50th Episode Extravaganza!

Alex and Lee celebrate 50 episodes of THE DARK ROOM with a retrospective look back at the past three years. They reflect on the evolution of the podcast and how it has impacted them personally and professionally, as well as recalling their favorite episodes and casting a vision for what the future holds. They also recap highlights from the 2025 summer movie season, and end with some fun games featuring current and long-time editor, Jamie Gagnon.

Follow his work on Vimeo (https://vimeo.com/showcase/11112062), and on Minute of Zen (www.youtube.com/@MinuteOfZenYT) 

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Check out the Audio Description Project here:
https://adp.acb.org 

Check out the Blind Can Film Festival hosted by our sponsor, Ben Fox:
https://www.blindcan.com

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Transcript

Lee Pugsley
What's up, everyone, and happy October. Welcome back to another episode of The Dark Room, where two blind cinephiles illuminate the sighted. I'm Lee Pugsley.

Alex Howard
I'm Alex Howard.

Lee Pugsley
And this is a podcast hosted by two legally blind guys for film lovers of all abilities. Today, we are so excited about this episode because it marks a milestone. This is our 50th episode, and it's been so exciting to see the evolution of this podcast over almost three years that we've been doing it now, which is crazy to believe. And today, we have a really fun episode planned for you guys, and we are so excited to do this retrospective to celebrate the 50th episode and take a look back and see where the podcast started, how it's evolved, the impact that it's had on our lives personally and professionally, as well as the blind and low vision community at large. Recall some of our favorite moments and guests, and to give you a preview of some of the fun things we have planned in the future, as well as look back at summer movies, and we're going to end with some games, something new that we're going to try moving forward. So Alex, how do you feel about this being the 50th episode? What's your reaction to that.

Alex Howard
Yeah, it's very exciting that this is episode 50. I can't believe we've been doing this for two and a half years. I feel like we just started this journey. I know I've grown a lot with my blind journey and just the whole podcast. It's been a lot of fun. How are you feeling?

Lee Pugsley
I'm feeling really good. I mean, it's crazy how fast time flies, like I mentioned earlier. And I think that there's been a lot of really unexpected surprises along the way from where this podcast started to where it's at now. And I know that you were the one who started this podcast. You came to me with a vision for this. So why don't you just take a moment to reflect back on that about the inspiration to start this podcast and the ways that you've seen it evolve over time?

Alex Howard
Yeah. So I think I caught the podcast bug because my friend Jamie and I used to do a podcast called Not Quite Hollywood. Jamie now edits this podcast. But after that podcast ended, I don't know, I had so much fun talking about movies and putting my thoughts out there in a podcast form. And I was like, I want to do that again, but I want to do it in a more meaningful way, talking about my experience being low vision using audio description, because I didn't really feel like that existed. And luckily, Lee and I met on the Facebook audio description group, and we were like, "Oh, we don't live too far away from each other." And I think Lee was a perfect podcast partner in this because just his bubbly personality, but then also we counterweight each other with the horror and the musical. I feel like it's a really good mesh of things. And he goes to the movies as much as I do. I'm really glad that we were able to have a movie podcast, but also there's a lot more at stake with this one than we're just talking about movies.

Lee Pugsley
Absolutely. I think the thing that's most interesting about this podcast and the way that it's developed over time is that when we first started out, this was probably going to be just one of your standard movie podcasts, and I don't say that in any negative way, but more so a podcast where we review movies on a regular basis, and that was the gist of it. But what's really cool is that it's morphed into something a little more significant in the way that we've been able to advocate for audio description in movie theaters and on streaming services, as well as bringing in audio description professionals to really educate the audience about how audio description is done and so many of the little intricacies around it. And we can still nerd out about movies because ultimately, that's what brought us together, and that's why we started this podcast to begin with. But it definitely caught me by surprise when I look back and see where we're at now versus where we started from, that it's more than just a movie review podcast from the blind perspective.

Alex Howard
Yeah, I think full intentions were at first to just have it be you and I talking about movies and different topics and things like that, which is what I did on Not Quite Hollywood with Jamie. But it's morphed into -- while we still do that, and those are honestly some of my favorite episodes where we are doing our top 10, or we're doing our Mission Impossible episode or something which is just you and I talking, which we do on a weekly basis anyway. It's basically a recorded phone call for us. But I think having the interviews with audio description professionals and making it more than that and really looking into behind the scenes of the audio description, which plays a big part in our enjoyment of movies, has made the show a lot more than I thought it was going to be originally.

Lee Pugsley
I completely agree. I know that both of us have learned a lot about the craft of audio description through the course of this podcast. And it's also been really great because it's opened up conversations and dialogs from other people within the community as well. So as we shift a little more into that and thinking about the impact that this podcast has had, I'm curious to know. What is the impact of this podcast for you personally, your involvement with it?

Alex Howard
So I think I've gone on a really huge journey, actually, looking back that I didn't really realize until this week when we were starting to plan this episode. I think the podcast has really helped me own my blindness, own my disability. I mean, when we first started in February 2023, I wasn't using my cane, my white cane at all. And I think now I'm using it full-time. I'm on a waitlist for a guide dog. I'm being transparent, talking about my eyesight on a podcast and being an accessibility consultant, and just having my cane is obviously putting it out there in public whenever I step out my door also. So I think it's really helped me go on a journey of acceptance and transparency and just come into my own as a legally blind person and own it a lot more than I was.

Lee Pugsley
That is so awesome. And I am really glad to hear that. And from the time that I've known you and when we started this podcast until now, I've definitely seen so much growth in that ownership of your narrative. And it's been so encouraging. And I'm really glad that this podcast has been able to help foster that.

Alex Howard
Yeah. And I think a lot of the credit goes to you as well, because we talk on the phone all the time. And you've been where I was before, so with your encouragement. But I think it's like we wouldn't have this podcast if I wasn't low vision. So I used to kind of feel sorry for myself or wish I wasn't legally blind in that mindset. But I think I'm more in the mindset now of it is what it is and trying to change the world we live in rather than dread what my situation is.

