Ep. 64: Close Up With Tansy Alexander, Audio Description Performer

Alex and Lee chat with audio description performer, Tansy Alexander, who has worked on franchises like "Stranger Things," "The Hunger Games," and "A Quiet Place." In our discussion, Tansy discusses her journey into audio description, what access for all looks like, and how AI is changing the AD landscape.

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Transcript

Lee Pugsley
What's up everyone, and welcome back to another episode of The Dark Room, where two blind cinephiles illuminate the sighted. My name is Lee Pugsley.

Alex Howard
I'm Alex Howard.

Lee Pugsley
And this is a podcast hosted by two legally blind guys for film lovers of all abilities. And today we are so excited for our very special guest, and we can't wait to just dive into so many fun and relevant topics. And Alex, I will let you go ahead and introduce our guest today.

Alex Howard
Yeah, so today we have Tansy Alexander. You've probably heard her voice. She is the audio description narrator for The Hunger Games, the first 4 seasons of Stranger Things, and many other projects. So welcome, Tansy.

Tansy Alexander
Hi, thanks for having me on the show. It's a great show, by the way.

Alex Howard
Oh, thank you, thank you. So I think to get started, I mean, we always start with our guests. How did you discover Audio Description, how did you get into doing this work?

Tansy Alexander
Oh, uh, gosh, it's been about 16 or 17 years ago. I'm a voiceover artist and I got thrown in the mix for an audition, basically, and had never even heard of audio description. It's kind of like a day that changed my life, really. And they put me through the hoops on a bunch of projects, rapid fire, and I was the one who got hired. So that's how it started. And from there, it just kind of expanded out as more and more companies were taking on audio description for their post-production work. You know, the person from the first company would go to the second company, and then they would call me and say, "Hey, can you come help us?" And that's just kind of how it came about to be my fingers in so many pies. Yep.

Alex Howard
Do you remember your first project?

Tansy Alexander
Um, that's so funny. I really don't. Uh, one of my first projects though was the one with Michael Fassbender and, uh, Michelle Williams, where it was kind of like, uh, almost like—

Alex Howard
Was it Shame?

Tansy Alexander
It was Shame. Thank you.

Alex Howard
Oh my God, I love that movie.

Tansy Alexander
Wasn't it great? But they didn't tell— I think it was like my second project, but, uh, that was like a softcore porn.

Alex Howard
Yeah, it was NC-17. Yeah.

Tansy Alexander
Right? And they didn't tell me because, you know, when you're describing that kind of project, sometimes, uh, you— they were actually kind of shy about it, but your linguistics should match the tone of the show, and they were kind of shying on it. But still, there was a lot of— if you remember, there was a lot of orgies and slam bangs in the bathroom, in the hallway, in the back, wherever it was. And I'm like, I, uh— luckily I'm not a shy person, so it was fine. And I really kind of laughed about it later. Yeah.

Alex Howard
That's so funny. I'll have to seek that out with AD because I didn't get to see that with description.

Tansy Alexander
[laughs]

Lee Pugsley
Now, what was your first experience actually watching audio description? Because I know that you said you went to an audition, you had no idea what audio description was. So it wasn't like one of those things where you discovered AD because you accidentally turned it on somewhere. So yeah, what was your first project that you actually listened to and watched with AD?

Tansy Alexander
I'm forgetting the name. I'm so sorry. It was Grace and Frankie. The audio description popped up and I was like, I'd already been doing it for years, for a couple of years or more, more, probably a lot more than that because I watched other stuff with audio description. I can't really remember. I just would turn it on and listen and see where it was, you know, where it was heading as a kind of as a business model. And what they were doing for the writing and who was working in the field. But when I turned on Grace and Frankie, it was on and it was a guy and it was a really nice voice. And I just started— I kind of wasn't even aware it was on at first. And then I realized it was on and I watched the whole show, all the seasons, listening to the audio description. It just really helped me to immerse myself. And then I started using it when I was driving up the coast to visit my folks and my family. And I would put Netflix on my phone and I would put the audio description on and then I could, you know, virtually watch a show while I was driving without looking at the screen. So that was a pretty exciting usage that I found, you know, watch a show while you're doing housework and doing chores without having to actually watch it. So it's like an audiobook. 

Lee Pugsley
Exactly. I always tell sighted viewers that those are the best uses for it. If you're making dinner, you're doing household chores, you're driving, you can still follow what's going on and then you don't have to go back and rewind it and be thoroughly confused by what you missed. So I'm glad that you are— so I'm glad that you tapped into that and found that secret and the benefit of that too.

Tansy Alexander
Oh yeah, it's great. Everything you just said. Yeah, chores, whatever. And, uh, I grew up where my father would listen sometimes to these old radio shows and I was kind of intrigued by that. But now what we have is we have that same kind of audiobook or radio show, but you have the real actors. You don't just have people in a studio pretending. Have you guys ever heard a radio show from the way olden days? Yeah.

Alex Howard
Oh yeah.

Tansy Alexander
Yeah. And they're kind of like, you hear a creaky door and you know, but now we have Fast and Furious. You've got sound effects, the cars, everything's included. So it's like the best kind of experience.

