Ep. 61: Close Up With Colleen Connor, Founder, Audio Description Training Retreats

Alex and Lee chat with Colleen Connor, co-founder of Audio Description Training Retreats, who discusses their journey with blindness and their work in audio description. We explore the craft of AD and how their immersive retreats are helping train the next generation of describers.

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Transcript

Lee Pugsley
Hey everyone, and welcome back to another episode of The Dark Room, where two blind cinephiles illuminate the sighted. I'm Lee Pugsley.

Alex Howard
I'm Alex Howard.

Lee Pugsley
And this is a podcast hosted by two legally blind guys for film lovers of all abilities. And today we are very excited about our special guest. We're going to dive into some really cool conversation topics here. And Alex, I'll pass it over to you to introduce who we have on the show today.

Alex Howard
Today we have Colleen Connor. They are the co-founder and director of Audio Description Training Retreats. I took their class, I think, about a year ago, and it was a total blast. So welcome, Colleen.

Colleen Connor
[sing-song] Thank you. I'm very excited to be here.

Lee Pugsley
We're so excited to have you too, because we've heard your name floating around from Anna and other people that we've had on the podcast. So it's great that you're finally here and we can dive into the work that you do, kind of hear about your journey into audio description, and then hear more about the Audio Description Training Retreats and just the landscape of audio description in the industry and where we're at with that. So, looking forward to just diving in. And for starters, let's just go ahead and start with a question that we like to ask all of our guests. What is your journey with blindness and how did that lead you to the field of audio description?

Colleen Connor
Oh boy. Okay, so I'm gonna be as succinct as I can. My journey with blindness and with audio description is quite interesting. I was diagnosed with cone rod dystrophy when I was 5. Both my eldest sister and myself had eye problems, and the optometrist—so somebody who's going to give you glasses—was like, "There's something wrong with their retinas, but I can't tell." And so we ended up at Johns Hopkins, which is a hospital in Maryland, um, very prestigious, like genetic research there. And this would have been in the '90s. So I was diagnosed with that, and they asked my parents like, oh, they're related, like as related as you can get, can we study them? And my parents were like, absolutely not. So, uh, we didn't do a bunch of genetic stuff, and I really I really didn't know much about my blindness. Like, I really just kind of led my life like I thought everybody saw like this, or like, just, I just asked things. Like, I, I never knew my sight was different until high school. And I was doing okay, um, but I started like running into things. And I'd always never been able to ride a bike or something because I'd— anything in the center of my vision, if it was my reaction time wasn't fast enough.

So I got hit in the face with a lot of different sports— sports balls. And I had glasses, but they only did so much. And so I started losing my vision significantly. And I was like, hey, I can't read this. I think I'm starting to do bad in school because I can't see. And my parents sort of had a, you know, a little talk with me and I had to figure out how to get Individual Education Plan and like get teachers and stuff to start accommodating me. And that was really the first time that you just have to become a self-advocate, especially... I was the only blind person in my entire high school. I graduated in a class of 800 people. So I mean, it wasn't like they knew what to do with me, especially because I was quote unquote sighted for 2 years. And then like all of a sudden you're using a cane and stuff, like what is going on? So my retina has continued to deteriorate over time. And as much as I wanna be like, I decided to learn everything blindfolded, like I was, you know, I just learn it like I'm totally blind and not have to relearn it, I... Your brain doesn't do that. It is so difficult to not use every single inch of your vision that you have.

And what's interesting is each year in the past, like 4 or 5 years, I've said like, wow, this must be, like I've lost almost all of it. And then the next year and the next year, I've said the same thing every year. And so I'm like, huh, it's such a strange journey to explain to people, like, visual impairment. And even though my, my sister and I were related, you know, we have completely different experiences with being low vision. I will say I pretty much don't have any usable vision at this point. And because of Charles Bonnet Syndrome, I also hallucinate because my brain used to be able to see better. And so it makes stuff up because it's bored. [laughs] So it's, it's been a journey, especially this year. I've been more angry and like just being real about it. I've been like angry and very, um, it doesn't help with like my other disabilities. And I didn't think my proprioception, like my sense of where I am, would be so affected. I already had like balance issues and stuff, and now I'll be in my own apartment and I will turn to the right and then I have no idea where I am.

I'm like, I'm going to the bathroom, and I will be in the kitchen. I will end up hitting the fridge in the kitchen like, okay. Fine. And I've just gotten to a place of being very frustrated about a lot of things. And it's weird because I'm a, you know, like, I'm a professional blind person. [takes on authoritative voice] "I can't be affected by this. I have to be a good example." So yeah, my blindness journey has been kind of, I wanted to like be proactive and be a good example to people and like, you can only prepare so much and certainly emotionally and psychologically, you don't know till you're there. So that's kind of my blindness journey.

