't need to talk about who they are. It looks rather inappropriate and politically incorrect, when you walk into a movie theater and, you know, 80% of their content, or 90% of their content is audio described. And then there's a handful that happened. And it's always the same producers are should I say distributors rather.
Lee Pugsley
I wanted to go back to in touch on something you mentioned, which was AI. And I'm just curious to know, in this climate that we're living in, AI is affecting everyone. You know, and it can affect people positively or negatively, it can affect, you know, the creative space positively or negatively in different ways. So for you, doing your work with consulting and working with companies for audio description and other assets, how has AI changed the game? Or how is it changing the game for you?
Michele Spitz
So for me, it doesn't really affect me personally, because I'm going to work on one to one with my clients. But in the larger space, again, I always want to be diplomatic and I want to be, I want to be objective as opposed to subjective. Look, I am not the consumer of this media, your community is. And really, there was so many years in history where you were all listening to synthetic voicing for all purposes, right? And then at some point in history, the art form of live describers came in, in many platforms, right? And many different art forms. Now, there will be people who are perfectly okay with synthetic voices, there are going to be people who absolutely do not want that. I think it's a preference. But the reality of what's happening in our world, whether we like it or not, is that the cost factor for synthetic voicing, compared to humans, perhaps might be more cost effective for people on a budget or people that are looking for something a little bit different, or they're, you know, they're basing it off of a cloud program, and they're able to do editing within a cloud program. And then they can edit synthetic voicing easier or what have you. You know, there's many reasons this happens. And it's not really my wheelhouse, because I don't enter into that area. But for -- if it was a matter of live audio description, as opposed to none, okay? And the only budget accommodated synthetic voicing, well, then I would imagine that the community would say "We'll take synthetic voicing, because we need description no matter what." There's a lot of ways to sort of parcel out what we're talking about. And no matter what we do, it's still going to be part of our future. And then, of course, you know, AI can duplicate people's voices, they could take my voice, and they could duplicate my voice. I don't want that to happen. But they could. And this is part of the AI story. And we all know what this is all about. And then the synthetic voice is a whole nother thing. And then there are other companies that use a combination of synthetic voices, and real voices, and then they kind of sew it together. And they engineer it together. And it kind of sounds a little of both, you know, there's just so many ways. My personal preferences -- I've worked very hard at this art form. I value it, I treasure my voice and what I do in this and what I turn out. I would be very sad, if you know, I wasn't able to do this in the future in this arena. And I would be very sad for those consumers of what I do not to have access to my voice and what I do. But the future will tell its own story. It will just be what it's going to be. But you in the end, both of you are really the end users and the deciding factors and the advocates for what you want for yourselves.
Alex Howard
I completely agree. Like, I prefer an actual person describing in my audio description. But if it's a choice between none or synthetic, I would rather have synthetic than none at all. If you know, if it's an independent movie, and they're really struggling for money, yeah, do this synthetic so we can at least get something. I also wanted to ask you, Michele, we were talking at Sundance in 2021 about... We had someone on I think they were from a university in New York.
Michele Spitz
Yeah, that's Alice Elliot, NYU, in the film school.
Alex Howard
Yeah. So we've made a big point. And I thought it was really interesting that if we can start teaching audio description in film school.
Michele Spitz
That's right.
Alex Howard
That will trickle down to future filmmakers and more.
Michele Spitz
That's correct.
Alex Howard
So I want you to push a little bit on that.