Alex Howard
You've done a lot of franchises like Hunger Games and Divergent. When did you start doing it like full-time, pretty much? Like, where—

Tansy Alexander
Oh, it wasn't that far into my— into the inception of this where it started becoming— I guess when I was at Deluxe, I was going in a lot. Switched at Birth was one of those projects that I worked on over there at Deluxe, and Disney was doing it, and they would come in, they would come in every week for one of my sessions, because I was recording multiple seasons. Like, you know, that's commonplace now. But they were catching up all these seasons. And so they would come in, different people from the department, who they didn't even know what audio description was in a way. You know, they were kind of come in and watch Tansy do it in the booth. So literally they'd sit outside the booth and just listen and it was a very unique experience, and I was going in like 4 days a week. So I would say that's when I started getting really busy. Yeah. 

Lee Pugsley
I'm curious to know then, you said that you came from a voice acting background. What did you discover was the difference between voice acting and audio description narration? Because there are similarities, but there's also nuanced differences. So how did that translate for you?

Tansy Alexander
It's a good question. I'm also an actor and I'm also a musician. I would say music really affects the whole thing with voiceover. So I would say music was inspirational in my delivery of voiceover for commercials and some trailers and things that I have done over the course of time. Because of pacing. And in acting, you're becoming a certain character or version of yourself. Like, you're the mom, you're the attorney, you're the boss, you know, you're the maid. Whatever you are, it's just you, you know, you becoming that person. Unless you're doing animation, then you're becoming a whole different character. You can be whatever you want like that, you know. But when you're yourself, in voiceover, you have to kind of relay everything through emotion and being the character, the goals of that character, just like in acting. In audio description, I kind of toss that aside. I'm just, I'm not any of those things. I am an extension of the project. I'm an extension of the music, the sound effects, the tone of what, you know, is it a rom-com? Are they laughing or are they crying? Did they just break up? So I'm not acting, I'm just melding into the moment to try not to jar the listener out of the experience. I'm there to not be a character but to guide the project along smoothly, kind of like an inner voice in your head. That's how I see it.

Lee Pugsley
I love what you said about guiding the project. I think that's spot on right there, is guiding the project forward and expanding and enhancing what's already there. And I know that you've done a lot of different genres. Out of curiosity, have you noticed different approaches even within the audio description performance in the different genres in how you would deliver something for maybe horror and then, like you said, romantic comedy or serious drama? What nuanced differences have you noticed there?

Tansy Alexander
Oh, so many. That's a great question. For some reason, I get cast a lot for horror films, Halloween and those kind of things. There's a dryness in my voice that I utilize to kind of traverse those kind of time periods where there's not a lot going on and there's not a lot of emotion. But when we're in a romantic comedy and they're kissing, you know, it's going to be a completely different, you know, they're kissing. It's a very soft, romanticized moment that I just want the viewer to kind of sail along with. Whereas when Freddy Krueger takes a knife and jabs it into someone's neck, you know, I'm going to deliver that with, or surprise. You know, the bomb blows up. I'm not going to just be like, the bomb blows up. You know, there's a— I'm with it. I'm with the energy of the music. So, um, I took a voiceover class years and years ago where they played music and had us read a commercial spot against the music, and then they would change the music and you would read the same commercial spot. And it's the way that it directs the delivery just by listening to the music or the silence, right? The silence––is pretty amazing because if there was a— I don't know, back in the early 1900s, there was this black and white footage that is used over and over in filmmaking classes. They show this group out in the middle of a field, and they're all like this, like a family, and they're all dressed really drab black, you know, back then. It's like 19— 10 or 20, and they play music that's somber, and you look out and you're like, it looks like they're at a funeral. That's— you just feel like this low energy and everyone's— you just imagine they're at a funeral. And then in the next take, they have the same scene, but they play it with this upbeat music, and suddenly you see it as a party. They're having a party out there. I don't even know where you can see that now, but that's— I know that's what they kind of were basing this exercise on in the class. And that is before I did audio description. And it taught me that that's the indicator, and that's why I was hired in the first place. Because at the first audition I had, they took me through 5 clips of like a military movie, then a rom-com, then a sci-fi, and the music, it really moves you into the right direction. Just when you're listening, don't you notice that? Like, we can get sad just by hearing the orchestra play a lot of stringed instruments. You know, and we can start crying even though the actors aren't even talking. So that's, uh, that's what I noticed. So anybody out there that wants to work in this area, practice against the backdrop of different kinds of music and see what it does to your delivery. Because that's what, in a show, that's what we're listening to them emoting, the actors, and we're listening to the music, sound effects.

Alex Howard
Do you have a certain genre that you is your favorite to work in?

Tansy Alexander
Um, I like romantic comedies, although they're really fast-paced usually. And I like dramas. I like dramas. I work in a lot of dramas, like, uh, Slow Horses. I'm sorry, we work under, um, fake titles for all our projects so that there's more anonymity to the project as it's being transmitted around. So sometimes I forget what the real titles are, but I had to go back and watch— I had to watch Slow Horses again later because of the way it was delivered to me. I couldn't appreciate it. What a great show. Have you guys watched Slow Horses?

Alex Howard
No.

Tansy Alexander
Oh my gosh. It's a great kind of— it's in Britain and it's— you've got—

Alex Howard
Is that Fassbender also?

Tansy Alexander
No, no. You've got the police and then you've got this group who is kind of like people who misbehaved in the police department. And the, like, detectives, and they get moved over to this other building and they're called Slow Horses. They're ridiculed and called Slow Horses, but they solve all these crimes. Oh, it's a great show. You guys should check it out.

