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Zombie Book Club
Welcome to Zombie Book Club! We're a Podcast that's also a book club! We talk about Zombie / Apocalyptic horror novels, TV and movies.
Zombie Book Club
'We Don't Sacrifice Kids to Zombies' with special guest Courtney Konstantin | Zombie Book Club Ep 104
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Courtney Konstantin, author of the Sundown series and Babysitter of the Apocalypse, joins Dan and Leah to unpack the human drama behind her zombie narratives. From flawed heroes and makeshift families to cult leaders exploiting the end of the world, Courtney shares how she builds rich characters and real-world villains that outshine the undead.
Expect candid chatter about taking care of toddlers when the world’s ending, the unconventional charm of crowbars, and whether Vicky—an emotionally scarred alcoholic thrust into guardian duty—is someone you'd trust with your own kids. We’ll also explore faith, fear, and the surprising tenderness that emerges when civilization collapses.
📌 Contact & Links:
- Website: courtneykonstantin.com
- Instagram: @courtney.konstantin_author
- BabySitter of the Apocalypse - 'We Don't Sacrifice Kids to Zombies (Book #1)
- Sundown Series - Prepared (Book #1)
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Meeting Zombie Author Courtney Constantine
Speaker 1Welcome to Zombie Book Club , the only book club where the book is actually a couple of toddlers that were dumped on you by someone who said they'd be right back and never returned . This is my literal nightmare . I'm Dan , and when I'm not ditching toddlers with random strangers , don't judge me . I'm writing a book about the collapse of our civilization , where survivors of the zombie apocalypse become slave labor and toddlers would have full-time jobs to pay the bills that they definitely have , just like Jesus intended .
Speaker 2And I'm Leah , and today we are humbled to be talking with the zombie fiction powerhouse , Courtney Constantine . Courtney is the author of the highly acclaimed Sundown series , where book one alone has over 2,400 reviews and a four and a half star rating , and her newest series I know right , Babysitters of the Apocalypse is already taking the zombie genre by storm . Dan and I just finished book one . We don't sacrifice kids to zombies . I feel like this is a good rule in the apocalypse .
Speaker 1Rule number one let's not sacrifice these kids .
Speaker 2And we are now on to book two . We don't talk to strangers .
Speaker 1Rule number two In the apocalypse .
Speaker 2When Courtney's not writing about the end of the world , she's out hiking , reading or being the ultimate friend and ally . Just ask her bestie Paris , and fellow authors Joe Salazar and Alice B Sullivan . We are truly honored and privileged to have you on the show , Courtney . Thanks for being our ZomBestie . How are you doing today ? I'm already in tears . You guys are making me laugh so hard . I am good . How are you ?
Speaker 1I told you before we started recording . I've had better days and I apologize to everyone if I just am completely out of my mind for the next however long we're doing this , but I'm exhausted . It's been a week , but I'm trying to pull it together with as much caffeine as I can possibly safely put inside of me .
Speaker 2It's almost like you feel like Vicky with two children under the age of five in the apocalypse . I'm such a Vicky right now . I love that that's become a meme . She's a meme .
Speaker 1She absolutely is .
Speaker 2She's a meme or a mood , one of the two .
Speaker 1A meme and a mood . She's a meme or a mood . One of the two a meme and a mood . She's a . She's a meme and a mood . That could be a shirt .
Speaker 2I'm a meme and a mood we might have just came up with a new business like slogan . Yeah , I think that's it we're going into business together courtney I'm in , let's do it we got to meet each other for the first time at living dead weekend and we had a sign that our zombie friend , rod the Zombie , was holding . Do you remember what the question was that Rod had ? Oh , was it the zombie apocalypse or a 40-hour work week ? Yes , was that the sign this ?
Speaker 2is our first rapid fire question for you . I would take the apocalypse .
Speaker 1I get that .
Speaker 2I love that . Say more . I just I think it's silly to say I come from the generation . Obviously , we started working pretty young . I've been working since like the day that I could get a work permit at like 15 , I think is when I started working and I have not stopped and that's been over 30 years , right . So I'm exhausted and sick of it and my husband and I often talk about the fact that we're just ready to just get rid of the regular world , and I think we are going to do this once our kids are done with school and stuff is just full time , nomad it . And I just I'm done . I'm done with civilized society . I don't , I don't want it anymore .
Speaker 1So I thought you were going a different direction . I thought you were like we're going to destroy the world .
Speaker 2I mean , oh no , no , I won't do that , just because maybe if I didn't have kids that may have kids at some point , or whatnot maybe I wouldn't care as much . But um , I do hope that they get left something . I mean , I don't , I don't know if there will be much left for them , but um , yeah , I'm just tired . I'm tired and I just would rather write . That's all I want to do . Yeah , I want a world where all you do is write , so I can read more of your stuff . I wish I'd turn faster .
Speaker 1Let's say , let's say that you got your wish and it is a
Apocalypse vs. 40-Hour Work Week
Speaker 1zombie apocalypse , um , the one that you started because you're like . You're like I want a better life , so I'm gonna make everybody infected with the zombie virus . It's your fault . What is your ? What is your weapon of choice ?
Speaker 2you know , I'm definitely going with something like a crowbar , a knife , a pipe , something that I can swing hard about . I'm not uh , I'm not inadequate with guns , but I'm not adequate enough . I , as we know from all of our Zobby lore , you need headshots . I likely am more of a solid body person if it came to my aim , and so I'm going with something that I can swing . So that would be my choice . Crowbars are heavy .
Speaker 1I got to do some more upper body workouts for a crowbar A regular crowbar is not too bad . I have one that's like four feet long and I used it at work for many years , oh no , and I've had really intense days where I'd had to use it for long periods of time , like 30 minutes straight without a break , and I come home with rubberized arms and hands that can't open up after I've after I closed them . So I , but I do think that a crowbar is a great weapon because it's also a tool .
Speaker 2Yeah , right , I'm thinking more of like the smaller ones that you would find in a like a regular car or whatnot . Yeah , not what I have . I definitely . No , I definitely am not trying to . I mean , maybe throughout the apocalypse I'll build up some upper body strength , but I don't have it for that right now . Swing that crowbar enough . Well , I'm realizing now that I've been like Vicky , your main character , which we'll get into in a second , but uses a crowbar as one of their main weapons .
Speaker 1And the whole time I was picturing this small woman , Vicky with a four foot crowbar , Because that's my frame of reference . Is Dan's wrecker bar , yeah , so I was like , wow , yeah for like smashing concrete and shit .
Speaker 2Yeah , that's why I was like man . That's heavy , so this all makes more sense . Courtney , this just shows you and you've been exposed to weird things like I have . It warps your brain .
Speaker 1I actually downgraded my crowbar one year , but then I left it on the fender of my truck and drove away and I was lost . I'm like I guess I'm going back to the big one again .
Speaker 2You know your crowbar could come in handy for this next question . It's the apocalypse One unlimited shelf , stable food item is all you get to have for the rest of your life . You've like wandered into a uh huge warehouse and there's just one thing in it and you know you could just hang out there and like live it out . What would you pick ? It's the only thing I can have , or , um , I can go out and get other things , I mean , you can forage you can still forage .
Speaker 2This is like the one guaranteed food item you're going to have probably every day .
Speaker 1Everything else will be kind of scarce , but you'll be able to find it ? I think yeah .
Speaker 2I am split between two different things and it kind of just depends . So one of the top things I think of is salt , and the reason I say that is preservation of anything else , right ? So if that's why I asked , if I can go out and I can fish , I can hunt , I can do other things , then that salt will always come in handy to preserve . And then also you have it for seasoning for vegetables or whatnot else you can find , um ? So they thought that . But then I thought any sort of legume , right , so some any sort of hard bean . Um , because that comes with a lot of protein and different , you know , vitamins that you could have . So if , if I had to have something that was actually I was eating , just that , then I would say some sort of bean , like some sort of legume . But if it was something that I could use the other stuff , I'd say salt .
Speaker 1Yeah , I've been in a warehouse full of salt . Might be a little
Survival Weapons and Essential Supplies
Speaker 1much but you could trade it .
