Ep. 63: Star Wars Films Ranked

In honor of the recent theatrical release of "Star Wars: The Mandalorian and Grogu", Alex and Lee rank all live-action Star Wars films, which makes for some fun discussion.

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Transcript

Lee Pugsley
What's up everyone and welcome back to another episode of The Dark Room where two blind cinephiles illuminate the sighted. I'm Lee Pugsley.

Alex Howard
I'm Alex Howard.

Lee Pugsley
And this is a podcast hosted by two legally blind guys for film lovers of all abilities. And today we're going to have a lot of fun with this episode. This is one of them that's a long time coming and Alex, I know that you've been waiting forever to do this. So why don't you explain to our listeners what's going on today?

Alex Howard
So today we're going to be ranking all 12 live-action Star Wars movies, in our opinion, from worst to best. And what's going to be fun about this is I know that Lee and I have drastically different opinions, and I don't think you and I have ever really like dove into details and talked about it. Um, I feel like we've kind of been like, let's save it for the podcast. Like, I generally have an idea, but I don't know the reasons why. And so I feel like this will be really fun to have this conversation for the first time.

Lee Pugsley
I totally agree. And I'm so curious to know where our rankings are going to line up. Also, for those listeners out there, please keep in mind that this is our personal rankings, and we'll explain the reasons why we rank them the way we do. You may have other rankings that are different, and that's totally awesome. For anyone who loves Star Wars, we all know that you have your favorite movies and we have ours, and you should own it and be proud of the rankings that you have.

Alex Howard
Yeah, definitely. And we would love for you to share your rankings with us as well, and we can compare notes. And I have mine on Letterboxd as well.

Lee Pugsley
So Alex, I know that we always do this when we're doing these ranking lists, but how many do you think we'll have in common in terms of where our spots line up with each other?

Alex Howard
Um, I think we're only gonna have 2. What about you?

Lee Pugsley
That's my prediction as well. So...

Alex Howard
That's one thing we agree on.

Lee Pugsley
That's true. Maybe it'll be the only thing we'll agree on. [laughs]

Alex Howard
Yeah, for sure. So Lee, why don't you start us off with your number 12?

Lee Pugsley
Yeah, I'm happy to do that. First of all, why don't you take a guess and then we'll go from there as to what my number 12 is?

Alex Howard
Well, I have a feeling it's The Last Jedi because you've been doing a lot of trash talking for as long as I've known you.

Lee Pugsley
You are 100% correct. The Last Jedi is number 12 on my list of Star Wars live-action movies. And this is for many reasons. First of all, I feel like the tone of Star Wars was completely thrown away, in my opinion, in this movie. Even the way that it first starts out, the humor of it feels more like a Marvel movie. I feel like as much as I love Rian Johnson, who redeemed himself with Knives Out, he took everything that was set up in The Force Awakens with the characters of Finn, Rey, and Poe and totally threw it away. In addition to that, I also didn't love what he did with Luke's character. Luke just felt so emo, and I feel like the character of Luke is very much a character who isn't going to give up on people, and he's not going to let people go to the dark side as much as he has control over. He's going to continue trying. And so to kind of just see him defeated and emo is what I would call it, just was not the way that I envisioned Star Wars. So I felt like–– Yeah, everything that was set up in Episode 7 was completely thrown away in Episode 8, and tonally it just felt all over the place. I do think there are some good visuals, and I will give it credit for that, but beyond that, I was so disappointed with virtually every direction they took the characters in. I'm curious to hear your thoughts because I may have more commentary after that.

Alex Howard
Okay, so The Last Jedi is my number 5. I am a Last Jedi defender. I love that we're getting into this right off the bat, just like with the first one. I have like tiers in my Star Wars ranking. I'd say like I absolutely love the, like, my first 5. This is my number 5. I feel like Last Jedi really did what I was hoping they would do after The Force Awakens, which is like steer away from the trilogy. So like I wanted something completely different, something we've never seen before in Star Wars. And they totally did that with The Last Jedi. With— it was so unexpected with— I'm sorry, we're gonna get into spoilers because I think this movie is 10 years old now. It's actually 9 years old now. But anyway, so when Kylo Ren kills Snoke, that was so unexpected. And so, like, this, we've never seen something like that with Star Wars because, you know, the Star Wars formula is like, you know, Darth Vader, and then he has a master, Palpatine, and then at the end Darth Vader turns against his master and turns good and blah blah blah. But, like, Kylo Ren kills him but doesn't turn good, so he's gonna be— it's setting up for him to be the big bad of the next one, and we've never seen that before.

And then just beyond that, I love the idea that Rian Johnson really went for it in the way— saying that anyone can be a Jedi, because before that it was very much implied that like it's a genetic thing, like, you know, Skywalkers, and they're like families of Jedis and stuff. So like, you have to be chosen, you have to get lucky genetically. And this was more like, you know, you just have to get lucky, but like, literally it can happen to anyone. Because I mean, yes, The Force Awakens set up like, oh, who is Rey? But then Rian Johnson came back and was like, actually, she's no one. Like, her parents weren't anyone iconic, which at first was a little jarring because we were trying to predict who she was from Force Awakens. But the more you thought about it, the more it's like, this is being very inclusive in the idea of like the Star Wars world. Like, anyone can have this power, and it's so refreshing. And so while there are things that I don't like, like the Leia using the Force to float her way back to the spaceship, and the casino thing I don't really like that much, but for the most part like the themes in Last Jedi, I love so much.

Even like the visuals with in the throne room, the red fight with Ren and Rey and Snoke was really cool visually. But then also like the lakebed with the red salt coming up was so cool. And I just feel like this movie gets a lot of undeserved hate, even with what's her name, Rose, the character Rose. Like...

Lee Pugsley
Throwaway character for sure.

