The End with Special Guest Gerard Clarke | Zombie Book Club Ep 86

Join us as we sit down with Gerard Clarke, author of the debut novel The End. This sweeping zombie apocalypse epic takes readers on a years-long journey through survival, moral dilemmas, and the resilience of humanity. From the fall of civilization to the rise of new communities, Clarke’s novel explores what it means to rebuild when everything familiar has crumbled. We dive into the creation of his overwhelming hordes, the cinematic inspiration behind his writing, and the unique characters like Navy SEAL William Hawkins and the mechanically gifted Maya. Plus, we discuss his upcoming teleplay adaptation and future projects. Tune in for a deep dive into The End and the mind behind it!

Contact Information for Gerard Clarke:

• Amazon Author Page: amazon.com/author/gerardclarke
• Instagram: @GerardClarkeAuthor
• X (Twitter): @GClarkeAuthor

Transcript

Speaker 1 0:20

Welcome to Zombie Book Club, the only book club where the book is an odyssey, but with zombies and no giant cyclopses, as far as I can tell. I'm Dan and when I'm not embarking on my own odyssey, my Honda Odyssey cue laugh track. I'm writing a book about the end of civilization that I only hope is half as epic as the end.

Meet Author Gerard Clark

Speaker 2 0:40

And I'm Leah, and today we're talking with a zombesty and fellow indie author, gerard Clark, about their debut fast-paced zombie apocalypse novel, the End. Originally from Ireland, gerard has lived in the US and Canada, giving his book a global perspective. Currently based in Hampshire, uk, gerard published the End in June 2024 after many years of juggling a family and career and is now working on a teleplay adaptation. Welcome to the show, gerard. We're so glad to finally be talking to you, yeah thanks for having me and really good to be here.

Speaker 2 1:09

Feels like it was, uh gone for a long time yeah, we've been chatting on our Discord feels like we're all like a big Zom family. That's the thing.

Speaker 1 1:18

Your book has been sitting on our coffee table for I feel like months at this point yeah, we have it right here with us.

Speaker 2 1:24

You can see it.

Speaker 3 1:25

It's being blocked by my background, but it's here yeah, I think it's probably probably too scary to be on there.

Speaker 2 1:31

That's why it's getting blurred off it is true, you have a very disturbing zombie on the cover and then a bunch of other disturbing ones, but the first one that's closest is quite Corey so we have some, we have some very important questions, the most important.

Speaker 1 1:45

You could say some, and very rapid. We call, we call them rapid fire questions. That's what it says right in our right, in our notes. Um, so are you ready? Are you ready for these very important questions that will definitely judge you on I, I am ready, but yeah, um your choice. Do you choose fast or slow zombies?

Speaker 3 2:08

I think slow, um, I, I think, um, yeah, like, if you're going cinematically, like the fast is kind of it is good for that kind of jump square thing. But I think, um, yeah, slow zombies getting overwhelmed and not knowing what to do, panicking, and yeah, I think it's much more realistic and it might be, um, and it's something that I, yeah, I like to write, kind of people getting overwhelmed and absorbed by a very nice horde of zombies like the cover of your book yeah when it's yeah precisely what is a horde of fast zombies?

Speaker 1 2:44

that's just a wave of death. Like that's quick, it's too.

Speaker 3 2:47

it's like it's not the overhaul. What are you going to?

Speaker 1 2:50

do you know? It's just like you're dead. You're dead now.

Speaker 2 2:54

Yeah, you don't get like the slow death scenes of people being torn apart, yeah, which are really important.

Speaker 3 2:59

Dragged into a live shot.

Speaker 1 3:02

Exactly, yeah, yeah, exactly yeah, yeah, um, exactly yeah, you get to choose 40 hour work week um or the zombie apocalypse currently the last few weeks that I've had.

Speaker 3 3:13

I'd take this on the apocalypse. I'm so sorry. Yeah, no, I just I started a new job in the new year. I'm a contractor, so I kind of change jobs every year and, yeah, the latest one is, yeah, it's been thrown in the deep end and it's pretty chaotic.

Speaker 2 3:43

So yeah, right now I'm thinking zombie apocalypse looks pretty good right now Are the metaphorical zombies, fast zombies in this new contract.

Speaker 3 3:48

Yes, everything is flung at you fast and yeah, it's taken quite a bit to pivot from 9 to 5.30. My day is back to back and it's yeah, I'm sorry to hear that, yeah, no, no, it's all good Like I do enjoy what I do, but yeah, right now it's pretty intense.

Speaker 2 4:12

So full-time zombies 24-7, versus 9 to 5.30 back to back. I'm with you, yeah.

Speaker 3 4:19

Yeah, yeah, I think, yeah, I think I'd probably be good at dodging the zombies. But yeah, I think I'd probably be good at dodging the zombies.

Speaker 1 4:28

Yeah, I can't dodge my work right now. That's a good point. Yeah, every new job I've ever started felt like apocalyptic like at least for a month. It's just like this is way too much. Usually my first month on the job I'm like I don't care if I get fired.

Speaker 3 4:45

That's a great attitude to have. I kind of do like yeah. I do that like yeah, for the first, yeah, a couple of months. I'm like you know, because, yeah, it takes getting used to and you're kind of getting up to speed with things, especially like if there's a project like, and you're right in the middle of it and, uh, yeah, it's like I constantly think, yeah, like any day, now they they're just going to tell me your shit, you need to go, yeah, yeah. Then I last year and I was like, yeah, what was I worried about?

Slow Zombies vs Fast Zombies

Speaker 1 5:12

Yeah. And then you ask them later and they're like no, you were great. It's like really, so it's the zombie apocalypse. You got your slow zombies and, minus the 40-hour work week, you're living life. Really, what is your weapon of choice?

Speaker 3 5:33

Yeah, weapon of choice, I would probably go with a fire axe. Yeah, because I think it's easily accessible. I think if you're running away, there's probably going to be somewhere in a building that you can confiscate, and um, yeah, I think it'll.

Speaker 1 5:53

It'll do you good yeah, multi-purpose too, like you know you need to get in through a door, a window.

Speaker 2 5:58

I mean, that's kind of what they designed it for have you personally noted where all of the uh fire axes are in your town? I?

Speaker 3 6:06

do kind of like yeah, like when I go into a building, I do kind of take note that there is one, like I think it might be something in the back of my head that I am doing it.

Speaker 1 6:16

Um, not constantly thinking like, yeah, there may be an apocalypse about to break out, but I do notice if there's an axe there, yeah, yeah, you're what you're walking through like a stairwell and you see like the, the fire axe and the fire extinguisher and you're like dips, that one's mine, guys note the way back um, so you got your fire X, you're, you're, you're swinging through zombies, um, and you find, you find a really big hall of of uh, of shelf, stable food.

Speaker 1 6:52

Some would even say it's an unlimited supply of it. Um, what, what would you choose to be your unlimited uh food supply?

Speaker 3 7:02

I'm thinking it'd be Kraft mac and cheese, yeah okay, I think that'll last. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And yeah, it's dry, it's not going to. I don't think it's going to waste out for quite a while and yeah, it's tasty.

Speaker 1 7:21

It's like childhood for me, but you've got to have ketchup.

Speaker 2 7:23

I need to find the unlimited shelf-stable supply of ketchup somewhere.

Speaker 3 7:24

I disagree it's tasty.

Speaker 2 7:25

It's like childhood for me. But you've got to have ketchup. I need to find the unlimited shelf-stable supply of ketchup somewhere.

Speaker 1 7:29

I disagree with that, and you know I've spent a long time being absolutely dirt poor and I know that Kraft macaroni and cheese still taste good if you make it with water.

