Ep. 49: What's Wrong with the Best Films of the Century?

Alex and Lee welcome Matt Lauterbach of All Senses Go to discuss the inaccessibility of the New York Times' Top 100 Films of the Century So Far. In this episode, we discuss why accessibility for these films is important, the barriers to getting them audio-described, and potential solutions moving forward.

Matt's interview with Alex: https://allsensesgo.substack.com/p/these-are-the-best-films-of-the-century?fbclid=IwY2xjawMvQkVleHRuA2FlbQIxMQABHtDSHHujndVMfuCskiYonhOCw-b2fKt3z4wqLVVXGcKwVo7K5dJ9elyvhob6_aem_5w3kn_0k-JmQcZM0ANwAWA 

Original NYT Article: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2025/movies/best-movies-21st-century.html

Alex's Letterboxd list of NY Top 100 Movies with AD: https://letterboxd.com/alexhoward215/list/nyt-industry-top-100-industryof-the-century/ 

If you want to reach us, e-mail darkroomfilmcast@gmail.com and follow us on Instagram, and subscribe to our YouTube channel at @darkroomfilmcast.

Check out the Audio Description Project here:
https://adp.acb.org 

Check out the Blind Can Film Festival hosted by our sponsor, Ben Fox:
https://www.blindcan.com

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Transcript

Lee Pugsley
Happy fall, everyone, and welcome back to another episode of The Dark Room, where two blind cinephiles illuminate the sighted. I'm Lee Pugsley.

Alex Howard
I'm Alex Howard.

Lee Pugsley
And this is a podcast hosted by two legally blind guys for film lovers of all abilities. And today, we have something very exciting and very relevant to talk about. Recently, the New York Times released "The 100 Best Movies of the Century So Far. Within that, there's a few things that we need to discuss. And to help us discuss this, I'd like to introduce our special guest for this episode, Matt Lauterbach. He is the founder of All Senses Go, which does captions and audio description for film. He also does the transcripts for each of our podcast episodes, which we're really grateful for. And he teaches accessibility in film at DePaul University. Matt, welcome to the show.

Matt Lauterbach
Hey, thanks. Great to be here.

Lee Pugsley
Great to have you. And we always appreciate your support with the podcast. So today we are talking about the New York Times "100 Best Movies of the Century So Far." And we realized something very interesting about this list. And Alex, I'll pass it to you, and you can tell us what we've discovered.

Alex Howard
Yeah. So Matt interviewed me for an article. We discovered that only about 50% of the movies have audio description. I think it's 52 or 53 of the 100 have audio description. So Matt wrote an article about how that impacts the blind community, and just breaking down all the numbers, and that goes with that.

Lee Pugsley
And we want to go ahead and dive into that today. We want to discuss what does this mean that only 50% of the films on this list are audio-described? How does that affect accessibility? What are the barriers to getting more audio description on all 100 films on this list? And what are some possible solutions? To start with, I'd like to just go ahead and get your reactions from both you, Matt and Alex, on when you hear that only 50% of these movies on this list are described, what is your reaction to that?

Matt Lauterbach
For me, it feels like a real lost opportunity, both for these films that are so beloved by so many people to find an even wider audience, but a loss of opportunity for people who can't experience those films, who can't talk about them, who can't make reference to them. And so, yeah, it's just a bummer. And the instant next thought is, "How do we fix this? How do we get it so that more films are described?"

Lee Pugsley
And Alex, what about you?

Alex Howard
For me, it was real disappointing because I think... I mean, some of my favorite movies of the century so far are definitely on here that are described, like Get Out, and Arrival. There are a bunch of other ones on there, but I think there are several on there, some that I love that aren't described, like No Country for Old Men and things like that. But then there are other ones that I've always wanted to see, like Pan's Labyrinth, Spirited Away, and people talk about how great they are all the time, and I've never been able to watch because they're not described. It really leaves a disparity, especially for film lovers like us. I mean, we're discussing film and listening to people talk about film most of our day. And so then when we get with our friends or other industry professionals and a list like this comes up, we don't have that knowledge of talking about half of the movies on this list.

Matt Lauterbach
Yeah. And there's not just the knowledge aspect. There's also just the impact that some of these movies could have. I think it's not necessarily true that films change lives, but films can involve crystallizing moments for people who see them, moments where they get really keenly interested in something or moments where their eyes are opened, their minds are opened to a new perspective or a new culture. And those opportunities for those crystallizing moments are also what's lost if you just can't access a film.