Michele Spitz
Yeah, absolutely. So again, I was sort of ahead of the curve there, doing that. I mean, in other words, there are other entities that have been teaching for a long time. But I would go into the universities, and I would say, "Let's, let's instate, this awareness, let's do a guest lecture." I've done this at Emerson, I've done it at San Francisco State, I've done it at NYU. So I mean, I've done a lot of places. I'll be doing it again, very shortly. I do find that it's really productive. And often, most of my students don't know anything about it. They learn about it, and they're very fascinated by it. And I know that if I planted that seed then, that they will never forget it. And I just think this is where we need to make sure it's done. And I think more and more people are doing it, whether -- I also educated, I did a huge presentation for all the staff of the entire film school for NYU, and talked about why they need to impart this information to the entire school, not just one class, right? Of film. So, you know, I also was aware that audio description was more or less taught in the performing arts arena than it was in film school. Because the performing arts of course, they have description, you know that's there. They have the captioning bars that are there, so and so forth, and what have you. So I found it kind of interesting that it was taught more prominently in that arena than it was in film and television. So you are correct. I think it should be mandated. I think it should be part of every curriculum. I think it should not even just be an elective. It should be a prerequisite for anything that's going on in film, school, anything in television broadcasts, what have you. And by the way, I've also taught at Montclair and Montclair University is in the process now of teaching audio description writing. They've talked about possibly doing an accredited program or something, they're trying to figure it out, what's gonna work best. But they are definitely... And they have a film festival there as well. And Emerson college does, too, I think. They are rooted in this awareness. And so that's the kind of thing we want to see. But if for some reason, you know, people aren't doing the accredited programs like that, I still say it should be a prerequisite course, if you want to put it in, you know, like any other, any other college courses you're taking, you know, often we have to take theory and we say, "What are we going to do with theory?" Okay, well, consider it something in theory. It's not really theory, its application, but make it part of a prerequisite. I think if that were done, the future of media and accessible media will change the game.
Alex Howard
It would be great, even if they were just like, folded it into your senior project and be like, "In your senior project, you need to provide these assets of captions and audio description for all of your projects before you can get a grade.
Michele Spitz
Some of them are doing that in a little bit of a different way, but not dissimilar. I've seen that also. It might be an elective course, or what have you. And they think, "Oh, that's kind of interesting." And then they're required to create the audio description. So that's not uncommon, either. There are big tech companies right now, again, I'm not gonna reference to anyone specifically. But there are tech companies that are out there putting together educational programs that are then going out to the ethers. So I think more people have their hand at this now than they did before. And again, at some point, the absolute pipe dream would be that it was part of every program, no matter what state, no matter what country you're in, for media across the board.
Lee Pugsley
I guess one other question that came to mind for you, Michele, and I, you have touched on aspects of this. But if there's anything more specific, I guess, that comes to mind in terms of... With the work that you do, what are some of the challenges you encounter with it? I know that we've talked about, you know, like, lack of education can be one of them. So you need to educate them. You know, financial constraints with the people you're working with can be one. Beyond that, though, are there any other challenges that you encounter that you've had to kind of navigate in different ways?
Michele Spitz
You know, so I think I'm gonna I'm gonna reference here to the Academy Awards. Um, I am the person that consulted behind the scenes for four months for the first audio described Academy Awards. And I offered the funding to make that happen, and so and so forth. That was quite a maze to make come to fruition. And eventually, after that, all the award shows now are becoming audio described. The Emmys, The Tonys you name it.
Alex Howard
The SAG Awards.
Michele Spitz
Yep, all of them. I was also a consultant for the SAG Awards, internal SAG Awards. There's a lot I did behind the scenes that not not necessarily everyone knew about, because I have to work behind the scenes to try to move the dial, right? We didn't know if that dial is going to really move. But I am very proud of that type of work. But I will tell you internally, the problems that happen or the obstacles that happen is that maybe the right hand doesn't know what the left hand is doing, or the network versus the program itself has less control. And then maybe the network has more control. And then decision making changes and results change. But there is a maze in which we all have to work through. And it's the same thing with film projects. We're talking about distributors, and we're talking about exhibitors. I think the biggest challenge -- and I've learned to navigate it very well, I've also had to separate myself from the end result of it, because it may not always turn out the way I want it to but I've done my very best -- is that we get as many people on the same page in the same room. And if we don't, cracks happen, right? Things fall through the cracks. And then you've done all this work, and then something else falls through, or that person didn't know, or that person didn't tell that person. I would say for me personally, that