Ep. 24: The Accessible World Of Disney - Part 2: Animated Films

Alex and Lee continue their celebration of the accessible world of Disney with part 2 focusing on Disney animated films. They review the latest Disney animated feature “Wish” and share their favorite animated movies from the Disney cannon.

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Transcript

Lee Pugsley
And welcome back to the Dark Room, where two blind cinephiles illuminate the sighted. I'm Lee Pugsley.

Alex Howard
I'm Alex Howard.

Lee Pugsley
And this is a Podcast for film lovers of all abilities hosted by two legally blind guys. So today we are continuing our part two of The Accessible World of Disney. Seeing as it's the 100 year celebration of Disney, we wanted to celebrate Disney animation. A few months ago, we were doing a celebration of Disney live action films, and we gave you our top ten Disney live action films. Today we're going to talk about the 100th year animated film, which is Wish, and then we're also going to go through our top ten Disney animated films. And another reason that we are doing this Disney series -- again, this is going to be part two of five -- is because we also want to celebrate the ways that Disney has brought accessibility to blind and low vision viewers. They have been so great about going back and providing audio description for all of their back catalog of animated features, including many of the shorts, as well as making sure that audio description is accessible for any new content that comes on the platform. So, Alex, as we start off today, I just wanted to ask you, what has your journey been like with Disney animated films and what is the impact of Disney on your life growing up?

Alex Howard
So I used to patch, when I was little. I put a patch over my good eye to strengthen my bad eye, and my mom would turn on a Disney movie, and I would patch while watching Lion King or Cinderella or whatever movie I wanted to. We had most of the book, VHS tapes of the Disney movies. Also, my mom worked for Disney for a bit when I was a kid. She would bring home, they called them demo tapes, where it was like, it was a lot of live action stuff, but there was some animated stuff too, where it would switch from color to black and white so you couldn't pirate the movie. But, yeah, I mean, Disney definitely had a huge impact on me, as a lot of kids growing up.

Lee Pugsley
That's awesome. And I can definitely relate to Disney having an impact. For me, what Disney animated films did was they introduced me to how creative storytelling can be. They also introduced me to the ways that music and songs can be used in a film to tell a story. And it kind of sparked my interest in becoming a Disney animator. Like, when I was younger, that was one of my dreams, was to work for Disney as an animator. And I taught myself how to draw a lot of freehand Disney characters that I can still do some of them right now through muscle memory, even though my vision has got worse. But it's amazing how your mind and your hands, I guess, still remember those pencil strokes to draw those characters.

Alex Howard
Wow, that's amazing. I did not realize you drew at all, but especially Disney characters.

Lee Pugsley
Yeah, like I said, it was one of my dreams to work for Disney. And then when I moved to Los Angeles, it was just cool to know that I was right by the Disney studios in Burbank. And just kind of seeing like Buena Vista Studios and Walt Disney productions and actually being near the action was a really cool kind of like full circle moment for me. And as we celebrate the 100 years of Disney this year, there's a lot of great movies that have been in the Disney canon. And recently, Wish was released into theaters over Thanksgiving weekend. So I'm curious to get your take on Wish to see if you felt like it held up to other Disney animated films, and give a brief review.

Alex Howard
But as far as my enjoyment of Wish goes, I feel like it was a little lackluster compared to other Disney animated movies. I think in terms of Pixar and Disney, people have pretty high expectations when it comes to animated movies, and I was actually really surprised that they went with this movie for their hundredth anniversary. There were a lot of Easter eggs to other movies and things like that, but the story for me was not there. It wasn't nearly as smart as a lot of other Disney movies. And I think I was a little bit more nitpicky than I normally am, because with animation, it does take so much more work. And they write the script, they do the storyboards, they're literally animating every single frame and it takes so much time. And at no point did someone not say, "Hey, we should improve the story a little bit on this movie." There's just a lot of things that didn't make sense, a lot of character motivations that were questionable. But I mean, at the end of the day, it was at least fun. Like, the songs were pretty decent. There was nothing really memorable song wise either, but at least it was a fun movie. And I felt like I had more fun watching this than Strange World, but I do think the story was weaker than the Strange World story was.

Lee Pugsley
Interesting. I can validate a lot of your points. I would say that I probably liked Wish a little bit more than you, but I do agree that some of the character development was lacking. There were plot holes. I thought that the first half of the movie where they introduced the premise was interesting, but then the second half of the film, they never really did a whole lot with it and it became more of a generic, sort of bland story. And I think there was so much more potential for the ways that they could have built the world, that they could have built the characters, and they could have had some more interesting twists and turns than they did. I think that the voice cast, especially Ariana DeBose and Chris Pine, they were great as well as a lot of the supporting characters. And the music was probably what won me over. I do think that the score is pretty solid. And the songs, while not as memorable as other movies, have grown on me, the more that I've listened to the soundtrack. So we'll see in another 100 years if these songs become canon songs. I'm not too sure about that. And then I just wanted to touch really quickly on the whole idea of the Easter eggs. Like you, I appreciated the Easter eggs from other Disney films and them kind of sneaking those things in. It was kind of fun to see which animated films they were going to pay homage to and how they were going to do that. One of the things I do have to say, though, is I didn't feel like the audio description fully captured all of the Easter eggs, and I wish that it would have done a little bit more for viewers like us who don't have the visual acuity to see things on screen. How did you feel about the audio description aspect of Easter eggs?

