Ep. 32: Behind the AD: Star Wars - The Mandalorian

Alex and Lee sit down with the team behind the world-class audio description of The Mandalorian (and the rest of the Mando-verse), which includes AD writer Justin Sohl and narrator Nicol Zanzarella. The Mandalorian and the rest of the Mando-verse is now streaming on Disney+. Huge thanks to Justin, Nicol, Disney, Deluxe, and LucasFilm!

Find Nicol at: http://www.nicolzanzarella.com/

If you have any questions or comments, feel free to email us at darkroomfilmcast@gmail.com

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Transcript

Lee Pugsley
What's up, everyone? Welcome back to another episode of the Darkroom, where two blind cinephiles illuminate the sighted. I'm Lee Pugsley.

Alex Howard
I'm Alex Howard.

Lee Pugsley
And this is a podcast hosted by two legally blind guys for film lovers of all abilities. And today we have some awesome special guests here, which we are so excited about. So, Alex, I'll throw it over to you to introduce our guests for the day.

Alex Howard
Yeah. So whenever someone asks me for a good example of Audio Description, if they're trying to get into writing or any of that, I tell them to go watch the Mandalorian. And so today we have on the two people behind the Audio Description of the Favreau-verse. So that's Mandalorian, Ahsoka, Boba Fett, Obi Wan, and the Acolyte. And so we have Justin Sohl, the writer of the Audio Description, and Nicol Zanzarella, the narrator of the Audio Description.

Nicol Zanzarella
Hi, guys.

Justin Sohl
Great to be here.

Alex Howard
Yeah, we are so, so excited to talk to you guys. I think this is our first time having, like, a team on. The narrator and the writer. Which I know, since the pandemic, you guys don't really get to work in the same room as much anymore, correct?

Justin Sohl
That's correct, yes. Sort of started going remote during the [laughs], uh during the pandemic.

Alex Howard
That's great. So I think we want to start off just to know, like, your process from start to finish. Like, Justin, when you first get the episode, how many times do you watch it? What's your process of writing? And then we can pass to Nicol. And what's your process in narrating what Justin writes?

Justin Sohl
I'll watch it once through and then go back to the start and describe it. If it's a new series, I'll try to watch a couple of episodes to know sort of what's occurring. If there's any sort of style that's specific to that show, I'll go through from start to finish, write it, and then I usually go back over. So my rough draft is just like, whatever first impressions come to mind. Then I'll go back, read it through to kind of hone it and have an idea...  Sometimes what's good on the page, does it have the same cadence to it when it's spoken? Also, I want to see what would be maybe difficult for the narrator to read. And so I'll do a little self edit there. Then typically, with a show like a Star Wars show, there is a client review.

Alex Howard
What are the notes from Lucasfilm typically? Because I know there's a company called New Rockstars that I watch, and there's a bunch of YouTube channels like that who do breakdowns of nerdy TV shows that I watch, like the Mandalorian and things like that. And they, when they do their rewatches, one of the rewatches they do is with the Audio Description. And sometimes they're like, "Lucasfilm says this is described as this." And so it's like, does Lucasfilm really have a lot of say in what you write in the description?

Justin Sohl
Yeah, I mean, they don't tend to make a ton of changes, but if I, say, inaccurately described, you know, a droid or something like that, they might, you know, they might catch that. And they're also not even just looking for canon stuff, but sometimes to them, it could be like, "Well, when I'm reading this, it's a little confusing to me what you're trying to say. So maybe we can say this instead." So it could be anything from plot related to just how clear it is.

Alex Howard
So, like, for -- I'm trying to think of an example that's not a huge spoiler. So, like, at the end of season two of Mandalorian, this was years ago, so I'm assuming I can say this -- when Luke shows up. Did they-- You don't obviously reveal Luke until he shows his face, right?

Justin Sohl
Yeah. And that, I don't think I got that scene until the last minute. Sometimes I won't get a full video until right to the last minute. For instance, season one, I didn't know what Grogu looked like until I was pretty much done with the season. And then we got updated videos. So, you know, I had clues from the script, and every now and then, I'll look back at an episode and I'll be like, well, it's not 100% right, because I was having to go with my best guess as to what we were seeing. But, uh, so there's certain things like that that might be redacted.

Alex Howard
How much time did they give you to, like, describe Grogu?

Justin Sohl
I maybe had, like, a day before it had to be... We typically will do a couple of passes on the recording. Nicol can speak to this, but there's an initial recording where they record the whole script. Then we will do a quality control check where somebody views it from start to finish with the narration to catch any potential errors there or any flubs. And then so we'll send notes back to the narrator to pick up any lines that are needed. So I believe in that case, it was, we handled it in the pickups, which is usually, it's about a day. [laughs]

Alex Howard
Okay, so then, Nicol, like, when he sends you the script, do you... You don't get to watch the whole thing until it's done right? You just read what he wrote or how does that all work?