Speaker 2 7:42

Oh it does. I have an important question before we go to your official last rapid fire question. So you've lived in canada, you've lived in the us, you've lived in ireland. You live where you live now. Um, is it's called craft dinner? Is mac and cheese called in the uk as well?

Speaker 3 7:59

uh, so you can't actually get it here. Oh no, yeah, yeah. So I'm like you actually get it here? Oh no, yeah, so you can get it in, like North American stores. There's a few of them going around, but yeah, it's not generally available. So, yeah, it's something from my childhood that's good to know. It would bring back a lot of memories, yeah, so yeah, it was like um seven to thirteen I lived in toronto. Um so, yeah, yeah, craft dinner would have been quite a staple at the time.

Speaker 2 8:32

Yeah, it was quite upsetting for me to move to the united states and learn that it's not called craft dinner it's misleading.

Speaker 1 8:38

It's not a whole dinner, it's a. It is a course of a meal I disagree.

Speaker 2 8:43

I would eat that just as a meal for myself as a kid.

Speaker 1 8:46

And also, kraft makes so many things. I know, I worked in a Kraft factory.

Speaker 2 8:50

Well, that's how they call it.

Speaker 1 8:52

in Canada they make Philadelphia cream cheese. Is that Kraft breakfast?

Speaker 2 8:58

Well, I think this last question for you so we always like to do like a custom rapid fire question, depending on the person and I think this last one actually has me really wondering about your choice around unlimited shelf stable food if it's consistent, because I wanted to know if you had to pick one country Ireland, canada or the US to be in the zombie apocalypse when it starts, where would you go? Where would you choose to be?

Speaker 3 9:22

Well, the novel was California, just because I love California. But, yeah, like, yeah, the last place that I lived was Vancouver, bc, gorgeous place, love it. And yeah, I think there's a lot of places that you can escape to in Vancouver Go up the mountains into the woods.

Speaker 2 9:44

So, yeah, I think it'll be vancouver for me okay, so you're consistent, you could get your craft dinner in the location oh, yeah, yeah, that'd be a fun word yeah, I used to know somebody who used to climb one of the mountains in vancouver like every single day and they did like a.

Speaker 1 10:01

They did like a vlog of like climbing that mountain and I'm like my first did like a vlog of like climbing that mountain and I'm like my first thought is zombies aren't getting up that mountain. It's not a hard one to climb, but like they're, they're just not going to get up that mountain. Yeah, there's, there's nothing that's going to drive them to climb all that way, especially when they would probably tumble down so many times that'd be fun to watch.

Speaker 2 10:21

There's not enough zombies falling down mountains.

Speaker 1 10:24

Yeah that could be a whole movie yeah, zombie avalanche has that happened? Oh my god, that's an amazing idea that is actually a very good idea.

Speaker 3 10:34

You need to copyright that right now it's copyright, copyright.

Speaker 1 10:38

That's how it works. You call copyright and then you own it to write, and then you own it.

Speaker 3 10:51

Um, let's talk about the end um the book that you wrote, specifically the ending of the end yeah, although it does say the end at the end, which was very satisfying.

Speaker 2 10:58

Yeah, can you tell us a little bit about it for those who haven't had a chance to read it yet?

Writing The End: Creative Process

Speaker 3 11:03

Yeah, sure, yeah, so it's. Basically it starts off with the kind of yeah, origins of how the zombie virus kind of gets made and that feeds into straight into the ground zero of the apocalypse happening in Frontier. So you've got William Hawkins. He's the main protagonist, he's a Navy SEAL, gets called into action in San Diego and, yeah, just realizes that everything has gone to hell, there's no way of fighting this. Gets back to base. Base is overwhelmed. So his first thought go save his family. He needs to get back to them.

Speaker 3 11:55

And so then it kind of takes off from there and it's searching for a sense of community, trying to survive amongst a whole host of threats from the dead and mainly from the living as well. It kind of looks at how people change when they're faced with these odds and then kind of their moral compass goes out the window or they're really stays with them and they get that sense of community and survival and bonding together, that kind of dichotomy looking at it. And yeah, it's really fast paced, it's filled with action. And I know the title is kind of interesting because, yeah, it was originally envisioned as a kind of three part novella piece when it started off. I mean, the end was always the start of it, um, effectively, because it was supposed to be the end of the world, um, and uh yeah. Then, just throughout the years, I just decided to to combine it into the one and actually build out an actual novel on it, and that's how it landed. Just kept the title. That's a good one yeah, I um the.

Speaker 1 13:07

The pacing was like the first thing that I noticed, because it it really moves along like I, I don't, I don't, I don't think you're more than a few chapters in before it's like almost a year out in the timeline yeah, yeah, it's.

Speaker 3 13:21

Yeah, I I tried to keep that pacing and just kind of make it feel cinematic in a way, because, yeah, my funny kind of clawback is I'd always loved movies and stuff like that and I like, when I moved to Vancouver I was probably like 38, 37, 38. And, yeah, background is in IT and that's yeah, my career is based on. But I got into Vancouver and they have the Vancouver Film School which, like, yeah, lots of people have gone to.

Speaker 1 14:08

I think Kevin Smith went to the Vancouver Film School.

Speaker 3 14:11

Yeah, Kevin Smith dropped out of there.

Speaker 1 14:12

To make his move, yeah exactly.

Speaker 3 14:17

And then Neil Blomkamp, district 9. So he went there with his wife and made District 9 like quite shortly after graduating there, and so I just kind of applied just on a whim and got accepted there. And then I was just about to start on the pandemic and yeah, so I was like I just, yeah, I dropped out, like I just didn't go ahead with it because I wouldn't get that hands-on experience that you'd get actually physically being in and learning how to direct a movie and stuff like that. But that was always my ambition was to write and direct movies. So that was my writing style and in fact, like, uh, it's kind of cinematic view of things and I want to keep things like visual and fast-paced and keep it training yeah, that's something I was actually thinking about.

Speaker 1 15:15

what I was when I was reading it is that, um, there's so much there that, like, if you, if you wanted to turn it into a series or a movie, like, it's all right there, we don't have to wait for six more books to be published.

Speaker 3 15:30

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 15:34

It gets to the point, there's a lot of room to expand.

Speaker 2 15:37

If you're writing a script and you want to make each chapter an episode of the Walking Dead, I feel like you've got dozens of seasons worth of material there that you could really tell an epic story visually if if that was what you were going for yeah, it's not the kind of book that you're gonna fall asleep reading like you need to know what's gonna happen next, um, but you have very poetic language, like at one point I was like it's kind of like tolkien, but not because you skipped all of the unnecessary boring detail, but it has the like um, what's the word I'm looking for?

Speaker 3 16:10

it has like the atmosphere of this big, epic story and really yeah, I was trying to kind of, yeah, build that, yeah, that kind of landscape, like, yeah, the kind of world building thing. So like, yeah, I did kind of focus on that and I did have a long time to focus on it as well. But, yeah, no, thanks for the compliments though. Yeah, it's kind of the vision that I do have for it, like I am trying to write like a teleplay for it. So I've got the pilot kind of almost where I want it. So I'm going to try and start pitching that in the near future, and so I've got the pilot kind of almost where I want it, so I'm going to try and start pitching that in the near future, hopefully, yeah.

Speaker 1 16:51

That's really exciting. Yeah, I kind of felt like I was reading the Odyssey a bit. Like I said, it did feel like an epic poem, like it's spanning over this like vast amount of time, like it's it's spanning over this like vast amount of time and just it's. It's, it's a it's a story about. It's a story about time, really, and yeah the things that happen, like all the, all, the characters that come and go and the relationships that are formed yeah, so, yeah, that's yeah.