Lee Pugsley
Yeah. I get that. And on that note, it's interesting as I reflect back on the journey of this podcast for me and what the impact has been. It's really made me care more about audio description as a whole, more as an essential part of any film or TV show rather than just, "Oh, that's a nice suggestion if a piece of media has it." But it's really made me want to advocate for audio description for films that I see at film festivals or films in the theater, streaming, you name it. I just think that this should be an essential requirement for all media. And I want to continue being a voice and an advocate to help push accessibility forward because I realized through this podcast what I miss out on in a more significant way if audio description is not present. I thought about it previously, but I don't think I really came to terms with that until we started talking more in-depth about the films that we watch and the films that don't have audio description that cause us to miss out on an experience that everyone else around us is having, and we lose out on those cultural conversations. I know we've touched on that before, but it's definitely made me pay attention more to accessibility in film and made me desire to push it forward on a bigger scale.

Alex Howard
Yeah, I totally agree. I think it, I mean, at least for me, the podcast has also kind of reoriented in my career. I feel like accessibility is where I belong professionally and trying to advocate for AD. There's a lot of work to be done in that, and I feel like I'm trying to do that in my professional life. And I know you did a great job of that with your short film as well.

Lee Pugsley
Thank you. And it's interesting, too, because when we talk about the impact beyond just our own personal lives, but moving more into the professional space like you're talking about, I know for me as a disabled filmmaker, this podcast has been great because it's been a resource to give other people that we'll meet at film festivals who had no idea what audio description is before watching my film or before meeting me. And so I give them our podcast as a piece of education, something that they can learn from when they listen interviews with writers and narrators from The Penguin, The Mandalorian, et cetera. I think it's been very enlightening and insightful for them to learn from, as well as it has been, hopefully, for the rest of our listeners in the blind and low vision communities. But I'm really glad that I have this to offer people to learn and go deeper. For you, do you feel like the podcast has opened up conversations in a professional way that have led to more career advancement?

Alex Howard
I mean, definitely. I think not only knowing Liz Gutman, people at IDC, people at DVW, like Rhys, people at Deluxe, like Anna, and Justin, and Sony, and Christina, we've had so many people from Deluxe on as well. I think not only has it given me more of an appreciation of what they do, and it's funny because we watch something now and I'm like, "Oh, we interviewed them on the podcast." So it's like that personal connection. But at the same time, having that professional connection, too, where I've been more active in quality control with AD and been able to put this on my resume and been able to reach out to people about jobs and things like that. So now I have a whole network of people that work in the audio description fields. The podcast is a lot of fun, but it's also a great way to be like, "Hey, can I talk to you about what you do?" You know what I mean? And basically interview style and really get to know someone.

Lee Pugsley
100%. I relate to that. And what's been really wonderful about interviewing all of these audio description narrators and writers is that now as a filmmaker, when I want to get audio description on any of my films, I know the people to connect with, and the network that I have now that I didn't have before makes it much easier to get audio description done because I have those connections. And whether or not they're the ones that are going to end up doing it, at least they're in the network now. And I love having a network of accessibility available to me.

Alex Howard
Yeah. And even beyond the people working in AD, I mean, people like Ross and Marc and Tristan, and other people who are just blind professionals working in entertainment. Those resources are great to have, not only for professional reasons, but I mean, Ross and I are friends now. Marc, I feel like I can reach out to. Just having the network of blind people behind you as well, people you can talk to about the experience of being blind and all that is really great, too.

Lee Pugsley
It feels very empowering because as we're all in different spaces within the entertainment industry, it's encouraging to know that we're not alone because sometimes in any of our blind journeys, it can feel like we're the only ones that are pursuing the things that we're pursuing, and it just feels lonely. So it's been great to have that support system available. And also realizing that if they can achieve something in the industry, we're also just as capable of doing that. And it inspires me to continue pushing forward.

Alex Howard
Oh, for sure. I definitely can't imagine a world where I'm not talking about movies. On a... I mean, in general, but on a public platform, especially. I love, love doing this. So I mean, I anticipate doing this for a long time.

Lee Pugsley
Likewise. And I think the coolest thing about this podcast and this journey that we've been on is that it's become more meaningful than we expected it to be. I think that initially we knew it was going to be fun, and we knew that there was going to be some insights that we would be able to bring to the table. But I will say that it has actually surpassed my expectations of what I initially expected.

Alex Howard
When we started this, we were like, "Oh, we're talking about things that we know." And then I think as it went, I was like, "Oh, I'm learning a lot as I'm going too," especially with the roundtable. I feel like the roundtables for us have been our biggest episodes with the biggest pop, and I feel like those are so much fun. And it really feels like we're doing something meaningful. When we're pushing that at the same time, Hollywood Reporter's pushing their actor round tables, it really feels like we're making a or at least trying to.

Lee Pugsley
Definitely. And that's a really good segue into looking back on the 49 other episodes that we've done and thinking about the guests or favorite moments that come to mind, and even maybe what we've learned from those guests. So I'm curious to know for you, what comes to mind when we take a look back? What sticks out to you in terms of guests and episodes that really stick out?

Alex Howard
Well, I think the round tables are great, obviously, like I was mentioning. It's funny. Those are so big. We don't actually number those episodes. So technically, this is 52, but we don't number those because we want those to stand out from the other episodes because they're such a big... I mean, it takes a lot for us to put those on as well. It's such a big production where this should be a special thing. Those obviously are great. But Liz Gutman has been a great resource, and she's -- learning from her how to write audio description and just how her brain works. And she's just such a nice person in general, too. I mean, Tristan is awesome because he showed blind people can be all of these different things that he's doing between writing and narrating and sound engineer. I think one of the biggest things I've learned is that blind people can be audio description writers, too. That was really interesting. I think every year we do the roundtable, especially, I think I learned something new because we have so many writers on at the same time. And then even with Ross and Marc, like I mentioned, we learn so much about gaming and writing and all these different aspects of the industry and how Black people can be included. It's been really, really fun. Honestly, I love the more intimate episodes, too. Counting down movies with you. And I mean, top 10 lists are my bread and butter, honestly. But moving beyond that makes the podcast more meaningful. But going back to our roots every so often, and doing that is so much fun.