What's interesting, if you noticed, I didn't say audio description in any of that, and it's because I'm from Northern Virginia, right near D.C., which is one of the founding cities of audio description. The Washington Ear, Metropolitan Washington Ear, was founded by Margaret Pfanstiehl, and it started out as a volunteer radio reading service. And so it is one of the founding cities of AD for live performance. At the time, I had, um, worked at the Kennedy Center for the Performing Arts. I, uh, had seen shows there my whole life. I even got like a Braille program a couple times just because they saw me. And I graduated from college with a Bachelor of Music degree in musical theater. I was in London at the National because I studied at the London Dramatic Academy. And this was when I was 20. And I was losing my vision since I was 5. But I really— 14 is really when I started significantly needing stuff. And so I was in London and someone came up from the National and they were like, [in British accent] "Oh, hello, you're here to see the show. Would you like the audio description?" And I was like, I'm— And I was, you know, 20 with my friends who were in the program with me and I had my cane and stuff, but I didn't wanna be separated. I didn't know what it was. So I was like, I don't wanna be like separated from everybody. I was like, "Oh no, that's okay." And they're like, [British accent again] "Oh, you sure? It's, you know, it's for those who are blind and low vision." And I was like, all I could think was they're gonna like separate me and I'm gonna go in some room and they're gonna be like, "This is for disability people." So I was just like, I'm just not even gonna go there.

I didn't even look it up. Like, I didn't. It totally left my mind. And then post-college, I got a job at the International Spy Museum, and that's where I was working. And I had started a podcast about the blind experience and my YouTube channel and just my little— it was 2011, my little Colleen-ness, just trying to be like, this is the blind experience. I'm shouting it into the ether.

Alex Howard
I think we can relate to that a little bit.

Colleen Connor
Yeah, yeah. It's so weird. And so I started working at the museum and I noticed twice what happened was a blind person had come in and come to the desk and said like, oh, I want to come to the museum. And they were like, oh, if you want a tour, yeah, like the best way to do it is kind of you have to schedule it at least 2 weeks in advance. And I thought to myself, what? Like, somebody just came into the museum and you're like, no, you can't come here. Like, what? I was like, don't you have— do you guys have an audio tour? And they said, well, we have an audio description tour, but you have to schedule someone to give it. And you have like a microphone and they have like a little headset and you walk around with them and you read the script. And I was like, you don't have like one of those, like, phones? 'Cause I was thinking of the Portrait Gallery, or like art, or, you know, I'd been to Stonehenge and stuff where you type in "A5" to hear more about, you know. And so the little telephone thing, or the little receiver thing.

So I was like, "You don't have an audio version?" And they were like, "No." And so I said, "Can I see the script?" And I read through it, and it was a little out of date. And I was like, huh, this is, uh, interesting. And I looked at who wrote it and it was Joel Snyder. And so I was like, hmm, who's Joel Snyder? So I looked that up and he came and did a workshop at, uh, Spy Museum just to kind of raise awareness of AD. And I was sitting there like, wait, they have this for other stuff? 'Cause I thought it was museums. And so I realized that–– I was 22 at that point in one of the founding cities of audio description, and I had no idea what audio description was. I'd never heard of it. No one ever told me. I— my eye doctor didn't know what it was. My rehab counselor, Blindness Services, did not know what audio description was. So I just was blown away by that. And I was like, "Oh, this is absolutely— unacceptable." So I was like, what is this? And I went to the movie theater, and I think the first thing I saw where— and I just bawled in the movie theater, uh, was The Avengers, the first Avengers film, I think.

Alex Howard
Oh, nice. With audio description?

Colleen Connor
Yeah, the first time I saw something with AD, and I just was— I mean, I'd been missing so much for so long. Can't read comic books, can't— all the fandom stuff that I, that I really loved, I just–– You think like, again, you just with blindness, you don't know. And like, you don't know what's out there. Oftentimes it's a little isolating experience because I was the only blind person I knew. And then the couple, like, technology things that I went to, I didn't like blind people. They were awkward and like socially weird and like, I just, you'd run into stuff and it was like, oh my gosh, like, I'm so much more elegant than this. Like what is happening? Oh my God. [giggles] Um, because at the time I just didn't— I was like, all— most people are older. And so there was no one my age that I'd met. And so it was just like, whoa, what is happening? And so I, I just was like, oh my God, there's this thing. Like, that was like a professional. Like, that was like a voice artist. I was like, this is like another track on the thing.

