Ep. 39: Close Up With Roy Samuelson, Author & Audio Description Performer

Alex and Lee chat with Roy Samuelson, an audio description performer, voice actor, speaker, coach, and author of the book, A Voice Actor's Guide to Audio Description Performance: Crafting Immersive Entertainment Experiences for Blind Audiences. In our discussion, Roy highlights what makes for a good audio description performance and chronicles his experiences in the accessibility field.

Learn more about Roy's book here: https://www.roysamuelson.com/book/

You can listen to some insightful interviews with audio description professionals on Roy’s podcast “The ADNA Presents” here:

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-adna-presents/id1513229594

Check out the Audio Description Project here: 
Https://adp.acb.org/

Check out the Blind Can Film Festival hosted by our sponsor, Ben Fox:
https://www.blindcan.com

Search for Audio Description availability for any title on the American Council for the Blind's Website!

If you have any questions for us or want to connect, feel free to e-mail darkroomfilmcast@gmail.com and be sure to follow us on Instagram and YouTube at @darkroomfilmcast 

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Transcript

Lee Pugsley
Greetings, everyone, and welcome back to another episode of The Dark Room, where two blind cinephiles illuminate the sighted. I'm Lee Pugsley.

Alex Howard
I'm Alex Howard.

Lee Pugsley
And this is a podcast hosted by two legally blind guys for film lovers of all abilities. And today, we have a really special episode for you. Me and Alex are so excited about our special guest, who Alex is going to introduce right about now.

Alex Howard
Hey, guys. So today we have Roy Samuelson, who is an AD performer. He's been an AD performer for 10 years. He has a new book called A Voice Actor's Guide to Audio Description, and we are very happy to welcome Roy Samuelson.

Roy Samuelson
Thanks so much for having me, guys. It's great to be here, Alex. Hey, Lee.

Lee Pugsley
Hey, thank you so much for being here. Like I said before we started recording this, I've been familiar with your work for quite a while now, so it's really exciting to actually have you on the show now.

Roy Samuelson
It's great to be here. I've been enjoying what you're putting out and laying down for the Dark Room audience here.

Alex Howard
Yeah, thank you so much. I know you've done some very notable audio-described titles. I know you've worked on things like The Bear and The Last of Us and House of the Dragon. So most likely, our listeners will recognize your voice. But we always like to start out when we interview someone in the AD industry. How did you get started in this industry and what motivated you to get involved, especially being a sighted person yourself?

Roy Samuelson
At the time I started audio description, it was purely for the voiceover opportunity that had come up. And since then, I found that the personal connection, both with our audience and also some personal stories with friends of mine that really made it lock in. And as a sighted person, I noticed that there was a lot of misunderstandings that sighted people were doing in the work of audio description. And I wanted to see what I could do in the performance side. It might at least bring the quality that I knew audio description could be when it came to the voiceover side of things. And so that's been a really important part. The actual first experience was going in for an audition, just like any other voiceover audition. And I still remember staying up that night so excited. Like it was, I celebrate Christmas. It was like the night before Christmas. I was so excited, not because, "Oh, my gosh, I hope I book it." That was a part of it. But the other part was just how many aspects of voiceover were included in the audition itself.

Lee Pugsley
That makes a lot of sense. Just seeing that there are some similarities and carry-through from being a voiceover performer to going into the audio description realm and being an audio description performer. It's one of those things that people don't often think of how similar those things are, yet they're also a little bit different, right?

Roy Samuelson
Yeah, it's a great point. I think one of the misunderstandings about audio description performance, and I use that in my book, Audio Description Performance, A Voice Actor's Guide to Audio Description Performance, because it does make a difference to see it as a performance. It's not like we're clowns running around playing Shakespeare, but it is a nuanced and a high wire act kind of performance, where a lot of skills that I found in acting, both on camera and in voiceover, were completely applicable to what we were doing when we were reading scripts for audio description.

Lee Pugsley
Now, out of curiosity, what was your first exposure to audio description? I know for a lot of other guests that we've had on the show, it was like, "I was slipping through a TV channel or a streaming service, and I accidentally turned on the audio description button." For other people, they had a blind friend who introduced them to the concept of audio description. But what was your very first experience with being exposed to audio description?

Roy Samuelson
Such a great point, that accidental audio description discovery. For me, it was in the experience for doing the audition. I had never heard of audio description beforehand. I will let you know that this was way before streaming services had entered the deal here. So I'm kind of talking ancient history as far as audio description is, even though audio description has been around for 30 plus years. But in the time where I was working on it, it was SAP channel and movie theaters. As I'm sure everyone has known, the movie theaters still aren't necessarily aware of their own equipment having audio descriptions. So I think one of the challenges that I had was going into it with not a sense of, "What is this now? Is it..." Like, trying to wrap my head around it? And thankfully, I think the exposure on those accidental discoveries of audio description when sighted people accidentally turn it on or even some blind people that had never heard of audio description before discover it, that there's some real opportunities there to help build awareness.