Nicol Zanzarella
Different companies work in different ways. But in this case, usually I get sometimes very heavily redacted video that goes along with the description that comes my way to narrate. So I don't get a chance to watch it ahead of time, usually, or anything like that. But I will, in real time, when my recording day is scheduled, sit there and, you know, I will sometimes go scene by scene where I'll watch to understand what's happening first and get the tone of it all, and then go back and, you know, record the description that is provided for those scenes until we have a finished episode. The first season, I was just working on what Justin gave me. And then after that, we, I also had a sort of client liaison who would then kind of be in the session with me. So sometimes now we'll have moments where Justin gets a lot of texts during our recording session. If something's like, "Hey, we're not sure if is this the right thing?" Or if Lucasfilm has something else to add in that moment that they didn't get a chance to review, we might stop and kind of touch base with Justin in the moment or say, "Hey, can we look at this in pickups?" But it's sometimes faster paced than you hope, because you want to sit there and watch the whole thing and kind of get a feel for it. But I will take that time and listen and watch. And especially I get excited to get the music and effects along with it as much as we can, and when that's provided. Because for me, to go along with the glorious poetry that Justin provides us with, because really, I feel like that's what you're doing in this with--. This is the most work that we've done together, I think, Justin. So I really get an example of your writing in this world. But I am... One of my favorite things about Justin is I learn new words all the time or I learn different meanings of words. I was like, "Wait, I thought this meant this." I think I emailed you once. You blew my mind with a word. I was like, "This is amazing!" with the way that you describe things. So to just kind of... I savor that as much as I can in the moment and in a way that makes the most sense, hopefully for the viewers.

Alex Howard
Sorry I'm gonna pass it to Lee in a second, but I wanted to add to what Nicol said. When I watched the Mandalorian or these other shows, that's one of the things that I really love, is I literally learn words watching this. So I'll, like, pause and be like, "Hey, Google, what does this mean?" You know, like, I love it so much.

Justin Sohl
Yeah, it's interesting. Like, yeah, sometimes I debate about that. I mean, obviously, I don't want the audience to be lost, but I always think back to, like, when I was reading books as, like, a teenager or whatever. It's like I would learn new words all the time from the context of, like, how [laughs]. So I'm always like, "Well, if I can provide a context for it." Especially in something like Star Wars, where there's so much terminology. You know, if somebody comes in, and Mandalorian is their first glimpse into Star Wars, you know, they wouldn't have necessarily heard of a blaster before or, you know, or a Quarren or a Jawa, you know. So, yeah, so it's as much as I can, you know, I want to use that terminology so that the super fans can still enjoy it but not leave the newbies lost. So if I can use the terminology and define at the same time.

Alex Howard
Yeah, it sounds more professional that way, for sure. Lee, did you have any questions for them?

Lee Pugsley
Yeah, I just want to comment on a few things that had already been touched on, but that is a tricky balance that I hadn't really thought of until now, about writing terminology in the Audio Description that caters to the super fans, like you were saying, but also brings in the new viewers. And I can imagine there's probably certain times where I could see that getting really challenging as to how to strike that right balance. But I want to commend you, Justin, because you do that so well. And the word poetic that you use, Nicol, I think, is an excellent word to describe the Audio Description writing for all of the Star Wars projects that you've written on, Justin. It's just such a rich vocabulary that creates such beautiful tapestry of imagery with all of that. And for both of you, Justin and Nicol, this is the first time that we've had a team of Audio Description writer and narrator on our show together, which is really exciting. And so, on that note, I was just wondering how much do you guys collaborate with one another? Or is it more just Justin, you do your thing, and then Nicol, you do your thing? Like, what's communication like between you guys? And is it more of a collaborative or independent process, putting this together?

Justin Sohl
It's still largely independent, but I will say in these Star Wars shows, especially with Nicol, it's more collaborative than most projects would be, partly because we have this liaison. Michael Cohen at Lucasfilm is someone that I work with and Nicol works with. So sometimes we're all brought in together, like she said, during... Sometimes during a live recording, I'll get a text [laughs] "Move this word to this, or how do you think this would work?" Which is great because I love that they can just make those changes on the fly because we're all working toward making the best products possible.