Alex Howard
Yeah, but like she could have been more. Like, I feel like they threw away in Rise of Skywalker, but we'll get to that later. But like, a lot of the people who hate the idea of white character becoming a Black character, or, you know, they don't–– hate women superheroes— like, they hated Rose, that group, a lot. And so I don't know, I feel like a lot of people hate it because it's different, but that's why I like it. Because I was like, I don't want this— like, we've seen the original trilogy. I wanted something different, and that's what this gave me. And it was really setting all of this stuff up.

Lee Pugsley
I respect where you're coming from. I'm going to have to disagree with that, but I respect where you're coming from. I understand why someone could like this movie because they wanted something fresh and different. And to his credit, even though I don't want to give it much credit, it was different. And so for someone looking for something different, I could see why it would be satisfying. To comment on a few other things you said though, I feel like the whole idea of Rey's parents being no one and they are like, "You're no one." I kind of felt like that was a little lazy and a little bit of a throwaway sort of thing. And then when Rey is training with Luke, I was thinking, what is she learning? Because she already knows how to do everything naturally. So those are other small qualms that I had with it too.

Alex Howard
Mm-hmm. No, I definitely, I definitely respect that. I also have a— I went to a screening at LACMA for— I don't even remember what movie it was. Oh, I think it was American Graffiti, and Rian Johnson did Q&A after. So I brought a poster of Last Jedi, which has the coolest— it's like so simplistic with the red. I love the colors for Last Jedi. But, um, anyway, so I brought the poster with me, and he was signing stuff after, and I'm tall, so I reached over everyone and like gave my poster. So I have a signed Rian Johnson Last Jedi poster, framed, which I know a lot of people would be like, why do you have that? But like, I don't know, I love it.

Lee Pugsley
That is really cool. And I do like Rian Johnson as a director. I think he seems like a cool person as well. So once again, like, I don't want to hate on him, and he did redeem himself with movies past The Last Jedi, but oh man, what a disappointment that movie was for me.

Alex Howard
Oh yeah, and I'm sure my number 12, I will feel the same way you did about this one.

Lee Pugsley
Okay, well, let's hear your number 12 then.

Alex Howard
Okay, so my number 12 is Rise of Skywalker, um, Episode 9, um, because they really— they undid everything that I liked in The Last Jedi. I was so excited for this movie, like, this was my most anticipated of the year for 2019, and, um, I was like— I didn't read any reviews before going in. Which I probably should have because it would have tempered my expectations. But I was so excited and I feel like I'm not a big person to nitpick, but it was so bad that I started nitpicking like halfway through the movie and like by the end. In my old phone, I had like a list of 10 or 12 things that I absolutely hated about Rise of Skywalker. And unfortunately I lost my phone, so I don't have that list anymore and I refuse to rewatch it. I haven't watched it since the theater. But I do remember a few things, one of them being like the fake killing Chewbacca for like 2 minutes. I was like, "Why are we doing this?" Like, it was so— like, you were emotional for 2 seconds and then they were like, "Just kidding." And I was like, "Well, that was not effective at all." Literally, they undid everything and it was because Lucasfilm saw the reaction to The Last Jedi, which I liked. And I know a lot of critics like Last Jedi, but a lot of fans don't. There's like a lot of divide for that movie. Um, it's really 50/50. I mean, it might honestly be more people hate Last Jedi than don't.

But since I loved it, they undid everything. They made Rey like the— what was it— the daughter of Palpatine. And then it was like somehow Palpatine has returned. So like they were setting up Kylo Ren to be like the villain. And then they did the same thing they did in the original trilogy, it was like, okay, it's actually Palpatine, and then we're gonna do the same thing where we have Kylo Ren turn good right at the end and then kill Palpatine. It's like the same story we've already seen in the original. And I was like, you might— it's— you might as well just call it a remake of the trilogy at this point. Like, I wanted something different. I wanted them to stick to their guns and follow through And then also, after the fact, we found out Colin Trevorrow had written a script called Duel of the Fates, and it leaked online. And I read it, and it's so good.

Like, it was supposed to be called Episode 9: Duel of the Fates. And it literally starts with them hijacking a Star Destroyer. And it's all of them working together— Poe, Finn, Rey, and Rose— which we never got on screen, all 4 of them. It was so good and like so much badass and just, uh, it was awesome. And then there were so many things he like followed through with, a lot of the themes from Last Jedi in that one. Um, there was no Palpatine. Kylo was gonna— Kylo was gonna go full bad in that. It would have been such a better movie if they had stuck with that script. And I also felt like it was painfully obvious that they hired JJ to do 1, Rian Johnson to do 2, and then theoretically Colin to do 3. But even when they had that, it's not like these guys were talking to one another. It just felt like they were like, you write your movie, you write your movie, and don't talk to the other person. It was just such like, they don't have a plan. They were just like, let's make Star Wars movies. And there was no plan for the trilogy with a through storyline. They were just kind of doing things in the moment.

And it's like, how do you start a trilogy like that? Like, you, you should have a plan from the beginning, like have the big points you want to hit in your trilogy and go from there. But they were clearly just like kind of going with the flow and doing, doing whatever they wanted. It was so obvious. So yes, if you can't tell, I hate Rise of Skywalker. [laughs]

Lee Pugsley
That's totally fair. And I think to speak to the bigger issue with episodes 7 through 9, there was no through line from the beginning. I mean, episodes 1 through 3 have their issues in terms of scripts and dialog for sure, and there's definitely some cringy moments, but at least you can tell that there was a beginning, middle, and end to where they wanted that trilogy to go with George Lucas helming it. And you can definitely see the difference in 7, 8, and 9 and how convoluted and disjointed each of those movies feel. So I think that was a very big misstep from Disney Lucasfilms, and I wish there was a way they could have remedied that, but too little too late. That being said though, Rise of Skywalker is number 9 for me, and some of the reasons that it does take that spot is because I actually was happy that they were trying to undo all the damage that was done during The Last Jedi. Now, what suffered from that was the first half of the movie was damage control from The Last Jedi and trying to undo everything that was done in Episode 8.