Lee Pugsley
Yeah, it's been on my watch list for a while. I definitely want to check that out.

Tansy Alexander
There's so much now to watch, isn't there? Um, and it, it had audio description because I, I know I did the first, like, 3 or 4 seasons of it. And then again, projects move and they don't take the narrator with them. So I just have had to accept that. That's another sad thing, but it's just part of it.

Lee Pugsley
That's something that we talk about all the time on the show is we don't understand— we do understand, but we don't understand why projects move from one platform to another platform and the audio description track that the studio or whoever paid money for exists, but they don't take it with them. And I'm always like, why would you do that?

Tansy Alexander
I ask everybody I work with and they always say, oh, it's a licensing thing. But that's part of advocacy, right? That's what we should be advocating for, is that should be completely glued to the project. Like whatever they're paying to license, whatever it is, that thing should be glued and go. Just like closed captioning. It should all just be a package that goes from here to there. I don't— it's not about me. I don't care about my— but I listen to other people's stuff and like, why can't it just...? And why are companies having to redo it? They get a project, you know, it goes from this company over to Hulu, and then Hulu has to redo it?! You know, it's like, well, talk about a waste of time, right? When they already have it recorded. So yeah, what have you guys figured out on— has anybody made any headway to get that audio description track to move with the project? Is there—

Alex Howard
I've been definitely trying to help out with that. There was a title, Flow, for the Criterion Collection that they announced, and I knew it had AD that Liz Gutman wrote on Max. So I emailed Criterion and I was like, "Hey, I know you guys are doing this. Are you aware there's a track?" And they were like, no. So I connected them with Liz Gutman and then it got on the, on the disk. But yeah, I think a lot of it is like when they don't know what it is. And so I guess that's what we're trying to do on the podcast is educate as well.

Tansy Alexander
Alex, that's a good point. They might not even know it exists. They have no idea what it is, so they're not looking for it. You're right.

Alex Howard
I know you've done a lot of franchises. Is there a particular franchise where you're like, when you get another one, you're like, oh man, like you get excited? Because I know there's like a new Hunger Games coming out.

Tansy Alexander
I know, I've got people writing me. I've got fans. I've got a few fans. They write me, "Hunger Games is coming out. Are you doing it?" I don't know. Because I don't know what production— I don't know who's going to get the projects. If it's the original company I worked for, probably I'll get it. But... And I tell them, "I'm sorry." And I'll write the company. I have no control. We're all hired guns, right? We're hired guns. So I'm very appreciative of everything I've been given. There's no doubt there's been an abundance, but I have no control on what projects I get or where they go. And am I going to be on the next season? And it's just out of my hands.

Alex Howard
But is there a franchise that you particularly get excited for?

Tansy Alexander
Well, I was excited for Stranger Things. And then when I did the last season, I was— kind of sad. Oh gosh, there's just so many. And Hunger Games. Oh yeah, I loved Hunger Games. So I really hope to be attached to that. So many things have come and gone. You guys have listened to some of my stuff. Is there favorites that you have that are projects I've been involved with that made sense to you guys?

Alex Howard
Oh, for me, I mean, it's definitely Stranger Things. I bought the first season. It's like this VHS box with like the disks inside, and so, uh, your AD is on that. So when I went back and rewatched a couple years ago, I, I now associate your voice with Stranger Things. So I'll hear you in other projects, I'll be like, oh wait!

Lee Pugsley
I would say for me it's Stranger Things as well, also The Hunger Games. And then you did both Quiet Place movies, correct?

Tansy Alexander
Yes, that was interesting movies, right? Like. Those projects are really quiet. I'm sorry to use that title. They're so quiet and leaving those blank spaces is so mandatory to create the suspense. But again, there's so little dialog that my job becomes much larger because I have to describe everything because there is no dialog, right? You know, it's like they're whispering or nothing. And so it's all... It's pretty much all description and then long silences. I just thought that was such an amazing idea for a project, and it was scary. I was scared watching it, and it was just beautifully crafted. Did you guys— did you enjoy the movie?

Alex Howard
Oh yeah, I love— I love that franchise. I think especially with the AD, it's one of the more, one of the AD tracks that I point to for people that ask for an example of good audio description, because I think, like you said, the silence is really important. Like, you can't just fill it wall-to-wall with description because A Quiet Place, the whole point is the silence creates the tension. So you really have to have that balance of like telling us what's going on, but then also letting it speak for itself.

Tansy Alexander
Yeah. Yeah. Was it scary? To you? It was scary to me, and I was doing the description. I'm wondering—

Alex Howard
Oh yeah.

Tansy Alexander
I'm wondering if listening to the description— you guys both have a certain amount of sight, but with maybe without being able to see all the details at the exact moment, did you still feel that fright?

Alex Howard
For me, for me, definitely. I think in all, all three of them. What about you, Lee?

Lee Pugsley
Absolutely. I would say that the silences, the tension, the suspense, all of that is felt within the way that everyone found the balance for the sound or lack of sound to breathe along with the description as well. And I thought it was very well done, and I always give people, just like Alex, that as an example of really good audio description. And it's so unique too, and I'm curious to know, was A Quiet Place the first film that you had to approach in the way that you did because of how quiet it was and how lacking of dialog it was, especially the first one?