Nicol Zanzarella
Yeah, I was going to say the same thing. A lot of times this part of our work is largely independent, but I feel like that first season of the Mandalorian was a gift that continues to keep giving because not only did I just feel lucky to be asked to narrate that show, but then all these other things, the other seasons of that, the other shows that have come from it. And through that, I feel like, has kind of led to our ability to get to collaborate, however limited that is. I mean, you're really the one writer that I know that I work consistently with. Sometimes we don't always know who's written the projects that we get. A lot of times I just, I get the assignment and I have my schedule and I log on and I record what's there. And something I really hope will start to change is that the writers get their credit at the end so that we know who's doing all this great writing. But sometimes I don't even know whose writing I'm working on. And this, in this particular case, with these, with this sort of Star Wars-verse, this portion of it that we get to work on, it's been so nice because it does feel like even if we don't have questions or have to-- I know who's behind the writing and I know who I can ask a question to if I need to. And I feel really guilty when I'm doing early morning sessions and I know you're getting texts in your early morning start of the day. I'm sure it's a very interesting chunk of time when we're working on these things because you're always on alert, Justin, but it's deeply appreciated.

Lee Pugsley
A side question for you then, Nicol, as an Audio Description narrator, I know you just mentioned that you don't always get to know who's writing your reading. Having done enough projects now, would you say that there's certain Audio Description writers that you're familiar with their work? So if you get an AD script and you don't know who wrote it, you could look at it and be like, I have a good guess that it's so and so.

Nicol Zanzarella
That's a great question. There might be one or two additional people outside of Justin whose quality of work really stands out. And then beyond that, sometimes it depends on which company I'm lucky enough to work for and who I know or don't know. I've been so lucky to spend the majority of my Audio Description career so far with Deluxe and their team. And they just, I feel like they have really shown me what quality writing in all aspects can be and the kind of team that they have. So in that regard I can often tell. And, but I'd say most of my experience concentrated in these last couple of years has been with Justin and a few of the other sort of lead writers on the Deluxe team. And they all just generally have this through line of quality that's easy to tell.

Alex Howard
What was the, I mean, for both of you, what was the tryout process or audition process like for Lucasfilm? Like obviously for the Mandalorian, maybe you initially thought it was going to be one show and then it turned into, you know, five or six different shows in a whole universe and they want to keep it consistent. But was it a long audition process for both of you to get this big gig that keeps on giving?

Justin Sohl
I, uh... I mean I was already full time staff. I mean they knew I had a lot of knowledge of Star Wars. [laughs] I've worked on... The first Star Wars project I worked on was the theatrical release of Attack of the Clones, so, so I've worked on it for a while. So it was, I think it was kind of an easy assignment. It also worked out scheduling wise, you know, with our department when the Mandalorian came in. And so Mandalorian, I think we made the choice of Nicol. Correct? Or... Because we already knew.

Nicol Zanzarella
Yeah, I was gonna say you know more than I do because I think whatever audition process there was happened before the opportunity came my way. So you might know more than I do about what happened behind the scenes. But yes, I was just thoroughly flabbergasted to open an email one day that said, "Hey, would you narrate this for us?" Um, so, yeah.

Alex Howard
I do think Nicol's voice lends itself to sci fi a lot. Like I think there have been other sci fi movies that I've gone into where I'm like, "Oh my God, it's Nicol's voice. This works really, really well."

Lee Pugsley
Agreed. Yeah, you Have a great sci fi narration voice, Nicol.

Nicol Zanzarella
Thank you. Thank you very much. I feel really lucky because I think with my audiobook work, I get to play in a lot of different genres that then helps me in the, in the world of Audio Description as well. But I really appreciate that. I have a lot of fun with sci fi.

Alex Howard
Justin. I know with all of the Star Wars terminology and all of that, how much does -- I think it's called Wookieepedia -- do you use that to cross reference?

Justin Sohl
Oh, I use it constantly. Yeah. [laughs] It's a lot to keep in your head. So, yeah, sometimes it'll be like, "I know that alien was in the cantina scene, but I can't remember what it is." And it's also sometimes... I'll search for, "Okay, I know what this alien race is, but has it ever been spoken or introduced?" Or, you know, I don't--. The tough thing with something like Star Wars is there's so much lore. There's books and video games and the animated series. And so I try to stick with what's been established in the live action films and series. There's some things from the animated series that, um...

Alex Howard
Like Cad Bane.

Justin Sohl
Cad Bane I treated as new. I mean, I think he was named pretty, pretty early on. But it's funny, that is my one area where I haven't seen all of every episode of all the animated series. So when I saw Cad Bane, I thought it was a new character until I quickly learned that he was in Clone Wars. But yeah, so for a character like Cad, I wouldn't have called him out right away. I just described what he looked like and wait for them to name him. 