But the problem is the second half of the movie felt rushed, the payoffs didn't feel earned, and it felt exactly like Episode 6, the end of Episode 6. It kind of repeated itself like you were saying. It's just mirroring the original trilogy, but in a way that's less engaging and less exciting. I do also think that while I appreciated some of the fan service in it, it was so forced and so contrived and once again not earned. Like, I think if you're gonna do fan service, Spider-Man: No Way Home is the real way to do fan service well. But in Rise of Skywalker, it was more so we have to get all of the characters in here and have voiceovers or appearances or whatever just to make the fans happy. And I think they tried way too hard to make the fans happy. I would have been happier with the Colin Trevorrow script. I think that sounds more interesting. That being said, when I first saw Rise of Skywalker, I walked away thinking, that was good, that was satisfying. And I think that was just because it wasn't The Last Jedi. But when I rewatched it, I definitely noticed its flaws, but it still was more interesting to me than some of the other movies that are lower down on my list.

Alex Howard
Since you hate Last Jedi, would you have rather them stuck with that storyline and just kept going, or what, are you glad that they pivoted so hard?

Lee Pugsley
That's such a tough question. I will say, because my disdain for Last Jedi is so strong, I am glad they pivoted, but I don't think it's a perfect film by any means. It's definitely flawed, so I wouldn't say that I'm like hugely favorable of it, but I would say that I probably get more entertainment value out of it than you.

Alex Howard
I mean, I— because I bought the SteelBooks for Force Awakens, I bought it for The Last Jedi, and I was like, I refuse to buy Rise of Skywalker. Like, I've been meaning to revisit it to see if like now me knowing it's bad like maybe helps my enjoyment of it a little bit. But I don't think I've ever been as disappointed in a movie. I was just like watching it in disbelief. I was like, I cannot believe that this is the finished product. Yeah. So that, that is my number 12 for sure.

Lee Pugsley
That's totally fair.

Alex Howard
So what is your number 11, Lee?

Lee Pugsley
My number 11, which may or may not be shocking to you, is actually Mandalorian and Grogu, which I saw last night. And here's what I thought about it, just to kind of give a mini review. I'll kind of go with light spoilers because I know it's new and some people may not have seen it yet. I felt like it was fine. It was a little bland to me. The first hour was definitely more interesting than the second hour, but after the first hour it just kept going and it felt like 2 or 3 distinct TV episodes. And you could tell if this was a TV series where the breaks were going to be. I felt like the characters didn't really have any arcs. They were pretty static, and it was once again a fine adventure film. You know, some good action sequences, really amazing audio description track, best audio description track of the year, which I know you'll comment on more. Grogu was cute, but it just didn't do much for me, honestly. I wanted more from it. I do think the best thing about the movie is the score. As far as anything else goes, I could take it or leave it after this. It's not a movie that I see myself watching again anytime soon, if at all. So yeah, that's kind of what I thought of it, but I'm curious to hear more of your thoughts about it and we can dialog more about that too.

Alex Howard
Wow. Yeah. So this is literally our first time talking about this movie with each other because we hadn't talked since you saw it. I have Mandalorian at number 8 for me. It's like a— it's in my mid-tier. Like, I didn't hate it. Like you said, the audio description is out of this world great. I love that they brought back Nicole and Justin for the movie. We've had them on our podcast before to talk about Mandalorian and their great work that they do. And I thought it was so smart of them to bring both of them back for the movie because I know sometimes when they do another season of something or they, you know, transition to a bigger scope, they do a different audio description team. So it's great that they stuck with that. I also love the opening sequence, like the first 15-20 minutes of the movie I thought was so good. Like when he's taking the AT-ATs, and I'm, I'm going into detail because this is like literally the beginning of the movie, I don't feel like there are major spoilers, but there's a shot in it specifically when like they're like in the AT-AT and they're showing the crew and they're like, it's basically like a dolly down the center of the AT-AT towards the back.

So it's like dollying down there and you can tell Mando's trying to break in and then he breaks in and then it dollies back. And it's just him like wrecking guys going back the other way, and it's all one take. And I love that shot so much. I was like, this is so cool. But yeah, and I mean, obviously Grogu's cute. I'm a big sucker for Grogu, so I feel like that's also why it's number 8. It was really close between this and Solo for me, and I put Mandalorian just ahead of it purely because, I mean, Grogu, you can–– [laughs] He is so funny and so cute. So yeah, I mean, I didn't love this movie. Like, I think the second half is weaker. I think the climax is not as climactic and exciting as they want. Um, it was said though, I don't know how true this is, but Dave Filoni and Jon Favreau did say when this got greenlit as a feature, they scrapped the season and then they wrote a new script for the feature. So this wasn't something where they were like, oh, let's just take the episodes we have and make it into a feature. They actually wrote this knowing it was going to be a feature, which is what they said. I don't know. But I can totally see what you're saying about, yeah, there are, I guess, acts, you could almost say.

I also didn't really like the Hutt character. It was kind of like— it was weird to see a Hutt that's good, because usually the Hutts in Star Wars are bad. My other thing was, oh my God, Sigourney Weaver, I've never seen her this bad before. She really phoned it in. I felt like there was no emotion behind any of her lines. It was just like telling Mando where to go and what to do, and there was no real acting there at all.

Lee Pugsley
I definitely agree with Sigourney Weaver. She was phoning it in for sure, and it wasn't good. I also agree with you though that the first 15 to 20 minutes of the movie was very engaging. It did grab me pretty quickly. It just didn't keep me very long was the big issue.