Alex Howard
I agree with you. You saw it before I did, and you told me about that there were Easter eggs in it, so I was kind of watching for it. There were some things that they would describe and I would be like, especially in the wish bubbles, that I would be like, "Oh, is that a tribute to this? Or is that a tribute to this?" But it was never a clear slap across the face like, "Oh, look, it's Aladdin. You know in Chip 'n Dale: Rescue Rangers and in The Flash, I felt like -- especially The Flash -- they did a really good job of letting the blind audience know, "Hey, we're referencing this thing." But I felt like the audio description was a little bit more vague when it came to the Easter egg side of things for blind audiences.

Lee Pugsley
Totally agreed. And hopefully moving forward, when there's a movie that has a lot of Easter eggs, they can follow the model of The Flash and really verbalize what those things are. I mean, to this day, I think The Flash is still the best example of a movie with audio description that gives the blind viewer the full scope of the cameos and the Easter eggs in a film.

Alex Howard
How did you know about all the Easter eggs that the audio description didn't say? Was it just like you were such a big Disney fan that you picked up on the little hints or did you look it up after?

Lee Pugsley
Surprisingly, I haven't looked anything up on it yet. I've been meaning to do that, but I think it's just because of my love of Disney. And there were some things that were like quotes or just the nature of the characters that they were modeling other characters after. Like, for example you know, they had the seven characters that were kind of supposed to be, I guess, the seven dwarfs. So there were things like that. Some of them were subtle, and I'm sure I missed a fair amount of them, too. Because I do feel like a fair amount of those Easter eggs were visual.

Alex Howard
My main problem with Wish, I think the villain was very one dimensional, which I know a lot of Disney movies that's the case, but I feel like there was a flip. I don't want to give any spoilers, but like -- I'm not saying who the villain was, but there is a flip in his character. And I felt like the flip in this character becoming a villain happened so quick and without much explanation. And I think that was one of my biggest problems with the movie, was like, "Why are we doing this?" Everything they did after that, I was questioning their motivation.

Lee Pugsley
I agree with that. I felt like the flip with the villain definitely left a lot of questions and a lot to be desired, and I think that there would have been a better way to unfold that transformation or change. For example, I think that in Frozen, the character of Hans is a better villain with just the way that he turns. And that kind of is something that comes a little out of left field. But I think it's done in a very effective way. So maybe something more along those lines would have been the way to go.

Alex Howard
Yes, I definitely agree with that. So I think you were talking about playing a game. Since we are celebrating 100 years of Disney, and like Lee said, they've pretty much gone back and described almost their entire back catalog on Disney Plus, even the straight to DVD, straight to VHS sequels of, like, Pocahontas 2, Aladdin 3, that kind of stuff. We each have a top ten, but I know you were saying you wanted to play a game of me guessing your top ten. Is that right?

Lee Pugsley
Exactly. So I am going to start off, when we get to my top ten-- and we can bounce the ball back and forth. You can give one, I can give one. But I'm going to either sing you a song lyric or give you a quote from one of the films on my list. And you'll have to try to guess it.

Alex Howard
Okay, great. And every movie we talk about does have audio description on Disney Plus. And I have not seen most of these movies since I was a kid. So my list is mostly movies that have stood the test of time for me. Not that I've revisited them, but that they still stick out in my mind as like, there was this scene that I really enjoyed or things like that. And so I might also be rusty on your game, but we will see how this goes. It'll be interesting.

Lee Pugsley
Yes, it'll test your Disney knowledge. And for the listeners out there, just remember that our top ten lists are our personal favorites. Objectively, there might be movies that are better and you might think they should be ranked higher, but these are our personal favorites because of possible childhood nostalgia or just because, plain and simply, we like them. So know that they're very subjective rather than fully objective list. So, Alex, why don't you kick it off? Let's begin.

Alex Howard
All right, so I do have a couple honorable mentions. Hercules is one of my honorable mentions because I love the music in Hercules. The only reason it's not in my main list is because I never owned Hercules as a kid. Actually, funny enough, my mom thought it was too violent of a Disney movie, so I never owned that one as a child. But I did see it later and I really do enjoy all the music in that.

Lee Pugsley
Funny enough, Hercules is also one of my honorable mentions, and for the same reason as you. I think it's just a really fun movie. I think it's witty. Especially Hades. He's a great villain. And James Woods does a very good voice performance with him. And then the music, of course, is so catchy. And what's there not to love about it?

Alex Howard
And Danny DeVito.

Lee Pugsley
Oh, yeah, I can't forget about him. He's great, too.

Alex Howard
And then my second of three honorable mentions is the Emperor's New Groove, which I think-- it's a very fun Disney movie. It doesn't have that emotional pull that a lot know ones that really are famous do, but it's just fun, it's funny, it's more silly than a lot of the other ones. But I do think that one has aged very well. It's become almost like a cult classic Disney movie.

Lee Pugsley
Absolutely. And it's so quotable, too. I mean, there's so many good one liners in that movie. And once again, voice performances in that movie are pretty stellar as well.

Alex Howard
Yeah, and my last honorable mention is 101 Dalmatians. Because my grandparents had, we had 101 Dalmatian sheets, we had cups. We had all this stuff. But I also really love dogs. This is one of those classic stories that I couldn't leave off my at least honorable mentions.

Lee Pugsley
A very solid choice for sure. And I mean, yeah, you're right. How can anyone resist a movie with dogs in it?

Lee Pugsley
So what are your honorable mentions?