Tansy Alexander
Um, absolutely. Uh, but before I move on with the answer, I really have to give 99% of the credit for all my work to the writers. Uh, having, you know, doing a lot of live projects myself, I have to create the dialog as I go extemporaneously. The writers on almost every project I've ever done, and Liz Gutman is one of those on a couple–– I think she did Cold Case, a bunch of seasons of that. I worked on a couple of projects with her. But it's uh, the writers craft the dialog that I'm going to be saying and then I have to deliver it in a meaningful way. Trying to interpret what the writer wanted me to get across in conjunction with what I'm hearing and seeing. And The Quiet Place, the decision was to be more thoughtful in my delivery because it's quiet. It's not a full voice type of delivery unless they're running. They're running and there's this, you know, there's those moments in these movies where there's a tension and they're running and the music gets loud and you know, the creatures, but most of that, they're quiet, right? So that indicates my delivery right away that I'm going to be soft with it. I hope I achieve that. It's gonna be a softness in my delivery as they're creeping through the woods. You know, they're not creeping..... So that's something when people send, sometimes people send me a reel of something so I can listen to them for voiceover or audio description. And I'm not, it's not like I'm the expert on the planet, but I think that sometimes they don't understand their approach is maybe too heavy-handed or that. And that movie taught me to have to be very gentle and thoughtful.

Lee Pugsley
That makes sense. And one of the things I was also curious about when you talked about the collaboration with the writers as well, do you ever have any level of control as a narrator to go back to the writer if there's any suggestions that you have? For example, you're like, you know what, maybe we could use a different choice of word here, or maybe we don't need as much description here. I don't know what that collaboration is like in that regard, and I've always been curious to know what control, if any, the narrators have to make suggestions to the writers.

Tansy Alexander
Good question! I do not ever collaborate directly with the writers, but I have a certain amount of experience and a level of— my clients have a level of trust with me so that when I see something on the page that doesn't seem right or makes sense or doesn't really describe accurately what I'm seeing, or maybe it was written in Britain or somewhere else and there's a different kind of language, like it's not localized. Like we say trash can, maybe they're using the word— well, bin's not too far off, but boot or trunk, you know, there's different. So I'm able to, uh, kind of rewrite in that moment, record what I think it is. I always record the original as an alt that I can send them, and then I usually just send them a note, I changed these 2, 3 lines because of this. And, uh, generally I don't get–– They say thanks and they move forward. But I'm not actually collaborating with the writer. I'm usually collaborating at that point with the project manager or the QCer.

Alex Howard
For your process, I know you've been in this industry for a long time. How have you seen your process change over the years?

Tansy Alexander
I feel like, uh, sometimes when I'm listening back, I feel like it sounds like I was drugged because I'm cold reading. For the most part, I'm cold reading what I've never seen. It's scrolling or it's however it's delivered. We use many different DAWs, audio workstations, to create this content. And I listen back and find, like, I just feel like I'm in slow motion. I'm— I actually— do you guys turn up the speed when you're listening to stuff now? Because now we have an option to make it faster.

Lee Pugsley
I will do that sometimes on like YouTube videos or podcasts depending on what it is, but on movies I never do that, or TV shows.

Tansy Alexander
How about you, Alex?

Alex Howard
Um, I don't do it, but I know Lee has a really good memory so he's able to do it.

Tansy Alexander
Uh, oh, that's funny. I, I listen to podcasts now, I turn them up to 1.75 the speed, like, and I learned that from listening to some of my clients who said they speed things up. So some of my stuff I record, I feel like the cold reading— so I try to look at the sentences now before I read them really quickly so that I don't sound like I'm like this. Um, that's part of— and that's part of my process. That's something that's changed. And I just, um, it's kind of second nature to me now. And I really would love to get more feedback on what's— what viewers think of, of how we're all doing. So you guys are reviewing movies, and I would like to see, even the audio description, without slamming anybody, I'd like to know if there's a better way to do it or words that would be more meaningful or descriptors that would be more meaningful. So part of my process that's changed is I try to think more like somebody who can't see everything on the screen now. That's— it's a big part of my process.

Lee Pugsley
Are you able to be in touch with the blind and low vision community and viewers within that community to get feedback currently?

Tansy Alexander
Um, I would love to be able to do some surveys. I've got individuals that I ask questions of, you know, there's the changes I'm seeing in the industry are not fast enough for my liking, honestly. Uh, you know, I'd like to know if, if, if it's relevant to anybody, like what people look like, how tall they are, what color their skin is, what, how do they wear their hair, you know, From my knowledge, understanding, most people who have low vision or are blind have seen at some point in their life. So they've probably seen buildings and mountains. They know what skyscrapers look like. They know what red looks like. So is it important, or, you know, is it important to know what somebody's background is, nationality? Are they large? Are they small? Are they thin? Are they wide? I see some feedback in some of the discussion groups, and I try to take that to heart, you know. So I kind of try to advance via those kind of commentaries I see. Um, nobody wants to feel like they're pigeonholed into a category that is unflattering. So I try to find other words to describe. You understand in wrestling, do you guys ever listen to or watch wrestling? Because you have people that are thin, you have people who are small, short, muscular, really kind of eat too much, people in— I don't want to describe them in in negative terms. I just— you're laughing, Alex. I want to describe them more in a way that people can kind of identify that they have a larger opponent. You got somebody who's like 135 pounds against somebody who's 300 pounds, you know? 

