Ep. 45: Celebrating Disability Pride Month w/ DARUMA Actors Tobias Forrest & John W. Lawson

Alex and Lee kick off Disability Pride Month by welcoming disabled actors, Tobias Forrest and John W. Lawson, to the show. They discuss their award-winning film DARUMA and the importance of authentic disability representation in the entertainment industry.

DARUMA is currently available to stream for free with an Amazon Prime Video subscription. To get the accompanying audio description track, download the All4Access app here:

https://all4access.com/how-to-use 

If you have any questions or comments for us, please e-mail darkroomfilmcast@gmail.com and be sure to follow us on Instagram and subscribe on YouTube: @darkroomfilmcast.

Check out the Blind Can Film Festival hosted by our sponsor, Ben Fox:
https://www.blindcan.com

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Transcript

Alex Howard
Hi, everyone. It's July. So, Lee and I want to wish all of you a happy Disability Pride Month.

Lee Pugsley
Alex and I are so excited to present this episode to you, and wanted to let you know that since we recorded this, the movie we're going to be discussing, Daruma, that's spelled D-A-R-U-M-A, is now available to watch free with an Amazon Prime subscription. You can go to the app store and download the All 4Access app. That's A-L-L, the number 4, Access, A-C-C-E-S-S, All4Access app. And you'll be able to sync the film with the audio description track on the app. How it works is you start playing the film on Amazon Prime Video, and then you press the sync button on the app, and that will go ahead and sync the audio description track so you can enjoy.

Alex Howard
We hope you all enjoy this episode.

Lee Pugsley
What's up, everyone, and welcome back to another episode of The Dark Room, where two blind cinephiles illuminate the sighted. I'm Lee Pugsley.

Alex Howard
I'm Alex Howard.

Lee Pugsley
And this is a podcast hosted by two legally blind guys for film lovers of all abilities. And today, I am super excited about the episode that we have planned. In our podcast, we typically tend to focus on things related to the blind and low vision experience since both me and Alex are in that community. But we also want to bring awareness to the disability community at large because we are part of a greater community as well. And there's a lot that we can learn from hearing other perspectives and learning about other people's walks of life. So with that being said, we're going to go ahead and introduce our guests for today. We have John Lawson and Tobyas Forrest on our podcast today. So excited to have you guys.

Tobias Forrest
Thanks so much for having us.

John W. Lawson
Yeah, thanks a lot. We appreciate it.

Lee Pugsley
And to give you a bit of background on who they are. Both of them are filmmakers, actors, producers, and they have recently completed a film called Daruma, which is a really great film that has really nice, authentic disability representation. It premiered at Dances with Films, played at Slamdance, and has also played this festival circuit in other festivals as well. So, yeah, once again, John and Toby, thank you so much for being here. And as we start out, just to give the listener an idea of who you are, we were wondering if you'd be able to share a little bit about your journey with disability.

Tobias Forrest
Well, I think John has paved the path in a way for me, so I'll let him continue to pave the path. John, take it away.

John W. Lawson
Well, I was a-- I guess, where do I start? Well, my mommy and daddy... No. I was injured in an electrical accident over 38 years ago. I was working with a company that painted above-ground water tanks and working a real job, as my dad used to say, in between acting and concert piano-playing jobs. I started playing piano when I was three, started taking lessons when I was four, and studied piano continuously for 18 years, classical piano. It was working as-- and performing's all I've ever done-- and I was working with this job painting above-ground water tanks, where an electric line was brought in close to, and I had an aluminum extension pole extended about 17 feet that arced over to the back of the pole. We were on a scaffold about 30 feet up in the air. I spent the next four and a half months in the North Carolina Jaycee burn Center, and they amputated my left hand and most of my arm that night. Then about one month later-- and I got hurt on February the 4th-- and about one month later, they amputated my right-hand. So I lost both hands in an electrical accident. And I thought, "Hey, you know what? I was an actor. I'm a trained actor before I lost my hands. So this should be great. I'll be a trained actor with no hands, and I'll get all kinds of jobs because there's nobody else out there like that." Little did I know that that would then lead to 38 years as an advocate for people with disabilities in front of & behind the camera. And that's what I've done with a few acting jobs here and there.

Alex Howard
And you said that was 38 years? That you-- 

John W. Lawson
38 years ago. February the 4th, 1987.

Alex Howard
Wow, that's amazing. Thank you for all the work and advocacy that you've been doing.

John W. Lawson
Well, it's-- You know, when I first started, we'll say 35 years ago, 38 years ago, it was about nine-tenths of 1% across all scripted television shows, and that was just the three networks at the time, that-- it was about nine-tenths of 1% were the number of scripted actors with disabilities. Of course, about 99% of those were done by able-bodied actors. Here we are, 38 years later, and a new report just came out that out of 350 TV shows, and they did it for seven years, from 2016 to 2023, over those whole seven years, only 3.9% of the characters had a disability, which now the number in the US is approaching about 30%. It's about 28.7% of the viewing and purchasing audience in the US has a disability. That's about 70 million people who aren't seeing themselves represented into the entertainment that they welcome into their home or that they spend their discretionary income to go see on a big screen.

