Ep. 46: Close Up With Ariel Baska, Horror Activist & Disabled Filmmaker

Alex and Lee chat with Ariel Baska, disabled film maker and horror activist, about the Access: Horror Film Festival happening in New York on August 1. In our discussion, Ariel chronicles their journey with disability, getting the horror film festival off the ground, and what attendees can expect this year at the Access: Horror event.

Sign up to attend the Access: Horror Film Festival by July 29 here:
Https://www.accesshorror.com

Follow Ariel Baska on Instagram at @justaskabaska and @accesshorror and check out their podcast RIDE THE OMNIBUS here:

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/ride-the-omnibus/id1515065987

If you have any questions or comments for us, please e-mail darkroomfilmcast@gmail.com and be sure to follow us on Instagram and subscribe on YouTube: @darkroomfilmcast.

Check out the Blind Can Film Festival hosted by our sponsor, Ben Fox:
https://www.blindcan.com

Find transcripts of our episodes on our hosting site, Buzzsprout!
Subscribe to our YouTube Channel!
Support us on Patreon!
Follow us on Instagram!
Find us on Facebook!

Transcript

Lee Pugsley
Happy July, everyone, and welcome back to another episode of The Dark Room, where two blind cinephiles illuminate the sighted. I'm Lee Pugsley.

Alex Howard
I'm Alex Howard.

Lee Pugsley
And this is a podcast hosted by two legally blind guides for film lovers of all abilities. And today we have a really exciting episode with a very special guest. Alex, I'll pass it over to you.

Alex Howard
Great. Thanks, Lee. And I want to wish everyone a happy Disability Pride Month. Today we I have Ariel Baska. They are the Festival Director of Access:Horror and a horror activist. So do you want to tell us about your unique and awesome film festival? I attended a few years ago, and I love that the films have a focus on disability not only behind the camera, but in theme. And then also they are accessible with audio description and captions.

Ariel Baska
Yeah. So what I love about Access:Horror, very specifically, is that it's a place to celebrate disability and genre. I think one of the things that a lot of people forget is that disability is literally built on the backs of disabled people. Films like Frankenstein and Dracula are very much rooted in disability in terms of ideas and the way that they've been carried forward as ideas, again, has always gone back to disability when you look at creatures, when you look at monsters. And one of the things that for a lot of disabled people has always been the problem is that there are these typical tropes that you fall into when it's non-disabled people behind the camera. But when you give a disabled person a camera to create a lens on horror, it becomes a very different thing from inspiration porn. You can't have inspiration porn in horror. So that's my pitch. That's why everyone should love horror movies.

Alex Howard
I am right there with you. I saw Final Destination: Bloodlines for my second time last night.

Ariel Baska
Nice.

Alex Howard
And I don't know why. It gives me so much joy. I went in kind of in a weird mood, and I came out so happy. And I'm like, this is so weirdly therapeutic.

Lee Pugsley
And what I love about the horror genre as it pertains to disability is that it opens up the doors for so many creative ways of storytelling. And let's be honest, when you bring disability representation to the table in any form of storytelling, there's just so many different options on the table, but specifically with horror. There's so many fun tropes you can play around with when you have authentic representation there that I think really bring a lot of richness and freshness to the storytelling and the filmmaking.

Ariel Baska
Yeah, absolutely. And I think it's overlooked in so many ways, the richness of disability culture and what that brings to storytelling as a whole. A lot of times, filmmakers and producers tend to forget about the crip lens and the fact that we bring our own way of looking at the world that prioritizes flexibility and accessibility in ways that the rest of the world doesn't necessarily see the same things we do. And I think it's so important to have horror that reflects not only what the world really looks like, but how we really see the world.

Lee Pugsley
I love that. It also highlights the resourcefulness that we as disabled creatives and individuals have to offer. I feel like in horror, so much of the time you have people that are trapped in a room or they're in this dire situation. And so it's like they have to be very resourceful with it. And just by nature, to your point, Ariel, we are adaptable and we are flexible. I think that we can definitely bring that to the table in a really fun and unique way when it comes to horror.

Alex Howard
Can you tell us your history and how you got involved in all of that?