has been the most, probably the most challenging aspect of the work that I do. But remember, I'm not just a narrator, I'm not for hire like that. I am in the world of production, and I'm in the world of all of it, and then I'm funding it on top of it. So that's where I come into play. It could be a streaming outlet, that person wasn't made aware in advance that that client was my client. And then this is not something they're necessarily comfortable with, or they can't accept a grant or this than the other. So again, I'm not going to point out anything in particular, but this is this would be my personal experience. But the longer I've been doing this, the longer I accept the outcome because I know there are many ways in which different things are happening. But I'd like us all to be on the same page. I'd like to see somebody come in and take an official position at a company and say they are the access coordinator, so that they are the person that we are talking to, right? Whether it's, you know, a company that does productions, you know, all the time, they're working on several projects all the time. "Oh, can you be sure that asset," you know, the access asset coordinator is on top of this, they've followed the assets, it went to every distribution platform, which again, are other links in the chain that get broken. So let's say for example, I've worked on something really hard, I funded something. And I saw that the filmmaker got distribution, but they probably got a little bit nervous because they knew that the power was in the hands of the distributor. And they forgot to tell them, "Oh, gosh, I don't want to just to go on the theatrical run. But we need to be in the distribution streaming. Oh oh, by the way, we also want to be sure it goes on the, you know, the travel app, you know, rather, the platform, and that it gets on airplanes and trains. Oh, gosh." And then I have a blind colleague that might say they were on the plane, and "Oh, my god, your film, I know you worked on that, you have, you have credits on screen for it. But you know, the audio description wasn't on the plane." I said, "What?! I'm so upset." So I have to I really coach my clients. And I say, "If you get this asset, you've got to, you've got to honor it, you've got to treat it with all the power you have. And be sure you understand where it goes. And don't let the distributor make all those decisions for you. Because you might have to educate them too." So that's really my answer to you. Because all the rest of it is kind of easy breezy for me now. And 10 years into this, I've put my entire heart into this area. And I really, I've sort of come across all, all sorts of areas in this arena. And I would say that's probably the most challenging for me. But it's not impossible. But it takes more work, and takes more advocacy.
Lee Pugsley
That makes sense. I mean, clear communication, and getting everyone on the same page goes a long way. Even speaking, you know, from my creative experience as a director or part of a production team on you know, whether it's a film production or a theatrical production, is just like, as long as the right hand can know what the left hand is doing, it's, you know, simple, but it can make such a big difference, too
Michele Spitz
It can. It most certainly can.
Alex Howard
Um, I wanted to ask you, I know, to a lot of our listeners and other blind people who use audio description, um, narrators are like celebrities to us, because they're like, "Oh, my God, we hear your voices all the time." So I wanted you to, can you name some well known titles you're known for? But also, what are the titles you're like the most proud of?
Michele Spitz
Oh, wow. Oh, gosh, I get asked this question all the time. You know, I love every project I work on, I have to tell you, I'm endeared to everything, especially when you fund it. Because you've chosen it. Right? You've chosen that media, you've chosen that client, you've chosen that content to stand behind. And every time I finish a project, my heart is so full, it's-- I really have to say that in all honesty. I have loved for example, I'm currently working on two projects, which will -- I can't say too much other than I'll talk about titles or subjects -- they will be coming out at some point. I just finished audio describing the new Shari Lewis and Lambchop documentary. And it's a knockout. It's an absolute knockout. And I'm also going to be working on the Gene Wilder documentary. I recently did Lucy and Desi last year, not the one with Javier Bardem, but the documentary, which was just fantastic. Um, you know, I've worked on a lot of titles about disability that are tremendous. And Crutch was a wonderful film. Yeah, Best Summer Ever was great. I mean, and then there's another one I just recently did, which premiered at Tribeca, about Special Olympics. I worked on the Dan Rather documentary that just premiered at Tribeca. There's just so many titles, so many different films. And I've said this before, and people have interviewed me so many times, and I can't help but say this again. Because not, maybe the listeners that have listened to that interview are gonna listen to this interview. If you've heard it before, then you're going to hear it again. There's nothing more rewarding for me personally, than to take on a project and to get up close and personal with those people featured in the project and/or the makers of that project. And then finally meet them in person at a screening. My heart, I literally walk in the room and I tell you every single time, I get teary eyed and I just -- I get goosebumps. Because what I chose to attach myself to and share their story in as best a reality and honest space that I can convey it to the low vision and blind community, that my best efforts, that that story meant so much to me to take on, and then to share for your community. I don't think there's anything more rewarding.
Lee Pugsley
I can only imagine what that moment would be like to meet those people that you know, you've been describing or that you've been working on their project for so long. Yeah, that has to be such a magical moment.
