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Zombie Book Club
Welcome to Zombie Book Club! We're a Podcast that's also a book club! We talk about Zombie / Apocalyptic horror novels, TV and movies.
Zombie Book Club
'The Collapse' with special guest Alice B. Sullivan | Zombie Book Club Ep 112
In this episode, we bring you face-to-face with acclaimed author Alice B. Sullivan, as we crack open The Collapse: Book 0 in her Aftermath series. Alice takes us behind the scenes of how a character backstory written in just three whirlwind weeks during the pandemic became a full-blown prequel, introducing young Sadie and her fearless Yorkshire Terrier, Trooper. Prepare to reframe your assumptions about apocalypse pets—Alice argues small dogs are more than liabilities, they’re surprising survival assets.
We also dig into the ethical trenches: from the ethical dilemma of shielding children from hard truths, to the moral weight of utilitarian “preservation” communities—and why sometimes, protecting what you love overrides survival logic. Plus, Alice teases what’s next in the Aftermath universe. Whether you’re a dog lover, zombie fiction fan, or fascinated by human resilience, this episode will make you reconsider who—or what—you’d save when society collapses.
Guest Contact
- Website: alicebsullivan.com
- Facebook: Alice B. Sullivan
- Instagram: @zombieauthor_alicebsullivan
- Goodreads: author page: Alice B. Sullivan
- Buy Alices Books: Amazon
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I got pepsi on the microphone welcome to the zombie book club, the only book club where the book is a dog and that dog will bark and give away your position. I'm Dan, and when I'm not snuggling my dogs, I'm writing a book about the zombie apocalypse and so far no dogs have died. If the dog dies, we riot.
Speaker 1:I want people rioting in the streets and I'm Leah, and today we are chatting in the flesh with Alice B Sullivan about her zombie apocalypse series. We can't get enough of Aftermath. Alice was born and raised in upstate New York, where she spent way too much time pondering zombie apocalypse scenarios. I don't think that's the case in this room. When she isn't chasing things that go bump in the night, alice is writing about different ways the world could end. But trust us, alice isn't just a killer storyteller with a cast of characters as diverse as the apocalypse demands. She's also so charming that she could talk you right out of your last pair of socks if she wanted to, but she uses her powers for good instead, by helping heal our furry friends as a vet, tech and rehabilitation something, something Mouse rehabilitator.
Speaker 1:Rehab therapist. Thank you, welcome to the show, alice, and welcome to the zombie bunker. Hi guys, happy to be here.
Speaker 2:And by in the flesh we mean Alice is actually here with us.
Speaker 3:Like they kidnapped me. Yeah, we did.
Speaker 2:And you are now underground. Yeah, they fed me french fries.
Speaker 3:That's how they got me yeah, we did, and you are now underground. Yeah, they fed me french fries, that's how they got me here.
Speaker 2:Yeah, 24k, it works every time before we get started, I we've we've talked to a few people from upstate new york at this point. I am a person from upstate new york, you are a person from upstate new York. Damn right and I want to know, because I feel like this is core to my storytelling what is it about upstate New York that makes you imagine a world that is the zombie apocalypse and want to tell a story about it.
Speaker 3:Oh geez, honestly, it might have to do with the fact that we're so close to New Yorkork city and, being near such a big population, it makes you think that if the zombie outbreak ever started, that's probably where it would be and how much of the aftermath would hit us. Also. New york is just, you know, beautiful. We have our country land, because it's not all just new york city. We know that, but we have, like, our country land and our suburbia. So just like thinking about the aspect where there's so many different places to go in the state, because it's such a big state that you could still you could be driving for four hours and still be in New York, but you might be, and then you'd be somewhere closer to where I grew up, exactly.
Speaker 3:Exactly so. You'd be in like and then you'd be in country and then you'd be in city. So I think it's the fact that there's such a diverse situation in the population makes it a good thought process.
Speaker 1:I guess that's pretty true and I don't think the answer you were expecting Dan because you have a very strong bias.
Speaker 2:Especially when you started talking about how it was beautiful. Oh my God, I'm like. When I think about upstate New York, I think dismal and gray. I think most of the year is brown gray and a different shade of gray.
Speaker 3:Okay, and white? Well, your shade of gray could be someone's shade of blue, oh good point.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you're right, there are big blue skies amongst the brown and gray of upstate New York.
Speaker 3:We do have beautiful fall weather.
Speaker 2:It is true, yeah.
Speaker 3:Beautiful autumns.
Speaker 2:I will say though, after living in Vermont, vermont's killing it compared to upstate New York.
Speaker 1:I'd say New York's like sticks.
Speaker 2:Sticks with some orange and Vermont is like behold this beautiful afghan of orange, an afghan of orange.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like an Afghan blanket.
Speaker 2:I was really confused, that's what it reminds me of, like an orange Afghan blanket.
Speaker 1:This is going somewhere strange, alice. Yes, we've got some rapid fire questions for you. Oh God, 40 hour work week or zombie apocalypse, zombie apocalypse.
Speaker 3:Why? Because, fuck, 40 hour work weeks, man, I'm tired. I don't want to pay bills anymore. I'm sick of taxes. I'd rather just, you know, wake up and be like you know what. I know what I have to do, and that's survive. Yeah, yep, yeah, and it's not because I have to make a certain amount of money to pay other people that certain amount of money to get food. It's because I know that there is a single villain and it is a zombie, and I know I have to strive against that. Not that I need to make sure I have the specific amount of money to pay someone else for food or water plus you're a very good forager I am, so that helps yeah, but what if it was the zombie apocalypse?
