Ep. 47: Behind the AD: The Penguin

In this episode, we’re joined by Dakota Green and Ren Leech, the audio description writer and narrator, respectively, for the Emmy-nominated HBO series THE PENGUIN. They share their creative process behind crafting AD for the dark, gritty Gotham world and discuss the power of inclusive storytelling through an authentically disabled AD team. Tune in for a behind-the-scenes look at making The Penguin accessible to blind and low-vision audiences.

Check out the Audio Description Project here:
https://adp.acb.org

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Transcript

Lee Pugsley
Happy Emmy season, everyone, and welcome back to another episode of The Dark Room, where two blind cinephiles illuminate the sighted. I'm Lee Pugsley.

Alex Howard
I'm Alex Howard.

Lee Pugsley
And this is a podcast hosted by two legally blind guys for film lovers of all abilities. And today, we have such an exciting episode for you guys that me and Alex have been looking forward to for a very long time, and now it's finally here. Alex, I'll throw it over to you.

Alex Howard
Hey, guys. So, yeah, today we have some of the audio description team behind The Penguin. I want to give a little bit of an intro to the Penguin before we introduce our guests. I have a funny history with this show. I actually went to... They rereleased the Batman, which the Penguin is a spinoff of, I think it was about a year ago. And so I went to the theater to see the rerelease. And Christina, who has been on our show before, actually wrote the audio description for the Batman, was there. And she pulled me aside to say hi. And then I was like, "Oh, are you watching this?" And, "Oh, did you write this?" And she was like, "Yeah, I haven't watched it since I wrote it." So I got to watch The Batman with her and then talk to her after the movie, which was awesome. And actually at that screening, they showed a little preview of The Penguin. So obviously, I was excited for the show. And so the show comes along, and DC has not missed when it comes to pairing with HBO. They did Watchmen, they did Peacemaker, which both of those were better than-- I mean, I think Peacemaker was much better than I thought it would be. Watchmen was awesome. And then The Penguin comes along and you're like, "Okay, it's a spin off of the Batman. We'll see how it is." And The Penguin blew all my expectations away. It is a gangster show. It is not just a great genre show, not just a great comic book show. It is a great show. It is awesome. And there's not a lot of superhero stuff in it, which is perfect because it's HBO. It's very grounded. But like I said, it's a gangster show. It is outstanding. And the performances from Colin Farrell and Cristin Milioti are out of this world. I didn't know Cristin Milioti could act like she does in this show. So rightfully so, it garnered about 24 Emmy nominations last week when the nominations were announced. And it also was nominated for one People's Choice Award for audio description. So today we have the writer, Dakota Green, and the narrator, Ren Leach, on our show for audio description. Welcome, guys.

Dakota Green
Thanks for having us.

Ren Leach
Thanks for having us.

Lee Pugsley
Yeah, thank you guys so much for being here. Like I said, we've been waiting to talk to you guys for so long because the show is so excellent in all regards, specifically with the audio description. And we're excited to dive into the nuts and bolts of your process, of the impact that the show is having, and just how you approach the audio description for the show. But before we get into that, congratulations on being a part of a show that has 24 Emmy nominations and the American Council for the Blind Audio Description People's Choice Award nomination. How does it feel to be a part of a show that has such acclaim?

Ren Leach
I think it's fantastic. It's really incredible because the project came about, the idea from HBO, of increasing inclusion for the audio description of a tentpole series. And with them coming to IDC, IDC has a track record for working on inclusive projects with culturally appropriate and relevant voices for different projects. So when HBO had the idea of what they wanted to come up with, IDC was ready to go for it. So when I got the word from Eric Wickstrom at IDC that things were coming down and this is what it might be like, I was just thrilled to be a part of it because I know the quality of standard that HBO puts out. And like you mentioned earlier, Alex, the DC universe when paired with HBO is pretty substantial.

Alex Howard
And sorry, before Dakota goes, one second. I forgot to mention in our intro, Ren Leach is blind. There are also two other people on the audio description team that identify as at least legally blind. Thomas Reid, who did QC, and Tristan Snyder, who's been on our podcast before, did the mixing for the show. So they had several people who identify as blind involved in the audio description track for The Penguin.

Dakota Green
Yeah, we had the privilege of working with a very inclusive team. I myself am sighted, but we obviously have had several people on the project who are not, and we tried to be as inclusive as we can. But this show in particular was a lot of fun for me because I do really enjoy the comic book genre and the crime genre, which this almost like, obviously it's based on a comic book intellectual property, but it really does feel much more like 'gritty mobster drama.' And so it was really fun to work on. And I remember getting the call from Eric, who Ren mentioned when he said that I was going to get to work on it. And it was just... I was really looking forward to it from the word 'go,' and it was a fun time the whole way through.

Lee Pugsley
Yeah. Well, once again, a huge congratulations to both of you for the work you've done on the show. And I know that this has already been touched on, but just wanted to reiterate, it is really great because it does transcend just the comic book genre. So for people out there that may have the comic book fatigue or whatever it may be, or they're just not interested in the comic book world, I think that this show is one of the shows that can really have mass appeal, and did have mass appeal, obviously, to anyone that just likes the crime genre in general.