Lee Pugsley
I couldn't agree more. And similar to you, the episodes that really stand out to me, even though I'm proud of all the episodes we've done and I've really appreciated every guest that's been on the show, are the Oscars Audio Description Roundtable episodes. And for those that may be tuning in for the first time to this, the Oscars Audio Description Roundtable is something that we've done for the past two years, where we've been able to assemble a team of audio description writers and narrators who worked on the best picture Oscar nominated films from that year. And me and Alex moderate that panel, and we just go around and ask them very specific things about the work they did on each film. And one of the things that I've learned through that, as well as the other guests that we've interviewed is how specific and nuanced audio description writing and narrating is, that it's not just a one size fits all sort of thing. There are certain principles and standards that apply to all audio descriptions creation. But each movie or each piece of media is going to have its own specific challenges, its own specific styles. And I guess it's just not something that I thought of previously in that greater detail. And so it's really opened up my eyes to thinking about that. So now when I'm watching a movie, I'll be thinking, "Oh, I bet this was a challenge for them, or this was probably something they had to navigate" where I never used to think about that before.

Alex Howard
Oh, definitely. I think I've become an AD snob, if you want to say. I know within the first few minutes if it's going to be a good track or bad track. The other series that I've really been proud of is our Behind the AD series that we started. I think our first one was Star Wars, and we just did one with the Penguin. And we want to continue to do those because those are really fun, too, where we have the writer and narrator on for a specific project and talk to them in-depth about that, like we did for Nicole and Justin for Star Wars, and then Ren and Dakota for the Penguin.

Lee Pugsley
What's really cool about that, when you get the audio description writer and narrator together, is that oftentimes it can be the first time that they've actually connected in person because their work is done separately, but they're very much aware of who each other is. And so it's even fun to watch them learn from each other and for them to be able to connect with each other on the show.

Alex Howard
Definitely. That's always a lot of fun when they haven't had much interaction in this capacity either. But I think the other great thing that we've been doing is giving the writers a lot more credit than they normally get, because I think a lot of times with audio description, you know, they say "Narrated by this person" and then the company, and that's it. With us shining a light on who actually wrote the words that you're hearing, it's felt really good to give them their moment in the spotlight.

Lee Pugsley
Yeah, they work so hard, and it's something that really deserves to be celebrated way more than it is. And so to your point, I'm really glad that we can celebrate them in the ways that we do here on this podcast and also bring attention to the huge amount of work that they do and how time-consuming it is. And hopefully, that will give people, both blind and sighted, a greater appreciation for the craft of audio description. The other thing that I realized about audio description is I've kind of viewed it more as an artistic process now than I used to, where before it seemed more technical to me. And now there really is an artistry to it. It really is a creative field in and of itself in a lot of ways.

Alex Howard
Oh, for sure. Yeah. I've written or tried to write certain audio description tracks for friends' shorts, and I've taken classes since we started the podcast. It is really hard to do. You have to come up with the most concise way to say something, but you can't repeat that phrase. It's really, really hard. And it's easy to spiral and get in your head when you're trying to write AD for a project. So I have all the respect in the world for audio description writers.

Lee Pugsley
And continuing to reflect on past episodes, the same ones that stuck out to you also stuck out to me in terms of Tristan Snyder, Ross Minor, and Marc Muszynski. Probably the connection that we have with them is because they are blind or low vision, and that really is cool and not something that we see every day. But to be clear, all of the guests that we've had have offered something unique and insightful, and I'm really grateful for everyone that contributed to this podcast thus far and enlightening us with their insights and sharing their craft with us.

Alex Howard
Oh, definitely. I mean, I'm really proud of all the episodes we put out. I will continue to be for all of them.

Lee Pugsley
Moving forward, as we look to where this podcast is headed, what are some ways that you'd like to see growth?

Alex Howard
I'd love to grow our listener interactions. I always love hearing from listeners through email and different things like that. I know we just heard from someone who told us there's a Hundreds of Beavers audio description track in Australia, which was really cool. So I love hearing from our listeners. So I'd love to somehow, I mean, maybe, I don't know how long in the future this would be, but somehow do a live episode at some point, maybe on YouTube or something. I don't know. I would love to have more audience interaction with us. I think also grow our listener base, too. I mean, I know that's every podcaster's dream, but I know we're a very niche subject matter, but it would be great to gain our audience numbers as well. That's not why we do it. I mean, I do it for the love of the game, for sure. I would do it if one person listened or no people listened because it's fun to do. But the more listeners we have, the more opportunities we're going to have. So.

Lee Pugsley
And to that point, I know at the end of every episode, Alex and I are always telling people to email in and let us know what they thought of this episode or to share their favorite movies or any insights they may have on a subject. And we're so grateful for the people that do that. Whenever we see an email from a listener in our inbox, it's like a Christmas gift. It's so exciting to open it because it means that people are engaging with what we're talking about, that it struck a chord with them in some way, and even offering help like the Hundreds of Beavers audio description track that we didn't know existed. So if you ever thought about writing into us or connecting with us, and you might feel shy about it and wonder, "Oh, do we really want to hear from you?" Guaranteed, we really do want to hear from you. And because we love talking about movies, we will be thrilled to hear your top 10 list or your favorite movies of the year so far. So please don't hesitate to connect with us. We fully welcome and are so excited to get your emails.

Alex Howard
Oh, yeah. I haven't even told you. Lee, I actually... I got one in my personal email, too. My friend John, who works at Braille Institute, he emailed in and said how much he loved the episode with Matt and how meaningful it was that Matt describes the moment in Room, the movie Room at the end and the audio description, and he was saying how much that highlights the importance of AD. And I thought that was really great. So, yeah, any time we hear from any of our listeners, it really makes us happy.