Lee Pugsley
I have three as well. The first one, like I mentioned before, is Hercules and second one is Tangled. I think that Tangled has a really clever screenplay. I think that every time I watch that movie, the humor lands and it never misses a beat. I think the music is very good in it as well. And it's a very fun and adventurous take on the Rapunzel story that could have easily just been very bland and generic, but it was really elevated by what Disney decided to do with the story.

Alex Howard
Yeah, I agree. That could have gone a very bad way. You know, it's more recent and they're doing Rapunzel. And I feel like Tangled really started the new, second Disney Renaissance.

Lee Pugsley
I hesitate to say that, but I see what you're saying. I think it was trying to bring back that magic of the Disney Renaissance era. And I know that Princess and the Frog was trying to do the same thing because that was a 2D hand drawn film that they were trying to bring back that kind of feel and the nostalgia of that. I think Tangled was the one that really set it off into a new era of quality Disney animated films. And then my third honorable mention is A Goofy Movie. I mean, there's nothing negative that you can say about A Goofy Movie. It's so nostalgic. It's very nineties, and Max is so cool that you just kind of want to be friends with him. And also, Powerline is awesome and I really think there should be a Powerline stadium tour now that we're kind of in the era of nostalgia. I would totally be there for that.

Alex Howard
That's amazing. Yeah, this one is in my top ten, so we'll get to that. But very happy you have it on your at least honorable mentions. I was thinking for some reason you wouldn't have it anywhere. I was thinking maybe Lee was like a Disney purist and A Goofy Movie is not really acknowledged a lot when you bring up classic Disney animated films. So I'm glad that you like it.

Lee Pugsley
It was a contender to be in my top ten. I was debating back and forth between it and another movie that you'll find out about shortly and it almost made the cut. But for all you Disney purists out there, come on you guys, you got to embrace A Goofy Movie.

Alex Howard
So let's jump into our top ten. So if you want, I'll start off and then we can do your game. We can switch back and forth. So my number ten is Peter Pan. I think this is such, like a classic story. I really love it when movies take a classic tale and reimagine them. Not that Peter Pan was a reimagining, but it's one of those ones that have been reimagined so many times. You know, Hook and obviously the failed Pan with Hugh Jackman and things like, so I--. The original animated movie is so good. The ride is great at Disneyland. Obviously, now that I'm an adult, I totally get the wanting to be a kid forever and ever. So I think there's a lot of themes in there that really speak to me.

Lee Pugsley
I love Peter Pan, and I watched that movie a lot as a kid as well. And I always wanted to fly. And I also love the Jolly Roger, the ship, when it's flying at the end. It's just such a magical Disney moment. And even when they're flying over the rooftops of London and they're singing "You can fly, you can fly, you can fly," it's just such a magical Disney moment as well.

Alex Howard
And I will acknowledge it hasn't aged super well with the whole Native American aspect, but I think that's one that people are like, "They just didn't get it then. We don't need to cancel Peter Pan." It's, you know, beyond that, it's a classic with the pirates and everything too, so.

Lee Pugsley
Totally agree. It definitely is a product of its time and the things that we can learn from it, let's learn from it and move on in a way that we don't make those same mistakes or do those things again. But we can still enjoy Peter Pan, I think, for what it is, acknowledging its flaws, too. So my number ten, I'll start off with a quote and we'll see where we go from there. But here's a hint. My quote is "Doomsday and Armageddon just had a baby and it is ugly."

Alex Howard
I want to say Chicken Little, but I don't think it's Chicken Little.

Lee Pugsley
Okay, here's another quote, and this one will probably give it away. "Turns out I don't need a medal to tell me I'm a good guy."

Alex Howard
Oh, my God, that can be so many. I have no idea.

Lee Pugsley
Okay. It's Wreck-It Ralph, one of the newer Disney animated films. I believe it came out in 2012. I think it has a lot of heart, a lot of humor. I really bought into the video game nostalgia and kind of like Wreck-It Ralph being more of like a Donkey Kong type figure and Fix-It Felix being maybe more of like a Mario type figure. I don't know. I just found it really enjoyable and it really resonated with me.

Alex Howard
That's really great. I did not think you would have something like that on your list. So that's a great surprise that-- I love Wreck-It Ralph as well. The second one wasn't as good, but I really love the princess scene in the second one with all of the princesses together.

Lee Pugsley
I agree with that. I will say that the second one was vastly disappointing to me and I really didn't like that movie. There was actually a point that I wanted to walk out of it. But I appreciate the princess scene and I also appreciate the way that they personified the internet. I give, you know, kudos for creativity for those things.

Alex Howard
And I also love Sarah Silverman. So I love that she does like a little girl voice in that movie.

Lee Pugsley
She's so perfect for that role, too. I love it so much.

Alex Howard
Yeah. So my number nine is Lilo and Stitch. While I can acknowledge the overall story isn't one of the great Disney stories, I just love the relationship between Lilo and Stitch. I also really loved the teaser trailers that they used to promote that movie when it was coming out. I had like, on the Disney DVD, he was like crawling on the chandelier in Beauty and the Beast and he was like making cameos in all these classic Disney scenes. I love that kind of stuff. And I think just there are all these memes now of know "Me and my boyfriend" and it's a scene from Lilo and Stitch. I'm actually pretty excited for the live action one next year. I think it's straight to Disney Plus, so hopefully it's good. But I'm very curious to see. I kind of hope they do stitch like Pikachu and Detective Pikachu, that kind of look. But no, I really love the whole. I think it's kind of Sci-Fi I mean, I obviously love E.T. It's kind of that same feel that E.T. Has.