Alex Howard
Yeah. So when you're doing the live WWE description, you're basically the writer when you do that too, right?

Tansy Alexander
Exactly. It's extemporaneous. Like, they come out and I'm like, oh, you know, Charlotte's wearing a a blue coat with a feathery Medici collar. And, you know, just you learn, like, you know, some of the names of the moves. I can learn. I've learned them, but they may have a special name. I've never watched wrestling before I got involved. And for this guy, it might be called an Alabama Slam, and the same exact move for someone else will be called something else. But it's the same to me. It looks like the same move. So...

Alex Howard
Do you––

Tansy Alexander
It's interesting.

Alex Howard
Do you do that from your home? The live description?

Tansy Alexander
Yeah, I do it from my home studio, which is not this. I have a booth, but I didn't want to sit in my booth for this because, as we were saying before this interview, audio description is a very alone job, you know? Yeah, it's very alone. So yeah, it's fun to do live stuff. I was mentioning earlier, I just was, uh, went up to Apple. Apple will use me for some of their, like, developer conference, product release, and they called me up for a project in March, and I had no idea what it was. It's through a client, and I had no idea what it was. They didn't know what it was. Um, I couldn't find it online, and so I said, okay, I'll be there. So they flew me up and all that, and then, um, I got this call sheet that said, uh, musical artist. And the band. And so the next morning when I got up in the hotel, I was like, musical artist? Wow, wait a minute. This is like, you know, I grew up in the Bay Area and this is up in San— in Cupertino. And so I was like, oh, wait a minute, isn't Apple celebrating their 50th anniversary? Wait a minute, Paul McCartney was just in Los Angeles for a 2-night gig. And that was on Friday, Saturday, and this was Monday morning. And I'm like, oh my God, it's going to be Paul McCartney! Paul McCartney's going to play! And I look online, I'm like, where's Paul playing on March 31st? And it said rumors— rumor has it that Paul McCartney will be playing at Apple on March 31st. Of course, I was very excited. I'm a Beatles fan. I jam in a Beatles group. I'm not the greatest guitar player, but I play guitar and stuff. And, um, and I was really excited and it was, it was Paul McCartney. So we had a rehearsal that night and then the show the next night. So one of my most favorite projects that I've done so far.

Lee Pugsley
That's awesome. I would love to see Paul McCartney in concert or live to any capacity. And speaking of your work with live audio description and kind of the whole extemporaneous nature of that, what are the challenges for you?

Tansy Alexander
Well, A, it's not scripted, as you just said. So now, even if I'm getting a rundown of vaguely what's going to happen, and sometimes I'm not, sometimes it's cluttered with a lot of technical stuff going on with cameras and other stuff. It happens really fast, and it's having to make that split-second decision on what I think might be important to the low vision or blind viewer. You know, maybe they're dancing. So let's say the Rose Parade. I did that a couple of times. So you've got a float which is beautiful flowers and seeds and people are on the float and then people jump off the float and you've got a famous singer on and they're on the, you know, on the asphalt at the road right next to the float. And the singer's singing the song that everyone wants to listen to, but right next to the— on both sides flanking the singer will be people dancing with colorful outfits and leaping through the air and doing cartwheels. You know, do I interrupt Paul McCartney? Do I interrupt this singer? Do I— to describe these actions that are going on, what's— you know, it's— I have to guess what is important to the viewer. Do they want to know that there's dancers cartwheeling and throwing each other in the air, or do they just want to listen to the song? And maybe I'm going to ask you guys that question right now. Do you want to know what's happening next to the singer on the stage when Christina Aguilera or your favorite rapper or whoever you listen to— do you want to know what's happening around them?

Lee Pugsley
That's a great question, and I think Alex and I might have slightly different answers on this. So for context, I'm a very big musical person, so I love watching movie musicals. And oftentimes there's that balance of them describing, you know, the dancing that's happening even over orchestral dance breaks. And I'm always the person that would rather just listen to the lush orchestrations rather than describing the dance moves that are there. But that's just me. And also, I usually come with a lot of familiarity with whatever musical I'm watching, so I don't necessarily need the dance moves described to me. I'd rather just take in the music itself. And within the Rose Parade or any other live performance, I would want to know maybe key things like Christina Aguilera is wearing a white dress with flowers, but beyond that, I'm okay just taking in the music and letting the music do the work for me. Once again, I'm one person in that, and I know that everyone's gonna have a different viewpoint on that. But Alex, what are your thoughts?

Alex Howard
Yeah, for me it's really a fine line because, I mean, when I saw Wicked, the first Wicked movie, I would take out the earbuds sometimes during the songs because, like, I want to hear them singing. I don't want to hear them talk over the songs. But then, like, I know with other things, sometimes my, my mind changes. I think with Wicked, it's because I knew the songs and it was part of the emotion, the nostalgia and all of that. But if I don't know the songs, I think I want to know more of the choreography, especially if it's like part of a story or something like that. But I do think there's a fine line of like, how much do you talk and how much do you let— it's almost like A Quiet Place is the same kind of thing.