And so in 2015, I took Joel Snyder's Institute. And he actually was like, yeah, you can come as a consultant. And so I was like, cool. And the class was— there were quite a few people in the class. I think it was like 20-some. And I was— I noticed that it was a lot of like, it was a good introduction to things. And I was like, this man has, like, significantly brought awareness to this art form. And I was like, you know, he has so much experience. But the training itself, I was like, huh, no, no, we don't get to talk to each other at all. It takes place during the American Council of the Blind conference. And so in that setting, again, there's structure. You have to have structure. It's a huge, you know, thing where they're doing different talks and stuff. So it's a hotel, and I wasn't staying at the hotel, I was commuting. And so, you know, you have a 10-minute break during class, and then there's a lunch. But you know, you're at a conference, there's like little— you got to go to a buffet thing and then people have rooms, but whatever.

And so I started talking to this one lady there named Jan Vulgaropulos, and she was a veteran, um, theater describer from North Carolina, and she was involved in Arts Access. And at the— towards the end of the training, she said, um, which was very nice, she said, "You are the best thing that has happened in this training." And she was like, I want to keep in touch and everything. And we started talking about how there's not a lot of continuing education. And I was like, I'm trying to find anything in America. Like, what happened? Like, we started this thing and then where? And, you know, I noticed Joel Snyder, his degree was from, you know, Spain or Brazil. There was nothing in the States. And I was like, what is going on? And I don't think you can learn audio description without doing it. And I think if you only know one part of audio description, especially in the film and television industry, you only know part of it. And so you might be only voicing something and you still don't realize what you're voicing, or like, you're writing, but you're a screenwriter, so you just threw yourself in there.

Like, it was such a weird field that was organically developed all over the place. And I was like, what happened? Other countries, like, have ways of doing this too. Holy crap. But a lot of the academic research was, was in other languages. And Jan and I started doing a bunch of research and then in 2015 we said, we can't find the training we're looking for, let's make it. And so one of the things that I, that I noted was there was always like blind consultants for training. But I didn't know any blind people who led the trainings. And I was like, why didn't— why aren't they equal? And so the first thing we decided was like, I'm, you know, I'm legally blind, and Jan was a sighted describer, and we just made it up as we went. And our first group of people, I think that people are so like starved for training that we just very quickly, in these in-person trainings that we planned, like little retreat getaways for like a weekend, um, we almost right away had people from all over the world. So it was, it was this really unique experience that of course then I made a virtual experience because like everyone else in the pandemic, that's what happened.

But yeah, my, my, my blindness journey has kind of been— it's that constant re-grieving process and the constant, like, this ends up being the sprinkles or the last straw on the sundae of life. You know, you just get frustrated and frustrated, and then you're like, also, I can't see. Bah! And AD was— it's so weird. It's like I said, I started in museums, really. So, yeah.

Alex Howard
I totally identify with a lot of the things you're saying about, like— because I, in the last 5 years, transitioned from having a invisible disability to now using my cane and being visible. That's a really hard transition to do. And then also like you being like, why is everyone blind old? Like, I want a younger, you know, community of people. And, you know, luckily I found that with support groups and I met Lee and other people. But at first you're like, you know, there's no one like me. And so it's very isolating. I identify with a lot of what you're saying.

Lee Pugsley
And to piggyback off of that too, you know, well, first of all, thank you so much for being so vulnerable with your journey. I think that there's so many things that are relatable. And, you know, one of the things that I think you brought up too is just the idea of like, oh, like I'm the blind person. I have to be strong and have to prove to everyone that like I can do it. But it's like all of us, sometimes we're just human too. And even though there are certain moments where, you know, people will be like, oh, you make it look so easy. And I'm like, That's an illusion. I mean, there are very specific challenges and I understand that you may not get those 'cause you don't live in my shoes and that's totally okay. But to keep it real, like as much as we can make it look, like, "easier," look like it's very manageable, there's so many frustrating things about it. And I think for anyone dealing with a disability or just, you know, it's very important to be honest and to just confront those things and to give ourselves the space to grieve those things and to feel like we don't have to live up to this perception or that perception, to make sure that we have the space to just be human and just to feel what we feel. And then we figure out a way to work through it, as with anything. And I think that's so important though.

Colleen Connor
I think I, I decided very early on, I think one of my first episodes I did on my podcast was like suicide and depression awareness of just my own journey with like, yes, I'm like bubbly and friendly, and I am a lot of like, "Mrrr, theater kid," you know? But I was like, "I don't just get the blindness." You don't get a pass. It's not like we have like, "Oh, just the blindness, that's your struggle, and move on." It's like, "I have all this other stuff, and. Yes, and. So the blindness, you know, just dealing with everything else becomes, Oh, okay, well, I, you know, I'm struggling with a mood disorder, like, what? Oh, well, do this thing, do this thing. Oh, you're blind? I don't know what we'll do with you.