Alex Howard
That makes sense. I mean, so on Disney Plus, unfortunately--. They're so, they're so good at Audio Description. But the last season of Clone Wars is the only one described. And then the last season of Rebels is the only season that's not described. So if you're fully blind, you haven't seen the whole show of either one either. So I think it's good that you go live action, assuming that this is the viewer's first time, you know, into these characters.

Justin Sohl
Yeah. And because also when you see a character in live action, it's going to look slightly different than it did in animation. You know, if they switch an act, you know, they have an actor, say, like Mon Mothma in Return of the Jedi is the first time we see her. And, and she's an older lady. And then we cut to, you know, say, the Mon Mothma in Andor. It's a different actress, you know, so I wouldn't necessarily call her out as Mon Mothma until it's established that's who she's playing. I would try to describe the physical characteristics that were the same so that, you know, the viewer can listen to it and be like, "Oh, yeah, that's sounds like the same. I bet that's Mon Mothma." Yeah.

Alex Howard
Which, yeah, like you were saying to the reverse of that. I watched Rebels before I watched Ahsoka. And so then when the characters reappeared in Ahsoka, I really appreciated your description of, like-- Um, what's her name? The pilot. I cannot remember her name right now. But she has, like, the goggles on her.

Justin Sohl
Right, right.

Alex Howard
And so, like, your description of her look, I was trying to figure out, "Okay, how accurate is she compared to the animated?" So, yeah, I really did. I appreciated that you described her look a lot.

Justin Sohl
Yeah. And one interesting thing in Ahsoka is there is at one point a mural of the whole crew done rendered in the style of the animated series. So I actually did call out some details there that weren't established because it was more of a direct Easter egg to the animated series.

Alex Howard
Yeah.

Lee Pugsley
Yeah, I like, um... I know Alex and I have talked about this many times, but it's really great when Audio Description calls out those Easter eggs to other properties in whatever universe we're a part of. And, Nicol, question for you regarding narration. I know that you-- I don't want to say you have an easier job than Justin, but I know that, like, you know, Justin will, like, research some of the terminology and everything to make sure that it's correct. When you're narrating, do you... How often do you come across terminology that you're like, how do I pronounce this?

Nicol Zanzarella
[laughs] That's a great question, and I kind of agree with you. I do think-- I won't say that narration is easy, but I do feel like I do get the easy part of the job because Justin's done all the work and all the legwork, and I just get to sit back and try to do justice to it. But, yes, there are a lot of times, luckily, Justin is great and will give me pronunciation a lot of the time if it's something that's a little more obscure. And if it's something that's not, but it's been a while since I've visited other parts of the Star Wars-verse. I either have the benefit of having Michael Cohen in my back pocket who can help, or I'm looking it up on the fly. But for the most part, again with the teamwork, we're usually able to find things pretty readily or easily.

Justin Sohl
Yeah, Michael's great for getting the official confirmation of how certain things are pronounced.

Nicol Zanzarella
Yeah, yeah. He's deeply plugged in. [laughs]

Justin Sohl
Yeah. Sometimes we'll look up clips like, remember Mos Eisley? Some characters have pronounced it Moss Eisley and some Mose Eisley and things like that. You know, determining which we're going to go with and stay consistent.

Nicol Zanzarella
Yeah

Alex Howard
I know with the Acolyte, there was a clip that went a little bit viral with the description of the, of his back, the muscular back of the character. And how did you guys react to all of that?

Justin Sohl
Do you remember reading that, Nicol?

Nicol Zanzarella
You know, I have to say this is a funny story, because that clip came up for me the first time in an audiobook discussion group that I belong to because the theme of the clip was this sounds like romance narration. And so the romance narrators all posted that as kind of, you know, a funny joke. And I don't think many of them knew I had done it, but I ended up commenting on this post saying, "Yeah, well, you know, I actually had a really hard time in that moment because it was so easy to slip into, you know, a different voice." And I had to... Actually, I do remember sort of stopping myself or, you know, sometimes you read ahead. Like I said, I'm watching the scene as it unfolds first, and I was like, "Okay, this is Audio Description. You're just narrating, like, you know, don't go too far. Just tell the story, you know, facts only in the mood of the piece." So. But I do remember that, because I do remember it was kind of a more conscious effort than sometimes it is otherwise. Because it's also, I feel like, the first time a moment like that has come up in these shows where we are sort of seeing a different side of a character, or he's using that to his advantage in the moment, which is ultimately why it reads the way that it does, I think.

Justin Sohl
Yeah, that was one of the unique features of that series, I think, is that it had a moment like that.