Alex Howard
Yeah, I mean, the other— the only other thing, I mean, besides the amazing audio description that I liked about the movie was I like that they kind of gave Grogu some independence. They gave him like a couple times where it was like he is helping, or, you know, Mandalorian can't do this without him. So I, I like that they gave Grogu his time in the spotlight. But did you notice Mandalorian kept being like, "Heel" to Grogu? I was like, why are you treating him like a dog? Like, he is a person and you will treat him as such, you know? Like, I don't know why he kept saying "heel." It was really weird. But the score was also like, like you said, the score was amazing. I love the— like, there were parts where it almost went techno, you know what I mean? It was almost like electronic Star Wars, and it was such a great, like, mood to be in. I loved it so much.

Lee Pugsley
Same here, and I hope that it gets an Oscar nomination as it rightfully deserves.

Alex Howard
Oh yeah.

Lee Pugsley
Now, one other question about the Mandalorian movie. How did you feel about him taking off his helmet, which I believe they showed in the previews as well, correct?

Alex Howard
Um, I didn't know he was gonna do that, but I mean, I was really happy they did it. I think it was also like— I don't know if it was in Pedro Pascal's contract. This is not— I'm just guessing. You know, it's a big movie and he's the star and, you know, you want to show his face. So him taking off his helmet was kind of— when it happened, I was like, okay, that, that makes sense because, you know, Pedro Pascal is huge right now. The other thing I do want to point out though about the AD, I don't know if you remember when we were talking before you saw it and I said there's something in the AD that not many people catch on to. That they mention in the AD, but sighted audiences— I haven't heard anyone talk about it. Did you notice what I was talking about?

Lee Pugsley
I didn't. I was really curious about what you were talking about, and I was mindful of it the whole time. Is it something that you can talk about here, or is it too big of a spoiler to talk about?

Alex Howard
Oh no, yeah, I think, I think I can talk about it, because so basically there's a scene in the middle of the movie where he's fighting a bunch of creatures, and in the AD they say those are the creatures from the chess set from the original Star Wars when Chewie and C-3PO are playing chess and there's like the creatures on the, on the board. Those are the real life-size creatures from that chess set. And when she said, oh, "the chess set creatures" in the AD, I was like, "What?! Like, that's so cool. I didn't even realize that was them." And I've heard no one say anything about like that Easter egg. So I'm like, is this a thing that like, you don't know unless you listen to the AD?

Lee Pugsley
That's so fascinating because I remember her mentioning that, but for whatever reason it just kind of went over my head and I wasn't thinking about the original chess set characters. So that's really cool.

Alex Howard
Yeah, so I, I love that Easter egg. I feel like people would like the movie more if they knew that Easter egg was there, but like I said, I've heard no one talk about it. So yeah, it's a little thing for blind people, I guess.

Lee Pugsley
Totally, totally. And this is why we love Justin and Nicole and why AD can really enhance a viewing experience as well.

Alex Howard
We're— I know we're taking a long time, guys. We're going to go a little faster through these because we've had our debates already, our big debates already. So don't worry, this won't be a 90-minute episode or anything.

Lee Pugsley
Now, what's your number 11?

Alex Howard
So my number 11 is, um, Episode 2: Attack of the Clones. For me, Phantom Menace used to be below Attack of the Clones, but I just feel like Attack of the Clones, the dialog is so cringy. It's just the whole thing with Anakin and Padmé, it's just so awful. And like, the action's cool at the end, but man, just the sand is rough and he hates it, and it's just like, oh my God, the dialog is so bad. So that's the main reason why Attack of the Clones is down there at number 11 for me.

Lee Pugsley
So once again, very big difference. Uh, Attack of the Clones Episode 2 is number 6 on my list.

Alex Howard
Wow, okay.

Lee Pugsley
I do— I completely agree with you that the dialog is terrible, and the scenes between Hayden Christensen and Natalie Portman super cringy. The dialogue's so bad. Their acting is terrible in this movie. But beyond that, I don't know, I just find the action sequences really fun. And objectively speaking, I understand that it's not the best Star Wars movie out of the Episode I through III trilogy, but for whatever reason, I always have so much fun watching it in the midst of its cringiness and its flaws. I think that there's just a lot of fun world building that George Lucas did in that movie. The Yoda fight at the end is really fun. And I don't know, just wins me over for no good reason other than I just like it and think it's fun. And it's one of the Star Wars movies that I do remember watching in theaters before I was really pulled into the Star Wars universe and had watched all of them. And I remember really liking it walking out. So it might just be a feeling of nostalgia as well.

Alex Howard
That's very true that that's the first time I guess we've seen Yoda fight in a Star Wars movie. So that is very true about that. I never saw a Star Wars movie in theaters until The Force Awakens. So I mean, I do have nostalgia because I did watch this movie growing up, but not like you did probably because you got to see it in theater. So that's understandable.

Lee Pugsley
Now I will say, as we go through our list as well, I'm sure that a lot of reasons that we have for our movie rankings have to do with nostalgia or remembering, what was the reaction after we saw the movie the first time, or growing up with it, or so many different attachments that can make a difference on our list, even if from an objective point of view our ranking may not be the highest quality movie out of all of them.

Alex Howard
As a kid, I used to love Attack of the Clones, for sure. So, yeah.

Lee Pugsley
All right, well, I guess we're back to me and my number 10, which is Rogue One. Now, here's what I'll say about Rogue One. I think the ending is awesome. I think that's such a good ending, possibly one of the best endings for any Star Wars movie, including Episodes 1 through 9 and any spin-off. Such a great ending. My biggest issue with it is Act 1 and Act 2 feel very clunky. There's a lot of characters in the movie, and I feel like there were so many characters that I didn't really feel attached to any of them. So when the end happens and everyone starts dying, I just didn't care because I wasn't emotionally engaged or attached to any one person's journey. I have heard that the show Andor is really good. I have not watched it yet, so maybe if I watched Andor season 1 and 2 and then watched Rogue One again, I might have a different opinion about it. And I also do think that it is shot very well. I think that there's a lot of good visual imagery and world building within the design of Rogue One. It just didn't really do much for me beyond that.