Alex Howard
When you watch entertainment, do you turn on the audio description for your own study, or do you usually watch without it? Because I'm sure if they're doing it not correctly or certain things, I'm sure it could get on your nerves pretty easily.

Roy Samuelson
Well, I'm sure it gets on your nerves, too, when there's a bad audio description performance or bad writing or a bad mix. I do my research. It's really important. But if I'm watching something and it's horrible, it takes me out. And so I have to turn it off. And there's an extra... Not have to. There are certain times where I'll just turn off the entire show just because it just hurts my ears. I use the example in the book about listening to an audiobook that just grates on your nerves, and you know within a few seconds, it's like, "Oh, we're not in good hands." You might stick it out for maybe half a minute, but even content in audiobooks that I'm really looking forward to listening to, if the audiobook performer or the narrator in that case is not bringing what they need to or it's taking me out, that's a hurdle. But as far as audio description goes, I do my research. I want to hear the voices. The ADNA, the Audio Description Network Alliance, is like an internet movie database for all roles in audio description. And so I like to know who's doing what and how they're doing and why is this person so great on this show? But when they're not performing up to snuff, what's different? And so there's some real interesting things that happen just in the research of listening to audio description.

Alex Howard
So even though you're sighted, when you're just watching things for pleasure, you usually have the audio description on?

Roy Samuelson
Yeah. And usually until it's hard to listen to, and I'll just turn the whole thing off.

Alex Howard
Okay.

Lee Pugsley
And on that note, being a sighted individual who is in the audio description field, how would you answer the question, "Why should other sighted people watch content with audio description?"

Roy Samuelson
I love that question. I think it's addressing the curb-cut effect, where here's this thing that's created for blind people, and there's an opportunity for sighted people to experience it, too. The stereotypical examples that have been going around for years are, what if you're cooking, or what if you're tired of looking at Zoom calls or computer screens all day? You can sit back and enjoy a TV show like a podcast. Sighted people who drive can use the commute to catch up on their favorite shows. But I think there's also a really good accessibility side for sighted people who want to know those details. I can't remember the name of the show, but I have a tough time remembering characters' names. And the audio description really helped reinforce, "Oh, this is so and so," or "this is so and so," or it gave me plot elements that I might have missed. The audio description can become this asset to the sighted person's experience, too.

Lee Pugsley
Yeah, I love that, and I fully agree with all of that. When I've watched movies with audio description with some of my sighted friends, they'll be like, "Oh, that's who that person is," or "I didn't catch that detail," and I'm glad that the audio description description pointed it out. And on top of that, I always tell people that are writers, "Even though an audio description script is going to be different than a screenplay, if you want to know how to write, how to paint pictures with words in the most direct, concise, yet somewhat poetic way, watch content with audio description because it shows you how to use the economy of words to your advantage to paint a very vivid picture because that's what audio description writers have to do."

Roy Samuelson
Really well put. That's great, Lee. I love how you said that. That's something that I think those AD writers, just from the necessity of what I call the hokey-pokey, where you got to step in and step out in between lines of dialog, there's never enough room. And so that economy of words with making sure that it's providing the experience as well. It's such a brilliant art form when AD writers are really on their game.

Lee Pugsley
Now, I know that you have been an audio description performer. Have you ever done much with the writing side of AD?

Roy Samuelson
Yes. I've produced more than a handful of audio description content for film and TV, and I've also written a little bit. And that was mainly to help with the writing of the book. There's a section on AD writing, and it's written for performers, for voice talent, but there's some spillover effects that I hope other people can read it, too. But the experience of writing has actually made my performance better, and it's made my writing better as well. So predominantly, I feel like now my focus is, I still love doing audio description performance, but I'm getting into the producing side of things. I'm not as much on the writing side. There are so many great and talented writers that are doing this work, and I'm proud of the work that I've done, but it's not the focus right now.

Alex Howard
So that was a great transition to lead into the book. How did you decide to write a book about this? I know there aren't very many books about audio description, and I think the beginning of your book really does a great job of putting into words what we've been trying to portray here about what audio description is and the importance of it. I think, in particular, there's a part of it where you talk about how audio description is the communal experience for blind people and moviegoing. Definitely, that's why we do our podcast. It's because we can talk about movies just like everyone else. So if you could talk a little bit about your book and what you decided to put in it and why you thought it was necessary to have a book written about it?