Alex Howard
Yeah, it was really funny. I was watching the breakdown of that episode, and he played that clip from the description. I got all excited, and then two days later, I saw it like, other places, and I was like, "Oh, my God. Like, you know, whatever can bring attention to description, I guess."

Justin Sohl
Yeah. At the end of the day, I think that's the great thing, is that, like, I think so many people learned about Audio Description from that clip going viral. And, you know, it's a similar story. I know, like, Bridgerton recently. Yes.

Alex Howard
Yeah. With Liz Gutman.

Justin Sohl
So, yeah, between those two, I think a lot of people who never knew Audio Description existed now know about it. And now know how easy it is to turn on for any of these shows on Disney.

Alex Howard
Yeah. I had another question for you, Justin. I was so fascinated when you were saying there are certain things that Lucasfilm keeps from you, which I think is--. I mean, as a Star Wars fan myself, I would be kind of freaking out, like, "Oh, my God, this must be something big." Like... And I wouldn't be able to turn my brain off of, like, "What could this be?" You know, like, what are some instances of other things that they've hidden from you? And, like, what has your thought process been on like, are you excited to find out what it is just like all of the fans are?

Justin Sohl
Yeah, I'm trying to think of an example. But, yeah, I do come at it as both "It's my job," and "I'm a big fan and would be watching these shows [laughs] anyway," so. So, yeah, there's definitely some excitement of, you know, when I know that something happens. Like, "Oh, this character shows up and, you know, wait till people get to watch this episode."

Alex Howard
Like, young Leia in Obi Wan. Like, did they hide that from you or no?

Justin Sohl
No. No, in the context of the dialog, you would have known who it is and everything. Grogu was a little different because that species is interesting. There's not even a name for that species that Yoda, I think Yoda and Yaddle, are I think the only two aliens of that species we've seen. So that was an interesting choice because it's not, it's not a species that is referenced in dialog. No characters identify this species, really. And so not seeing the character, you would have no way of knowing what it was without physically seeing it. Whereas with Obi Wan, the context is, this is Leia. And so, yeah, there'd be no need to redact that then.

Lee Pugsley
In relation to that, too, with, like, you know, keeping certain reveals, you know, under wraps... When you or Nicol get these really big, like, spoilers or plot points that the rest of the world doesn't know about. I mean, I know that they wait till the last minute to give you those big reveals for the Audio Description writing and everything, but when you get those plot points, does it drive you crazy to know, like, "I know something now in the Star Wars universe that fans are gonna flip out over, but I can't talk about it with anyone yet?"

Justin Sohl
Sure.

Nicol Zanzarella
Hahaha!

Justin Sohl
I'm used to that by now because I've been doing this so long that, you know, I know I can't talk about [laughs] anything I work on. But yes. Yeah. Sometimes I can't wait till something comes out. So [laughs].

Nicol Zanzarella
Yeah, I would agree. I feel like you get used to the idea of, like, Justin saying, like, security is a huge part of what we do, and you as the company, of course. But even for me, especially now that, you know, we aren't always working in the same space. But it also just adds to the ridiculous giddiness of, like, just feeling lucky to get to do what we do. You know, it's not so much "I know something you don't know," but just that excitement, like, "Oh, my God, I can't believe I got to work on this and it's going to be out soon." And, you know, that kind of thing, it just adds to the feeling.

Alex Howard
Yeah. I think it's almost like. Like, when I went to Sundance and I saw certain movies, I'd be like, "Oh, my God, I can't wait for people to see this." And then, like, just waiting for it to drop, like, and seeing what people say about it, it's kind of, like-- excited for the excitement of, you know, the fans and all of that. Right. Um, Nicol, are you a Star Wars fan yourself, or were you before the Mandalorian as well?

Nicol Zanzarella
I am. I feel like I have... It's just a memory from really being young and going to the movies with my dad, and I don't think he even knew what he was taking me to see. But that's when I think of Star Wars, that's the memory I go back to the most. So I don't know all of the details the way I think Justin does, and I've not followed every piece of it along the way, as far as I'm still not caught up on a lot of the animated shows as well. But I just remember that first episode, that first session in the studio, the first episode of the first season of the Mandalorian, and I remember walking out thinking how special that was. Like, "This is something special." And that really excited me. And I think it kind of lit a fire again in kind of wanting to follow through and catch up and rewatch and revisit. So I am. I've always been a fan. I don't know, there are many, many bigger fans out there than I am, but it just was an undeniable feeling to be able to participate in that way in this thing that is just such a part of so many people's lives, including my own.

