Ep. 38: Succeed Without Sight Summit Interview with Alex, Live from Sundance 2025

Listen to an excerpt from the Succeed Without Sight Summit interview Alex did while at the Sundance Film Festival, hosted by Kristen Smedley. 

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Transcript

Lee Pugsley
Hello, everyone, and welcome back to another episode of The Dark Room, where two blind cinephiles illuminate the sighted. I'm Lee Pugsley.

Alex Howard
I'm Alex Howard.

Lee Pugsley
And this is a podcast hosted by two legally blind guys for film lovers of all abilities. And today, we are going to take a slight deviation from our normal format because we had something really cool that Alex was able to be a part of, and we thought we would share that with you. Alex, I'll let you give a little more details on what we're going to do today.

Alex Howard
So today we are going to be playing for you the Success Without Sight Summit interview that I did while I was at Sundance. It's hosted by our friend Kristen Smedley, and we will be playing that for you. We thought it had some relevant information about being low vision and also some relevant information about audio description.

Lee Pugsley
Yeah, and I was able to jump in and watch the panel that Alex was a part of for this summit, and I thought there was some really insightful things that he had to say, and it was a really good conversation. So hopefully, you'll be able to get something out of it, whether or not you're blind or sighted. Hopefully, there can be some good takeaways for you as well. So here we go.

Kristen Smedley
All right, here we go. Hey, everybody. It's Kristen Smedley, co-host of the Succeed Without Sight Summit, and co-founder, I'm a co-everything. It's much more fun to do things with friends, co-founder of Thriving Blind Academy that hosts the Succeed Without Sight Summit. Now, our summit main event all day is tomorrow. It is going to be super fun. And we have a special guest here tonight that we are doing Summit Eve. That's what we're calling it to be professional and super fun with a nice branding to it. Really, it's just that the agenda for the summit got jam-packed, and our guest, his schedule is jam-packed. So we were like, you know, that's the trouble with you thrivers. Your schedules are very busy. If I was co-hosting the, uh, "Sit on your couch and have a great Saturday," we would have much more ease with our schedule. But this is about folks that are out in the world, thriving, doing all kinds of things in the world, and really living lives on your terms, not what other folks say that you should be doing. And that's where we want everybody to be moving to. So we're going to have a super fun time tonight. We are here with my new buddy, Alexander Howard, who is coming to us from a place, a thing, an event, an icon that I cannot wait for the day that I get to be there too, the Sundance Film Festival. Are you kidding me? How are you doing tonight, Alexander?

Alex Howard
Hey, guys. I'm pretty good. I have my first official movie tonight. We had a volunteer screening a couple of nights ago, but my first festival event is tonight, so I'm excited.

Kristen Smedley
Wow. So catch everybody up. Or let's just start at the... Probably in the middle, and then we'll go back and forward and have a good time. What is it that you're doing out there at the festival?

Alex Howard
Well, I came last year with a friend. For those who don't know, I mean, obviously, I'm legally blind, but I couldn't have done this last year on my own. I'm struggling to do it this year on my own, to be honest. But they have a companion pass, where if you need someone to be with you because you have a disability, you can get that. So my friend Jamie went with me last year, and we did a whole... You know, trying to test out audio description, test out captions. It wasn't on any official capacity. It was just like, let's just see how all this stuff works. That was super, super fun. That was my first... I guess I did the virtual Sundance in 2020, but last year was my first in person. And then this year, I was so determined to come back. And so I actually ended up volunteering in the Accessibility Department of Sundance. Now, I'm on the other side of stuff. Whereas last year I was contacting this department, telling them what was wrong. Now I'm answering all the requests. People request accommodations with wheelchairs or people break their leg on the slopes or whatever it may be -- captions, whatever it is. Marlene Matlin has a thing here. There's a big Deaf population here right now. So we're just trying to implement all the accommodations that everyone has in all the different screenings that's going on. So honestly, I can't even remember what movie I'm seeing tomorrow night because I've dealt with all these different titles for all these different people today. But no, it's a lot of fun, and I'm really excited to be here in a volunteer capacity, too. It's different, but it's a lot... It's a different perspective, and I really appreciate it.

Kristen Smedley
So Let's talk about this. Are you in the accessibility space? Are you in filmmaking? How did you get to this point to be doing all that at this mega film festival?