Alex Howard
Yeah. For those who don't know, it's about one in four people have a disability. So if media were a correct representation, about one in four characters would also have a disability.

Tobias Forrest
There's four in four on this podcast.

Alex Howard
There you go. That's very true.

Tobias Forrest
We got 100% rocking this thing, guys.

Alex Howard
Yeah. [laughs]

Lee Pugsley
Yeah, I think this is a blueprint.

John W. Lawson
It's about 16% of the world's population or about 1 billion people. You can imagine the amount of discretionary income from either one billion people or about 70 million people in the United States that could be spending money on television shows that are advertising or selling products or going to the movie to watch the films.

Alex Howard
Yeah. No, that's all very true. And Lee and I bring up the point that I think as you look at the population getting older, more and more people have a disability. Obviously, you have trouble hearing and seeing and other things like that. Toby, what is your journey with the disability community and all that? 

Tobias Forrest
Yeah. I mean, unlike John, I was not really an actor before. I was a singer, I was in a band, and I was doing that, and I was a jeweler in college. And then I had a diving accident. I was diving off of the side of a waterfall in the Grand Canyon, and it was too shallow and shattered the fifth vertebrae, and did some drowning and some dying, and they're not ready for my sense of humor, or they're not ready for my sense of humor down there. So my whole life changed. I had to give up on jewelry and became a quadriplegic, started using a wheelchair, spent a couple months on life support, a few months in rehab, and just adapting to a new life, and decided to go back to school and get a master's in psychology. And while I was doing that, I had to portray someone with Alzheimer's. And after I did that, my class asked me why I wasn't an actor. So I reached out to my good friend Danny Murphy, who was a fantastic actor, quadriplegic, and in all the Farreley Brothers movies. And he's looking down on John and I right now, hopefully proud of this movie, Daruma and its representation. He was a huge advocate. So he inspired me to take some improv classes. Soon after, I moved out to LA, and he told me about the Christopher Reeve acting scholarship. I auditioned. My first audition with the old man with Alzheimer's and ended up winning the scholarship, and it totally changed my life. So you know, just little roles by little roles and gaining experience and knowledge and being humbled in the process. Now, 20 years after that, I won a Christopher Reeve Acting Award at the Media Access Awards for Daruma. Not only has this movie opened up minds and conversation and accessibility, but it's given John and I a chance to be award-winning actors which is rare in this world.

Lee Pugsley
Yeah, I know. That's amazing. A huge congratulations to both of you on the accolades that you received for this movie. Very well deserved. We want to go ahead and dive into talking about Daruma, actually. I will just say that I really appreciate this movie because when we talk about disability representation, what you guys bring to the table in this movie is just telling a very authentic story of the human condition. And what I love about this movie is the main focus isn't, "Oh, let's focus on the disability of these characters." It's focused on the human experience. And if you were to take the story and put other actors in it, the story is still the story. But what I love about it is you still bring your own authentic experience and walks of life to the movie, but that's not the focus. I mean, one of the conversations that we always have is, how can we get representation out there where it's not about the disability, it's just about the human condition and the universal human bonds that connect all of us together? And I think you guys accomplish that so well in a very poignant and thought-provoking, humorous and moving way. So congratulations to you guys on that.

Tobias Forrest
Thank you very much, Lee.

Alex Howard
Yeah, I saw the movie at Dances with Films in 2023. It was fantastic. And the audio description was there right from the first screening, so that was awesome. And for those of you who want to check out Daruma, you can rent it on iTunes and Amazon and everywhere where you normally would rent movies digitally, and you can download All4Access, and it syncs your phone to the movie, and you can have the audio description wherever you're watching it. So that was really cool.

Tobias Forrest
I just have to mention that the company that did that is AudioEyes, and they've done tons and tons of audio description for major award shows, major television shows, just tons and tons of stuff. They're a great community led by Rick Boggs, who is a blind, visually impaired business owner. It's really driven by guys that know their business and that are really focused on just creating a really great product. So they did that for us and we're totally just so happy that they were there and appreciative that AudioEyes came on board and helped us out to make it a fully inclusive movie.

John W. Lawson
Something that was also very important to Toby, myself, and the producers, that this film had to be more than just authentic casting. It had to be available to everyone. So it has burned in captions as well, or there's captions as well, as well as audio description.

Alex Howard
Yeah, that's really huge, especially for a movie like this, but for any movie to do. But the fact that you guys went above and beyond and made... Obviously, it's a movie featuring disabled actors, so you want it accessible to everyone. But to piggyback off of what Lee was saying, I think what's really great about this movie is that the story could be told with able-bodied actors, but the fact that you two do have a disability, and the characters do as well, adds another layer to the story and really fleshes out the characters and makes them feel like real human beings. And so I wanted to see if you guys could summarize the movie for people, but then also talk about the production of it, how it was being on set, what accommodations you guys had, all that stuff.