Justin Sohl
Yeah, I remember seeing that first episode of Mandalorian too and being blown away, like, because I don't think anybody knew. Everything was kind of kept under wraps. There wasn't that much buzz about it. And it was so good. It was done so well.

Nicol Zanzarella
I honestly don't even think that I knew... Because A) the title was one of the things that is usually kept. It's not advertised, and it's, sometimes, I don't even fully know what it is until I really dive in. And so I knew I was showing up and I knew, you know, that it was something interesting. But I don't even think until I got in the room to see and work on that first episode, I was like, "Oh, THIS is what this is a part of." So, yeah, it was, yeah. It was a surprise. A really happy surprise all around.

Alex Howard
I remember I was working at DC at the time, DC Comics in the mailroom. And the first episode from that, it was a water cooler show for sure. I remember going in the day after it aired, and everyone was like, talking about, like, "Oh, my God, did you see Baby Yoda? Like, he's a part of Star Wars?" And I was like, everyone was talking about it just in the first one. It's amazing, the, like, the legacy, I guess, that Star Wars has. And now that you guys get to bring all of that to a blind audience. So I really want to thank you guys and especially, just like--. I mean, like I said, I tell people to go watch the Mandalorian for good Audio Description. But it really is like, whenever there's a Star Wars show, whether it's good or bad, at the end of the day, like, the Audio Description is great. And, like, it's a--. It always feels very professional, like, almost on another level than other things, because you--. Like the vocabulary you use and then the pronunciation that Nicol brings, it's just like, it feels very clean and like, almost like an Apple product, I guess you could say, you know? Like, opening up a new Apple product.

Justin Sohl
Yeah. I feel like with the Star Wars, and with all Lucasfilm properties, people put a little extra care into making it as good as it can be.

Nicol Zanzarella
And I also have to shout out, because I am not the only voice. I'm lucky that I get to work on the shows that I get to work on. But there are a lot of other great narrators that are doing, that are working on shows that Justin's writing the Audio Description for in that Star Wars universe as well. So I am not the only, I am not the only voice. And there are a lot of really talented narrators out there working on this stuff with Justin. And so props to them.

Justin Sohl
And sometimes narrators will pop up in cameos reading subtitles and stuff. Yeah. [laughs]

Lee Pugsley
To the point of the care that goes into these Star Wars properties. It really shows. Just the level of excellence and the way that I think that the team behind the Audio Description here has really, you know, raised the bar for. Really stand out Audio Description in so many different ways. It's really commendable. And just wanting to reiterate what Alex said, that both of you guys have contributed significantly to the enjoyment and the full enrichment of the Star Wars universe for the blind and low vision communities. And I'm truly grateful to you guys for that.

Justin Sohl
I'm so thrilled that people love, love these shows and the Audio Description. Yeah, because like, you know, I want everybody to be as excited about watching it as I am, you know.

Alex Howard
Oh, definitely.

Nicol Zanzarella
Yeah. It's really cool to just be a part of the experience for everybody. It's nice to, it's a gift. I think it's a gift to us just as much.

Alex Howard
Is there a scene in particular that either of you had that you are, I guess you could say, the most proud of or... Whether it's because it was difficult to get through or just because it was the most fun to work on?

Justin Sohl
So many spring to mind. I'll be the--. The one that's sticking in my mind recently in the Acolyte was an unusual scene. It was the camera lingering on Lee Jung-jae's face as Master Sol after this mission had just gone horribly wrong and people have died. And it was significant because the Jedi is not supposed to fall prey to their emotions and you see so many emotions play out on his face. So capturing that was a unique challenge, especially because, you know, in Audio Description, we're not supposed to say what a character's state of mind is because we don't know exactly what the state of mind is. So it's describing the performance and, you know, what is the face doing? And so that sticks in my mind recently only because it was so different from what we would normally describe in a Star Wars show.

Nicol Zanzarella
There's really something about those quiet moments too, when you write them and how you write them. There's--. Because, you know, we're used to, you know, you get the big breath before, you know, you're going into an action scene and there's a lot of things to narrate and a lot of words to say, and you hope you're making everything clear. But then when you get those really singular moments, there's something really special about trying to just be able to give it just the right touch to match your writing, but the feel of the moment as well.

Justin Sohl
And that's what I love about Nicol's voice, because she is so great at modulating without going overboard in any direction. There's, like, subtle tweaks to match the emotion of the scene.