Roy Samuelson
I wanted to for a handful of reasons. I found as I started my outreach in audio description, there were a lot of themes that were coming up again and again and again. And I noticed that in my very limited experience, there were some obstacles that didn't need to be there. And I think I address a handful in the book. I want to keep this message positive, though, because the reason I wrote the book was to celebrate all the good work that is happening in audio description, to talk about the professionalism and what professionalism means in audio description. And I'm curious what your experience was in reading it. There is this discriminatory position that blind people are put in, where sighted people can get totally immersed into a story. But when audio description, if any weak link of the audio description is broken, whether that's the mix where you have to keep fiddling with the volume, whether that's a person who's reading the script, who's just phoning it and yawning and even snoring, or if the writing isn't, as Lee had said, if the economy of words isn't there, if the beauty of the language isn't supporting the story. And also just being able to turn it on, that any of these aspects can take a person out of the experience that I think films and TV, specifically on the entertainment side. Let me be really clear that the book is targeted for story-based video content. There is this missing element, and I think it's another form of discrimination where sighted people can just sit down, relax, and immerse themselves in all the emotions of a movie where some of our blind audiences are kind of taken out. The boxes are being checked. It does have audio description. It is accurately describing what's on video, but there's something missing. And I wanted to address that in the book and give it language and give it words, because this is what I've spent my whole life doing. I've spent a lot of time talking with people who have worked in audio description or audiences who have, frankly, been put in a really second-class position. So those were the overall approaches and being able to share some of my own experiences in a way that hopefully was enjoyable.

Lee Pugsley
I really like so much of the information that you had in your book, and I think it is such an insightful read for anyone, whether or not you're in the audio description field, whether or not you're in the blind community. But if you just want a book that you can learn something, and it's very well written and flows really well, I recommend reading this book. And the biggest thing that I think you really hit on the head is that idea of, "Audio description helps build a communal experience, and it bridges that gap between the blind viewer and the sight of viewer." I remember there was that story you were talking about with one of your friends who had lost his vision, and you guys were watching a show. And because that had audio description, he was able to get in on the jokes as well, and he was able to understand some of the comedy and the emotional moments. And that's because the audio description for that show existed. And from what I gather, it was also done really well. And I think that's the difference between audio description done really well and done poorly, is that when it's done poorly, you don't get that communal emotional unifying experience. But when it's done really well, it really bonds humans together from all different communities, and that's such a beautiful thing.

Roy Samuelson
Yeah, that's really well put. You've brought up the communal experience a few times in this call, and I think it's notable how important that is. Those connections. Connection in the sense of, imagine driving down a freeway and every third of a mile, there's this huge speed bump. And that's what happens when audio description sticks out. When audio description is just soaring, it doesn't get in the way. An audience can disappear into it and just experience the story for what it is and not have those questions of, "Wait, what happened?" Or, "I'm not sure how I'm supposed to be feeling right now. My friend next to me is crying and I'm, like, confused." Those kinds of, let's call them speed bumps, those things that slow things down, that directly affects the communal experience. And that's not just the toggle switch of turning on or off audio description. It's not like, "Oh, it didn't have audio description, so I don't know what happened." The audio description could be there. But what was keeping that experience from being communal? What was keeping that conversation about the film or TV show from happening as well as it could have been? And that's a symptom. That's not necessarily something that needs to be fixed in the conversation. I think it needs to be a little bit back further when it's part of production. So you really bring up a great point. I'm enjoying hearing about the... Especially even this podcast. It's like knowing what you two are doing with this Dark Room and how you're talking about experiences, this is part of the communal experience of audio description, this very podcast.

Alex Howard
Yeah. Thank you for saying that. I think a lot of what you're saying is definitely resonating with us. There have been a couple of movies lately where, I'm not going to say the titles, but there's been somewhere, it's a foreign movie, and they have the same one narrator doing the description and one doing all of the dialog. And so obviously, that gets a little confusing when there's six characters in the scene and you're like, "Wait, which one is talking right now?" And then there's some where in the musical aspects of things, especially if it's a foreign language, where they speak the lines instead of, as you say, performing them. That gets really hard, too, because we're not getting half of the experience that the sighted audience is getting. So, yeah, a lot of what you're talking about in your book and on this podcast is really important where everything has to be right. And I think especially with -- you've touched on the writing and the voicing and the mixing -- but I think a big part of it is the technical part of it all, too, of the device is working. Everything has to go right for a blind audience to enjoy the content.

Roy Samuelson
Yeah, and that's back to the weakest link. There's an appendix that talks about that where each of those things are so important. And so, yeah, if the audio description is immaculately written, the casting is perfect, the mix is just right, and it mixes with Dolby Atmos Surround, and then you get to the theater and the system isn't working, then that's a broken link. And it puts-- I don't mean to make this so high stakes, but what I'm impressed with is that as people become aware of audio description, all people, not just blind audiences, not just blind people who want to be audiences, not just sighted people, but the entire industry, it's starting to happen, and there is a cultural shift. I'm not sure if you've experienced this, but there's been a handful of conversations that I've had with people. It's like, I tell them that I ensure that blind people enjoy watching videos, and they immediately default to closed captioning and their deaf friend. That there's this assumption of disability being deaf people. I know there's blind and deaf people as well. But to specifically talk about blindness in this space, it's starting to happen. I think that is because of the conversation of audio description, that people are aware of it and they're starting to 'get it' in a way that they haven't before. And that's going to help all of those broken links to be more cohesive because there is going to be a habit. It's not going to be like, "Wait, what do you want?" It's going to be like, "Oh, yeah, I just met somebody yesterday. I know where that equipment is, and I made sure it was charged up," if you're at the theater, or the toggle switch is now going to be coming on YouTube at some point. So there's all sorts of things that are headed in the right direction. It does take time, and that's a frustration, but it's happening.