Speaker 2I could trade it , I mean , because in the end you know , once you start to lose power , you no longer have refrigeration . You don't have , you know , so it comes down to smoking and drying and all those things , and salt comes in handy Also just flavor . Well flavor . Yeah , I need an update . Dan told me that you two were bartering actually last night via Instagram and I want to know what is the current status of your bartering in your apocalypse , dan was making me LARP or whatever it's called . I don't know .
Speaker 1I believe that we agreed on a half a bottle of iodine pills , an incomplete first aid kit that is missing its bandages but has a fully packaged suture kit , gauze and tape , and we agreed on the price of five bullets and two apples .
Speaker 2He threw in the apples at the end . I didn't know he had apples , I was holding out , but I wasn't .
Speaker 1We were talking about like 10 bullets and I'm like I'm not getting rid of 10 bullets .
Speaker 2I got to pull out the apples would you eat a red delicious apple in the apocalypse . The most disgusting apple I would eat ? Yeah , yeah , 100 , and I'm not even a big apple eater in general . But see , for me I think the most disgusting apple is a green apple . Sorry , what a granny apple . I don't like granny apples . Wow , granny smith is really an upgrade .
Speaker 1They're a little tart . I understand , I love a granny . Smith , I mean , I do too , but I get it .
Speaker 2I mean , I like the . My favorite that we get up here especially is Honeycrisp . That's my favorite apple . Yeah , you are in a place where there's a lot of apples . We got lots of apples . I'm surprised two apples and five bullets would be traded for that . But I guess it is the apocalypse Depends on where you are . I mean , it depends where you are and depends what else I had . You didn't know what else I had . Those are just the things I offered . Yeah , good point .
Speaker 1Yeah , I've still got a few more bullets . You know I can trade for other things too .
Speaker 2And , honestly , like going back to the weapon situation . Right , bullets are useful in the beginning , but not to everybody .
Speaker 1Yeah , so I'd be useless with them , yeah , right but I think the bullets themselves would be valuable , no matter what yes , well , if you could find someone else that can use them and therefore the guns that they have I think I think so many people would just think that they're great with guns and just be like I need all the bullets's so dumb .
Speaker 2Isn't that this entire country ? Yes , Sorry .
Speaker 1America .
Speaker 2No , I mean , that's true . I mean , it's the argument my husband and I always , because I'm not , I am a supporter of the Second Amendment . I am not against guns . I'm against guns that we don't need . Like you know , anybody that tries to claim I need an AR-15 for protection .
Speaker 1You're an idiot and know nothing about guns . But what if I need ?
Speaker 230 of them . You don't . All you need is a shotgun , because as soon as someone hears that , that's all you have to do , like that's literally , I mean someone's breaking into your home .
Speaker 2as soon as you slide the slide on a shotgun , you're you're probably scaring the piss out of them , and then that also has better aim than you know . It's just dumb . I grew up with cops . My dad was a police officer , so I had him and I had all of the uncles that come along with that and learned a lot about self-protection , a lot about weapons and things like that . So and I've been shooting I mean , I shot black powder with my grandfather , like you know , I've done a lot of that kind of stuff . I still do not believe I have the aim to be shooting zombies in the head , so I'm not betting on that .
Speaker 1Yeah , it's a tough thing to think that you can do .
Speaker 2I feel like this is the problem and we're going to move on to our next Fabi Fire question after this . On the opposite end , my ex-mother-in-law got a shotgun never used a gun in her life and thought she heard a bump in the night and it was her daughter coming home later than she was supposed to . Nothing happened , but she told us all about it and we were like this is why you shouldn't have a gun and not everybody should have them .
Speaker 2Yeah , or you should go take a class , like fine , just go take a course . Um , but that's more depressing than this conversation . You found a working , solar powered dvd player and box set . You have one form of entertainment , just one box set , that you could watch the rest of your life . What would you choose to watch forever ?
Speaker 1yeah , it can be a tv show , it can be a movie . It can be like one of those four packs that you get at uh at walmart . It's like the blade pack and you get like the three Blade movies but also like one that's like the one season long Blade TV show . I have this .
Speaker 2Didn't they do ?
Speaker 1a Blade TV show they did . It was one season , it was on Spike . I missed that . I love Blade . It had a different actor as Blade . This had a different actor as Blade .
Speaker 2This is a really hard one , because I want to lean to the loved , the absolute loved series that I . You know , movies and things like that I love , like Star Wars . I could watch Star Wars over and over and over . But then if I had to pick a TV show , I'd probably say something like Lost , because every single time I watch that it feels different , because I see different things I didn't notice before , um , and it's interesting enough to keep my attention . Probably , I think if I had to go with the tv show , that would be it . That's good to know , because I was actually thinking like , should I watch lost again ? And you just answered my question . It's been a long time , yeah , yeah , I just actually restarted-watching it like a month or so ago , and I was like I didn't remember that , did I even know that before ? Like so it's , once you know the ending and you start re-watching things , you're like , oh , I see how that made sense , like why that meant something , and yeah , so I like that I only saw the first season I don't remember how .
Speaker 2So here's one of my worst traits as a human being is I forget everything . So even though I watched it , I'm like how did it end ?
Speaker 2so I think I'm gonna have to talk with you okay , maybe offline you can tell me how it ended and then I'll remember and then I can watch it and enjoy it . Okay , that's how this goes . Uh , final bonus , rapid fire question , just for you you're traveling with a kid in the apocalypse . They're five . Obviously you're caring about food , you're caring about shelter , you came with clothes and diapers , but you can carry one extra thing for them . How do you choose what that one extra thing is and what would it be ? And you say they're five .
Speaker 2Yeah , see , one of the things I think is the biggest problem , that would be the biggest problem for children , is boredom . Right , I mean , it doesn't matter , that's the apocalypse , they're five . They are going to be born out of their gourd and you have to do something to keep them entertained . Um , crap , I don't know , because usually the way I've written my stories is that my survivors find some sort of like source of power , whether it's a solar power or something , or they've got a rv that has a generator or something , and in those situations I've typically made sure there was some sort of like Blu-ray or DVD player .
Speaker 1Yeah , so you can put Shrek on yeah , anything , anything .
Speaker 2Because I just think that one of the biggest issues would be just well , and they're going to drive you crazy . I mean , I love my kids , but on long rides I want to dose them with Benadryl .
Speaker 1Like we do with our dog .
Speaker 2Yeah , right . So it would be something entertainment based and I would hope , if I had a power source , it'd be something like a little mini DVD player or something . Would , you sacrifice Lost for a kid's show ? Yes , like Bluey , yeah .
Speaker 1Put some Bluey on .
Speaker 2I actually my kids were not . Not . My kids were over the age for bluey . Um I , as I understand it , bluey causes adults a lot of , uh , emotional turmoil , so maybe I would go with I didn't know like I see , I see memes about how bluey's mom is like exhausted and all these moms are like yeah , I get that like I'm like , so maybe I should watch this show .
Speaker 2That would be a smart kids show . Should be smart enough to do that because it's like when I watched simpsons as a kid I had no idea what was happening from the adult perspective of that show , but a lot yeah , makes me want to watch the simpsons .
Speaker 1Now , the simpsons , you know what ?
Speaker 2all 26 seasons of the simpsons is my , my , my box set actually that's not bad I mean , that's another one that it would be like I forgot . Any of that actually happened yeah .
Speaker 1And actually I think they're at like 36 or 40 seasons .
Speaker 2They're still going .
Speaker 1Oh God , yeah , Wow , I think so . Yeah , I'm pretty sure , in fact . Sad news I saw a thing this morning that the person who voiced the actor for Marge passed away . Oh , voice the actor for marge . Uh passed away . Oh , oh , that's very sad . Um , anyways , let's talk about your book . Uh , so you want to be a writer ever since you were a kid , right ? Um , yeah , was there a particular story that , uh , that you wrote , that inspired where you are now in your career , or that you read ? Maybe ?
Speaker 2No , I mean . So I used to write like poetry and things like that when I was a kid . I was never very good at that , and I was a heavy romance reader as a kid , so I thought romance was going to be what I wrote . While I tried to do that that I can never finish a story it just never like happened . I would kept writing the same story over and over and I would get to a point where I was like I don't know where this is going .
Speaker 2Um , I've always really loved , though , just like mad max movies and , uh , you know , terminator and anything that's kind of like apocalyptic , futuristic , those kind of things .