Tobias Forrest
Well, again, John was the pioneer for this film for both of us. I wouldn't have been here without him. But, John, why don't you tell the story about how it all began?

John W. Lawson
Well, Toby and I have known each other for quite for a few years. We've met, I think, through Danny Murphy, probably. Toby and Danny were friends. Then with me being involved in the disability community, I met Danny and Toby and I became friends. And um, we, I don't know how many years ago, started reading for each other. When we would have an audition, we would be the off-camera reader. So my agent called me and said, "Hey, there's this audition for a double-hand amputee. It's not in your age range, but would you still like to audition?" I go, "Hell, yeah." You know, I've been doing this for 30 years. I've never seen an audition for a double-hand amputee come out in a breakdown. So, I, of course, went over to Toby's house, and he was reading for me off camera for the audition. And I told Toby, I said, "You should audition for the guy in the wheelchair," because it was a guy with no hands and a guy in a wheelchair for the film. And he goes, "Well, I don't have the part. I don't have any lines." I go, "Just read the opposite. We'll just turn the camera around."

Tobias Forrest
I told John about four times.

John W. Lawson
Yeah, he did. He kept saying, "No, no, I'm not going to do it."

Tobias Forrest
"He's a paraplegic. I'm a quadriplegic. They're going to have to do a bunch of things. They're going to want me to do a bunch of stuff I can't do. I don't want to waste the time on their film," but he convinced me.

John W. Lawson
I just told him. I said, "Well, just do it and let them say no. Don't say no for them." And of the two scenes that we did, we sent them in. I sent mine in. Toby sent his to his agent. They went on and sent it in. Then we got called in for a callback. When we got into the room or when we got there in the waiting room, I asked the producer, we didn't know anything about them, "Could Toby and I audition together in the callback?" They said, "Yeah, sure." So we did. And I think out of the two auditions, one or two scenes, one was where I was mad at him, which to me, that's easy to do, what I call Cage Rage. You know, Nicolas Cage always had a scene where he's raging. Then there was one where, this touching scene, where we were friends. I think our true friendship over all those years working together and auditioning together for so long, came through, and that's what clenched it for both of us. And Toby's just an amazing actor to begin with.

Tobias Forrest
It's vice versa. And I think that transferred onto the experience of being on set. Kelli and Alexander Yellen are the writer, producers, and he's the director, and they were committed to inclusive casting and authentic casting. Despite many offers to cast famous people and try and do it for a big money, they said no, stuck to their guns, cast John and I. We did a little proof project, that went through, and then the film went through. And being on set was a fantastic experience because, one, I had John there who already knew how to look out for me on a big brother sense. If I needed something, he was there to look out for me. But Kelli and Alex already were hands-on. We had all worked together a little bit before, and despite only having 15 days and a very small budget to do this film, they were able to do it in COVID with John and I. And it just proves that this indie film with no budget and two authentically cast actors can create a product that is not focused on disability to try and sell it, that feels real, that is inclusive to everybody. And it doesn't use CGI and tactics to try and pull at your heartstrings by using disability as a trope. It's really, I think, a blueprint for if the major film companies would do the same thing, we would really have some better products out there. I think there's things within the disability community that will always benefit the community at large, not just elevators. But I think sign language behind the scenes on crews would be helpful. I think making sets as ADA compliant as possible would be helpful. Obviously, writing authentic stories and using authentic people as those characters, it just takes away all of the obstacles, and it creates something that feels true.

John W. Lawson
That was one thing that was important to Toby and myself, was that both Robert and Patrick, the two characters, are nothing like the disability tropes that are prevalent in films that we've all seen. Both of the characters are just ground-breaking, fully faceted, nuanced characters who just happen to have disabilities. As you said, they could have put able-bodied people in there. And the film, it's important to say also that we go to movies to feel something, and Daruma is a movie that will make you feel. It's not a moral lesson movie at all. The movie just has a heart that anybody can relate. In a way, it's a survival story and a rescue story, and that makes good drama. You're going to laugh some along the way, too.

Tobias Forrest
I always say that what you think is going to be a movie about two guys with disabilities, you just find out it's a movie about two guys who are just really bad fathers.

Lee Pugsley
Yeah, I know. All of that is so well said. As a creative myself, when I'm in the producing chair or the writing chair, the way I approach projects to bring authentic representation is thinking about if this story did not have actors with disabilities at all in it, what is the human core of the story? What is something that everyone in the audience can say, "I see myself in parts of this character or that character. I felt the way that this character feels." And I think with Daruma, you guys did that very well because there was that human core, that human heart there. And the other thing I loved about it, too, is that for so long, we've seen the inspirational disabled character that's just-- everyone is very saintly and angelic. And let's be honest, as people within the disability community, it's like, we're human, too. We have good days, we have bad days, just like anyone else. It's like, let's show all sides of that, too. Let's show the sides of humanity that can be angry, that can be frustrated, that can be annoying. But let's also show the sides of humanity that can be joyful, that can can grow, can learn, can arc as well. All of that was there in Daruma, and I really appreciate the way that it was crafted in that regard.