Lee Pugsley
One of the other ways that we're looking to grow this podcast is to have what we would call a quarterly check-in about the state of the industry. It's something that other podcasts do, is an industry check-in, where they will just talk about the state of Hollywood, some of the news that's happened in the last couple of months, how that could affect the industry. And we thought it would be fun to do that, not on a regular basis, but on more of a semi-regular basis every couple of months. So we're going to be excited to talk about what's going on in Hollywood and different trends or patterns we see or noteworthy news as well.

Alex Howard
Yeah. So I think we're going to try and do this every six episodes or so because we do every other week. So that would be a quarter.

Lee Pugsley
Another thing we want to bring into the podcast more so is the Blind Film Critics Society. We introduced it earlier this year. And John Stark, who is a a friend of ours. He's been on the podcast with the Christopher Nolan episodes. He's the one who started the Blind Film Critics Society, and we're hoping to grow that, but also to have some more fun with that this next year and talking about the nominations and the awards and hopefully getting everything done on a more timely basis and spread out a little bit more than it was this past year. But we're really excited to see where the Blind Film Critics Society goes, and we're really excited to be a part of it, too.

Alex Howard
Yeah, that'll be a yearly thing that we're doing. It's really exciting because we're hoping to grow that every year as well. Obviously, learn from what we did last year, just like with the roundtables and everything.

Lee Pugsley
The things that still will stay the same is getting guests from the audio description world on for interviews as well as continuing the Oscar's audio description round tables. And we'll just kind of see from there how things morph and develop, but we're always open to ideas. Once again, if you guys have any ideas, we're open to them because we want this to be content that you care about and that really excites you as well.

Alex Howard
Yeah. Let us know what you guys want to hear. Honestly, thank you guys so much for listening every week and staying with us. We couldn't do this without you. So thank all of you for your support. We do get the numbers in every week, and it's like, "Wow, this many people are listening to me? That's crazy." So thank you guys.

Lee Pugsley
I echo what Alex said. Thank you guys so much for all of your support and for being on this journey with us for the last two and a half plus years. It's really been significant, and it really feels nice to know that our voices are being heard and that you guys out there care about what we're talking about because it is meaningful and it also can help shape the future of accessibility in film. So please continue listening. Thank you so much for sharing these episodes with other people. And please continue doing what you're doing. We love you guys. You're awesome.

Alex Howard
Yeah. And I think the last thing that I am thankful the podcast for is an excuse to go to the movies. I mean, I'd go anyway, but now I can say, "I got to do it for the podcast, or I got to do it for work," or whatever it is. So in my mind, I'm justifying being at my favorite place, which is the movie theater. And it's going to something in my life, not just like, ingesting a movie and being like, "Okay, I'm good."

Lee Pugsley
Exactly. Not that we necessarily need an excuse to go to the movies, but it is extra motivation to get us there.

Alex Howard
Oh, for sure. And so with that, I know Lee and I both went to the movies a ton this summer. We're going into the fall-winter movie season. So we wanted to take a look back, like we said we were going to do. We're going to take a look back at the summer movie season. So Lee and I each picked out our five most memorable times at the theater. Lee knows my five. I don't know Lee's five, but we wanted to make sure that we didn't have the same ones. So we each picked our five favorite movie experiences over the summer, and we just thought we'd touch on those before we move on to our game section.

Lee Pugsley
Absolutely. I will go ahead and start with one of mine. I wouldn't say that these are in any particular order, actually, but these are my five most memorable movie experiences of the summer. And I want to emphasize 'most memorable' because that doesn't mean that they're necessarily the Oscar-baby movies. It doesn't mean that they're the five-star movies. It just means that I really had a lot of fun with them. I think when you think about summer movies, it's really all about having a good time. You want to go to the movies in the summer to escape the heat, but also just to relax and enjoy yourself. So one of those movies that really did it for me was F1. I really had such a great time with this movie. I thought that the car racing sequences were spectacular, especially when you're in the Dolby surround sound. It really feels so immersive. I'll be honest and say that the plot is very much like Top Gun Maverick, just with car racing instead of planes. But that worked for me. I had no issue with it. The story is a little predictable. I do know that some people took issue with that, but I just found it a really good time at the movie theater, a great popcorn flick in every way.

Alex Howard
So yeah, I saw F1 as well. It was fun. It's a popcorn movie, for sure. I think it wasn't one of my most memorable, just because if you've seen a sports movie, that trope is in this. But at the same time, the car racing is what you go for with this, and the star power. It's like a Top Gunn Maverick. You feel like you're in the car. The experience of watching it is more than the story.

Lee Pugsley
Well said. And what's one of your favorite summer movies?

Alex Howard
So one of my favorite summer movies was Final Destination: Bloodlines. I had never seen a Final Destination movie before. So I watched the first five, and then I went to see Bloodlines, and I had so much fun. And the audio description is so good, and it describes all the gore so well. And it was just like, it's messed up, but it just it puts a smile on my face. Just the whole the whole time watching it. And then I actually went again. So I saw it twice because I saw it the weekend before it left theaters as well. And I went on a little self-date to take myself to go see it. And it was just as fun the second time. I can't explain why, but it just brings so much joy to me, Final Destination: Bloodlines.

Lee Pugsley
I don't really have anything more to contribute to that, but I fully agree with you. This was a fun movie, and one of those movies that really surprised me by how fun it was.

Alex Howard
So what's your next one?

Lee Pugsley
The next movie that I really I had a good time with was Fantastic Four: First Steps. What I really liked about this movie is the family dynamic, because it's not very often that we've seen, or maybe not at all, that we've seen a Marvel movie that centers around a whole family. I thought that it was very well cast. I thought the score was great. Visually, it looked really cool with the retro vintage period style. And it really just hit on an emotional level as well as having some really good action sequences. I know that for some they wish that there were more action sequences. I think it's a really good foundation for where they could go from here.