Alex Howard
Yes. So for me, I feel like this is a hard movie for me to rank because I only saw it once in theaters, and like, I was pretty iffy on it when I first saw it. Um, I saw it before Carrie Fisher died, and then I saw it like the night before I went on Birthright, and then while I was on Birthright, Carrie Fisher passed away. So she passed away during the theatrical run, and I feel like after she passed away, the movie kind of–– You know, people like it because it's— objectively, it's a very well-made Star Wars movie. But I think the Carrie Fisher part of it really also contributes to how much you like it or not. I have it at number 7. It's a very— for me, it's in my mid-tier. I think personally, I agree with you. I think the film is very clunky in the first act because I remember being in the theater and it was like we're jumping from planet to planet to planet. Happened like 5 or 6 times. And I was like, when are we gonna go back to one of the planets that we were on before to like develop these characters? But yeah, I thought Act 1 was very clunky at least.

But I do agree, having watched the majority of Andor— I think I have like 3 episodes left— it makes Rogue One a lot better. I think, so that's why Rogue One is number 7 for me, although I totally see where you're coming from. And yes, the end is like badass, like with Vader and everything. It's so good,

Lee Pugsley
So good, so good. And that's really what keeps it from being probably number 12 or 11, is the end.

Alex Howard
Yeah.

Lee Pugsley
So we're back to you, and what's your number 10?

Alex Howard
My number 10 is Episode I: The Phantom Menace, which I know for a lot of people, like, it was their first Star Wars movie in theaters, especially people our age. Um, this was not for me, but I, I have so much nostalgia for the podracing scene because I remember getting this movie from Blockbuster and like watching it. The podracing scene was so cool. And then obviously Darth Maul with the double-bladed lightsabers. It's like there are things to like about this movie. Once again, the dialog is cringy, and you know, Jar Jar's there. I'm not gonna hate on him too much, but it's kind of a weird, silly character to throw into Star Wars. Like, no other Star Wars movie has that kind of character. It's not great, but I think it's certainly, for me, better than Attack of the Clones or Rise of Skywalker.

Lee Pugsley
That all makes complete sense. So for me, Episode 1 is number 8 on my list, and I think that's due to the fact that I saw it with my uncle in theaters. I remember really liking the podracing. I think it's really fun. I thought it was an interesting way to begin this trilogy, and it kept me engaged even though, once again, I was not fully into the Star Wars universe at all at that point in time. And this may have actually been the first Star Wars movie that I ever saw since I didn't grow up with the original trilogy. And I don't know, there's a feeling of nostalgia. I think it's fun. I think that there's really good world building, and it makes for some interesting characters even though I don't think they're all fleshed out that well. And I am a defender of Jar Jar Binks. I think that he's really fun, and I know that I'm very much in the minority here, and I stand proudly within that minority. I think Jar Jar Binks is really fun. I think that he adds a lot of humor. I really want him to be the Sith Lord, like that theory that came out in like 2015 or whatever. And if they made a Jar Jar Binks spin-off, I would absolutely be there for it. Now they're not going to do that, but if they did I would be there for it. And truthfully, I would say that Jar Jar Binks is 30% to 40% of why that movie is at number 8 on my list.

Alex Howard
I think the highlight for everyone also in Episode I is the "Duel of the Fates" score from John Williams during the fight with Maul. It's just so iconic and so good. It's like one of the best parts of all the prequels.

Lee Pugsley
100%. Overall, that's a great score as well. And Darth Maul and that fight is awesome.

Alex Howard
Yeah, I think one of the other reasons why it's low for me though is the, the movie is about trade negotiations. It's, it's so political that like even as a kid there were parts I was like, this part's boring, you know, just got to get through this to get to the lightsaber fight or the podracing or whatever. But I, I really didn't know the story like in detail of Episode 1 until I was much older.

Lee Pugsley
That's fair. And I do think that the pacing for the movie is a little uneven, and I do think it's arguably overly long as well.

Alex Howard
Yeah, so wow, that's crazy. So we've both done our 12 through 10, and we— they are completely different movies for all of us. So what is your number 9?

Lee Pugsley
My number 9 is Rise of Skywalker, which we already talked about, so I'll throw the ball back over to you for your number 9.

Alex Howard
Okay, my not a fan tier is the 10 through 12. So Solo: A Star Wars Story is my number 9. I do not hate this movie by any means. I know a lot of people say it was awful. I do not think it was an awful movie. I've only seen it once when I was in theaters. I actually just bought the SteelBook. I found it at a used record store for like $12, 4K SteelBook. I was like, nice. So I do need to rewatch it, but I remember actually having some fun with this. I think the only thing I didn't really like was the, you know, how he got his name was kind of dumb, and then some of the characters were a bit forgettable. But I mean, the end was so good. I love that they brought Darth Maul into it at the end. Like, I thought that was really interesting. I was really hoping they'd keep going with that, which I don't think they're going to because it didn't do very well. But, um, overall, I mean, I thought it was a pretty fun movie, and so it lands at number 9 for me.

Lee Pugsley
So interestingly enough, this movie lands at number 7 for me, and I agree with much of what you said. I think it's a fun movie. I don't think it's groundbreaking or revolutionary or anything, but I did enjoy this movie a lot. I think it's a fun adventure heist sort of film. I thought that Alden Ehrenreich did a really good job of capturing a young Han Solo, and I liked his relationship with Chewbacca. I liked Emilia Clarke in it. I do think there are some characters that don't do a whole lot and don't really add to the story, but beyond that, it's just— it's a fine movie. Like, there's nothing, once again, like I said, that is overly memorable about it, but it's a movie that I have watched more than one time, and every time I've watched it, I do enjoy it. And I do think, like you said, the most cringy part is how Han Solo gets his name. I think that that's such a throwaway moment for as big of a character as that is, and that's probably my biggest strike against it. Other than that, you know, if you're in the mood for just an entertaining kind of popcorn flick that puts you in a Star Wars-y mood, definitely check out Solo.