Tansy Alexander
Yeah, so I treated the Paul McCartney concert like The Quiet Place. Yeah, I was— my mind predetermined to not interrupt their songs unless absolutely necessary in a break, like in a, you know, between a verse and a chorus where it's just like a little short interlude, because the fans came to hear him and him sing. They didn't come to hear me. So I had to make that decision, and there was only a couple times when I would say anything in the middle of the song. There was fireworks going off above the Rainbow Stage. It looks like the Hollywood Bowl, but it's Rainbow. It's, uh, in Apple Park. And, um, there was a couple times where the background had something, but it was a really tough decision because I've been trained to also, you know, I do Dance Moms, which is a show about those women that are fighting over their kids that are dancing. And we have these long dance numbers, but nobody's singing a famous song. So I'm not having to worry about that, right? But there are known songs that we all listen to. So there's a— those are scripted. So there's a balance. I notice how the writers write, you know, there's some leaping through the air because it's a dance show. It's about these kids competing. But when Paul McCartney or the Rose Parade is going on, people are there to hear like Christina Aguilera, whoever's on the road, they're there to hear them. They're not— I mean, they're taking in the dancing. But thank you guys for sharing your perspective because I just want to hear that kind of feedback from two people who I consider to be experts in the area, both due to your low vision, but due to your advocacy and your rating movies. And, you know, you guys are really involved in this in so many ways. It's important for me to hear back from the community. So thanks.

Lee Pugsley
Well, thank you for, uh, asking us as well.

Alex Howard
Yeah, no, thank you so much, especially coming from you, like a voice that we recognize. That means a lot. But I mean, since you've been doing WWE for— so you said 6 years, right?

Tansy Alexander
Yeah, 6 and a half years now.

Alex Howard
So they must— I mean, obviously they like how you how you do it, how you write the description pretty much. And in the moment, are there certain things that you find that you've gotten positive feedback on? Like, I'm sure, I'm sure you're not like, you know, "in this corner, we have," you know, you're not doing the announcer stuff. But––

Tansy Alexander
No, no, no, no. You'd be surprised how little feedback there really is, probably because, you know, I think that these companies are trying to do something for some of their fan base, but I don't think they always completely understand what audio description is or the process. I have conflicting scenarios where the two announcers who narrate, who do the whole, you know, there's the color commentary and the straight guy, right, that are doing the announcing. They start going off on this kind of fluffy, repetitive stuff. Meantime, there's a bout going on in the ring and people are flying through the air and getting smashed and hit with a chair, and they're not talking. They're talking over it all. And so I have to kind of break that cardinal rule in every single broadcast. I have to make these quick decisions. Do I describe what's going on in the ring? Or— I'm telling you, these guys aren't giving–– They're just like, "Oh yeah, you know, it's been a tough season. And, you know, so-and-so's been over, you know, here. And, you know, he had some tough times last month." And I'm thinking there's a whole match going on! Does the wrestling fan want to know what's happening in the ring, or do they want to listen to these guys just shooting the breeze? You know what I mean? And nobody gives me that feedback. So I just, when something exciting happens, I just quickly interject and get out of there and let them carry on. But those are things I would love feedback on. You know, should I just be quiet during all of the bout, even though they usually jump in about two-thirds of the way through. And they'll be like, "Oh, look, he did a vertical suplex." Or they'll say like, "Oh, wow, that was great." What was great? Or, "Look at that. Wow, he got him back." And I'm thinking, well, if I'm blind, I'm like, "Got him back? What are you talking about?" That's when I'd be asking the person next to me like, "What just happened? What just happened?" So that's what's in my head all the time is, if I— would I be asking like, what just happened? What just happened? And should I describe it? And I don't get enough feedback, to be honest with you. So that's where I'm at.

Lee Pugsley
I haven't watched wrestling before with audio description, but I will give it a watch and let you know what I think, because that does sound like a very interesting challenge to know, should I talk over these people? Because there is something actionable happening that the blind audience would want to know about, or do I just let things play out so they can hear the banter?

Tansy Alexander
Yeah, the banter's, uh, if I feel like it's just kind of repetitive and just like they're filling time, if they're advertising for the pay-per-view event coming up, or I try to steer clear for a moment, but they do that throughout the show. Yeah, it's Friday nights. Friday nights on USA Network if you wanna listen.

Lee Pugsley
Yeah, I'll check it out. And as we start to wrap up here, one last question to dive into, and I'm sure we could do a whole podcast episode on this question alone, but you being in the audio description field, I'm curious to know how AI is changing the game for audio description, whether for better or worse. We just have to admit that it's here in every field of work and it's not going anywhere.

Tansy Alexander
Yeah, that is definitely one of the ways that audio description has and is changing. Even in our contracts, you know, we don't want someone like stealing our voice and just creating new audio description episodes without, you know, including us or compensating us. But it's here to stay. And my friends, you know, everyone, I watch the discussions. I'm just going to give my opinion. I hear over and over like, oh, it's just not good and nobody wants to listen and it's going to go away and they want live voices. I'm a musician. I remember when analog turned to digital. Equipment, amps, microphones, a lot of digital equipment came out and it was kind of cold and tinny at first. And people would be like, "Oh, that doesn't sound good. You can tell that it was made with digital and not analog." But over time, they warmed it up. And pretty much everything we hear on air now, in some part of it or all of it, is made with digital equipment. And we can't tell the difference, or we've become kind of immune to the difference. And that's where I think AI is going. It's, um, a young guy who's was blind at birth. He became a super fan of Stranger Things, and he— we've kept in touch this whole time. His name's Eric, and we've kept in touch. Now he's in his 20s, and I went, I watched his high school graduation, and he keeps me abreast of where AI is. And one day last year, he sent me a reel of himself— AI takes on his own voice. And I was listening to it, and I've heard his voice, and I was listening to this, and I, I couldn't tell. I really couldn't tell it was AI. And I thought, this is where we're going, because he's on top of it. He's like at the cutting edge, listening and listening, going, wow, it's really getting better. So yeah, I'm sorry, it's here to stay, and I think it will take over a lot of this work, put me out of work, I suppose, but provide more content for the viewer, and it will become more warm and fuzzy. And, you know, as long as there's a QC'er like you guys to listen to the product and say that part didn't sound good, and then they'll just redo that part, that's where I see it going, honestly. It's going to get warm and fuzzy like the way the music equipment did. It's just a matter of time. Live, I'm not sure about live yet. That will be a longer process. You know. 

