Ep. 31: Spider-Man Movie Rankings

In honor of Venom: The Last Dance's release, Alex and Lee debate the best and worst of the 9 Spider-Man Films!
Email us and let us know what you think of the Spider-Man films!
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Search for Audio Description availability for any title on the American Council for the Blind's Website!
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Transcript

Lee Pugsley
Welcome back, everyone, to The Dark Room, where two blind cinephiles illuminate the sighted. I'm Lee Pugsley.

Alex Howard
I'm Alex Howard.

Lee Pugsley
And this is a podcast hosted by two legally blind guys for film lovers of all abilities. Today's episode is going to be a really fun one, and I've really been looking forward to it. In light of the recent rereleases of all eight live-action Spider-Man movies, we thought it would be fun to go ahead and give you our rankings of what we think are the best Spider-Man movies and in what order we see them ranked. And I do have to say that when I was thinking about my rankings of these Spider-Man movies, I don't think there's a movie that I don't enjoy watching. Obviously, there are some Spider-Man movies that definitely stand out amongst the crowd, but even the ones that are lower on my list, I still actually enjoy them a fair amount.

Alex Howard
I would agree. I think there's only one that I remember not liking. By the way, we are only doing the live-action Spider-Man movies, and we're not doing... I mean, I'll talk briefly about Venom and Madame Webb at the end, but it's only the movies with Spider-Man in the title that we're doing right now. Based on those that are live-action, there's only one that I remember not liking, but I am thinking about revisiting that one. None of these, except for one in my mind, are awful.

Lee Pugsley
If it's the movie that I'm guessing you're referring to, you definitely need to revisit it. Now, before we begin with our rankings, I'm curious to know, Alex, how many movies do you think will have lined up on our list in the same position?

Alex Howard
I think we'll only have one, and I think it's the top one.

Lee Pugsley
Okay. I think that we will have three, but I've been wrong before, so I could be wrong about this one. Why don't you go ahead and get us kicked off? We have, once again, eight Spider-Man movies that we're ranking.

Alex Howard
So my number eight is The Amazing Spider-Man 2. This is one that I did not see in theaters for some reason. I think I was working at the theater at the time when it came out, but I think there's just so many other things that I didn't go. I had heard bad word of mouth. From what I remember, this is a very slow, boring Spider-Man movie. I haven't seen this since, I think, the year after it came out. But just for having so many villains in it, I didn't think there was that much action. I thought Paul Giamatti as the Rhino was super under utilized. I think he only has one scene. Then I think the only redeeming thing I remember is the Gwen Stacy scene. For anyone, okay, we're going to be spoiling these movies. I think the newest one came out four years ago, so we're just going right into it. But the Gwen Stacy death scene, it's iconic from the comics. It's one of those things that if you know Spider-Man at all, you know that that happens. And so the way that they portrayed that was very well done. But beyond that, I don't remember The Amazing Spider-Man 2 having very many redeeming qualities.

Lee Pugsley
All of those points you make are fair. But since we're talking about it now, I will comment on it briefly. The movie, objectively, is a mess, and it's so convoluted because I know that Mark Webb wanted to tell one story. Sony wanted to tell another story to set up for sequels and a bigger franchise with the Andrew Garfield version of Spider-Man.

Alex Howard
They were trying to set up a Sinister Six, I think, right?

Lee Pugsley
That is correct. And so what we got with that is, we just got way too many villains. There's Electro, the Green Goblin, and one more villain that I'm not thinking of.

Alex Howard
Rhino.

Lee Pugsley
Rhino, yeah. And with Rhino, Paul Giamatti is kind of ridiculous, too, in the scenes or scene that he does have. I mean, Paul Giamatti is a great actor, but he was underutilized, and they really didn't do much to develop his character. So what the Amazing Spider-Man 2 is, is a very convoluted mess of so many different subplots, so many different villains that it really doesn't focus in on much of anything. I do think that the final scene with Gwen and her death is arguably one of, if not the most emotional moment, of any of these eight Spider-Man movies. It's just so well done. That being said, does that make up for all the other mess of the rest of the movie? No. But to be fair, I don't hate this movie. I think that it's enjoyable. I think that visually, from what I remember, I haven't seen it in a while -- there are some really good visuals in this movie, and I really like the color palette. It's brighter. The first Amazing Spider-Man movie is pretty dark in terms of the colors, but the second one definitely lifts a little bit more in terms of the visual aesthetic. So, yeah, I guess those are my thoughts on the Amazing Spider-Man 2. But anyone that would put this movie at the bottom of their list, including you, I totally get that.

Alex Howard
Yeah and I think it's funny because there are a few movies I watched not in theaters, that I'm like, "Wow, that was a waste of time." One of them is X-Men Origins: Wolverine. One of them is Amazing Spider-Man 2. But yeah, considering we'll get to the first Amazing Spider-Man, but I did rewatch that last night, or most of it. And I did like it better than I remember. So I am thinking of revisiting the second one just to see if I have a different frame of mind, especially after No Way Home.

Lee Pugsley
Yes, you definitely should revisit the second Amazing Spider-Man movie. In fact, I'm going to revisit it as well, fairly soon.

Alex Howard
So that was my number eight. What is your number eight, Lee?

Lee Pugsley
My number eight is Spider-Man 3 from Sam Raimi. And once again, I don't dislike this movie. I do think that it is objectively a pretty weak movie, but it just came across as a more manufactured product, I would say. I think that, once again, similar to the Amazing Spider-Man 2, there are too many villains. You have the Sandman and you have Venom, and I don't honestly even know why they put Venom in there because they really did nothing with that villain. So from a personal place of enjoyment, even though there are things that are ridiculously cheesy, like the dancing scene and a few other things like when they're in the kitchen and everything, it's super campy. But I can do campy every so often, and it works for me. I think the most annoying thing about Spider-Man 3 was the Sandman. I just found his character so annoying, and he was like that fly on the wall that just wouldn't go away. What I can appreciate about Spider-Man 3 is the friendship arc between Harry and Peter. I think that that's really a great storyline throughout all three of those films. And just the theme of forgiveness. I think that those are the redeeming qualities of that movie. But in my opinion, Spider-Man 3 is the weakest of all eight live-action movies.