Speaker 3 17:20

So like, yeah, you kind of see where it would have originally been, like Like you have multiple kind of novellas, because, yeah, there's probably like four kind of distinct stories within it, so that you go back and forth, like so there's the journey of Will Hawkins, but then there's kind of, yeah, there's a couple of side pieces, so I won't go into too many details until people get a chance to read it. I hate when there's too many spoilers in these things. But yeah, there's kind of three other sets of group stories that you kind of uncover and then how they all kind of come together.

Speaker 2 18:02

And it's like when these kind of things together, um, and it's real, because, yeah, like when these kind of things happen, the world gets very small yeah, and one of the things that really struck me was what you said earlier about, um, the raiders, you, you write from the perspective of the raiders as well as people like hawk who are trying to build community again and work together. And you mentioned about this question of like who? Who do you become in the apocalypse? Do you become the person who is raiding or do you become the person who is trying to build something? And I'm curious what it was like to write from both of those perspectives and if you have any like hypotheses now, after doing that about like, what are the forming factors that make somebody go in either direction?

Character Development and Storytelling

Speaker 3 18:42

Yeah, that's the thing. Yeah, I tried to kind of put myself in that mindset and it's like I think, like it kind of would depend on, like, how you grew up and like, yeah, the kind of influences in your life and so. But also I kind of envisioned that you know, like early on in the apocalypse, when all the chaos is happening, there's these flash moments where you're not thinking so you might accidentally kill someone, that might flip a switch in you, but I didn't feel anything during that moment. So maybe this is okay, life to live Not that it is, but, like you know, I was kind of trying to get in that character mindset and what they would be thinking.

Speaker 3 19:34

But then also I was like, you know, when you're writing these things as well, it's like you know, the good guys are only the good guys from the perspective of the, the writer, like the way you write it. So, um, you know, uh, they're just bad because you write them bad. And so, um, like yeah, I think like yeah, when we were on the the uh, the chat the other day, um, you know, there was some talk about negan and his group in the Walking Dead. He's only bad because he's perceived to be the bad guy when you write it. But if you look back at the story, rick's crew struck first, so that kind of spurs him on to be evil. But they did evil things before and they were keeping people under their thumb and stuff like that, but yeah, yeah it's all about perspective sometimes.

Speaker 1 20:27

Yeah, exactly, yeah, rick did some pretty rick, uh, ran over, ran over a cop with a with his own police car because he told him to stop and he wouldn't. Yeah, like moments like that. You could be like, yeah, rick is absolutely a psychopath yeah, yeah, yeah, he's left people to die. He's, you know absolutely ruthless against his enemies? Um, yeah, but we see him as the good guy because he's you know, he's doing everything for a noble cause.

Speaker 1 20:57

But yeah raiders, you know they're trying to protect their own people, they're trying to feed themselves, they're trying to stay safe. Maybe their cause is just as noble and they, you know, have to resort to um less less than kind means of dealing with people that they don't trust or like yeah, for sure.

Speaker 3 21:15

Now there are some shitty um, there's some very shitty people in the end of all. So, yeah, we'll put a caveat on that because, yeah, yeah, I don't want to be sympathizing with them too much. Yeah, there's definitely some bad guys in it.

Speaker 2 21:31

It is a point to remember, though. Like in life, stories like this and what you're saying are important to think about because, at the end of the day, like everybody in the end wants to survive, we have different survival strategies, um, some more moral and compassionate than others, but I do, like you know my enduring desire for a better world wants to hope that there's a world where, like, if we can meet each other at that basic place of like, we all want to have food, shelter and love. I mean, some people don't care about love, that's true. There's the truly bad people, yeah, but for most of us, like is can we just get along? That's always what I come back to. Like, can we just remember that we all want the same things and just get along? That's how I feel whenever I read books, too. Just like, can we, could you? Why?

Speaker 3 22:18

why do you have to be this way? You've got, you've got to have hope. Um, like that's the thing you can't. Um, I mean I do like dark endings um at, but yeah, I'm a Scorpio so like yeah, naturally kind of do, but yeah, like you got to end with hope a lot of the time. Like you know, the basic human need.

Speaker 2 22:38

You do end on a note of hope. Is that okay for me to say?

Speaker 3 22:41

That's okay to say. Yeah, no spoilers.

Speaker 2 22:45

Yeah, and yet it is a very bleak like it's a very bleak story through most of it.

Speaker 3 22:51

Yeah, yeah, yeah. What made you make?

Speaker 2 22:52

the choice to end it at a point of hope.

Speaker 3 23:05

I thought that the way I was writing it that it was veering towards a kind of bleak ending, so I thought that ending it on a note of hope would kind of surprise the reader a bit, which hopefully does. But yeah, I think it was just a natural kind of progression, just because the way the story was going I was like, yeah, this is kind of going down a dark path. But yeah, I kind of wanted down a dark path, um, but like, yeah, I kind of wanted to, yeah, just put something nice in at the end and that it would, yeah, be different I appreciated that as the person who would like to still be a little.

Speaker 1 23:38

Yeah, I mean even some of the darkest stories that exist in the genre usually. Usually there's that, that spark of hope, and that's kind of the point. Even the road, the road ends with hope.

Speaker 3 23:51

Yeah, I did actually take some inspiration from the road as well, the journey aspect of things, what you would do for your child or children Becoming a father myself. You just have that instinct and stuff. It was an inspiration for me.

Speaker 2 24:18

It's a powerful story as well. Your book inspired a conversation we had. We always talk about who we're going to talk to and what we've read over breakfast. If it's going to be on a Saturday, go to our favorite diner. Oh man, that just went away. That's so annoying.

Speaker 3 24:33

Brain hold on I got thinking about the food at the diner and obama.

Speaker 2 24:40

He didn't make an appearance as well, unfortunately no, um, and what it made us start to talk about and think about is just like that a lot of the stories you grew up with as kids are. There's a happy ending, right Like. There are things happen that are hard, but then there's a happy ending and your book is a really powerful reminder of like. It's actually just an ongoing story and there is no end to struggle, but there are moments of hope along the way and that's sort of what we have to live for. It's not as simple as like.

Speaker 3 25:05

It's just always going to be a happy ending because even if everything goes perfectly next, not giving anything away, there are still going to be other struggles after that yeah, exactly so, like yeah, and I, I think like yeah, when stories just end as well like um, you know, like where it's, yeah, it's very final, I kind of don't like that. Like yeah, I like a story that will like kind of invoke your imagination as well. I wonder what happened next in this. There might not necessarily be a sequel to anything that you're reading, but it stimulates your imagination and you can figure out your own story that way. It's kind of nice.

Speaker 2 25:47

It's also more human. I think I was actually like negatively affected by all the fairy tales I read. That made me think that there was like this point where I'd get married and then everything would be easy after that. That was the narrative as a kid and that's not real life.

Speaker 3 26:00

So yeah, well, yeah, if you read the original uh, fairy tales they're much worse yeah, they're not the ones I was given as a kid.

Speaker 3 26:08

For sure, tell us more about the type of zombies in your book yes, um, they are kind of, yes, they're, they're a bit more dangerous when they initially turn um and but yeah, they're, they're all the slow moving, slow-moving variety. They tend to move in hordes to overwhelm our heroes. They're pretty brutal. They go straight for the flesh. They're pretty mindless. There's no rhyme or reason to them. They just want to kill, kill, kill, which I think is the best kind of zombie that you want to read about. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, but yeah, it's obviously kind of virus spreads pretty rapidly. So, yeah, there's a lot of the zombies. So, yeah, oftentimes, yeah, when they come up against them, they'll be overwhelmed by the odds. Um, but yeah, obviously, our main protagonist, um, kind of escapes plenty of jams.