Alex Howard
So I am an accessibility consultant specifically for low vision and blind people, because that's my perspective. But I did this also as an education thing, so I can see what other people need of other abilities that go to events, that go to films. I've grown up loving films my whole life. I always wanted to work in the film industry. But I think finding the accessibility department and finding that the blind perspective is missing from the whole film industry, I feel like me trying to give that perspective has really guided my journey since 2020, I think. I feel like I've really found my place in the industry between audio description, and I love movie theater-going, so I'm really trying to advocate for proper use of devices and audio description, movie theaters. There's a lot of change that needs to be made, so I'm really trying to empower different companies that they need to make this change and that it's a positive thing. So my time at Sundance this year, I'm using it as a learning opportunity to learn what other people with other disabilities need and take that into account when I consult with different companies as well.

Kristen Smedley
This is really incredible for me, Alexander because we were just talking in Thriving Blind Academy. So Thriving Blind Academy that puts on this summit, we're an online, for right now, virtual community. Every Monday and the first Saturday, we have mentorship calls where we work through the Thriver formula and stuff like that. As you can imagine, on Monday for Martin Luther King Day of Service, we talked about service. One of the pillars at the academy -- we have parenting, transition to the workforce, wWe have all these different pillars. But one of the biggest ones that no one seems to have -- I saw it as a missing piece in raising my two blind sons -- is service. Right? So we were talking about our... It's not even an expectation at Thriving Blind Academy. It is just ingrained in folks that when you come through our programs, we're then saying, "Okay, now, not only are you going out in the workforce or chasing the life that you want, what are you doing to be of service to your community?" Whereas typically people will say, "Oh, Blind or visually impaired, you will be served by the community." You have no idea how much all of my neurons are firing that you are not just at festivals like I am and in the industry saying -- because I'm creating a film now, I did a first short film, like a statement to say, "Look, we made this with audio description. We did this. Everyone in the film is blind or visually impaired" -- to make a statement of this is what we expect and demand. You're actually there making sure it happens as opposed to saying, "I want this, I need this, and you need to do it." You're just making sure for all the communities. And that, I think, is why it didn't dawn on me when we first were chatting on LinkedIn. Then as I was hearing more about what you were doing, I think that was the piece that I was like, "Oh, my gosh, you need to come in and talk with our group" because that's the vibe that I don't experience a lot in this community, and we want to 10X that vibe. Would you agree that it's not really there that much?

Alex Howard
Yeah. I think we definitely all need certain things. I think there are different personalities with different types of people. I've definitely, as I've grown up, become much more outspoken. When something's wrong, I like to speak up and tell them it's wrong instead of just... I mean, there are times when I'm like, I don't want to complain, but I feel like I'm definitely not a complacent person when something's wrong. And so definitely, with the theater I go to, the movie theater I go to, it's very much they're on top of accessibility. Starting in 2025, my first two times at that theater, they messed up, which was very rare. But beyond that, they are the most popular AMC in the country. So they see all kinds of people and they're used to accessibility. But I know that's not that way everywhere. So I'm not only trying to obviously improve the entire movie-going system for myself, but I think for the blind community, it's super important. I love the movie-going experience, and I think it's very communal, laughing with people, gasping at horror, which is my favorite genre -- The Substance this year, was like, my favorite movie experience was watching that for the second time -- and knowing what was coming and hearing people react who didn't know, and it was amazing. And so like having that experience that a lot of blind people who the theater in their town, maybe they're not good at accessibility or it's hard for them to get out. Obviously, being blind is very isolating, too. If you can't see very well, you don't know who's in the room, you don't know a lot of things going on. So having that experience of being in a packed theater with people and hearing people laugh and hearing people cry and all these things, I think it's really important. And so I think I'm just trying to extend to other blind people the same joy that I get from going to the movies. That way we can have a conversation about going to the movies and have a conversation about good AD. Me and my co-host on my podcast, The Dark Room, we talk about movies all the time in that capacity, but I'd love to extend that conversation to many more blind people than just us two.