Speaker 2:and then and then you, you learned, unfortunately, that the other people who survived the zombie apocalypse were like the people who wanted your money. So, like your landlord, the bank, the cell phone company, like what if all those people survived and they're like alice, we want our money like okay, well, alice got eaten by a zombie like two days ago bro good call.
Speaker 2:It's easier to fake your death than the zombie apocalypse now it's these days it's hard to fake your death. Exactly so. But in the zombie apocalypse Now it's these days it's hard to fake your death.
Speaker 1:Exactly so, but in the zombie apocalypse.
Speaker 2:You can just be like I don't know that person I declare deceased.
Speaker 3:You cannot prove me wrong.
Speaker 1:There is one way to fake your death, and it's to get your own teeth replaced with fox teeth. My fox teeth, my specifically, I forgot what that TV show was called. That is so specific Because you can find them on the side of the road.
Speaker 2:There was a TV show. We watched Girls 5 Ever.
Speaker 1:Yes, very great. And this guy wanted to disappear forever, and so he got his teeth removed so that they could find his teeth, and then he replaced his teeth with fox teeth.
Speaker 2:I mean it's fair how you identify people with their dentition, but there's it's because one of the main characters was both a dentist, an oral surgeon Right and an amateur taxidermist and she just happened to have found a dead fox on the side of the road and this guy wanted his teeth replaced.
Speaker 3:The look on Alice's face. So we're just finding things on the side of the road and putting them in our mouth.
Speaker 2:Yeah, watch Girls 5 Ever. It's amazing Girls 5 Ever.
Speaker 3:It's amazing Girls 5 Ever.
Speaker 2:Imagine a girl group like the Spice Girls, but they become really famous and then, like 20 years later, they're not famous anymore, but they want to be famous. But they have lives that they've had since Girls 5 Ever, and that's the show and we're sticking fox teeth in look, when you get to that point, you'll be like, okay, this makes sense, this adds up if you were in your zombie apocalypse of your dreams, alice, we're just.
Speaker 1:This is gonna be so unhinged, this conversation. I love it. If you were in a zombie apocalypse, what would be your weapon of choice?
Speaker 3:oh that, hmm. So I do not know how to fire a gun, which is fine, because ammunition is very scarce in the apocalypse anyway and not everyone just has the correct ammo laying around anyway. So I feel like that would be a moot point regardless. You would just be carrying around a gun for funsies and blunt force trauma maybe if you felt like getting up close. So I'd probably pick a baseball bat. It's lightweight and it's durable and even though I have to get up close and personal, I don't have to get that up close and a good swing to the head can knock them off balance if it doesn't kill them dead.
Speaker 2:So I probably choose like a metal baseball bat yeah, metal one would be great I think you're at a really big advantage if you, if you start in the apocalypse saying I'm going to stick to melee weapons, I'm I'm going to become proficient swinging something especially something blunt yeah, that requires no maintenance whatsoever.
Speaker 3:Well, because, like, people are like, oh, I'm going to get the big guns. Okay, well, can you do a headshot? Because headshots are very difficult on a stationary target, let alone one that's shambling, running, tripping over their feet, because they're uncoordinated and you're panicking. So do you really think you can land a headshot within the magazine that you have? Because I don't think so, because, like, even trained professionals are trained to aim for the bigger part. So, like bodies, because it's, you know, like a torso, because it's center mass.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think you're the first person who said metal baseball bat specifically, and, if I remember correctly, they're also very lightweight, which would be great to carry around.
Speaker 2:Typically they're pretty light. How do you feel about crowbars?
Speaker 3:Well considering, I just tried to pick yours up and Ugh, exactly With that noise.
Speaker 2:I brought my pry bar out for.
Speaker 3:Alice. So crowbars are very good. I do agree it does take some getting used to, obviously, because I'm not used to using this, but it's not only good for blunt force, but good for prying doors, open dumpsters, anything like that. So it's not only good for blunt force but good for prying doors, open dumpsters, anything like that. So it's multi-use, which is a good idea you want to pry dumpsters open yeah, they're good hiding spots, dude. Oh, are you hiding? A good point. There's also food in there in the early, okay, your?
Speaker 1:raccoon. Um, okay, it's called being a freegan alice.
Speaker 3:It's a real way to call it, feral raccoon, but that's fine. So, yes, I think crowbars are a very good choice Because they're multipurpose.
Speaker 2:This one's special. I've talked about my pry bar before Because it's enormous. It's not your typical pry bar. It's big and it's heavy. It's what she said. I wouldn't recommend something that big this is big that's what she said
Speaker 3:um I mean a standard size would be a lot better than this unless, unless you're, unless you are big and strong and beefy like me, but there's also some that are, like, really small I can deadlift like an 80 pound dog, but tell me to pick this mother effing crowbar up and I say oof. So there's where. That's where I'm at. What's a standard size crowbar? What is that thing? What is this thing? It's so cute. Is this standard?
Speaker 2:that's a small crowbar and that is your small crowbar can you describe what you're?
Speaker 3:holding alice, an 18 inch, 46 centimeter stanley wrecking bar, and I. It is so cute you can't forget what's on it.
Speaker 1:I specifically picked it out for you because I know it's one of your favorite colors Yellow Blue oh, blue. Bow oh. The crowbar is yellow. The crowbar is yellow. As our very first in-person podcast guest, we felt that we needed to give you a very important and special gift, so we hope that you accept this offering.
Speaker 3:Even though it's not a baseball bat. I'm sorry, I'm not going to decline a crowbar.
Speaker 2:Cheers.
Speaker 3:I love it so much and I think I could wield this in a zombie apocalypse.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean it's light.