Alex Howard
I think it's interesting, um, that Phil Lord and Chris Miller were attached to direct and then they were fired partway through, and then they brought in Ron Howard. Because you can totally see their influence on this movie with the humor. Like, the skeleton is there. You can tell they had some involvement. And I, I wish I could see the final product where they carried it all the way through to the end, because I feel like that would have been a much different and a much better movie. I think Alden Ehrenreich had such huge shoes to fill that, like, a lot of people criticize him for his Han Solo performance. It was pretty good. Like, I was impressed with, you know, how much of a bar he had to meet. He did a pretty good job.

Lee Pugsley
Yeah, I completely agree with that.

Alex Howard
Cool. So what is your, um, number 8 then?

Lee Pugsley
My number 8 is Phantom Menace. So I'll throw it back to you for your number.

Alex Howard
Okay, mine was Mandalorian and Grogu. So then what was— and your 7 was Solo.

Lee Pugsley
Yeah, what's your number 7?

Alex Howard
And my 7 was Rogue One. So what's your number 6?

Lee Pugsley
My number 6 was Attack of the Clones.

Alex Howard
Okay, so we did that one too. So my number 6 is Revenge of the Sith. So I have grown a lot more love for this movie. I feel like I went through waves with this. Like, I liked it as a kid, and then there was a time where I was like, oh, this is actually pretty bad. And then now it's kind of back in. I do actually like this movie at the end of the day. It's really sad. I went to see this with my mom. She was going to take me. I remember I was in like 6th grade. I was so excited. So we went and the theater was vandalized. Someone had sprayed like fire extinguisher fluid in the theater. So we went to see Bewitched with Will Ferrell instead. So I never got to see Revenge of the Sith in theaters until last year. Yeah, until last year they rereleased it for the 20th anniversary. So I ended up going to see it at AMC. So that was really cool. But I love like the last 20, 30 minutes of this movie. Like the dialog is so cheesy, but I think the lightsaber fight is so cool on Mustafar.

Like it's one of my favorite fights in all of Star Wars between Obi-Wan and Anakin with the lava and everything. It's just, it's so awesome. And there are a bunch of parts of this movie where like they really set up A New Hope in a great way. It's almost like It's almost like they set it up too much because they have everyone in place where they're gonna be, and then A New Hope happens like 25, 30 years later. But I just— I think it's a great transition. I love, you know, Chewie, Yoda. It's just everyone's in it. It all kind of works together story-wise. I think the dialogue's iffy, but the story, I think, at its core is great.

Lee Pugsley
I completely agree with you, and Revenge of the Sith is number 5 on my list. Basically everything that you mentioned I fully agree with. I think the last 20 to 30 minutes is riveting. I also really am drawn into the Anakin-Obi-Wan relationship, and I think that Hayden Christensen did a way better job in Episode 3 than Episode 2, and Ewan McGregor as Obi-Wan is fantastic as well. And I think that relationship to me is really compelling in just the different nuanced dynamics of it, and also the way that it does set up for Episode 4, I think worked well for the most part. Like you said, I think there's some things that maybe feel just a little bit too convenient or coincidental, but overall I think that you understood the arc from episodes 1 through 3, and you really see the payoff of watching episodes 1 and 2 with episode 3. So yeah, I'm a fan of this movie, and I think that it's aged well for me over time from when I first saw it till now. I think that my appreciation for it has continued to grow.

Alex Howard
Oh yeah, definitely for me too. And I think in society it's aged very well too. I mean, it's definitely regarded as the best of the prequels, I think, because of that end fight scene is so epic. Do you quote this movie at all? I quote that last exchange between Anakin and Padmé and Obi-Wan. Like, I don't say a lot, but it's definitely one of my go-to scenes that it'll be like, you know, "from my perspective, the Jedi are evil." And like, you know, different things. I, I love that whole dialog scene. I think a little bit because the dialogue's a little cheesy. I think it's great. And you're right, he gives a great performance. I think for what he has to work with dialogue-wise, he does give a pretty good performance.

Lee Pugsley
Totally. And to answer your question, I don't quote that movie, but maybe I'll start. So that was my number 5, Revenge of the Sith Episode 3. Um, what's your number 5?

Alex Howard
My number 5 was Last Jedi.

Lee Pugsley
All right, then it's back to me. And my number 4, as controversial as this may be for some people, is Episode IV: A New Hope. I enjoyed this movie quite a bit, obviously, because it is in my top tier Star Wars movies. I think it does a really good job of introducing us to the world and setting up the characters of Luke and Leia and Han and just where we're headed for the next 2 episodes as well. Now keep in mind, once again, I did not grow up with the original trilogy, so the first time I watched Episode 4 was 2015, right before The Force Awakens. So I don't have the same level of nostalgia that other people do for this movie. I found it really good. I found parts of it, maybe with the visual effects and stuff, a little dated, but overall I understand why this would have been revolutionary at the time it came out and why these characters are so beloved. So it was a really good introduction into the Star Wars universe in the original trilogy.

Alex Howard
So this is my number 2. Yeah, I mean, I, I grew up with this movie. I think it's, it's fantastic. It's iconic. The Light and Magic series on Disney+ is amazing because it kind of goes through how they did the special effects and all the practical models and everything. It's fascinating. I mean, it makes you kind of watch the movie in a different way because you're like, oh, that's just a piece of black construction paper with holes poked in it instead of stars. This movie turns 50 years old next year, so I'm super excited to see it in IMAX. I— this is one that I've never seen on the big screen, and this is Star Wars, so this is the first one. It's iconic, so it lands at number 2 for me.