Speaker 2I've been very into those kind of movies ever since I was a kid , and so when the idea came to my mind about the Sundown series , the idea was basically what if one of those situations happened that I've watched over and over again and read , but I had no way of contacting my friends or family across the country ? How would we like , do we have a plan to come together ? And that was kind of what started the first book , and then I finally found that I could finish a story , and so it told me that this was the thing I needed to be writing . This was the thing that I was invested in and it felt really good and so it just kept going . I would say the zombie portion inspiration on that would probably be Jonathan Mayberry . Patient Zero was one of my favorite zombie books there for a really long time and Rotten Ruin his series Rotten Ruin so those were kind of my bigger like zombie books that I read .
Speaker 1I think I remember back in that time I think I remember you mentioning that when we were at Living Dead Weekend and I'd never heard anyone mention that book before because I also read it . I remember like 2007 or something , a period of my life where I spent mostly day drinking and not working , a period of my life where I spent mostly day drinking and not working , and I remember reading this book , just like laying in bed until like from morning until afternoon , just like reading this book , and I don't really remember much about it , but I do remember reading it .
Speaker 2It's actually funny because I'm not a military sci-fi reader at all , but Jonathan Mayberry's Joe Ledger series , I mean , I started with Patient Zero because it was a zombie . That was why I picked it up . I thought , oh , this is cool , and just fell in love with and really it's the narrator too , ray Porter . His narrator is phenomenal . And so I listened to Patient Zero . I think I may have read it first paperback and then listened to it , and then I just kept going and it turned out I did like the military sci-fi , at least of his . But the Patient Zero was just an interesting take . And then Rotten Ruin is just straight up zombies , which is great too .
Speaker 1Yeah , that's one I haven't checked out yet , so maybe I got to add that to my list .
Speaker 2What kind of zombies do you like to write about ? Slow , because a lot of the time , a lot of time , we get people in here that , like I , would prefer a slow zombie in real life , but I love writing fast zombies . So tell me why you like slow zombies . So I find that what I want to write is the human aspect of the apocalypse , right ? I don't want to write these people that are just being torn to shreds on a constant basis and I feel like , when you're writing fast zombies number one , someone like
Writing Post-Apocalyptic Villains
Speaker 2Vicky , who is not super spatially aware all the time she's going to be dead . She has no chance . There is zero chance for her to survive , right Like 0.01% or whatever of her chances of surviving . And I want these people to survive . I want their stories to be what's important in these books .
Speaker 1So slow zombies and also fast zombies just scare me and I don't want to write about them yeah , I shared some of my art and I remember your response was like those are fast zombies and it was just like a scared expression emoji .
Speaker 2I think , yeah , no , thank you . Like , uh , the train to busan . That movie freaks me out . I love it , it is phenomenal . But just like how fast they , they turn it like you know how fast they move and then how they literally just like they zone in on what they're after and they go for it . I'm like , yeah , I don't , I don't like that , I don't .
Speaker 2So no , I don't write that I understand um I also hope that it's a slow zombie , if it happens , because I'm not very spatially aware either . I feel I have a lot of vicky and me I think , um , but the zombies are also . I've seen you say elsewhere like the zombies are also not the main . Um , they're there , but they're not the scariest thing in the apocalypse in your books . No , how do you , how do you approach writing villains and do you have like a favorite one that you've ever written ? Um , so in my mind , villains are the people that we already know of , right , right . So I think the favorite villain that I created was in the Sundown series and it's the fourth book . It's in Torment , and I created a guy who decided that he was gonna be a king . Basically , he thought he could take over , but what he really was was a drug dealer . That was what started it . He was a drug dealer and when the apocalypse hit , he realized the power that he had over people that had addiction and so people that you know . He was either able to control the people that wanted the product he had , so they were doing his dirty work until it just slowly grew into . You know , he ended up with a brothel and he had a whole area that he controlled , and then it was people that just didn't know how to survive on their own . And here was this guy that clearly had power , and so they would do his bidding . You know women that would sell their bodies because he said so , so that they could have food and protection , and but that , to me , is what would happen , like in the real world , if you . You know , you see it all the time when there are any sort of tragedies or natural disasters , how fast people turn on themselves , on each other . It's so quick , and and I think that there are weaknesses . And then I think there are people that just don't know what they're , what to do , and so they will turn to whoever has the power or the control , and it doesn't matter if they're a good or bad person . They'll keep them alive , and so they'll , you know . So that was one of my favorite .
Speaker 2I wrote that book and I actually had people like contact me and they're like are you okay ? Because it was probably the most violent thing . The stuff that happened with that guy was the worst that I had written Torture scenes and things like that and everyone was like , we think she's lost her rocker . I was like , oh , was that too dark for you all . Okay , sorry , what's it like to put yourself in that mental space ? Because , just for people who are not don't know Courtney well yet , courtney's not a villain . Okay , courtney is the hero in a story , for sure . So , like I always wonder what it's like to put yourself there .
Speaker 2As an author , I think that a part of me wanting to be a good person is understanding what the bad is Right . So I , I'm not a blind good person . I'm not . I'm not blindly just like , oh , everything's roses and peaches and the world is beautiful and the sun is always shining . No , it's not . I'm realistic in the fact that there's criminals , there's crime , there's dangerous people , and so I look at those people and I say , okay , well , how can I exasperate that ? And then I always know they're not going to survive . So in the end , in my mind , I'm creating a really bad person and then I'm going to make sure they die pretty well too .
Speaker 2So yeah , so that makes me feel better about creating the person , knowing that they're not going to make it right , like I know that you aren't going to win , no matter how good I make you . My , my heroes are better , period , it doesn't matter . You know . So that I think that makes it easier . That kinds of that sounds kind of fun . So , like when they're doing awful things , do you soothe yourself by just imagining what terrible way they're gonna die ? Yeah , and I'm not gonna give away how that guy dies , just because it would be kind of like a spoiler , but I was super happy with it . I was very happy with it . You heard it here . Yeah , so if you get through the first few books , torment is yeah , it's the fourth , the fourth book in that series .
Speaker 1And the title says it all .
Speaker 2Yeah , I kind of tied myself in . This is kind of it's a funny story that when I wrote prepared , I was like , well , now I'm writing more . Can I do I make the titles longer ? I'm like , oh , I kind of screwed myself , so they're all just one word . So I think it's good , though it shows like a really good progression , and is it ? I haven't read the Sundown series yet . Is it final at six ? It is . Yeah , people aren't thrilled with that . Um , so I , I may do a , a new series based on the same characters , but hop forward so it'll be more dystopian than post-apoc . But , um , yeah , I don't know some writers I , you know , like , look at , like I think it's like mark tufo's got like he's got like 30 books or something , and he's like you know , there's so many writers that just keep . And now Mark's is not just zombie , right , it is sci-fi with all sorts of .
Speaker 1he has a lot going on in that series Vampires , zombies .
Speaker 2Yeah , and something with God , whatever , whatever is going on with that . But you know , he's got like a lot of different components that can grow a series way bigger . Mine's , mine aren't like that right , they're very just general . This , these are the characters and this is what's happening . Um , and so I just felt like this was this was a good ending , uh . But people were like , well , we want more . And I'm just like , oh , good for you , thanks . Do you just picture yourself in the misery movie when people say that you're like , oh no , oh right , no , I luckily never had that . Oh my goodness , could you imagine ? Um , yeah , no , but I uh it's kind of something we've talked about before right , like we're so accessible to readers . So I talk to a lot of my readers . They contact me , usually through facebook or sometimes they'll email , you know , email me directly , and I'm fine with that . I love , and I've never had anyone be really nasty or scary , and no stalkers , that's good that is very good .
Speaker 1Do both of your series exist in the same zombie universe ?
Speaker 2Yes , that was not initially the plan . If people have read the Sundown series and then they get to the second Babysitter series or second of the Babysitter series , they will pick up on some connections , and the third book there's heavy connections . So I got that idea actually from and I may have already told you this , dan , I don't remember I got that idea actually from reading Jonathan Mayberry , so his Rotten Ruins series , joe Ledger , is in it .
Speaker 1Right , I do remember you telling me this .
Speaker 2Yeah , and I got just the pleasure of meeting Jonathan Mayberry at a conference , actually a couple of times , but I asked him about that specific thing because I was getting around to ending my first series and thinking about what I could do with these characters and he said that it absolutely delights readers to catch things like that , and so I was like , okay , I'm going to do that . So they are the , they are the same universe , yeah .