Alex Howard
Mhm.

Colleen Connor
You know, or like this technique, do this, color these mandalas. And I'm like, again, like, I, you just feel like I can either have tools that are for blind people. But if like my hands don't work very well, and I have like other things going on, it's then like, Oh, here's these tools for that. Oh, but you're blind? So you're in this like limbo of, yeah, we're all unique. You know, you've met one blind person, you've met one blind person. And it is a spectrum that's just easier to say, I'm blind a lot of the time because how you can, how are you gonna explain all the elements of a low vision, you know, problem to someone who's just the cashier at the grocery store?

Alex Howard
Oh, for sure.

Colleen Connor
I think, I think all of us, we would have a 6-hour series on ridiculous things people have said to us. But, um, it's so weird that the, just, reactions that you get of people who, um, doctors and people I've seen just totally freak out. Just, oh, you're blind? What, what do I do? And I'm like, I'm here for my feet. You're a podiatrist. I don't know, just, well, I— there's x-rays. What do I say to you? You can't look at them. Can you just describe the X-ray?

Alex Howard
The thing that baffles me is like when people don't know what the cane is, when they're like, what's that?

Colleen Connor
Oh, yeah?

Alex Howard
And I'm like, you really, you don't know what this is?

Lee Pugsley
[laughs]

Colleen Connor
The other thing is that I have my seeing eye dog Joplin. She and I, you know, she's always with me and she's so beautiful and like adorable. She's a golden yellow lab cross. And so everybody wants to— I mean, the worst part about having a guide dog is everyone else. It's just people are going to want to pet your dog. They want to constantly— and just the thing of being interrupted while walking, that someone just stops and is like, "Oh, I know I'm not supposed to, but look at this beauty. Hi, sweetie." And I'm like, "You just— what?" Like, how do people just— ugh. Or the cane, they like try and cut in front of you real fast. You know, God forbid you bump into them and they go, "God, watch where you're going." And I'm like, "Yeah, let me work on that." I'll just— It's just the awareness of not only blindness and the experience of blindness as a spectrum, but then audio description is just one of those things, like, within that, that's this invisible service too. You know, when you don't, quote, "look blind." Like, "You guys sound so great on the podcast. You're blind? You speak so well."

Alex Howard
[laughs with recognition]

Colleen Connor
Just stuff that's weird, you know what I mean? Just weird stuff where you're like, why would you say that?

Alex Howard
And if I didn't have my cane, you wouldn't know.

Colleen Connor
Yeah. 

Alex Howard
You know, but I take it everywhere now just for because of those little interactions where it's like, I'm a little awkward in the elevator. I'm a little awkward at the store because I'm blind, not because of some other reason that you're gonna come to the conclusion that if I don't have my cane with me.

Colleen Connor
Yeah, it ends up being a tool, I think, first for navigating, like when you start like doing the, "I'm gonna hit a sign 'cause I didn't know," or like, "I'm not gonna recognize each person that's coming to me," or like curbs or stairs or something. But a lot of times you almost carry the cane as an awareness item, and that's for cars and stuff too, because people just don't... pay attention.

Alex Howard
Yeah. 

Lee Pugsley
Yeah. It's— I always say that the cane is a tool that can be used as an awareness signal, like you said. And it's kind of like, let me help you help me. Meaning I will help you by signaling an awareness of this is who I am. And then maybe you can help me if there's something that I actually need help with, or just, just being aware yourself of the fact that I'm here. And maybe there are certain things that will be helpful on your end that could be accommodating to me, and then we can both help each other. And that's the purpose of the cane, I guess I would say for—

Colleen Connor
Yeah. And it's a good weapon.

Lee Pugsley
Exactly. [laughs]

Alex Howard
If you watch Daredevil, for sure. So then walk us through what is— I mean, I took your class. I know it's–– It's a great class to take, but for people who don't know, what is the class with you like present day? Because I know it's evolved over the years.

Colleen Connor
Yeah, it started as in-person retreats, and our goal was really the same goal that I, that I have, which is networking and being with people with disabilities of any kind as an emphasis, welcoming people from all over the world, from underrepresented communities especially, and not separating people out into different classes. Like, I, I'm very big on, like, I'm gonna have a class of professionals. Some people have done AD before, some people had no clue what this is and their boss sent them here. Like, there's, there's always a variety of people, and you keep the class sizes small. We did that originally because we were cooking and, and providing for them and everything, so we kept the trainings to 8 people because there's a huge lake house that we, you know, would rent, and we had this whole thing, but we actually kept it to 8 people when we went virtual because otherwise you don't have the time to practice and the time to give feedback and like network with each other and get, get to chat and, um, you know, get each other's emails. And Zoom was a platform that just exploded and it was accessible enough, so I realized that sighted people could see each other, and that was, that was something.