Nicol Zanzarella
Thank you. I wanted to also add, when you asked about scene, though, I think this was season two of the Mandalorian. This one is just, whenever I think of something--. It wasn't complicated, but I believe we had approximately 200 lines of only description in one scene that had to do with ice spiders. And I was just, it was--. You know, usually when you do these things, you have a general idea of how many lines of description there will be, give or take 50 or 100 based on what's going on in the episode. And I remember looking at that one and thinking, wow, that's a lot of lines of description for this size episode. And we got to that moment and it's just like 200 lines for maybe what, three, two to three minutes of the episode. And it was just, it was--. I just remember that kind of blew my mind because there was no dialog at all. And you just had to describe every single detail of what happened for those few moments. And that sticks out to me when I think about some scenes from these shows.

Lee Pugsley
I commend you both on the excellent work you did in this scene. And once again, with all of the other Audio Description you've done throughout the rest of the show and the other Star Wars shows as well. But I'm happy that we're able to give our listeners a sample of the beautiful work that you guys do. And before we let you guys go, a question that we always like to ask for both of you is, how did you guys get into Audio Description?

Justin Sohl
I like a lot of describers, I just sort of fell into it not knowing it existed before I saw that there was an opportunity to do it. I started with the Media Access Group at WGBH out here in California. They had a little office, and so this was early 2000s. At that time, there weren't a lot of Audio Description companies. They were one of the big developers of it in the U.S. Yeah, I came in at the perfect time, just as the service was really growing and expanding and flourishing.

Alex Howard
How did you find out about, like, that Audio Description was even like a thing? Because I know a lot of people don't even know.

Justin Sohl
I saw a job listing and at that time there wasn't, you know, it was pre streaming. It was pretty broadcast television mandate. So there was no way to check it out before I went in and interviewed for the job. And as part of the interview for the job, they sit you down with a scene from a show and you just describe it. I mean, they give you the explanation of what it is they're looking for, what Audio Description should be. And that was the test, was just describing a sequence from the show. And that was the primary part of the job interview.

Alex Howard
That's awesome. What about you, Nicol? How did you find Audio Description and all of that?

Nicol Zanzarella
I also sort of fell into it. I found out about it in a boxing gym in Burbank. [laughs] Paolo de la Fuente, who was working in the Audio Description department at Deluxe at the time, was there at this gym where my partner was teaching boxing and strength and conditioning and where I was taking some classes. And they actually had a conversation without me about what I did, which at the time was audiobook narration. That still is that, but that's what I was doing solely at the time. And through my partner, Paolo said, "Well, do you think she'd be interested in Audio Description?" And so he came home and he asked me this question and I was like, "I don't know what Audio Description is." And I immediately got online and I looked it up and I--. At that time there was. there were some audio described shows on Netflix. So I, I pulled it up. I think Iron Fist was the thing at the time that I--. It was the newest release with Audio Description. And I started, I pulled it up and started watching and I was like, "Oh yes." I was like, "This I want to do." And so the next time I got to have a conversation with Paolo, he set up an audition for me with Matt, who was also in the department at the time. And I got to come in and try it out. And they were like, "Yeah, we think you'd be good at this." And the rest has been history for about seven years now.

Alex Howard
That's amazing. Do you have any audiobooks that you recently did that you want to plug or anything? I would love to listen to some books that you've narrated. I don't know. I don't know if you've done any Star Wars books. But beyond that, do you have any books that you recommend?

Nicol Zanzarella
I have not done any Star Wars books. [laughs] I would love to, but I haven't yet. And that's very kind of you to ask. Thank you. I actually will have some cool sci fi stuff coming up soon, so maybe I'll shoot you a message when those actually come out, since you enjoy that. And I'm very lucky that I have a list of things on Audible and in the other wherever you can get audiobooks. And there's multiple genres, so whatever anybody enjoys listening to. Hopefully I've touched on something there. Some nonfiction or some fantasy or some romance, and also some good old fashioned cop dramas, which I enjoy as well. So [laughs].

Alex Howard
That's great. And Justin, do you have anything that's been released lately? I mean, since or just before the Acolyte?

Justin Sohl
Yeah, non Star Wars stuff? Some interesting ones were Sasquatch Sunset, which was all Sasquatches grunting in the woods, no dialog.

Alex Howard
Okay, hold on. Hold on one second.

Justin Sohl
Okay.