Speaker 1I do . I do like that a lot . There's a few , a few series is . Series is is is that you know they have multiple series of the same kind , of the same genre , and I love that they write in the same universe , because I love that's what I love about the environment of the zombie apocalypse is that , like you get to the end of the story of your characters after six books . What's to say that you can't start over from the beginning of this place that you've already built up in your mind ? You built the world and tell a different story somewhere else .
Speaker 2Yeah , but also the characters like I get a . I don't know what it's like to write a character I , I would be so emotionally attached and have a really hard time killing any of them . Um , but when you love a book and you love a story and then you just have to sort of like live with the fact that you might never hear about in this case , like I know , I'm gonna keep reading Vicky because I've already started the second book but , like , if that was it , if that was the end , then I would just have this world of imagination in my own brain of , like what Vicky is up to so for her to reappear somewhere . Like , for this other person to reappear in book three . I can see why that would be super exciting . Um , okay , so I I wish I knew how long ago it was , but I it's been a couple of years I was asked to write a short story for an anthology for the Gary Sinise Foundation . It was a short run anthology that all of the proceeds went to that foundation and , um , uh , I got the rights back to it .
Speaker 2But when I went to write that , I was still writing the Sundown series and I was , like you know , I wrote these people that are fairly well prepared . They have a lot of knowledge , they were able to take care of themselves . That doesn't mean that you know they're ready for zombies particularly , but they had been raised by a prepper . They had a lot of stuff going on . I was like I want to write something . That is completely not sure what they're doing . And so Vicky was born , and then I was like , okay , so then what can I do to make her life really difficult ? I'm like , oh , here's some kids that's horrible , I'm a horrible person .
Speaker 1No , I I , I love flawed characters like that because like , uh it you know , like if you read a lot of zombie apocalypse not to trash on anyone , I don't want to do that , but there there are some people that write very prepared characters and that can be fun , um , but when everybody writes the most prepared character ever , it's it doesn't always work . And when you write flawed characters like that's really fun in the apocalypse because they're gonna screw up yeah , oh , and Vicky does .
Speaker 2Yeah , I think I think Vicky for me , you know , I loved my the Duncan family from my first series . They're near and dear to my heart , being the first series I've ever written and people absolutely love them . And while they're prepared and they have , they have really strong humanity and all these things . All these things , um , they just knew what they were doing and it , and so it makes it a little less like I guess I don't know threatening or a little less I don't know how to explain it challenging for them . Yeah , when I wrote vicky , her story to me is the ultimate story of humanity because she literally doesn't know how to care and love for people , like , like love people . She has . No , she doesn't have the equipment .
Speaker 2You know we , most humans , are raised in and there's all sorts of psychology around this that you have the initial bonds with your parents and then that creates synapses in your brain that teach you things about bonding and love and not that everybody has that . And that was what Vicky was . She was someone that did not have those connections from her very early in her life and only really learned that she was a burden to people , and so when then she was stuck in a situation of okay , now I've got two kids that are literally who I was . Nobody wants them right now . I need to now be the person that wants them and to watch her have to go through all those like psychological , like issues of like you know , I have to care about these things . It was just , it felt to me it was like a story of humanity and and overcoming you know , your beginnings and her .
Speaker 2Her fear of actually caring , I think , is like even though she doesn't name it that immediately , but is palpable , because it's like she doesn't want to care about the kids and she doesn't want to care about the other people that she meets and at the same time , she's so fiercely protective of those kids , like there's never a moment where I think that she's going to ditch them , not once it doesn't even seem like it occurs to her . So I I feel kind of bad because I don't . I think that I'm obviously I'm often not very good about explaining that there is a prequel to the series and I don't think I ever told you guys that . So I apologize for that if you didn't know that . Um , because the short story that I wrote for the anthology is the prequel and it's only on ebook . It's not actually , if I think , on the audio .
Speaker 2It is at the end of the audio first audio book yeah , I think it's at the end , but in that she does think about it and um , and the place that she thinks is safe is not . It ends up not being . And , instead of saying I'm bouncing , she does take them with her and it's a split decision and um , she makes it really quickly and um . But I think there's like a few scenes , like in the first book , where I think there's a scene where they're she's with the other group and and gabby is looking at her through a window and she's obviously very fearful , she's scared , and someone's like she's looking at you and and vicky's like why ? Like she just doesn't understand the , the concept that this little kid is like needs you , and she's like , okay , I'm fine , whatever you know . So , yeah , she goes through a lot of ups and downs with that for sure . Yeah , I'm sorry I missed that prequel . I'm going to have to go read it .
Speaker 1Yeah , I do recall it . Now it's at the end of the audio book .
Speaker 2Oh , I just skipped straight to the second book . It's over now , skip . That's what happened . I'm not kidding , yeah , um , but I uh I think . Underneath that , though , is just like she also doesn't seem to know how to , or the beginning like , physical affection is hard for vicky too , and seeing what the kids even need there , but she always makes sure they're eating , that they can go to the bathroom .
Speaker 2There's some great scenes about vicky getting peed on that I appreciated , and also the realness of her like regardless of whether you wanted a kid or not , or you chose a kid or not , I think that vicky the way that you describe sometimes her moments of snapping at the kids or like not being her best self felt very real and relatable , because I was putting myself in her shoes and being like I think I'd probably also snap at this kid right now . Oh God , yeah , the peeing . That's a true story . I had a feeling I was the child , though , when I was little , and I used to camp a ton with my grandparents , and my grandmother had taught me the process of leaning on her to pee , and I am pretty positive that I peed on her at least once .
Speaker 2And I love her dearly for teaching me how to squat in in the woods on my own , um I , but that was where I got that idea , because it just made me laugh so hard and , honestly , like the worst .
Speaker 2One of the worst things about kids is bodily fluids .
Speaker 2So I mean , and if you haven't raised kids and had to deal with diapers and then all of a sudden you do , it has got to be the most disgusting thing ever because it's not your child and so I can't even imagine because I have only had my own kids like having to all of a sudden look
Babysitters of the Apocalypse Origins
Speaker 2at this baby and be like I have to wipe , like what you know what I mean ? And and Vicky already like just doesn't have that connection . And yeah , the physical , because she's never known , you know , um , what it is to have , not not so much doesn't know what it is to have physical touch , but she doesn't know what it is to have physical touch that doesn't have strings attached and having someone have some sort of I mean , yeah , of course the kids have some sort of expectation of her , but it's innocent expectation of we just want love and food and caring and not not like I want you for your body or whatever you know the things that she went through , you know through her life .
Speaker 1Yeah , you know , going going back a little bit to talking about how the kids are now kind of in the position that she was in . I didn't even consider that these kids are now orphans , which is the same situation that she was in . So she's now in the foster parent category that she doesn't have the greatest memories with . I didn't even consider that .
Speaker 2Yeah , I think that's kind of her mindset . She doesn't really say it so much , but it's like I think that as she kind of grows with them and realizes that they , like these , are the first people in her entire life that needed her for anything no one's ever needed Vicky for anything and they need her for something that only she can give them at the time , and so it's something that she really has to come to terms with . And the girls also , the kids also , in turn become attached to her , because that's what's going to end up happening , right , they're going to care about the person that's caring about them . And now she has to figure out what do I do with this affection ? What do I do with like these , these feelings that are real and they're precious and they're fragile ? So she's just kind of figuring that out as she goes , and then , of course , there's a lot of irritation , right , cause the five-year-olds and know it all . So I love Gabby , I love her realness and I won't spoil it , but what she's she says to a super bad guy at the end was wonderful . I was like , yes , also , but maybe , maybe fawning is the better choice right now . I don't know , kid , but I love you for standing up against this person . Yeah , no , she's great .
Speaker 2She's the reason I have the rules on the titles , because she has all these rules but they don't really apply , not all of them . The car seats apply . Having car seats in the apocalypse would be an important thing for little kids , so that applies . But all of her like she has so many , like we can't do this , or you know , she has to learn that there are very specific , important rules you know in the apocalypse and that she needs to listen . So that's where I came up with having the rules and the titles , because Gabby's the rule follower . They also make me laugh . Yeah , we don't talk to strangers . That feels extra important . You'll see why .