Lee Pugsley
That totally makes sense that Lilo and Stitch would be a movie that would resonate with you because of your love of E.T. And Lilo and Stitch, I think for me is just okay. There wasn't really anything of it that I felt like I strongly connected to. I will say that Stitch is a really fun and lovable character and whenever I see the Stitch plush toys at Disneyland or at any store, the idea of having one is really appealing and he is a very lovable Disney animated character. And I also do appreciate some of the cultural elements that they put into that movie as well. All right, so moving on, my number nine, I will give you a hint. And this is in the form of a song. Here we go. "What I love most about rivers is you can't step in the same river twice. The water is always changing, always flowing."

Alex Howard
Pocahontas.

Lee Pugsley
Bam. Got it. I was trying to pick something, I was trying to find something really obscure, but I'm like, I'll make it not fully recognizable, but recognizable enough that if you know the movie, you would identify it.

Alex Howard
What was your original clue going to be for the hardcore Disney people out there?

Lee Pugsley
I hadn't come up with one yet. I was going to have to wing that. But you got it, fortunately. So I didn't have to rack my brain too hard beyond that. But yeah, Pocahontas is one of those movies that I know it hasn't aged well and I know it would never be made today. I do think that it does have a nice message about tolerance and embracing each other's differences. Once again, I think that there are some problematic things about the way that the Native Americans are portrayed. I do think, though, that there's so much vibrancy to the color palette of that movie. I think that the music is really rich and textured, and I guess I do appreciate the story about people from different backgrounds coming together and overcoming differences, too. So I think that's what really resonated with me, with Pocahontas.

Alex Howard
Yeah. So this is one of the movies that I haven't-- I've maybe seen it once or twice. I had this movie as a kid, but it wasn't one I revisited a lot. But the songs are definitely the highlight for me. And obviously I know them well enough because they stick out in my mind.

Lee Pugsley
So what's your number eight?

Alex Howard
My number eight is A Goofy Movie. Once again, like you said, it's not classic Disney '90s, but it is. I think every kid who grew up in the '90s knows A Goofy Movie. It's a great father son story. It's funny, but also a lot of the emotions are pretty real for what teenagers feel. I mean, Roxanne is the cartoon animated crush. Just, it's all around great. The music, the humor, everything. I love it.

Lee Pugsley
For sure. And another thing I love about A Goofy Movie is they go to this place called Lake Destiny, Idaho. And since I grew up in Idaho, any mention of Idaho in any movie wins major points because most movies don't even mention Idaho at all. So I can always appreciate that. But for those listeners out there who are unaware, Lake Destiny is not a real place in Idaho. It was a fictitious location for A Goofy Movie. Still glad they included it, though.

Alex Howard
And then An Extremely Goofy Movie. It wasn't great, but it was okay. But I always say that they remade An Extremely Goofy Movie into Monsters University.

Lee Pugsley
I can see that. Yeah, I could see that. I do think that An Extremely Goofy Movie wasn't as bad as some of the other Disney animated sequels. But I do agree it fails in comparison to the original Goofy movie.

Alex Howard
Yeah, definitely. So what's your number eight.

Lee Pugsley
See if you can guess it from this clue, which I feel like you will, but here we go anyway. "Ancestors, hear my plea help me not to make a fool of me."

Alex Howard
Mulan.

Lee Pugsley
Yes. Mulan. So Mulan is one of those movies that lands for me every time. I think it's a great story of self discovery. I think it's a really good story about breaking outside of the box that you feel like people are putting you in. But more than that, I just think that the script is so well written, it's so humorous, and there's so many good lines in it. It's a very clever and sharp script. And I think a lot of that is due to Mushu. But regardless, it's just such a joy to watch every time. It never gets old.

Alex Howard
I completely agree. This is up on my list later. But Mushu was one of the main things I was missing from the live action one. I had a little stuffed Mushu that talked. I love Mulan.

Lee Pugsley
And Eddie Murphy's voice performance was perfect for that role.

Alex Howard
Oh, definitely. It was almost like-- that one and Donkey are absolutely perfect.

Lee Pugsley
If you had to choose between Donkey or Mushu, which one would you choose for best Eddie Murphy voice performance?

Alex Howard
I mean, if we're going with who I'd rather hang out with, it'd be Mushu. But he's done Donkey so many times. I guess it's a better performance because you got four movies to go on as opposed to one.

Alex Howard
Yeah, it's a tough call, but I guess I'm more familiar with Donkey and feel like I know Donkey better. So for that reason, I would fully agree with you. So, what's next on your list?

Alex Howard
So, number seven for me is Tarzan. I think this movie is very underrated. I really like how they--. This was really one of the first ones where they went classic 2D animation, but then they had some 3D elements. So I think growing up, that was really cool. I love all the music in this is outstanding by Phil Collins. I think my VHS tape I had, if you watch past the credits, it had like a bonus feature with Phil Collins recording the music. Minnie Driver. Her voice has always kind of been like, "Oh, what?" Because she's Jane. And so I was always kind of like, whenever I hear her in another movie, it would take me back to Tarzan. But no, I really, really love this movie a lot.