Speaker 1:I definitely want one now. I was having fun with it. We can be crowbar buddies.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we found it this morning and we were like look, how cute this pry bar is.
Speaker 3:This is like perfect, because, like you can just one hand it. Yeah, you just go, yeah, straight through the eye, through the eye. That's where you got to aim through the eye.
Speaker 2:Or through the neck.
Speaker 3:That way you can hold them all like at bay. It won't kill them them unless you aim upwards towards the brainstem. But if you just aim right at the neck just to hold them at bay, it's good.
Speaker 1:Yeah, hold them and then stab them in the head with your knife. Make them stationary so it's better.
Speaker 2:There's just so many things like the claw end, like you're running along in an alleyway. You need to reach up high to grab a fire escape ladder. So you jump up you hook it, you hook it. I mean they're up there high, you gotta jump. Call me short Dan.
Speaker 3:Call me short Dan, just kidding, I'm short, I'm like five foot three, it's fine.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so maybe you need a bigger one, I don't know.
Speaker 3:Size doesn't matter, dan, it's how you use it, and I would still probably miss the fire escape.
Speaker 2:Yeah, maybe, but my point is, it's useful.
Speaker 3:It's very useful.
Speaker 2:It's multi-useful, multi-functional.
Speaker 3:And I have my multi-tool in my car too. So this is perfect I can break into houses. I won't break into houses.
Speaker 1:Disclaimer I actually have plans for you with that and with Rod the zombie upstairs for later.
Speaker 3:Oh my God, that's awesome. That's awesome.
Speaker 2:All right. So you've got one unlimited shelf-stable food item that you can choose. Some weird magic allows you to choose, but you can choose. It's the thing that you're going to eat for the rest of your life. What do you choose? You see, we uh, we have many, many shelf stable foods, but you get to pick. You find like a warehouse okay, yeah what's? What's your unlimited shelf stable food item?
Speaker 3:probably this is gonna sound really odd, but I'd probably go for a fruit, probably either an orange or an apple. I don't really like citrus that much, but I'd still probably choose an orange, just because not only is it good for you and it gives you vitamins and nutrients, it also acts as a beverage too, and you can also use it for compost, that is multi-purpose, but is it shelf stable?
Speaker 1:You said it was, it comes in a can.
Speaker 2:I didn't say it was. That's not how it works. I don't just. I don't have the magic to make fruit shelf stable. That is a good point, but there is like drop, yeah, I did imply it was.
Speaker 1:There's canned oranges yeah like little cans of mandarins.
Speaker 3:Do you want me to pick something else?
Speaker 1:No, no, this is going to be our next chop challenge.
Speaker 2:Oh nice, so moldy, oranges.
Speaker 1:No, they're canned oranges.
Speaker 2:Canned. I don't think I've ever had canned oranges.
Speaker 3:You can, can everything. Dan Little tiny canned. They're so cute, they're like little slices.
Speaker 2:But you know what? I have had oranges that were covered in chocolate, and I'm pretty sure that they lasted a long time are you sure?
Speaker 1:I don't know. I'm gonna just come out and say I mean this might be controversial. I don't like chocolate covered oranges.
Speaker 3:I think it's fucking disgusting that's crazy I'm we're gonna have to agree to disagree well, no, I don't like chocolate on top of my orange, but I like orange with a hint of what? Wow chocolate. No, I want chocolate with like the hint of orange.
Speaker 1:My favorite is chocolate with raspberry it does um make me think that maybe we should dip all of our food in chocolate and seal it that way with the chocolate kind of like a wax seal and like cheese I hate to break it to you, but it won't work because um a very, oh, my god, there's something in my eye well, welcome to the recording yeah, that's what actually happens, but having gone on many, many interior camping trips, I really can't see you very well. This is what I'm learning.
Speaker 2:You're not missing much. It's fine. This is gonna be so hard to piece together let it be everybody.
Speaker 1:I have an eyelash in my eye. That's what's really happening right now. Um, but I've been on many a camping trip an interior camping trip for canoeing many days, and one of the most important things you bring is gorp. Do you know what gorp is? No, no, good old raisins and peanuts is what it technically is. It's raisins and peanuts you take with your camping trips yes, okay, but gorp is the canadian saying.
Speaker 1:But uh, the version of gorp that we would do would be like all candy, basically. But I learned the hard way that the chocolate melts and then fucks up everything else. Yes, because again, chocolate and like a sour patch kid is not good oh yeah, what are the sour patch kids doing in there?
Speaker 1:they're well I would be a combination of sour patch kids, chocolate covered almonds, um, those little sour watermelons, the peaches, all those kinds of candies, and then I would throw in some nuts and seeds and so the almonds melted and it was healthy, like the chocolate yes, the chocolate will melt and fuck everything up, oh yeah.
Speaker 2:Well that sounds horrible you could pickle things.
Speaker 3:It sounds, it sounds horrible.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Just just like all, all of all of those gummy things together with peanuts and raisins alone Sounds awful and like it doesn't. It doesn't need to be, it doesn't? It doesn't? The chocolate doesn't need to melt for that to be an awful combination of things. I think that you should just have nuts, raisins, dried fruit, maybe some dehydrated banana slices, some almonds you're just ruining it, though and M&M's. It was tastier before ask the next question because I'll still be able to hear you.
Speaker 1:I'm going to go over there and try and take this out okay, why don't you do that?
Speaker 2:and then we'll continue, but it's an eye drop, yeah.
Speaker 1:I think there's like literally a hair in that. This leads me to the last rapid fire question I want to ask you today. We'll have more for the future. Okay, the love of your life is my dog oh boy oh no, I think we just stepped in it do we keep asking the question do you let them bite you, do you put them down out of their misery, or do you let them go, just go be a zombie dog?