Ren Leach
Absolutely. Sorry. The comic book aspect is almost secondary to the plot of the... It's really a study of crime and evolution, and I think that it's really incredible. This is where we can also point out some of Dakota's script that really captured the production value and everything that comes along with such a high-quality project.

Alex Howard
I was just about to say, yeah, Dakota, you're writing, obviously, you're writing for the normal AD, but you also have to put in little things like the purple car, the little Gotham, Batman Easter eggs that is like, "Oh, that's cool." They're you know, nodding to that thing.

Dakota Green
Yeah, absolutely. We tried to catch as many of those Easter eggs as we could. I will credit Liz Gutman, who also helped with the QC. There were some that I caught, and then there were some that she caught as well, so that we could include as many as we could. Little things like there was a reference to the Peregrinator, who was a character in the comic books, and Burgess Jewelry, and he was the original actor for the Penguin in the Adam West version. So it was nice for them to give a little nod to him in the show. And yeah, there's just all sorts of interesting little Easter eggs and details. We just really wanted to make sure that we put attention on them since they really did their research in order to dive into the world and make it feel full.

Ren Leach
It's that type of writing that Dakota, and Liz helping him, were instrumental in creating something that reflected the production value and also the Easter eggs, the little insider tips and hints from inside the vast Batman universe. When you have a company and scriptwriters who take the time to find those details that most common fans would be able to absorb, and it offers not just an accessibility-- access to a fantastic story, but it also allows us to be part of the fandom, part of the knowledge beyond what is on the screen. That is also another form of inclusion that this script brought out.

Lee Pugsley
That's such a fantastic point. Alex and I have seen movies so many times or TV shows where we didn't have that experience, where everyone was talking about the different cameos from guest stars from past franchises and iterations, or talking about the little symbols or artifacts that tie into other movies or TV shows in the property. It's so nice that the show really did go the extra mile to make sure that those things were handled with care. Like you said, that does make it all the more inclusive. For those listeners out there that may not be aware, that's not always the norm. I think that there's progress that has been made. But this show really stands out for that reason, specifically as well as many other things. We definitely want to talk about process and all of that. But I guess before, let's just start out with, for both of you guys, what was your journey like to get into audio description? Let's start with you, Dakota, and then we can move over to Ren.

Dakota Green
Well, I have a background in writing, not professionally so much, but in college and also just on my own projects and everything. When IDC was putting together their initial audio description team, I had a friend who was working at the company at the time, and she was looking for people with writing experience who she could train and build out the team. She trained me on her own and then brought me in for an interview, and then we went through additional training to bring me up to speed. Obviously, it's been a process since then where we're always trying to grow and learn new things and find new ways to be more inclusive and find better ways to describe things that make more sense and all of that. So I think the beauty of it is that there's not really a point where you're like, :This is it. This is perfect, we've got it all the way down." You're always learning and trying to develop it and trying to hone your skills in whatever way you can and just keep getting better and better.

Lee Pugsley
And on that note, too, I think that, like you said, that there's never a point where it's like, "Oh, I know everything there is to know" because each project is so different, too. I think there's always something new to learn because there's something new that maybe you haven't encountered yet that you're like, "Oh, I have to tackle this aspect of description or this scene, which is not something I've done before," and then figuring out a way to do it effectively.

Dakota Green
Absolutely. Some people are like, "Oh, isn't this thing challenging?" I've worked on a lot of fantasy things or Sci-Fi things, and it's like, "How do you describe this alien battle? Or how do you describe this thing that doesn't exist in real life?" And I actually love those challenges because it really makes you think about, how would you describe that to someone who is not there to witness it or can't see the thing? And just always trying to figure out how to evoke that image in like, a relatable and understandable way.

Alex Howard
What other projects have you worked on, Dakota?

Dakota Green
Oh, gosh. I've worked on so many things. I would say, since we're already on HBO, I had the pleasure of working on all of Game of Thrones after that came out. Off the top of my head, I've worked on Avatar: The Last Airbender for Netflix, The Witcher, which I can't talk about the new season yet, but we've been working with them since the beginning of the show for that. Some of the things that I've worked on are things that I might not have found in my own time, but that turned into shows that I really liked. I really loved this German show, Dark, that was an early project for me, but I had the pleasure of working through all three seasons of that, and it turned into a show that I really loved, and that was a lot of fun to work on.

Alex Howard
In terms of Game of Thrones, a lot of people talk about the... Lee, what's the battle where it was all dark? Everyone was like, "Oh, it's too dark."

Dakota Green
The Battle of Winterfell, right?

Lee Pugsley
Yes. Yes.

Alex Howard
And everyone complains that it's too dark. My response, though, is like, "Did you watch it with the audio description? Because..."

Dakota Green
Right. We could definitely help you with that. It took a while to suss out all the details since it is rather dark in that one. But the beauty of my job is that I can take the extra time to make sure I get everything correct and make sure everyone knows what's happening.