Lee Pugsley
Yeah, I'm a big Tarzan fan as well. I think that they did some really nice things with the story. And once again, I think a theme that we see a lot of times in Disney movies is -- and probably in any story -- is just the idea of two people coming from different worlds and finding ways to connect with one another. And I think that's the beauty of, you know, any story. But specifically with Disney animated films, how they're able to still offer a level of human relatability even though we're watching animated characters. I also really love Tarzan kind of you know, like running up and down the trees. And kind of, it almost seems like he's like skateboarding or like skiing or something as he's sliding up and down the tree branches. The visual sequences of him in the trees are spectacular.

Alex Howard
Yeah, I completely agree. And Lee, have you heard-- my friend Tess told me this. You heard the theory that Tarzan's parents is the sisters from Frozen's parents. Is that what the fan theory is?

Lee Pugsley
Oh, I have heard about that. Yeah. I remember hearing about that theory.

Alex Howard
Yeah. And then the ship that Ariel is swimming through is the ship that had-- the shipwreck that killed Tarzan's parents. There's this whole Disney theory that connects all the movies, but I heard that and I thought those were kind of cool.

Lee Pugsley
Also, we have to acknowledge that sometimes Disney can be a little self indulgent by putting, you know, their other characters or locations or set pieces into all of their movies in different ways. I like it when it's more subtle and not pronounced, but we just have to call it out for what it is. My number seven. We'll see if you can get it from this clue. "Wherever I wander, wherever I roam. I couldn't be fonder of my big home? The bees are buzzing in the tree to make some honey just for me."

Alex Howard
It's Winnie the Pooh?

Lee Pugsley
Noooo, it is not Winnie the Pooh.

Alex Howard
I have no idea.

Lee Pugsley
I'll give you another hint, and this will probably get you to get it.

Alex Howard
Oh, is it Jungle Book?

Lee Pugsley
You're right. It is Jungle Book.

Alex Howard
It's another bear movie.

Speaker 1
It's another bear movie. Exactly. I was just going to go to the beginning of The Bare Necessities. So Jungle Book was a movie that I was obsessed with for a while as a kid, I used to watch it every day. And I really wanted to be best friends with Baloo because he's just so, like, happy go lucky and fun and extroverted. So I felt like I connected with him because I felt like me and him were very similar in a lot of different ways. But beyond that, I just really find the music engaging. The animation of the jungle is really scenic and beautiful to look at for it being an animated film. And all the characters are so distinct. You know, you have, like, Baloo and King Louie and Bagheera and Ka the snake and those vultures that are kind of reminiscent of the Beatles. But I think that all of the character personalities are so distinct and they really do a good job of making you have an attachment to them in some way. Whether it's a positive or negative attachment, you still feel some kind of emotion or some kind of feeling about those characters. Also on a note of interest, this was the last movie that Walt Disney actually worked on before he passed away.

Alex Howard
Oh, I did not know that, actually. And yes, I completely agree with everything you just said. I haven't seen this one since I was a kid. But I mean, any-- most of the Disney movies that star animals have a special place in my heart because I'm an animal lover. So, yeah, I love the Jungle Book.

Lee Pugsley
And, yeah, what's next on your list? I think that we're at number six now.

Alex Howard
So my number six is Beauty and the Beast. I think, honestly, the music is just so good, and the music is stuck in my mind all these years. I don't remember how many times I watched it. I must have watched a good amount, though, because I know the music pretty well. And once again, this is one of those classic stories that they've remade in the miniseries and plays and all that stuff. So I really love Beauty and the Beast.

Lee Pugsley
There's a reason that Beauty and the Beast was nominated for Best Picture at the Academy Awards when there were only five movies nominated and there was no best animated film category. And that's because Beauty and the Beast is absolutely spectacular. I mean, visually, it's very stunning. I think especially those classic moments like the ballroom scene and Belle walking down the stairs in that dress and panning up to the chandelier. And then even the beginning when you see the stained glass, at the beginning when the narrator is talking. Jjust so many good visual elements. It was also the first movie to use CGI as well, and that was for the ballroom scene. But, yeah, the music is classic. The story is just so resonant, I think. And I always tell people that Beauty and the Beast has one of the best, like, seven minute opening numbers of any movie ever. Because the way that they're able to establish exposition of letting us know this is who Belle is, this is what people think about her. This is foreshadowing for what's going to happen and where she's going to go. And this is the villain, and this is the storyline of the villain. To set all of that stuff up in, like, 7 minutes and to do it effectively takes a lot of really polished work. And so I think that the script for Beauty and the Beast or the screenplay for Beauty and the Beast is really well written.

Alex Howard
Oh, I completely agree. Yeah. Gaston is not one of those one dimensional Disney villains.

Lee Pugsley
And even the enchanted object, you know, they all have such different personalities. But also, if you think about it, there is something to be said about them losing their humanity and just being resigned to being these objects and still trying to maintain some of their dignity. And I think that there's a lot of deep themes that you can unpack with that, too.

Alex Howard
Yeah. This one has, like, what, three or four classic songs? And the one where the inanimate objects are singing is one of the big famous ones, too.

Lee Pugsley
Yeah. Be Our Guest is once again a very fun, melodic song, but also just a very spectacular visual sequence, too.

Lee Pugsley
So what is your number? Six.

Lee Pugsley
My number six? Let's see if you know this. "The curl of her lip, the ice of her stare. All innocent children, had better beware."