Alex Howard
That is very fair. I have Spider-Man 3 at my number seven, so we can do that right now. This was the first movie I remember being beside myself excited for. I think I was in seventh or eighth grade when this came out. I was so, so excited because I had just discovered Spider-Man 1, Spider-Man 2. Spider-Man 3 was my first Spider-Man movie in theaters that I went to see. It was a bit of a let down. I was in a little bit of denial when I first saw it. I felt like, "Oh, no, it was good." But it was like, I had that feeling in the back of my mind like, "Oh, it wasn't that great." But no, I think there are things, I do like this movie more than most people. The dancing scene is ridiculous for sure. The weakest villain, in my opinion, is Venom. I don't think they cast that right with Topher Grace. I think Topher Grace is a little too goofy and not menacing enough for Venom. I mean, overall, it's sad because I think there was a lot of studio interference with this movie. I heard that the dream that Sam Raimi had for this movie was not what we saw. So it is sad that they went the same route, almost like they did with Amazing Spider-Man 2, where there was a little bit too much studio interference for its own good.

Lee Pugsley
I agree with that. And it's interesting because Spider-Man 3 and The Amazing Spider-Man 2 are almost interchangeable. The issues that we can identify in both of those movies are very similar, just being pulled in so many different directions, not being focused in, and too many villains. And that is true of... Yeah, that's true of both of those movies.

Alex Howard
But I do agree with what you said. I think the arc of Harry, James Franco's character, through all three movies, is a very strong and compelling arc from, "Oh, you killed my dad," and the whole MJ thing. I think it's a very good relationship for Spider-Man.

Lee Pugsley
Absolutely. I'll just jump over to my number seven now. We don't need to touch on this anymore, but my number seven is The Amazing Spider-Man 2. And once again, for all the reasons that we've talked about, I still enjoy this movie, but it is lower on my list. I'll just throw it back over to you. What's your number six?

Alex Howard
It was really hard. My six and five are pretty close. My number six is The Amazing Spider-Man. I think it's really hard for me to watch The Amazing Spider-Man, which, like I said, I did try and rewatch it last night. I didn't get to finish it because of time purposes. But I did like it a lot more upon this watch. But the first time I saw it, it was very, very hard to get the Tobey Maguire movies out of my head. I think even this time watching it, there are certain lines like when the guy robs the liquor store and he's like, "Stop that guy." And he's like, "That's not my policy." It's very close to Tobey Maguire saying, "That's not my problem." And then same with the Uncle Ben thing. They're trying so hard to not say, "With great power comes great responsibility." So it's very hard to not think of the original movie when you watch this movie. I think they tried to do a good job of differentiating it with the whole mystery of his parents' storyline, which that's a bummer that that didn't go anywhere. I know they were planning on a third movie to tie all that up, but that's another thing watching this movie, you're like, "Oh, it doesn't go anywhere, and that kinda sucks." But then I do think there are a lot more redeeming qualities in it than I found the first time I watched it. With the balcony scene with Gwen Stacy, I really dig the relationship with Spider-Man and Gwen Stacy in this movie. Their chemistry is really good, but I also appreciate that they don't do the whole, "Oh, I can't tell her I'm a Spider-Man" thing for too long. There's a beat where he's debating it, and then he just shoots his web and reels her back into him. I was like, "That's super cute." I liked that. We've already seen that whole identity crisis thing. We don't need that again. So I do appreciate that part of it. And I do think he's a funnier Spider-Man than Tobey Maguire, so that's always fun. I think it's really hard to watch this movie and not compare it to Tobey Maguire because they did come out so close to each other. And the whole Uncle Ben dying thing. I know that that's the origin of Spider-Man, but there's a reason they didn't do it in Homecoming because we've seen it so many times. And same with the new Batman movie with Robert Pattinson. They didn't show the parents dying because we've seen it so many times. I think if they had skipped that part of the origin story in Amazing Spider-Man, I think it would have been a little bit of a better movie.

Lee Pugsley
It's very similar to the Sam Raimi Spider-Man, the first Spider-Man movie in a lot of ways. It tries to bring something fresh, and in some ways it succeeds in that. But there's still enough of the origin story beats that are similar that you just can't help but thinking about the 2002 Spider-Man movie and how it compares or how it falls short. It just doesn't seem as fresh as it could be. It's not a movie that I think ultimately justifies its existence in a big way. Now, that being said, I'm really grateful this movie exists. I think the strength of the movie is the relationship between Peter and Gwen in both movies, both in Amazing Spider-Man 1 and 2. That relationship is very strong. Andrew Garfield and Emma Stone have the best chemistry out of any of the Spider-Man couples in the other movies. Maybe a bold statement to say there. I think that all of the actors in the Amazing Spider-Man movies do a fantastic job of taking a script that is arguably lackluster and doesn't give you a whole lot on the page. They really do something with it and create as much dimension and as much emotion and layered character development as they can. I mean, they're their hearts and souls into these characters, and it really shows. I also appreciate the grounded approach to the Spider-Man world in these movies. And I think that Sally Field is probably my favorite Aunt May just because of how strong her acting is. And personally, Andrew Garfield is my favorite Peter Parker. And I also think that he acts the role the best out of any of the Peter Parker that we've seen so far. I mean, he's just so charismatic. He knows how to do humor. He knows how to do emotional moments. That, to me, is the strength of the amazing Spider-Man.