Alex Howard
Yeah, it'll be really interesting to see where everything goes.

Lee Pugsley
It seems like live would be a lot harder to do AI. I mean, I'm sure they're already brainstorming how they can get that done, but live anything is never going to be the same without human voices and human presence there.

Tansy Alexander
I know we say that. However, it's going to get so good that you might not know that it's not a human. And that young man, Eric, sent me last— a year and a half ago, AI could describe all the elements in this picture, like this complicated picture. And he sent this to me and it had the voice, you know, the AI. And I was just like, oh my gosh, you know, like "a red, red rose sits in a red vase on the table on the left." It's more of a matter of selecting what might be important on the, on the go, you know, but it's, it's en route. So I have no doubt that within 5 to 10 years it could definitely be in the mix. So yeah, I like listening to a live voice, but what happens when we can't tell the difference?

Alex Howard
Wow. Yeah.

Tansy Alexander
That's just my honest take on it. I hate the thought because this career path for me has been— I just love helping people. I get to be creative. It's like for me, audio description is like playing a video game. It's a lot of elements going on, and I'm just kind of going with it. And, and I earn a living, so it's— it kind of checks off all my kind of boxes of what a good career path is. So I'll be sad when it's gone.

Alex Howard
Yeah.

Tansy Alexander
[laughs wryly] But I'm realistic.

Lee Pugsley
Yeah, yeah, it's that tough balance in today's culture of being realistic about where we're at and finding out how do we adapt to this and still continue to make a living in some way. It's something that we're all struggling with in every field right now.

Tansy Alexander
Yeah, because maybe the interviewer in the future is going to be AI.

Yeah.

Right? So if you're right, you said it. How do we adapt and fit in? You know, I, I love what I do, to do the voice, and maybe that won't be available to me. I don't know, maybe, but there's other parts to this system that need QC'ing, project management. There's so many other aspects, you know, where can I fit in or not? That's what I ask.

Alex Howard
So it'll, it'll be really interesting. And then obviously with Waymo and self-driving cars, all that stuff too.

Tansy Alexander
Yeah, wouldn't that be exciting, Alex, if, if you owned a self-driving car? Not— you don't even have to get Waymo. You just have a car in your driveway and you just— because I don't know what would be most economical, but let's say it was cheaper for you to own the way, like a self-driving car, right? Some of the Teslas kind of drive themselves now. And then you just go out and you get in the car and you say, take me here, and off it goes. And, you know, it's kind of exciting to think that that's how it can be.

Alex Howard
Yeah, that, that would be amazing. I know they're scanning Burbank, Glendale, Pasadena right now. I don't know if they're scanning over where you are yet, but Waymo is about to launch over, over by us. And I'm hoping it'll time out with when I get my guide dog because I know people have trouble. Like, Ubers aren't allowed to cancel on you, but they do because it's their personal car and they don't want a dog in their car.

Tansy Alexander
Oh yeah,

Alex Howard
Well, Waymo, it's no one's car. So you can just have your guide dog in there.

Tansy Alexander
Oh, that's great. Yeah. I had to take my dog. I had to use a Lyft to take my dog when I went to Apple. So I had to take— my car broke down the night before.

Lee Pugsley
Oh no.

Tansy Alexander
Yeah. I developed a coolant leak, a major coolant leak, like all the coolant came out. And so I was like, oh shoot, what do I do? And so in the morning I'm like, okay, a Lyft. Is there a Lyft that takes a dog? And yeah, I found a Lyft that took the dog because I had to drop my dog off at the place where he stays and then go to the airport.

Alex Howard
Yeah.

Tansy Alexander
I thought, yeah, what if the guy cancels on me on the way over? Like, what if nobody wants to take a dog in their car? So good point.

Alex Howard
Yeah. 

Tansy Alexander
Good point. Good point.

Alex Howard
This has been so great, Tansy. Thank you so much for coming on. I know you're like— we always joke that like to blind people, like some of the audio description narrators are like celebrities. You're definitely one of those.

Tansy Alexander
Oh my gosh. Well, I'm just a normal person. Thank you for being so kind. It's really sweet of you to say that. Thank you.

Lee Pugsley
And before we go, just one last thing to leave us with. How would you answer this question? Why does audio description matter?