Ariel Baska
Absolutely. So I will tell you first off, I was born with disabilities, but did not recognize it for a very long time because... A little bit of frank talk here. I was born with a rare disease that didn't have a name. It didn't exist in any medical journals or manuals or anything. It wasn't even discovered to be a thing until I was in my 20s, and I wasn't diagnosed with it personally until my 30s. But I was born with this rare disease that covered the right half of my face. And so I had red and purple marks extending from my scalp to my gums to my neck. And it left me blind in one eye because of the swelling around my face. And it left my right ear mostly deaf. And as a result, I grew up with parents who were both involved in gifted education, and they were very adamant that I never say the word special education or disability to anyone because they were certain I was going to be branded as something I wasn't because they recognized that I was a gifted child. And there's a lot I missed out on because of that.

I had no sense of disability community for most of my growing up years. I've had a number of different kinds of conditions that have sprouted up along the way. But being on the DeafBlind spectrum as I am, I feel like I have a different sense of the world than other people do. I literally see everything completely differently. I'm constantly looking for shades of depth that I can't actually see in person on screen. And I'm always looking as a filmmaker at the world in completely wild and wonderful ways because of my neurological disabilities as well. I have considerable neurological impairments. I've had brain surgery twice. I have a shunt that keeps me moving. And it's a thing that I think people lose sight of who have not had this weird sort of 'rolling with the punches' experience of disability, where you have to learn how navigate the world completely anew... In my case, literally every year, I have a new disability. So in my 40-some years on this Earth, every single year brings new health challenges, brings new disabilities. So I'm not going to bore everyone with everything. But I will say that in 2020, in the pandemic, I suddenly found community in a way that I hadn't before.

The availability of online community through Zoom in the pandemic was a godsend for me. I started my podcast, Ride the Omnibus, and began connecting with other disability advocates. And I realized that I had been a disability advocate all along for my students. I was a Latin teacher for 15 years, and I was constantly advocating for my students, but not advocating for myself. And I realized, "Oh, wait, this is community I deserve to be a part of. I deserve to feel the warm embrace of community. And this is the thing not just for me to fight for other people. I'm fighting for myself and my place to be."

Alex Howard
I definitely identify with a lot of what you said. I mean, I also have a rare neurological condition that wasn't diagnosed till I was about 25, 23, something like that. And I mean, I'm also obviously visually impaired. You and I met in RespectAbility, right? Were we in the same lab cohort in 2020?

Ariel Baska
We were not. I was in the 2022 lab cohort.

Alex Howard
Okay. But we met in the organization. And I also found my disability community in 2020 when I did RespectAbility.

Ariel Baska
Wow.

Alex Howard
So that is all really awesome.

Ariel Baska
Yeah. I think 2020 was a linchpin year for a lot of people because everything went online and you had more opportunity to meet the people, to meet your people.

Lee Pugsley
Definitely. And you also had more time to meet people from different communities and to really think about what is the community that I want to be a part of and how do I want to go about doing that and connecting with other people. And I think-- You know, there were a lot of difficult things about the pandemic, but like you said, there were certain things about it that I think were a true gift to all of us in that way.

Alex Howard
I think we wanted to ask you because starting a film festival sounds so daunting. And like so much work. So how did you come up with the idea to do this and then decide, I'm going to do it? And what were the steps that you took to actually accomplish that?

Ariel Baska
Yeah. So like all my ideas, if I had actually known how much work it would be to do it, I probably wouldn't do it going back in time. But it was so incredibly important to me at the time when I started it in 2023. I felt like I had the fire of rage in my belly from going on the festival circuit with my first short film, Our First Priority. Our First Priority was a film about medical gaslighting, and it was a horror short that played around the world, 27 different festivals. But I noticed as I was going around to festivals, most of them were not accessible. Most of them didn't feature any kind of intersectionality, and most of them had no way to reach out to people to ask for accommodations if you needed anything. And I was very determined that this needed to change. And I looked around and I saw, "Oh, there are these great disability film festivals," but they all seem very concerned with, I hate to say it, but kind of mainstream fair for the most part. They didn't seem that interested in genre. Everybody I talked to at Superfest and ReelAbilities in their programming would say, "Oh, yeah, we like horror movies." But then when you actually got talking at length, they weren't as fond of them.

In the last few years, some of that has changed. That attitude has changed. And we are actually partnering with Superfest Disability Film Festival and the San Francisco Disability Cultural Center, which is wonderful. But at the time, I was so determined that we needed to carve out a space where we could feel safe to tell stories that are problematic and that are different from the mainstream and show us in not necessarily a perfect light all the time. And that was really important to me to have a place for the messiness and the trauma and all the ugly parts of life laid bare.