Speaker 2 27:15

so that's why he gets to be throughout the story exactly, yeah, yeah, I guess he wouldn't be too far if he didn't no, he's, uh.

Speaker 1 27:24

Yeah, there's some gaps in there, though, where where we don't focus on him, which is um, which is good, so yeah I do appreciate that because, like your, your story does a really great job of like finding these, these characters throughout the, throughout the the journey through the wasteland, who become like, more or less found family, um in the group, and then they become, then they start to hold a bigger, a bigger role, um, as as time progresses, like, um, like there's a, a character, maya, who shows up pretty early in the story and um, you know, I I figured that she'd die right away because I didn't. I didn't know what kind of story this is going to be.

Speaker 2 28:07

Are we spoiling by saying whether or not maya lives or dies? Well, I was talking with you. I don't think so.

Speaker 1 28:12

Okay, she's actually my favorite character um that I wrote so, yeah, yeah, not giving that, not giving anything away yeah, I mean maya seems like really well fleshed out and like um, also like really breaks a lot of the typical gender stereotypes. Like she's a mechanic, she's out there scouting. Seems pretty tough. Was there an inspiration for Maya or did she just show up in your brain one day?

Speaker 3 28:40

Kind of just yeah, just showed up in the brain really. Yeah, kind of originally I was going to kill her off um quite early enough Um, but I, yeah, no, I I really liked her Um and um. Yeah, just like her character kind of grew organically, like in the kind of situation that I was. I was putting her in Um cause she brings a lot of emotion into the emotion into a number of situations, because she really feels the impact of the loss that they experience and she's an emotional anchor in a few of those and she just really grew organically and developed into this really really strong character. She was a bit lost at the start, trying to find her place, but yeah, she's become really strong, quite badass yeah, and I really love her.

Speaker 2 29:42

We appreciate that. I especially appreciate that. I've probably shared this on the podcast before, but it's worth saying again that my grandfather owned a mechanic shop and all of my uncles were also mechanics, and I was never allowed to go in there and learn things. They treated me like a princess and did everything for me. So I love characters that are like Maya, that actually know how to do stuff. I could have been that person, maybe, and it's just sort of like a moment of fantasy. It's like, well, look, it's possible. It's just nice to see that. It's nice to see women in roles that aren't traditional, like inside and outside of apocalyptic scenario. It's just a reminder that those limitations aren't real.

Speaker 3 30:18

Yeah, for sure. Yeah, because I tried to be as diverse as I could be, like consciously kind of diverse, but you know, I hope we succeeded in that. But yeah, Maya was definitely kind of one of the ones that I loved writing about.

Speaker 2 30:35

What's it like to choose if a character lives or dies?

Building Communities After Apocalypse

Speaker 3 30:39

It's tough sometimes, and other times it's just like it happens really organically, because you're just kind of playing out the situation, like you get to a point where someone has to go Like it's not realistic that they're going to make it out of this situation all intact. And yeah, it's tough at times though. Yeah, so it's tough at times, though there's definitely there was one character in the book that was definitely tough to that I wrote him out, but it was necessary, and that's kind of how I justified it Like it had to progress the story and kind of, yeah, anchor that bit in.

Speaker 2 31:27

Do you emotionally mourn like? Do writers emotionally mourn characters they kill? I've never asked this, but I'm so curious. Like you come in and you'd be like, go to your wife and be like I just killed this person.

Speaker 3 31:38

No, yeah, it wasn't like that, but I did like, when the moment happened at this particular character, I did.

Speaker 3 31:47

Yeah, I had to pause writing for a while, yeah, so I didn't write for the rest of the day and, yeah, just kind of had to take a moment for myself Because, like, yeah, I don't even know where to go from here, which was, which was interesting, because, yeah, you do get attached to the um, especially like, yeah, if you're writing about them, um, like you know, you get attached to characters as you read them, but, yeah, when you're actually writing about them, to kind of feel a part of you, um, so, yeah, you do get that attachment itself yeah, one, one more thing that, um, you know, I think a lot of these locations like different sanctuaries that you also kind of feel a bit like they're alive, like they're kind of like characters with their own, like their own challenges and their own benefits, and you know your characters have to choose to like leave some of them and like try to save other ones of them and like try to save other ones.

Speaker 3 32:52

Um, wait, yeah, no, I I think that like there was definitely um, the like the first kind of place, like the haven. I think um was definitely the first kind of place. That, yeah, that I like I tried to create as its own character. And so then like, yeah, when kind of something happens there, um, that not only only the characters are really feeling it, but you as the reader are feeling like, oh shit, this is probably the end of what's happening here. And so, yeah, definitely with Haven, I really focused on making that a character in and of itself, like focus on um, yeah, making that a character and love itself. And yeah, the.

Speaker 3 33:34

The others were kind of, yeah, just more like, yeah, bringing the sense community, but yeah, I definitely felt like, yeah, haven was its own character for sure yeah, when, when, uh, when you, when your characters have to decide to, like, leave certain places, does it kind of also feel like a bit of a a death of a character when they leave those places too yeah, for sure, yeah, and it's like, but it's also, um, you know, you're trying to give the sense like, um, like in the apocalypse, like you can't really call anyone anywhere home, um, so like, and you've also like you've got to keep moving on as well, like you know, to survive, like I feel like, yeah, in a lot of these apocalypse kind of situations, like if you stay anywhere too long, you get too comfortable, and that's when bad things are going to happen, so you kind of got to keep on your toes.

Speaker 3 34:24

But it's definitely like, yeah, like when people feel like, start to feel that sense of home and then they have to leave it, yeah, it can be kind of heartbreaking for them, but then, yeah, they continue to find hope in a new place.

Speaker 2 34:38

It's interesting because humans are, by nature, really meant to be migratory species and we've become really sedentary literally sedentary in my day job at least. Um, yeah, but also like we, we cling to like places and we stay there for a long time, and that's not actually, um, how we lived ancestrally for a long time and also in an apocalypse, like you said. It's not a thing that is very feasible to assume. You can be somewhere for a long time, but why do you think it is that people still feel that urge to find a place and just believe that this is going to be it.

Speaker 3 35:12

Yeah, it's funny because where I'm from, I'm originally from Ireland, so we had the English invade us. We were at war with them for 300 years, you know, we were like at war with them for like 300 years and so so, like I know, like certainly in Ireland, um like so we, we weren't allowed to like own property, like, if you're an Irish Catholic, um, you couldn't own property. And so I think definitely, like Irish people have this ingrained thing that like like we have to own our own house and like you know, like own our own land and stuff like that. So it's this um sense of kind of um defiance because like, yeah, something got taken from us before. So, like you know, we won't let that happen again. And we were, you know, we were at war for, however, hundreds years, and and then that kind of just gets passed down. It's not spoken about sometimes, but it's just kind of. It's like instincts kind of gets passed down.

Speaker 3 36:17

But similarly, though, for Irish people, because we had the famine as well. So we are spread all over the world as a result of that, and then there's a large portion of Irish people that love to travel the world and explore new cultures. So that's something I think you definitely get a mix of people. So like, when I go to America, there's people that I've met that have never left their own state, but then you meet people who have been all over the world met that have you know they've never left their own stage. Yeah, and then yeah, but then you know you meet people who have been all over the world. You know, I think there's definitely a mix of people.

Speaker 2 36:57

Definitely. I think I have an Irish question, if that's okay. Sure, you mentioned the Irish famine. My understanding was it was because food was withheld. Is that true? No, no, no.