But also, I, I started to get more online in general and just grew the blind community that I knew about. And, um, I think online it's again, like, small group. And I, you know, I want to teach all, you know, I want to teach everyone in the world, but I think it's one of those things of trying to work with people financially, you know, when people are like, hey, I really want to do this, and I'm like, let's see if we can make it happen. I don't want finances to be a barrier. I don't want disability to be a barrier. Certainly if you're blind or low vision, we're gonna— let's make it work. So it's one of those things of, I started doing the 8 participants, and then just to cover more human beings, I thought with the people I was hiring to co-teach with me, I was like, okay, let's— maybe we could have observers and people could observe but then still be like in the chat or involved in conversation. 

Alex Howard
I think that's what I did. I was an observer, I think.

Colleen Connor
Yeah, yeah. Um, and it's something where it was like, what's the best way to do this? I, you know, I'm still— I alter it every time. I'm still like, the training is never the same. I'm always updating all of the curriculum and everything and trying to get people to have community with each other. And so the idea is that you have time with us to start with, like, the centering of your humanity and disability awareness and disability justice and safe space. So I try to establish, like, this is a safe space for everybody. When you come here, I want you to not have to think about the crazy world outside, or, you know, hopefully you're not trying to work and do this. Like, I encourage people to just focus on the class when they're in it. And the idea is that I also have significant breaks throughout the day because sitting and learning in any capacity, you know, we all had block scheduling. I used to have classes where 90 minutes or, you know, 2 hours in college, and then you go to another class. Like, it's just–– That's a lot, and I think they're discovering now that, you know, that's not the best way people learn.

And then having a bunch of curriculum— Jan retired in 2021, and that's when I became the owner of the company, and I started hiring graduates and, and professionals that I, that I was interacting with to teach classes with me and develop different things and ideas. And so, it's evolved over time. Like, Liz was one of the first people who taught with me, Liz Gutman.

Alex Howard
She's been on our podcast a few times. We love her. Yeah. 

Colleen Connor
Yeah. She's so— She's such a beautiful person. And I just remember her take to AD was crazy. It was like somebody who'd never heard of it, and then we were having them live describe a movie while watching it. They were just saying what they see. And I was like, oh, she's good. I was like, she's— Liz, like, had this— I get it, you know? She was like, got the bug, you know? It was really cool. And we've been able to remain friends and everything, but she was one of the first people I chose to teach with. And it was just developing, okay, here's all these handouts I have. And like, we update, and I've just been giving people more and more material as time has gone on and I'm like, okay, I have a lot of pages at this point. Like, there's a lot of handouts, so I gotta figure something out. But I have a graduate library and I have all these handouts. And then mainly the class is about— on the class days, you're coming to interact, to engage, to practice, to discuss things. You know, we don't want you just— it's not just to come and like read handouts to you.

The goal is that class time is for engaging with each other and figuring out roles and workflow of people in the industry and sort of giving a dusting of like live theater and film and television. And then kind of at the end of the fundamentals is like a— you've had kind of a taste or like a kind of a lens into everything and as to why this would be important and like who to center, like disability-centered, human-centered audio description. And then, you know, people will go on to be like, "Oh, I'm interested in film," or people realize they have another interest. "Oh, I didn't think I'd want to write, and now I do." But yeah, the emphasis is on networking and kind of a comprehensive knowledge. I think that the more you know about audio description, the better you are at your job in it. So that's just kind of the philosophy that I've gone with. And I've been able to train people and get some support to train, um, people, and I haven't really had to insanely market, so it's good word of mouth. I'm okay so far. [laughs]

Alex Howard
So if I remember right, the first 2 or 3 days is like learning about AD and all the fundamentals and stuff, and then the last half of the class is actually going through and describing. Then you kind of give us notes on how we did with the description and all of that. Is that right?

Colleen Connor
Yeah, I tend to— if blind or low vision folks are interested in writing, I will try to— I'll say, do you want to co-write with somebody? Or I will say, we are the— we'll give them feedback because it, you know, that's always valuable, especially if there's more than one blind person there. I'm like, this is really valuable for you. Um.

Alex Howard
I think, yeah, that's what I did as an observer. Yeah.