Tobias Forrest
I think that is so much due to Kelli and her writing. I am so impressed because as a writer myself, she has included so many aspects of society into this film without it feeling pressed or heavy-handed in any way. She gives you substance abuse, disability issues, PTSD issues, veteran stuff, health coverage. 

John W. Lawson
Wheelchair transportation.

Tobias Forrest
Alzheimer's. Yeah, transportation, having a disability, just so many topics that anybody can grab a grain of salt on and go, "Oh, I  know what that tastes like."

John W. Lawson
Well, as you said, Lee, I agree. I want the viewers to see themselves represented in a way that reflects the reality of their own experience, whether they have a disability or not. That's what I hope the message in this film carries, that it will empower others by affirming that they don't have to fit into the limited narratives of triumph or villainy, as people with disabilities often are, but that their stories, like all stories, are varied and valid. That's what I'm hoping, that the film will challenge the assumptions about what disabilities or what disabled people can achieve. Showing that they belong in literally every aspect of life, including roles that aren't specifically about disability. I'm a guy driving across country with a quadriplegic, or in the movie, a paraplegic, and a four-year-old little girl in the back seat with no hands. People think I can't drive a car, but yet I'm an airplane pilot. I have my pilot's license as well, so I fly airplanes with no hands.

Alex Howard
Yeah, and as Lee was saying, I think to reemphasize what you were saying, what makes this movie so great is that your characters have disabilities, obviously, but they have flaws. They are human, obviously. There's drinking and all the flaws that you would find in a normal character, and also the things that make you care about the character, too. So the fully fleshed out, well-rounded person, which a lot of disabled roles don't normally get that.

Lee Pugsley
Now, as we talk about getting this out to the public, I'm curious to know, were there any challenges when you guys would approach different producers or festivals or distributors about their hesitation with thinking that this could reach an audience?

John W. Lawson
Well, that's more probably a question for Alex or Kelli, as they were the producers that mostly dealt with that. But just from a secondary point of view, I can tell you that they did have quite the struggle. Independent film by itself is a struggle, and trying to get it out into the world is... Because everybody just thinks, "Oh, if you get on a channel or a streamer, that, oh, you're successful." But most of those people don't want to pay anything. Nobody wanted to do an acquisition and just buy the film outright. So Kelli and Alex took it upon themselves. They did sign with one distributor, which is now on Apple and Amazon and other streaming services. But the idea was to be able to sell it so you can go on and make another film, which it didn't, which didn't exactly happen. So Kelli took it upon herself. We had a limited theatrical, and we were released in streaming and theatrical at the same time. So we were in New York, Washington, DC, Chicago, where we played in theaters there. We had a limited theatrical run as well.

Tobias Forrest
And that's with Peter Farreley coming on board in name as an executive producer and with that support and that endorsement. It's a difficult world to get the product out there. And I think also nowadays, so much has to be put into the press and getting it out there. That's probably just as expensive as the movie itself.

John W. Lawson
Well, you can take Anora, you know, that won an Oscar. That was an independent film, Anora. It had a $6 million budget as an independent film. But they spent $18 million, three times their budget on marketing, for them to end up winning an Oscar.

Lee Pugsley
Yeah, the struggle is real. And that's why I always hear that marketing budgets are usually double the budget of production, if not more. And Anora is a great example of that point being proven. So then I'm curious to know, with where we are at now within authentic disability representation on screen and even behind the scenes, I guess we'll throw that in there as well. What is your analysis of the current state of disability representation in the industry? And what do you think it looks like to move forward? How do we do that now?

Tobias Forrest
I mean, I think it's still choppy waters. I see some awesome representation, right? I see it in animation now. There's even some great shows like Jurassic Park that has a character with a limb difference and the actress that portrays that is authentically cast. I'm sure they reach out, hopefully, and get the knowledge from her. There's a show Pulse on Netflix that that has a great authentically cast main character. John and I were authentically cast in the first film that apparently has two authentically cast actors in the two main parts, which is surprising. I see, also, opportunities that are lost. I mean, How to Train Your Dragon is coming out, and so many opportunities for actors with a limb difference that are being lost to big names that will be green screened and have a blue sock on their leg or their arm or whatever and cost tons of money and won't bring the authenticity that an actor like John could bring to those roles, even if it was just a voiceover. But this is a live-action, and those are opportunities that are just being lost. I mean, you still have actors portraying characters in wheelchairs that aren't. And you know, I spoke with someone the other day. They said, "What's your favorite movie?" They said, "Me Before You." I said, "I wish I could enjoy the movie, but I can't because I feel like it took the part away from somebody who could have really had a chance."