Speaker 3:so if it was a human, I would ask them what what they wanted me to do, because I think it's important to take them into consideration instead of my own feelings this is what I I mean by.
Speaker 1:Alice is a very nice person.
Speaker 3:So some people want to know how zombies live. Some people don't want to turn into the zombie you know what I mean and some people would rather you live on and not worry about them. So if it was a human, I would ask them what they wanted me to do, and I would respect their wishes. Since the love of my life is a dog, I would know that she would want me to keep going and she would want me to be safe at all times, and if she knew that she was putting me at risk, that wouldn't make her happy, so the best thing I would have to do is say goodbye. I'm so sorry, that's okay. That's okay. I'm so sorry, that's okay. It makes sense, though. I mean, your dog wants you to be safe and protected, and if she knew that she couldn't protect you from herself, the only way to do that is say goodbye.
Speaker 1:It's true. The only other viable option is to just let them bite you and you can be zombies together forever.
Speaker 3:That's very true, but when I'm mindless, I wouldn't be able to recognize her and I don't think that I would be able to live not knowing that I was recognizing my dog so you've written a lot of books.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you've written so many. How many books have you written?
Speaker 3:oh, geez, I have to do math in my head yeah, we're asking you to do math oh my gosh, I'm a vet tech. I'm not a mathematician. Uh, one, two, three, four. What am I? Some kind of a math scientist, right? I'm not an engineer, dan. One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, seven right books, wow yeah, that's, that's a couple short stories and how many of them are the aftermath series?
Speaker 3:uh, so two are in the main aftermath series. So I have the collapse, which is book zero, and I have yesterday is gone, which is book one, and then I have two supplemental companion stories return, which is a novelette, and destination tomorrow, which is a novella the collapse is book zero of the aftermath, then yes, um, that's what I read this last week.
Speaker 2:Yes, same yeah and um, and this is like, uh, I what I love. I love a book zero because, like it's, it's all the questions that you have in a book one. Um, that was the point. It's the like. Like this is this is for the people who want to know, want to want to know some answers.
Speaker 1:Yes, uh what you don't know is happening right now is alice is very aggressively using the crowbar to express your opinions, waving it around, pointing at us. I have to do something with my hands, intimidating honestly, um, yes, so to go off of that.
Speaker 3:So the reason why it's book zero is it plays on patient zero, which you find out. Patient zero in the book, like you did so, is the zombie outbreak scenario.
Speaker 1:Um, and it tells the backstory of my main character and the virus and the apocalypse itself, but it was more so a planned patient zero, and how the outbreak starts I don't think I've ever actually read a patient zero, um like breakdown of how things got started in the way that you did the collapse, and I really enjoyed it, thank you. Uh, to see what was happening behind the scenes and the people responsible, yes, and then also to follow someone as they got infected, and that whole journey was super fun, yes yeah, that was fun to write.
Speaker 3:Like I like the different point of view is because the main point of view is first person but the tell of the outbreak is through third person point of view so you mentioned to us that the collapse wasn't meant to be necessarily.
Speaker 1:You hadn't planned on writing it, so how did it become a book?
Speaker 3:so I had the story of the Aftermath series in my head for like a decade, um, I just never felt like I was a good enough writer yet. So instead I did short stories, I did like microfiction, all that stuff, um. But I knew that this is a story I wanted to eventually tell. I knew my characters, I knew their backstories, um, and I was living down in Texas at the time, and when I moved back up it was during COVID, so like I couldn't get another job right then and there. So I had a lot of free time and just like one morning I was like you know what I need to write? And so I just started writing Sadie's backstory, and at first the collapse was through Sadie's point of view.
Speaker 2:Oh, oh, wow, yes, as like a seven-year-old girl who's the character in the Aftermath series.
Speaker 3:Yes, the main character in my Aftermath series. So she's seven years old in the Collapse and at first it was told through her point of view. But then I was like this is very limiting and not as big of a scope as I wanted it to be. So I thought whose point of view could give me and the reader just the scope of things, and I was like you know what I'll do her mother. So I had to had to rewrite everything. That was great.
Speaker 3:I had to rewrite everything from karen's point of view, but having sadie in it and doing her experiences with it, because, you know, parents want to protect their children, shield their children. They're worried their children won't understand what's going on. They don't want to protect their children, shield their children. They're worried their children won't understand what's going on. They don't want to scare their children. They kind of keep them ignorant on purpose. And while you're reading the collapse I'm not sure if you picked up on it, but you could I was hoping that you could see sadie's frustration with the fact that every time she asked her parents a question she just got oh it's okay, it'll be fine, nothing's wrong.
Speaker 3:And at one point sadie just stops answering, gets up and walks away. Yeah, at certain points. So you could see the frustration. Even though she's seven years old, she still sees things happening. So I I wanted to still show sadie's experience with the outbreak, but from a point of view that could, that could give the scope that I wanted to give, which was karen's point of view. And then, when I was done, I was like you know what, I'm just gonna publish this for fun. And so I wrote it in three weeks whoa what? And yeah, so fun fact. Um, when I sent it to my editor which they're awesome, I love them, been working them, like with them for years they really only changed like comma placements. So commas will be the death of me.
Speaker 2:They were like you got to take this out, I was like no, Pry my comma out of my cold, undead fingers.
Speaker 3:I want it there. And they're like it doesn't work there. I was like fine, You're the professional, I'm just the author.
Speaker 2:Here you are with your college education Exactly Understanding of the English language.