Colleen Connor
Yeah, yeah. I just had you on mute. I was like, Alex, come here, you got this. Uh, yeah, I, I assign— we would assign people scenes and basically say, write the audio description for this, take some time, and then, you know, in a couple days, you know, you're going to be going through the film. And basically, it's kind of a combination. Some people did write their script out, some people wanted to write it and record it, like they were just more audio savvy. But most people, it was like, we want you to look at the screen, be watching the film, and just try to describe. So it was like a prepared live theater-screen combination thing. But yeah, it was to really get a basis in writing. And then each person, we would stop the scene and give feedback to that person, and then everyone would have a chance to, to redo their scene if they wanted to. But yeah, it was a— it's a collaborative, like, learning how to give and receive feedback and learning what you might be naturally good at and if there's something that you're like, oh, that's a habit, it's going to be really hard for me to break, or oh, I don't like this, or, you know, oh, I like this, but I don't like movies or whatever, you know.

And I try to keep it as like a family, you know, graduates give like emails to people and I try to get like networking things going. It's challenging to stay on top of, you know, you can't be everywhere at once. So it's like I can't stay on top of these things. But you should all talk to each other. Bye!

Alex Howard
No, but it's great because, yeah, I still get emails from you guys about like job opportunities and other things like that. So being an alumni is definitely worth it.

Lee Pugsley
I love your heart behind your philosophy, the desire to not only educate and equip the people that you're teaching, but also to really create that community and that family network. I think that's so important. And reflecting upon the work that you do with the Audio Description Training Retreats, I can only imagine that you're having such a huge impact on so many people and helping them unlock their own passions. So on that note, I'd be curious to know what's the most rewarding part of the job that you do with these retreats, and also what's the most challenging part?

Colleen Connor
I will say the most challenging first, because yuck. Um, the most challenging for me personally is the business-owning part of it. I still receive Social Security Disability and for health insurance in America, um, and the, the balance between I can't make too much money but my business is separate from my personal, and then how do I finagle this, blah blah blah. And then just the small business startup things are for sighted people. I mean, any of the tutorials, any of the software, like, yeah, good, QuickBooks is really intuitive and stuff, and it's, maybe, accessible? But again, people aren't expecting blind people to be able to do stuff. I still sometimes will be like, "Oh, you have your own money, honey?" And I'm like, "What?" Just things that people, I think, don't take you seriously, at least with me. Sometimes I'm the pronoun latte that nobody wants to hear from. So I think people not taking me seriously and just my own limitations that are starting to really get in my way of what I want to do with ADTR. So the brain fog and the fatigue and the trying to figure out medically what's going on besides the blindness, there's just a sense of like you have so many things you want to do and you want to be organized and you want to, but life just kind of happens and trying to figure that out.

The most rewarding thing is all of my students. I still call everyone "my ducks." I'm like, "My duckies," but I more recently have started to hear so many names of people that are achieving things and doing their own things. And I'm so proud of each person. I'm so happy that they've been able to take their own, you know, situation and run with it. I learned so much in every training from people who come. I always, you know, it's all about discussion and stuff. And so if someone's been doing art description, but that, you know, we always learn a ton of things. And it helps me stay aware of what the industry is currently as well. So it's rewarding to be able to prepare people as much as possible for the industry that is here. It's challenging. There's like— I've reached a point now where it's— this really is a degree. Like, you know, you need classes and like certifications. There's a lot of— a lot of my students are leaders in different companies and places. And I've been able to meet people all over the world and change, you know, bring audio description to certain places that didn't have it and talk to so many people.

And that's my favorite part, is getting to meet people and–– in a room, even if it's a virtual room. And for us, you know, it's a glorified phone call. I can't see anybody on there. So figuring out on there how to read a room and still, get a group of people to understand what a safe space is. And that, practice and feedback, and sort of demystify a lot of disabilities if I have someone there to represent something or just myself trying to give experience that I can and having people understand the "You've met one blind person." So that's what I love, is hearing all of the successes of people and names and credits and stuff where I'm like, mm, yes.

Alex Howard
So as an audio description teacher, I know you don't want to give away your whole class because, you know, you want people to take the class. But what would you say is the single most important thing to remember when writing about audio description in general? What's the thing that you want to really hammer into people?

Colleen Connor
Um, there are so many.

Alex Howard
I know it's a hard question.