Lee Pugsley
I agree with everything that both of you guys are saying. It really does feel like there's lost opportunity here. And also as a filmmaker, these films are not getting out to a wider audience. As a filmmaker, that's always the desire is that you can have your film seen by as many audiences as possible. But to your point, too, Matt, there is a missed opportunity in the sense of the cultural conversations that the blind and low vision community are not able to participate in, the perspective shifts that we might be able to have if we were able to fully experience those movies. Then for me and Alex, as film critics and some other blind and low vision film critics, it hinders us from being able to have that film criticism and to see how film history has affected the present day because we're not able to view all of those iconic films and get the full experience of it. With this in mind, Matt, I would ask you, what do you think some of the possible barriers are to getting audio description on this full list of film? Within those barriers, do you think that there's any solutions that you would have to recommend?

Matt Lauterbach
In the interview that I conducted with Alex, Alex pointed out that it's probably going to be more likely to get future films audio described, like a higher percentage of future films audio described, than it is to get this list of 100 films fully described, all 100 of them. I think there's some stuff we can talk about with getting the back catalog described. I'd be very curious to learn from you both, where you've seen success stories on that end and how you've seen it happen. But on the future-facing end, I feel like there are four main barriers that keep -- especially independent filmmakers, filmmakers who don't have the heft of a studio behind their film -- there's four arguments sometimes that are made against audio description by filmmakers. And just so the audience has some background on me, I am a documentary film editor, and I am a self-taught documentary film editor, so I'm very grassroots. I come from a vibrant Chicago social issue documentary background, and I have been making the case for accessibility for over a decade. It's been very hard to get it to stick. For filmmakers who might seem supportive of the idea, to still find reasons not to have their film described.

Matt Lauterbach
And so those four barriers are really-- First one is ignorance. People might just not know about audio description, or if they do know about it, they don't know how to make it happen for their film. There's a barrier that Alex pointed out in my interview with him of purity, where auteur, directors, and filmmaker purists believe that their film is intended to be seen and heard in concert. This balance of audio and sound that is the intended experience for the film and not wanting to compromise that. So there's the purity barrier. There's the expense barrier. That's the third big one that I hear. Often it's because they haven't planned for audio description. They say it's too expensive. "In my little indie film, we barely got the film made. There's no way we can afford another $2,000 or $3,000 for audio description. Case closed." Then the last argument I hear against putting effort into audio description is this idea that, "Well, the audience isn't that large for it. My scrappy independent film, how many more audience members will we really get by adding audio description?" So there's the skepticism that it'll really reach anyone. And so I can dive into each one of those, but I'm curious if you have any other barriers that you have come across for filmmakers being reluctant to add audio description?

Lee Pugsley
That's a great question. Alex, let's start with you. Are there any other barriers that you can think of?

Alex Howard
Well, I think in the purity aspect is the biggest one that I've... Well, purity and budget, but I guess, specifically in terms of purity, I think that's where it's mostly foreign films where they don't want to make a dub, and dub is a big part of audio description for foreign films. And so I think that's where it comes in. Parasite, I know that was a big thing where he was saying "you need to get over the barrier of subtitles." And then even Everything Everywhere All At Once, I feel like it's very strange that... I mean, at least for Everything Everywhere All At Once, it does have an AD track for digital, but at least for the physical copy, there's no AD track. And so it's strange that that one doesn't have it either. What about you, Lee? As a filmmaker yourself, what are some of the barriers that you've come across?

Lee Pugsley
I think that Matt covered all of them that I have heard, actually. I'm trying to think if there's anything else, and nothing really comes to mind at the moment. But as we to continue within this conversation, I'll throw some out if we think of them. And within the whole idea of the purity of film, I think that there's a case to be made, too, that audio description doesn't just replicate the visuals, but can also enhance the experience, especially for the blind and low vision audiences. But I think that there's still something very poetic sometimes about the writing of audio description and the details that it's able to add that even sighted audiences may not always pick up on. I think that is something that should be considered when we're talking about the purity of film and why or why not an audio description should or should not be added.

Matt Lauterbach
Yeah, I love that, that pointing out of how it can become poetry and really an art form unto itself and something that enhances the experience, not just for blind viewers, but for anyone who has the audio description turned on. Experience the film differently, notice things that they might not have noticed otherwise. But addressing the purity argument, audio description we mentioned, dubbing we mentioned, but the purity argument that I encounter most often is against open captions. You've got your closed captions, which you can turn on or off depending on your personal preference on your home computer or television set. But then a film festival might choose to screen a film with open captions, where everyone in the audience sees the captions on screen. And filmmakers, I've spoken with festival organizers who really believe in accessibility, really want to start offering open captioned screenings. The biggest resistance they encounter is from either audience members who complain because they didn't want text on screen, or more often even from the filmmakers who don't want their image, quote, "marred" by text on screen. And so I think that one of my answers to that is often, "Well, you might be worried about open captions marring the image because you didn't have a hand in creating those captions, in placing them on the screen, and fitting them into the composition of your film. If you had been actively involved in that, you would have had the two thumbs up from the director, 'These are the captions I approve of.'"