John W. Lawson
Well, not only that, but the main theme of Me Before You is that it's better to die than to live with a disability. So, you know--

Tobias Forrest
Yeah, the narrative's--

John W. Lawson
That's what it's telling the world. Yeah, it's telling the world that, "Hey, if you get a disability, you're better off just dying." That's just so shameful. There are some few examples. Darryl Mitchell on the new show Shifting Gears with Tim Allen. Katy Sullivan, a double leg amputee, is doing a recurring role on Hacks, and she's done Broadway and a couple of other things. But there are a few examples. Toby's nemesis, Christopher Thornton.

Tobias Forrest
Not my nemesis because I owe him everything. He's amazing actor.

John W. Lawson
Yeah, but no, but every time he auditions for a role, it seems like where he's going up against Christopher. But he been in Hawaii, not Hawaii Five-0, but I don't know, he was in the show in Hawaii. I can't think of the name of it right now.

Tobias Forrest
But what you're saying is that there's some really amazing authenticity. There is. Ali Stroker, Michael Thornton. There's a lot of amazing talent, and the pool is deep if Hollywood wants to go dipping their toe in there and going, "Oh, my gosh, there's some real talent here." One great thing that we are all aware of here is the Easter Seals Disability Film Challenge. I'm wearing the shirt right now representing... They just had the awards show. John was there with me on the red carpet, and he's got a film in there. He's been doing it for years. That has proven that people can make their own product, create it, and put it out into the world, even if it's just a short film, and bring some authenticity, some representation, and hopefully highlight that there is talent out there that can be tapped into and stories that can be told that aren't solely focused on disability, trying to pull at your heartstrings or make you angry or do whatever.

John W. Lawson
The goal is to expand disability representation to the point where the presence of disabled actors and crew members is normalized. It shouldn't be just one individual who represents the whole disability community. We've got two or three examples that we've just given, but they go, "Oh, look, here's this person, here's that person." But as we were saying before, approximately one in four people, but yet less than 2% of the characters are actually with disability, and they're still being used able-bodied people to pretend to put on the character of disability. It's amazing to me that people will say, "Well, the best actor should get the role," and that's true. But would we say that someone can put on this cloak of disability, pretend to be blind, pretend to be in a wheelchair without the life-lived experience. But if we replaced... David Radcliffe had a really great observation recently that if you replace disability with any race that you want to use and say that character put on that cloak of race, would we still be okay with that? And I think that's an interesting commentary because we accept it for disability, but we don't for any other of the protected groups.

Tobias Forrest
I think also the big argument against "this actor should have the role" and, you know, "Is having a disability really acting," you know, any of these questions. One of the big rebuttals is that the only jobs that actors with disabilities are considered for are the ones that are specifically written for those actors with disabilities. So these other actors are open up to 100% of roles or 90% of roles, whereas we are very limited to maybe that 2% of roles that are written to have a disability, and then even less specifically for the one that we do have. So while I will very rarely ever be considered to be brought in for just an uncle, unless it says uncle in a wheelchair. Or firefighter, unless it says firefighter in a wheelchair. And I guarantee there's firefighters in wheelchairs. They may not be on the front lines of the fires, but they're doing something. Or people with visual impairment, hearing impairment, limb difference, all the above. Unless the door is opened for us as well, for all of those roles, then I feel like, "No, no no no no no. Give me the ones that are specific to me first. At least give me a shot first. And if I don't fill the dotted line, then go after whatever else." But I think there is authentic casting, inclusive casting, and then traditional casting. Authentic casting is trying to be as close to the character as possible. Inclusive casting is, "Hey, maybe they have some of the traits that this character and they can identify with that." I may not have this disability, but I'm similar to it and I can identify with it. Or classic, which is just, "Let me grab somebody and throw them in that and give them limited training."

Alex Howard
One of the ones that Lee and I bring up a lot is Wicked with Marissa Bode. That was one of the big blockbusters that had authentic casting.

John W. Lawson
Correct. She was actually at the Easter Seals Disability Film Challenge as well and gave one of the awards.

Tobias Forrest
I have a reverse question for you guys, because as somebody who's done a lot of audio description and I have a lot of blind and visually impaired friends, what is it like for you guys on your end? I mean, there's shows like Daredevil. There's countless other shows that really incorporate blindness as a tool for the film, as a plot tool, when there's so many where everybody goes blind or something like that. And films that do that have a huge opportunity to then include people from that community. But do they? I mean, is there a record of that?

Alex Howard
For me, I'm fine with Daredevil not doing that just because Charlie Cox is so good. I feel like he got the blessing because he got an award from, I think it was the American Council for the Blind. One of the blind organizations gave him an award after season one. And a blind person I don't think could do a lot of the choreography. I mean, he's like a superhero, a blind character. But a movie like See For Me, which we've talked about before, it's a home invasion horror movie with the main character being blind. And that's a great movie because the character is flawed. Like with your guys, it's a well rounded, real person, authentically cast. But I think even in the blind community, it's also very rare. Lee, you're an actor. You could probably answer this better than I can.