Speaker 1Yeah , there's a reason for it . So there's rules that are still applicable in the apocalypse , and then there's some rules that don't , some of the old world rules . They go away .
Speaker 2What do you think changes the most ? Like what rules no longer exist in quiet inside the house kind of situation . Now you need to be silent , you need to be silent all the time , and kids are not good at that anyways . Right , and so I think that's one of the bigger ones is like keeping how do you keep kids quiet , having them understand that silence is a rule and it's an absolute rule . One of the ones I think that always kind of cracks me up and I think is one of the most fun things to write about is that you know stealing and things like that , those don't matter anymore , right , so you can basically just go in and take whatever you want , because there's not anyone . I mean , there may be people that will try to stop you and you know you'll have to face those kind of things , but those kind of rules are out the door .
Speaker 1There's obviously no traffic rules anymore that .
Speaker 2Yeah , um , so you know basic laws and things like that , but the the you know we don't talk to strangers . You know strangers obviously are a bad thing now and they but I feel like they would be worse in the apocalypse , and so , because a stranger could be someone that's just recently infected and you don't know , and especially for a five-year-old , they don't understand , and so that's that's to me was like you really need to make sure you're understanding . You do not talk to strangers , yeah they could also be absolutely feral .
Speaker 1Uh , that too right , like cannibals and things like that , yeah like not not in contact with humans for several months and suddenly they're just like . People are here and I'm excited and also , I don't know , maybe I'm imagining it . I mean , there is a character like that in the book . I don't know .
Speaker 2Maybe I'm imagining it . I mean , there is a character like that in the book . I don't know how much we want to share about that . I love her though she's that's bet . And she , yeah , I won't share too much just because she's so funny and you have to kind of read it , but she isn't . Yeah , don't talk to strangers unless the adults have the chance to vet them first , unless the adults have the chance to like vet them first . But I think that she was another great addition for Vicky , because Vicky was like this poor . She felt sympathy for her and also knew that she was a little nuts . But she , this was . Now here's this woman who's like a grandmotherly figure who cares about her , and Vicky had never had that before and she was like like , oh , like you're really kind and um , I , yeah , you might be a little crazy and that's okay and I think , I think characters like , like , uh , like , bet they , uh , they bring up this other question too , which is like do strangers know how to raise your kids better than you do ?
Speaker 2Yeah , the one thing I have gotten questions about is like why would this woman just leave her kids and how'd this end up happening ? And like , why would you even think something like that ? And I'm just like , well , I think that you know , when it comes to parenting in general , not all parents are great , right , that's just true . There are parents that really suck out there . We see stories of horrific things that happen to kids all the time .
Speaker 2I don't think that gabby's , gabby and tina's mom was a horrible mom . I think that she was slightly , um , unrealistic about her ability of coming back from trying to save her sister and maybe really didn't understand the severity of what was happening at that time . I don't , I didn't write her or write that situation the way to vilify their mom . So I'm not , you know , I wasn't trying to like really say anything about that , but I do think that in the apocalypse there were probably going to be people that are better for it than others . And I think Vicky's ability to not give a crap about everybody right , she cares about the girls , she cares about her group , everybody else , like .
Speaker 1I don't know if I need to worry about you .
Speaker 2You're strangers , yeah , and so she's going to dedicate the most of her energy to these kids , whereas their biological mom had other people that she was worrying about too , and that doesn't make her a bad mom , but that also meant that she her energy went elsewhere and took her away from them , and that's not . I mean , that doesn't exactly happen . The same thing like vicky doesn't have that type of mindset . She's like these are number one , period , the end , so yeah , but then new people come into the picture . So like vicky's taken on this mantle that you know she's not called mom . That's very clear , at least as far as I've read . Uh , but she's basically playing that role , whether she wants to admit to herself or not . And that comes in the picture . And also theo um , a little bit into the the . I want to call it a show . My brain's also blank . It's a show .
Speaker 1The book I want it to be a show . It'd be great .
Speaker 2Yeah , mc that would be amazing mc listens definitely MC lessons ? Definitely we wish . But they both point out that Tina is still using a soother and I know that this is like a real thing . Tina's like two right Mm-hmm . And this is the thing that I hear in regular life , not apocalypse life . Lots of people love to judge how other people raise their kids , Yep , and I'm curious about that moment , Like it's interesting to me . Vicky , who's an alcoholic , also doesn't want to take away the coping mechanism for the two-year-old .
Speaker 2But also is she right , because it's the fucking apocalypse and all the rules don't apply anymore . And , kid , you want to get weird teeth and suck on your thing ? Then keep going . Yeah Well , I think number one Vicky doesn't know the risks of the teeth , like you know right . But I don't think Vicky has any clue , like she has never paid attention to what happens to a child's teeth if they have a pacifier until they're four or whatever it is . But I think at the same point she knows that her thing is I need alcohol and that's what sues me .
Parenting in the Zombie Apocalypse
Speaker 2If this baby wants a freaking rubber thing in their mouth , then they can absolutely . She can absolutely have it , and I'm not taking it away from her . And not to mention the silence thing . We go back to keeping her quiet . There's nothing else that does that right now . Um , and she is not at the age of understanding that , hey , there's monsters , you have to be quiet . That's only going to make her louder . And so when I think it's bet , that says , uh , she's a little old for that and if he's like , she can have whatever the f she wants . It's the apocalypse , you know . Um , yeah , it's , it's a choice .
Speaker 1But I think vicky understands soothing because she does it herself I , I could use some parental advice , because I think I'd be a terrible parent . Um , because when , when , the , when the stakes are , I , I tend to remind people of how dangerous and terrifying the stakes are . Um , even if they happen to be a child . So , like the whole , like monsters are outside , I'd be like hey , listen , please don't scream at the top of your lungs because there's rabid human beings outside of our window that want to break in and fucking kill us . Anyways , good night , sleep . Well , I'm gonna close the door and turn off the lights , because if the lights are on , they'll be able to see in through the window and we'll try to attack you in the middle yeah , but you're trying to reason with a two-year-old .
Speaker 1Yeah , like yeah do you think that's the way to do it , or is there a better way to do it ?
Speaker 2I think there's an honesty piece in it . I mean , there's the scene I'm trying to remember exactly where it is , but uh where they're sleeping in the back of a car and gabby starts screaming in the morning because there's a zombie and vicky's like basically , shut the fuck up . Like you do not understand , you're making it worse . Like you're screaming is making it worse . I think gabby's age she knows something bad has happened like she may not totally understand how , obviously isn't gonna understand how it happened . She knows there's monsters . A two-year-old , though , is , even if you did tell them all the stuff that you just said they're gonna look and be like okay , like they . Just there isn't that understanding yet . Um , I think there's some honesty . That does have to happen , though , at an age where they're going to look and be like okay , like they . Just there isn't that understanding yet . I think there's some honesty . That does have to happen , though , at an age where they're starting to understand where , like Gabby is like you . You know there's monsters . You know that you're screaming is making it worse . So zip it , and that is your job is just to zip it , and she does kind of figure that out .
Speaker 2There's a few scenes where she seems to like keep her sister quiet and take care of her , because she's aware that that is my job . Like I'm five , I'm old enough to do this and I need to keep myself quiet and try to help keep my sister quiet . It's so dark to think about too , like all the times where she had to help with protecting tina or taking care of tina , and she's three years older . Um , it was a little devastating to read . I don't know what that would be like to to write and have to think it through . And again , going back to the rules , like , um , in regular societal rules it's , we don't kill people .
Speaker 1Yeah , but it's not a thing anymore .
Speaker 2Yeah and like , how does that , how does that shape a five-year-old's mentality when they have to , like , grapple with the killing people is going to be possibly normal ? Yeah , and I think , um , because you guys are getting into the second book , you're gonna see that gabby sees a little bit more of people and not zombies , um , that end up being dangerous for her and um , but she's understanding how serious vicky's rules are and and why she thinks the way that she thinks and things like that . And , yeah , it's , I think that there's , and Gabby kind of reminded me of me , right ? So , in a way , because I am only three years older than my next sibling and it was , I always took care of my sibling , it was always my thing . It didn't matter that they were half my size and I'm trying to like lift them up and walk around with them . That was who I was , and so I do think that that is a natural thing for a lot of older siblings , especially female older siblings .