Alex Howard
I do have two other quick thoughts before we move on to your number six. I really like that Gwen Stacy, it wasn't like she was dating someone else, and there's a love triangle like in Spider-Man. They really tried to keep that, "Okay, she knows he's Spider-Man. She likes him. That's just it." I love the line where he says, "I was bitten," and she thinks he's talking about by a love bug or something, and he's like, "I'm Spider-Man." That's what it is. I thought that was really cute. The thing I think that's really missing from this movie when I first saw it in theaters is the music. The music from Danny Elfman of the Tobey Maguire Spider-Man movies is so iconic to me. And just hearing it gives me chills. And I don't think I can't even tell you what the score is from Amazing Spider-Man. There's no iconic theme song for Amazing Spider-Man.

Lee Pugsley
I can agree with that in the sense of the Danny Elfman score definitely has more iconic themes to it. In defense of the score for the Amazing Spider-Man, the first score was written by James Horner, and then the second score was written by Hans Zimmer. I've actually listened to those scores several times, and I've really grown to appreciate them. I would still say that the Danny Elfman score is elevated above those scores. But for the tone that is trying to be created within this world in this version of Spider-Man, I actually do find it very effective. That could just be because I've had more familiarity with these scores throughout the years.

Alex Howard
Since I grew up with the Tom Maguire ones, and I didn't really read the comics very much, I thought the organic spider web from his wrist, to me, that was what Spider-Man was. So it was weird for me to see the wrist launchers. The web in the Amazing Spider-Man is artificial. And so that took me a while to get used to. I know that's how it was in the comics, and that's what people wanted. But when I first saw that, I was like, "Wait, what? It doesn't come from him? That's weird."

Lee Pugsley
I could see how that could be a little off-putting at first until you adjust into it. I don't think I really thought much of it when I first saw the Amazing Spider-Man and that shift, but you do bring up a valid point that it is something that you have to wrap your mind around in order to fully accept it.

Alex Howard
And then for you, I watched it with AD for the first time last night, so that was cool. There were some things I didn't notice before, like when Dr. Connor gets his arm, and I didn't realize it was a lizard arm first, and he had to cut into it to get his human hand out. That was cool. But were there things that you didn't notice before when watching it with AD?

Lee Pugsley
There were quite a few things I didn't notice before because I have not seen this movie with audio description either until I watched it in the theater. Last night, actually. I picked up on a lot more that was happening within some of the action sequences that I wasn't able to fully grasp before. Like you said, with the hand, I picked up on that. It was just a very fresh experience, I think, for me, in terms of having audio description because it was re-experiencing the movie movie with a whole new set of eyes. And then the other thing I will say about the audio description itself is that I found the narrator for this film very expressive. Did you notice that, too?

Alex Howard
Okay. So, yeah, let's get into this for a second. His movies, he has a lot on Disney Plus. I think it's a lot of the older stuff. And by older, I don't mean that much older. He does the Pirates movies. He does The Amazing Spider-Man. He does a lot of catalog titles. I am not a fan. I think he's too expressive. The example I always use is from Pirates, and I think it was Pirates 2 when he's narrating. And there's this whole reveal of Captain Jack Sparrow on the island. And he's like, "It's Captain Jack Sparrow!" And he's all excited. I'm like, "No, this isn't your job to be excited. Your job is to tell me what's happening, and I (emphasized) get excited." But yeah, I do think the narrator is way too expressive, and I think they've realized that in recent years and cut back on the expression of emotion from narrators. But yeah, all of his movies that he has, which are all on Disney+, are a little bit too expressive for me.

Lee Pugsley
Yeah, I guess I haven't heard his voice in quite a while, and I forgot how expressive he is. Because even when they're describing a fight sequence, he's like, "Spider-Man punches the guy. He goes flying!" There's so much expression. I was amused by it, don't get me wrong, but I think that there's way too much commentary on how we should feel as a viewer when an audio description narrator is that expressive. As we've talked about before on our podcast, it's a tricky balance because as an audio description narrator, you want to make sure that you are adding something to what's going on, but without being distracting or over-emoting about it. So it's that fine line. And I think over the years, they have done a good job of striking the right balance.

Alex Howard
Yes, I definitely agree. What is your number six?

Lee Pugsley
So my number six is Spider-Man: Homecoming. And what I really appreciate about this movie is the humor. I think that the script is very well written. I think that the humor lands, and I think it's really fun. Also, I'm a big sucker for high school drama in any form. The fact that Peter Parker actually feels like a high school student, I really like that aspect of it. I like the banter back and forth between him and the rest of the students and everything. It feels very John Hughes in terms of giving nods to the humor of The Breakfast Club or Ferris Bueller's Day Off or Sixteen Candles, movies in that era. I know that other people have also made that comparison as well. I enjoyed Spider-Man Homecoming. However, it didn't really feel like a Spider-Man movie as much as it just felt like an Avengers or just an expanded MCU universe movie. I think I prefer the movies where Spider-Man or any character really is isolated a little bit more in their own world, and you really feel like it's their movie. From Spider-Man Homecoming, I didn't really feel like that. And then even with the spider suit, it was definitely different than what we were used to. In some ways, I find that refreshing. In other ways, I wanted more of a traditional Spider-Man suit. I think that Tom Holland captures the immaturity of a high school student really well, and we definitely get a very different take on Peter Parker in his franchise. And I can appreciate that. I don't know if I would say that it's my preference as a whole, but I do enjoy it nonetheless.