Lee Pugsley
Yeah. So I'm coming at it from two different perspectives. The first one is as an actor. It is frustrating to me because with blind and low vision actors, while there have been improvements, I guess one of the best examples lately is All the Light We Cannot See, the Netflix show that came out recently. They cast a blind actress for that role, and that's wonderful. But as an actor, I've gone out on auditions, and the role that I auditioned for was cast with a fully-abled actor playing blind. That's a little frustrating to me. And um, kind of like you said, Toby, it's not so much that I have any entitlement or ownership over this role, but if you're not going to cast me, at least cast someone within the authentic disability community that has blindness or low vision. If you really auditioned every single actor who's blind or low vision that you could find, I guess it's like, what can I say about that? But it would be nice to see those roles going to people within the blind and low vision communities. Then from a purely viewership point of view, when I watch films or TV shows that have blind characters in it and they're not authentically portrayed, there are certain moments in them that sometimes I'm able to pick up on. Like, oh, the way that they're swinging their cane or the way that they're doing this or that. It comes across inauthentic to me. And once again, the average audience member may not pick up on that in the same way that me or Alex would pick up on that. But it also maybe reinforces the idea of this is how blind or low vision people interact with the world, or this is how they operate, when maybe that's not an authentic representation of it. So then we have more education, I guess, to help people understand, "Yeah, your perception of what you see on screen isn't always exactly how it is." So.

John W. Lawson
Well, you have this life experience. Exactly.

Tobias Forrest
I just think sometimes too, when I see a military film and they salute with their hand in a very weird way. I went to military school, so I'm like, "How did they not just do the work to even know how to salute correctly?" That drives me crazy. For us, we see those discrepancies, but I think most of society doesn't, because we're uneducated on the whole or miseducated because of the history of it all. In the 1940s, Stanley Kramer made a movie called The Men, which he cast Marlon Brando in. Every other character was an authentically cast character. They were all guys who are paraplegics. He did that back in the 1940s, going, "Hey, well, I need this guy to play the main character, but I'm going to fill everything else around with authenticity to make it as real and opportunistic as possible." Things that were happening in the 1940s are still not even necessarily happening now, 80 years later. Harold Russell, who was a good friend of John Lawson, obviously paved the way for so many amazing people, won two Oscars. That was a very, very long time ago for playing a guy authentically cast without two arms. And why that hasn't been an opportunity in almost 100 years is like, beyond me.

Alex Howard
And we haven't even brought up CODA either. CODA was a big milestone as well.

Tobias Forrest
Yeah.

Alex Howard
I'm a big horror fan. One of my favorite Nightmare at Elm Street kills was a deaf character. He turned up the hearing aid, and it was a big cheesy thing. But one of the reasons why it's my favorite is because it's about someone with a disability. I'm like, "We could so..." And I'm sure that actor wasn't disabled. It was back in the '80s. But Texas Chainsaw Massacre has a character in a wheelchair. I'm sure-- I'd be shocked if that actor was authentically cast. One of the Friday the 13th movies has an actor wheelchair. There are so many comedies about a group of friends or horror movies about a group of friends. Have one of them authentically cast with someone with a disability, and you can have a lot of fun with that.

Tobias Forrest
Yeah. I think always, and I think just by the nature of my limitations, it brings unique qualities to a character that might otherwise not exist there. I think that's for everybody. We're all uniquely different. But I think especially having a difference with a disability, if you don't address it, it will naturally add flavor to the soup that's being created.

Lee Pugsley
Good way to describe it. That's why I always talk to casting directors or directors or producers, and agents and stuff. I'm always like, "Just send us out for roles that are not disability-specific." Even if the casting director doesn't cast us, there's a visibility. We're getting that visibility. We're helping to change the narrative for casting directors to think, "Oh, maybe there is another option that I've never even thought of." And the more that you see people from all these different walks of life with various disabilities, the more you see, to your point, those unique qualities and those unique flavors that can be brought to a role that casting may have never thought of to begin with, but they're never going to know if we don't get that visibility out there. I guess I'm just a very big fan of the idea of visibility, and the more that we can get ourselves out there, whether that's creating our own content, doing the Easter Seals Disability Film Challenge, making movies like Daruma or other disability-centered films with authenticity, the more visibility we're going to have, the more people are hopefully going to be able to see that, and at the very least, have their thinking stimulated to think, "Oh, I wonder what other directions we could go with stories now."

John W. Lawson
That's really true. I've been with my manager now for close to 20 years, and, twenty years ago, he said, "I can certainly..." He gets all the same breakdowns as an agent. At the time, I didn't have an agent. And he goes, "You know, I can submit you for amputee roles when they come up, but I think you're a great actor." He had seen me in something and said, "I can just submit you for anything that's your age and character." And just four weeks ago, five weeks ago, he submitted me for a role. It's a co-star role in the Amazon TV show, Fallout. And it wasn't an amputee role. It was just for a guy my age. I auditioned as an amputee, and I got the role. It wasn't written for an amputee. It was just written for an old guy. So that's what I tell him, just submit me for the old creepy guy, and I can get the role. So, and that's what he's done. And now I've done three more auditions. Two of them were non-disability-specific, and one was. I'm waiting to hear back from two of those, hopefully this week. So one was amputee-specific for an arm amputee, and one was not. So I'm waiting to hear back on both of those. But he has always submitted me for just my character type and age range.