Alex Howard
Yeah. What about you, Ren? How did you get involved with the audio description?

Ren Leach
I had been a voice actor as part of my past before I lost all my usable vision and had just started up the business, 2021. Eric saw me on Twitter, reached out, said, "Hey, I see that you're a V. O. person and you're visually impaired. Would you be interested in doing audio description?" My first question to him was, "What training do I need to get?" He said, "No, just do a sample and we'll try it out. If it's good, we'll go with it." So that project led into another one and another one. I've been lucky enough to work with IDC on several projects and really appreciate because that's the company that, much like many visually impaired creatives in the industry, we get our first break with IDC, it seems like. And ever since then, I'm just full-time working with IDC and other AD vendors on various projects. If there's a Home Improvement show on Discovery, chances are I've done episodes of that. There's movies and some series on HBO and Netflix. Ooh, I like Guillermo Del Toro's Cabinet of Curiosities. That was one of the early ones I did with Eric that we really enjoyed. Eric found me, and ever since then, all the other voiceover work has gone by the wayside because this is the connection. This is the purpose that I've been looking for because it takes a passion and a skill set of what I've got experience with and moves it forward in giving it back to people like me who like to I'd like to watch things.

Dakota Green
Just to jump on that. I'm glad that, Ren, that you mentioned Cabinet of Curiosities because that was another one that you and I have gotten to work on together, and that was a lot of fun to work on that one.

Ren Leach
Yeah, it was very descriptive. There were some very good scenes in that.

Alex Howard
It's so funny, Ren, because I was-- to do research for this because I watched The Penguin back in September, and I was like, "I need a refresher on how the AD was." And so I turned on the last episode this morning, and as soon as your voice came on, I was like, at first I was like, "Wait, whose voice is that? That's really good." And I was like, "Oh, wait, we're interviewing Ren today." But you have a great deep voice that's perfect for Cabinet of Curiosity, the Penguin. You know, it's a great genre voice.

Ren Leach
That's been one of the fun things, is being able to do projects in that genre because I do like the thrillers and the horrors and things like that. My wife doesn't, so I do. So it all fits together pretty nicely.

Alex Howard
And then if you could tell us, if you're comfortable, what's your blind journey like?

Ren Leach
Yeah. So I first got diagnosed at eight with RP. We were out at a family event, and it was nighttime, and everybody was looking at all the constellations, and I couldn't see anything. And it led to the discovery. And this is the late '70s, early '80s. Basically, all they could do is bring me in every year and test me and document how my eyesight was diminishing. So I basically spent most of my young adult life trying to blend in, trying to find those shortcuts that allow me to do things that everybody else does without displaying my disability to the point where it just became too much and finally had to move on from my prior careers and move forward with embracing this.

Lee Pugsley
Yeah, I think that your journey, Ren, is very relatable in terms of... I think that there can be that desire initially to just want to blend in and not to draw attention to the blindness or visual impairment, and then just realizing how to still cultivate the passions. All of that stuff I know is very relatable for both me and Alex and other people that we've talked to. But yeah, thank you so much for sharing that. Now, shifting over to more of the work that you guys did on The Penguin, specifically. I guess let's just start with what was your process for doing this show? As you guys were putting this together, whether the writing or the narration, there's a lot of different things to consider. There's tone, there's atmosphere, there's so much nuance to this show. What was your approach to audio description for this show and what things stuck out to you as you were in the process? Let's start with you, Dakota, in the writing phase of it, and then we'll move over to you, Ren, after that for the narration phase.

Dakota Green
I would say my process is generally, I like to watch as much. Obviously, with this show, it was serial. It was releasing weekly, so we only got to see the one episode at a time, and then we would work on the next one as they came out. With other shows, there's often a chance to, if they call back to something earlier, you can go back and see if there's some little bit of foreshadowing in there. So with this one, it made for an interesting challenge because you had to pay very specific attention to like, if there's this little detail that might be important later, but maybe this one is not as important. So it was interesting to suss out all of the little intricacies. And obviously, you don't want to overstep on anything. I don't want to overdescribe a scene when you want to let the music come through and you want to let people's emotions speak for themselves through their dialog and everything. So you don't want to be constantly saying, "Oh, she frowns," or, oh, talking about their expressions when their voices will do that for you. especially with those two actors. I mean, Cristin and Colin, their subtlety and nuance in their performances was just so fantastic that I wanted to do justice to that while also, obviously, being able to give as much description as I can and while also letting it breathe. And obviously, there are lots of little details that we felt were really important to put in there without being too overbearing with it.

Alex Howard
One of the details you were talking about that I really appreciate. An episode I was just rewatching, I think you said in reference to the Penguin's mom, like, "Her lip trembles." And that's something, obviously, we can't hear in the dialog, we can't see. And that conveys a lot of emotion. So that's really good that you put in those subtleties. How many times, like when you write, do you watch the whole episode through without pausing and then watch it again with notes? Or what's your process like of how many times you watch each one?