Matt Lauterbach
And so it's really, for me, a case of rather than opposing access, get involved in access and bring your artistic sensibility to access so that it's filmmaker-approved. I think that's what I would say about audio description, too, where if you're a filmmaker, how will your blind audience encounter your movie? If you haven't decided to invest in audio description, do you want them confused, lost, missing crucial plot points, or just unable to engage at all? If the answer is, "No, I'd like them to engage," this is how. And so I encourage filmmakers to think of it as a creative endeavor. It's a translation of your film into a purely auditory experience. And it's an opportunity to flex your creative muscles in a different form. And it's a very creative, fun thing that I want filmmakers to get excited about making an excellent, pure form of audio description for your blind audience.

Alex Howard
I wanted to go on a tangent real quick. Lee and I had a phone call last night, and we realized that sometimes, not all the time, but sometimes it might be beneficial to have a third party create your audio description track as opposed to the filmmaker doing it, purely because sometimes the filmmaker might be too close to the film and be like, "This is what I intended," and describe what they intended the audience to take away from it, as opposed to what we're actually seeing and what is actually portrayed. And so it actually might give the filmmaker some perspective if they send their film out and receive it back and be like, "Oh, I didn't realize that's what I was actually showing, not what I was intending." What do you think about that, Matt?

Matt Lauterbach
Yeah, I think that's a really great point. And I would add some nuance in that I think that what I'm trying to do in my work is create filmmaker-approved audio description rather than filmmaker-led or filmmaker-created. I guess the distinction in my mind is the audio description team is still the experts and still can voice their opinion and their recommendations and argue strongly for certain things. But if the filmmaker is involved, there's that opportunity for a couple of things, the filmmaker to get excited and invested in the audio described product rather than just it being this unseen, unheard thing that their distributor did. So that's one big thing. But then filmmakers can catch real category errors where maybe the audio describer didn't know something or got the name of something wrong or misgendered someone or this or that. And it's equivalent to doing your research, except the filmmaker is now a research tool for the audio description team and can weigh in or correct. But yes, sometimes when I work with filmmakers, I do get a filmmaker who very enthusiastically makes suggestions that I'm like, "That's not a good idea." And I say that, "That's not a good idea. Here's why, here's what my thoughts are." And then I also involve blind quality control specialists who can back me up, who have feedback of their own that the director tends to value and listen to.

Alex Howard
I know you are also playing a part in shaping the future of accessibility by... You have a class that you teach, correct? And you're-- Basically, the goal is to teach future filmmakers that this isn't really an option. This is just a part of the film, is creating these assets, and your film isn't done until these are finished as well, correct?

Matt Lauterbach
Absolutely. I really see teaching film students about accessibility as a really important corrective to that ignorance barrier, where a lot of times it's not that the filmmaker doesn't care or doesn't want to welcome blind audience members into their film experience. It's more that they just didn't know! Because this isn't taught in film programs. It should be. And yeah, it should be thought of as something right along the lines of color correction or sound mix, where it's a necessary deliverable to get your film out into the world and to make the experience as high quality as possible for as wide a possible of an audience.

Lee Pugsley
I always encourage filmmakers to think about audio description as a part of the post process, to your point, Matt. Not an afterthought after post is completely done, but as you're going through post, let's do the audio the description alongside everything else that you're adding into it. And I also understand that sometimes you have to wait till everything is completed so you know where to put the audio description, but start working on that with all the other elements of post. And I think that that will be a more streamlined process. And then if you budget for it, to your other point, which we'll get to, it will all just fall into place and it won't feel like this extra layer that you have to get done because you have already planned for it.

Matt Lauterbach
Yeah, I'd just love to add that I, being an editor, with my awareness of audio description, I've become more aware of, in my edits, of just pacing so that whatever the final audio description is, it just has more opportunities to slip in. From documentary film, there's plenty of films that are just almost wall-to-wall, expert interview after expert interview after expert interview. If there's anything vérité, it's all dialog-based, and it's just wall-to-wall talking from start to finish. I think that's bad filmmaking, personally, when you never give your audience a chance to breathe. But it also, by inserting more opportunities to breathe and reflect for a sighted audience, for the blind audience you're creating more opportunities for clarifying description. And so I think knowing and being aware of audio description can help filmmakers slow the pace of their filmmaking down a bit, still striving for being as engaging and engrossing as possible, but not necessarily this anxious need to fit every spare second with dialog content.

Lee Pugsley
I would agree with that as well, that we have seen those examples of audio description and filmmaking combined, where there's just no room to breathe. There's no room for us as a viewer to just sit with the moment. And it's overwhelming and it's mentally exhausting because you're constantly having to think. You can't just take a break to let something sink in. And at the end of it, then you're like, "What did I just watch? I heard a lot of things and took in a lot, but I didn't have time to digest a lot of it."