Lee Pugsley
Yeah. And I think you bring up a very important point, too, about the more that you get your book out there, I know that you have a podcast as well. We have our podcast. The more that we just continue the dialog about accessibility and what accessibility means to be done well, piques curiosity, it generates interest. And from that interest comes action, hopefully. I mean, that's the goal, I think, for all of us here. But even going to the movie theater, Alex and I go to the AMC theaters. He usually goes to the Burbank one. I go to the Glendale one. And we are most likely the only blind or visually impaired people that attend those theaters. And so over time, we have educated the employees on, "This is how you can best accommodate us, but this is also how best you can help us setting up the devices and what you can check for and what this device does," and just kind of helping the employees learn about what audio description is, what these devices actually do. There have even been times that certain theaters I've gone to where I'll kindly take the manager aside and I'll tell them, "Hey, I come to this theater often. If you think about it in your staff meetings, I would encourage you to just educate your whole staff on what these audio description devices are, how to program them, and just to make sure that everyone's on the same page so it's not a foreign thing to them."

Roy Samuelson
I love that, Lee. It's something that you should not have to do. But the fact that you are doing it, I'm sure you're seeing results. Those kinds of experiences, when a manager for a theater gets a conversation from you like that, it makes a difference. I think about the overall impact of audio description as a microcosm of accessibility. What I mean by that is that as more people understand the benefits of audio description, that it can also apply to other aspects of accessibility, where ordinarily people might not consider some accommodations, that it can really make a difference, or even asking. So there's a real thoughtfulness that I think is so exciting about talking about audio description, not simply for the benefit of audio description, but for the benefit of that theater manager saying, "Hey, while we're talking about this, I wonder what other accessibility needs that we might be able to happen," that it can spark conversations in ways that maybe might not have already happened just because the default is not thinking about accessibility sometimes.

Alex Howard
What are some of your favorite audio description tracks that you've heard?

Roy Samuelson
I can talk about my favorite things that happen in them. Because each of those elements, I remember during the ACB keynote speech a few years ago, I broke down the different aspects of audio description. If I could address that now, the writing is seamless. And I think, Lee, you touched on that so eloquently when you talked about the economy of words and being able to keep things clean. I think about the casting decisions. I love it when blind professionals who do this work are cast. That's always exciting because not only are they super talented, but they also know from the experience of being an audience member what's needed. I love when the casting is appropriate. I love when the direction is going well. And it happens so, so easily. There are sometimes where a voice talent is directed, and sometimes they're not. Regardless, there is a sense of, "Oh, we're in good hands." And there's a handful of voice talents that do audio description performance that I know if I'm hearing their voice, I'm probably going to be really good hands. There's the audio mix when you're not hearing this whoosh sound of a noise that gets in the way, or there's something that's being cut off, or you hear same cue twice in a row. The quality control, where there's aspects of the character. I can go on, and I don't mean to. It's just fascinating to know that when I'm in good hands, I can sit back and relax, and the audio description surfs along with the story in a way that just lights me up, and I'm able to laugh and cry and just be moved by the experience and by the story. And the audio description almost disappears.

Lee Pugsley
Absolutely. And you're right, that is the best type of audio description. And you put a lot of this stuff in your book, which I really appreciate that you bring a lot of attention to the nuance of audio description, realizing that so much work goes into producing an excellent audio description track. And within that work, there's a lot of creativity. And I think that sometimes the creative part of that gets minimized, but also those little nuanced details get minimized, too, about everything you just touched on, the sound production, the casting, the writing, the delivery, all of that stuff. And it's so nuanced, but one little detail that's not up to the standard it should be can make all the difference in the world. But I appreciate the fact that you bring attention to that here with what you just said, and also in your book. I also appreciate the fact that within your book, you're also very realistic about the challenges that audio description performers face. And some of them are, you know, out of their control. And I think that it's important for readers to understand that, too, that there are a lot of challenges, and some of them that may get overlooked as well. But they are there. And then you also pinpoint the areas of improvement and how things can be improved.

Roy Samuelson
Yeah. And it's great to see those improvements happening. People are making decisions. Decision makers are making decisions to reduce those problems. When I think about the actors that do audio description, there's sometimes where they're put in a position where they're told to do something, and they might know intuitively it's not necessarily the best choice for the audience, but it's still their job to do it. They can be put in a really challenging position. I've been pretty lucky in working with companies that have a very clear sense of what's best for the audio description track, and I can trust that that's going to happen. There's other companies that have some challenges, and they might work through them differently. There is a subjectivity here. There's a lot of different approaches, and I'm going to be the first to say there is no perfect audio description. It is subjective. But with that nuance, as far as the performance goes, it is a high wire act. It is making those decisions, usually on the spur of a moment, just because of the way the industry is working right now, where you have to make a decision and trust your gut and go with it. And I think that the voice talents that have practiced and done the work of bringing words to life, that that becomes a beautiful flow. You can tell when... I'd be curious about your experience, both of you. You know when you're in good hands, right? You probably know pretty early on. That's an assumption I'm making. I'm not sure...

Alex Howard
No, definitely. I think depending on the narrator, usually certain narrators work with certain companies. So if I hear a certain narrator, I'm like, "Okay, this one's going to be good." Or there'll be some indication where if they say, If they describe a sound that's being made, I'm like, "Oh, no. This is not going to be..." You know.

Roy Samuelson
Yeah. But that's easy to default to the voice that you're hearing because the voice is the one that's saying, for example, that you just mentioned. If a voice is saying in the audio description something that we can hear, it's really easy to say, "Why did that voice talent say that thing that we just heard when it most likely was the script?"

Alex Howard
Yeah. Which I think, me and Lee know who to blame.

Roy Samuelson
[laughing]

Alex Howard
But I guess the general public, probably, yeah, they would go to the voice actor first. But yeah. Like the one I was talking about earlier, the foreign musical, I know the writing was great, but it was some of the other decisions that were made in the voice acting or the voice performing or the mixing, that's where it fell off. So it's like, yeah, I think, like we've been saying, that there are certain parts that can do that. For people who haven't read your book, though, I don't know if you are allowed to say, but can you name any specific challenges you've had over your career that you've had to work around?

Roy Samuelson
Yeah, I think that's a great question. I'm glad you asked it. I think there is this challenge of staying in my role. I'm clearly passionate about audio description, and I think there's a lot of things that are still happening in some really great directions. But when I'm hired to do a project, I'm hired to do a project. And my job as a professional voice actor is to do what I'm told. And there is a real challenge in, when asked to do something that, you know, is it my opinion that this word is pronounced incorrectly and you're telling me to pronounce it incorrectly? There's been times where I've been directed to pronounce something incorrectly, and in the mix, when I have to go back and re-record something, they say, "Why did you pronounce this wrong?" That's not an opportunity for me to say, "Well, you told me to." That's an opportunity for me to say, "Thank you," and make the correction, because it doesn't matter who said what. The problem is it needs to be corrected. There's a real sense of, first of all, graciousness and gratitude to even be doing this work, to be able to have the opportunity to work in audio description is an honor. There's also a responsibility for the professionalism of what I call soft skills, being able to take feedback and adjust accordingly.

Roy Samuelson
One of the challenges with reading 300 cues in a 60-minute TV show is that it's most likely that at some point there's going to be a little brain freeze where the word is not going to come out the way that I intended it, and I'm going to have to do it again. The first time that I did audio description, I really beat myself up, and I said, "Oh, I should have known better. I should have done it better." And there was this frustration and this self judgment and blame when actually it's just doing the job and picking it up and doing it better. Take a breath, maybe take two breaths if needed, and know that mistakes happen. And the advantage of working in audio description is that you pick up and you keep going. If people come with a sense of "Everything has to be perfect all the time," that can really derail the performance, and it can actually waste time. So one of the things that I've found when I'm coaching voice actors is that there is this sense of play that happens where they can understand, "Oh, I'm really just playing around. There's no stakes. I'm not getting hired. I'm not getting fired. There's nobody I need to impress." And it's like going to the gym. It's like going to work out with some dumbbells and someone notices, "Hey, it looks like your form is really great. Keep it up. You're doing great." Or someone else might say, "Hey, I noticed that your elbow is kind of switching out. Maybe you could try something else." That that kind of supportive environment, especially in the workouts, can really help people play and explore and discover things that they might not have ever discovered before. So as I continue to grow, I still take coaching from voice actors. I'm sorry, from voice coaches. I still make sure that I'm at the top of my game because when these opportunities come out, I need to be able to do the best I can in the fastest time possible, and hopefully not sound rushed either.

Alex Howard
I know that in your book, you talk about doing research before taking on a project. I know you might not be able to talk about specifics, but something like The Bear, which is obviously very fast-paced and very dialogue-heavy, and then going to something like The Last of Us. Yeah, The Last of Us is much slower at times. When you first got hired for The Bear, when you first got hired for The Last of Us, I guess, especially when it comes to The Bear, that was a rather new creator and new project. How do you prepare for something like? And then obviously, once you get started with The Bear and once you know what that's like after season one and you keep going, you have to obviously match your narration of what you've already been doing to keep it symmetrical, but you also have to subtly adjust if you are making mistakes, if that makes any sense.

Roy Samuelson
Sure does. And that's the high wire act. I think that's the balance that the voice actors who are doing the best they can can recognize. Nuance keeps coming up in the book, and we've talked about it a bunch in this conversation. The understanding what we need to do. We take context clues. We listen to music. I don't remember the name of the show. It wasn't any shows that you've mentioned before. But the overall gist of the show was it was relatively high stakes with occasional comedy, and there was a scene that had a lot of activity happening. The music that was playing was happy, and it was joyous. It almost sounded like a sitcom opening for some three camera, live in front of a studio audience, half hour sitcom. But the overall show had a much more serious high stakes vibe. And so if I didn't have that music, I would have read the scene with a much more... intensity that would have taken people out when they heard the music. And so music has been an incredible influence, listening to what characters are saying before and after. If it's "She slaps him" because we need to know who's slapping who. We hear the slap, but it's like, "Who's slapping who?" It could be playful. It could be an invitation. It could be horrible. It could be an accident. Each of those contexts can be brought to life in that "She slaps him" in a way that can give our audience a clue, "Oh, this slap is playful, or this slap is mean." I think it's a lot more nuanced than the overall big picture of the show. I do have a sense of, you know, in the examples that you've shared, that each of those shows has a flavor to it. And so that's an overarching guide. But within that overarching guide, there are thousands of decisions that are being made. Is this phrase going to be brought with an intensity? Is this phrase just going to explain something that's happening on screen and we need to move on to the next thing? In shows where there is a very short amount of time, am I able to speak as quickly as possible and still be understood? So I need to increase my... On the technical side, I need to be able to speak a little bit faster, and I also need to be able to enunciate so people understand what I'm saying. Each of these decisions are all made, and it's like, I'm really excited to have you ask the question. I feel like I've gone on for five minutes, Alex. [laughing]

Lee Pugsley
It's all really great stuff, though. And I think that it's interesting because when you talk about all of this, I relate it to my experience as an actor. And obviously, doing audio description is its own thing, so I don't want to say it's the same thing, but there's definitely principles in both that are applicable. For me, it's about, like, "What is the intention of what I'm saying or what I'm doing?" Then also looking at it as, when I'm on stage or screen, it's like, "This isn't about me. This is about how do I serve the needs of the other people that are in my scene? How do I meet their needs? What can I give them that's going to enhance their world?" That's always the way that I approach it, and I think in a similar way as an audio description performer, I think that there's a lot of those questions that have to be asked, too. It's like, "How do I serve the story? What's the best way to serve the story?" Even though there's option A, option B, option C, option D, and down the list. But what's the best option to serve the story? And that's, I guess, my approach as a performer myself, and that seems pretty transferable to being an audio description performer as well.

Roy Samuelson
Absolutely. And it's a different kind of... You know, we go back to that nuance, where the work that I do on camera is different than the work I do in audio description. But I'm still bringing that intent. And there's thousands of approaches. As you know, Lee, so many people have different ways to approach acting. I have enjoyed intent, and I bring it up a lot in the book to be able to talk about what am I doing to the audience? And I feel like it's more than just reading words well or being conversational. I can always tell I'm not in good hands when an audio description performer falls in love with their own voice. You can hear it. It's really uncomfortable, and it's kind of condescending. When the audio description performer is serving the story, as you said, it is similar to acting because the story is being served. And if that is the focus, then we're going to know that we're in good hands. And obviously, there's a ton of differences when it comes to, you know, we don't have to memorize lines or getting into costume or figure out our blocking. And it's usually not done in conjunction with other people. So there's nobody to play off of. But there are things that can be brought from acting experience, at least from my acting experience, that brings this audio description to life.

Lee Pugsley
Definitely. And it's interesting, I was talking to Alex a few days ago about the idea of being an on-camera performer and being a voice performer, and how, to me, it seems like being a voice performer oftentimes can be, I don't want to say more challenging, but it definitely presents its own unique challenges. Because when you're on screen or on stage, you have activity, you have things to do, you have people to play off of, like you were saying before. But when you record a voiceover session or you're doing a voiceover audition, you notice every little nuanced thing. It's like, "Oh, I paused too soon here," or "I didn't pause long enough there," or "I'm breathing here," or "I'm not breathing there." Just, I don't know, you can go crazy just trying to pick up on all of those nuances. I'm just like, "I'm losing my mind! What do I do?"

Roy Samuelson
I love that you said that. That microphone picks up everything. Voiceover work, I think, is one of the more intimate kinds of work in performance. And it's not to say it's better or worse. It's just a different kind of intimacy. I think about, you know, I'm able to walk, but when I learned how to walk, I was stumbling. And I was thinking, I don't think about how I walk. I don't think about bending my knees and putting weight on the other foot and then stepping forward and then putting weight on my heel. Those intimate technical details don't happen. It's osmosis. I've been doing it, so I understand, "Oh, I need to walk here." But the idea of not thinking about doing something because I've learned how to do it, it does become a part of the system. So yeah, when I read a script with audio description, I'm looking for those places where I can take a breath for a long paragraph where I have to be brisk. I'm looking for those lines where there's a surprise reveal, where I'm assuming there might be a surprise reveal. I'm looking for any cues just from working in other audio description tracks. What are the things that I need to be looking for? And so that when I come to them, I'm able to bring those to life in a way that doesn't get in the way of tripping myself up.