Dakota Green
So often our schedule will dictate how much of that we're able to do. With this one, I did get a little more leeway, obviously, because it's a very big project and we wanted to make sure that we do it justice. So generally, I will watch the episode ahead of time so that I can know if there's anything towards the end of the episode that I need to make sure if there's anything at the beginning that needs to be foreshadowing that or referencing that. Like, if there's some little visual detail that comes back later. And then when I am writing, then I will watch a couple of minutes ahead at a time and then go back and write through the description and then watch through that again while reading the description aloud so that I can hear, "Oh, that didn't sound right. It sounded better in my head. Okay, I'm going to change the wording of that." Or "Okay, that didn't all fit. Let's see where we can trim the fat a little bit and still get the point across and get all the important details out there." So yeah, it's definitely in its own way, like a repetitive process, but in order to make sure that we have everything as done as good as we can make it, hopefully it turns out well. And I guess in this case, it did.

Alex Howard
Do you watch it again when it comes out?

Dakota Green
I do, generally, yeah, as time allows. And sometimes I do a lot of QC work as well, not for my own projects, generally, because we like to have other people on it so that they can potentially catch something that someone else might have missed. But when it does eventually go to whatever streaming service or theatrical release that it does, I do try to watch as much of it as possible so that I can hear our voice actor's work, such as Ren and his fantastic work on this project, so that I can appreciate everything that everyone put into the project.

Lee Pugsley
This is a question that I don't think we've asked other audio description writers, but when you do watch the episodes back once they're released, do you find yourself being overly critical of your writing, where it's like, "Oh, I wish I would have done this instead of that," or "I guess I could have made this other choice." Or is it easy for you to just enjoy weigh it for what it is, then it just be like, "Yeah, I'm proud of the work that I did," or maybe it's a little bit of both?

Dakota Green
I'd say it's a little bit of both, yeah. I was skimming through some of the description for this show earlier today, and there were definitely a couple of lines where I was like, "This is not bad. I don't regret saying this this way," but I'm like, "Oh, this could have been... I could have done this little wording a little bit different, and it would have pulled that extra little bit of emotion or whatever out of the description." For the most part, generally, I just try to listen to it and appreciate it for the track that it is and not hold any regrets about it.

Lee Pugsley
Yeah, that's a good way to operate. Being in the creative field myself, of filmmaking, when I watch some of my work back, I try to do the same thing where I'm like, I can be proud of this work, and maybe there's a few things I can learn and take note of for the future. But I try to avoid that whole self-deprecating thing the whole time and just appreciating, like you said, appreciating the work that was done on all fronts as well. Then another thing I wanted to touch on is you said that with series, it's different than doing a movie because there are times where you have to do callbacks to previous episodes. For The Penguin, specifically, did you find that you had to reference episodes multiple times to see if there were any callbacks or tie-ins that you needed to reference in the current episode you were working on?

Dakota Green
There were definitely times that I had to look back and be like, "Oh, how did I reference that in an earlier episode so that it's consistent?" to make sure that if we called something by a certain name, that it was the same name later on so that anyone who was listening would be able to be like, "Okay, that's the thing that happened in episode 4, and now we're in episode 7, and they're bringing it back." Obviously, with this show and it being released weekly, to preface, our usual process is we often get a whole season of a show at the same time, and so we can record them all at once or in half-season batches or whatever. And so if we need to go back and change anything, we can. With this one, we're delivering on a weekly basis, so we just want to make sure that everything's in perfect right away. But yes, we definitely do go back and make sure that the terminology matches and any references that were made earlier that need to be called back to are referred to in the same way in all of that.

Lee Pugsley
Yeah, that totally makes sense. And then the one last thing I just wanted to comment on, I know that we had talked about this a little bit earlier, is just that striking the right balance between letting the performances, specifically like Colin and Cristin, letting those performances breathe and letting the actor's nuances come out through their performances. But then it's also, I can imagine, a tricky balance because there are a lot of expressions and subtleties to their facial expressions that can say a lot as well.

Alex Howard
The makeup, too.

Lee Pugsley
I think you did a real... And the makeup as well, yeah. I can only imagine how tricky of a balance that would be to decide, "When do I comment on the expression? When do I just let the voice do the work?" I don't know, if I was in your position, I feel like I'd be going back and forth on that constantly. But for you, did it become easier over time to strike that balance?

Dakota Green
Absolutely. I think that that's something that I've worked on a lot over my years of writing and just trying to make sure that you're not overstepping, but also getting those little subtle emotions and facial expressions and everything. This one did pose an interesting challenge because as I said earlier, Cristin and Colin, their acting is so subtle that there are some expressions that they have that we don't even really have words to describe. But you want to try and do that as as best you can. One that popped out to me earlier today as I was looking through it was, I remember writing that Penguin's lip curls into a smirk rather than just saying, "Oh, he smirks," including that little detail just to show that there's a slyness about it and almost like a sinister thing going on and just trying to convey everything you can without making it too wordy or too cumbersome in any of that.

Lee Pugsley
My compliments to you for the work you did with that. I mean, once again, I was so impressed by the choice of words that were used that really did convey character so well and also conveyed atmosphere, style, so many different things. Within your writing, you really captured the nuances and subtleties in such a fantastic, fantastic way.