Matt Lauterbach
Yeah.

Lee Pugsley
The other thing I wanted to comment on as well is the fact that filmmakers should realize that once they have more accessibility in their films and they can reach the blind and low vision audiences, there's more potential that those audiences are going to be able to see what the filmmaker's intent was because they've had the full picture. Therefore, if they like the film, they're going to be able to go ahead and give it a good word of mouth. And as we know in the film industry, word of mouth is the most powerful way to get more viewership on your film.

Lee Pugsley
However, on the contrary, if there is no audio description and the blind or low vision viewer is confused and they don't understand the film, then they're probably not going to give it a good review just because they didn't get half of the film. And so I think that's something that filmmakers should take into consideration, that adding audio description to their film only increases their potential for more viewership and for word of mouth to spread, not only to other blind movie watchers, but also to other sighted audiences that we may encounter as well.

Matt Lauterbach
Yeah. And the word of mouth thing, I think, is super important to focus on, where another trap I hear filmmakers getting into, and festivals organizers, is... Let's say it's a film festival, a small film festival that for the first time is deciding to offer a couple audio-described screenings, and then no one asks for the devices, right? Well, that's largely because no word of mouth has spread yet about the film festival having accessible screenings. And so what happens is this unfortunate self-fulfilling prophecy where festivals say, "We tried that, no one came," and so they back off from trying to offer accessible screenings. But if they consistently and reliably offer audio-described screenings, then an audience and word of mouth may eventually spread. And so it's really playing the longer game, not looking for immediate results, but having that patience to let the word spread and to also do the outreach you need to even let potential blind audience members know out there in the community that, "Hey, we want you here. Come give us feedback," that kind of thing.

Alex Howard
Yeah, definitely. And I've certainly found... I mean, Lee and I, we always feel like we're the only ones asking for devices, but then it's also like, they always seem to have them ready. So I'm sure... I mean, we thought we were the only ones, and then we met each other. And we were like, "Oh, there is another person. So yeah, I'm I'm sure there's more than we think."

Lee Pugsley
And even to that point about spreading the word, there are still people within the blind and low vision community that don't know that all theaters are required to have audio description and captioning devices. Now, granted, sometimes you go to a theater and there may be a miss, and that's unfortunate, but most theaters should have audio description devices. So if you're out there and you're listening right now, know that if you go to your local theater, by ADA regulations, that theater should have audio description available for you.

Matt Lauterbach
Those requirements are for the venue to have audio description devices and the capability of displaying audio description. But the other side of the coin is getting the films to have audio description assets available for screening. I think that's the other side of the coin, where trying to convey to filmmakers that this is their obligation, this is their side of the coin.

Alex Howard
Yeah. I mean, even currently, right now, Toxic Adventure comes out this week. There's no audio description. There's a movie out called Primitive War that I've been hearing people talk about online. It's like dinosaurs and World War II or something. It's like a silly fun movie, but there's no audio descriptions. I'm like, "Oh, cool. I can't watch that one either." So yeah, even weirdly today, there are movies coming out. They're not huge movies by any means, but there are ones that people are talking about that we can't participate in the conversation. So hopefully classes like Matt is teaching in other ways will educate filmmakers more for the future so that... I think Matt has the percentages of we separated out the New York Times 100 by decade, and as we got further and further towards today, the number of films grew that were fully accessible.

Matt Lauterbach
Yeah, it went from only 30%-- Sorry, 36% of films in the 2000s, that first decade, only 36% were described. Second decade of the century, the 2010s, 65% were described. And the current decade, there were only eight films that made it on the list, but seven out of eight of those films had audio description. So it seems like things are improving, again, with forward-facing films, but the back catalog is still a challenge.

Lee Pugsley
What do you think the solution is to getting the back catalog audio described? And I know that Alex, in the article, you mentioned that that may be an unrealistic expectation to get every movie in the back catalog described. But for either of you, how is that possible or what needs to happen in order to get that done?

Alex Howard
Well, I think from what I've observed, if Disney owns it, it'll get audio described. I mean, Disney shouldn't own everything, obviously. But they have been doing a great job of going back and the Touchstone stuff, the Fox stuff, the Hollywood Picture stuff. They just did Master and Commander. Pretty sure they're going to be doing a Rocky Horror Picture Show. Pretty much anything they're brushing up for 4K, they're describing. Paramount is doing a really good job of it. But there are other studios, like, Warner Brothers is about half and half. Universal is pretty hit or miss with that. So it just depends. If you're brushing up your movie for 4K and putting out with a Dolby Atmos and Dolby Vision and all of this, you should be also including all of the modern day accessibility assets, especially for ones like we mentioned, like Pan's Labyrinth and Spirited Away. And there were even movies later in the episode we're going to talk about what would we add onto the list. And I had some that I wanted to add on, but I was like, "Oh, that doesn't have an audio description. That's weird." But especially the 2000 to 2010 range. I mean, like Matt said, it's only 35%. So there's a lot of room for improvement there. There Will Be Blood is another big one, too.