Alex Howard
So I thoroughly enjoy Spider-Man Homecoming. I think the first time I saw it, it was so much different, which I think-- it was a lot different than the other Spider-Man movies, which I think is what they needed. They needed to set it apart. And I think having it in the MCU really set it apart from everything else. They fixed the music problem with this movie. I love the music in the new Spider-Man movies. I think they had a nice little Easter egg on the MJ kiss in the original Spider-Man. He was in the Washington Monument, and he goes down, and you think he's going to kiss Zendaya, but he doesn't. I thought that was really cute. But I don't know. This movie really did it for me. I loved this movie when it came out. I still love it. I think there are better ones now, but I thought they did a really good job of bringing Spider-Man into the MCU, making it its own thing. But I know people have a little bit of a problem with the Iron Spider suit. It's like Iron Man Jr. But I don't know. I thought they needed something different because we've seen... You know, this is the third iteration of Spider-Man in 20 years, in 15 years more like, I think. But I think they accomplished in doing something different, and it's a little bit higher on my list than I think you have it.

Lee Pugsley
Yeah, that's totally fair. And I do appreciate the fact that they didn't do just another origin story because that was my biggest fear when I first heard they were making this was, "Ugh, we really have to do a third origin story now?" So it was refreshing what they brought to the table. And on a side note, I do think that Michael Keaton as Vulture was a great villain. I think it's a great twist, the reveal of how that comes about. And I really liked that aspect of the film as well.

Alex Howard
Yeah.

Lee Pugsley
So what's your number five?

Alex Howard
My number five is actually Spider-Man: Far From Home, which is funny because I think I liked it a lot more when I first saw it. I do still really like it. But I think Spider-Man: Far From Home, the last half of the movie is much better than the first half because for the first half, you don't really know... Like going in, I knew Mysterio was the villain. I knew Jake Gyllenhaal was Mysterio. I had this Spider-Man book when I was a kid of all the characters. I just thought Mysterio was a really intriguing character, so I was really excited to see him in the movie. But for the first half, you're like, "Where is he?" He's not a villain yet. Then when the twist happens, you're like, "Okay." I think that's when the movie really picks up. I think that's why it's my lowest ranked of the Tom Holland ones because the first half is a little lackluster. But once it picks up, I think this is what you picture when you want Mysterio. It's throwing Spider-Man off-kilter. He's confused most of the time, the reality changing. I thought they did a really good job with the Mysterio villain, and I really like that they brought it all the way back to pretty much Iron Man as an origin story for the villain. I think it was a really good tie-in. Bringing back JK Simmons was mind-blowing in the theater. I think it was in the post-credit scene that he came in, and everyone was freaking out. So I really like that they brought him back, too.

Lee Pugsley
Yeah. I have very similar thoughts to you in some ways in terms of bringing Jack K. Simmons back, Jake Gyllenhaal as Mysterio, great villain, and just what they did with the plot points, especially within the second half of the movie. And this is where our lists do line up because Spider-Man: Far From Home is also my number five. And what I liked about this movie, I understand what you're saying about the first half and it being maybe a little slower or uneven. I actually appreciated the fact that they were in a different location than New York, and it really felt like Spider-Man was in his own world. And I think I liked the isolation of him not being connected so much to all the other MCU characters. And it really felt like it was his own story. He was the main character in his story. Whenever there's teen drama, I can always be down for that. Just the little love triangles that were going on and all the high school antics as they were exploring Europe as well. I don't know. I just found it a really fun movie. The first half of the movie, while validating your points, didn't bother me. I was on board from the very beginning. I did wonder, though, where was Jake Gyllenhaal as well at some point, and then he showed up, and that was great. And that really elevated the material as well. But yeah, I just really appreciated the exploration of a different location in an isolated world. And I thought that they did some really cool things with the plot, and I think that some of the action sequences are really solid as well.

Alex Howard
Yeah, none of these movies are bad. I mean, my number 8 pick is a bad movie, but beyond that, all of these movies are really solid. So even though it is at number 5, I really do enjoy Spider-Man: Far From Home.

Lee Pugsley
And what's your number 4?

Alex Howard
My number 4 and 3 are very interchangeable. It depends on the day. I think today my number 4, Spider-Man: Homecoming. I really, really love this movie. Like you said, the John Hughes atmosphere. It raises the stakes as bringing Spider-Man into the MCU, but it also, it's a good origin story. It's not your typical Uncle Ben dying origin story, but it's him trying to figure out how to be Spider-Man, and how to be a good hero at his age. I really have so much fun with this movie.

Lee Pugsley
Yeah, I've already given my thoughts on that, but I validate everything you said.

Alex Howard
So what's your number four?

Lee Pugsley
My number four is the original 2002 Sam Raimi Spider-Man. I think that what that movie did for superhero movies was very monumental. I think that it's everything that you want an origin story to be. I think that Sam Raimi found the right balance of humor, heart, and campiness. That there are definitely campy moments in all three of the original Spider-Man movies, but it just works because of the tone that he sets for the whole world of those films. And he also balances it out with other more human elements as well. I believe it was one of the first superhero movies, if not the first, to use CGI or more digital effects and everything, but they look really good for their time. And it's just really fun to watch Spider-Man across New York. I don't know, it just was everything that I could have hoped for in a superhero origin story.

Alex Howard
I completely agree with everything you're saying. I love-- the first two Spider-Man movies with Tom Maguire are comfort movies for me. If I'm upset about something or having a bad day, I'll turn one of them on. It's definitely a nostalgia factor for me. I think it's just objectively a great movie, too. I went to see the original Spider-Man in theaters a couple of weeks ago. It didn't have audio description, but there are so many moments in it that are just so iconic that I think have shaped how superhero movies go today between the MJ stuff, and just -- I mean, Willem Defoe's performance is awesome. Willem Defoe as Green Goblin, you can't get much better than that. So yeah, I absolutely love this movie.

Lee Pugsley
And there's a very timeless quality to this movie, no matter how dated some of the effects might feel or how campy some of the moments are. Whenever I watch this movie back, it just feels very timeless. So what's your number three then?