Tobias Forrest
I like that you said, "Old creepy guy" is authentic casting for you.

John W. Lawson
It is. It's authentic casting for me.

Tobias Forrest
That's inclusive right there.

Alex Howard
That's season 2 of Fallout?

John W. Lawson
Yeah, season 2.

Alex Howard
That's awesome. Congratulations.

John W. Lawson
I can't disclose anything because of an NDA, but I'm in episode 7. I can tell you that.

Tobias Forrest
You don't want to fall out from saying the wrong thing.

John W. Lawson
Exactly.

Alex Howard
We also wanted to ask you guys, on the set of Daruma, were there people behind the scenes and stuff with disabilities as well, or was it just you two?

John W. Lawson
No, we had some people with disabilities as well in the crew. We had some guy in costuming. I can't remember now. It's been a while. But we shot this during COVID.

Alex Howard
Oh, wow.

John W. Lawson
Yeah, we were all wearing masks and face shields and being COVID-tested every day. It was quite the experience. But yes, there were also, I think there was another award that the film got because 50% of the crew was female. I've forgotten all the different awards that have been won. But yeah, there were also people with disabilities behind the camera as well.

Lee Pugsley
That's great. Once again, one of the things that I always try to encourage people on both sides, whether fully abled or disabled, is integrate cast and crews together so that way that people that are fully abled have the experience of working with people that have disabilities to see just the unique giftings and skill sets that they can bring to the table. So that way it's no longer like, "Oh, we're afraid of this," or "We don't know how to interact with people with disabilities on a set." But it's like, how are you going to learn unless you bring people on the crews and in front of the camera that have disabilities that you can work with and find that common bond and just realized, at the end of the day, we're all just humans working on creating some good art, at least that's the goal.

John W. Lawson
Exactly. And that applies also to just the average person on the street. Michelle Obama, the former first lady, had a really cool quote that I remember. She said, "For so many people, television and movies may be the only way they understand people who aren't like them." And that goes across race, age, disability, and everything else. That's how we learn about other people is by that entertainment, by that product that we bring into our house that we allow into our living room that we watch every day. So not just on set, but as you said, in front of the camera, that we learn the same thing. So I think that's just an important point, Lee.

Tobias Forrest
Yeah, I think, I mean, you guys, the great part is you get it. Sometimes it requires a little bit of explanation, but the good part is that with entertainment, films like Daruma, at the very least, what we can do is create conversations, and those conversations, hopefully about inclusion, disability, all the above. But I think for John and I, at the very least, what we hope is that a father and a daughter can go to this movie or watch this movie and be able to have a conversation that maybe they haven't had for an entire lifetime and repair relationships. That's on the personal level. But on the profound level is that hopefully we can create a conversation in society about, "Hey, job opportunities for people with disabilities is disparaging low in this entertainment industry." And, "Hey, the stories that we're being told are not authentic stories and are being manipulative with the use of disability. There's just such a broad broad spectrum of conversations that can be created through entertainment industry and through film and media. And hopefully, that is what educates and inspires people to make some changes.

John W. Lawson
The common tropes that we've seen since the beginning. Daruma is the first film in the history of US filmmaking where both of the lead characters have been authentically cast with disabilities, but the film is not about disability at all. And historically, we've seen films and television shows with what's been labeled as the inspirational super crip. You know, the trope where the person with disability is a heroic figure that overcomes their disability in extraordinary ways. And they intend to be inspiring. "Oh, look, that guy with no hands can fly an airplane." Or either it's the tragic victim, the trope where the character with disabilities is portrayed as someone in life, primarily defined by suffering or loss, such as in Me Before You. And then my favorite is the disabled villain. And it's often seen in television where this is where the character's disability is with villainy, like a pirate with a hook or missing a leg or something about his disability.

Alex Howard
James Bond. 

Tobias Forrest
Don't say Darth Vader. Don't you dare say, Darth Vader.

John W. Lawson
Well, he was an amputee.

Tobias Forrest
Powerful guy, most powerful guy in the universe..

John W. Lawson
Yeah. All he was doing was trying to find his son. It's a father-son story.

Tobias Forrest
I always say Star Wars is about an amputee father trying to get his amputee son into the family business.

So that's where Daruma's been so groundbreaking. And I probably shouldn't say this, but it was a little discouraging to me to be at the Easter Seals Disability Film Challenge Award Show, where there's a large group of disabled people with so many different disabilities. I had two people come up to me and tell me they hadn't seen the film yet. And I go, "Well, just go to Amazon, go to Apple, you can watch it. It's right there." "Oh, I've been wanting to see it, and I just haven't yet." It was just a little disheartening in a way for a few moments that, here we have this disability community out there beating the drum for authentic representation. We create a product for that, but yet the people in the disability community, now this is just a small number, and it wasn't some big number of people, but still have not seen the film.