Dakota Green
Thank you.

Lee Pugsley
Now, let's pass it over to you, Ren, and just curious to hear about your process for the narration for this show, specifically, but just your process in general with audio description narration.

Ren Leach
Sure. When I first get the script, I download the script, and then I format it for a Word document for my screen reader. Each of the timed blocks in the AD script, the event, sometimes, obviously, it's going to be shorter, longer, based on how much time it is. And with the one or multiple sentences or prompts within an event, there's only so much I can listen to on my screen reader at a time before then I repeat what I have heard in the lines to be recorded. So the first thing I do is I go through the script and I format it, matches my speaking patterns and whatnot so that I can record it in the booth and put it all together later. But after I get the script and format it, it gets you an idea, gives you a framework of the episode, and then I would go back and Eric and the team at IDC would also, because obviously a video of the episode is only going to do me half good, so they made it so that I could download an audio file of the episode. Then after I do the script, I would listen to the episode and see how the events in the script would hit in the episode with the emotions and the tone.

Ren Leach
Then when I would go back in, I would do one more in the booth where I would go through the whole script on just double checking that I have the tone how I want it and then start recording one event at a time. Then after I finish the hour or two of recording for all of that, then just go in and edit out all the nonsense from the take that isn't going to count. Then I just deliver the files in the duration for the event timing and send the collection of those off to IDC, and then they go through and they place those on the video timeline. Then also, and again, this goes to what Tristan is so skilled at, is making the ducking on the track so that it's coming in and not obscuring music or not obscuring dialog. Then there's going to be some pickups at some point. There's always pickups. There's either flubs that I have done, or maybe there's been a change in the script, or there's been an addition to the script. We'll come back, we'll add those in and send those back, and those get dropped in individually.

Ren Leach
Sometimes there will be an extra QC that will come back with like, "Ooh, here are some Easter eggs that we forgot to put in, or we want to add this in." And so there might be a second round of pickups, but it's a very compact time frame to work in. As Dakota referenced, the workflow timing for many projects and audio description can be fairly compressed. It's one of these where you're working as much as you can, as fast as you can, as quality as you can to get everything out in time so that everybody has a chance to make notes and we can make changes on it. But it was fantastic to listen to an episode after it would air. I am hyper critical. I do hear the syllables that I missed. There's a tone. Maybe I wanted to do a carrot up, carrot down for a sentence, and my carrot down didn't land how I wanted it to. But at some point, you have to just trust that you're giving the best that you can and hope that people think that it's good. I think Dakota and I are both pretty proud of the fact of the feedback that we've got. It's something special to be part of audio description, but it's really important and special to be part of audio description that is viewed as being good by the audience that it serves.

Alex Howard
I know you mentioned the time crunch. How long, basically before air, were you guys working on it or completing? Were you working on it the week of?

Ren Leach
Typically, we were working about a week ahead, if I had that right. We were turning in things by the end of the week, and they were due to be delivered by the beginning of the week that HBO would air the next week. I think that's how it went. So we were one...

Alex Howard
One episode ahead of everyone else.

Ren Leach
Yeah. So like when episode four was going to come out, I was really excited for that one to air because of just how awesome that episode was.

Dakota Green
Yeah. I think if I remember correctly, I would get them, I think, about two weeks ahead of time. So then I would have a few days to work on it myself, and then maybe not a full two weeks, but a couple of extra days ahead of recording, obviously, so that there was time for me to write everything. But yeah, especially with a serial like that, it's a pretty tight turnaround. We try to utilize that time as best we can.

Alex Howard
Ren, when they send you stuff, do they send you just your lines or do they send you the whole episode?

Ren Leach
I'll get the whole script for the episode and an MP3 track of the episode. So I'll go onto the IDC server and download through there so I can access it and listen to it there. But once I get the document, I'll pull that off, and then I can listen to the MP3 on their server.

Lee Pugsley
When you're recording the narration for an episode, I'm curious. You talked about you rely on your screen reader. I guess two questions. First is, do you read Braille? If so, do you have a Braille script that you're following along as you're recording the narration, or do you just have an earbud in where you're listening to your screen reader, it gives you a line, and then you put that line in your arsenal and, I don't want to say perform it, but record that line.

Ren Leach
No, absolutely. Getting the line and working your way through it and keeping the emotional cues that you want are important. I'm not at the point where I can go along. I'm not a braille reader, but with my screen reader, like you had mentioned, I'll wear my headphones and my computer is connected into the booth, so I'll use my screen reader through my headphones and I'll listen to the line. Then I'll deliver the line. Stop, save, start new recording, go on to the next line, listen to it, and then repeat it. Some scripts for some shows are going to be a lot more sparse. Like the Home Improvement shows that I talked about earlier, the host of the shows are constantly talking. So the audio description actions that are going to be put in there are going to be pretty short, pretty small. So on those ones, you can almost go through and perform those as I read it. So I can be listening to it on my screen reader, and then I'll go back and I'll play it again. And as it's going, I'll be able to start recording. But if it's a longer sentence or if there's multiple actions or different people or multiple tones or events happening, then I have to go through and just listen to it.