Alex Howard
My number three is Spider-Man: No Way Home. I had a hard time picking between this and Homecoming because I think the first half of No Way Home is a little bit slow, but I absolutely love this movie. What really reaffirmed it for me, I mean, I will never forget my theater experience when I first saw this movie. I think there was so much hype for No Way Home. It was literally an event. It was like Endgame, going to the theater, getting tickets on Thursday night opening because you didn't want to be spoiled. You knew there were going to be cameos, and so you wanted to experience it before it got out there. Just sitting in that theater with people cheering, especially when Tobey and Andrew come out, when Daredevil comes out, it's so good. I think the part with Tobey and Andrew and Tom all together, I think they're in maybe 45 minutes or a half hour of the movie together. All of that sequence is amazing to me. This is what we've been leading up to. It's just like, it makes me so happy. I remember, obviously seeing it for the first time, but then when they rereleased it with the extra footage, I went again and saw it in Dolby, and I think that's what reaffirmed for me. I could literally watch this sequence with the three of them together anytime when I'm sad, and it will cheer up. It's just the banter with them. I love that they were able to bring together all the movies of the franchise and really have it pay off in an incredible way.

Lee Pugsley
I fully agree with that. And that's why Spider-Man: No Way Home is also in my number three spot, too. I do think, to your point, that the first half of the movie is a little bit all over the place and lacks a sense of direction and cohesiveness in a fair amount of ways. But because the second half of the movie is so strong, once you bring in Andrew, Toby, and Tom is there as well, and then you bring back some of the villains from the past Spider-Man films, it's just such a nostalgic and joyful experience to behold, and it's done so well. It also leads to a really satisfying payoff at the end that I think the movie ends very strong. It's almost like the creative team saw the vision for where they wanted to go and what the end result was going to be, but they ignored certain beats along the way to get there until they found their stride. So I don't think that this movie really breaks new ground as much as everyone else was like, "Oh, this is the most innovative and creative Marvel movie ever." I think that in terms of story beats and stuff, it is stuff that we've seen before. But the way that it's told, especially the second half of the movie, it just lands so well. And this is the way to fan service. I think that Spider-Man: No Way Home should be the blueprint for how movies do fan service moving forward, because it didn't feel forced, it didn't feel shoved down your throat, but it felt earned. You know, unlike a movie like Rise of Skywalker, which we'll talk about on another episode, the fan service in Spider-Man: No Way Home was just awesome and was everything that you could have wanted as a fan of all of these Spider-Man iterations.

Alex Howard
Yeah, and it's funny because I think Andrew Garfield was my favorite Spider-Man in Spider-Man: No Way Home, yet he's my least favorite in the individual movies. I think that says a lot to how they wrote him and obviously, his redemption with saving MJ in No Way Home. But beyond that, I remember I was almost in tears a few times in No Way Home. I mean, first of all, with Daredevil, I think just them bringing Daredevil into the MCU is emotional for me because he is a blind character, and I love seeing the blind representation. But I mean, obviously, the actor isn't blind, but the character. But beyond that, I mean, like we were saying, just with Tobey and Andrew being there, it's so nostalgic. And yeah, it's just so emotional.

Lee Pugsley
100 %. And like I said, it wasn't forced, too. It just served the story as well.

Alex Howard
Yeah, and they did a really good job. I applaud the marketing team. They really kept that a secret for a long time. People thought maybe they would show up, but it wasn't for sure until you saw them come out of the portal. I think that's what really made the nostalgia so effective is you didn't know. You had heard rumors, but they didn't put it in the trailer.

Lee Pugsley
Exactly. Exactly. Yeah, good stuff. So what's your number two?

Alex Howard
My number two is the original 2002 Tobey Maguire Spider-Man. I mean, those original two movies are my happy place for sure. Like Willem DeFoe. It's so 2000s when you watch it now, there are a few silly things. I did think the basketball thing, and sorry, going back to Amazing Spider-Man, the thing where he dunks the basketball, I thought that was a little bit almost like a cheesiness that the 2002 Spider-Man had, but it's like a charming cheesiness in the 2002 Spider-Man. Looking back now, a lot of it is very stereotypical, but it's because this movie started that trend. And so knowing that that's where all these stereotypes originated, it does give it a little bit of a charm.

Lee Pugsley
Yeah, it definitely does. And it will always be a blueprint for so many other movies, not only within the Spider-Man franchise, but within the superhero franchise as a whole. And it will always have that place.

Alex Howard
And it's so weird looking back now, like Octavia Spencer's in that movie. Isn't Elizabeth Banks in that movie, too?

Lee Pugsley
Yes, she is.

Alex Howard
It's so weird to see these big names and they have one line or something.

Lee Pugsley
Yeah, it really is funny. Even when you look back on any of these superhero movies and you see those side characters that are now really big actors, it's humorous because at that time, we probably weren't paying attention to them because they weren't who they are now. Yeah.

Alex Howard
So what is your number two, Lee?

Lee Pugsley
My number two is The Amazing Spider-Man, and we don't really need to touch on this too much because I already touched on it. But yeah, rewatching it, it just affirms my love for that movie. And I've always been a big defender of Andrew Garfield and of the Amazing Spider-Man franchise, for better or worse. And even before everyone thought Andrew Garfield was cool again after No Way Home, I always thought he was cool. And I guess the only thing I can comment on is, as Peter Parker, it doesn't really make sense that he would be that nerdy outsider kid, especially when you're skateboarding through the halls and everything. Then you're the cool emo guy that everyone would want to be friends with and hang out with. And he's a good-looking guy, too. So it's not like girls wouldn't want to pay attention to him and wouldn't want to date him as Peter Parker. That's my old suspension of disbelief that I have to suppress when I watch that movie.

Alex Howard
I love that you like this movie so much. I do like it a lot more. I have about an hour left in it, so I am looking forward, actually, to finishing it tonight because it is a lot stronger than I remember.

Lee Pugsley
Well, that brings us to our number one movie, and it looks like we have the same number one movie.