Speaker 1:Dang punctuation. I wonder if she was team Oxford comma or not.
Speaker 3:Yes, I was, there was a comma I love, I'm team Oxford comma too there's a comma. So yeah, so fun fact, like technically, the only things that really changed in the collapse between me writing it and me giving it to the my editor was just a bunch of comma placements, wow.
Speaker 1:Three weeks Did you just go into a hole and not eat, drink or sleep?
Speaker 3:No. So I, my body, hates me. So I would wake up between like five and 6am, right Cause I'm used to waking up to take care of horses, cause you know they have to eat at the ass crack dawn for whatever ungodly reason. So my body, after moving home from Texas, was still used to that. So I would wake up, make myself my cup of coffee, because I can't live without it, and I would find a way in the apocalypse, I swear to God, I'd find a way to get my coffee and I would just sit down at the table and I would just write, write, write, and then I would take some breaks to eat, hang out with my sister, and then every morning I just wrote and wrote until I was done.
Speaker 2:I wish I did something useful during COVID.
Speaker 3:You existed. That's pretty useful. Well, you know what?
Speaker 2:We moved, we did. Yeah, I was In the middle of COVID.
Speaker 3:Yeah that's useful.
Speaker 2:Leah was working hard. I was packing a U-Haul.
Speaker 3:There you go so poorly. You gotta be good at.
Speaker 1:Tetris, he was not what you just heard. There was Alice with the crowbar, sorry, hitting the microphone.
Speaker 3:Dan just made me really mad by saying he did it poorly, he did. I got really upset.
Speaker 2:I did what I felt was a good job, and then Leah did a better job after.
Speaker 1:But you know what?
Speaker 2:I got the bulk of it in there.
Speaker 1:I'm not commenting, it was a nightmare. The biggest thing that will test a relationship is moving. I think, yeah, I believe that, true, I'm proud of us.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know, you touched on something that I think a lot of people who become writers feel, which is like not knowing when you're a good enough writer to write your book, like not feeling like you're good enough. What was, what was it like dealing with that? Like what? Like you, you said that you just decided to do it. Um, like what, what made you decide that you were good enough?
Speaker 3:so, since the thank you, thank you, um. So since the collapse was never really meant to be anything but a backstory, I think I lost all the imposter syndrome because I didn't have any expectation for it. But with yesterday's gone and the aftermath in general, I have. I had this expectation because I wanted it to be the story that I told I wanted to be as perfect as it could be. Because I wanted it to be the story that I told I wanted it to be as perfect as it could be, because I wanted to do my characters justice. I wanted to give my readers a good experience, feel all the things that I feel when I think about it.
Speaker 3:So, because the collapse was never meant to be, I kind of let go of all those expectations and I was like you know what, I'm just going to write it and whatever happens happens. And at the end of it I liked it a lot, to the point where I would reread it and I'd be like, oh crap, I wrote this and I was like surprising myself and like I had really good, like positive feedback from beta readers and advanced readers, and so I was like you know what, I'll just publish this. So, even after I published that, I still did not believe I was good enough to write Yesterday's Gone and I went through a lot of imposter syndrome with that story and that's why it took me so long to write that book, even though it was the book I had in my head for like 10 years. It was tough yeah.
Speaker 2:It was tough. I think that when you do let go of the pre-context of needing it to be good in my experience that's when I've always done my best. When I say in my brain I'm going to write some absolute horse shit, that's when magic flows from my fingers and all the words just come onto screen and I'm like I I meant to write something terrible and it's actually pretty good.
Speaker 3:Well, yeah, cause like you stop like it's not, like you stop caring, but you stop hindering yourself, so you don't hold back and you kind of just let go and let the words flow. I think that's the best thing you can do for yourself, because if you just sit there and you think about a single sentence for like an hour, then you only thought about a sentence for an hour, when you could have written so much more. If you just wrote, even if you think it's horse crap at the end of it, at least you wrote something and it can be edited.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you can always fix it in the edit.
Speaker 1:Exactly, and I think that's where a lot of new writers get caught up with is they just keep on rewriting what they've already written rather than moving forward hey so I know I was like, damn, maybe you need a collapse version, like a thing that you're just gonna write and not care I think that's what I already wrote I mean?
Speaker 3:well, because before, like technically before the collapse, I wrote my short story, unraveled for like this Reddit short story competition and by the end of it I loved it and I was offering it for free online and stuff like that and I didn't really take it seriously because it was just a short story competition, but it was just one of those things where I didn't really have any expectation for it, so it came out easily and I got it done immediately. So I just think that we put so much pressure on ourselves with certain things that we get lost.
Speaker 1:And it's a really great story and, like I said, like I understand that originally when you were writing it you were just kind of explaining for yourself, yes, the history of Sadie, which no spoilers. It's traumatic, folks. You're welcome. I may or may not have texted uh, alice, after reading and being like I can't believe you just did that. I am upset, but also I'm extra excited for my um the dead or rising t-shirt with the picture of trooper on the back. So you knew that sandy was going to be one of your main character, like the main character for aftermath. But there are some other important characters in the collapse that set us up for the collapse. Do you want to tell us a little bit about?
Speaker 3:them. So in terms of like her family and All right, yeah, so not sure how much I can totally say without giving some spoilers, but we have her mom, we have her dad and we have her puppy, trooper, and trooper plays a big role obviously not only is she?