Kristen Smedley
Yeah, I love it. I mentioned that I have two blind sons, and I have a sighted daughter. Actually, my oldest, he's going to be in the summit tomorrow talking about the Meta glasses that he got for Christmas, and he literally doesn't take them off his face. But when they were young, so when I grew up, of course, we didn't have all the apps and all the bazillion channels. I'm in Philly, 3, 6, 10, 29. That was what we had. Then we got cable, and it was like, "Oh, my God, $10 a month?" My parents were like, "We're not spending money for cable," except for the sports. I think that's why I grew up such a sports addict. But we loved... I loved. My whole family would go to the movie theater. It was such an experience. I saw all the original Star Wars, all the Indiana Jones, all of those super cool... I mean my father is a phenomenal storyteller. He's one of the best storytellers I have ever met. So I grew up with him telling stories. Then I grew up in the theater, in the movie theater, watching the iconic best stories of all time. So then I have two blind sons, and I thought, "I guess film is out of, no pun intended, out of the picture for me," right? And then, I guess because I have such a big family and movies were just such a big part of our family, my oldest son loved going to the movies. And it would drive me crazy that we had to... Sometimes I would see the film first so that I could be able to sit there and tell him all the things and in real-time and all that stuff trying to keep up. Then they came out with audio description, which when that first came on the scene, at least for us, it was my younger son couldn't stand it. He didn't want to go to the movies because they talked. The describer would talk over a character speaking. It was just very cumbersome. But my older son was just so happy to have some access to the film. And I asked one time in... I am so old. In a listserv, where a lot of people probably don't even know what that is anymore, an email group before we had Facebook, we had to talk through email... And I asked this huge group of blind adults their thoughts on, "Is there something else I could do for my boys at the movie theater?" And this one man was so mean, and he was like, "Why are you forcing your blind sons to go to the movies?" I was like, "Well, wait a minute. One of my sons loves it." He loves the whole, like you're saying, the experience. He loves to do things with groups of people, too. Everything that you said, that's my Michael, too. He loves that experience together. Mitch is like, he has no patience. If he can't access something or if somebody's making a noise next to him, they are just so different. So I'm like, "Well, I have two very different sons, and one really enjoys it. So what am I supposed to do now"? He was very apologetic. He's like, "Oh, I forgot the people that are blind are different just like snowflakes." And I'm like, "I'm never speaking to you again. You're annoying me." But it was when audio description got really good that then, Mitch really enjoyed doing the movie theater experience as well because he could fully access it. Now, I believe that you're involved in... Or maybe, how about if you explain to folks what audio description is for people that don't -- it's always surprising to me -- people outside our community who have no idea of our inside terms.

Alex Howard
Yeah. So audio description is like a narrative track, a secondary track that you can turn on and off on shows, like if you go into languages. And it's basically a narrative track that talks in between lines of dialog. So it'll be like "Alex picks up his water bottle" in between us talking so that the viewer knows what's going on. And for me, it's really important for anyone. But I have enough I have enough sight where I can tell when I'm missing something, when something happened. They hand something off or they show a text on screen, and I'm like, "I don't know what that was." And so there's a big disconnect. The whole point of AD is to give the blind audience the same experience that a sighted audience would have. So for example, I'm sorry, Deadpool and Wolverine came out six months ago. So if you haven't seen it by now, I'll know that you're going to see it. But Deadpool and Wolverine, there's a scene where they say "Steve Rogers down his hood." And then my friend whispered over to me, "Oh, I bet that's Human Torch." I was like, "No, that's not Human Torch. That's Steve Rogers" because the AD said that. And then he flies up with flame. And I was like, "Oh, my God, that WAS Human Torch." And so that's that shock factor where you're like, "I want to be surprised like everybody else." So then I went and saw it again, and they said, "Someone who appears to be Steve Rogers." So in the moment, you're like, "Oh, that's him," and then it's not him. And so we want those shocks just like everyone else. Horror should be disgusting AD, comedy should be funny. It's like, give us the same experience to everyone else. That's the whole point of audio description is to give blind people a similar experience.

Kristen Smedley
This is what I love about this community and folks like you coming and chatting with me because I just learned something. And I don't know... I don't know after 25 years of raising successful blind kids and all the different things that we've done, sometimes I don't know why things haven't dawned on me. I didn't realize, maybe because I'm on this stupid app so much with the Voiceover that talks the text for you, I didn't realize that the audio description, if it's funny, the audio describer is funny. If it's scary, then they're scary. That's how they do that? I thought it was just a--

Alex Howard
They're not funny themselves, but the language should be describing the slapstick humor or, for example, in The Substance, describing the grotesque... If it's R, make it R-rated language. If it's PG, PG language, but don't baby us with what we're watching because, you know -- assume that we're the proper age to be watching this movie. So, yeah, I think that's my biggest thing is give us the same experience everyone else would have. Last year, I saw Thelma at Sundance, and everyone loves that movie. And I had... I don't know if they changed the AD track. Maybe they did. But it's a very physically comedic movie. It's June Squibb basically chasing down a thief the whole movie. And it's a Mission Impossible spoof. So it's very much physical comedy. And I don't think they described the physical comedy very well because there were moments where everyone was laughing in this giant auditorium, and I didn't know what they were laughing at. So it gives you this sense of, "I don't belong here. I'm at Sundance, this is such a cool thing, but I'm not getting what everyone else is getting. So why am I here?" And it's like imposter syndrome almost. And so it's not good. That's the experience that you get. And even if you're watching at home, if your friend brings up, "Oh, remember when she fell down?" You're like, "I didn't know she fell down." So yeah. I'm advocating for a proper equipment-use, but also good audio description tracks, too.