Alex Howard
Yeah. I think so obviously, Spider-Man 2 is our number one. For me, Spider-Man 2 is a top three superhero movie of all time. I think it's so perfect. What I personally love about this movie, besides The villain Doc Ock is great. I think growing up around when this movie came out, I can remember all the Cheez-It commercials, and there were so much product placement, especially... When this came out, I was still watching Nickelodeon and stuff. There was so much marketing for this movie. But beyond that, I think what really sells me on this movie is the human aspect of it. He has to make a choice of being with the woman he loves or being Spider-Man. There's a moment in this movie where he gives up being Spider-Man because it's too much, and he just wants to do what's good for him. It's such a human emotion that we can relate to just seeing him go through these struggles. I think that's what makes superhero movies great. That's what makes Spider-Man as a character great is that we can relate to him. He's not this billionaire philanthropist like Iron Man. He's not Superman from another planet. He's your friendly neighborhood, Spider-Man. He has struggles just like everyone else does with money or women or whatever it may be. I think that's what really grounds this movie and makes it great is that we can relate so much to him.

Lee Pugsley
To add to that, too, I think that what Spider-Man 2 did is it took everything that we loved about Spider-Man, the 2002 version, and it just added more to it and deepened the characters, deepened the relationships, and deepened the themes. I think that there's this whole theme in Spider Man 2 about being human and what that means, and just the dialog has so much humanity in it within the struggle of figuring out what it means to be human and just even embracing an identity and all of those things that are very significant and things that we all continually go through. And I think that's the beauty of that script. And rewatching Spider-Man 2 recently, I do think the acting in it is also pretty... I think the scenes between Mary Jane and Peter are really solid. The end, when she gets to decide whether or not she wants to continue in the relationship, I think that's a really powerful moment. I think that Alfred Molina's Doc Ock is arguably one of the best superhero villains, at least within the Spider-Man franchise. And yeah, I have nothing bad to say about this movie. I think that it's a nearly perfect superhero movie, and I would agree that it is in my top three all-time favorite superhero movies.

Alex Howard
I think my only complaint, and I think it's the same for Dark Knight, too, because that's my favorite superhero movie of all time. I do think the ending is a little soft, just a little bit like, I don't hate. One thing that I don't really like when they do with villains is they make them turn good at the end. I'm always like, "Oh, no. I wanted them to be bad all the way to the end and have us deal with the big consequences." I think that was just a little bit like, "Oh, he realized the errors of his ways." But it stays true to the character, though, because he was good, and then the machine took him over. So it does stay true to the character, and that's fine. It works in the movie, but I think in general, I just don't like it when villains turn good. It's almost like the Batman versus Superman thing. They were fighting, but then they band together and fight a bigger villain. And I'm like, "No, you guys should keep fighting." 

Lee Pugsley
Yeah, I mean, that preference, I can validate that for sure. I think probably, too, when I'm thinking about it now within the Sam Raimi Spider-Man movies, I do notice that there is a theme of redemption and forgiveness. That's a through line with all of those films because each character does have an opportunity for redemption. And there are several moments where characters are confronted with the idea of forgiveness as well. So I think when you look at it in the context of the themes of those films, it makes sense. But I can also understand just your desire to have a villain, just continue to be a villain and not have that redemption arc as well.

Alex Howard
But I think part of me wanting that also shows Doc Ock was a really good villain. He's so good at being bad that you want him to just stay bad. You know what I mean? When he's most intriguing is when he's robbing the bank or doing all of those things. I think just wanting him to stay in that character and not go away, I think, is part of the reason why it's a little bit disappointing to me that he doesn't. But like I said, this is my favorite Spider-Man movie. It's probably, I would say, yeah, my number two favorite super movie of all time.

Lee Pugsley
Same. I love it as well.

Alex Howard
When I say Spider-Man 2, if you think of one song, what's the song that you think of?

Lee Pugsley
So this is very niche for me, but there's a song that Mary Jane sings during one of her play performances that I know from a musical. That's actually the song that I think of, but that's very on brand for me.

Alex Howard
I think Raindrops are Falling On My Head. I will always think of Spider-Man 2 when I hear that song.

Lee Pugsley
Oh, right. That would be the other song. That would be second to, they say, Falling in Love is Wonderful, which is the first song I think of. Oh, and then we didn't even comment on this, but the train sequence. One of the best sequences of any superhero movie, in my personal opinion.

Alex Howard
Oh, definitely. Yeah, that sequence is so good. It's funny because in The Amazing Spider-Man, when he is on the bridge and he rescues the kid and he gives the kid his mask. That reminded me of the train sequence because everyone sees his face and they all help him. I think it's one of the iconic Spider-Man scenes because it's almost like the city is banding together to help him. It's really great.

Lee Pugsley
It's awesome. I guess just general notes on Spider-Man as a whole, I have come to realize that Spider-Man is probably my favorite superhero. Once again, though, I think it's because of the human relatability and that he is just, at the end of the day, a normal guy just trying to figure out his purpose. And also understanding that to do good, sometimes there is a level of sacrifice, and that it's not going to be just a walk in the park all the time, but there is a level of sacrifice that may be required, but that sacrifice is worth it because of the greater good that can come out of it that can help a lot of people. And that theme really resonates with me. And yeah, I don't know. It just has so much relatability and humanity in the Spider-Man story lines.

Alex Howard
Yeah. I think it's funny that Spider-Man, he's one of the most popular superheroes. He's definitely up there for me as one of my favorites. It's a toss-up between him and Batman, for sure. But I think it's funny that there are all of these grand superhero stories in space, all of these people with extraordinary powers, and yet Spider-Man is the one that resonates with people, like you said, because it is like a human relatability thing. It's like the concept of it sounds so ridiculous, a guy with the powers of a spider. But the fact that he is in high school and he is so young, and he's dealing with real-life problems while being a superhero, I think that's what makes Spider-Man great. 