Ren Leach
Then I'll come back and without playing it, have it sit in my brain how I want to put it all together, and then record it out loud. So the dramas take a lot more time with the recording because A, the events, the script are going to be a lot more dense, and then B, because the lines, the script lines themselves are longer. It's not as easy for me to be able to just listen and recite at the same time and be able to deliver the tonal quality that each line deserves. If I was to just read it, "Executive Producer, so and so," then you could just go through and do it. But if you're trying to deliver something that connects the description to the tone and the character of the movie, then it needs to have that extra time per line.

Lee Pugsley
Yeah, that all tracks. Specifically with The Penguin then, for narration, you just mentioned tone and character of a movie or a show, what was your approach, like, I don't know, to find your voice for narration for that show? Because there are things that are very specific, once again, about the tone of that show and about the atmosphere and just different moods and everything in that show that I would assume that require maybe a degree of specificity. But yeah, I'd be curious to know how you approach that and how you found, I guess, your voice for the show.

Ren Leach
Yeah. I'll say first, that again, it begins with Dakota's script because as we alluded to earlier with Dakota going through the scenes and making sure that things are tonally and character-appropriate, for those, it gives you hints as you're going through and reading the screen, some overall general tones of moods of things that are going on. The second part is the analysis of the audio track. One of the things that Colin Farrell does in his portrayal of Oz Cobb, there's a lot of mental, verbal thinking that he does out loud before he begins his sentence. There's going to be some wind up, some sort of "Uh....yeah," some sort of "Mmmm," or whatever that's going to lean into. "Well, it sounds like he hesitates at this. Well, it sounds like he finds this a little bit humorous or something." There are going to be tonal cues that you can pick up on how they deliver it. Then also the importance of the soundtrack and the mood that is being sent with the entry into the scene as well as the movement through a scene. That also gives you some clues to play with as well. The way that I look at delivering drama or something like this, which has perhaps a hint of intrigue or sinister or deceit in it comes back from the acting class, of wear the face of the emotion that trying to portray. If you had a camera on me while I'm in this and doing different scenes, I would be over-smiling or over-sneering or something like that, something to give just a little bit of a tone without stepping on the emotions of the scene.

Alex Howard
That's so interesting, yeah, because we definitely, it was intrigue and, I would say sneaky, you know? Kind of the whole show. That's really cool that you wore that emotion.

Ren Leach
Well, there's in acting or speaking, there's, and I've talked about it on social media, the rhetorical triangle, the way of conveying information to people. If you picture a triangle and each of the points are different ways of emphasizing the information. One of the ways is going to be Informative. One of the ways is going to be Emotional. Another one is going to be completely logical and void of any... It's just going to be Clarity. The role of the actor in this is to not take, your tone that you're working should stay pretty close to the absolute center of that triangle. But what you end up having in 80 tracks that are monotone or boring or don't fit the scene is because that dot never shifts at all. The role of the actor, especially within audio description, is to just barely nudge that dot towards one of the emotions in the scene. If you are nudging it too far, then it's going take the viewer out. For example, if you've gone back and listened to older audio description, one of the ways that they would show excitement and action would always be to pitch up at the end of sentences or something like that. 

Ren Leach
Well, if you're watching Star Wars, the Millennium Falcon, everything is going to start sounding just a little bit overbearing. It's a skill to find the right thing without stepping on it because audio description, especially, we are sharing the explanation of what is going on. We are not driving it. So being able to nudge it without going too far and without keeping it in the center and just keeping it flat, I think just comes with experience, both as a narrator, but especially as an audio description consumer. For some time, we all pick up on styles that we identify with, and this is what I identify with.

Lee Pugsley
Barely nudging the dot towards the emotion. I really like the way that you phrase that. That's a great way to describe the role of an AD narrator.

Ren Leach
Thank you.

Dakota Green
To piggyback on that, it's something that I've worked on a lot in my own writing, is like, we as the audio describers, we're trying not to influence the emotions of the audience, and we're not trying to interpret it for them and tell them how they should feel, but there's a balancing act where we're trying to convey the original artist's intent without putting our own meaning onto it. And so it takes a lot of work and a lot of practice to figure out how to do that without, as Ren said, being overbearing and over interpreting it.

Lee Pugsley
Yeah. I mean, I can only imagine some of those challenges of trying to figure out how to get it exactly right, how to put it right in the middle of where it needs to be. What moments or scenes in the show did you find either most challenging or most rewarding to work on?

Ren Leach
I'll go ahead and start. I'm going to say that Dakota had me at hello. When I read the first episode and how he talked about how Oz's "curls his lip into a smile," I forget the phrasing exactly, but the way of describing and the way that that is all set up and delivered with Sofia finding how -- just for people to catch up. In episode one, Oz Cobb is going to frame Sofia's brother's murder on someone else. The execution of the plan is taken at a point of great peril for Oz because he's in physical danger. And this plan happens at just the perfect timing. The way that everything is set up and drawn out to what Dakota was talking about before, of not over-interpreting it, allowing the emotion to be carried without a ton of description, but It's still carrying enough to lead the suspense to the reveal, which comes with the music sting by Mick Giacchino's score, and it comes with the smile that he has at the same time with the screen in the background, followed by Oz's chuckle. You just get this whole picture of layers. This whole series is going to be about layers.