Kristen Smedley
Wow. You've got my brain really going now as we haven't gotten to the point in production for audio description on my baseball film that... I mean, we're just in-- The screenplay was just finished, and now we're fundraising and looking at crew and actors and stuff. But that's interesting. See, this is also why, and this is an important point for folks that are watching, and I want to ask the community that's here a question in a second. But it's an important point to have people involved in the creation and production from the beginning. My son, Michael, has been involved in the film. I mean, it's about his life and me, too. But also, he's on there as a creative director of making sure that these kinds of things, that audio description is really giving what is actually happening. I know from my boys, they like when they get... Actually, Michael's friends, he's a Penn-stater. He graduated, but when he comes home, it's never just him. There's always more Penn-staters that come with him. I always have kids on air mattresses and all. They take over my living room. But they watch movies here. All of his friends are sighted, but they watch them with that audio description track because Michael needs that. But they love it too now because they'll get information from that, that either they didn't catch visually or just like you were talking about, the surprise factor. But it's important to have someone or someones on the teams putting these things together from the beginning so that there aren't those, "Oh, now I feel like this wasn't even... I was in afterthought."

Alex Howard
Yeah. There's a saying we say, "Nothing about us without us." So if it's about blind people or deaf people, include them in their perspective, because how do you know what's right if you're not getting their perspective?

Kristen Smedley
Yeah. We'll even put in Thriving Blind Academy together. Charlie is a visually impaired adult. We're only a few years apart, and he has kids, too, and he has this whole life. But his experience, an adult with vision loss and having vision loss almost their whole life, even though I have two blind sons, I cannot relate to that experience at all. I can relate to a parent that is sighted having visually impaired kids. That's my experience. So there's no way I could build a whole community and do all of this and projects and programs and all the things from the perspective I have. It doesn't relate. I mean, I can certainly hang out and know a lot of things, but I don't have that unique experience. And quite frankly, and I say this all over the place now, especially as I'm watching this film and other films out there and being truly inclusive, having people with that lived experience in a program or a production that you're putting together really gives that end project an advantage over all the other ones. I see that in the workforce. I see it in these productions. It just has an advantage that other ones don't. Do you see the same thing?

Alex Howard
Yeah. I mean, if you include us, yeah, I definitely see the same thing that you're talking about. I also think I -- I know my parents are watching, but I'd be curious to talk to your son, too, because I would bet that he's not fully blind, right? Or is he?

Kristen Smedley
He is.

Alex Howard
He is? Okay. So maybe it is a little different for him. But for me, there are curbs I can see sometimes, and then there are curbs I can't see other times. So I won't correct my mom or my dad or whoever I'm with when they tell me there's a curb coming, if I can see it, I won't tell them, because then the next one, I know if the lighting is different or whatever, I'm not going to be able to see it. So just because you've dealt with one legally blind person doesn't mean you dealt with all of them because we all see very differently from each other.

Kristen Smedley
Yeah. And unfortunately, and if your parents are watching, then they can feel my pain. I don't know why all children that come from the same people can't be the same. I mean, all of my kids are very different. But Michael and Mitchell, I think everyone, they're three and a half years apart. They have the same blindness. Mitchell has a little bit... He has a little sliver of vision that is wonderful in some regards and drives me and him crazy in other regards. Because there's times that he thinks, like you're saying, if the lighting or something where he can typically rely on that and then he can't, that's frustrating. Whereas Michael's like, it's just he had it, it's gone, whatever. But everyone expects almost like a Michael Jr. to walk through the door when Mitchell comes through and I'm like, "Oh, boy." Michael was born with a beautiful filter in what he talks before he speaks. Mitch? Nah, he doesn't have that gene. He's just going to tell you what is right on his mind. They're very different. Even the retina specialist one time up in Massachusetts was like, "Kristen, they're different down to their retinas." But yeah, and one loved going to the movies, one didn't. Now they do both love it. I will say the little short film I did to try to, you know, like dip my toe into this whole thing, I did it with a group of people. When I premiered it here in my town, they had created it with... It was actually our mutual friend, Michelle Spitz. By the way, she said, "Hi and have a good time."