Lee Pugsley
I really like what you said about just showing the messiness of disability in terms of just seeing us as just people, that we have traumas, we have our own shortcomings as well. We obviously have gifts and talents and skills to offer as well. But just like anyone else and normalizing that narrative, taking it away from just the inspirational, overcoming adversity sort of stories. And then I know that we touched on this a little bit earlier, but when you were coming up with the vision for this film festival, horror was always the genre that you knew this was going to be? Like, it was going to be a genre film festival for horror?

Ariel Baska
Oh, absolutely. Absolutely, 100 %. The only question I had was if it would be strong enough to become Access:other genres. So maybe one year have Access:Fantasy or Access:whatever. If it ever got to be big enough, that was the dream that it would have spin off potential. And I love that idea, but I always wanted it to be within genre, within the fantastic.

Alex Howard
So in planning your film festival, what was the most unexpected challenge that you faced that you were like, "Whoa, I didn't expect this to be so hard?"

Ariel Baska
Sponsorships. It was really massively hard to get money and to get sponsorships that would cover the entire cost of the festival, particularly staffing. A lot of people were happy to give grants related to accessibility, but it was really, really hard to find funding that would cover staffing. And staffing a film festival is no joke. It's very, very hard work. If you estimate the number of unpaid hours I've put into this festival between 2023 and 2025, it's massive. It's absolutely massive. And... You do it, though, because it's a labor of love, and it's really important to me and to the world that it be out there. I hope I don't sound too puffed up when I say that, but it's really important to me that this work exists and that I'm able to highlight disabled creators who are doing amazing work while also creating a space for community to come together.

Alex Howard
What are the requirements to be accepted into your festival? Is it disabled filmmakers or is it disability theme? What are the requirements?

Ariel Baska
Our requirements are mostly kind of loose. It can be a disability story, but there has to be some form of authentic representation, either in front of the camera or behind the camera. It doesn't have to be about disability. It doesn't have to be anything except really good genre fair. For the most part, we're looking for messaging that doesn't say that disability is the horror. We're looking for messaging that's more diving into what disability is or talking about ableism as the horror. And so when we're looking at films, we're more looking for, "Is this a perspective we've never seen before? And does it fit with the overall vision of what we're crafting?"

Alex Howard
To explain that a little better for people who might be unsure, your short film, I remember it played at the festival in 2023, right? I think I saw it there. Is that correct?

Ariel Baska
At Superfest?

Alex Howard
No, at...

Ariel Baska
Oh, at Access:Horror. Yes, it did.

Alex Howard
Can you explain a little bit more about your short film? Because I think that perfectly encapsulates what you're talking about in terms of something we've never seen before. Because I remember I really identified with that short specifically because it was about the medical side of things, because I was undiagnosed for so long, too. So your short really spoke to me.

Ariel Baska
Yeah. So my short film was very much rooted in my experience as a child who was undiagnosed in terms of anything that was wrong with me. Essentially what I did was I had a child go to the doctor's office and essentially not be believed by the doctor, but the child has a sort of guardian angel character who sends the doctor to hell for not taking care of her as a patient. And for me, that was so tremendously cathartic to be able to craft a vision of hell where doctors could go if they chose not to listen. And that was so important to me. But that's the kind of thing I mean when I talk about making ableism the horror that it is, because in the film, the most frightening thing is not the girl's disabilities. It's the way the doctor is treating her.

Alex Howard
And then can you tell us a little bit about this year's festival? Because I know we're celebrating Disability Pride Month, but we're also promoting the festival starts in August. So what is the deadline for people who want to register for it? And then what can they expect at this year's fest?

Ariel Baska
Absolutely. So July 29th is the deadline to register and to let us know if you're coming. It's really going to be an incredible evening. We've got some amazing filmmakers coming. We've also got Sharai Bohannon and Zero Gravity of Blerdy Massacre podcast, doing a live podcast recording, along with an award ceremony and a silent auction in partnership with the George A. Romero Foundation. And we've got the award ceremony presided over by Phil Nobile Jr. of Fangoria. He's the Editor-in-Chief of Fangoria magazine, the foremost horror magazine. And we're really excited to be able to share about 10 different shorts that we consider to be the greatest hits that we've found in two specific themes. So we have one shorts block that's called "Womb to Tomb," that's all about motherhood and identity. And we have one shorts block that's called "Flesh of My Flesh," all about body horror and experimental uncovering of maladies.