Tansy Alexander
It matters because everyone should be included in the enjoyment of life. It's not— I'm not just going to say TV and movies. It's life. And to be able to have a describer in your ear to tell you about the landscape in front of you out in the real world is just as important as having somebody describing to you what's on TV, what's in movies, what's in the stage production, so that you can have conversation and be included in all communities for that water cooler discussion, basically. Access is everything, and I believe in equal access for everyone.

Lee Pugsley
I love that. I think that's the perfect way to sum it up. And if people want to follow you or see what you're doing, is there any social media that you have or anything you want to plug?

Tansy Alexander
Nothing to plug because I'm under so many NDAs. There's— I don't know what I'm allowed to talk about or not talk about, but, uh, but I do have a Facebook page, uh, Voice by Tansy Alexander, and a lot of people reach out to me there. That's pretty much the best place.

Alex Howard
What was your latest project that got released? Do you remember?

Tansy Alexander
Well, right now I'm— I can't talk about what I'm working on right now. See, that's pretty awful, isn't it? Because everything's—

Alex Howard
I guess Friday nights you have the WWE SmackDown.

Tansy Alexander
Yes, I have that every week. But I'm working on some projects right now. I was just finished The Comeback about the actress that's making a comeback. But see, that was a show I came in on season 3, so I don't know who did the first 2 seasons, but they lost the show.

Alex Howard
Do you know what channel that's on?

Tansy Alexander
I think it's HBO.

Alex Howard
Okay.

Tansy Alexander
Just to give you perspective, when you're going through so many projects, they kind of like go in and out.

Alex Howard
Oh, for sure.

Tansy Alexander
They just kind of go in and out. Like, I'm just involved and then I literally wish I had that kind of photographic memory. But, uh.

Alex Howard
When we did this podcast, Lee and I were like, we need to choose. Are we doing movies or TV? Because if we do both, we're going to have no life. We need to choose one.

Tansy Alexander
[laughs] Oh, that's right, because you have to watch them all too.

Alex Howard
Yeah.

Lee Pugsley
Yeah.

Tansy Alexander
Review, yeah. Oh, maybe before we go, um, what's your favorite TV series on right now?

Alex Howard
Oh, TV series?

Tansy Alexander
Yeah, that's on the air right now maybe, or, or that, you know, you guys are involved with.

Alex Howard
Well, right now I'm watching The Boys, Invincible, and Daredevil just ended, so all three of those are running at the same time.

Tansy Alexander
Yeah, The Boys is a big show, isn't it?

Alex Howard
Yeah, I just got tickets to see the finale in theaters.

Tansy Alexander
Oh, wow.

Alex Howard
Yeah.

Tansy Alexander
That's exciting. Yeah, that's a really, uh, successful show. I, I've seen some of it. I got to keep watching it. And what about you, Lee?

Lee Pugsley
I would say, even though this is kind of old news, I'm currently in the middle of The Pit, and I'm really enjoying that show. I was a little late to the begin, but everyone kept talking about it, and I figured I had to check it out, and I'm really enjoying it so far.

Tansy Alexander
Oh, that's great. I haven't seen that at all. I'll put it on my list to watch.

Alex Howard
That's one I need to give another chance because I know Lee's memory is much better than mine, but there's like tons of characters, so you need to remember the names of all the people to follow what's going on. I know it's really fast-paced, so I need to watch that when I can pay more attention.

Tansy Alexander
Yeah, I'm not good at doing that myself, but I guess when you can't see their faces, you have to remember their names, right?

Alex Howard
Yeah.

Tansy Alexander
And so if you're kind of forced into that, yeah, well, that's good. Thanks for the recommendations. There's so many shows to watch nowadays that nobody has time for all of them. So.

Lee Pugsley
Absolutely, it's true. It's a pick and choose sort of climate right now.

Alex Howard
Yeah. And I think in terms of what we were talking about before, just to wrap up and bring it back, I know you were talking about like what to describe, you know, in terms of picking and choosing. Um, I thought Sheep Detectives, the movie that's out right now, did a really good job of that. They really described like the different looks of the sheep, which I did not expect them to do. And so it really made you like kind of identify what voice goes with what sheep, and they did a great job of that.

Tansy Alexander
Sheep Detectives?

Alex Howard
Yeah

Tansy Alexander
I've even heard of this. That's funny. What a funny name. Oh, they're actual sheeps? Are they animated or what?

Alex Howard
It's like, it's like a Babe meets Knives Out kind of a thing.

Tansy Alexander
Oh, I love Knives Out.

Alex Howard
Yeah, so it's like a murder mystery and the, basically the sheep's shepherd, I guess–– shepherd gets murdered and so they're trying to figure out who did it. It's really cute.

Tansy Alexander
I'm writing it down. Sheep Detectives. Thank you. That's so funny. Well, thanks you guys for having me on and, uh, if you ever want to do a sequel, let me know. We'll meet up again down the road. Okay?

Alex Howard
Oh, definitely.

Lee Pugsley
We're game for that for sure. And thank you all out there for listening. If you want to contact us about anything that you heard in today's episode, you can reach us at DarkRoomFilmCast@gmail.com. Once again, that's DarkRoomFilmCast@gmail.com. And you can also follow us on Instagram and subscribe to our YouTube channel @DarkRoomFilmCast.

Alex Howard
And we'd like to thank Matt Lauterbach and All Senses Go for transcripts of this episode.

Lee Pugsley
Thank you all once again, and we'll see you back here next time on The Dark Room.

Alex Howard
Take care, guys.