Alex Howard
I completely agree. I had a lot of fun with this one, too. It's a shame it didn't make more money, but... It didn't do bad, but it didn't do like Marvel money or what used to be Marvel money. But yeah, I saw this one twice as well. It's a lot of fun. I think it's certainly the best Fantastic Four movie. But in terms of quality, I think Marvel has found their stride again.

Lee Pugsley
It does seem that way for sure. I mean, it's been a really good summer for superhero movies, and I will throw the ball back to you because I know one of your other movies on your list is a superhero movie.

Alex Howard
Yeah. So the other one on my list is Superman. DC is going to have the highest grossing superhero movie of the year for the first time in a long time. So Superman was my most anticipated movie of the year. So I saw it three times in theaters. I went to the Early Access one where I had to pay for my ticket. Then I went with friends. Then I took my mom to see it again. And it's so much fun. I really love the interview scene. It's not in my favorites of the year, but it's one of the most fun I've seen this year so far. I think Act 2 is a little iffy, but I really loved Act 1. I really love Act 3. It was a great introduction to this universe that James Gunn is building. I'm excited to see where the DCU goes from here.

Lee Pugsley
It was a really fresh movie in a lot of different ways, and I do think that there's a strong future for where it's going to go. And it also just felt like the epitome of a summer movie.

Alex Howard
Oh, definitely. I mean, every screening I saw of it was packed, but especially that early fan screening on Tuesday night, that was crazy because obviously it's all super fans in there. So they're cheering and everything. It was the epitome of summer. You're right.

Lee Pugsley
Well, one of my other favorite movies of the summer, and sticking with the letter F, I suppose, since I have F1 and Fantastic Four, would be Freakier Friday. I think that Jamie Lee Curtis and Lindsay Lohan really carried that movie. The chemistry that we love from them in the initial Freaky Friday from 2003 is still very strong here. And the cast as a whole did a fantastic job. There's a lot of body switching and a lot of comedic beats that they have to play, and they did it so well. And for those that are fans of the original Freaky Friday, I think that this version captures the same tone and the same spirit while bringing a freshness and a little bit of depth to the family dynamics. I had a lot of fun with this one.

Alex Howard
That is actually one that I did not get to, and it's still out, so maybe I'll go see it.

Lee Pugsley
Highly recommend it.

Alex Howard
So my next one is is Sorry, Baby. So this one, I'll give you guys a little preview if you want to check it out before our top 10s of the year. I'm pretty sure it'll be in there. We'll see. I mean, we still have a few months left, so we'll see what happens. But I absolutely love this movie. I really knew nothing going in. I went to the Q&A down at the Grove, took myself on a self-date for this one, too, and was like, I want to see the director Q&A after. It's funny. It's weird because it's a tough watch, but it's also funny. They take a really dark subject matter, and somehow you're emotional during the movie, but then you're also laughing. So that's what I really like about it, how it really blended the sadness and the laughter together.

Lee Pugsley
Yeah, it did that remarkably well and a really good directorial debut as well.

Alex Howard
So what's your next one, Lee?

Lee Pugsley
Next on my list, moving out of the letter F, we are going to go with The Naked Gun. This movie was a blast. It's one of my favorite comedies I've seen in quite a while. I thought it was hilarious. It's very much a specific type of humor. Liam Neeson was the perfect actor to carry this film. He did it so well. He has great comedic timing, great delivery. And there were so many good one-liners in this film that it was just a blast from start to finish.

Alex Howard
Oh, totally. I mean, this really captured the same humor as the original, which I wasn't sure if it was going to work in a modern day setting, but it totally works. It was a lot of fun.

Lee Pugsley
I will definitely be rewatching this one. And yeah, what's next for you?

Alex Howard
The next one for me, which I'm not going to go into too much detail, but once again, if you want to try and check this one out, we will be talking about it in future episodes. The Life of Chuck was another Q&A that I went to, and the director was there, Mark Hamill was there, which was a surprise. Chiwetel Ejiofor was there, and Tom Hiddleston was there as well. This movie was outstanding. I mean, it won TIFF 2024. It won the Audience Award there. It's a real shame this didn't do better at the box office because it really is a great movie.

Lee Pugsley
Yeah, really charming, really well made all around. The way that it tells the story without giving away any spoilers is very effective. And I wish this movie would have got more attention because it really deserves it. And if you haven't seen it yet and you're going to watch it, I would say the less you know about it, the better. Just let it be a surprise and you won't be disappointed.

Alex Howard
Exactly. That's why I'm like, "I can't really say anything." So, yeah, just trust us. Just go watch Life of Chuck. It's great.

Lee Pugsley
Well, last on my list for the summer movies is Bring Her Back. I wasn't really sure what to expect, and I always am a little hesitant when you hear about a movie centering on a character with a disability, specifically a blind character. I thought that they handled the disability component of this very well. For the most part, it was very believable, and I thought that the narrative itself was suspenseful, and they did a really good job with this movie.

Alex Howard
Yeah, and the audio description was really interesting, too, on this one, because since there was a blind character, they had to be pretty on top of their stuff.

Lee Pugsley
Yeah, the audio description track really did amplify the action that was going on in a very positive way.

Alex Howard
It was a dark movie, too, because it was from the Directors of Talk To Me, and so I really like to Bring Her Back. I don't know if I'm going to rewatch it because it was... I mean, it's a depressing movie, but it is good. You're just like, "Oh." Afterwards, you're like, "Wow, I need a donut or ice cream or something."

Lee Pugsley
Yeah, for sure. And it has some surprisingly deep themes embedded in there as well.

Alex Howard
Oh, for sure. Yeah. And you got the authentic casting as well.

Lee Pugsley
So we're making progress in that regard. We still have a ways to go, but it's nice to see that we're moving in the right direction. And then, Alex, what's your last movie of the summer?