Alex Howard
And they all have audio description, correct?

Ariel Baska
And they all have audio description.

Alex Howard
That is amazing.

Ariel Baska
Done by the incredible Cheryl Green.

Alex Howard
Oh, that's great. Okay.

Ariel Baska
And her fabulous team.

Alex Howard
Is that the Collective? Audio Description Collective?

Ariel Baska
Yeah, the Social Audio Description Collective, remarkably for this project, brought in lots of outsiders. They brought in lots of outside help on this particular project, just looking for voices that were more authentic to the lived experience of characters. I'm so excited that we got such a wonderful team together to work on this.

Alex Howard
And so you said registration ends the 29th, and then when is the actual festival?

Ariel Baska
The actual festival is August 1st in New York City at DCTV Firehouse Cinema or online at AccessHorror.com. And basically, every aspect of the festival will be online for a short period of time for people who register for the virtual event. And then all of the films will be available on Shudder later in September.

Alex Howard
With audio description.

Ariel Baska
With audio description and open captioning.

Lee Pugsley
That's awesome. And out of curiosity then, when filmmakers submit their films for consideration, is it a requirement that they have audio description on their film already, or is that something that you guys take care of once the films have been selected?

Ariel Baska
This year, we decided to commit to making sure it was something that we provided for each of the films. We decided as a team that it made more sense because filmmaking budgets have only shrunk over the years, not gotten bigger. And while in an ideal world, we would like everyone to budget appropriately for accessibility, we all know for a fact that tends to be something that people think of later, or perhaps they're doing it themselves and not doing it the best it possibly could be done. And so what we chose to do this year was review everyone's work, whether you had captions or audio description or not, and just kind of scrub them up a little. Make the accessibility the best it possibly can be. Also educate the filmmakers on how they can make the process go smoother, really involving filmmakers in the process of the captioning and the audio description rather than doing it for them. I think it was really a wonderful thing that we were able to offer this here, thanks to the kind mentorship of StormMiguel Florez and Cheryl Green, who were willing to engage with our filmmakers in this way. But yeah, we always offer a screening fee if people have all of their accessibility ducks in a row. But if they don't, we're going to make sure it's as good as it can be.

Alex Howard
And that's awesome because then they can carry those assets to other festivals and beyond, right?

Ariel Baska
Exactly.

Lee Pugsley
And I love what you said, too, about the idea of educating filmmakers in the process. I've been doing the film festival circuit the last year with the short film that I have. And, you know, there is a lot of education that goes into educating on accessibility, whether filmmakers are aware of accessibility or not. But even the ones that are aware of accessibility don't always know how to go about it and how to go about it in the most productive ways. And there is definitely education that needs to be done. And I appreciate the fact that you and your team take the time to do that.

Ariel Baska
Yeah, I think it's so important, and it's one of those things that I don't think enough people really pay attention to.

Lee Pugsley
So I know that one of the most enriching things about the film festival experience is the way that film festivals bring community together and you're able to make new friends and find collaborators within the festival itself. How have you seen community be cultivated within the festival, Access:Horror, that you've been doing?

Ariel Baska
Well, within the 2023 version of the festival, it was mostly that people who were on the industry panels who were talking together and engaging with each other, a lot of different kinds of collaborations came up because of people meeting in that way. But for the most part, because it was online and we didn't have a lot of ways for community to engage, not enough happened, in my opinion, on that score. And so that's why I'm really excited to have an in-person component and also have a little bit of community time where folks can engage with each other rather than just with the filmmakers. And I think that'll be really helpful.

Alex Howard
I think that's so cool because horror is my favorite genre, but I do think horror fans are so nice.

Ariel Baska
It's true.

Alex Howard
It's such a brutal genre. But I don't know. It's like, oh, I'm watching this brutal thing or this gross thing. But horror fans are such nice people. It's a great community.

Ariel Baska
It is.

Lee Pugsley
And as you look forward, I know that you talked about cultivating more community, creating those in-person opportunities for community to happen within the festival. Is there anything else that you'd like to see for your long-term vision that in five years, this is where I'd love the festival to be, or this is my vision for the future?