Lee Pugsley
I think another component of getting the back catalog described is that for us within the blind and low vision communities, reaching out to studios or audio description companies or whoever we need to reach out to to let them know: These are the movies we want described. Because the back catalog is extensive. But the important classic films that have made this list, for example, we should reach out to different companies in different places to let them know that these are movies that are very important to us to get described. And if we get enough people doing that, not saying that there's going to be the change and that we're always going to get it, but there's a possibility. I mean, I think of John Stark, for example, who's been on our show before, who's a blind film critic. He's reached out to Hulu and a few other companies multiple times, and he's been able to get an audio description track for some of the movies that he's wanted it for.

Matt Lauterbach
Yeah, and because I come from the indie world, I don't have much understanding or exposure or connections with the studio world at all. But I am curious if either of you have a theory about... You know, Alex, you mentioned Disney and Paramount and these other places that are doing a good job of getting the back catalog described versus these others that aren't. What do you think the difference is? Why are some doing this work and why are some not?

Alex Howard
I don't know. I get the sense that it might just be the process for Disney of, "Oh, if we're brushing this up, we have to do this, too." That might just be part of their thinking. For other studios, I don't want to say they are like, "Oh, I don't want to do this." I think it's just they don't think about it. For some reason, Warner Brothers has the Rocky movies described, the James Bond movies described, but then the Superman ones aren't, and the Nightmare on Elm Street ones aren't. It's like, I have no idea how they choose what to do it for and what not to. It seems very random sometimes.

Lee Pugsley
It does indeed. Now, Matt, for you, since you are in more of the independent filmmaking space, which I'm in that space right now as well, what would your advice be to someone who sees a film at a film festival, let's say, or some smaller independent theater that does not have audio description. It wasn't made by a studio, but it was made by an independent filmmaker. How would you recommend they go about contacting someone or trying to advocate for audio description on that film?

Matt Lauterbach
That's an excellent question. So hearing some of the conversations in the industry, mostly thinking about the independent community and the film festival circuit, there's this question of, whose responsibility is it to get a film described? Is it the filmmaker's responsibility? There's some people arguing that, "Nno, it shouldn't be the filmmaker's responsibility because they're just getting their film made." This is an extra, quote, "burden" for them to have to invest more money in their film that they already invested their mortgage in. That kind of thing. But then the other side argues that it should be the film festival's responsibility because they're the ones distributing-- Well, not really distributing, but they're the ones choosing to exhibit this film. And so they're in a space where the venue may be required to have audio description headsets, and it's their obligation as an event organizer to make their event as accessible as possible. So maybe they should front the bill for the films. But that becomes very quickly unsustainable for a larger film festival, and frankly, for a smaller film festival, of having to create audio description for sometimes hundreds of films. There are some film festivals that have done that. ReelAbilities does that. I don't want to incorrectly mention I can't name drop any other ones, but I know there are some that have made that decision that "If a filmmaker doesn't have audio description, we will pay for the audio description and create it." But I think, like, long-winded way around to say that my personal view is, I don't think it's a burden for the filmmaker. I think it's an opportunity for the filmmaker. You wouldn't say that a film festival should sound mix my film. Right? You wouldn't say that the film festival should color-correct my film. You want to do that. You need to find the money for it. It's your film. And so that's really my personal belief and why I've put a lot of my own advocacy effort into educating filmmakers so that filmmakers understand, are aware, and get excited about this art form instead of experiencing it as something that, "Oh, crap, I didn't think about this. I don't have the money for this because I didn't plan for it in the first place."

Lee Pugsley
I share the same view as you that I think it is the filmmaker's responsibility within the indie space to bring accessibility to their film, especially because, like you said, some film festivals have hundreds of films. A lot of times, there's a lot of volunteers that are running those festivals. And the truth of the matter is, most film festivals do not have the time, and sometimes even the budget, to go get every film on their roster audio described. But it is very manageable for each filmmaker to do that. I love how you put it, if they see accessibility as an opportunity, not a burden. That shift of perspective makes all the difference in the world.

Matt Lauterbach
Absolutely.

Lee Pugsley
Now, in terms of any of the other barriers that you have brought up, ignorance, purity, budget, and I forget the last one right now, but in terms of those barriers, any other solutions that you see to pushing accessibility forward?