Ren Leach
It was so exciting because not all scripts, not all series are like that. Right off the bat, it was immediately, I was hooked.

Jamie Gagnon
Hey, everyone. Editor Jamie here. I just wanted to give you a heads up. There's this major spoiler coming up here for The Penguin. And if you haven't seen this show yet, I highly recommend skipping to 45:01 and avoiding that altogether.

BEGIN SPOILER 

Ren Leach
And then, conversely, the worst one was when I found out what happened at the end with Oz and Victor, because I'm just editing. I can't read the lines ahead on my script as I'm working on them. And then all of a sudden, the action comes in where Oz betrays Victor. And it was one of those where I had a physical reaction. My hands popped off the keyboard, and it was like, "Oh, my gosh." And so it was one of those where you wanted to do that just this, too, because it is such a completion of the turn that Oz's character takes that you wanted to do right by that.

Dakota Green
Yeah, I'm glad you mentioned that last bit, because I also had a strong reaction to that this betrayal at the end and how it almost seems to come out of nowhere. But then also, as soon as you see it happening, you're like, this actually makes a lot of sense for his character, and I'm not sure why I didn't see this coming. I was looking through that today and just how he so callously, after he's done the deed, he rifles through Victor's pockets and he takes out his cash and puts it in his own pocket and then takes the ID so no one can identify him and throws it in the river and you can just see the ID just sinking out of view so that it would just be some unidentified kid who nobody knows what happened to him. And it's heartbreaking because Victor has been so loyal to him this whole time, and for him to just turn around and effectively throw him away like trash is just brutal.

Ren Leach
Yeah.

END SPOILER 

45:01

Dakota Green
From the word go, I really appreciated in the opening sequence of the first episode that they gave all this time that didn't have any dialog that allowed me to really characterize him and talk about thick eyebrows overshadowing his eyes and his gold teeth gleaming in the darkness and the way that he walks and all of that. I really wanted to call attention to how much of his physical performance comments was just so masterful. And so I just really wanted to do justice to that.

Alex Howard
And I think the AD also really plays a part, because as I said, I was rewatching. I was like, "Oh, I'll rewatch the last episode" before recording with you guys. And I was trying to pay attention to the AD, but it just kept getting sucked into the show. And I think it says something to the effectiveness of your AD where the AD shouldn't stand out in a way. It should melt away into the show or it just feels like a part of everything. And so trying to pay attention to how it's written and how it's narrated, but kind of just blending and flowing with the show is perfect.

Dakota Green
We really do our best to try and make it feel as natural as possible, as much a part of the show as the regular soundscape is. And especially with a show like this, the soundscape is so spot on. There's all these little noises and all these little vocal things that we want to draw attention to, but not step over. And so you just want to make sure that you're keeping within the tone as we've discussed.

SPOILER AGAIN

Alex Howard
Yeah. That's really cool that you guys had that moment of shock when you were writing and narrating, too, because I know as a viewer, with that betrayal moment, it was like, "Oh, my God."

Ren Leach
Yeah, it was stunning.

END SPOILER 

Lee Pugsley
Yeah, I think to Alex's point, I just want to reiterate that everything did flow together so seamlessly that it all just blended in the AD work that both you guys have done on it, really just enhanced the experience and added to the experience to make it a much more complete experience for blind and low vision viewers. But in a way that, like Alex was saying, you're not thinking about the AD, you're just thinking about the story and just the components of the story that are helping us have that experience. It really is such standout work. I have nothing more to say other than just high praise for both of you guys.

Ren Leach
Thank you so much.

Alex Howard
One last question for you guys before we let you go. I know it's awesome that HBO was pushing for disability representation in the AD. Because in a way, this show is about disability, like with Oz Cobb, the Penguin, having a limp, having things, Vic having a stutter, the mom having some mental health issues, and then for them to fold that into the AD and be aware of that and have these really well-rounded... Obviously, all the characters in the show are very flawed and also having disabilities, and their morality being flawed as well played a big part. But how is that, especially for you, Ren? I mean, Ren, you're the face of the disabled community in terms of the AD side of things, representing Thomas and Tristan as well. But having that not only as a spinoff of a $700 million plus movie, but having the disability be such a big part in the show, how was that for you guys?

Ren Leach
I think that first, by including the blind talent into this and working within IDC's standard processes, not only were we able to create an accessible series for people, but It's an Emmy-nominated show, and the audio description rose to the level of it. Dakota's script is absolutely incredible. It does so much to take audio description just from a narration of events, but also took us into a world building in the fandom that, like we had mentioned before, is not really common in audio description tracks. But the idea of having inclusive teams creating audio description, this is more than just a show that we've created. This is a blueprint. This is a blueprint that shows that not only is it possible for blind people to be involved multiple levels in the workflow, but it also shows that we elevate the audio description. Companies like HBO that determine who they cast for projects, their idea of increasing some inclusion within their projects has been fantastic. But it's, unfortunately, the exception to the rule because the large majority of audio description, I'd put it easily over 95% of all audio description is made without the participation of blind creatives outside of a quality control role.