Lee Pugsley
I think if I had watched this growing up, I think this might be a little higher on my list, But once again, it's not a bad movie by any means. In fact, it is very groundbreaking, and I'm super excited to experience it on the big screen next year. And I fully give it its due for its place in cinema culture, pop culture, sci-fi culture, nerd culture, everything. I mean, it accomplished so much. And, and on the surface, it feels like just a sci-fi story, but there's so many deeper themes embedded within the Star Wars universe— political themes, emotional arcs. Loyalty, so many different things that exist within this universe. And yeah, it definitely is untouchable for those reasons, I would say.

Alex Howard
I also, when I watch this movie, I watched the De-specialized Edition, which for people who don't know, I mean, George Lucas famously changed a lot when he went back and did the Special Editions. He added CGI. He— the most notorious thing he made Han shoots second. And so I had never seen— that was the one I grew up with, was the Special Edition. And so they— someone online made like a fan version that it's called the De-specialized Edition, and it's so much better. It's like, it's weird how a little thing like having Han shoot first can completely change how you see the character, but it totally works for him because he's, he's a scumbag. He's not a great guy, uh, you know, he's kind of going with what he thinks is right for him. And so seeing him just kill Greedo, like, out of nowhere, it's so satisfying. So I definitely recommend looking up the De-specialized Edition. It does even have AD. I think they've added— they've edited the AD for it online. But, um, why I'm really excited is next year for the 50th, there are rumors that they will finally put out the theatrical, De-specialized Edition in IMAX next year.

So I, I've been waiting for Disney to release like the original theatrical cut. I'm really hoping that's what they do. I, I have refused to buy this as an adult on physical media. I don't have it on 4K because I'm waiting for them to release the original original one. So hopefully that'll happen.

Lee Pugsley
I'll be very excited for that if that does happen that way. All right, so my number 4 was Episode 4, and what's your number 4?

Alex Howard
My number 4 is episode 6, The Return of the Jedi. I think the only reason why it's 4 is because of the Ewoks. Like, they're cute, but like, I don't know, it kind of didn't–– it got kind of silly, I guess, a little bit. Um, Return of the Jedi is great, but yeah, I think the Ewoks is why it's kind of pulled down to number 4. Um, I mean, once again, it's iconic. It's one of the original Star Wars. Um, I love the stuff with Yoda. The— oh man, the opening when he goes to see Jabba the Hutt and frees Han Solo. Oh, it's so good. Just like, there's so many iconic parts in this movie. It's you know, I mean, yes, it's nostalgic, but it's also just like great cinema.

Lee Pugsley
I completely agree with that. And as crazy as this is gonna sound, Return of the Jedi is my number 1. And ironically, a big part of that is because I love the Ewoks. I think that they made that movie for me. I found them so fun, even though they're a little campy, and I don't deny that. They totally just drew me in, and I found them very charming. But beyond that though, I really like the redemption arc with Luke and Darth Vader, and I think that that father-son relationship played out is really interesting, and there's a lot of interesting dynamics with that. I'm always a fan of a redemption arc, so maybe that's why it got me as well. And I thought it was a really good ending to episodes 4, 5, and 6. And like you said, it's just cinematic greatness. So when we're ranking, you know, episodes 4, 5, and 6, even though we have them in a particular order I think all of them are fantastic, and putting one lower than the other still gives the due to all of them. I think that they all work as a complete trilogy really well.

Alex Howard
Oh, I completely agree. I mean, this is arguably the best trilogy in Hollywood history. I mean, you could, you could debate that, but it's in the conversation.

Lee Pugsley
Absolutely. All right, so we're back to me, and my number 3 is The Force Awakens. And a huge part of this being my number 3 is because I actually got to watch the world premiere, the cast and crew screening within— at the Dolby Theater. We were actually in the overflow in the Chinese Theater, but we did get to go to the afterparty. We got to watch the red carpet arrivals. And then, like I said, we were at the celebrity afterparty with all of the actors and other celebrities there. So it was a really surreal experience to be there because that was when Star Wars was being rebooted, and there was so much excitement over it. And I was just getting into Star Wars at that point in time. So regardless of what people think of The Force Awakens, this movie will always have a special place in my heart because I will always associate it with that epic experience of being there and capturing that cultural moment as it was happening. Uh, it was pretty amazing. But beyond that, the movie itself I thought was a really fun movie. I do admit that it did play it a little bit safe with kind of being a rehash of A New Hope. I thought that this movie did a really good job of the nostalgia play, bringing back the legacy characters like Han Solo and Leia and Chewbacca and C-3PO.

And then I thought the new characters that they added in— Finn, Rey, Poe, BB-8, who I absolutely love— were all really fun characters. And I thought that they set them up really well for the journey that they were going to go on. And I was actually really excited for where they were going to take these characters. I thought that visually the movie was done very well. I thought the score was really good, and it just got me really excited to launch into the next few episodes because of how the setup was. And once again, I do agree that they did play it safe, but I think this is a good example for me of safe isn't bad. I mean, I saw this movie in theaters like 5 times, I believe, so I'm actually a really big fan of The Force Awakens, and it's a movie that I feel like I can put on any time and still find enjoyment in, even if it's playing in the background or if I'm fully focused on it. It's just a really fun and enjoyable movie.

Alex Howard
Shockingly, this is my number 3 as well. I think this is the only one we're going to have in common. But, um, dude, The Force Awakens is like something else. I mean, this was my first Star Wars movie in theaters. Um, What was this, 2015? So I was— I had graduated from college already, but this was my most anticipated movie that year. I was beside myself excited. I don't know that I've ever been as excited for a movie as I was for The Force Awakens. And like, to have that level of excitement, like, I was counting down the hours. I was like, like marking the day, like, this is the day I'm going. It was like the whole month led up to that. I went with my mom and my brother and my girlfriend at the time. And somehow, it lived up to all of that expectation. And it was just so cool to be there, Thursday night opening with full crowd. It was, like you said, so nostalgic at times. I remember the trailer. I watched that trailer probably 50 times. It was so good. Just like, Chewie, we're home. It's so iconic. So even like sometimes the lines from the trailer will give me goosebumps because I've seen the trailer so many times.