Speaker 3:like the goodest girl. Obviously she's this yorkshire terrier that her mom and her dad got her for her seventh birthday, which makes the collapse a little bit more traumatic because her birthday was literally like the month before you're welcome, um. So you know, we have her dad, who's a stay-at-home dad, we have her mom who works for big pharma, so medicine, vaccines, all that stuff, um, and the whole point is, you know, they have some things they did in their past they're not proud of, but they're moving forward. They're trying to be this happy nuclear family, which they are happy. There's really no lie about it. There's no smoke and mirrors. They are a loving, happy family. Gerald and Karen love each other very much. They're very supportive of each other.
Speaker 3:Does dive into the territory of not trusting your daughter's reactions to the truth and just keeping them ignorant, which you see in the next book how that affected sadie so much growing up in the apocalypse, um, so we do have karen and gerald, who do play a big part in how everything sort of happened to the family itself.
Speaker 3:Unfortunately, jared uh, jared, wow, g Gerald plays a center role with how the ending happens, unfortunately, but they do try their best as Sadie's parents and they both had Sadie's best interests at heart, even though they were at war with each other a little bit on the decisions that were made. But then you also have Todd Evans, who is their friend and the a cop of their city. So they live in wake forest, north carolina, and todd is kind of relaying the information to them about the outbreak and everything that's happening. Um, so todd has his own family which you only hear like mentions of, but todd still plays a very vital role in the collapse with relaying information to karen and gerald about what's going on in the outbreak. And then you have, like our scientists who did all of this, unfortunately, the good guys.
Speaker 1:I mean frank eastman did try his best, okay yeah, he just one of them's, not a good guy, he just made some errors, errors along the way, you know, he tried his best.
Speaker 3:So Frank is one of the scientists that do try to make things a little bit better, but along the way he makes an error and because of that error it kickstarts the apocalypse. And then you see that through the third person point of view, his story with the other scientists involved and his error, how it caused the outbreak from this animal to this person who is patient zero. So you'll get patient zero demise, unfortunately too I really enjoyed that part.
Speaker 1:Maybe I wasn't as emotionally attached to them so I was like, yes that's fine.
Speaker 3:You're not really I'm enjoying.
Speaker 1:I'm enjoying this. I can't say very much about how it happens without spoiling it, but it was a fun journey and um it also. I've seen maps from the class before for you and I was like, oh, I could like picture in my head.
Speaker 3:Yeah, um, thinking about the map, how it goes from point a to point b along the east coast things, yeah as they're getting sicker and sicker, yep.
Speaker 1:Um, I'm curious to hear, like, more about the theme around trusting children to know, or be able to understand, what's going on. Um, why was that an important lens for you as sadie?
Speaker 3:so I used to work with children. I was a teacher's aid for three-year-olds and four-year-olds and I worked as an after-school supervisor for three-year-olds to 13-year-olds. So I feel like a lot of people don't lend enough credit to children. They think that children just don't understand, they won't understand, they will overreact, underreact, or it's just better to keep them ignorant, and I don't really believe in that.
Speaker 3:I know a lot of people do and from my own experience I've been kept ignorant from my loved one, which is fine. They try to protect you in their own way. There's nothing wrong with that. So in Karen's case, gerald didn't want to keep Sadie ignorant, but Karen was very adamant about shielding Sadie from what was going on. So I just think that when things do happen, you have to trust your children to at least understand to a certain degree. You don't have to tell them everything, but in terms that they'll understand, so they know how to keep themselves safe and to report things to you if they see something. That's weird, because there is a point in the collapse where Sadie sees this man quote unquote in her rindle and she doesn't know what's going on and she freaks out.
Speaker 1:Which is riskier to her to not know.
Speaker 3:So because she doesn't know what's going on if she sees, like, if a kid sees a stranger, that this is a zombie apocalypse scenario. So if they see a stranger, that's an actual zombie, they don't know, they don't know to stay away. So I just think that keeping kids ignorant isn't always the best course of action, because as long as they know a little bit of something, they'll understand. Kids aren't as like, their mind isn't as immature as we think they are.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and knowledge is power. I learned that from GI Joe.
Speaker 1:Exactly, and as a former kid, I agree. I may not have children, but I remember what it was like to be a kid and to have a sense of things that were going on in my home.
Speaker 3:But everyone's just like lying to you, but being deliberately left out of it, yes, yeah.
Speaker 1:Being lied to and I remember even saying to my parents at one point like I know what's happening, without giving too much of my own story away. I just was like I know what's happening, I don't know why, or so, um. So I really felt that frustration from Sadie and I was very glad that she had her dog. Well, I was having a trooper in the story, something that you were like absolutely have to have a Yorkshire Terrier so when I was 10 years old, I asked Santa Claus for a pet.
Speaker 3:I had been asking Santa for a pet for a very long time and all I got were like stuffed animals or this for real kitty that me out, even though it didn't have batteries in it. So that was scary. Um still loved it and I treated it good in case it was haunted. Um, but when I was 10, santa finally brought me a Yorkie named Bella. I named her Bella. She was, she was a senior, and I think that's where my love of senior dogs and senior animals in general came about. I loved her. She was my best friend until I was 18.
Speaker 3:I had to say goodbye to her, unfortunately, but I've just grown up with Yorkshire Terriers. So my mom's bosses, they used to have an army of Yorkies and I just wanted an army of Yorkies ever since then. Just like, seven or eight Yorkies running around. That was magical. I wanted that, so like. And then my sister also got a Yorkie from Santa and I was like I want a Yorkie, why can't I have a Yorkie? And they were just like there's something about them, I just find them. They're sweet, they're spunky, they're just magical dog that I just I can't get enough of. So after I had to say goodbye to Bella, who was my heart dog at the time growing up, I found a new friend. Her name is Scout. She is the love of my life that you made me kill off, unfortunately, I'm really sorry.