Alex Howard
Oh, yeah.

Kristen Smedley
The group that edited and put the whole thing together, the first one that they sent to us after it was all edited for our approval, didn't have the the audio description. I'm like, "How in the seven months that I have been emailing with you and everything did you forget to put that in?" They're like, "Oh, we're creating two different versions." That didn't even dawn on me, but it was a sighted crew that did all of that. It didn't dawn on me to use it in two different... And I said, "I don't want the one with no audio description. Everything I'm using this 18-minute film for is about inclusion. Why would I..." So anyway, I premiered it here in my town. It was, I guess, the entire audience at the theater is all my sighted community. And Mitch was the emcee, and we had a panel of people that are blind and low vision, and they were the only ones there. It didn't even dawn on me to tell the audience, "By the way, this has audio description" before we showed the film. I was like, "Oh, my God, they are probably like, 'Why is there a narrator telling me what I'm seeing?'" Do you know what's funny? Afterwards, and we had the panel and a whole really cool conversation, I was like, "By the way, I totally forgot to tell you, that was audio description." Almost every single one of them in the after-party told me that they didn't realize that that was something for the blind. They thought it was just enhancing the film for them experiencing it so they didn't miss anything. I was like, "Oh, then maybe every film should just have it and stop having this 'Do they have the track or not?'"

Alex Howard
Yeah. I know they do open caption screenings at AMCs, and I think they do it at some other places. And I'm trying to get them to do open accessibility screenings. But I know for some people, if they're neurodivergent or they're ADHD, having too much audio and captions and everything, it's too much for them. So I know for some people it's not great, but to have that option, at least, have an open AD screening or have it on your phone or in a device you can get. It should be there for everything. We're not quite there yet, but hopefully soon we'll get to the point where it's not even a question. There are some movies here this year that I'm surprised don't have audio description that I'm like, "You know what? I'm just going to go because I want to see the Q&A." Like tonight, I'm going to be with Dave Franco and Steven Yeun, and there's no AD, and I'm like, "I'm just going to go for the Q&A and hope that..." A lot of Sundance films are dialog-driven, so I'm like, "I hope I'll be fine." But I usually don't do that. Usually, if it doesn't have AD, I don't even give it the time of day. But there are just some at this festival where I'm like, "I want to see this person answer questions. So I'm going to go for that."

Kristen Smedley
Let me ask you this. For a film that has audio description, does the trailer have it, too?

Alex Howard
So Disney does it, Apple does it, and I think that's it. And usually it's only on Disney Plus it'll have it, or only on Apple TV Plus it'll have the description. But most companies, no, they don't do it with trailers.

Kristen Smedley
Wow. Okay, that has me thinking to make sure. I'm just thinking, I'm taking mental notes as we're in production. I don't want to come back seven months later and say, "Oh, my God. Now you got to think about getting that in the trailer." It just needs to be in there from beginning to end. Interesting. So you're talking about the things that you're doing tonight. What's your schedule like tomorrow? What do you get to do there tomorrow?

Alex Howard
I'm seeing my first... Well, the volunteer screening I went to, that had audio description. So that was cool. But the first Sundance film with the audience with AD is tomorrow afternoon. It's a movie called The Ballad of Wallis Island with Kerry Mulligan. And I think there's another one tomorrow night that I'm going to with AD. It's like a midnight movie, which is the horror section of Sundance. But since this is the first step in movie distribution, they premiere here, and a lot of times, they'll get bought, and then it'll go to the regular theater. I have no doubt that the movies I'm seeing that I'm excited for without AD will get it when it goes to theaters. Hopefully. I know one of them is A24, so that will for sure have it. But if they get big distribution, they will have eventually. So it's not like if it's not at Sundance with AD it won't have it. So that's good. But yeah, I'm trying to balance between... Like, there's one movie that they have that sounds so up my alley about a woman who switches places with a chair. It's like a Freaky Friday. And I'm like, "What is this? I need to guess this." There's no AD, but I'm like, I need to check out what this is. And so I'm going to that. But most of it, I'm like, if there's a movie with AD at the same time, I'm going to prioritize that one.