Colleen Connor
Yeah. No, it's one of those things where I–– I like to be as transparent as possible, and I— although sometimes financially it hurts a little bit, or like you get a little scared of like, uh, I don't want people stealing my stuff— it's— I also don't want to gatekeep anything. And if somebody wants handouts in another format, or I— yeah, you can have them. So I know that people— I don't know if people have used my material to train others, but I'm like, well, at least there's decent material out there. So yes, I kind of want to— I'm like, I have to have a little bit, guys, of like something. But as far as audio description, I would say the first thing to understand is how broad of an impact it can have. Audio description, if you think about it, you can audio describe anything because it's vision. And so education programs, especially for children, and college classes and all of this stuff, can be audio described. And whether someone's like itinerant with someone else, DeafBlind individuals and Protactile, you know, working with people who do haptics or Protactile on what's a combination of audio description and captioning, you know, what's ASL, what's the combination there to get information to people and just how to make people aware of audio description and not in this way of like, oh, whoa, someone's describing. Why is this lady talking about all the visuals in this is so weird. Ahahaha, funny. Or like, a thing that raised a lot of awareness was, um, you know, when Pornhub announced that they were gonna describe more pornographic films. And it, it was like 2016, it was like, 'Oh my gosh, hahaha.' And all the late night shows did like a bit about it. And it was like, 'Well, at least it's, it's publicity.' Daredevil was similar, and having relationships with, like, other companies and just getting to know people. Netflix is very responsive as a company, so it's great to work with. But having people understand sort of what it can change your life as a person who's blind or low vision. Part of it is not just explaining what, what are you seeing visually. It's, it's difficult. It's a craft. It's, it's a tradecraft, really. It's an art and a science, and you want to serve the material and serve your audience. So that comes with describing what you see, and that means no censorship. That means represent people so that they can see themselves in art, because we all deserve to see ourselves in entertainment and the stage and everything.

And so not just understanding like, oh cool, I get to voiceover and I'm helping blind people as a service. I'm so— this makes me feel so great. But really trying to understand, wow, look, there's a way I can continue to learn, like continuing education, meet people in the community. If you're writing AD and you're not talking to blind people, like, again, there's the internet, like, figure it out. Understanding that blind people, at least in North America, you know, it may have started in the '80s where this was created by blind people. And their friends or colleagues for blind people. And somehow we got pushed out of it to a point where, oh well, they can't do it, they can't see. So, much like other accessibility services, it became like, I'm gonna tell you what you need. And so this sort of switch in the industry of us starting to be able to, with the internet and more education, being able to speak out and to say, what is this? Why, what–– Where do you get training? What is this? Why can't I take that? Why can't I do it? You know, you can't tell me what I can and can't do.

Blindness is a spectrum. So I think for me, it's the overarching, like, learning about audio description, but having people understand that this allows somebody to have a social life, to have a community, to have a— you know, somewhere to go

Alex Howard
To be included. Yeah.

Colleen Connor
That we can all be. Yeah, yeah, it's to be included in something. And also, like, dignity is so huge with blindness in particular. We can't see each other, so we can't like, "Caw caw, caw caw," recognize each other that we're there in a room. Or like, anything people can do to learn about etiquette with disabilities is, you know, maybe 5 more people understanding, "Oh, if someone's in a wheelchair, I don't have to flip out," or like, "Oh, I can talk to blind people and see if they need help." Like, just understanding that describing the world brings people who are intelligent and have things to offer and have been left out for a long time, you know, who are even auditory. Like, I have trouble learning auditory, so I feel stupid a lot of the time now because I'm such a visual learner. And so just understanding, like, what you can do as an ally and what audio description can do to open up film and television and, like, all the details of something and jobs and knowledge.

Knowledge is power, especially now. And technology, accessibility is kind of difficult and still, like, an everyday challenge. But audio description being part of alt text, being able to navigate the internet and having tools where, yeah, we're— we're good. We can do every website that anyone else can do. And like, blind people do things all the time that other people can do. And in classes, a lot of times, besides just like, you know, audio description rooted in humanity and disability justice and like what you can do to change the world, really, but the understanding that blind people, like, we have, we have value, and that no one works in a vacuum. A lot of people have this idea that, oh, uh, if you're writing with a co-person, like, or like, oh, NDAs, like, non-disclosure, all these rules about different entertainment and stuff, and I don't think all of it is quite there yet, but the conversations, um, that people can have and the fact that we, you know, you guys in the podcast, like, you know, we can meet other people and talk to other people and understand what's going on in the industry. And then like the news, you know what I mean?