But no, I think it's a fantastic introduction to Star Wars. Like you said, I was very excited to see where they went with it. But it was like great introduction of Poe and Finn and Rey. They really made you fall in love with these characters, but also like brought back the legacy characters in a cool way. I think it was the right way to go for our first movie in however many years. I think it was close to like 20 years since the, uh, Revenge of the Sith. But like, this was the great way to go to come back because it was calling back to the original original, and that's what you want to do. And then you want to go off and do your own thing after that. So, um, yeah, I was very happy with The Force Awakens. And I remember when Han died, it was just like, oh man, like that's what I think what it does really well is it makes you happy and nostalgic, and then they're just like, and now we're gonna crush your dreams. And like, you know, you're like, oh my God, it was emotional. It— I, I love The Force Awakens. I totally agree with you.

Lee Pugsley
And I think it's paced really well too. And to your point, I think they do a good job of balancing fan service with new adventures.

Alex Howard
Yeah, and honestly, like the feel... Like it feels like Star Wars, but it also feels like something new. Because yes, they went with the classic stuff, like the music and all of that, but it had that flair of J.J. Abrams' like cinematography. And so, you know, it kind of felt fresh and new at the same time. I also love all the little cameos of like Daniel Craig is one of the Stormtroopers and little things like that that kept coming out about the movie.

Lee Pugsley
100% agreed. All right, so we both have number 3 in common, and my number 2, which I know will not be your number 2, is Episode 5: The Empire Strikes Back. I know that this is the fan favorite from most diehard Star Wars fans, and I totally understand why. I think that Episode 5 took what Episode 4 had and built on that foundation really well. They deepened the characters— Han, Leia, Luke. They introduced new situations and some really good action pieces. And yeah, I don't know, I just felt like they took everything that Episode IV had and just made it deeper. Kind of like how I feel about Toy Story 2, is they took everything that we loved about Toy Story and they didn't take away from, they just added to. And that's exactly how I feel about Empire Strikes Back, is It's a very, very solid movie, arguably the best script of that trilogy in my opinion, and everything just hits exactly where it needs to.

Alex Howard
Oh yeah, I mean, this is my number 1. I completely agree with everything you said. It is so amazing. And like, like the opening in the snow down to— I mean, I have— I don't— if you're watching on YouTube, you can see my AT-AT popcorn bucket I got for Mandalorian, but it's also like for Episode 5. Um, and yeah, I mean, they, they start in the snow, have that thrilling scene, and then the closing is obviously the fight with Darth Vader and Luke, and then you have Han going into carbonite. It's just like there's no let up. Like, every part of that movie hits and works really well, and it's just, it's so awesome. And it's— I'm so jealous the people who got to see in theaters and didn't know about Darth Vader being Luke's father, like, that must have been the biggest brain twist ever. Like, it must have been like The Sixth Sense for us, you know? Like, I feel like growing up, you— it's pretty much the most iconic line in movies, "Luke, I am your father." And like, there's no way you don't know before you watch that movie at this point. But, um, I'm so jealous of all the people got to experience that for the first time, be like, what? That's so crazy.

Lee Pugsley
Yeah, that would have been amazing. I really wish I could have been alive for that moment. All right, so Empire Strikes Back is my number 2. And what was your number 2 again?

Alex Howard
My number 2 is the original Star Wars.

Lee Pugsley
A New Hope. And then my number 1 is Return of the Jedi. Your number 1 is Empire Strikes Back.

Alex Howard
Yeah.

Lee Pugsley
Okay, well, to sum up everything that we just talked about, we'll go through our rankings in order from 1 through 12. And Alex, I'll let you go first for this one.

Alex Howard
So my number 1 is Empire Strikes Back. My number 2 is Star Wars, the original. Number 3 is The Force Awakens. Number 4 is Return of the Jedi. Number 5 is Last Jedi, which I did not do that on purpose. That's cool, it goes Return and then Last. Number 6 is Revenge of the Sith. Number 7 is Rogue One. Number 8 is Mandalorian and Grogu. Number 9 is Solo. Number 10 is Phantom Menace. Number 11 is Attack of the Clones. And number 12 is Rise of Skywalker.

Lee Pugsley
Great. And here's my order. Number 1 is Episode 6, Return of the Jedi. Number 2, Episode 5, Empire Strikes Back. Number 3, Episode VII: The Force Awakens. Number 4, Star Wars: A New Hope, Episode IV. Number 5 is Episode III: Revenge of the Sith. Number 6, Episode II: Attack of the Clones. Number 7, Solo: A Star Wars Story. Number 8, Episode I: The Phantom Menace. Number 9, Episode IX: Rise of Skywalker. Number 10, Rogue One. Number 11, Mandalorian and Grogu. And number 12, Episode 8, The Last Jedi.

Alex Howard
Awesome. This was so much fun. Like, I'm— I love doing these episodes. We like doing interviews, but I also really love doing ones with just you and just talking movies.

Lee Pugsley
And this was a really fun episode because we didn't have the same rankings and very few things lined up. But I always feel like that makes for good dialog too.

Alex Howard
Oh, definitely. And for all of you out there, if you are wondering, all of these movies have audio description on Disney+ or in the case of Mandalorian, in theaters. And we would love to hear your rankings too and what you think of our rankings. So if you'd like to let us know what yours are, you can email us at DarkRoomFilmCast@gmail.com. That is DarkRoomFilmCast@gmail.com. You can also follow us on Instagram and message us there @DarkRoomFilmCast.

Lee Pugsley
And we'd also like to thank Matt Lauterbach and All Senses Go for making transcripts of this episode possible. And our editor for this episode, Jamie Gagnon. And thank you so much for listening, and we'll sign off by saying, may the Force be with you.

Alex Howard
May the Force be with you, guys.