Speaker 2Um , I think that we just I don't know if it's DNA or what it is , but I think often that that does happen in just regular society . And so , uh , vicky has gone inside a store that has a vending machine that hasn't been broken into anymore or yet . And while she's cleaning this out , a person shows up not a zombie , an actual person and starts to peek inside their vehicle and Gabby immediately pegs him as he's bad and she knows it , and so she hides with Tina in their vehicle and then , and then you know , vicky has to come , but Vicky doesn't end up killing him in front of her or anything . She didn't . They ended up getting away . But it was a very smart decision on Gabby's part because she was able to say , oh , this guy's bad , like he clearly is , like not someone that I want near me or my sister . So she , she's , she's a . But I do feel bad because how are you not going to have nightmares ? Yeah , I mean , I have nightmares and I don't have any of these things happening in my life to have them .
Speaker 2It does also make me wonder , like I think , do we , do we think kids are less capable than they are ? Oh for sure . I mean , especially these days , right , I feel like we've gone so far the other direction that we've spoiled our you know , I think , a lot of people . I am not not one of these parents . I am horrible . I spoil my kids Definitely . Um , so I do think that there is a capability that kids have they can rise to an occasion . They're way smarter than we give them to , like they could do it . They could do a lot of things that we don't realize they could do .
Speaker 1They also seem to have like the sixth sense for for danger as well .
Speaker 2Um , I think so , I think they can . I mean , I think that there's obviously still all there's . You guys will see it in the , the second book . There's some other things that happen and not all kids understand if parents shelter them too much from what's happening . You know , gabby , unfortunately , has had to see it . It happens quite a bit in the prequel as they're escaping and things like that . She has seen a lot and so she has not been sheltered the way I mean maybe other kids could be , and not understanding how dangerous everything is and all that .
Speaker 1Um , I think you're gonna , it's gonna , it's gonna take all kinds right , they're all gonna , yeah , so I , uh , I recall , as a as a as a three year old , I'd been told about strangers and I saw maybe an after school special about strangers . And I was sitting in a grocery cart in a grocery store as my mom turned around to look at something on the aisle and I saw a stranger . He had the dark long coat , he had the hat , he had the dark long coat , he had the hat , he had the bushy eyebrows . I knew that that was a stranger and I screamed at him don't steal me . And he walked away and if I didn't do that , I would have been stolen and who knows where I'd be right now .
Speaker 2Don't steal me . This is my husbandney . That's amazing . It's spatial awareness as a three-year-old . Yeah , I mean , I'm impressed . I will walk into a lamppost regularly . This is my dad .
Speaker 1It's very useful in my life I spot strangers . I know what they look like I have a question for you .
Speaker 2Would you trust vicky to babysit your kids ?
Speaker 2oh , hell , no , no , I mean early vicky or later vicky like okay , later vicky , yes , yes , I think later vicky has figured it out , um , and you know she has . Yes , she still thinks about alcohol and things like that , but she understands what's important and she's working really hard . So later Vicky , yes , maybe not babysit . She could be that cool aunt that maybe takes them to the movies in the mall , like I could see that . Yeah , early Vicky , no , no , I just no . I don't need my kids drinking whiskey at the table with her . Hey , kids , you like whiskey ? Yeah , well , isn't that like an old saying of like putting whiskey on a baby's lips or something if you want them to say On their gums ?
Speaker 2Yeah , it's on their gums when they're teething .
Speaker 1Grandpappy's cough medicine .
Speaker 2Oh yeah , my dad was always . My grandpa was always walking around with a mug full of something . He was drunk all the time . I didn't realize that till I was much older , though yeah , he was great , if it's the normal behavior I loved him .
Speaker 1We had a lot of fun .
Speaker 2Now he did fall off of a ladder once and we had to go to the hospital and now I think he was probably drunk , but anyway , that's a whole other story . Um , are you comfortable with getting a little bit into the villains in babysitters of the apocalypse ? I'm not sure what the spoiler line is with them . Yeah , it's hard , right ? Um , yeah , I mean we can talk a little bit about it . I'll try to be as general as possible , I guess . Yeah , like , uh , because we haven't talked about theo yet and we can't not talk about theo and his really excellent hair in the apocalypse , and his really excellent hair in the apocalypse , which I appreciate , makes her so mad . I would be pissed too , because my hair would be a mess . Oh , so would mine . But I feel like men get away with , like if they've somehow , even if they've only chopped it themselves with left-handed three-year-old scissors , it's still going to look so nice . And I'm just like why is that ?
Speaker 1Thank you , it's not fair gonna look so nice and I'm just like why is that ?
Speaker 2like it's not fair . I really appreciate that compliment , by the way . I just feel like it's not fair . I might do that , though I think if it was the apocalypse , I would chop my hair , yeah same , I'd be short . There's a moment with vicky again . Not gonna say it , but I was like girl , you gotta cut that hair . Yeah , you would have been in that situation if you'd cut your hair yeah , does it ?
Speaker 1does it take a a close call like that ? Or do you think , do you think that people uh recognize that that danger before they get to a zombie grabbing a handful of it ?
Speaker 2I think it depends on how much you're willing to let go of your old identity . There's part of that , I think . I think it's that I do have a scene in my Sundown series where Alex chops all her hair off in a fit of rage because it was dangerous and it made her mad . I think for me it'd be cleanliness right .
Speaker 2Like I have way too much hair and if I'm even able to keep soap with me , depending on what the situation is , how much water it takes to clean your hair . All those things no , I'm chopping it all off . It's not worth it to me .
Speaker 1Yeah , Something that people don't write about enough in apocalypse stories is like lice fleas , you know .
Speaker 2Smelling bad . I love when Gabby tells Vicky she smells bad .
Speaker 1You can always count on a five-year-old .
Speaker 2It's always the kid that's going to say something really crappy and she gets . I love how she gets super indignant every time they get dirty because they've fought zombies . Like little hands on the hips and she's like we don't have clothes for you . Stop it , you're gross . I do appreciate , though , that , amidst all of the chaos that's happening and horrible things that are happening , that there's just the reality of like they've got to figure out how to have showers , how to do laundry , how to get food that's hot and not um canned anymore . Like they felt very real and almost like I'm . Like I guess life would . You'd still have to just do all the regular shit while killing zombies , and you also depict them like you talk with them actually having to go to the bathroom which is a pet peeve of mine , courtney when that just magically never happens .
Speaker 1Like people just don't have to do that story .
Speaker 2Yeah , well , and I feel like with kids especially , um , I think as adults , I mean , of course , toilet paper is a thing , right , like you're gonna want toilet paper , but I think as , but I think as adults , we'll figure it out right , we'll go against a tree , we'll go , you know what I mean ? I mean men again have way easier than women when it comes to this . Like you know , we got to squat and all these things . But when it comes to kids , I remember being that age and my grandma being like you can pee on the side of no , I can't , like it was .
Speaker 2It felt so like just upsetting and I and of course , I learned and I figured it out , and so I think that there's that like just that weird mindset . So , figuring out that they need either some sort of process , you have to make sure that they go pee in the mornings , like they're almost like a dog , I mean , they wake up and they need to empty their bladder , just like , you know , a dog . Yeah , people don't write about it very often and I think not so much just because people ignore the concept , but because it's just the small , mundane things , but I think people do like to read about some of that stuff .
Speaker 1Yeah .
Speaker 2I enjoyed . Like you know , a favorite scene is them figuring out how to wash their clothes and setting that whole thing up the way you describe it , and my favorite location they find , which I also will not say what it is , and yes , I was devastated about what happened next and that's my most fake commentary I can give you right now . You'll have to tell me later , cause .
Speaker 1I'm not sure which one you don't know Okay . The location actually gave me high anxiety . I'm like there's too much visibility here . Oh , I love it , guys we got to go . I was really hoping it would last forever .
Speaker 2Okay . Okay , then I know what you're talking about . I love that location . I thought it was super . I think I know what you're talking about . I loved it . I thought it was unique .
Speaker 1Yeah , I've had unique experiences .