Matt Lauterbach
Yeah, I think one other solution that we mentioned in the article, in the interview with Alex, is making audio description a requirement to qualify for festival awards or for competitions, for the Academy Awards. That's related to the filmmaker responsibility, where if you want certain things for your film, if you want the exposure of an award or a competition, then you would become aware of audio description in the process of trying to get an award at an organization that requires audio description. Right? And so I do think that-- I remember listening to an interview with Roy Samuelsen, an audio description narrator, about getting the SAG awards to require audio description for their screeners. And I think that's a great tactic. It's not requiring all filmmakers to audio describe their film. It's saying this is a criteria to qualify. And then it puts the onus on the filmmaker to meet those criteria.

Lee Pugsley
I think that's a very effective way of doing things, to offer that incentive to filmmakers to get their films audio described. And I think alongside that as well, this goes back to the first barrier that you had mentioned, ignorance. Not necessarily intentional ignorance. I want to make that clear. Just you only know what you know until you know something else. I think that film organizations and other places need to start educating filmmakers on accessibility more and more, like what you're doing with the film class you teach at DePaul. I think that that should happen more in networking events or different film-wide panels and everything so that people understand that accessibility is something that matters, but also something that enhances the art itself for a variety of reasons.

Alex Howard
And I think having those requirements like Matt was talking about with the academy or big film festivals, something like that, that will trickle down into education and into making it just part of the process, because if these big organizations are requiring it, everyone's going to want their films to match those requirements.

Matt Lauterbach
Yeah. Everyone aspires to get into Sundance, right? And it's often the first festival that anyone applies to. They want their Sundance premiere, so they hold off on applying to other festivals until they've gotten accepted or rejected from Sundance. And so if that first gateway festival requires audio description, I don't think they do currently, but if they were to, then the motivation would be much higher for filmmakers. "Gotta do this to qualify for Sundance." And then as a perk, all these other film festivals have a bigger pool of audio-described films to choose from.

Lee Pugsley
Yeah, well said. And I would also love to see more articles about accessibility within entertainment entertainment trades in general, like Variety, or Deadline, or Hollywood Reporter, just talking about the importance of audio description or accessibility, because I very rarely see those articles. There was one a few months ago, Alex, that you had sent me about the audio description team for The Penguin, who we did an interview with in one of our podcast episodes. But beyond that, I very rarely see anything about accessibility in the entertainment trades.

Alex Howard
And I think it's interesting because the article we're talking about right now is The New York Times. And it is amazing that they have such a variety of films, and there's a bunch of foreign films on the list. And it's not just films from America, it's diversity and all this. But I think with that goes, "Okay, but we need to make the diverse films more accessible as well."

Lee Pugsley
That is definitely one of the areas where there's a gap, especially with international films and some of the more diverse titles on that top 100 list. So this has been a really good conversation. And as we shift into talking more specifically about the top 100 lists and maybe films that we wish were on there, do you guys have any final thoughts before we shift gears?

Matt Lauterbach
Yeah, I'll say one last thing about filmmaker motivation to think that... Not to think, "But how many blind people will watch my film, really?" And shifting that to, "If my film can reach more people, there's no telling who will connect with the film." I think that a personal experience of mine has really impacted my opinion of small audiences, where I don't think a small audience is worth any less than a big audience. I think a small audience of people who adore your film, who are impacted by your film, is super important. If you have a small audience of blind viewers, that's not something to dismiss. A film changed my career. I saw a documentary film called Refrigerator Mothers, about mothers of children with autism and the impact that had on their own lives. It made me realize I wanted to shift from teaching to making documentaries. I have a psychology background, and so the film, I showed clips of it in my classroom when I taught psychology at the high school level. And the film impacted me so much that I was like, "I want to make these teaching tools. I want to make these films." And so, one film that, if I were blind, had never made its way to me, and I had never encountered it or seen it, then I may never have shifted my career. And so I think it's no small matter. It's no small thing to reach a small audience.

Alex Howard
That's very true. Yeah, there have been several films where it's like, "Oh, this heavily impacts my taste, my life, everything." That's a really good point.

Lee Pugsley
Absolutely.

Alex Howard
Yeah, I think with that, we can... So one thing that Matt, when we were saying only about 50% of the films were described, I was joking with Matt and I said, "Oh, does that mean I get to fill in the other 50% with what I think should be on the list that are audio-described?" So I think we're going to end the episode with each of us have three films that we would add to the list that have audio description.

Matt Lauterbach
Awesome.

Lee Pugsley
And for clarification, these are films that do not currently appear on the top 100 industry list that was published in the New York Times, but films that we feel like should be there.

Matt Lauterbach
Yeah, and I just want to read the last paragraph from the interview with Alex, where I asked what Alex's parting message for the interview would be, and Alex, you said, "Okay, if you aren't going to describe these movies, then I'm going to make my own list of 100. I'll take the 53 films that are described, and then I'll just add another 47 of my own choices, and we can go from there. If you want your movie on my list, you've got to put description on it."