Ren Leach
I think that this is an opportunity to highlight and show that IDC has experience and success in implementing these inclusive casting and hiring opportunities. But it's something that should be adapted further across the industry. And I think the blind community should demand more representation in this because at the very least, we should have people in the decision-making realms of audio description, as currently we have limited-to-none. So there's a lot of room to grow. But why a project like this is so special is not just because of the inclusive thing, but because of the amount of quality and the pride that has come out of this.

Alex Howard
That's really great. I like what you said about, "Yeah, this is a blueprint for sure." That's awesome.

Dakota Green
Yeah. And I just like to add, Ren has obviously given me a lot of praise for that. But truly, my work is only part of the equation. And I think that for this track in particular to really, really blossom and reach its full potential, his incredible voice work with this is really something that needs to be highlighted and appreciated because the subtlies with which he gave extra meaning to the things that I wrote just really helped it come into its own. And as you said, feel like it's a natural part of the show itself.

Lee Pugsley
I think what's so beautiful, I guess, about any creative project, and audio description does have creativity in it for sure, is just the idea of collaboration and how awesome it is when you have  collaborators that really care about what they're doing and are just working in sync with one another to make it happen. And I think for you, Dakota and Ren, as well as the other people on your team, you can just feel the cohesion of everything that you guys were all doing together to make this audio description track excellent, to really raise the bar and to be that blueprint. And it shows, honestly. And I think it's... Yeah, once again, it's just so awesome because I always say that the best kind of art or the best kind of projects are the ones that are collaborative and cohesive when all parties have the same vision and are working togetherr to achieve that vision.

Ren Leach
Absolutely.

Lee Pugsley
It's also crazy, too, that for audio description, most of the time, it's like, you guys are all working either remotely or in different parts of the nation sometimes, and you guys may not ever actually link up with each other in person or anything, but you still feel that collaborative process, and you still feel that cohesion and unity of the final product.

Dakota Green
Absolutely. I think that, in particular for IDC, I think that comes with working together on so many projects. Obviously, Ren and I have worked together on several projects at this point, and even projects that I haven't written. I've QCed his work, and so it really helps to know ahead of time who's voicing a project, and so you can fit their tone, and then that helps it meld into the track itself. But if we can make sure that everyone knows who's collaborating on it beforehand, it really helps lend itself to a more high-quality product.

Ren Leach
Well, if I may, I would just like to jump in real quick. I think it's the forethought that is common at IDC for purposeful casting, for putting people on projects who have natural interests in the project. But also, there's such an open line of communication within the company that it doesn't matter if I'm reaching out to Dakota or Eric or Louis or anybody who's at IDC, there is no judgment. We're all on the same page. It's always a very supportive place to work. I think that it should be recognized because IDC operates with a lot of forethought before they start a project. I think that's why it reflects in the quality of the stuff that they put out.

Dakota Green
I definitely agree. I think I would give a lot of credit for that to Eric Wickstrom, who's the head of our department. He's been very diligent about making it a very inclusive and thoughtful department so that we can make sure that we put out things that we're really genuinely proud of.

Lee Pugsley
Absolutely. Hopefully, once again, the team that was assembled for Penguin, other studios and other companies will see what's been done here and see how great the finished product is, and they will want to emulate that model as well. This, hopefully, will be pioneering more inclusion in accessibility in the future. So, yeah, thank you guys so much for being here. And once again, congratulations on the Emmy nominations, the People's Choice Award nomination. And thank you again for providing us with such a wonderful viewing experience.

Ren Leach
Thank you so much.

Dakota Green
Thank you for having us.

Lee Pugsley
And before we let you go, if people wanted to connect with you guys, where can they find you?

Ren Leach
I can be found on LinkedIn, and I can be found on my website, renleach.com, R-E-N-L-E-A-C-H. Com. My email is ren@renleach.com. Keep it simple.

Dakota Green
Yeah, I can also be found on LinkedIn, and I have a, I guess they call it X now, but X Twitter, whatever you want to call it, account that I occasionally post when new projects are coming out, that would be dakotagg_idc.

Alex Howard
Thank you guys so much. It was a pleasure having you guys on. I know we've been wanting to do this for a while, and we thought we would time it with the Emmy season. So we really appreciate the interview. And if you would like to find us, you can find us, Dark Room Film Cast on Instagram and YouTube. And if you would like to email us with any thoughts that you have on this episode or any future episodes, you can email us at DarkRoomFilmCast@gmail.com.

Lee Pugsley
And we also want to give a shout out to Matt Lauterbach and All Senses Go for making transcripts of this episode possible. And BlindCAN for being our editing sponsor. Thank you guys so much for listening, and we'll see you back here next time on The Dark Room.