Kristen Smedley
I know that this is going to be on a lot of people's minds that are either in the room now listening or watching this later. You're talking about Sundance Film Festival, right? I know people have a visual in their minds, and you're talking about hopping from, "Oh, I might do this one, or I might do that one. I'm not sure. I'm doing this tonight. I'm meeting these people." And you've also talked about your vision or lack of vision, right? Especially in different lighting and all that. So I know that the question that so many people are thinking is, "How? How are you managing all of that?"

Alex Howard
It does make it a lot easier that I was here last year. So I know the venues pretty well already. Also the volunteers wear... It's over there, my volunteer coat, but they wear these bright colors, so it's easy to find... I mean, I'm going to be wearing it, too, though. So I got to be careful. People are going to come up to me at screenings asking me questions. I'm going to be like, "I don't know." But it's easy to find them. But I think it's also... Navigating here IS difficult. I have my Airbnb. There's a building across the way there. My first day here, I got in at night. Then when I had worked the next day and then came to my Airbnb, it was daytime, so the lighting was different. They dropped me off at this building and my fob didn't work. And I was like, "Where am I? I don't know." I know I'm in the vicinity because it was the same sensor, but I have no clue where I am. And so I actually called my mom and I was like, "Can you look at a map? Is there a map online?" Because I can't zoom in on my phone. It's like, 5 degrees outside, and I'm from LA, so I'm like, "This is freaking cold." Then a van drove up with a guy, and I was just like, "Hey, can you... Do you know where this building is?" She was like, "I'm going there. Come with me." So like those things just happen, where if I need something, something will happen, especially with my cane out. People are very, very willing to help. But it is really difficult to navigate all of that. And honestly, back to what you were saying about things changing, usually at Sundance, if you come as a patron, you have your set schedule. But because I'm a volunteer, all my tickets are waitlist. And so there's a volunteer waitlist line, so it's pretty much guaranteed I'll get in as long as there's not 20 volunteers trying to go. But that's why it's like, "Okay, am I actually going to get into this movie?" And then it's like, my schedule is very flexible. So that's why I keep saying "I might get to this." Because a lot of the time it's like if I'm working and the movie starts an hour after I get off, you're technically supposed to be there an hour before. So I'm like, "How many people are going to be in line when I get there?" It's a gamble.

Kristen Smedley
Yeah. Well, this is what I love about everything that you're saying. We're going to really dive into all of this tomorrow in the summit with the Thriver formula. That's what this organization is built on. It's essentially for folks that know the K-12 school system, the ECC, the Expanded Core Curriculum. There's all those skills that aren't academic that we teach kids growing up with vision loss, like independence, advocacy, all that stuff.

Alex Howard
You have to be really, like, what do you call it? Like willing to change with what you're doing. Like really, I don't know what you would call that, but like adaptable. You have to be very adaptable.

Kristen Smedley
Yes!

Alex Howard
Because you're expecting one thing, and then if that thing is not there, you're like, "Someone moved it" or "Where did it go?" You have to troubleshoot a lot.

Kristen Smedley
Exactly. That's why it's the ECC and Success Principles by Jack Canfield, because my co founder and co-host tomorrow is a Success Principles trainer. He was actually featured in Jack Canfield's Success Principles book. We merged the two for this Thriver formula because it incorporates all of that. And what I want folks to be hearing as we're talking about this, I don't want parents panicking that you're doing all this and then you get there and it's dark and all of that. First of all, what I see from this entire community and everyone that has had success is it's like failure after failure after failure. You learn, you learn, you learn, and the passion is there. The interest and the passion is there, so you're going to figure it out. That's what I've witnessed with my boys. When the passion... Michael lives in Florida, he works for Disney. I just was with him. I was like, "Could you please ask them if you can have a sighted guide?" Because I got to go to Lititz, Pennsylvania, they have the big conference for all the sound, the crew for major concerts. I was in line next to the guy from Metallica that runs their band for the shows and everything. Those kinds of things. Michael's at that conference, and I'm like, "Ask them if you can have a sighted guide so I can go." He figured --. It was the same thing. It was minus two degrees. He was like, "I don't care. I thought I was going to die. It was so cold." But the point is that when you have the interest and the passion, and it's your dream that you're following, not us wonderful parents that decide that we're going to put our dreams on our kids. I know you all, we do it in love. I got you. I did it, too. But when you have that passion and interest and dream and pursuit, you're not going to stop. You figure it out. Then, like you said, "Oh, now something's in the way. I'm going to problem-solve to get around that." Believe me, Michael's been in airports and he calls me because it's too long to get on it when he's running to a plane waiting for Be My Eyes or Aira, he's just like, "Mom, tell me what I'm seeing" as he's running through the airport.