Alex Howard
Well, that's cool because both of our last ones are horror. So my last one was Weapons. I wasn't huge on Barbarian, but I really, really loved Weapons. So So once again, this is another movie that you don't want to know much about before going in. But if you like horror, if you like an auteur, like, original story, go check out Weapons. It is fantastic.

Lee Pugsley
It's a really strong film, definitely the stronger of the two films between this one and Barbarian. And yeah, the less you know about it, the better. But the storytelling is really interesting.

Alex Howard
And a lot of these, I think, are streaming now. I think Superman is on HBO Max, Final Destination is on HBO Max, F1 should be on Apple soon. I don't know when. Yeah, if you want to let us know what your favorite movies of the summer were, we would love to hear from you. And let us know what you thought of our picks. And so now that we finish our summer look back, we're going to bring on Jamie Gagnon on. He has been our editor for the longest... He hasn't done all the episodes, but I think you've done about 25 of them or so. What do you think, Jamie?

Jamie Gagnon
I would say... I'm trying to think. I've done probably... I know the back half for sure, but then I've done a lot since episode 5 on.

Alex Howard
But Jamie is sighted. So we wanted to get Jamie's thoughts on the podcast and how if he's learned anything and just working with us and his thoughts on everything.

Jamie Gagnon
Hello. Thanks for having me back.

Lee Pugsley
Welcome back. Yeah, Glad to have you back.

Jamie Gagnon
So it's weird being on this side of the microphone again. It's been a while. 

Alex Howard
So for those of you who don't know, Jamie and I had a podcast before, and that's when I caught the podcast bug. So now he's back on this episode. And I think you've been on another one of -- you were in an episode in the beginning, right?

Jamie Gagnon
Yeah, it was episode seven about the writer's strike.

Alex Howard
Okay, cool. So yeah, Jamie, what have you gleaned from editing and just being on the other side of things?

Jamie Gagnon
As a sighted person, I've had my eyes open to the world of audio description. And I say that having experienced it before with you, we we used to live together, but the education I've received so far in the format has been very eye-opening. The community is mighty, and it seems like it's growing by the day, and like you had spoke about on your episode with Matt, there are more and more films being released with the audio description every year, every decade. And I love how this podcast acknowledges the history of it and the growth of it. And it's also inclusive for sighted people as well. You guys speak about general film topics as a film lover. You dive into the specifics of the craft, and also, of course, all the audio description details that are there or not there. It's also interesting learning the behind the scenes with the wonderful panel of writers and narrators for audio description you guys had on the show so far. I think you guys have done a great job at celebrating audio description and its community.

Alex Howard
Thanks, Jamie. Yeah, it's been a lot of fun.

Lee Pugsley
And we really appreciate all of your support, Jamie, and you've been our most consistent editor. You always do such a fantastic job. I would be curious to know in the episodes that you've edited, or maybe it's one that you haven't edited, do you have a favorite episode or one that just really stands out to you for whatever reason?

Jamie Gagnon
There are a handful. I mean, I love the more intensive, like the audio description round tables were really interesting as a listener. But as an editor, it was really fun to have many voices come together and make a cohesive story. The behind the AD series was really cool to get the nitty-gritty of the AD tracks for these different shows, like the Mandalorian and Penguin, which I just finally watched, by the way, thanks to your show. I also, in terms of individual episodes, I love the Daruma episode with Tobias and John. That was really eye-opening. And of course, the most recent episode, Matt. And also Matt, hello. Hi back.

Lee Pugsley
Yeah, all good choices. And we're so proud of every episode. So thank you once again.

Alex Howard
That's awesome. I love that Jamie named some different ones than we named, too. See, I totally forgot about Daruma. We've done 50 of them, so I can't think of all them off the top of my head.

Jamie Gagnon
I mean, yeah, technically, I think you did, what, 53? We had a couple that were not numbered, the roundtables, I think.

Alex Howard
Yeah.

Lee Pugsley
Well, now that we have you on, Jamie, we thought it would be fun to play a few games to close out our 50th episode. And we had mentioned before that games are something we want to try implementing into the show on a more regular basis, maybe not every episode. So let's go ahead and have a little bit of fun and try some movie games. Jamie, I will let you go ahead and intro the first game that we'll be playing.

Jamie Gagnon
So the first game we're playing is the IMDb game made famous by Doug Loves Movies. I know he got it from some other podcast years ago, but it's pretty simple. One of us would name an actor or actress, and we have to try to guess what their four "known for" roles are in their front page. The trick is, some actors have chosen their own top four. Most times it's just automated. And sometimes it has some really weird choices because, for example, if I said Bradley Cooper where he's directed a lot as well as acted. So some of those are weighted differently. I'm not sure if it's based on rankings or I don't know how the algorithm decides it. But each person takes turns guessing the top four. And for every one you get right, you get a point.

Lee Pugsley
Sounds easy enough. Alex, why don't you kick us off?

Alex Howard
So the actor I chose is Ben Stiller. So, Jamie, can you name the four known for us for Ben Stiller?

Jamie Gagnon
Ben Stiller is one of those people who have a lot of directing roles as well. I'm going to guess, and TV shows are also part of it. So I'm going to guess Severance; Zoolander; There's Something About Mary; and Night at the Museum.

Alex Howard
So you got two of the four. Do you want to know what two?

Jamie Gagnon
Sure.

Alex Howard
Zoolander, and There's Something About Mary, are the two that you got. So Lee, can you get the other two?

Lee Pugsley
Jamie, the ones that you mentioned were actually the four that I was going to mention. But now that...

Jamie Gagnon
Wow.

Lee Pugsley
Now that two of those are incorrect, I will say the other two would be Dodgeball and Meet the Parents.

Alex Howard
No, neither of those.

Jamie Gagnon
Wow. So what were they?

Alex Howard
So Zoolander 2 and Tropic Thunder.

Jamie Gagnon
Oh, okay.

Lee Pugsley
Oh, Tropic Thunder.

Alex Howard
Yeah, I was surprised you guys didn't just guess Tropic Thunder. But yeah, Zoolander 2 is a weird one because it's like, clearly, he didn't choose these because I don't know that he would have chosen Zoolander 2.