Alex Howard
Do they ever speed you up in post, or is it mostly you have to talk faster and you have to talk slower?

Roy Samuelson
I keep my cues within the realm that I need to. There's been occasions where that's been impossible, and I'm relatively fast. So in those cases, I usually say, "Hey, there's not enough room. Do you want me to go over or do you want to cut something?" And that's my job as a voice actor to let them know. I do hear voice actors that are sped up, and I've heard commercials, too, where it's like the legalese where they speed up somebody on the radio or someone saying a side effects may include or whatever. What I think is really interesting is there's a way to deliver this, especially in audio description, so that it doesn't sound fast. And that's something that I like to play with if someone in my workshop is interested in discovering that. It's neat to see how that can be done. And there's all sorts of little shortcuts that are on the technical side. I'm contradicting what I just said earlier about not focusing on the steps with the technology of how to walk. But in this example, there are certain things that you can play with.

Lee Pugsley
I always say, "You have to first of all, like, know the rules, and then you can learn the shortcuts after that," if there are shortcuts available, because obviously not everything has no shortcuts. But going back and tying things together now with your book, what do you hope that readers or listeners will take away from it?

Roy Samuelson
Oh, wow. Great question. I want to give people a little behind the scenes, but it's also not just an industry analysis. I do share some of my personal journey as a voice actor who fell in love with audio description. As you both know, there's real conversations with blind audience members, with 80 writers, with blind performers, and industry professionals who help reinforce the story that's being told. I feel like one of the biggest takeaways is that this business of audio description sometimes prioritizes, "how cheap can we make it?" And I've found that in our experience, and correct me if I'm wrong, but quality does make an impact and can make some really positive or uncomfortable experiences for audiences. And some of the things that can be addressed that removes the negative or uncomfortable experiences for audio description audiences, and maybe how that can help rethink accessibility, not as a burden, but as an opportunity. I think about all the consulting and conversations I've had with organizations and leaders who are choosing to opt into audio description, and how they have reframed it as this obligation of, "Oh, we have to do it," and really saying, "Hey, look, you're missing a market share." There's however many blind and low vision Americans, and they have friends, and they are incredibly loyal when they're treated with the respect that they deserve. Why not engage? Why not find that inclusivity in a way that brings an emotionally rich experience for all audiences. To answer your question more efficiently, audio description is more than a box to check, and here's some ways that a voice actor can bring their own skills to life in audio description. And the impact that this story, this very microcosm of a voice actor in audio description, can have for accessibility in the greater picture beyond just audio description.

Lee Pugsley
Well said. And, yeah, once again, I really enjoyed reading your book, and I would encourage everyone out there to go check out this book. I think that you'll find it very insightful, and it's just a really easy read and especially if you listen to the audiobook, hearing your voice narrate it too, Roy, is definitely a delight, too.

Roy Samuelson
Oh, thanks, Lee.

Alex Howard
Yeah, definitely. Before we let you go, Roy, do you have any advice for people who would like to get into audio description? I mean, first, I guess for sighted people, and then specifically any advice for legally blind people.

Roy Samuelson
That's great. I love the question. Regardless of sighted or legally blind or blind or otherwise, it's turning on audio description and listening to it and connecting with community. I know social media can be a little bit of a challenge for people right now. If there are opportunities to connect on social media with people who are working in audio description, I think it's a great experience to learn what's really involved. There's all sorts of resources out there. I like to talk about AD Training Retreats. That's ADTrainingRetreats.com. Coleen Connor is running that, and she's taught some of the best audio description writers that are working regularly today. I think there's some great opportunities there. And I know there's other places, too, that offer training for audio description. The ADP.ACP.org. I'll repeat that, Audio Description Project, ADP.ACB.org. That's the American Council of the Blind. ACP.ACP.org. I think I got that acronym right. They're in the midst of updating their website, I believe, but there's a treasure trove of information there. I think your podcast is listed, too, under resources.

Alex Howard
Yeah, we usually link it in our description as well.

Roy Samuelson
Oh, nice. Yeah. So it's like, those are some things just out the gate. I feel like if people who are focused on voice acting in audio description, I always like to refer to the training that people can get to learn about what aspect of voiceover they want to get into. My book is one of many opportunities to learn about specific kinds of voiceover. I think the biggest thing is to come with an open mind and a sense of discovery and exploration. I've found that when there's a specific agenda of what to do and when to do it and how much to get paid and a certain deadline, that can kind of get in the way. That there's certain ways to approach... And that's with any career. That's with any endeavor. To look for a way to enjoy the play of it and find what resonates and then explore that a little bit more. It's the same as I might have a sense of... Oh, can I say one example? Because I love this.