Speaker 1:That is fine. I forgive you. I love how you say that it's fine, but I know it's not fine.
Speaker 3:I forgive you. So Scout is a senior pup now. I've had her for 13 years around there and I just knew that in the zombie apocalypse she would be my zombie apocalypse partner. No doubt she is spunky. She would protect me at all costs. She even though she isn't big and scary, you know, she would still alert me if I needed to be alerted. She would distract, she would fight someone who tried to hurt me. So I just think that having a Yorkie in my books just meant a lot. So I based Trooper off of Scout. I just think it means a lot, because a lot of people don't give credit to little dogs. They have a lot of spunk and Yorkies are just this magical dog for me and they just make me happy.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I like a dog that you can pick up and take with you Exactly, and if you need to get the hell out of Dodge, you pick that motherfucker up and you go. You can't do that to a Doberman.
Speaker 2:You don't have to like bargain with it, you know. Tell it what to do, you just grab it.
Speaker 3:You're like we're leaving now. We're leaving, yeah we outie scoutie.
Speaker 1:Meanwhile, the other day, nero literally sat his ass in front of that door right there and wouldn't let me leave because he's a big boy and he was like I'm not I know you're gonna lock me in here because there's construction people in the house and I have you're locked in here with me, that's how I pictured him laughing. I will admit that I was a. I did have a bias against little dogs and little dogs, if you're listening. I'm really sorry. I'm sorry for the way that you were discriminated against including by me in the past.
Speaker 1:I don't know why. I think I just always had big dogs. But I have now had enough experience with little dogs to realize they have their own special place and value, and I love some of the artwork that you've made or you've had made of Trooper and Sadie together.
Speaker 3:It's adorable.
Speaker 1:In fact, you got us these really awesome T-shirts. You'll see pictures of them with this episode of Trooper. Is this actually a picture of Scout?
Speaker 3:No, it was. I couldn't get her to sit and do a good photo with me. Unfortunately, every time I take out the camera she runs away, unless she has like a sock in her mouth, I don't know why so I just uh, that's a png that I found online that I was like this is trooper this is exactly trooper.
Speaker 1:It is very cute and I think, what's great, um, and very helpful for those of us animal lovers who love to read. Some zombie look. Totally fine with people dying, but when an animal dies, not okay, absolutely you should know, uh, that on the back of this shirt for the aftermath series it says if trooper dies, we riot and the dog will never die dog in any of your series.
Speaker 2:Hashtag the dog never dies invincible dog yes, invincible dog, yep so you are safe from the trauma of dogs little dogs are fast, they can outrun a horde.
Speaker 3:They can weasel their way through a horde better than and don't get me wrong, I love all dogs. They can weasel their way through a horde a lot easier than a bigger dog can. They can get into small spaces that zombies can't get your extra terriers were bred to be mousers, so they hunt snake mice rats that's what they were bred for Could get you your next meal Exactly.
Speaker 2:So maybe that is your food source. Your shelf-stable food source is all the snakes and rats that your Yorkie brings home.
Speaker 1:Again not shelf-stable.
Speaker 2:I was going to say, yeah, it's as shelf-stable as oranges are.
Speaker 3:Canned oranges Dan Are we?
Speaker 1:on can rats, now Ew Can snake. I don't know why this discussion is giving me so many childhood flashbacks Cause I'm also remembering going to a family reunion and somebody brought a jarred snake. It was like a pickled jarred snake.
Speaker 3:No no no, they were. They were eating it.
Speaker 1:It was like a jar, yeah, of their pet. No, no, no, they were eating it. Oh, it was like a jar, yeah, it was pickled, quite a large jar and there was snake in there and they're like do you want some?
Speaker 2:And I was like no, you want some pickled snakes.
Speaker 1:I don't want pickled snake. Maybe that's why I don't love pickles.
Speaker 2:Oh, maybe it all makes sense, Because you're like no, it tastes like snakes.
Speaker 1:Yeah. What does a snake taste like? I don't know, because I have not eaten one. Neither have I. I've picked up a rattlesnake before, though I know Daryl Dixon also eats snake, so like it's a thing. Well, good for him.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, yeah, he had a pink snake Again in the apocalypse, I would eat a snake, I think. I'd rather just go hungry. Your limit is yeah, I think that's okay. I wouldn't be able to hunt. I'd be like, no, you deserve to live more than I do. Oh, I would just be out there foraging pretty much, yeah, or maybe I don't. I don't, I wouldn't need a bug. I'd feel too bad.
Speaker 1:I'm a terrible person no, you're just gentle and kind and love all creatures. That's terrible. Uh, sadie goes on to be in your other books, moving into the series. Not all of them, but many of them, yes, what is it about sadie that maybe we should know? Um, going into the series like, what is it about her that you love? Uh, what can you tell us about the future of her experiences in the aftermath, without giving too much away?
Speaker 3:so with sadie as a character, she has gone through a lot. She has her faithful dog, trooper Pause Hero.
Speaker 1:Ready. What was happening?
Speaker 3:Nipples.
Speaker 1:Tell us more about Sadie and where we can see her going in the next couple of books.
Speaker 3:All right. So you know, a lot happened to sadie in the collapse and as the series goes forward we see how she grows up in the apocalypse and adapts to the events that happened in the collapse. Um, so, based on her experiences, without spoiling the book, it kind of shapes her into the person she is. So in Yesterday's Gone she is in this community and she wants to be nothing but helpful and help her community. She doesn't want to be someone that needs to be saved, and you reading the collapse would know why she doesn't want to be someone who needs to be saved. She wants to be useful. She doesn't want to feel like she's a burden and because of that it motivates her to be sort of someone who is perfect. But she can't be perfect because nobody's perfect. And because of that mindset it gets her into a lot of trouble in Yesterday's Gone because she tries to be someone that is kind of out of reach for anybody because nobody's perfect.