Jamie Gagnon
Yeah, the algorithm is funny like that. I think it's because it was the last he acted in. He's been done with acting after that movie, I heard.

Alex Howard
Yeah.

Jamie Gagnon
All right, Lee, your actor is Ryan Reynolds.

Lee Pugsley
Ryan Reynolds. Okay. I will go with Deadpool; Just Friends; Free Guy. And I'm blanking on a fourth one right now, even though it's going to come to me as soon as I get this, and Alex is probably going to get it right. But I will have to go with Deadpool and Wolverine. So, Deadpool; Deadpool and Wolverine; Just Friends; and Free Guy.

Jamie Gagnon
So you have two right. You have Deadpool and Deadpool and Wolverine. Alex, do you want to try to steal?

Alex Howard
The Proposal. And... What was the one on Netflix called? I'm going to go with The Proposal and Deadpool 2.

Jamie Gagnon
Deadpool 2 is correct. It's a weird top four because Deadpool 2, then Deadpool, and then Deadpool and Wolverine.

Alex Howard
Was it Waiting?

Jamie Gagnon
No, his fourth one is actually one of his most interesting roles was Buried.

Lee Pugsley
Oh, wow.

Lee Pugsley
Oh, wow. That is a weird one.

Alex Howard
Wow. Okay.

Lee Pugsley
So my turn. And your actress is Julia Roberts.

Alex Howard
This is not a good one for me because I haven't seen very many Julia Roberts movies. Pretty Woman. See, I couldn't even name. Isn't she in one of the Oceans movies? I'm going to say Oceans 13. I can't remember her Netflix one, what that's called. I'm going to go with those two. Are those two on there?

Lee Pugsley
You got one of them, Pretty Woman.

Alex Howard
Okay. Jamie, can you fill in the other three?

Jamie Gagnon
I feel like... I don't know if Oceans 13. I would say Oceans 11 would be on there. Maybe... Oh, Erin Brockovich, probably on there.

Alex Howard
Erin Brockovich. That's right. I just watched that this year.

Jamie Gagnon
I'm trying to think what else. Was she a voice in something? Usually, animation gets pushed up there. I mean, I guess I'll say Ocean's 12. It might be down there.

Lee Pugsley
All good guesses. You did get one more. You got Erin Brockovich.

Jamie Gagnon
Okay, nice.

Lee Pugsley
The other two were Notting Hill and My Best Friend's Wedding, both late '90s rom-coms.

Jamie Gagnon
Oh, okay.

Alex Howard
Yeah, see, I would have never gotten those.

Lee Pugsley
Well, we all learned something. I think that the IMDb "known for" are always really interesting.

Alex Howard
Yeah. Okay. So our next game is one that I saw on TikTok, actually. So basically, we're going to pick something in the IMDb Top 250. We each have a movie picked out. Then the other two are going to work together. They have 10 questions, yes or no questions, to try and figure out what the movie is. And so all of these movies have audio description. Mine is number 152 on the IMDb Top 250. So let's start with Lee. You want to ask your first question?

Lee Pugsley
Is this a movie that was released from 2000 to 2025?

Alex Howard
Yes.

Jamie Gagnon
This is a very common occurrence in the list I was researching earlier. Does it start with the word 'the'?

Alex Howard
No.

Jamie Gagnon
Because there's like half of them do. It's crazy.

Alex Howard
That's a good question. No, it doesn't.

Lee Pugsley
Is this movie a drama?

Alex Howard
Yes. You could qualify it.

Jamie Gagnon
Has the lead actor or actress won an Oscar?

Alex Howard
I don't believe so.

Lee Pugsley
Has this movie received any Oscar nominations in any category?

Alex Howard
See, I need to look this up because it was nominated for one Oscar.

Jamie Gagnon
So it's between 2025. It was nominated for an Oscar. The lead actor--

Alex Howard
Best Cinematography at the Oscars.

Jamie Gagnon
Oh, okay. Is the filmmaker foreign? Meaning not from America?

Alex Howard
Yes.

Jamie Gagnon
Okay.

Lee Pugsley
To help narrow it down, even though I thought there could be a better question, is this a movie that was released within the last five years?

Alex Howard
No.

Lee Pugsley
Okay.

Jamie Gagnon
Is the director French?

Alex Howard
I believe so. Yeah, I think so. I think you know the director.

Jamie Gagnon
Well, that's the problem. He has three movies on there, but four maybe. Okay.

Lee Pugsley
Is this movie an English language film?

Alex Howard
Yeah.

Jamie Gagnon
Does the film star Hugh Jackman?

Alex Howard
It does star Hugh Jackman. I don't even know what question we're on. Yes. I'm pretty sure that... Yeah, it does star Hugh Jackman. I think that was the 10th question.

Jamie Gagnon
Okay, so can I make a guess then?

Alex Howard
Yeah.

Jamie Gagnon
Is it Prisoners?

Alex Howard
It is Prisoners. Good job.

Lee Pugsley
Damn. Nice. Once you said Hugh Jackman, that was the key that I needed as well. I was like, "That's it."

Jamie Gagnon
And Denis has, I think, at least three movies. I don't know, I don't want to give away anybody else's, but Incendies, this, and Dune Part Two, I think.

Alex Howard
Nice. That's great. All right. So which one of you wants to go next? This is a good one. I like this.

Lee Pugsley
Jamie, it's your turn. Take it away. Okay.

Jamie Gagnon
I'll give you the number.

Alex Howard
I almost said number 100, but I thought Lee would have memorized the big number, so I was like, I can't do 100.

Lee Pugsley
That's a very fair assumption. I did not have time to memorize anything on this list. Although if I put my mind to it, I'm sure I could have.

Jamie Gagnon
All right. My film is number 235.

Alex Howard
Oh, wow.

Jamie Gagnon
Who wants to start the question? Alex?

Alex Howard
Did the film come out after the year 2000?