Alex Howard
Oh, yeah.

Roy Samuelson
Somebody told me this, and I wish I remember the source, that when a pilot is flying across the country, let's say from New York to Los Angeles, she is off course 99% of the time because of wind, because of things that might be coming in the way, that there's constant course correction, and there's no way to predict it until it happens. The idea is that if someone is flying from New York to LA-- I just switched it on you. [laughs] If they go from New York to LA, that if they set their course exactly the way they need to be and are very stuck in it, then all those other aspects that get in the way, if the wind blows, they could end up going to San Francisco instead. That there's got to be this sense of adjustment and learning. And I myself only know as much as what I know now. And if I'm open to learning more from others, then I'm going to be able to grow myself. And so there's a real sense of mentorship and coaching that I still incredibly value for myself. And I always encourage other people to find those coaches that resonate with.

Lee Pugsley
I love that philosophy. And in a similar vein, one of my philosophies is, "You only know what you know until you know it or until you know more." And I think with that in mind, it's like that idea, like you were saying, of hitting on of like, be "Being open to continually learning." And if you don't know something right away, you can also have grace for yourself, as long as you have that openness and that sense of discovery to learn more. It's okay if you don't know it all right now. It's okay if it's not perfect right now because you're going to grow.

Roy Samuelson
Oh, I love that. You only know what you know until you know more.

Lee Pugsley
Well, Roy, this has been such a pleasure having you on. And thank you again so much for taking the time to stop by. And then one last thing, we will put a link to where people can find your book down below in our description. But if you want to plug the places that your book is available and any other ways that people can reach you if they so desire to?

Alex Howard
Yeah, and your podcast, too.

Roy Samuelson
Oh, thank you. So let's start with the book. It's RoySamuelson.com/book. That's RoySamuelson.com/book. The website is being updated, but there's some content there, and it also links to the audiobook, the printed book, and the digital version. And I believe the book is on Bard. By the time this podcast comes out, it should be on Bard for blind individuals who use that service. I think that RoySamuelson.com/book can lead to other aspects of how to reach me. I'm on LinkedIn, and that's pretty much... There's some other places, but I'm kind of hokey-pokey'ing. I step in, step out a lot. But RoySamuelson.com/book is the best place.

Alex Howard
What's your podcast called?

Roy Samuelson
My podcast is The ADNA Presents. That's the Audio Description Network Alliance. It's at TheADNA.org. That's T-H-E-A-D-N-A dot org. The podcast is there. It's also that treasure trove of professional voice talents, professional writers, audio engineers, directors, quality control. Anyone who's involved in audio description for film and TV, it's an IMDb internet movie database type of thing for audio description. It's also the podcast, and I love to interview people. Alex, you were featured on it many years ago.

Alex Howard
Yes.

Roy Samuelson
It's been fun to be able to talk all kinds of people who work in audio description and do a deep dive into their experience and behind the scenes.

Lee Pugsley
Yeah, it's really educational and insightful. So for any listeners out there that want to dive deeper into some of those things that go into making audio description, I highly recommend this podcast.

Roy Samuelson
Thanks. We got over 200 episodes, 250, so it's going pretty well.

Alex Howard
Wow, that's awesome. Yeah. And how often do you guys put out episodes?

Roy Samuelson
It used to be every other week. With the book coming out, I've taken a very long hiatus, but it's still, I believe, evergreen. I think there's a lot of content there that still holds up. Even listening to some of the older ones that were recorded during the pandemic, I still see some things that remain the same. And there's obviously a lot of things that have changed. We do have about five or six more episodes that are going to be coming out soon. I'm very excited for that. But yeah, the book right now has been the biggest focus.

Lee Pugsley
Well, congratulations on getting the book out there and just for making it available for all of us to have as a resource and for others to learn from and hopefully be inspired by as well.

Roy Samuelson
Thanks so much, Lee. I love it.

Alex Howard
Thank you so much for being on.

Roy Samuelson
Thank you so much, Alex. It's an honor to be on the Dark Room. I've been waiting for this moment. It's good to be here.

Alex Howard
[chuckles]

Lee Pugsley
For all your listeners out there, we thank you so much for listening as well. If you have any questions for me or Alex or even any questions about what Roy has talked about today, feel free to reach out to us at DarkRoomFilmCast@gmail.com. Once again, that's DarkRoomFilmCast@gmail.com. You can also follow us on Instagram @DarkRoomFilmCast and YouTube by searching The Dark Room or @DarkRoomFilmCast.

Alex Howard
And we'd like to thank Matt Lauterbach and All SensesGo for helping make transcripts of this podcast possible and ensuring accessibility for all audiences.

Lee Pugsley
And we'd also like to thank BlindCAN for being the sponsor for our editors for this podcast as well. So thank you guys once again for listening, and we will see you back here next time on The Dark Room.

Alex Howard
Take care, guys.