Alex Howard
101 Dalmatians

Lee Pugsley
Bam. 101 Dalmatians once again. This was a very favorite childhood movie for me. I just liked talking dogs. I mean, what can I say? And I like this movie so much that I later convinced my mom to get us a real dalmatian. And we named him Pongo, after Pongo and 101 Dalmatians. But, yeah, I don't know. I just find that this movie has such personality. And the moments that stuck out to me are like when the puppies are rolling in the soot and they're becoming black, or when lucky is in front of the TV and there's that one puppy rolling who's like, "I'm hungry, mother, I'm hungry." And I don't know, just all the personalities of the puppies are so fun. And Cruella de Vil, I think, is one of the best Disney villains ever. She also has a lot of style and pizzazz, but she's also pretty menacing as well.

Alex Howard
I definitely agree with everything you just said. Yeah, I talked about it earlier. But yes, Cruella is one of the classic Disney villains.

Lee Pugsley
And on a note of interest too, for the listeners out there in the Disney animated film, Pongo always has 72 spots, Perdita had 68 spots, and each of the puppies had 32 spots. So there's a little bit of Disney trivia for you all.

Alex Howard
That's amazing that you can remember those numbers.

Lee Pugsley
I used to know, and I don't remember all these things now. I'd have to go back and refresh my memory, but I used to know, for all of the earlier Disney movies, from Snow White to the Jungle Book, how many drawings per film were included in each one of those. Because I studied Disney animation so hardcore when I was a kid that I knew random facts like that, that aren't necessarily going to advance my life in any way. But they're still fun to know. Now we're into the top half of our list. So number five for you.

Alex Howard
So number five for me is Zootopia. I saw this in the theater. I don't think I had very high expectations because I think when this came out, there hadn't been a lot that had come out from Disney animation that had super impressed me lately. But I loved Zootopia. I love the message it has. I know it wasn't on purpose, but I felt like there's a little Breaking Bad reference in there, too. I really love the whole world they created. All the different animals had obviously different traits like the sloths and everything, but I thought it was great. I really hope they do a second one because I would love to return to that world.

Lee Pugsley
Yeah, I had heard they were going to do a second Zootopia movie. I know that there was a TV show, right? That they did?

Alex Howard
Oh, I actually don't know. There probably is. They've done a TV show on everything on Disney Plus.

Lee Pugsley
Yeah. Check into that. Because I want to say there was either a TV show that they had completed or one that they were talking about doing. So one of the two could be true. But yeah, for Zootopia, I got to be honest, that movie wasn't really... It just didn't strongly connect with me. I think that there's a lot of things to appreciate about it. And I think that it has a good message. And I think that the visual elements of it that I could make out, like the backgrounds and just-- A lot of visual activity is going on in that movie that I think was very well done. But I don't know. I wanted to like it more than I did.

Alex Howard
That's fair, that's fair. I know the musicals speak more to you, right?

Lee Pugsley
They do. Although Wreck-It Ralph wasn't a musical. What was it about Zootopia that you think resonated strongly with you?

Alex Howard
I think there was a tone of inclusivity. I mean, it was a lot about how... I've only seen it once in theater. How many years ago did it come out? Like seven years ago. From what I remember, there was a big message about equality. And I think there was almost like a BLM kind of message. But obviously the different races are the different animal species. So I really, really love that whole thing, the metaphor. So what is your number five?

Lee Pugsley
Here's a clue. "I ask for nothing. I can get by. But I know so many less lucky than I."

Alex Howard
I don't know.

Lee Pugsley
Another clue. "Out there living in the sun. Give me one day out there, all I ask is one."

Alex Howard
I should know this. Is it Sleeping Beauty?

Lee Pugsley
It is not. It is The Hunchback of Notre Dame.

Alex Howard
Nice. See, that's another one that's really underrated.

Lee Pugsley
Highly underrated. I think that The Hunchback of Notre Dame is sensational. I think that it has one of the best scores of any Disney film ever. I think that the animation of Paris and some of the sequences of the bell tower and Esmeralda dancing are exquisite. And it has such rich and deep themes of acceptance. And there's some political themes going on there. I will say it's definitely not a movie for kids, but... Interesting how it came out. And I watched it as a kid, and I watched it later and realized how many things went way over my head about it. But I think I appreciate the maturity that that movie provides.

Alex Howard
Yeah, definitely one of the darker Disney movies. I watched that one as a kid. It is a really great movie. I had a little Quasimodo stuffed animal, too.

Lee Pugsley
Oh, very cool. Yeah, I had a Quasimodo plush as well. And while it's darker than most other Disney movies, at least it's not as dark as the book. A ton of people die at the end of the book. So at least they did decide to put a little Disney bow on it, which is nice. So what's your number four?

Alex Howard
My number four is The Little Mermaid, which I assume is much higher on your list. But, yeah, I mean, once again, the songs are classic, the story is classic. We're getting into the Disney Renaissance stuff where it's like you could just write a book about how great these movies are. Yeah, I mean, obviously the animation is a feat in itself with all the hand drawn bubbles and everything. I mean, it's kind of self explanatory why The Little Mermaid is so great.

Lee Pugsley
Yeah, I mean, I talk about this movie all the time on this podcast, so I don't really need to dive into it deeper. It's one of my favorite movies of all time, animated or not. Had a huge impact on my childhood, both in making me want to be an animator, getting me into musical theater. But it's such a colorful movie as well, and it set off the Disney Renaissance in such a strong way. So for all those reasons, I am glad to see this movie on your list in your top five.

Alex Howard
So what's your number four?