Michele Spitz
Yeah, magic. That's a good word. It is magic. And I do feel that this, I have been very fortunate that the universe planted this career path in this field, you know, philanthropic path, in my sphere. And I feel, I feel so lucky and so fortunate that I've had this opportunity over this last decade. I wouldn't have imagined that my life would have gone in this direction, and this would have come to my life. And I'm almost 60 years old. So really, I tell everybody, "It's never too late to find your place in the world, to find your space, to find your passion." I was 49 when I found it, and what an honor. And what a beautiful community to serve, by the way.
Alex Howard
And we are really thankful as well, because honestly, if I were born 20 years earlier, I'd be SOL with my passion. And I'd be like, "Oh, I guess I can't watch movies, then." So like, you know. [Laughing]
Michele Spitz
Yep.
Alex Howard
But no, I'm very thankful that all of this exists too.
Michele Spitz
Wonderful, wonderful. Well, I'm honored to have been on the podcast, I'm delighted to speak to both of you. And I can only ask that collectively, we all keep marching forward, we keep asking for what we need to see, you know, transform the space we're in now. And I'm fairly certain in the next decade, this is going to be a very different space. We are going to be in a much more accessible world with much more awareness. And I for one will keep stomping my feet and opening doors and prying open doors and doing what I do and funding when I can and finding others to additionally help fund it now.
Lee Pugsley
It's definitely a team effort. And like you said, we all work together on this, we all advocate and educate in the ways that we're able to and, you know, little by little progress is being made. And I agree with you that I think it will continue to be made. And 10 years from now, it's exciting to think about where we'll be. And I just want to commend you, once again, Michele, for the work that you're doing, just for-- The passion that you have is very evident for what you do. And your heart of care and compassion for the communities that you serve, is -- it just rings out so clearly, even from this interview. And I thank you so much for the ways that you're helping to advance things for all of us. It's definitely very significant.
Michele Spitz
Thank you. Thank you so much. I'm really, I'm honored to even hear that. And that's what, that's what makes my world go round.
Alex Howard
Yeah, thank you so much, Michele. And I really want to encourage any other any listeners out there sighted or unsighted. if you haven't tried audio description, to try it. Thank you for listening to the podcast, because that means that you are at least curious about it. And remember, especially for non sighted people, like, advocate for yourself. Like if you are in theater, and it's not working, or if there's a streaming service that doesn't have it, like stomp your feet, make yourself known, go make sure they do the description device right. Email the streaming service and be like, "I want to watch this, but I can't." Like, if you don't speak up, you know, if they don't hear from more people, they're not going to change. So, you know, we all need to be advocates in this.
Michele Spitz
Absolutely, absolutely. And if anybody wants to reach out to me, you're welcome to if you have questions, if you'd like to learn more about audio description, or education or anything at all, or consulting, you're welcome to contact me. I always welcome anybody who wants to. My website is WomanOfHerWord.com. And my email is Michele@WomanOfHerWord.com. So you are welcome to reach out to me anytime. And I look forward --
Alex Howard
It's Michele with one 'l', right?
Michele Spitz
That's correct. Thank you for correcting that. And I look forward to staying in touch with everybody. Thanks so much to both of you.
Lee Pugsley
Thank you so much for being here, Michele, and thank you everyone out there for listening. If you have any questions or comments on anything that we discussed today, feel free to email us at DarkRoomFilmCast@gmail.com Once again, that's DarkRoomFilmCast@gmail.com. And we also want to take a moment to shout out Matt Lauterbach and All Senses Go for making transcripts of this podcast episode possible as well as all previous episodes.
Alex Howard
And you can also follow us on Instagram @DarkRoomFilmCast. And I also want to let everyone know that on John Stark's YouTube channel who was on the Chris Nolan episodes, his YouTube channel is Mac the Movie Guy, M-A-C. Lee and I will be doing Oscar shows with him live every, I think it's every Sunday. He's gonna try and do it every week, but we'll see how often we get to it. So Lee and I will be switching off weekly on shows to predict the Oscars for 2024. So tune into that.
Lee Pugsley
Yeah, and find out if our predictions are correct. Well, thank you guys so much for listening, and we'll see you here next time on The Dark Room.
Alex Howard
Take care guys.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai