Ep. 41: Close Up With JC O’Connell, Live Audio Describer For The Performing Arts

Alex and Lee chat with JC O’Connell, who performs live audio description for many performing arts events in the Los Angeles/Orange County area. In our conversation, JC discusses her process and preparing for the unexpected. 

If you live in the LA/OC area and would like to get in touch with JC, please e-mail her at jcoconnell2020@gmail.com

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Transcript

Lee Pugsley
What's up, everyone? Welcome back to another episode of The Dark Room, where two blind cinephiles illuminate the sighted. I'm Lee Pugsley.

Alex Howard
I'm Alex Howard.

Lee Pugsley
And this is a podcast hosted by two legally blind guys for film lovers of all abilities.

Alex Howard
And today we have a very special guest. I'm going to let Lee introduce her. But I'm very excited, especially for Lee for this episode, because we always say I'm the horror guy, and Lee is the musical guy. So today we get to do something very up Lee's alley. So I'll let Lee introduce our special guest.

Lee Pugsley
Thank you so much, Alex. And yeah, as Alex mentioned, I am a very big musical guy, just a big theater guy in general. I love live performance. Which is why I am super excited to introduce our special guest. Today, we have JC O'Connell with us. She is a live audio describer who does theatrical performances, operas, and a lot of other live events. So we're-- so I'm really excited to talk with her. And to give you a little bit of background on JC, she is an award-winning actress. She's an opera singer. She's had a very illustrious career that has transitioned into now being a live audio describer. We're really excited to talk about her journey and just different aspects of live audio description. I know we spend a lot of time talking about audio description and film, but this is the first time that we've had the opportunity to touch on audio description for theatrical performances and live events in a deep dive. So, JC, welcome to our podcast. So great to have you. 

JC O'Connell
Oh, my gosh. I'm so happy to be here. I've been bugging you for the longest time. [indistinct] "Get me in there! I want to be on your podcast. Let me in!" So I am so jazzed to be here with you and Alex. This is really exciting. And you know I still want to be in one of your films. Okay, I won't mention it again. [all laugh]

Lee Pugsley
Yeah. Me and JC, we run into each other multiple times at various theatrical productions because I make the rounds here in the Los Angeles theater scene, and JC does as well. So, JC, so let's go ahead and just jump right in. First, I want to ask you, what was your first experience ever with audio description, and what was your journey in arriving at being a live audio describer?

JC O'Connell
Oh, I'm so glad you asked me that question. Thank you, thank you, thank you. I was in a dubbing salon. I was voicing the lead character in Der Clown, which was a police procedural in Germany, and I was voicing the detective. So I went to take a break and I saw this posting in the lunchroom: "Would you like to read newspapers for people who are visually impaired or dyslexic?" So that started my journey, actually, with the blind community, was working with the Los Angeles Radio Reading Service for the Blind and Print Impaired. And that began in 1997. And it was so much fun. I would go in in the morning, we would edit the newspapers and do local stories. There were two of us that would alternate reading, and then a technician who would record us and read the comics and TV schedule. Well, fast forward to 1999, there were auditions through the LA radio reading service for people to become describers, audio describers of live theater. And I had a background not only on stage, but voiceover, all the disciplines for acting. So I auditioned, and I then went into training with Deborah Lewis. And my first show was Death of a Salesman at the Ahmanson Theater with Elizabeth Franz, played the wife. Brian Dennehy was the salesman. Anyway, it was so awesome, but it's the talkiest show, so it was very hard to fit in description without stepping on dialog. But it was absolutely one of my favorite experiences. And when we were describing, something went wrong with the technical aspects of the show. We had to stop the show and go back to square one, start again. The lights came up. So you had to describe all of that, which was a great learning experience, too. It's live theater. Anything can happen.

Lee Pugsley
Yeah. And that's what I love about live theater, is that anything can happen. I think that's what makes it exciting for me as an audience member, me as a performer, or the times I've done theatrical directing or stage management. It really keeps you on your toes, and we're definitely going to go ahead and get a little deeper into a lot of those points you just mentioned. Would you be able to walk us through your process and how you prepare for describing a live event? I know it's different than film because film, you have more time to do it. You have a final cut of something that you're able to work off of.

Alex Howard
To piggyback off of what Lee was saying, I know for JC, she has to know where the dialog starts and ends because there's no editing in live theater, obviously. So she has to know the show really well. So I'm very curious to see how she prepares for the shows.

JC O'Connell
Thank you so much for that question, and it's a great question. I'm going to talk about the experience. First of all, I go to preview the show, and this is where I look at the set, the costumes, the people, the characters, how tall are they, what's their body type? I can always go back to the program and say, "Oh, this one has a square face or oval face, wide set eyes," so you get a better picture of who the actual person is. Then we get into the costuming, And we describe costume elements that may become really important during the show itself. So I take notes on the set, the people, the costumes. I then study the script after I've seen the show, because when I'm watching it, I'm looking for those moments where it catches the audience. For instance, I just described Alvin Ailey Dance program. And so I looked for the times that the audience really responded to a particular dance move. And I took note of that because I have to be ready to describe that whole setting with the dancers before the audience explodes into applause.

When I study the script, I'll mark it for myself and say, "Oh, this is important. I have to remember that he hands her a handkerchief" or in Hamilton, "This is where she burns the letters." So you want to be sure that you're talking about the letters that she received and how they're now going up in smoke. So the process is really getting to know the show as much as possible. Sometimes I've had to preview a show twice so that I've caught all the elements that I want to describe. And to just be attentive, for instance, in Death of a Salesman, it's Arthur Miller. It's wall to wall dialog. But you have to be able to fit in certain key elements where he puts the arm around his one son, Biff, but doesn't do that for his other son because it speaks to the relationship of father and son. Those are the things I look for. Not that I'm going to describe every time somebody gets up or paces, unless it's for a purpose, unless that move means something in the context of the play or the musical.

Alex Howard
So do you get to go to the rehearsals and see them, or is it more helpful for you to go to a show with a live audience to learn how to describe it so you get to see how they react?

JC O'Connell
We're actually not allowed to anything except a live performance, mainly because the shows that come in, say at the Pantages, are here, maybe a week. And so we are invited to go opening night. And then if I want to see it again before I describe it, and typically, I'll just use the Pantages as an example, I don't describe again until the day before the show closes, which in a long run, like Hamilton, is a long time to wait to do the show again. In other instances, it's just a week. So I think I can retain that for three or four days. I'm very lucky that the relationship with Audio Description Los Angeles allows us to work with management and say, "I really need to see this show again. I'm not sure of certain things. I want to make sure I give a good description." Lehman Trilogy was like that. That was a challenging show. It was just three actors, but they acted out 40, 50 characters. And that was one that I really wanted to practice before I had an audience member for that.

Opera is a little different. When I started describing opera, they know me there. I've been a supernumerary with them for 37 years. It was a natural fit that I start describing for them. And in that instance, I am welcome to go to as many rehearsals as I have time to attend, piano dress, orchestra dress. So that's another one where because of my badge and my relationship with them, I'm welcome to go in there anytime if I want to see the costumes again or I've missed something about a particular super title that I need to study. And that is a really great experience for me to have that carte blanche with the venue.

Lee Pugsley
Yeah, that definitely makes sense. And it is so interesting because every production, whether it's a dance show, a theatrical production, an opera, they all have different demands of what the most important elements of description are. I am curious to know, though, if you have a show that's coming through, like the Pantages or Ahmanson Theater, which for those listeners out there who don't live in LA, those are the big theater houses that house all of the Broadway touring shows. But if you get, let's say, like Les Misérables or Hamilton or something, or it's a newer show, but there's clips available or pictures available of the original Broadway production online, do you try to get a head start on that show by watching some of those things to get an idea of this is what the set is going to look like, these are what the costumes are going to be, and it helps you potentially prep a little more in advance?

JC O'Connell
Absolutely. That was exactly how it was with Hamilton before it came to town. I looked for as many YouTube videos I could find of the different songs so that I could begin familiarizing myself with the breaks in the song, the importance, especially that the lyrics go by so quickly. That's one show you really don't want to be talking over the lyrics, but there are times you have to sneak in something important. But absolutely, the YouTube help. And whenever I can see something, there are archival copies that theater sometimes share with us, not all the time. For instance, I did the Cat Kid Comic Book Musical at Kirk Douglas. And luckily, that particular company has the videos that they could share with us ahead of time before I went to preview it. And it's a big, big help. Really is a big help. Yes.

Lee Pugsley
I can only imagine. And you touched on this a little bit already, but I'm curious to know a little bit more if you have any relationship or collaboration with the production team at all when you're preparing for live audio description. I mean, obviously, I know that you would talk with the house manager. But is there any other production team member that you collaborate with?

JC O'Connell
Not really. My only exception, again, is LA Opera, because with a history of being a supernumerary for 37 years there, I know the makeup people, I know the wardrobe people, I know the stage managers. And we have a very good rapport so that if I want to go and look at a costume before I actually describe it, I will go and look in -- with their permission, of course -- go into the dressing room and see the actual fabric of a costume. I'm not given that access at any other venue, not at all. And a lot of that is kind of safety. Ever since COVID, it has become really hard to get in touch with any of the people on the production team, and they're scared to death someone is going to come in and infect them, and I don't blame them. You don't know who you're talking to or what somebody might be carrying, and that will put their show out of commission. You could even just have a cold and not know it. But if you infect someone, even on the production team, you're in danger of really shutting the show down. So the access backstage is not what it it used to be.

And it was never really something where we could go and talk to the director or even the cast. It just isn't that kind of thing. A lot of people don't even know we exist or that we're out there. And I'm really trying to change that wherever I go. For instance, at ABT, after I was there to preview the... Excuse me, Alvin Ailey. When I went there the Friday night before I described, I was waiting for the garage to clear out. So I was hanging out in the green room, which is allowed because I have a badge to be there down at Music Center, and the dancers were there. And so I a chance to chat with them and tell them, "Hey, I'm going to audio describe you tomorrow for a blind patron." And they were like, "What? How do you do that?" And I would explain to them, "We use layman's terms. I don't say pirouette or pas de deux or glissant or jeté. I say somebody leaps, they jump, they spin, they lie on the ground, they kneel." And it was great to be able to share that with some of the dancers. There were four of them there in the green room with me. But if I can tell anybody about audio description, I'm happy to educate as I go.

Lee Pugsley
Yeah, I love that. And I think that's initially why me and Alex started this podcast, is just to educate people on what audio description is, where accessibility is thriving, where there's areas for growth, and just realizing that a lot of people, even some people within the blind and low vision community, are not fully aware of these different aspects. And so it's really a continuing process of keeping those dialogs open, continuing to spur on those conversations to allow everyone room to grow and to learn.

JC O'Connell
I couldn't agree more. It's just so important. Just as a comparison, there's the Deaf community, and they have Deaf culture, and people are really aware of signers and what's afforded the Deaf community. I have friends now, I will say, "Oh, I'm doing an audio description for blind patrons tomorrow of this show." And they say, "Wow, how long did it take you to learn how to sign?" I said, "Well, I'm an audio describer. I'm not signing for a Deaf audience. My people can't see me, my patrons." So even though people hear what I say, they're not really hearing. They can't connect because they don't know what the concept is. They don't know what audio description is.

Lee Pugsley
Yeah, that definitely makes sense. Now, in all of your experience, what is the most challenging show or live performance that you've ever had to audio describe? Or maybe there's a few of them that stick out to you for different reasons.

JC O'Connell
I would say Alvin Ailey, which was last Saturday for a blind patron who had never seen or attended a ballet before. We were doing this together. I have done Matthew Bourne down at the Ahmanson, but that's very different than an Alvin Ailey program. That was a real challenge to me. And if I could have seen it twice more, I think, before I described, I would have been a lot more secure in how I describe things. As a matter of fact, I met my patron before the show, and I said, There's this motion where they do a very fast movement with their hands, palm to palm, but not touching." And I can't say what it represents. It represents something to me. It could represent something different to you. I can't interpret. But we went over that, and I had her hold my hands so that she would know what I was talking about. And between the two of us, we established that I would say fast motion with hands so that she would know when that happened on stage. And I tried also to explain, ahead of time, so much of the style of Alvin Ailey is flex. Flexing the palm of the hand, flexing the foot, palm out front, sole of the foot out front, very staccato movement sometimes with the arms, because it is quite different than a Matthew Bourne piece or an ABT, American Ballet Theater.

So it was good to have a chat before the show, I think, to set up in her mind what was happening when I would give very brief descriptions of arms out or arms up, that that was going to happen a lot throughout the piece. And as a matter of fact, she gave me a very good, very positive critique afterwards. She said she enjoyed it, but that I talk too much because there were lyrics to some of the songs. And unfortunately, I fell into audio description 101, where you feel like if you're not talking all the time, you're not doing your job. So over the years, of course, we've learned that less is more. And because Alvin Ailey was such a new piece to me, I wasn't really comfortable. I didn't think I was giving her enough if I did less, but I learned a lot from that. I'm doing Ainadamr next at the LA Opera, which has a lot of flamenco dance in it, and she'll be attending. So I said, "When you come to Ainadamr, you're going to see how I take direction from you." So we're looking forward to that.

Lee Pugsley
Yeah, that's so interesting. And it also just makes me think about people that are doing live audio description for performing arts that come from a performing background. It's probably so helpful because it probably helps you understand, like you were saying, the different types of dance styles that there are. And I'll specifically go into my lane, which is musical theater. There's a difference between how you're going to describe Bob Fosse choreography versus Jerome Robbin's choreography versus like, Twyla Tharp choreography. All of those are very specific and very different, and all of those are styles that exist within the musical theater genre, too.

JC O'Connell
Absolutely. As a matter of fact, Matthew Bourne choreographed the new Mary Poppins. And so his elements of style are definitely Mary Poppins, yes.

Alex Howard
So when I saw Harry Potter recently, they were describing the costumes during the intermission. Is that something normal to do? Because I know there's not a lot of time during the actual live show to describe what people are wearing. So I thought that was a smart idea to do it during the intermission.

JC O'Connell
We will do that. We will give notes at the intermission for the act 2 sets and the act 2 costumes, because it's a lot to do all of that in the 10 or 15 minutes before the show to cover every costume in act 1, 2, 3, 4. And again, we have to keep in mind, the costumes are important, but there are key costumes, say, that are more important than just-- Everyone, say, in Les Mis, is wearing muted earth-tone rags, as opposed to Javert, who's wearing a military style uniform. There are differentiations there. And then when Jean Valjean is no longer on the streets and he's a businessman, there's a very definite wardrobe that has to be described once he is now with money. He's now a gentleman, and you want to make sure you get that across. So, yes, that is very typical for us to do those added descriptions at intermission. Absolutely.

Lee Pugsley
And going off of the added descriptions, for those listeners out there that may not know, oftentimes, live audio describers will also be describing things a half hour before the show. I know, like when I go to Pasadena Playhouse and there's description, you guys are reading the bios and the program and describing the stage and describing as many of the visual elements as possible before the show as well.

JC O'Connell
Absolutely. There was someone new to audio description. I wasn't doing the show. I think it was Once Upon a Mattress. And our describers, Deborah and Joanne, were doing the pre-show notes. "This is what the set looks like. This is what the people look like. This is what they're wearing. This is what they're going to wear later." And the person turned it off because it's like, there's just too much talking. They didn't know that was just to set it up. That once we start describing, we're really only going to describe between the songs or between the dialog and say important things that are going on. So it's a good thing to know that once the show starts, you're not going to hear us talk nonstop. We are only going to talk about important key elements that are visual, that mainly are moving the show, the plot along.

Alex Howard
And that's good to know. I didn't even know that they were describing before the show started, too.

JC O'Connell
Absolutely. And we have seen-- if you're relying on access, you may get there two minutes before curtain, unfortunately, or you may want to visit with your friends beforehand. And it's kind of all over the place, whether people love those pre-show notes or don't. We do them for the benefit of people who want to know ahead of time. "This is the set. These are the costumes. These are the people." But you know, guys, when you listen to a TV show or you go to the movies, you don't get any pre-show notes. You're mainly just getting the description of the action in the film or the TV show.

Lee Pugsley
Exactly. Yeah. And then another thing related to things that you have mentioned previously just a little bit ago is the idea that in live performance, anything can happen. You have to prepare for the unexpected. I know you had talked about, I believe it was Death of a Salesman just a minute ago and how there were technical issues. Are there any other moments that you can recall where you had to just make a decision on the fly because something unexpected happened? And generally speaking, how do you prepare for the unexpected in live performance?

JC O'Connell
I would say that's where my acting background has really helped me. I can't speak to other describers. I do have a background in stage work, specifically, and improv. You learn to think on your feet. I am a distinguished toast master, and that taught me many skills, improv as well as prepared speech. There was only one other time I can think of, it was The Addams Family. And the person who is really losing their mind is the person who does the captioning because there was one actor who loves to ad lib. So for me, that's not so much a problem because it was verbal. I haven't seen ad libbed action, per se, because you're affecting other performers on stage. That would not be nice. But sometimes you can ad lib dialog and you're in control, but the captioner had to capture it right away.

Lee Pugsley
Yeah, that all makes sense. And yeah, having a background in improv, I always tell people that whether or not you're a performer or not, improv is just so helpful for many reasons. It just teaches you how to be a good listener, how to think quickly on your feet, and just make confident decisions. So I always tell everyone, take an improv class, even if it's just for a month, do it, and it'll be helpful.

JC O'Connell
Improv classes are fabulous. I do also also recommend the Toastmasters International because, first of all, you go anywhere in the world, you can find a club. You will have a friend anywhere in the world if you look up the Toastmasters International Club. Everybody's about speaking and leadership. There's always a segment at the end called Table Topics. You don't know what you're going to speak on. The Toastmasters call somebody up and will give you a question you're not expecting. You have to talk one to two minutes about that question. So it's a kind of improv in that way, Lee. It's also a very, how do you say, cost-effective way to improve speaking skills and leadership and listening skills. We would have to mark down whenever we heard someone say, "Um," "uh," "you know," "so," "but," because those are crutch words. A lot of times you will hear people who are exceptional speakers never use those words. I sometimes fall into that. I'll say, "You know," and I have to catch myself. But those are two great ideas. Take an improv class or join Toastmasters International to improve listening and speaking skills.

Lee Pugsley
Both very excellent ideas. And yeah, I would echo what JC said. Anyone that's looking to improve those skills, take either of those. And I'm familiar with both of those.

Alex Howard
How does someone request audio description or how do people find out when the audio describe shows are if they want to go to one? And what are the venues that do it? Because I know you're mentioning Hollywood Bowl. I didn't even know Hollywood Bowl did that.

JC O'Connell
I am so glad you asked me that question. Thank you, thank you, thank you. Lee is familiar. And Alex, I think I have you on my list now, too, for the scheduled shows. If not, I should have you there. I email out a schedule, usually every three months, for all of the shows that are on our schedule to describe. However, if there's a show and the date we're describing doesn't work for you, guess what? You have the right to ask for a different date for the date you have tickets to see that show. You reach out to the box office, and they do have different ways of doing this. Some of them require that you call. Some want you to email. And you say, "I would like audio description for this date. I couldn't come on the day it's described, but here's the day I have my tickets." And then they'll say, "Well, let us check and see if a describer is available," because that is important. All five of us could be booked. It's rare. However, usually one of us can cover a show that's requested. But it does require, first step, is to call the theater. And then the theater reaches out to us. But I always tell people that are on my list, "Hey, when you've requested a show to be audio-described that's not on our schedule, email me so I can become aware. We can check our schedules. And if the theater hasn't gotten back to you within, say, 48 hours, we want to know." Because a lot of these places we have excellent rapport with, and we can email them and say, "Hey, don't know if you saw this request from Lee Pugsley, but he'd like the show described on such and such a date." Yeah, of course, they'd rather you come to the show that's already on the schedule. But places like Pantages is very Very accommodating. Ahmanson, very accommodating. Segerstrom, very accommodating.

Hollywood Bowl takes a little work. They do require, and we're trying to cut this down, they require two weeks notice in advance of the date of the show you requested. And you must email your request two weeks in advance that you want a concert audio described, and you do have to have already purchased your tickets. So this is maybe a good thing like, "Hey, we're going to go see this show at the Hollywood Bowl. JC, do you know if one of your team is available?" And I can say, "Looks good, but you have to reach out to the box office." We had a very sad experience last year where Deborah and I were already there, already being paid for our services, audio describing a program, and we saw a woman walk in with a cane. And I thought, "Oh, I got to tell her we're here, and I'm going to offer her a headset." She didn't know anything about live description. And we were called on the carpet and told we could not approach patrons and offer them the service, even though we were already there doing the service, that they had to have requested the show two weeks in advance. I had another situation where a woman got a last minute ticket. I think it was Joni Mitchell. Somebody either gave her the ticket or she just got lucky and got a ticket. She called me. She said, "Can you describe?" And I said, "I would love to. I'm available. But they're pretty strict about this two week notice." And darn, if they just didn't tell her, "Nope, can't do it." Even though they could have done it because we're available. So we're trying to make some inroads there at the Bowl. But for the time being, if you want to go see a show this season at the Hollywood Bowl, and there are some great ones. I know Earth, Wind, and Fire, Chicago, John Legend, just to name a few. Cynthia Erivo is actually, I think, going to sing the role of Jesus in Jesus Christ Superstar concert version. Very exciting. Just keep in mind, you have to email the box office two weeks ahead to request the description.

Alex Howard
And just so everyone knows, this is in Los Angeles, but I mean, I'm sure in other cities, you could probably reach out to your local theater if you have tickets and see if they do live audio description as well.

JC O'Connell
Absolutely. I'm trying to think of places. I know Deborah Lewis, President of Audio Description Los Angeles, has traveled the country training people in different areas. And what changes for theaters is once they know there are blind or low vision patrons in the community who would like this service, that's how we get them to start offering the service. And if there's an area that is needing a describer, I'm sure Deborah could be approached by these theaters to come out and train two or three people in the community to do this. I know she went to Florida to do this because my sister was in the program in Florida, but Florida wasn't really on board with continuing the program. They did get a couple of requests for a description here and there, but it takes a while in some of these other cities to really serve the blind community.

Lee Pugsley
That also brings me then to the point of, I guess I'll propose this question next is, where do you see the future of live audio description heading? Do you think it's continuing to grow? And then what areas of growth do you see within live audio description, areas that you'd like to see growth in?

JC O'Connell
Well, it's been amazing. Actually, the Hollywood Bowl thing only happened, I think, back in 2022, because one of our regular patrons who comes to the Pantages and the Ahmanson requested a description of Boy George. So the Hollywood Bowl did reach out to us. Deborah said, "Are you available? Because I'm out of town." I said, "No, Deborah, it's a crowd concert. What is there to describe?" She said, "The patron asked for it. Can you do it or not?" "Yeah, I'll do it." So I love boy George, but that was years ago with Culture Club. So I started researching his recent--which I found online. People-- Thank God for those people who aren't supposed to be recording the concert, and they do. I love you. So I found his concert in many different cities, knowing it wouldn't be perhaps the exact same playlist or the exact outfit or exact opening act. But I did research him and his opening act, Berlin. Then he had surprise guest Lulu, who I'm very familiar with because I grew up with her and to serve with love, which they started playing clips of the movie and Sidney Poitier. So because of my background and being as old as I am and having that cultural experience, it was great because that had to be done on the fly. There wasn't a time I could go... Well, actually, I'm going to take that back. I went the night before because this was my first rock concert to describe. And he did play for two nights. I went the night before, and so I was able to see what I was going to describe. And that was really a good thing for me. But most of the time with these rock concerts, I did... Oh, golly, I'm trying to think who else I... Oh, Depeche Mode. Yeah, I'm an opera girl, so I had to really study their history, that one of their band members had died, and I thought, "Oh, they're going to do a tribute to him, which they did." I didn't want to just go, "Oh, there's some guy on the screen." It was their colleague. So there are times when I really have to research the songs, the videos, and the people in that situation. Then we got a request, which was later pulled back. Somebody wanted us to describe a wrestling match. No problem. I call that theater. That is live theater. So that was not going to be a problem for us. But for whatever reason, the person didn't follow through, didn't get tickets.

I personally would love to do live audio description of local college basketball, both the men and women, because when I watch it on TV, I can hear "This one went for the three. They missed it. It's running back down the court. There's a foul." But they don't get that because the people in the stands are watching it. They don't need someone to describe what just happened. So there is a possibility we could open up for that. We are looking ahead to the Olympics to see what we might be describing there, as well as their cultural activities that they always have during the Olympics. We also had a request... I'm trying to think. There was another request. The rock concerts, wrestling. It'll come back to me. But yes, we're open to that. Where do I see the future? As long as we have patrons who want live description, this will stay a viable thing for people to ask for and for us to do. They do have something called Gala Pro in New York. Have you experienced that, Lee?

Lee Pugsley
No, I haven't.

JC O'Connell
It's evidently prerecorded and runs on light cues of the show. I know Deborah has experienced it, just to know what Gala Pro is, she's not a fan. I personally feel if it's live theater, it should be live description. That's my feeling.

Lee Pugsley
Okay. I have heard about this, actually, about audio description tracks going with lighting cues, and I applaud the effort there. But I agree with you that I think that if it's live theater or live performance, it should be live audio description, just because, once again, if anything can happen at any point in time, and you can't always bank on the fact that the performance is going to be the exact same every time. And if you're a blind or low vision viewer in the audience, you may miss something unexpected if it's on the Gala Pro thing.

JC O'Connell
Exactly. And it can be something where maybe somebody makes a facial expression that's just random or not planned. Live theater should have live description. Now, I have listened, and I do love listening to the audio description of TV shows and film. It's like, I can't go to a film now without description because it helps me keep some of the characters straight. I really love it. I also pick up tips with vocabulary and expression, so I'm constantly learning, but it is different. I listen at the end and I'll hear, "Audio description by Deluxe in connection with Walt Disney Company. This audio description was written by so and so narrated by." And I'm like, "Wait a minute, you have a writer and a narrator?" I got to write my own pre-show notes. I got to do this on the fly. So it's much more of a luxury for an audio describer who's just a narrator to go in and read a script that someone has already prepared.

I did do a couple of reality shows when Deborah Lewis, my colleague, was out of town. They were two great reality shows that I enjoyed describing, but it was intense. I had to watch the time codes. I had to abbreviate so that I didn't step on the lines because in a recording, you really can't -- there's no forgiveness. You cannot talk over these people. And there's somebody there that's in the studio recording my voice. Once I've written the script, I give him the script. Here are the time codes. Here's what I'm going to say. We go time code to time code. And then if it's a little off, he'll move it up or back, just like when I used to do voiceover in Spain doing movies. They had the technology that if it was just a tick over or it didn't quite match the lips, they could adjust it in post. But it's a whole different thing. Again, those people who do films and TV, if they don't have to write it and just narrate, it's like, "Woah, that's a sweet gig." That's really great.

Alex Howard
Do you think in the future, they'll have Fathom Events described? Because I know Fathom Events, that's one thing I've always not liked about them. I mean, they'll do movies sometimes, but sometimes they'll do live operas or whatever. And I think it'd be great if they had live description on that.

JC O'Connell
I couldn't agree with you more. I did have a project for a particular university last year. There was a blind student at this University who was taking... I'm gathering it was an opera appreciation class. They were studying five operas, but of the five operas, they had three different productions over the years. And then, as I found out in the middle of the project, they added two more operas because that was the thesis project for the students. So those were two more. They happened to be Russian operas, which I had to learn. There were no subtitles. I had to learn what the whole show was about. I looked that up. I looked at lectures. That was intense. But it was great to be able to describe an opera and know it was recorded for someone. Now, in this instance, I couldn't do supertitles. That was not a possibility. I could only describe action. So I go to the Fathom Events. I love the Opera Fathom Events. And there are other events they do where they bring back classic films. And because they're so old, there's no description. I am with you. I don't know that Fathom is going to get on board. For instance, I was looking forward-- I wanted to hear the audio description of The Nightmare Before Christmas. And I took a blind friend with me, and we were so excited. And they said, "Well, there's no description track for this." And I'm like, "Oh, bummer. That's not cool."

Alex Howard
Yeah, I think it's a Fathom thing.

JC O'Connell
It's a Fathom.

Alex Howard
Because they've done Harry Potter, and Harry Potter has description. Good. So I think it's something with their files. I don't know why they don't do description.

JC O'Connell
I don't either. And it's really frustrating because they have some great shows to come through Fathom. Interesting, I looked up some operas, National Opera of Scotland, I think, and they had description on this video I watched, but it's not common. For instance, I don't think the Met offers live audio description, although Deborah told me there was another opera company in the nation that does live audio description. I can't think who it is right now, but it's not, it's not nationwide. It's not company-wide for these operas. I would love to change that because that's a thing I love is opera, live opera, especially. So yeah, I'm with you. I wish Fathom could get on board with the description.

Lee Pugsley
Now, do you guys have relationships with local colleges or high schools? Let's say I wanted to go see a high school or college production. Is there a way that they could get in touch with you and make that happen for more localized productions, Jill?

JC O'Connell
They absolutely can get in touch with Deborah Lewis at Audio Description Los Angeles. We don't currently... Well, I'll take that back. She was asked at CSUN to do one program, I think it was some short plays or whatever. One time, they reached out to her, and she was able to broker a deal for them to negotiate the fee because it was a very small production. But yes, we're open to discussions and fee structures for people that are outside the usual mainstream theaters that get national tours coming or large opera companies, because that is a factor. They have to look at their budget and see how they can fit it in. There was one experience I had, years ago, we were invited to UCLA. They were doing a program, films, about autism. And there were, I think, 10 short films that I described on the fly because I couldn't see them ahead of time. But I sat in the back of the auditorium with my equipment, and we gave the headsets to the people who had requested descriptions. So it is possible. Absolutely.

I did a call the other day with the Glendale chapter of the California Council of the Blind, and people said, "Oh, well, I live out in Redlands, and I want to go to the Redlands Bowl." And I said, "Well, you're in luck because I live 20 minutes from Redlands, but you have to request it as a patron. And then you have to say, 'I know this lady who works for a company that can do the description.'" And then we'll work with them on the fee and make sure our equipment works. It should work. It works at the Hollywood Bowl and the Ford Theater. Okay, because I did want to talk about all the venues we're in currently and how to get us into venues that you would like us. For instance, Lee, I think you said you might go see Legally Blonde or Frozen at La Mirada.

Lee Pugsley
Correct.

JC O'Connell
And you did go see Fiddler last year, and we didn't know. I think you didn't know you could request it at that theater because we've never been there before. They're very open to it. There was a different patron who had requested it and then changed their mind, but we were all set to go test the equipment, preview the show, and then it got called off. And then Deborah talked to you later. It's like, "Well, I went." I was like, "Ohhhh Lee!" [laughs]. So the trick here is to request it with enough time so we can get with the theater, at least preview the show, try out our equipment in the theater, but they're very receptive. So that's my tip for today is if you want to go see a show at La Mirada, let's get the ball rolling on that. And those folks who wanted at Redlands, I'm hoping they request a concert or two there, and we'll see if that works. The other places we're at, we're everywhere. The Ahmanson Theater, the Mark Taper Forum, the Kirk Douglas Theater, Dorothy Chandler Pavilion for operas and ballet, We are at the Hollywood Bowl for rock concerts or any other program. I actually described Live to Picture for Barbie: The Movie last year, including fireworks.

Alex Howard
So that was a great thing. I was going to ask you if you do the movies there. That's great.

JC O'Connell
Well, I've done Live to Picture for Back to the Future. We've done Live to Picture for the Sound of Music Singalong, for Return of the Jedi. Yes. What is it saying? Yes, we can. We absolutely can. The Hollywood Bowl, the Ford Theater, Crypto Arena, the The Kia Forum, the Wiltern Theater, the Orpheum Theater. We'd love to get into SoFi, but it takes a patron to request us. Almost got there last year, we had a patron who was going to see Green Day, and I said, "This is what you need to do. This is how you compose the email. And they either changed their mind about not going or not wanting description, but that did not come to pass.

Alex Howard
Do you do Orange County as well?

JC O'Connell
I'm sorry, we do Segerstom Center. Yes. Costa Mesa. We absolutely are there in Orange County. We have never been invited to South Coast Rep, but again, it takes a patron. We cannot go to a venue and say, "Hey, you should be providing an audio description." They want to see the patron. They want the patron to request it. And then we get our foot in the door.

Alex Howard
Have you ever done Disney on Ice or anything at the Honda Center?

JC O'Connell
I have not done the Honda Center. We don't have a relationship with them yet. And that's a perfect thing to describe, just like the wrestling. It's all showmanship. It's all costumes and spins and jumps. It's a dance program on ice, right? So we would love to go in and do those shows. We do have an agreement with Crypto Arena nationwide. But again, it takes a patron requesting. So whoever is in Crypto Arena's family, which is AEG Worldwide, that's their parent company, you request it, and we'll see if we can do it.

Lee Pugsley
Yeah, and we always talk about advocacy on the show in terms of being blind or low vision, whether it's for watching media at home, going to see movies and movie theaters, or being at film festivals, or now live performance, that we also have to be the ones that advocate for ourselves. For any listeners out there, whether or not you live in the Los Angeles area, if you do go see live performances and you have not experienced live audio description but would like to, a good starting point is always just to talk to the manager at the theater you're going to, or talk to someone on the staff over there and just let them know that this is a need that would help you enjoy the performance and would enhance your viewing experience, and then at least you get the ball rolling. I think that a lot of theaters probably don't know that live audio description exists. So that's a good place to start. It's just introducing them to the idea that there is live audio description out there, and there are people that are ready and willing and waiting to do it, but they just have to know that there's a demand for it, like you were saying. If none of us in the blind or low vision communities are asking for this, then of course, no theater or performance venue is going to think that this is something that actually matters.

JC O'Connell
Right. It's all up to the patron. We are here. We can advocate on our end to, say, get you extra performances, if that's the case, that it's your right to ask for that. And they have to make a reasonable accommodation, which is, is there a describer available? Can it be done in your theater? Yes, yes. So that's a reasonable accommodation. It's interesting because when we got into Crypto for Depeche Mode, that was December 13th of 2023. And it was because a patron requested it. And every time he reached out, emailed, they're like, "Yes, we have boosted listening. Yes, we have signers." He's like, "I'm blind. I'm asking for audio description." I don't know how, it was a miracle, I finally got through to somebody because I then took it up and I said, "Hey, I have a blind friend who really wants to see Depeche Mode. We just described it at the Kia Forum." You can't even get past the receptionist. But she was very sympathetic. She goes, "I'll give this to someone." The next day, I got a call, and they couldn't have been nicer. They're like, "We didn't know how to find you guys. We have had signers for years at Crypto." And she said, "Can you come and do the concert tomorrow?" And I said, "I'm there. I'm available, and I'll be there." And they were just so kind when I got there and took care of my patron and me. That was a great experience. And they're the ones who had reached out to us about the wrestling match until the patron changed their mind. But they're very open to just about anything that's done in that arena. So if Disney on Ice is at Crypto or Kia Forum, we probably would describe. We need to get a relationship, say, with Honda, but it's going to take a patron to reach out and say, "I need this. And by the way, here's who you contact to provide audio description." And I'll tell you another thing, these venues that have signers, like, excuse me, SoFi has signers. I checked it out, before I told that person to reach out. It's called discrimination if you're going to offer signers, but you don't offer audio describers. Okay? I'm just saying.

Alex Howard
JC, where can people reach out to you to sign up for that email list that you send out?

JC O'Connell
You got it. Please reach out to me. And if you have anywhere you post this or want to remind it on a future show, I'm going to give it to you right now. So here we go. JCOconnell2020@gmail.com. J as in Joyful, C as in Cat, O as in Oscar, C as in Cat. O as in Oscar, N as in Naughty, N as in Naughty, E as in elegant, L as in Lovely, L as in Lovely. 2020@gmail.com. JCOconnell2020@gmail.com. Remember, it's double N, E, double L. JCOconnell2020@gmail.com.

Lee Pugsley
Perfect. We will definitely link your contact information in the description of this episode. So if you are looking for live audio description in the Los Angeles or Orange County area, please reach out to JC, or if you want to see what shows or performances are coming up in the Los Angeles area for the rest of this year, the rest of 2025, at least, and even going into 2026, JC will happily send you a list, and you can see what performances are available, when those dates are. And like JC said, you can always request another date if you can't make it on the audio description performance date as well. JC, thank you so much for being on our show, finally.

JC O'Connell
Yay! 

Lee Pugsley
This has been such a delightful and insightful conversation. I really appreciate your time chatting with us, and I've learned so much.

JC O'Connell
I'm so happy to be here. Thank you. Have me back again. I just love both of you, and I really appreciate the exposure for audio description, live audio description, and Audio Description Los Angeles. Thank you so much.

Lee Pugsley
Absolutely. And I guess two really quick lightning round questions for you.

JC O'Connell
Yes.

Lee Pugsley
What upcoming show in the next year are you looking forward most to describing? And is there a show that you have not audio described that you would love to describe at some point?

JC O'Connell
Absolutely. I'm looking forward to describing Les Misérables again. I'm always looking forward when I can do Jesus Christ Superstar. Can't wait. As far as new shows that I would love to audio describe, if Titanic comes here, I've got dibs on that. That looks like it's going to be so much fun to describe.

Lee Pugsley
Perfect. All of those, solid shows.

Alex Howard
Yes. One last quick question. What makes a show fun to audio describe for you?

JC O'Connell
That's a great question. When I have a show that's full of activity and movement, and it's a show that I really attach to, for instance, Jesus Christ Superstar, I'm going to tell you real quick thing about that. My sister was in the original Spanish production in the chorus in Madrid in 1975, Jesús Cristo Superstar with Camilo Sesto. So I used to go to those rehearsals. So that show is very near and dear to my heart. But I love, love, love. For instance, I love anything opera because that's my bag. So it makes it really fun for me to be able to do the super titles and to share my love of that art form with many, many people. Yes, yes. That's what I love. I love when there's a lot of great stuff on stage I can describe and things that I relate to that are really part of my soul. And I will just I add one more thing. I would love to audio describe a live concert of Taylor Swift. Yes, I am a Taylor Swiftie. Yes, I'm a Swiftie over 50, as they say.

Alex Howard
[laughs]

Lee Pugsley
Love that. Love it.

JC O'Connell
Yes, you can't see my hair. Wait a minute. I'm going to do Taylor Swift hair. I'm going to describe. I've taken all of my long blonde, graying hair and put it over my right shoulder, and I am a Swiftie over 50. [all laugh]

Alex Howard
That's awesome.

Lee Pugsley
Awesome. Awesome. Yeah, once again, thank you so much, JC. And for all your listeners out there, thank you so much for spending time with us. If you have any questions for me and Alex or any comments on anything you've heard today, you can always get in contact with us by emailing DarkRoomFilmCast@gmail.com. Once again, that's DarkRoomFilmCast@gmail.com. And you can follow us on Instagram and YouTube @DarkRoomFilmCast.

Alex Howard
We'd like to thank All Senses Go and Matt Lauterbach for making captions of this episode possible, as well as BlindCAN for helping out with editing.

JC O'Connell
Can you... Dark Room Film Cast... One more time for me?

Lee Pugsley
DarkRoomFilmCast@gmail.com.

JC O'Connell
Beautiful. Thank you so much.

Lee Pugsley
And with that, thank you guys once again, and we'll see you here next time on The Dark Room.

JC O'Connell
Thank you so much.

Alex Howard
Thanks, JC. See you guys.

JC O'Connell
Bye. Thank you..