Lee Pugsley
I mean, you bring up a very good point with that, too, is that being part of the disabled community, if we want to see more content being made in authentic ways, then we also have to be the ones, first of all, that champion it and support it and spread the word about it, too. Because if we can't even do that within our own community, how can we expect people outside our community to take interest in it as well?

Tobias Forrest
Well, thank you guys for doing that today because that's exactly what you're... You're walking your talk, Lee, by sharing this with your community and John and I's experience. And so I can't thank you and Alex enough for putting this together and having us here.

John W. Lawson
Yeah, I appreciate it.

Lee Pugsley
Yeah, it's been our pleasure to have you guys on the show. And once again, congratulations on this accomplishment because it is so significant that Daruma was made and just the authenticity with two leads being authentically cast with disabilities. That's huge. And hopefully, like you said, it's a blueprint to take disability representation further. People will see this and see the endless possibilities and the creative way stories can be told that are still very human and very affecting. Once again, congratulations to you guys on that. We really appreciate you taking the time to chat with us today.

Tobias Forrest
Yeah, thank you so much.

Alex Howard
Yeah, congratulations on all this.

John W. Lawson
It was definitely our pleasure, and I appreciate it a lot. Thank you so much for having us.

Alex Howard
Yeah, congratulations on all the success. I just wanted to give you guys an opportunity. Obviously, we want to promote Daruma, but do you guys have any other projects you'd like to promote that you're working on or coming out soon?

John W. Lawson
I don't. As we've talked at the beginning of the podcast, less than 2% of the characters in film and television have a disability. I've been very fortunate. I think it's been the last five weeks, I've had four auditions. That is unreal. But like I said, two of those were disability-specific and the other two were not. So hopefully, I hear something back here this week, and maybe I'll have something to talk about later.

Alex Howard
But you got Fallout Season 2 Episode 7?

John W. Lawson
Yes, I do have Fallout Season 2, Episode 7. So you can watch for me when that comes out on Amazon, whenever that is. They did wrap production a couple of weeks ago, so it should be out in this fall, I presume.

Tobias Forrest
Yeah, and my most recent thing was a stint on FBI Most Wanted. I don't want to spoiler alert, but something important finally got to happen in my life as an actor, something we all want to do. Then I've been doing some voiceover jobs. I have a guest-starring spot on season 2 for Universal Basic Guys. Then I have a children's animation show that I've been very fortunate to do that hopefully will be coming out sometime this year. But you never know with animation, you just do the thing and see if it pops into the world. But yeah, John and I, we just hang on, we catch the waves of opportunity, enjoy the ride, learn as much as we can, paddle back out and put in the work.

Lee Pugsley
Great perspective to have. And then if people wanted to follow you guys on social media, can they I find you there?

John W. Lawson
Yeah, CreepyOldGuy.com. No, I'm on Instagram @jwlawson57. Hard to believe there were 56 other ones. But jwlawson57, you can find me on Instagram. I'm not on the X thing, but I am on whatever the other one is. I can't even think of the name of it. I do social media, but most of it's on Instagram, so you can find me there.

Tobias Forrest
I think the most important thing is to IMDb, John and myself, get the star meter up. But I'm on Instagram, TobiasEasyforrest, E-A-S-Y. That's my middle name. It's not really my description.

John W. Lawson
I bet if we were around a bunch of women, you wouldn't say that.

Tobias Forrest
No, but I'm also friends with John, so find him and then find me through him because that's how Daruma did it.

John W. Lawson
I have to say that I won the best actor at Slamdance, and I said it there as well, that, "Toby always showed up with his best because that brought out the best in me." And I was so fortunate to get to work with my best friend, but to work with such an amazing actor made me work harder to make sure that we both be giving our best. And Toby always showed up with his best, and that was to me was amazing.

Tobias Forrest
John, your money is in the mail. Don't worry.

John W. Lawson
I need that. I've only had one job. So, yeah, thanks. I'll stop by and pick it up. We only live about a mile and a half from each other.

Tobias Forrest
We'll deal at the next reading.

John W. Lawson
Yeah.

Alex Howard
So you guys are in Los Angeles?

Tobias Forrest
I noticed you guys are the same way, your'e buddies. So thanks for having us on your show where the four of us can represent.

Lee Pugsley
Absolutely. And for those listeners out there, you should check out Daruma. You can get it on Google Play, YouTube, Amazon, Apple. And once again, you can download the All4Access app and get audio description with it as well. But really enjoyable, really heartwarming, just really authentic as well. So check out Daruma. And if you guys have any questions for me or Alex on anything we discussed today, you can reach us at DarkRoomFilmCast@gmail. Com. Once again, that's DarkRoomFilmCast@gmail.com. And you can also follow us on YouTube and Instagram as well.

Alex Howard
And we'd also like to thank Matt Lauterbach at All Senses Go for making transcripts of this episode possible, as well as BlindCAN for helping out with editing.

Lee Pugsley
And thank you so much for listening today, and we will see you here next time on The Dark Room.

Alex Howard
Take care, guys.