Speaker 3 37:10

Well, sorry, to a certain degree. So effectively, it's kind of like zombie apocalypse actually. So Irish people were very poor. Well, irish Catholics were very poor because, yeah, we didn't own our own land. Our economy was heavily reliant on farming, but we had to give most of what we had to English landlords, so we had to pay them, give them food and stuff, and then what happened is it was called potato blight. It's basically a virus in the potatoes, so it was killing all the crops and potato is like kind of the main staple for poor Irish people. So when this blight happened, their main source of food was gone, so they didn't really eat meat because the meat would all go to rich people and English landlords and stuff. So with that main food source going, people were starving. So there was some English landlords that would do soup kitchens and stuff like that, but for the most part part they didn't really care and so they let the people starve and so that's why you saw this mass exodus.

Speaker 3 38:34

Um, so I think we were. We had a population of like six million, I think, um, pre-famine, and then that went down to like two million. Um, wow, so, uh, yeah, there's something like 3 million or something like that, um, like yeah, fled the country, like mainly to America, and on both um like to Boston and New York, where the kind of main uh destination, Um, and then the one like yeah, plenty, stage they died off and um, and then, yeah, that potato disease kind of went away eventually, um, and then, yeah, we're at I think we're at a population of like five and a half million now, something like that. Oh, wow, so we're back to pre-famine level.

Speaker 1 39:18

It sounds like such a small number.

Speaker 3 39:20

Five and a half million, yeah, yeah, well, that's yeah, because we were, yeah, we've been chatting before. Yeah're like asking about, um, how I meet so many of um kind of irish celebrities and stuff like that. And it's just because, yeah, ireland is bloody tiny and so, yeah, like I mean, I can go halfway around the world and I'll meet someone like, uh, either they're, they're from ireland or, you know, they've got family there, and stuff like they'll spit out a name like, oh, do you know? Like I really get annoyed by it because I'm like like you know, we're this tiny country, we know everyone. And then they'll say the name I do know them that's pretty wild.

Irish History and Personal Connections

Speaker 2 40:02

I think this. Thank you for taking us on that journey and educating me a little bit, because I think I remember learning about the potato famine in school, but then I'd heard recently there was something around like unequal distribution of resources too, so it's a little bit yeah yeah, it was, it was about.

Speaker 3 40:19

So basically, yeah, that's basically. Yeah, the crops were all destroyed and stuff like that. And yet the, the english landlords, were basically like, well, like the, the Irish people are kind of like, so human kind of thing, so they're um, so yeah, they didn't care if we were dying off um, some like some days, um and and helped out. But for the vast majority, like yeah, don't care it's a disturbing trend that we see happening.

Speaker 2 40:43

Yeah, it does feel like going that direction again. Yeah, and I think the story of the Irish people, irish Catholic people, as you're saying is an example of an apocalypse like losing what like three quarters or two thirds of your entire population is an apocalypse, and I do wonder how that seeped into your storytelling.

Speaker 3 41:07

Yeah, I mean, I think everything irish people do like that there's um, yeah, there's a sense of history and and everything that we do, so um, yeah, whether consciously or or subconsciously, like I'm sure there was influence there. Um, but, um, yes, like yeah, if you ever watch like a promo video of anything to do with irish sports or or ireland in general, like it's all about, like, yeah, history and pride and nation, stuff like that, um, so definitely, uh, it definitely forms part of our identity. And then, um, and stuff like yeah, because I go back there often. We watch Irish sport. Irish rugby team is playing Wales today. We're favourites for another championship. There's a lot of rivalry among the British Isles and amongst the team, but they aren't kind of tough for the last two years.

Speaker 2 42:13

I'm ancestrally on the other side of this Gerard.

Speaker 3 42:16

Well, it's okay, so is my wife.

Speaker 1 42:21

And I don't know where I'm from.

Speaker 2 42:23

I mean, I know very little and who knows if it's even true. You kind of wonder that my great uncle did a lot of, uh, lineage work, but just him. And then I've heard things. I've heard that we're Welsh, but I don't know, I don't actually know our. Canada. My family's been in Canada for six generations now, so it's been a long time, but I do have to ask you a zombie related celebrity question is it true that your parents are really neighbors with cillian murphy, the star of the 28 days later series? Parents?

Speaker 2 42:53

true is it?

Speaker 3 42:54

true, okay, yeah, and uh, killian, killian, look at me.

Speaker 2 42:59

Yeah, there you go, yeah the fact that I even had a sense of a celebrity's name is impressive.

Speaker 1 43:04

I gotta say yeah I think yeah, yeah recently learned that it was killian and then then I forgot.

Speaker 2 43:09

But for like solidly 20 years I've been saying it wrong you heard it here first, if you haven't heard it before, fellow americans, it's killian, yeah, um, have you? Yeah, have you ever tried to get the end into his hands?

Speaker 3 43:23

I have not, um, because, yeah, it's rare that I would see him. Um, I used to see him more often, like when I, when I lived over there. Obviously, um, um, but uh, yeah, no, I I haven't um, I probably could try. But yeah, um, yeah, it's um, yeah, it's an interesting one. Yeah, would he, would he take it? But like, yeah, I mean, you know, like I've said hi to him plenty of times um, his, uh, my dad's dogs and his dogs tend to get tangled up quite a bit. So a really nice guy, very nice that's very cute.

Speaker 1 44:03

That's your six degrees of separation. Is that your, your, uh, your dad's dogs and his dogs are friends.

Speaker 2 44:10

I think you'd be first degree because you know him directly. All I know is that when you told me that I have a friend that is obsessed with Killian Murphy, who I'm also curious if she knows how to say his name correctly, how obsessed are you? Can you say this person's name? Because we've only ever talked about it by text. So now I'm going to have to test her.

Speaker 3 44:33

But I did tell her that I have an access point.

Speaker 2 44:34

Um, I'm not saying yeah, but technically she should not meet her because I think he's her hall pass.

Speaker 3 44:37

So I don't actually want to meet sorry, friend, that I won't say your name um, like, yeah, it'd be really easy to go up and knock on his door anyway, yeah, that's dangerous.

Speaker 1 44:53

It's not an enclosure or anything. So when you were writing this, you were juggling a lot of things, like a lot of us writers, you know. Yeah, were you one of the 4am crowd, or how did you juggle that?

Speaker 3 45:14

Well, so, yeah, yeah it was. It took me from from concept to actually finishing probably like seven or eight years, um in total. Um, so it was a lot of like I'd be on like a lunch break work and stuff like that, or like, yeah, I got narrow here or there. Um, it wasn't like late night stuff. Um, that's why it kind of took me so long, um, cause I ha, I had the outline done fairly early. Um, I thought, um, yeah, kind of fun fact is that.

Speaker 3 45:44

Um, so I used to have quite a bit of trouble getting to sleep. About 10 years ago or so, I don't know what it was, so some people count sheep I basically played the kind of opening sequence of the novel out in my head as I was going to sleep and that's what put me to sleep. As dark as that is Same, yeah, yeah. So, yeah, it was just, it was literally that I just played it out as a scene and then I just started putting that to paper and then, yeah, it just took a long time. So when you get an hour here and there, because, yeah, like full-time job, and then, yeah, I had my daughter two years ago and then, yeah, we moved from Canada to England and yeah, career is pretty hectic at times.

Speaker 2 46:44

Just the move alone would block time out to really do anything. I mean I've moved from Canada, that's a. I mean I've moved from canada, the us, but like you've moved across an ocean, that's a whole other logistical nightmare I can't even imagine. Yeah, I feel like twice in the last five years uh, well, last what was it?

Speaker 3 47:03

2019 I moved over to van and then 2022 came back. Yeah, so early 2019 and then late 22 moved back over.

Speaker 1 47:17

So are you fully a plotter, or is there a little bit of pantsing when you're planning out your when you're writing your novel.