Ariel Baska
I mean, in five years, if all goes according to plan, there will be lots of other offshoots related to Access:Horror. My biggest plans right now are the fact that we are doing an event in Winchester, Virginia, in September at the Alamo Draft House there. And as a part of their Lost Weekend Film Festival, all of the Access:Horror shorts will be playing there. And then we're also going to have all of the Access:Horror shorts playing in San Francisco on October 30th with the San Francisco Disability Cultural Center. So I think that's great, but I really want it to go global. I'm not satisfied with bi-coastal domination. I want the world. So that's what I'm rooting for. So hopefully in five years, it goes international.

Alex Howard
That would be amazing. And I think that's a big chunk of the horror community that's missing is the international horror. I mean, Titane. There are so many-- Oh, The Ugly Stepsister. There's so many foreign language horror movies I would love to watch, but I cannot because they are not accessible. So that would be awesome if you guys went international and was able to make some awesome-- Because there are a bunch of countries with different horror tendencies and ways that they do things. So that would be awesome if you could incorporate that.

Ariel Baska
I would love to. I mean, just to be clear, Access:Horror in 2023 and in 2025 is technically international. We do have horror shorts that are from other countries, specifically Canada and the UK and Ireland. I also feel, though, that it's so important to incorporate more than just English speakers. We have a couple with subtitles from other countries, but for the most part, it's not as international as I would like, and I'm hoping we can broaden our horizons.

Alex Howard
That's awesome.

Lee Pugsley
And it's really cool that you guys are doing the Alamo Draft House screening in Virginia and then with the San Francisco screening as well, because I think that visibility is so key in terms of, I was talking about just the fact of having the disability community be a presence in all aspects of life, whether that's the business world, whether that's the film world, whether that's the fashion world, just all over the place, like the more that you're able to get these screenings and these films are able to be seen, the more it's going to help people rethink perspectives and open their eyes to new perspectives and to see the power of disability as well. So, yeah, I hope that as the years go by, that you'll just be able to get more and more screenings at different places, and the festival will only continue to grow so that visibility gets more widespread.

Ariel Baska
Thank you.

Alex Howard
So a couple of questions for you. I guess the first question is, some people aren't a huge fan of the horror genre, but if they want to get started in horror, what are some recommendations of starter films you can make that are fully accessible?

Ariel Baska
Okay. Well, speaking of fully accessible, I would highly recommend something like A Quiet Place as a starter franchise to think about. Not only because it specifically highlights disability in a really meaningful way, and it makes it clear that disabled people are not going to be left behind in the Apocalypse. I love that about it. But also, the studio did provide--since ASL is a major part of the story, a Deaf character is very much centered within it--the studio did a good job with both audio description and captioning on this one, and I highly, highly recommend it.

Alex Howard
Do you use AD on everything you watch?

Ariel Baska
I do. Okay. I do. Not everything I watch, but I would say about-

Alex Howard
You prefer it.

Ariel Baska
About maybe a third of the time. Because for me, when I'm having migraines, I can't look at screens.

Alex Howard
I'm the same way.

Ariel Baska
And if I have screen sensitivity, forget it. It's not happening.

Lee Pugsley
I love that you brought up A Quiet Place. I think that's a really good example.

Alex Howard
Oh, for sure. A Quiet Place was one of my favorite films the year it came out.

Ariel Baska
Yeah. I think everything in the series has been very strong, too.

Lee Pugsley
Yeah.

Alex Howard
A Quiet Place 2, I think, really delves more into the disability also.

Ariel Baska
Yes, yes. And Quiet Place: Day One as well.

Alex Howard
The whole franchise is great in terms of definitely starter horror for disability, but just they're great in general, too. They're awesome movies, all of them.

Ariel Baska
They are. And I think they're a really great gateway drug to get you hooked on horror in a lot of ways, because it's very deep character building and world building as well, going on in that franchise.

Alex Howard
And what are some of your personal favorite horror movies? Top three.