Like there's things that award shows and like just life starting to be described, where there's things we just didn't know. And you don't know what you don't know. And so it's— I, I remember from being a blind person in the, you know, 2000s, just the amount of knowledge that, that I have gained since then from being able to understand more of culture and community. And yeah, it's just that life is hard and it's too short to be screwing around with trying to figure everything out on your own. So I think for me it's the overarching, like, really anything can be described, and that blind people and people with any kind of difference deserve to be in every space that there is. We're all humans. Um, well, we can pretend we are all humans. And understanding that, that again, I just like to bring meaning and understanding of the broader effect that audio description can have on English as a Second Language and children and, you know, people with autism and ADHD. And like, just this isn't just for disability. Like, this isn't just for blind people. Like, it can do so much. And it has opened up a lot of, a lot of life to a lot of people.

There's young people who have taken my class where they didn't know a time without AD, and I'm like, oh, that's awesome. And then I'm like, I'm old.

Alex Howard
Yeah, no, for sure.

Lee Pugsley
This is such a beautiful summation of everything in there. You have so many wonderful things to say, Colleen, about life, about audio description, about the blind and disabled experience. And I really appreciate your philosophy once again and your heart for the communities that you're a part of. And be encouraged that you are making such a huge difference. So thank you so much for all the work that you're doing. And as we bring this episode to a close, even though we could talk to you for hours: Where can people find you if they want to connect with you, if they're interested in taking your classes? And if there's anything you'd like to plug for yourself, feel free to share with us.

Colleen Connor
Yeah, so I am trying to figure out like health stuff and also, like, systems to put in place of like, how do I make this an online class? And like, how do I...? So I don't have any specific dates for next classes. We just finished another fundamentals class with another great group. I've taught people in all continents except Antarctica. So if anybody knows scientists, get at me. We need to do the globe. I'm just saying. Yeah, just knowing that I try to do mentorship opportunities. I'm trying to get in some of the film festivals I've been involved with, and I would love to restart my YouTube series and my podcast. They are up there. Seeing Eye Dog Vlog, Blind Inspiration Cast. If anyone's looking at getting a guide dog, I help people a lot with the whole journey.

Alex Howard
I'm on the waitlist to get one.

Colleen Connor
I know Alex— I was going to say, I think you are on the waitlist, which is exciting. Yeah. And so I'm in a lot of like weird transitions right now, but I am always trying to raise awareness on podcasts and things like this, writing some articles and stuff like that. The next thing we're going to be doing is we did get accepted to do a workshop at LEAD, the Leadership Exchange in Arts and Disability, um, through the Kennedy Center. That conference is in August and it's in Philadelphia this year, and I'm in Pennsylvania, and I was like, well, I can't not do it now. So we had a great time in Seattle in 2024, and so I'm bringing my team together to to do classes and a couple of talks at LEAD this year. And then, um, we might be doing Languages in the Media in November, which is in London. Depends on if the proposal is accepted, but most likely other trainings are coming up in the fall. And if you're— I mean, any social media is @adtr.colleen, @ADRetreats, some form of AD training retreat. Um, the website in general is ADTrainingRetreats.com. The main email we have is info, info@ADTrainingRetreats.com. It's all one word, AD for audio description, and then Training Retreats, and it is plural, so it's TS.com.

And then just, I don't know, if you see Joplin or me and my, my life, you can say hi. But yeah, that's kind of where I am in focusing on education and talking to people and where can we move forward with what's best for audio description and the peoples.

Alex Howard
Well, awesome. Thank you so much for joining us, Colleen. This was really fun. 

Colleen Connor
Yes! I'm sorry. I know I'm chatty. I could talk about this stuff all day. So I want to thank you guys for what you're doing. And I'm impressed with your podcast. It's so great to hear the roundtables and the awareness that the award shows bring to things. And just kind of the sense of there could be a fandom around AD writers and just people getting recognition is great. You guys are doing a great thing and a great job, and thanks for doing it.

Alex Howard
Oh, thank you. We appreciate it.

Lee Pugsley
I guess it just means that we'll have to have you back sometime because, like I said earlier, we could talk to you for hours as well.

Colleen Connor
[laughs]

Lee Pugsley
We'll put that in the books for a future date. Stay tuned.

Colleen Connor
Yes, yes.

Alex Howard
Definitely.

Lee Pugsley
And thank you to all the listeners out there for tuning in today for this episode. If you have any questions for us or anything we talked about today, feel free to email us at DarkRoomFilmCast@gmail.com. Once again, that's DarkRoomFilmCast@gmail.com. And you can also follow us on Instagram at DarkRoomFilmCast and subscribe to our YouTube channel at DarkRoomFilmCast.

Alex Howard
Again, we'd like to thank Matt Lauterbach and All Senses Go for helping out with captions on all of our episodes, and BlindCAN for helping out with editing.

Lee Pugsley
And thank you all once again. Have a wonderful day, and we'll see you here next time on The Dark Room.

Alex Howard
Take care, guys.