Speaker 2Well , we will have to talk about that offline then , because I want to know so what can you tell us about the villains in Babysitters of the apocalypse , so I can say that at the end of book two you get a much more clear vision . So you guys will get there . About the villain , um , so theo , who's not a villain , right , he's the other , he becomes a main character of the series . Um , theo has a run-in with a cult , and this goes back to what I kind of said about the villain that I wrote in um torment . It's just people looking for some sort of existence , um , that that they're gonna be able to be safe because they can't do it themselves right , so they are willing to follow blindly , and when they do that they end up hurting other people that won't follow blindly and so .
Speaker 2So , unfortunately , theo has had a run in with these people and kind of makes him a target , which in turn makes Vicky and the girls a target . So there's some things that they deal with . It gets a lot deeper in book two . In book one you find out why they're after Theo , like he kind of explains it , but then you hear about it at the end of book one why they won't let go coming after him . And , yeah , people are psycho . So that's kind of what I built around that situation that I will say I'm doing .
Speaker 2So this series , my plan is six books , but it's going to be two separate arcs , and so the arc of this , these villains , is going to close out in the book that I'm writing now , I think that's pretty smart yeah and then . I'm going to . I hope you're imagining the death of a certain person really really like that . That's going to be very satisfying . I think that I , the person that I think to be very satisfying . You'd have to be I , a person that I think you're thinking of .
Speaker 1We'll have to talk about this later I don't actually don't want to tell you . I don't want to tell you , don't tell us , don't tell us . I just it kind of like .
Speaker 2Knowing that your process of writing a villain is to like be real about the sick people that exist on the planet and then enact your own form of vigilante justice just makes me excited , because I know that that's probably coming for this one person , and I look forward to that day . Is it the one person in the second book ? Um , they're mentioned in the first book . Well , now I don't know . Oh , oh , yeah , okay , yes , yeah , and if everybody , if you're wondering , you should just read this book . Yeah , yeah , if you're wondering , you should just read this book . Yeah , yeah , if you know . Um , I also say I think like there were some interesting existential questions that vicky was facing around god and , like you know , very early in the book she's with a priest and a nun right and they're they're like the good side of religion and spirituality . They're good people , they care a lot about the kids and they're so generous and vicky's like why are you being so nice to me ? But also they have a lot about the kids and they're so generous and Vicky's like why are you being so nice to me ? But also they have a lot of deep faith and I you can tell that Vicky is like I don't know about this , and so it was interesting to see you juxtapose , like , some of the beautiful sides of faith and religion with horrifying cult . Yeah , yeah , yeah , no . I think God no-transcript could be a lot of beauty and humanity in that as well . And so Sister Anne and the priest they were people that those are the good people in religion . I think about my godparents , those type of people . I think about the priest that baptized me , who's just a wonderful person , and what these type of people would do . But then there's the other side of it . There's the ugly side of religion , and it's not people that I've ever personally known , the ugly side of religion that people will follow blindly with a faith of something , anything that gives them power or makes them feel explains their existence , and so the cult becomes this thing of this group of people , um , that have created this basis of why this has happened and that they think that they need to do certain things to fulfill their cultish beliefs . And I'm just like this is ugly and disgusting , but I I wanted also to show the humanity and beauty that could come from people that that believe their faith and they treat others with with kindness . So yeah , that was my , my two-sided face on religion in that book .
Speaker 2I think you did a good job of that and also of Vicky being in this place of like , which I think many of us are , and you described for yourself at one point like of waffling , being like I'm definitely praying to God right now , but also I don't know , and then something happens that's good or bad , and is that because I prayed or not ? Or did that get like felt very real ? Um , for just regular life , let alone an apocalypse , and I absolutely think a cult like the one you described would crop up in that kind of scenario , because on a regular day , people like raving , meaning and security , uh , in that context , anything to make that feel a little bit more okay and give you purpose , it's very easy . I won't this is another time , another story but I definitely , uh , almost , joined a cult and I watch cult shows all the time and I would do so . I like not anymore , I think , but anytime under the age of 35 it's not that long ago for me absolutely susceptible to cults , absolutely .
Speaker 2I read , I so I have . I'm in a book club and we read a book that was about a cult . It was a whole thing and the ending of it was so and I can't remember the name of it now , but anyways , the ending of it was so . It made all of us so mad because so many of us were like , how could this person do this and this and this ? Well , one of my girlfriends said that there's some scientific study that says that everybody is susceptible to a cult in some way or form , like everybody has the ability to is susceptible to a cult in some way or form , like everybody has the ability to be susceptible to a cult . And , um , as I watch cult shows , I don't understand it , but like , if someone can , but I'm a disney adult and people call that a cult really so yes , it adds up right .
Speaker 2So , like I , I'm like okay . Well , someone came to me and said uh , you can't go to disneyland every single day of your life , but all you have to do is worship Mickey Mouse . I'm like cool , let's do that . I think that's how that happens .
Speaker 1That's how you get the wristband . You get a free wristband if you worship the mouse ears .
Speaker 2What would the religion , the cult of Mickey Mouse be ? What ?
Speaker 1are the rules . Could you imagine that in the apocalypse ?
Speaker 2Yeah , I feel like it could be like a children's they're wearing the ears , they're all wearing the ears and they're all like crusted and broken .
Speaker 1And yeah , yeah , I could imagine it they start singing the mickey mouse club um theme song no , it would have to be the the small world that ride . It would have to be that I love that very slowly and uh we're all picturing children in this call right now .
Speaker 2Right , because that's what I was picturing adults I was thinking adult I'm picturing like an alternate gabby where , like gabby goes which I think is possible with any kid right like we don't know where gabby's gonna end up as human beings same with tina they're being exposed to some wild shit . So what if gabby creates ? This is I'm now telling you you must write Gabby as a future child cult leader .
Speaker 1You're welcome for all these ideas .
Speaker 2I've actually wanted to write . I haven't figured out quite how to do it yet , because Disney has a lot of legal teams that are very powerful and I don't want to fight with them but I want to write a zombie apocalypse in Disneyland . I just have to figure out how to do it without getting in trouble . Oh yeah .
Speaker 1You might have to make up your own theme park .
Speaker 2Or pitch it to them as a show . Oh right , a Disney show , do they ? They have a zombie show , but it's like some teenage
Cults and Religion After the End
Speaker 2show . Oh , I think we watched the trailer for that and I was like no .
Speaker 1Yeah , I think I forced you to watch it .
Speaker 2And it was bad . And I'm like check this out . It's not our thing , not at all , but they have everything on Disney Plus now because they own Hulu , right , so they have it's all on there . So why couldn't they ? They could .
Speaker 1They could , but will they , and what will it be ?
Speaker 2Yeah , you also are not . You're not just writing zombie , apocalypse stuff . You've written other kinds of apocalypse books and you're working on a thriller . Now , how do you know like what , what inspires you to go in different genre directions ? Oh goodness , people ask me to do it . That's good . Oh , so we're getting , we're getting the mickey mouse cult book . Yeah well , I get really bad with saying no , that's , that is a big problem . I wrote two , two horror novellas this last year for some friends of mine who have a publishing company , and those are actually based on well , sort of based on Disney stories that . So all of the these novellas that we've written that there's seven , seven authors that have written in it so far are based on characters that have come into free market . I think it's called free market , right , they're not copyrighted anymore , whatever it is . So my first one is called Wish and it's based on 1001 Nights Aladdin , not Disney Aladdin . And then my second one is called Steamboat and that is based on Steamboat Willie , right .
Speaker 1I think I remember you talking about this and it sounds absolutely insane it's fun . My paris read them and she's a disney adult with me and she was like these are horrific and I and I can't believe you wrote this what I love is that , uh , is that disney kind of took like these really horrific fairy tales and then made them nice , and then what you're doing is you're turning them back into horror yeah I wish that like I wish some of the other ones , um , that are more horrific are , were free market .
Speaker 2I I'm gonna be doing another one this upcoming year and I'm trying to remember I think it's I'm doing snow white . I think the only thing that's not free market is the dwarves , and so I have to . I have to create something different for that . But it's no white , it's free market . So I'm going to be doing snow white , um , but yeah , so I I did that and that's just because they asked me to , and I was like , okay , cool , this sounds fun .