Alex Howard
We're gonna Be My Eyes in my situation, that wouldn't help me because they don't know what building I'm going. You really have to think like, "Okay, who can I call right now?" I think the cane really helps with people are so nice and so willing to help. When I went to TIFF, I got lost at TIFF, which is Toronto International Film Festival, a different country. I was panicked. And this woman, she was walking the opposite way, and she was like, "Oh, I'll walk you to where you need to go." And it was like, she walked me the way back to my hotel. I was like, people... I don't know if that's just Canadians, but people are really nice most places.

Kristen Smedley
I have to tell you, my Mitchell has not really embraced the cane. He needs it and he used it, but he memorizes places so fast. I was nervous for him at college that I literally... All of us parents are afraid that our kids are going to be dead in a ditch when they go without us somewhere, let alone someone that doesn't use his cane correctly. By the time I picked him up for Thanksgiving, I'm always saying, "Are you using your cane?" And he goes, "Oh, Mom, that thing's with me all the time." And I said, "Oh, my God, you're finally embracing the tools." He goes, "No, Mom, it's a chick magnet." [laughing]

Alex Howard
It's a conversation starter for sure. Because when I go to events, I'll have to ask someone for help, which means most events I go to are people in the industry. So then they're like, "Follow me." And then it's naturally like, "So what do you do?" And they're like, "Oh, I work at NBC or I work at Disney. And then I'm like, "Oh, really? Well, this is about me."

Kristen Smedley
[laughs]

Alex Howard
And normally, if you're just a sighted person, it's probably weird to be walking next to a stranger and be like, "So what do you do, man?" But if they're helping me out, yeah, it's definitely a conversation starter.

Kristen Smedley
It's interesting that you say that because Michael and Mitchell meet everyone, everyone, wherever they go because of that. And they've learned to be like that. Like "Look, if I'm walking with you and touching your elbow, we're going to a conversation and get to know each other a little bit.

Alex Howard
We're going to get an after-party or something. I got invited to a Universal after-party at TIFF because I met a woman because she was directing me to where I needed to go.

Kristen Smedley
That's cool. Were you always, were you always advocating, asking for help, and embracing all the tools? Were you like that your whole life?

Alex Howard
No. So 2020, I think I really started identifying as, like, "I am legally blind. I need..." I used to hate audio description. I thought it was annoying. And then now I don't watch anything without it, pretty much. And then same with the cane. I used to be so self-conscious about the cane. I was like, "People are looking at me." I couldn't see them looking, but I could feel it. And my doctor was like, "It usually takes about two years for people to really embrace the cane." And you were definitely right because after a bit, I think you start to learn that you'd rather be looked at as a blind guy doing he needs to do. That's what people look at me as. But before it was like, "Is this guy drunk? What's wrong with him?" Because you're like feeling for the door handle. You're doing things that people think you're like... That's the assumption, that you're drunk. And it's, you know, if you have the cane with you, it's like, "Oh, that's why." It's an explainer. We shouldn't need an explainer. But I think it does help just with society viewing us. This guy, I think yesterday, he was like, "Good for you for being out here and doing Sundance," and I was like, "Are most people just at home doing nothing?" That's great that he made that comment, but I was like, "I'm not going to stop what I'm doing just because I'm visually impaired."

Kristen Smedley
I'm curious, and I am one of those people that ask 10,000 questions, and we might not have an answer for this now, but you do have me thinking with it. I'm going to be listening with another set of ears tomorrow and thinking about this. I'm wondering if... Because I'm thinking about Michael and Mitchell and all the folks I know that do use a cane and are out there in the world and attract these cool vibe people. The most interesting people my kids have gotten to meet. I wonder if it's you get to a level of comfort with yourself and the tool, and it's what you are putting out there, comfortable, cool, it is what it is, it's no big deal, that that's why you're bringing those people to you. I wonder if there's an element of that to it, where your comfort level is, the vibe that you're putting off? I don't know.