Speaker 3 47:29

Yeah, I try and map out the, I map out the overall arch, so I know where it's starting and where I want to get to. But then everything in between was quite organic. So I just kind of went to where the story was going. So there was definitely like, yeah, there's plenty in there that I didn't really kind of originally plot out, but the ultimate, the kind of last battle sequence in the novel, that was always kind of the planned end and that was always kind of the planned end. But originally that community was going to be destroyed and like, yeah, I knew, yeah, it was going to be kind of dark and offending. But then, yeah, the way the whole story went and stuff like that, like, and now there's kind of fears here and there, yeah, it ended up. Yeah, I wanted to kind of fears here and there. Um, yeah, it ended up. I, yeah, I wanted to kind of end on a bit of hope.

Speaker 2 48:31

So again, I appreciate that I nixed the destruction, so there is a moment um as much as there's bleakness in this book until the end. There are also really cool moments of community building and like rebuilding society. Like, uh, fixing a steam train. Is this, oh yeah, spoiler territory? No, no, no, go ahead okay, I'm just curious if that was like how did, how did that inspiration come to you? Was that something you knew was going to be in there?

Speaker 3 48:57

um, to a degree, um, because I, um, yeah, so I, uh. So this is kind of how they got to Lakeside basically. So I knew that Lakeside was going to be way north of California and I thought, yeah, the vast distance in America when you want to travel anywhere, it's pretty big between the states, so a whole group of people aren't going to be able to go on foot. Gasoline is going to probably be gone by the time that they're going up there. So I always envisioned a train to get up, but what that would look like. And then in 2021, I was in Sacramento for like a rock festival and yeah, in kind of old Sacramento they have like an old train, like a tourist train that goes in and that kind of like. Yeah, that just kind of sparked that in me. So I went back and rewrote that part, yeah. So then I had the vision for the steam train and that's how that came about.

Speaker 1 50:16

I really love that idea. Once I got to that I was just like, okay, this is kind of heavy metal.

Speaker 3 50:26

It was a heavy metal festival that I was at.

Speaker 2 50:28

I really like those parts of your story because you don't always get to them if it's a shorter metal heavy metal festival that I was at. I really like those parts of your story because you don't always get to them if it's a shorter like, if it's a shorter span of time and and being able to see how a civilization can be rebuilt is also inspiring and hope-inducing, like today's societies don't. Nobody's gonna be like you know, we need a steam train that'll fix all of our problems everything but it just shows like there's, uh, the potential for humans to figure things out in the long, in the long picture of things.

Speaker 2 50:54

I think that we can have hope when we think about it in that bigger picture, and it's easier for things to feel bleak if you're just focused on like how shitty things are now, literally, yeah, here in the us.

Speaker 3 51:05

So it's just nice to see that bigger picture yeah and like, um, that whole idea, like in the novel, it so it's just nice to see that bigger picture, yeah, and like that whole idea, like in the novel, it's kind of that whole sequence is kind of sparked by like, yeah, different people having these kind of light bulb moments. Like you know, one character thinks that like, remembers being up at Lakeside and that being a potential for a new community, and then someone else sparks on the the train thing to mass transport everyone up there. So it's um, yeah, it's kind of everyone like um, focus on that goal. Like everyone wants to like one set sense community.

Speaker 2 51:42

everyone wants that bit of hope, um, and they're all kind of banding together to make sure that that happens yeah, and that's another example of why it's interesting that you have so many different characters weaving throughout, because it's not just about one person. Although there is an arc that we're following, it's a reminder that we need everybody. I'm feeling very hopeful today.

Speaker 1 51:59

I don't know if this conversation will stop it.

Speaker 2 52:02

All right, be depressed again later.

Speaker 1 52:04

All right. What originally compelled you to write a zombie apocalypse story? Specifically, have you always been a fan of the apocalypse?

Speaker 3 52:16

uh, yeah, so like again, yeah, we kind of touched on it earlier like some massive movie buff um and yeah, um. So like, yeah, george romero films are just like, I absolutely adore them. And then, like, yeah, like the Walking Dead kind of came out as a comic, so like, yeah, I was reading them before the show came on. I've got like a half sleeve, got a bunch of like Walking Dead comic book images on my leg. That's cool. So, yeah, I've always been kind of, yeah, fan of the zombie genre and so, um, yeah, when I just started writing, as I said, yeah, it was like just kind of like a visual dream that I was, um, I like to put myself to sleep.

Speaker 1 53:05

And then, yeah, I just kind of developed a story off the back of that and it just kind of naturally progressed and I was like, yeah, there's something in this, so I'm gonna keep going with it yeah, that really adds up because, um, like the one of the things that I was thinking while reading it, it's like it's like this this book felt like it felt like the entirety of, of, like a walking dead series, almost like like the, the vast storytelling that happens from the very beginning to the very end, and I could see all those elements there, like the found family, the character building, all of the various challenges that you have to face in this new world, and then rebuilding society.

Speaker 3 53:51

Those were all very similar to the, the walking dead, so I could see all of those, those influences yeah, yeah, yeah, it was definitely in that, um, there's, uh, romero's landed the dead, um, so that um, that kind of inspired lakeside a bit, um, because it's like yeah, kind of like, yeah, they kind of build their own city kind of thing, um like walled city to keep everything out, so that like yeah, so it did take a bit of inspiration from that as well I want to know did you just like, as you were having insomnia, go beyond just your initial intro in your brain all the way through over time, the whole story like you just imagine it?

Speaker 3 54:30

uh, a few scenes so, um, yeah, so, like the, the prologue, and then the first two chapters and then the kind of the final battle at Lakeside. So those were the kind of three main things that I can generally kind of visualise in my mind. Yes, that was over the course of many years, just having those in my head.

Speaker 2 54:59

I think this is a kind of a brilliant writing hack for people with insomnia. Like I also have insomnia. I don't know if I'm going to write a zombie book, but I might just start being like I'm going to make a story while I'm lying here in my head because you're using that dream space that you're almost in, but not quite. Yeah, I'm a genius.

Speaker 3 55:16

I can only play phone games while I'm reading a zombie act, which is super bad for it as well, because it's like your brain is too stimulated.

Speaker 2 55:24

Yeah, I'm not supposed to look at the phone. It's so hard at night.

Speaker 3 55:27

Yeah.

Speaker 2 55:28

Since storytelling has been such a big part of your life, do you see yourself sticking with zombie stories in your writing, or are there other genres you want to explore?

Speaker 3 55:37

So there's a couple of other genres, but I do have continuation of the end a bit. I do have a couple of short stories that I want to explore. So one about Vance. So, yeah, what happens to explore. So one about Vance so like, yeah, kind of what happened to him and like, yeah, kind of what was motivating him as well.

Speaker 2 56:02

I would like to know that.

Speaker 3 56:05

Yeah, so like yeah, like it'd be kind of yeah, it'd be quite a short story, I think, like maybe 100 pages or so, 8200 pages, but like, yeah, I kind of do want to develop that at some stage. Yeah, the teleplay is taking up most of my time at the moment, but yeah, I do have a dark story. Like well, I've got a dark story to tell which is kind of inspired by. I used to work with a murderer, whoa, a bit of a bombshell there.

Speaker 2 56:40

Wait, you literally used to work with a murderer and then found out they were a murderer.

Speaker 1 56:45

Or were you helping the murders? I was not helping the murders.

Speaker 3 56:50

No, yes, this young guy. He's like 20, something like that. I worked in a wine shop and he briefly worked there.

Speaker 2 57:00

Wow.