Lee Pugsley
Yeah. So before we wrap up the Spider-Man section of this episode, who is your favorite couple from these iterations?

Alex Howard
It's funny that you worded it like that because I guess that's two different things, the Peter Parker and then the Spider-Man. See, my go-to for all of those is the Tobey Maguire one. But I think Andrew Garfield as Spider-Man is probably the best one because he has a lot of good jokes and all of that. He's probably my favorite one as Spider-Man. See, it's a real toss up between Tobey Maguire and Tom Holland as Peter Parker because obviously, Tobey Maguire has the nostalgia factor. But I do think Tom Holland is a really good, what do you call it, like, high schooler. Obviously, Tobey Maguire was not... He could pass as an adult in the first Spider-Man movie. Yes, he's young, but he doesn't look like a high schooler. I'm going to go Tom Holland as my favorite Peter Parker, and then Mary Jane in Spider-Man in the original as my favorite couple. 

Lee Pugsley
Nice. For me, I would say... Oh, man, this is going to sound very biased, but own what I like. So Andrew Garfield, definitely my favorite Peter Parker. It's a toss-up for me between Tobey or Andrew for Spider-Man. I guess I'll go with Tobey for Spider-Man, just to add a little bit of variety. And because I do think he is a good Spider-Man as well. And then favorite couple is definitely Gwen Stacy and Peter Parker, Andrew and Emma, just because their chemistry is so strong. And I guess those will be my answers.

Alex Howard
It's funny because it is a real toss up for me for the Spider-Man portrayal, because I really do not like the suit for The Amazing Spider-Man. I don't like the big eyes, and it's too dark, and I really, really like the original suit. So that's a hard question.

Lee Pugsley
It is tough. And I mean, look, there can be arguments made for any... The three couples or the three Spider-Mans or the three Peter Parkers, to be anyone's favorite. You could make an argument or a case for any of those, and they would be valid cases to make, too. I guess it just comes down to preference, but I don't think any of them are bad or wrong. I think that all of them have their place in the Spider-Man franchise.

Alex Howard
Yeah. And like we said, none of these movies are awful. I mean, there are definitely some that are worse than others, but they all have redeeming things about them. So we definitely want to hear from you guys about what your favorite Spider-Man movies are. And remember, they all have audio description on Disney+. So go check them out with audio description. I mean, Lee and I have discovered things that we didn't discover before. I think soon I plan to rewatch Spider-Man 2 with audio description because I've never seen it with description before. So we'll see if I notice some new things. Before we wrap up completely with Spider-Man, I want to comment. I know you haven't seen the Venom movies or Madame Webb yet, which, I mean, Madame Webb is at the bottom, bottom, bottom of all of this. I haven't seen Morbius yet, or at least all of it. Venom 2, if I had to rank them, it'd be Madame Webb and Venom 2 at the bottom. I thought Venom 2 was a little bit, not a little bit. There was a lot of potential in that because Carnage is a big deal villain, and I feel like they dropped the ball on that. And then it'd probably be made Amazing Spider-Man 2, and then Spider-Man 3...? Maybe. Yeah, Spider-Man 3 and Venom are kind of interchangeable. But I think Sony making Spider-Man movies without Spider-Man, they haven't had a really good one yet. So it makes me kind of hesitant. I'm excited for Kraven: The Hunter because I have, like I said, I had that Spider-Man book as a kid, so I know that villain. But I'm like, "Man, they do not have a good track record so far."

Lee Pugsley
I'm curious, what do Venom and Madame Webb add to the Spider-Man universe, if anything?

Alex Howard
So with Venom, it was funny because they had an Easter egg at the end of Venom 2, where it was like, "Oh, he went the MCU and he woke up and there was a TV on." And which, by the way, Spider-Man Homecoming is one of the best post-credit scenes of any Marvel movie with the Captain America gym thing. I remember working at the theater and people were like, "Oh, it's a great post-credit scene." And it got built up for me because I didn't get to see it for the first weekend I was working. And then when I went to see it, I was so excited for the post-credit scene, and that was it. It was just a PSA from Captain America. I thought that was awesome. But back to Venom, yeah, they teased that he would be in No Way Home. And then at the end of No Way Home, he just went back to his universe. It was a totally separate thing. So it's hard to say what they even bring to the universe because Venom seems like it's its own thing. They're not hearing about each other as far as I know in each movie. I mean, Madame Webb, I feel like they should just give up on that. It's a horrible movie. But Venom's fun. Part of Venom, I think he's too fun, almost, in these movies. In my mind, he's supposed to be this villain, and they made him into an anti-hero. Which, once again, I haven't read the comics, so I don't know if that's accurate. But it is a little weird to see this scary thing being so funny. It can come off as fun, but at the same time, it's a little strange.

Lee Pugsley
Yeah, I do need to check those movies out just for my own, I guess, enrichment into the broader universe of Spider-Man. I wouldn't say I'm looking forward to them, but I'm curious. Sometimes, curiosity is enough to drive someone to do things like that.

Alex Howard
Yeah, and obviously, the animated Spider-Man movies are great as well. We're all looking forward to Beyond the Spider-Verse. I definitely want to, I don't know if we can donate this episode or contribute this episode to my son, Trace, who lives on the East Coast. He's a big Spider-Man fan. He's like four years old. And when I went to see Across the Spider-Verse, I went to the first show, the first Dolby show, so I could get him the poster that came with it, and we framed it, and it's up in his room. So, Trace, I love you. Definitely, hopefully, when you get older, you can listen to this episode, and we can give you a guide on which movies to watch and all of that. So before we wrap up the Spider-Man episode, how do you feel about a potential Spider-Man 4 with Tom Holland?