Lee Pugsley
A very powerful and true statement in a perfect way to encapsulate everything that we've talked about in terms of this list and why we're even having this discussion. And I would encourage everyone to check out the interview that Matt and Alex did. We'll go ahead and post a link in the description of our podcast episode. But it's a very thoughtful interview, and there's a lot of takeaways from it.

Alex Howard
And if you want more from this, Matt and I will be doing a community call with the American Council for the Blind. I think that's happening later this month. If not this month, the next month. But keep an eye out on the American Council for the Blind website, the Audio Description Project website for when that community call will be. And then you can actually jump in and talk to Matt and I about what you think of the list and this whole topic.

Lee Pugsley
And getting back to the movies that we would add to the best 100 movies of the century so far, let's go ahead and go around, and we'll start with you, Alex. What's one movie that you would add to this list that did not appear there?

Alex Howard
So my first one that I was shocked was not on there is La La Land, would be my first addition. I think it's an awesome movie. I think it's amazing. Anytime I see it in concert or anything, I try and go, especially before I go on a job interview or something. It's a great are moving to watch to get pumped up and motivated for the industry.

Lee Pugsley
I will jump in here as well, and I will say that La La Land is also one of the movies that I felt like should have been on this list. I do think that it is a masterpiece in cinema in terms of the visual aesthetics that I'm able to pick up on. It's very vibrant, very colorful. The music is great. And being someone who lives in Los Angeles pursuing entertainment, it really hit home for me, and I found it very moving, and I think it should be there. Matt, what about you? What's one movie that you would put on this list?

Matt Lauterbach
I would put on a recent animated film from Latvia called Flow. It's this dialogue-free film. It's essentially a silent film with a rich score and sound design and really expressive animal sounds because it follows this cute black cat trying to survive in a post-apocalyptic world, or at least a post-human world. And the water levels start to rise, and it's just absolutely hypnotic and engrossing to watch these animals try to figure out what to do, or kind of going with the flow. But you experience a lot of just fear. These animals learn to trust each other. There's a lot of awe-inspiring moments, and my kids are begging to see it again. And I know that there is a little bit of a backstory here, where initially it was released without audio description. And now that it has audio description, it's on my list. What is the backstory there, Alex? I think you know a little bit about it, right?

Alex Howard
Yeah. So Liz Gutman wrote track for Flow, and it was on Max, now HBO Max again. I think it's still there. I actually haven't watched it yet because there was a rumor that Flow was coming to Criterion Collection. So I contacted Criterion, and then obviously, we know Liz Gutman because she's been on the podcast for a while. So I connected the two of them. And so now the audio description that Liz made is going to end up on Criterion Collection. So that's going to come out in November. So I'm waiting until... Actually, I think it comes out this month, but the sale, Criterion sale is in November. They have a 50% off sale every November. So I'm waiting till November till I get the disk, and I'm going to watch it on Criterion.

Matt Lauterbach
Awesome.

Alex Howard
But I'm very, very excited.

Lee Pugsley
I still need to watch that movie as well. That's one of them that I missed last year, but I'm excited to watch it.

Alex Howard
So then my second one is Hereditary. I think this

Matt Lauterbach
Oh yeah.

Alex Howard
This is one of the best horror films, I mean, ever. But I still, anytime Ari Aster makes a movie, I haven't liked his last two movies, but I still go because it's Ari Aster and he made Hereditary. And I'm like, "Someday he's going to get back to this form." I think this movie is absolutely amazing. And I think it doesn't have AD everywhere, but it has it certain places.

Lee Pugsley
Yeah, that's a very good choice. Really solid film. And I do agree, it is one of the best horror films of the century so far. For me, my second film on the list would be Coco. I know that there were other Pixar movies on this list. Wall-E and Ratatouille and Up, I believe, were the only three that were on that list. But I personally like Coco more than all of those, even though I don't dislike those. I think that Coco is very moving on a very deep level because it really explores the themes of identity and family in such a relatable way. And I also think that it was really big in the fact of the exploration of Mexican culture and brought something very unique to the table. It's one of those movies in terms of animated films that really stands out among the crowd, especially within the Pixar catalog. But in all the animated movies of the century so far.

Matt Lauterbach
That's great. You both are choosing fantastic films. Hereditary I loved. Coco, I'm excited to rewatch with the kids as Halloween approaches and Day of the Dead. For me, one of the ones that I saw a couple of years ago that just really, really impacted me was The Banshees of Inisheren, directed by Martin McDonagh. Same director as In Bruges, which I also loved. But it's these two lifelong friends in Ireland. One of them, played by Brendon Gleeson, just like, abruptly cuts off the relationship and refuses to have anything to do with what used to be his best friend. And there's just these repeated confrontations as the friend who was cut off, played by Colin Farrell, just gets more and more desperate for connection, and it just goes some very dark places. It did not make me feel good, but I was engrossed the whole time.