Lee Pugsley
You'll get this right away, but the songs are too obvious. And the quotes are probably obvious too, but here we go. "Gee, he looks blue. I'd say brownish gold."

Alex Howard
Is it Aladdin?

Lee Pugsley
No, it is not Aladdin. But you're in the right era, though. I'll give you another hint. "And what does that make you? A monkey's uncle."

Alex Howard
Wait, is this one Tarzan?

Lee Pugsley
No, no, no.

Alex Howard
Oh, my God.

Lee Pugsley
It's not Tarzan. It's nothing that's been on your list as of now.

Alex Howard
I'm blanking on this. What is it?

Lee Pugsley
It is The Lion King.

Alex Howard
Oh, wow. Okay. Whew. Yeah, this is very high on my list. So yeah.

Lee Pugsley
So that's why I had to do quotes instead of songs, and tried to pick not the obvious quotes because I knew that you are a big fan of this movie and I had to try to stump you in some way. But, yeah, The Lion King. I think that the visuals are breathtaking. The opening sequence with The Circle of Life is absolutely stunning and probably one of the best sequences in any Disney animated film. I think that the emotions of this movie are very strong and really, it's very moving, honestly. And beyond that, the music is fun, but just the whole setting of the African backdrop is a really fun exploration, too.

Alex Howard
Very cool. I will save my things for when I get to that down the list.

Lee Pugsley
All right, well, we're at number three now. So the question is, is The Lion King number three for you?

Alex Howard
So my number three is Aladdin. Once again, this is one of the earlier ones to do computer animation. A little bit mixed with the 2D. But oh, my God, once again, there's, like, so much to say. It's great. Robin Williams does a great performance. All the songs are awesome. It has kind of an adventure feel, too, along with, like, yes, there's the matched carpet ride and the romance. But as a four year old boy, I think the adventure part of it speaks more than the romance part of it. So I really love this movie a lot.

Lee Pugsley
So this is where our lists line up because Aladdin is also my number three. And to touch on some of the points that you mentioned, I think that Robin Williams' voice performance as the genie is arguably the best voice performance for any character ever. I mean, it's just so masterful with all the different impressions and just the different expressions that he has in his voice to convey the character of the genie. I can't think of anything else that tops it, really. And the other thing I appreciate about Aladdin -- which I suppose The Little Mermaid and Beauty and the Beast started down this path -- but we have Princess Jasmine, who's a very strong willed and independent princess. And I think that she's probably one of the strongest Disney princesses in terms of her personality and just the strength that she has and the way that she carries herself, too.

Alex Howard
Yeah. And her presence is definitely in Disneyland, I think, you know, she's one of the more popular Disney princesses. But even, there are parts of this movie where I can remember the frame of what it looks like, like the sand mountain when the monkey sees the jewels and it's reflected in his eyes. Even though I can't see as well as I used to, there are certain moments in this movie that are burned into my mind.

Lee Pugsley
Oh, absolutely. And the one I think of is when Aladdin's on the balcony and then the Genie is the bee and he's like, "Beeee yourself." I can totally visualize that right now. As we're talking about it.

Alex Howard
Yep. With a big flashing sign, right?

Lee Pugsley
Exactly. Yeah. I love that. I love the fact that we did line up somewhere in our Disney top ten list.

Alex Howard
Yeah.

Lee Pugsley
So, yeah. What's number two?

Alex Howard
So my number two is Mulan, for all the reasons we said earlier. Once again, the ones that weren't as romantic, I think stood out to me more as a child, at least. I mean, I don't mind romantic movies now. But you know, as a kid, I think Mulan was one of the ones that really impacted me. And there's, you know, a lot of battle scenes that were amazing. The animation's great. Obviously, we were talking about Eddie Murphy. I would say Robin Williams, I would agree, is one of the greatest ever. Eddie Murphy's pretty far up there as well with Mushu. But yeah, it's just, it's a great, great movie. And this is one that I would love to see you know, a play, or more stuff with this storyline remade in different ways. I mean, obviously they did it with live action, we talked about in the last episode. Pretty disappointing. But if they were to do a different imagining of it like they've done with other Disney movies, I think it'd be really interesting.

Lee Pugsley
I agree with that. I would love to see a stage version of that. And I think there's a lot of really cool design elements that could be had with that.

Alex Howard
And obviously, the songs are out of this world.

Lee Pugsley
Oh, yeah. The songs are wonderful. Also, a moment that really sticks out to me in Mulan is when she's cutting her hair. Just that sequence when she's getting ready to go to war. And the music, the score behind it is just so riveting and thrilling.

Alex Howard
Yes. And I also love when Mushu sees the strand of hair in the snow and he pulls it and it's the villain, and he pushes it back. Know, that's another one of those where I can picture it super well in my mind.

Lee Pugsley
Absolutely.

Alex Howard
So what's your number two?

Lee Pugsley
You'll probably get this, but here we go. "Through the mist, through the woods, through the darkness and the shadows. It's a nightmare, but it's one exciting ride."

Alex Howard
Nightmare Before Christmas?

Lee Pugsley
No.

Alex Howard
I was like, does that count?

Lee Pugsley
It could count, arguably, but no, it's not.

Alex Howard
I know the song. I just can't think of the m--. Like, once you say the movie, I'm going to be like, "Oh."

Lee Pugsley
One more hint. "New and a bit alarming. Who'd had ever thought that this could be?"

Alex Howard
It's Beauty and the Beast, right?