Alex Howard
I did not know you wrote Sasquatch. Okay, so Jamie and I, our editor, who is on this call right now, we saw Sasquatch Sunset at Sundance and someone told us not to go because there was no dialog. And I was like, "I want to go MORE now because that means it's just wall to wall Audio Description." And I laughed harder in that theater than I think anyone else because of the Audio Description. I had so much fun with that movie. I did not know you wrote this! Sorry, I'm freaking out right now a little bit. That's like one of my favorite description tracks of the year because I think it really, like, enhances, makes the movie so much funnier. So thank you so much. Especially when, like, there's a scene where the Sasquatches are, they see a road and they're like, what is this road? And they like, defecate on the road. They, like, do all these things to, like, try and figure out what the road is. I was laughing so hard. So thank you so much for that description. That's great. Okay. Sorry. [laughs]

Lee Pugsley
To comment on that too. Yeah, really tremendous work on that Audio Description track. You found the balance of bringing out the humor as well as the vivid imagery and the mood of what was going on through the Audio Description that you wrote for that movie. I mean, I'll be honest and say that the movie itself is probably not... It wasn't my thing, but the Audio Description track definitely stands out. And I do recognize the excellent work that you did for that film.

Justin Sohl
I'm glad you liked it.

Nicol Zanzarella
Now we just have to pitch whoever picks up that film to keep the Audio Description track from Sundance so the rest of us can hear it. They don't always travel with, you know, with the same companies and distribution. So now I'm, I'm going to pitch for that because I want to hear it.

Alex Howard
Do you, do you know about that process, Nicol?

Nicol Zanzarella
I don't. I. Yeah. I only know that it doesn't always travel. You know, if you have something that's in a theatrical release or that was released at Sundance but then gets picked up by different distributors, a lot of times then the Audio Description, the track does not always travel. Am I correct, Justin? I mean, that's been just some of what I've understood.

Justin Sohl
Yeah, it's... I think it's getting better now. You know, the issue is that, like, there's always turnover every few years at the studios. And, you know, back in the day, the theatrical department wouldn't coordinate with the home entertainment department. So sometimes we would describe movies for the theater and then a different company would have done the home entertainment released because they didn't communicate. And then they started to get that aligned and then streaming came along and so again, a whole new department. Not exactly sure what's been described and what hasn't. And there's now the complication of, now different studios are licensing their content to different companies' streamers. And so I think nowadays they are all trying to do a better job of tracking what exists because we'll get a lot of messages about doing conforms of previously done material for different platforms. So I'm hoping, I hope they'll be more consistent with consistency going forward.

Nicol Zanzarella
Yeah, yeah.

Alex Howard
Once-- I know it already got a theatrical distribution, but once that comes out on streaming, we'll have to let our listeners know. Because yeah, that's a really great track. It's literally, the whole thing is Audio Description. There's no dialog, so it's great.

Justin Sohl
I also worked on Silent Night recently, which is also another silent movie that was...

Alex Howard
That's true. That also had a great Audio Description track. That's John Woo, right?

Justin Sohl
That's John Woo, right, right.

Alex Howard
Did you see that one, Lee?

Lee Pugsley
I did not see that one. It's still one that I plan to see. So in the next couple months, I think I can make my way around to it.

Alex Howard
Yeah, we'll thank you guys so much for being on the show. I know we've been trying to do this for a while, but it's great what you guys bring to the AD community and help blind and low vision people be massive Star Wars fans. So thank you guys so much.

Lee Pugsley
And as we close this episode, if people wanted to follow you or find you, where can they do that, online?

Justin Sohl
For me, I don't really have too much of a social media presence, but LinkedIn. I'm on LinkedIn. I'm in the Audio Description discussion group on Facebook.

Nicol Zanzarella
I'm gonna have to find you on LinkedIn. I am also in the Audio Description discussion group and I am on Facebook and Instagram and need to up my game on LinkedIn. So maybe Justin is my inspiration to do that.

Alex Howard
Do you have a website, Nicol?

Nicol Zanzarella
I do. It is Nicolzanzarella.com and I will spell that only because my parents did funny things with my name. Nicol is N I C O L and then Zanzarella is Z A N Z A R E L L A dot com.

Alex Howard
And we will link that in the description of this episode as well.

Nicol Zanzarella
Thank you.

Lee Pugsley
And for any listeners out there who have questions or comments about anything that we've discussed today or any other topics, you can always reach us at DarkRoomFilmCast@gmail.com. Once again, that's DarkRoomFilmCast@gmail.com. And you can follow us on Instagram and YouTube @DarkRoomFilmCast.

Alex Howard
And shout out to Jamie GuyOnAWire on Instagram and YouTube for editing this episode. We're also putting this episode up on YouTube so you can see the video feed. And I know Jamie likes editing those video episodes. So shout out to Jamie and go check out his horror shorts on his YouTube channel.

Lee Pugsley
And a shout out to Matt Lauterbach and All Senses Go for making transcripts of this episode and all of our other episodes possible. And thank you guys so much for listening.

Alex Howard
And we will be back very soon in The Dark Room. Take care guys.

Lee Pugsley
May the force be with you.