Lee Pugsley
I am open to it, honestly. I don't feel like I need it necessarily, but if it happened, I would definitely watch it. I would be interested to see where they could go based on how Spider-Man: No Way Home ended. I think there are some interesting directions they could go, and I would be curious. Although, on the other hand, I do have to admit that with the current direction Marvel has been going, it's really been hit or miss, and I would say lately more miss. So I guess my only concern would be, could it be a miss and something that's unnecessary? At the end of the day, I would say I'm here for it if it happens, but I don't feel an urgency or a need to have it made. What are your thoughts?

Alex Howard
I think it would be really cool. I know we left it, he's in the same place we've seen other Spider-Man before, Spider-Men before. But I think that nostalgia will play into it. I really think they will do a four, and they will... What I think is going to happen is they'll have Beyond the Spider-Verse go live-action at the end and then have him hand it off to Miles Morales and go that route. So I think that'd be a way to keep it fresh and keep the continuity of the story moving forward, but also make it so Tom Holland can go off and do other things.

Lee Pugsley
I would agree with that. And if they decided to do that and to hand it off to Miles Morales, that would be more interesting. And I would be more open to that possibility. And I would... Yeah, I think I would be on board in that case.

Alex Howard
Yeah, I think as far as Sony goes, the Marvel Studio Spider-Man movies, I think have been really great. I think where they struggle is when Sony tries to do their own thing lately.

Lee Pugsley
Yeah, I would totally agree with that. And the proof is in the pudding with the ways they've tried to further the Spider-Man universe. They have not been successful attempts, I would say. Before we close things up here, any final thoughts on Spider-Man related topics?

Alex Howard
No, I don't think so. I think we'll see later this year how Venom 3 is and how Kraven the Hunter is as well, which-- staying sorta positive about Kraven the Hunter because I love the character, oof. We'll see, we'll see.

Lee Pugsley
Yeah, jury's still out on that one. Okay, well, before we wrap up, I just wanted to share a really fun announcement with everyone. A few months ago, back in April, I had the opportunity to participate in the Easter Seals Disability Film Challenge. And what that is, it's a film challenge that gives filmmakers an opportunity to collaborate, to tell unique stories about disability in all its various forms. It's a five-day challenge, meaning that you have to make a film from start to finish within five days, and one of the team members has to be disabled, whether it's a visible or invisible disability. So I was the producer and lead actor for a short film that I did called Audio Description. I had an amazing team to work with, and I thought I would just shout that out here because it's relevant to our podcast. And I don't want to give too much away about the film. I think it's better if you watch it. But if you're someone who doesn't know what audio description is, I think it's a really fun way be introduced to the idea of audio description. If you're a viewer who uses audio description on a regular basis, I think you'll find it fun the way the audio description is integrated into this film. And then moving forward, we were nominated for three awards, Best Director, Best Writer, and Best Film. And we won Best Film at the Disability Film Challenge awards ceremony in May. And it was truly an honor to be a part of it. I got to get more connected to the disabled community at large, and just to see all of the creative talent that's out there and the storytelling in so many different forms. I think that's so important to give disability representation more authenticity and more visibility. If you are interested in watching my short film Audio Description, we'll go ahead and link it in our description below. But you can also go to the Easter Seals Disability Film Challenge YouTube page, and you can go to the playlist and find a list of the winning films there, and you can find Audio Description there, or you can just type in the YouTube search bar, Disability Film Challenge Audio Description, and it will be the first link that comes up. I just want to shout out my team who was amazing to work with, Nic Novicki, who's the founder of the Disability Film Challenge, Easter Seals, the judges, the sponsors, and just everyone that played a part in making this film challenge happen. It happens every year. And if you are a filmmaker, I encourage you to get involved and to make a short film and get your stories out there. That's the most important thing, that your stories are able to be told in the way that you want to tell them.

Alex Howard
Yeah. Huge congratulations to Lee on winning. It's a really big deal. And I know you're making the rounds right now in terms of news interviews and stuff. So that's really cool. And it's really cool for the podcast, too, because I was at Sundance when the theme of this year's festival, they always announce it at Sundance. So I met Nic there, and then I didn't know that a few months down the line, Lee would be winning the contest. So it was really, really great.

Lee Pugsley
Yeah, thank you. And Nic Novicki is is an amazing guy. He's just so encouraging and so supportive, and he's created such a wonderful community amongst disabled creatives, and he really cares about the personal and professional growth of all parties involved. Also, just want to give a little glimpse into the future of my short film Audio Description, that we are currently developing it into a feature film, working on the outline and treatment for that film right now. So fingers crossed on what's to come. And that will wrap up this episode. Thank you all so much for listening. It's always fun to nerd out about fun things like Spider-Man with you guys.

Alex Howard
Yeah, and we'd like to thank Blind CAN for editing this episode. Ben and his interns do a great job helping us out with editing. And if you want to look up Blind CAN, they do really good work over there. They do a film festival, as well as helping people who are new to being blind, realize that they can do much more than they think they can.

Lee Pugsley
Absolutely. Definitely check out Blind CAN. Our editor, Mark Storm, who's connected with Blind CAN on Ben's team, I want to give him a specific shout out as well. And if you have any questions about anything we talked about today or you want to give us your Spider-Man rankings, we'd love to hear them. You can reach us at DarkRoomFilmCast@gmail.com. Once again, that's DarkRoomFilmCast@gmail.com. And you can also follow us on Instagram @DarkRoomFilmCast.

Alex Howard
Yeah, make sure you follow us on Instagram because I do post reviews and other things. Sometimes I'll be posting affiliate links for Amazon. Same with our YouTube Community tab.

Lee Pugsley
Absolutely. Yeah, you've been doing some really great stuff on both of those platforms, Alex. Everyone, check it out. And last but definitely not least, we want to give a shout out to Matt Lauterbach and All Senses Go for making transcripts of this episode possible, as he's been so generous to do with all of our previous episodes. Thank you guys so much for listening. We'll see you back here next time on The Dark Room.

Alex Howard
Take care, guys.