Lee Pugsley
It is Beauty and the Beast, and I already hailed its praises, so I don't really have anything more to add to it. But, yes, Beauty and the Beast is number two on my list.

Alex Howard
So, as you may have guessed, Lion King is my number one. [Laughs] It's just... Oh, my God, this movie had so much impact. I had so many cups and bowls and a stuffed Simba. And this was the first Broadway play I saw, was The Lion-- not Broadway. We saw it at The Pantages. But my first live theater experience was The Lion King. And plus, it also tops it all off with a modernized Shakespeare retelling of Macbeth. It's just so good. And I love how they made that for kids, too. And once again, all those classic animated moments that you can think of. Them walking on the log in front of the waterfall, and it's just all around, it's amazing.

Lee Pugsley
Yeah. I know that I already hailed my praises of the Lion King as well, but I fully agree with you. And a slight correction that it was actually a modern retelling of Hamlet.

Alex Howard
You're right, you're right. I'm over here talking about how I know Shakespeare. You're right. It's Hamlet. Hahaha!

Lee Pugsley
But a comment I do have about that, about-- one other comment that I have that I didn't mention before is, I think Scar is a really interesting villain. And I love the voice performance by Jeremy Irons. There's so much smooth yet menacing character in that performance.

Alex Howard
Oh, definitely. And I totally, whenever you say Scar, like I picture, how they retract their claws in and out? I love how they animated that in the movie.

Lee Pugsley
Yeah. One of the things that's really interesting about that movie is, now that we're talking about it, are just how the lions have different movements. How Scar moves in a different way, at a different speed than Simba or Mufasa. That all of them don't move in the same ways. And I'm sure that was very intentional by the animators, but I really appreciate that.

Alex Howard
I also. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think this is one of the only Disney movies where you see one of the parents die on screen. I think there are a lot of Disney movies where the parents are dead, but it's always off screen.

Lee Pugsley
I think you are correct about that.

Alex Howard
So I think that's why it's so emotionally impactful, and I-- See, I don't know why, I love to torture myself emotionally in movies. The ones that pack a big emotional punch are usually my favorite.

Lee Pugsley
Yeah, no, that totally makes sense based on your list of movies so far.

Alex Howard
So what is your number one, though? Oh, you know what? I know what your number one is. You don't even have to give me a clue. Is it The Little Mermaid?

Lee Pugsley
It is The Little Mermaid. Once again, I already talked a lot about this one. Nothing really new to add, but, yeah, it's up there. It's my number one. Objectively, I will say that Beauty and the Beast arguably might be a better movie. But because of the nostalgic value that the Little Mermaid has and the way that it impacted me when I was younger, it will always hold that place in my heart. And I don't think that any other Disney movie will be able to take its spot.

Alex Howard
I think, objectively, most movies on my list, too, like Lilo and Stitch, A Goofy Movie, there are better Disney animated movies. But like we said, these are the ones that really hit us growing up as a kid. I think you could probably look at my list, and not know my birthday, and be like, this is a '90s kid. I think most of my movies were from the '90s or early 2000's.

Lee Pugsley
Yeah. I would say that you could look at my list and very much figure that out as well. But this has been really fun because I think it really speaks to the legacy of Disney as we're going through these movies and as we can both recount so many specific moments, even though we're not able to see them anymore. They're forever embedded in our minds visually. And even if I were to lose complete sight, I could take probably any of these movies that I've discussed today and go through it frame by frame and be like, "Okay, now this is what's happening. These are the colors. This is what it looks like." And describe it in very vivid detail for anyone. And once again, I think that's just the power of Disney animation and how it really has such a profound impact in shaping so many of our childhoods.

Alex Howard
And now you can, even if you aren't completely blind, go on Disney Plus and watch any of these movies with description, and hopefully it will get a very similar feel that you remember.

Lee Pugsley
Exactly. I actually do want to go back and watch these movies with audio description because I'll be honest, I've never watched any of these movies with audio description.

Alex Howard
I watched the first half of Little Mermaid before the live action one came out, and there were parts of it I was like, "Oh, I don't remember this. I kind of don't want to spoil the live action one." So I stopped. But it was interesting because I was getting ready for bed. I wasn't really watching. I was just listening, and I was able to do that with just the audio description.

Lee Pugsley
That's awesome. Well, thank you guys so much for tuning in and celebrating 100 years of Disney with us. If you want to reach out to us, we would love to know what your favorite Disney animated films are, and you can email us at DarkRoomFilmCast@gmail.com. Once again, that's DarkRoomFilmCast@gmail.com. And we are going to be doing three other parts to the celebration of Disney, or as we call it, The Accessible World of Disney. We'll have a Marvel episode, a Star wars episode, and a Pixar episode coming up at some point, so stay tuned for that.

Alex Howard
Yeah, probably-- tentatively Pixar around Inside Out 2, maybe Marvel around Deadpool 3, and then probably Star Wars whenever it's relevant. I don't think they have a movie on the schedule right now, but we'll figure out a time to do that because that'll be a great one.

Lee Pugsley
And a special thanks to Matt Lauterbach for making transcripts of this episode and all previous episodes possible, too. So thanks, Matt.

Alex Howard
And you can us on Instagram as well. You can message us there if you'd rather do that than email, @DarkRoomFilmCast.

Lee Pugsley
Exactly. Well, once again, thank you guys so much. And remember that when you wish upon a star, your dreams do come true.