Alex Howard
I don't think of myself as confident. I guess I am. I never really like... I mean, obviously, we're all still working through our own vision journey. But no, I think, right. No one at AMC... I've been there hundreds, probably 200 times since they got the new devices, and I'm there literally two or three times a week. No one has I've never stopped and been like, "How do you watch movies?" I would love for that to happen. I walk with my cane prominently. I want people to ask me questions because I bet people are wondering, "How does this guy watch movies?" But I think you're right. I actually made a friend, a movie group that I started going to the movies with now because I used to go by myself pretty frequently. And I went to see Anora, and this guy came up to me after. He was like, Hey, I just want to apologize. You walked by, and as you were walking by, I was yelling at my friend saying, 'Blind, blind,' because he was showing me a trailer and I didn't want to see it. I wanted to let you know I wasn't yelling at you."

Alex Howard
I was like, "Oh, I didn't even hear you." And then I was like, "This guy's probably really nice because he felt the need to come up and apologize to me." So I was like, "Do you guys come often?" He was like, "Yeah, we come every week." And then I was like, "Do you guys want another person?" So now I go with them to the movies. It's crazy that you meet these people and it's almost like a filter of who's nice and cool and willing to help you, and then you attach to them.

Kristen Smedley
Man, I didn't even expect to get this out of our conversation, Alex, that you're really... I know because I talk to the folks and I'm in the Facebook groups and all of that. There are so many people struggling that they feel isolated and they feel like they can't have a social life, and then they don't know how to go get one. You just so wonderfully talked about you don't necessarily have to be scheduling and standing there, "I need someone"--. It just happens. You're out there doing your thing. Like I said, you've got that vibe that is cool and relaxed, and you're finding the people. That's good stuff.

Alex Howard
And that guy, actually, he lives five minutes from my house. I mean, it's great to have his company, but also he picks me up for the movies, too. I feel like if you put yourself out there, good things will happen for you. But no, anytime you want to have us back, I mean, I'm sure I can speak for Lee, we would love to come back. Any time we can encourage other blind people to follow their dreams, and especially in entertainment, but doing anything, we love doing that.

Kristen Smedley
I love it. I love it. And we can wrap up on there.

Alex Howard
I hope you guys found the Summit educational. It was a lot of fun doing the interview. And since that was the second day at Sundance, in terms of advocating for myself, which I know I talked about in the Summit interview, there was another funny story that happened to me I was at Sundance. Like I mentioned, there was the part where I got dropped off at the wrong building. And then a few days later, I ordered some groceries, and they said they were delivered. And I did not know where they were because they were not on my door. So I had to go out. This was a night in the snow, and try and find them, and I could not find them. And I was so stressed out because it was my breakfast and lunch for the next day. There was a car that pulled in the parking lot across the street, and I flagged them down, and they helped me find my groceries. It was in some building I had never been to before. They ended up being actors in one of the movies at the festival. So that was super helpful that they helped me find those, and I think it was also doing part to my advocacy for myself.

Lee Pugsley
Yeah. No, I think that's really good. And I think that the takeaway from all of this, both within what you said on the panel and the story you just told, is that advocating for yourself is not a sign of weakness. It doesn't diminish your identity or who you are. It basically is just a reminder that you have self-awareness to identify when you need help. And as we're communal beings, it's okay to ask for help because the truth of the matter is, whether or not you have a disability, whether or not you're blind or sighted, we all need help at different points in time in life. And I think that's the beauty of humanity is that we all are here to help each other. So, yeah, don't ever feel like advocating for yourself is something to be ashamed of or something that you can't do. I think that there are certain moments for all of us to be able to do that for ourselves.

Alex Howard
I completely agree. And on that note, we will wrap up this episode of The Dark Room. But stay tuned for the next episode because we have our Oscars Audio Description Roundtable for 2025. So that should be a lot of fun.

Lee Pugsley
Yeah, and we have a lot of really fun panelists this year. There's a few returning panelists from last year that will be on the roundtable, but also we're adding some new people into the mix, so that will be very exciting. So thank you guys so much for listening. And if you want to reach me or Alex, you can always email us at DarkRoomFilmCast@gmail.com. Once again, that's DarkRoomFilmCast@gmail.com. And you can follow us on Instagram at DarkRoomFilmCast and YouTube at DarkRoomFilmCast as well.

Alex Howard
And yeah, please feel free to reach out to us. We actually got two listener emails in the last couple of days, and it was really, really great to hear from you guys. So keep reaching out. We absolutely love it. And we'd like to thank All Senses Go and Matt Lauterbach for making captions and transcriptions available for this episode, as well as BlindCAN for funding the editing for this episode.

Lee Pugsley
Well said. And yeah, thank you guys so much for listening once again, and we'll see you here next time on The Dark Room.

Alex Howard
Take care, guys.