Lee Pugsley
I agree with that. I think it was a very well-crafted film, and I was engrossed the whole time. And the writing is so good. The performances are so good in that movie as well. And Alex, what's your third one that you would add to the list?

Alex Howard
See, I'm still going back and forth in my head because I'm like, "Oh, I only have one more." Coco was definitely when I was debating for sure. That's a great, great movie. So there were a couple that I wanted to choose, like Drive, but Drive doesn't have AD right now. Saw, I wanted to choose. Saw doesn't have AD, the first one. So I have to go with It Follows, is my... I would say It Follows is my favorite horror film post 2000. I think it's the music, just everything about it. I love that movie so much. And once again, it doesn't have AD everywhere. But whenever it's on Netflix, it has AD, and I think it's somewhere else available digitally. But yeah, It Follows is definitely my number three.

Lee Pugsley
Nice. Solid choice. For me, my number three is Moulin Rouge! I know that Baz Luhrmann is an acquired taste for a handful of people, maybe even a good percentage of people. But I think that this movie is a masterpiece. Putting aside my love for musicals, I think that what this movie achieves on a cinematic level in terms of the stylistic approach, the editing, the anachronistic use of music and production design, as well as the performances and a story that's reasonably conventional, honestly, but told in such a unique and compelling, cinematic way. I think that's one of those movies that really stands out from this century so far. And it does have audio description, but the caveat here is it only has audio description on a DVD version. Hopefully, we'll get it on a digital version soon because there obviously was a track created. But if you want to get your hands on the audio-described version of Moulin Rouge!, you'll have to order on Amazon, and we'll put a link below to do that.

Matt Lauterbach
My third film, I was happy to discover that it does have AD. I wasn't sure whether it would. It's the 2015 film called Room with Brie Larson and Jacob Tremblay. It's another, kind of, not a feel-good movie. It's this woman who has been held captive seven years by her abuser and had her son while in this abusive situation, a child of rape. And it's a story of her trying to stay positive and keep her... You know, give her son as normal of a possible of a life as can be. And there's just this one moment that's burned into my memory. I don't honestly remember much about the film, except this one moment where the boy finally escapes, rolled up into this rug that's on the bed of a pickup truck as it's driving. And you see the rug slowly truly unfold. And for the first time in his entire life, the boy sees the outside world. And it's filmed from his perspective. You just see these glimpses of sun and sky and trees, intercut with him kind of like blinking in amazement and like, oh, I'm getting emotional right now. So yeah, that's up there for me.

Alex Howard
Dang, yeah. That was one of my favorite films that year that came. See, I just got goosebumps. Yeah, that was one of my favorite films the year it came out. Wow, I want to rewatch that. I have it back there on my shelf.

Lee Pugsley
Really powerful film. I really liked that film in terms of, not that I felt good after, but in terms of the power of that film and the journey that these characters go on.

Alex Howard
You feel the way the filmmaker intended you to feel after that film.

Lee Pugsley
Definitely.

Matt Lauterbach
Totally.

Alex Howard
If you are interested in, I mean, obviously, if you're listening to this podcast, you are an ally for audio description. So if you want to add to the list as well, let us know what you think should be on the list. Send us up to 47, whatever you think should fill in the New York Times Top 100. Reach out and let us know. You can email us at DarkRoomFilmCast@gmail.com. That is DarkRoomFilmCast@gmail.com. And you can also follow us on Instagram @DarkRoomFilmCast.

Lee Pugsley
And we'd like to thank you once again, Matt, for being on our show. And normally we would say thank you to All Senses Go. But now that you're here, we can thank you personally. So thank you for being a guest on our show, number one, and for your continued support with our podcast, with your company, All Senses Go, making transcripts of each episode of this podcast possible.

Matt Lauterbach
Absolutely.

Lee Pugsley
We really appreciate your commitment to accessibility, and it's an honor to have you to be a partner with us in this endeavor.

Matt Lauterbach
I love listening to the podcast, and it's great as the transcriber of the episodes to have the excuse to listen closely to every episode.

Alex Howard
Yeah. Thank you, Matt.

Lee Pugsley
And if people wanted to get in touch with you, Matt, what is the best way for them to connect?

Matt Lauterbach
Absolutely. So I would love to get emails from interested filmmakers who want to caption and describe their film. My business is All Senses Go, and it's basically the name AllSensesGo, one word, @gmail.com. So, a-l-l-s-e-n-s-e-s-g-o@gmail.com.

Lee Pugsley
Awesome. Well, we'll be sure to link that in the description below as well, so you can find Matt's contact information there. And thank you all so much for listening, and we'll see you back here next time on The Dark Room.

Alex Howard
Well, thanks, guys.