Speaker 3 57:02

And, yeah, he got fired, he was barred and stuff. And then, yeah, as he was walking out the door, he said I can't remember what he said. It was something very weird. And I just turned to everyone and said I bet you 50 bucks like this guy's going to come back and murder us all. And he didn't. But yeah, it was about six, seven months after that. Yeah, he did end up. Yeah, he killed one person and tried to kill two others. Wow, um, and then killed himself.

Speaker 3 57:37

And so, yeah, kind of dark, um, but I like, yeah, so I kind of have a story in my mind of, like um, because, like, there was um, you know, there was family members and stuff like that. That like, oh, like you know, never thought you could do this, and stuff like that. Like it's so not him, and stuff. But like, I always remember that moment where I said like, yeah, this guy's gonna come back and kill us all. Like, so it's the different perceptions that people have of someone. Um, so I kind of have this idea for a story where, um, you're looking through the eyes of different characters, uh, like how they see this person and the different perspectives, and then, yeah, something very dark happens. That's an idea for a story that I have.

Speaker 2 58:22

That sounds fascinating. I would read it, but also like how creepy.

Speaker 3 58:25

Oh yeah.

Speaker 2 58:27

To realize.

Speaker 1 58:29

You know, that's one thing that I love about the genre. If you set up the scene like in like in your case, you have a great world and there's just like unlimited spinoff possibility where you can tell pretty much any story. So you could, you could tell a story about a guy who worked at a wine store and then you know, zombie, apocalypse happens and he's like I love murder yeah or no zombie apocalypse.

Speaker 2 58:51

That's just disturbing by itself. I um yeah, why does my brain keep doing this? I think you're throwing me for interesting loops, and so it just short circuits, because I'm like I have an idea. There it is, it's gone. Oh, that's what it was. I need to know which country this was in this is in ireland.

Speaker 3 59:06

Yeah, it was in dublin okay, see, that was important.

Speaker 2 59:09

I was immediately being like it's got to be the us. Got, got to be the US for this.

Speaker 3 59:13

I know yeah, yeah, no, yeah, so yeah, it was with a knife. So yeah, if it was in the US it would have been a fun show, I'm sure.

Speaker 1 59:20

Yeah, it would have happened the same day too.

Speaker 3 59:22

Yeah, yeah, no, thought process about it.

Speaker 2 59:34

In some way it's so much darker. Yes, yeah, I mean, it's still the same outcome for everybody involved, but the person who's making a choice.

Speaker 3 59:38

It feels like an even more intense choice. Yeah, no, like that's the thing I think with the gunshot, like yeah, like you know it's an instance, but yeah, I think there's something so yeah, kind of really raw and dark and like yeah, really plotted out. Um, but yeah, like yeah with and like with an instrument, or or like yeah with your hands, like yeah, like a fire axe.

Speaker 2 59:59

I mean, that's also the. That's also the hard part about the zombie apocalypse is how much of it is hand to hand yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 1:00:05

Well, that's that fire axe is intended for zombies only yeah, yeah, you were full of stories.

Speaker 2 1:00:12

I never expected Killian Murphy Co-workers with a murderer, killer co-worker Killian. Murphy Killer co-worker is a great title.

Speaker 3 1:00:20

Yeah, yeah, mutually exclusive yeah.

Speaker 1 1:00:23

I mean the, the stab somebody. It requires a commitment to the act, like like shooting somebody, it's a switch, you know. Yeah, but it's a switch. You know it either happens or it doesn't. But a knife like, there's a lot, of, a lot of area that your hand has to travel.

Speaker 2 1:00:38

I feel like I'm going to need to put in a short disclaimer for like five minutes of this podcast. We'll record it after.

Speaker 1 1:00:43

We talk about stamina. Yeah, yeah, just one part deserves a disclaimer.

Speaker 2 1:00:48

So asking for a friend what is a teleplay?

Speaker 3 1:00:52

So that, well, it's a screenplay, but for television, for a series.

Speaker 1 1:00:58

I didn't know that there was a difference.

Speaker 3 1:01:01

I always referred to it as screenplay. I think, yeah, I think nowadays I think yeah, like it is just screenplay. But yeah, so like yeah, if you go back and watch like older kind of TV series, it'll say teleplay by.

Speaker 2 1:01:14

So that's screenplay, it's teleplay. See, I've been mispronouncing everything today.

Speaker 3 1:01:23

Well, I think it's English, I think it's teleplay.

Speaker 2 1:01:26

Well, I'm closer to English than I am American, so I'm going to go with teleplay.

Speaker 1 1:01:33

I'll stand for the um American pronunciation of it. Good for you, we'll all cover. We'll all cover it. Um, what's, what's the biggest challenge? Taking your already written book and then writing a teleplay from that yeah.

Speaker 3 1:01:48

so like yeah, so I don't know like if you've've ever actually looked at a screenplay before, but they're so different in terms of writing style and what you put in. So, yeah, you have to be super descriptive about a scene and stuff, but it's dialogue heavy, it has to be. It's dialogue heavy, it has to be. And like, yeah, my book isn't that dialogue heavy, like there's plenty of dialogue in it, but like, yeah, when you're converting it onto the screen, yeah, obviously you've got to fill it with talk and be descriptive. And so that's the biggest challenge. Like I'm trying to make the conversations like really like natural and slow. Um, because, yeah, you reach stuff back and it like it sounds so robotic and awkward, um, and like, yeah, you just have to kind of freshen it up.

Speaker 1 1:02:45

and so I'm constantly, constantly rewriting what I've written yeah, whenever I'm writing dialogue, my my rule, that I try to follow as much as possible, is that both people that are talking are talking about a completely different thing, like they're. They're talking together, but they both have different scripts, so they're not actually talking about the same thing um yeah, yeah, good way to.

Speaker 3 1:03:09

yeah, it's a good way to look at that because, yeah, like yeah you're, that's the whole thing. Yeah, you're not supposed to know what the other person is thinking. Yeah, and that's very hard to do when you're writing for two, three people at a time.

Speaker 1 1:03:37

When I was first trying to teach myself how to write, because I didn't learn in school, this was like maybe 2008,. I think I was like learn how to write, I want to learn how to do this and, um, the. The first thing that I read was uh, the screen was the screenplay for dawn of the dead, romero's dawn of the dead okay and it was incredible.

Speaker 1 1:03:50

I I didn't know that a screenplay was going to look like that, because I read it and I'm like I can see the movie as I'm reading this, like this could just be a book. It's just formatted differently, so, yeah, yeah, yeah, like that's the thing.

Speaker 3 1:04:08

Like, yeah, I'd encourage anyone to like, yeah, who really likes a movie to read some screenplays. It's so interesting how it translates. And then, yeah, you'll see all the bits that they cut as well, because oftentimes you'll watch a movie and it's like how did they get from this point to that point? That's usually on the page, wow, but they've cut it out of the scene.

Speaker 2 1:04:32

I didn't know that.

Speaker 1 1:04:33

Next time I'm dissatisfied, I'm gonna go find the screenplay yeah, the second screenplay that I read was for hot tub time machine, and it was interesting to compare the two, because george romero's screenplay is exactly like you see it in the movie, because, like everything that he wrote, they're like this has to be exactly the way that george romero wrote it, because it's brilliant. Hot tub time machine couldn't be. The screenplay couldn't be more different from the movie because so many producers had their fingers in it yeah, so like george romero's vision.

Speaker 1 1:05:07

They were just like they're, just like you do, you, romero?

Speaker 3 1:05:11

yeah, actually, if you want an interesting one, if you read the, the pilot for breaking bad, so it's like it's literally the it translates beautifully. Like it's literally what was written on things, but like it's all the like it's a little differences. So originally it was supposed to be set in cal and obviously they did it in Albuquerque, new Mexico, because it's cheaper to film there and stuff. But yeah, if you're reading the script, it's quite funny, all these little differences, all the California references.