Ariel Baska
Oh, my God. Really? Top three? I have to name a top three. Ugh. This is so hard. Well, okay. So A Nightmare Nightmare on Elm Street is literally the first one I ever saw, so I don't have a choice. I got to go with Freddie first. A Nightmare on Elm Street is still, to my mind, the absolute pinnacle of success when it comes to horror movies. When I think about favorite recent horror movies, Us is certainly up there. I think what Jordan Peele is doing in Us and Nope and Get Out is just absolutely phenomenal. And I've been blown away by also what Nia DaCosta did with the Candyman remake. I thought that was out of this world. And the original Candyman was so iconic for me as someone from Chicago. When I first saw it, it really resonated very deeply with me. But to see what Nia DaCosta did, again, to center the violence in a way that makes sense in terms of the oppression and putting the oppression where it belongs, it really, really was so powerful for me. And I, you know I can't say enough great things about what she's doing.

Alex Howard
That's awesome. And I think most of the Nightmare on Elm Street movies have AD on Amazon Prime. I don't think the first one does, but I think starting with the third one, they do. And that's my favorite horror franchise ever. I love every movie. And he's not ableist, which is great because he goes after a Deaf kid.

Ariel Baska
Exactly. Yeah. He goes after Deaf kids just as much as he goes after everyone. He's got the torture wheelchair. He's got all the things. And I love it.

Alex Howard
And Jordan Peele, all of his movies are also accessible, audio-described. Get Out, I would say, is another great starter horror movie. I mean, I did a list of the top 50 movies of last decade, and Get Out was my number one.

Ariel Baska
Gotcha. How about you, Lee? What are your favorite horror movies?

Lee Pugsley
That's a great question. I would say that among my favorite horror movies, would be Get Out is definitely up there, as well as earlier Shyamalan. And earlier, M. Night Shyamalan movies I really liked. I don't know if The Sixth Sense could be classified as full on horror. It's more psychological thriller. But The Six Sense and Signs might fit into that category for me. And then let me see what else. It's interesting because I didn't grow up with horror, so I haven't seen a lot of the earlier horror films that have been hailed with some of the greats. I still have a lot of catch-up work to do in the horror genre. I keep up with it now. Oh, Hereditary would also be up there as well.

Ariel Baska
Oh, yeah.

Alex Howard
Yup.

Lee Pugsley
Those are some of them that come to mind right now.

Alex Howard
Yeah, yeah. And It Follows for me as well as one of my favorites. Great. So where can people find you? You want to promote your podcast?

Ariel Baska
Absolutely. You can find me online on Instagram @JustAskABaska. I'm teaching you how to spell my last name. So JustAskaBaska. And I am also on @AccessHorror on Instagram, Blue Sky. You can also find me on LinkedIn. I'm all over the interwebs, so you can find me somewhere.

Alex Howard
Great. And then what's your podcast called?

Ariel Baska
My podcast is Ride the Omnibus. We have been on hiatus for a while, but we will be returning after Access:Horror. I had to take a break in the midst of the madness.

Alex Howard
Okay, great. And can you spell that?

Ariel Baska
Sure. Ride the Omnibus. R-i-d-e, the, o-m-n-i-b-u-s.

Alex Howard
Great.

Ariel Baska
It's from Latin. "For everyone, by everyone, with everyone."

Alex Howard
Okay, great. And we will link all of that below. We will also link the registration for Access:Horror and all that good stuff. And thank you so much for being on the show and promoting your accessible film festival. This is so awesome.

Ariel Baska
Thank you so much, Lee and Alex. I really appreciate it.

Lee Pugsley
This has been such a joy to have you on the show, Ariel, and we really appreciate the the work you're doing. You're doing so many wonderful things, and we love your heart and your passion for accessibility for the disabled community and for storytelling in general, and bringing all of these things together in such a very rich and beautiful way. So thank you for what you're doing, and we are going to be supporting you as you continue as well.

Ariel Baska
Well, thank you so much. That means a lot.

Alex Howard
We'd like to thank Matt Lauterbach and All Senses Go for making captions on this and every episode of The Dark Room.

Lee Pugsley
And if you have any questions for me and Alex about anything that was discussed here with Ariel today, you can reach us at DarkRoomFilmCast@gmail.com. Once again, that's DarkRoomFilmCast@gmail.com. And be sure to follow us on Instagram and subscribe to our YouTube channel @DarkRoomFilmCast.

Alex Howard
We'd also like to thank BlindCAN for helping with editing on this episode.

Lee Pugsley
And thank you guys so much for listening. We will see you back here next time on The Dark Room.

Alex Howard
Take care, guys.