Speaker 2And then , um , a group of authors got together to do an emp , um , so there's 13 of us and we are all across the world and we've all um taking the same uh emp apocalypse event and writing it in our own ways in different places of the world , and so that's the um . Ravaged skies shared world series . My , my first one is whispers in the dark . Um , it was interesting to write something that didn't have zombies . It was fun , but you come back down to the fact that only the humans are the enemies now . So that was an interesting write . I am going to write some more to that . I just haven't done it yet because I have to finish Vicky's stuff first , yeah we need Vicky .
Speaker 1I started reading one series that was like an E sort of uh sort of event and the whole time like I had to keep on reminding myself that there are no zombies right , so I'm just like . I'm like you can't , you can't just walk out in the daylight like that . What about the zombies ?
Speaker 2I'm like , oh , right , right , yeah that happens to me almost everything we watch . If there's any kind of like ominous vibe , I'm like when where's the zombie ? And I get they , I can just picture where it should happen and I'm always a little disappointed . Yeah , I was trying to write Babysitter of the Apocalypse 3 at the same time as I'm writing this thriller series and it isn't working so well . So I'm trying to focus harder on the thriller to get it done before I finish Babysitter's 3 . Just because the mindset for the two different genres is so vastly different that it was very hard to flip back and forth . The thriller is just . I got asked by some friends of mine who have a publishing company . They have a . It's like it's called Without Warrant and what it is is it's strong female characters that do not have law enforcement background .
Speaker 2And so they asked me if I wanted to write a series under that , and so that's what I'm doing . I wanted to diversify my writing and my business this year , so that's kind of what I've been doing . That's cool . I would read anything you wrote . You sold me on Vicky Vicky's fun . She has to probably be so far , one of my favorite characters , and if you like Vicky , you're going to like my thriller character . I think I told you guys who she is . She's a . She's a stripper .
Speaker 1So yes , she's right , she's fabulous yeah .
Speaker 2I love that I . I love , um anything with a stripper lead , or the movie that's going to come up by tino romero drag queens .
Speaker 1I forget what it's gonna be called , though uh , I think it's , I think it's drag , drag queens of the dead is that what it is ? Oh , queens , really means of the dead .
Speaker 2Yeah , oh , I have to look into that . But thrillers are actually my first love . Uh , I love thrillers , so that will be super fun to actually check out . It's just now . I've been brainwashed to assume that a zombie should be around every corner and every door you open , and when people are loud I get mad .
Speaker 1So I think this podcast has warped my brain .
Speaker 2I also love gore . Now , we didn't even talk about writing gore . How do you feel about writing gore ? I think it's fun . I think I must have some sort of violent streak in my head or something that I don't like realize , because I feel like the gore is the fastest part to write , it is the easiest . The fights cut , they flow so fast , like what I wanted to look like , what it feels like , the smells , the taste , the touch , like I . All of that just flows so fast in my writing process . So , for whatever reason , that's the easiest part to do .
Speaker 2Um , but I do also don't . I don't do it like gratuitously . I think that one of the important parts from my zombie stuff specifically , is that , um , like I've said , like you said before , like zombies are not the main character , and while that is a threat and it does happen , I don't want it to be so like overdone that people are like , ok , like this is unnecessary , yeah , it has to be done enough that it still has impact . If it's constant , it's not yeah . But it is true that the more that I've read and the more that I've watched , the more desensitized I'm becoming , the day that I can look at somebody's eyes getting ripped out or their intestines coming out is when I know I've been fully desensitized . See , you have not been , you're also at that level .
Speaker 1Yeah , I can't no eyeballs I can't do .
Speaker 2Um , my children actually know what they love to torture me by like pulling their
Beyond Zombies: Courtney's Other Projects
Speaker 2eyelids up and stuff . I don't , um , I can't like the worst . They are the worst . And before I I had lasik years ago . Before I had lasik I tried contacts . I can't even do my own , I can't even . I can't do it Like eyeballs for whatever reason . So , like any movies , I think , like Saw probably has a few really good eyeball scenes and I'm just like I look away and freak out . I can't handle it . Yeah , I can't . I haven't watched things like Saw in a long time , but maybe I'm ready . We'll see .
Speaker 1Yeah , I think that like uh , because the newest final destination .
Speaker 2I don't know if you guys want to see that . Yeah , so they . It's funny because I know those movies like the back of my hand . It's just one of those like cult things that you watch all the time and at least I watch all the time , and not everybody does this um , and it's just gotten more and more gory every single installment and , and I think that we are as a just as a species in general , I think we're all kind of getting desensitized to it because it doesn't bother me all that much anymore , unless it's eyeballs . I don't like eyeballs Other than that , pretty much anything I'm like oh , his head exploded , cool . As long as I don't see his eyeballs explode , I'm fine . Yeah , it is . There's something specific about the eyes that feels really vulnerable . Leave your eyeballs out of it . I don't know . And you know what else still gets me Home Alone where he steps on the nail . I can't , oof , can't , can't handle that .
Speaker 1Yeah , there was this group of people that made a little visual effects short film on YouTube and they just wanted to make it over the top and that was the whole idea of it , and they did like a like a headshot , head exploding shot where the head exploded but then the eyes just kind of shot off in different directions and I was just like that was just way too much that was unnecessary , that feels unnecessary but it was also hilarious , so I can't you know they did what they were trying to do I feel like some of that stuff also , that is just funny because it feels like it's too much , and so then it becomes more of a comedy than a horror .
Speaker 2Yeah , yeah , at that point , yeah , like zumbies too that we watched recently . It's just gore to laugh , um . But sadly we have come to the end of this time , which is also how I felt when I ended the book and then realized there was another one that I could keep reading , hence why I I probably wasn't fully paying attention when I heard like , oh , there's a preview or something like that , and so I was like , oh , skip , I'll just go right on to the next one , but now I got to go back .
Speaker 1Sometimes I'll play like the beginning chapter of a book .
Speaker 2Yeah , so I just assumed that's what was happening and clearly skipped the prequel . So I got to get to go back .
Speaker 2We got to we gotta go back , but regardless , really sad that we are at the end of our time with you today . At least Hope to have you back again . Where can people find you and where should they start with reading ? Like , where would you recommend ? I mean , I think it just depends what people like . That's what my pitch always is . If you like prepared people , then read the Sundown series first , and if you like people that aren't prepared whatsoever , start with the babysitter of the apocalypse . We don't sacrifice kids to zombies . Um , you can find me on Amazon . All of my books are almost all of my books are on audible . You can find the sundown series on Spotify and then , um , my website is just wwwcom . Uh , courtney Constantinecom . Uh , constantine was a K , no E at the end .
Speaker 1I know that's difficult to figure out and I'm on the socials like facebook and instagram . Yeah , yeah , and we will have .
Speaker 2The links will be down downstairs in the description area yeah , and this is my official eye to eye via zoom . Apology to you for how many times I've referenced you on the show leading up to having you on it and me being like constantin , constantine , I'm not sure . I'm sorry , courtney , and how ?
Speaker 1about all the times ? How about all the times that you corrected me for saying it's true and you're like it's constantin ?
Speaker 2well , I mean , look , I'll just say it this way in the us language yes , we would think it was constantin , but I have a whole . I can tell you guys off story or off line why it is the way it is . Yeah , I was just English language butchers things , cause also we call foyers foyers . So it's not foyer . No , although it is , it's fine , it's fine . Uh , thanks everybody for joining us on book club . Thank you , courtney , for joining us .
Speaker 1You , I appreciate you having me if you guys wanted to support us , you could give us a rating or review , or both . Um , also give a rating and review to courtney's books . Um , five stars please . Um , if you have less stars than that , then just get out of here . I'm kidding , kidding , do whatever you want , but please , no , don't Just give five stars .
Speaker 1Or you can send us a voicemail . You could just say five stars in the voicemail , if you like . We'll get it Up to three minutes at 614-699-0006 . And you might find yourself on a podcast . If you do that , you might Depends on what you say . I guess If it's horrible maybe not , or maybe , who knows you can sign up for our newsletter . We have a newsletter Link in the description . I'm trying to make it not go to people's spam folders lately . And also you can keep in touch with us on instagram at zombie book club podcast . Um , also we have the brain munchers collective discord . Like I said , the links they're . They're down below . You can find them . They're on every episode . Yeah , um , but thanks for listening everybody . Uh , the end just is just so nigh and you heard it here it's courtney's fault .
Speaker 2Bye , bye , bye , bye , bye . Courtney , thank you for being with us . Bye , thank you .