Speaker 1 1:05:45

Yeah, I think I'm going to read that because it's probably going to be great.

Speaker 3 1:05:51

It's a really good read.

Speaker 2 1:05:53

I'm glad it ended up in Albuquerque, because New Mexico is fascinating from a place for filming, yeah. So what's next with the teleplay? Like, how does one do this?

Speaker 3 1:06:04

Yeah, it's similar to traditional publishing. Yeah, like sending it out to agencies and stuff like that. So, yeah, it's going to be tough, the chances of it happening are quite low, but I've got to try. It's something that I want to do, it's something that I've always kind of wanted to get into movies and tv, um, like from a writing perspective and directing, um, but writing mainly. Okay, yeah, I feel like I have stories as well well, you've already got a connection.

Speaker 1 1:06:46

Your dad's dogs are friends with killian murphy's dog, so like, if you get your dogs involved but yeah, I've got another, but I'm not.

Speaker 3 1:06:55

Yeah, I'm not going to use it.

Speaker 2 1:06:56

I've got another too, yeah.

Speaker 3 1:06:59

Well, some, uh, yes, my wife, um, her, her cousin, was married to um like a film and TV actor, Um, so um. But like, yeah, like you know, there's that whole like one I w I wouldn't want to awkwardly come here to do this, but like, yeah, I don't think it's kind of like nice and I think it's good to kind of try and do it on your own as well, so I get more of a sense of achievement, yeah, so, yeah, I'm going to do my best to do it myself.

Speaker 2 1:07:31

Well, we're rooting for you, gerard. That would be very cool and, uh, I think you're absolutely right. Like you got to go for it. The only people who actually make it happen. Go for it yeah sort of like a zombie apocalypse.

Speaker 1 1:07:41

It might be hard, but there are survivors yeah, that's it um, are there any plans for a sequel to the end? I know you mentioned maybe a few novellas, but is there an a the end two?

Speaker 3 1:07:56

um, yeah. So yeah, I I think yeah, maybe there could be because, like, yeah, I did leave, leave the space open, um, it's whether I have the, the time and and uh, like the capacity, because it does take a lot out of you and takes a long time and kind of balancing life with that. But yeah, I'd definitely probably start with a few of the short stories first and kind of go from there and see how that fills out. I'll start on the short story first and see how it goes.

Speaker 1 1:08:34

I mean short stories must be so satisfying to. Like you know, I've. I've been in the in the thick of it for a long time and you you spent a long time on on your bucket, like being able to put something out quick. I could imagine that dopamine hit yeah, yeah, that's it.

Speaker 3 1:08:52

Like yeah. So I'm more confident that, yeah, I could put it like, yeah, I could put out a short story Because, like obviously, like when I was plotting everything out, like for the prologue and stuff, like I did have that kind of backstory kind of mapped out, like it's just not fully fleshed. So like, yeah, I've got, so yeah, I've got a few different ways that that story can go. So I think if I kind of focused on it, I think I could put it out pretty quickly.

Speaker 2 1:09:23

That's exciting. Can't wait to see. What is the backstory? That's often always a question that's going on when you're reading a book like yours, so satisfying that for readers would be wonderful. It's been a real pleasure to chat with you, gerard, and for folks who cannot see us, because this is an audio version, we have gone from a beautiful green backyard to pitch black because it is a Saturday now evening for you. So I just want to say thank you for doing this on a weekend and taking the time to just chat with us. It's really been fun to get to know you, and all of our fingers and toes will remain crossed. I'll be doing everything with them crossed as you're working on your teleplay. Can't wait to see it.

Speaker 3 1:10:01

Oh, thank you very much. Yeah, yeah, and yeah, yeah, so, and yeah, we've got, um, well, I think this is going out in march, though, but, um, yeah, doing it, doing a giveaway at the moment, but, uh, instagram, but I'm sure I'll do another one in the near future.

Speaker 2 1:10:19

Where can people find you?

Speaker 3 1:10:21

I'm just at Gerard Clark, author on Instagram, the same on X. I don't use X too much. You'll find all my links on my Instagram. That'll link to my Amazon page where you can purchase my novel or a kindle version.

Speaker 1 1:10:40

or if you've got kindle, uh, unlimiters, it's free there yeah, all those links will be down in the notes down below.

Speaker 2 1:10:49

Awesome and you can also hang out with us and gerard at the brain munchers zombie collective discord. We have some good chats on there, so if you want an inside scoop, come, come hang out on the discord with us.

Speaker 3 1:11:01

Yeah, there's some funny discussions that go on there. It's a good, good group of people.

Speaker 1 1:11:07

Yeah, we've been enjoying it a lot, well thanks. Thanks for joining us. This has been a pleasure.

Speaker 3 1:11:14

Yeah, thanks for having me, it's been a lot of fun.

Speaker 2 1:11:20

Twists and turns. You never know what we're going to ask, and I never knew there'd be murderers in this conversation other than the regular ones in the book.

Speaker 3 1:11:25

Yeah, that's it. Don't forget to put that content warning. Oh right, Thank you.

Final Thoughts and Contact Information

Speaker 2 1:11:31

We'll record that after.

Speaker 1 1:11:32

Thanks everybody for listening to the Zombie Book Club. It really means a lot.

Speaker 2 1:11:37

We love you guys. I know it's awkward to say it, but it's true.

Speaker 1 1:11:40

Yeah, I have intimacy problems and I have a hard time telling people I love them. That's true. We've discussed that a lot lately. Okay, I love you. Are you happy? I am. If you want to support us, you can leave a rating, a review. You can send us a voicemail up to three minutes, no longer than that. It's against the rules. If you wrote a book, you could send us an elevator pitch on that voicemail.

Speaker 2 1:12:07

Like Gerard did. That's how we got to know Gerard. It was a great way to start.

Speaker 1 1:12:11

Yeah, it was a great pitch.

Speaker 2 1:12:20

Go back did.

Speaker 1 1:12:20

That's how we got to know, gerard, it was a great way to start. Yeah, it was a great pitch. Go back and listen to it, um, but you can send that at 614-699-006 606 all those. It's in the show notes. It's in the look. Just look at the show notes. I am unreliable. You can't trust the numbers that come out of my mouth. What am I? A computer? I'm a computer Leah. Anyways, you can follow us on Instagram at ZombieBookClubPodcast, or join the Brain Munchers collective on Discord. Also in the notes down below.

Speaker 2 1:12:44

And, most importantly, go get that book on Kindle Unlimited or on Amazon. Go. Check out Gerard Clark on Instagram and X, if you're on there just for fun.

Speaker 1 1:12:54

Yeah, also, you know what? Blue Sky is cool.

Speaker 2 1:12:57

Yeah, come on Blue Sky with us, gerard.

Speaker 3 1:13:02

Yeah, I think I actually will join because I'm morally waning away from X.

Speaker 1 1:13:10

Yeah, I'm making a list of people on that are part of the zombie book club on blue sky, so if you want to be on that list, you got to make an account, yeah.

Speaker 2 1:13:21

But for now that's where you can come find us. If you want to come hang out, come talk to Dan there. I'm not really on there very much. Gerard's going to be. I just heard. You heard the news here first, breaking news. We hope, wherever you are, that you have a beautiful day or night, or dreams about zombies.

Speaker 1 1:13:37

Yeah, have some lovely nightmares. Thanks everybody for listening. Bye-bye, the end is nigh. Bye.

Speaker 3 1:13:47

That was a bit low.