Jamie Gagnon
No.

Lee Pugsley
Was this film Oscar nominated?

Jamie Gagnon
Yes.

Alex Howard
Is the film a Disney property?

Jamie Gagnon
No.

Alex Howard
That's pretty rare to have a movie before the year 2000 that's audio-described that's not Disney. That really narrows it down, actually.

Lee Pugsley
Did this film come out between 1980 and 2000?

Jamie Gagnon
No. What?

Alex Howard
Is this director considered an auteur?

Jamie Gagnon
No.

Lee Pugsley
Is this director well known?

Jamie Gagnon
I would say probably not. No.

Alex Howard
Would you consider this movie a classic movie?

Jamie Gagnon
Yes.

Lee Pugsley
Is this movie a black and white film?

Jamie Gagnon
Yes. I have to say no, it's not.

Alex Howard
See, I knew it. I knew it. Yeah, you did. Is it Wizard of Oz?

Jamie Gagnon
Yeah, that's it. It's so hard. That was such a literal black and white question. I couldn't get.

Lee Pugsley
That's a tough answer. Yeah.

Jamie Gagnon
It's one of the few from that era that are AD-described.

Alex Howard
Nice. That's awesome.

Lee Pugsley
Nice. Good pick.

Alex Howard
All right, Lee, what's yours?

Lee Pugsley
Okay. Mine is number 225 on the IMDb top 250 list.

Alex Howard
All right. Jamie, do you want to start the questioning?

Jamie Gagnon
Yeah. Was this film released before 1980?

Lee Pugsley
Before 1980? No.

Alex Howard
Was is it released before 2010?

Lee Pugsley
No.

Jamie Gagnon
So I guess it's modern. Um. Is this film considered a drama?

Lee Pugsley
Yes.

Alex Howard
Was it Oscar nominated?

Lee Pugsley
Yes.

Jamie Gagnon
Is the director well known?

Lee Pugsley
Let me check on that. Is the director well known? The answer to that question is no.

Alex Howard
Okay.

Jamie Gagnon
2010 drama, Oscar nominated, not a very well known director.

Alex Howard
Is the star an A-lister?

Lee Pugsley
Yes.

Alex Howard
Is the star a household name?

Lee Pugsley
Yes, I would say, but maybe not as big as some others.

Jamie Gagnon
So not every household. Alex's household? Yes.

Lee Pugsley
But I would say that most people nowadays would know the name.

Jamie Gagnon
All right, let's try to narrow down some more of that. Was the movie released after 2020?

Lee Pugsley
No.

Jamie Gagnon
Okay, so it's in that decade.

Alex Howard
Does the movie start with the word 'the'?

Lee Pugsley
No.

Jamie Gagnon
Is the lead actor not from the United States?

Lee Pugsley
No.

Jamie Gagnon
Sorry, that was a double negative. So he is from the United States?

Alex Howard
Correct.

Jamie Gagnon
Okay.

Alex Howard
Is the lead of the movie a male?

Lee Pugsley
No. One final question. Use it wisely.

Jamie Gagnon
All right. So it's a female lead. 2010s.

Alex Howard
I think we can talk among you and me, Jamie. I'm thinking I, Tonya, but I don't know that that's in the top 250.

Jamie Gagnon
It's not. Um... Oh, is it a one-word title?

Lee Pugsley
Yes.

Jamie Gagnon
Is it Room?

Lee Pugsley
Yes.

Alex Howard
Wow. Nice job.

Jamie Gagnon
Nice. I'm glad I looked at the list over. I can't memorize it, but I'm glad I looked at it.

Alex Howard
Wow. Yeah, yeah.

Jamie Gagnon
Whew! That's close.

Alex Howard
Yeah. Damn, I didn't think we were going to get that at all.

Lee Pugsley
Well done. Well done.

Alex Howard
Thanks. Well, this was really fun. Let us know, you guys, if you have any game suggestions, any topic suggestions. Like we said, we have done 50 of these. We love doing it. We want to keep doing it, and we want to hear from all of you to know what you guys want to hear. So let us know. Give us some feedback. And if you want to contact us, you can email us at DarkRoomFilmCast@gmail.com. That is DarkRoomFilmCast@gmail.com. You can also follow us @DarkRoomFilmCast on Instagram.

Lee Pugsley
And we also want to take a moment, once again, to thank everyone who's been such a great supporter of this podcast, including Jamie, who's here right now, being a fantastic editor, all of our other editors in the past as well. We also want to thank Matt Lauterbach and All Senses Go for making transcripts of all of our episodes available and making this podcast accessible in many ways. And we want to thank Ben Fox and BlindCAN for his support with our podcast as well. And once again, Jamie, Alex and I just want to thank you so much for being part of this show today, but also for all your support from the very beginning. It really means a lot. And if there's anything that you would like to plug, feel free to take the moment to do so.

Jamie Gagnon
All right, great. Well, I'm on every social media thing @GuyOnAWire, but I'm also doing a couple of other things. I'm financing a feature right now, trying to get a feature made next year in my home state of Maine. And I also run a daily YouTube channel called Minute of Zen, which is just like a chill, relaxing video every day. And that's @MinuteOfZenYT on all the social medias.

Lee Pugsley
Awesome. We will go ahead and link those things below. And with everything going on in the world today, everyone could use a moment of relaxation. So...

Jamie Gagnon
That's why I started.

Alex Howard
Yeah. [overlapping with Lee, inaudible] ...Is like ASMR and stuff, too.

Jamie Gagnon
Yeah. Unfortunately, it's harder for low vision people, I will say that, because there are a lot of audible enjoyments, and there's a playlist just for audible enjoyments, but some of the stuff is visual, so it's hard to... may not be for everybody, unfortunately.

Lee Pugsley
Well, everyone, go ahead and check that out. And thank you guys so much for listening once again. It's an honor to be able to say that we've done 50 podcast episodes, and we will see you back here next time on The Dark Room.

Alex Howard
Take care, guys.