Speaker 1:One might say she has attachment issues from what happens in the collapse she has, yes, so she has.
Speaker 3:So she has guilt, she has regret, she has all these emotions that she technically shouldn't even feel. But you know, we're human, we're irrational and we can't help it. So, because of all these emotions, where it takes her is making decisions that she shouldn't really be making in the, in yesterday's gone, which kind of sets a lot of things in motion. Anyway, for yesterday's gone.
Speaker 3:So in the rest of the series you see her sort of evolve into the person that she wanted to be, realizing that she never really wanted to be that once she achieves it or if she achieves it and then her moving past it and all of this guilt and regret that she might have to become who, who she was just always meant to be in the first place.
Speaker 3:So she just kind of see her character growth, um, based on the events from the collapse and where it takes her in the series. Because she does have her morals, she does have her ethics, and those morals and ethics also get her into trouble later in the series. So she does have sort of a big character arc.
Speaker 1:That isn't the best, but that's the point a flawed character is the best character because you can see them grow. Yeah, and she's seven in the collapse. How old is she?
Speaker 3:and yesterday's gone so she's 18, so there's a decade time jump. Yeah, like I said, the class was never supposed to happen. Um, it was just supposed to start with yesterday's gone. But because I had the collapse happen, there was the decade jump between the collapse and yesterday's gone. But I do plan to write a book between the collapse and yesterday's gone. But I do plan to write a book between the claps and yesterday's gone to showcase the events in between those books a 0.5 yes, that's exactly what it will be.
Speaker 3:It'll be aftermath 0.5 or aftermath one half that's actually that's a fun name.
Speaker 1:Aftermath one half yeah yeah it'll be that after.
Speaker 2:After half, after half, yeah, I got a little bit of a taste of book one at the end of the collapse and, like the collapse, definitely really it geared me up for like the very big shift in like different stories between the two. Yes, because like what little I got to experience, I'm like, oh, this is a different kind of story. Yes, and now things are going to get real in this story.
Speaker 3:Yes, so in yesterday's I mean, things were real in the collapse, but yeah, but in a different way though. Sadie was left out of it till the right bitter end yeah, and then everything kind of came crashing down at her and then in the and yesterday's gone. You realize how much that affected her as a person. Yeah, yeah. So that's why I love zombie books.
Speaker 1:This is another great example of like a zombie book that I think touches on what it really means to be human and like common experiences of childhood trauma and then trying to figure out who you are. Growing up, um, and realizing at some point like, oh shit, I have been impacted by what happened to me and that is shaping my choices maybe not for the good, it sounds like in her case, so I'm really curious to see how that follows her so at some point you know you do realize that what you faced as a kid affects you regardless.
Speaker 3:But then at some point you also realize that you don't have to be the worst part of it. You can come out better. So Sadie kind of is in that weird in between and yesterday's gone. She wants to be useful. You know she doesn't want to be useless and because of that wants to be useful. You know she doesn't want to be useless and because of that it kind of sets a lot of things in motion.
Speaker 3:So like moving forward in the series you sort of see her climb with her ethics and morals and her need to be someone that she thinks she has to be, but then it kind of devolves into someone that the apocalypse expects her to be. And then she realizes I can just be whoever the fuck I want to be. I don't have to be defined by my past. I don't have to be defined by the apocalypse that I grew up in. I can just be. But it just it takes her a wild ride to to get there and that's why there's three books plus the collapse. So zero, one, two and three, so four books total in the aftermath main series you know something.
Speaker 2:That kind of uh rings as interesting is like how much, how much things tend to be parallel with the real world. So like I'm seeing this story of a young person who's coming of age during this very, uh, strange time. But like also in the in the collapse, we see the beginning, where some big event happened that changed the world, and then growing up in that post, changing the world event into a sort of apocalyptic, dangerous, uh landscape where you are now expected to be an adult and find yourself, but also in this world where it's like, hey, everything's fucked.
Speaker 3:You know, kind of like when the book came, when you were writing pretty much, yeah, during everything was shut down yeah thing was kind of you know, up in the air, things were going to hell and you're just like I don't know what to do. I'm just gonna sit home and watch it all fall.
Speaker 2:That's essentially what it was just watch it either rise or fall and like so many people of this time can definitely relate to that, I think, because, like we've had so many, yeah, so many collapses millennials just living through their third.
Speaker 3:Everything right?
Speaker 2:it doesn't and actually I mean, in this world it's just one collapse yeah, pretty much yeah pretty much.
Speaker 1:In other words, it's better in say these in some ways, I think maybe it is well, and it's.
Speaker 3:It's funny because in yesterday is gone every. Even though everything is post-apocalyptic, there are still some advancements. So they have, um, blood tests, they have decontamination chambers, they have simulations to train people who go out into the field. You know, so sad with her community there's two sets of people called station hands and station heads. So station heads are kind of like the quote-unquote cops of the community and then the station hands are a step below the heads, so they're not as high up Like deputies. Pretty much, yeah, and Sadie is doing her best to be a station hand, um, but you know there is someone who doesn't really want her to be up there because, like they're worried that if she's going to go out into the field she's going to get hurt.
Speaker 3:She's not ready yeah, they want to shield her there's a lot of doubt and again sadie's dealing with more doubt and someone trying to shield her and she already had to deal with that it's just more and more on her. It's just making her push back even harder. So, like they have simulations to help the station heads and hands um before they go out into the field. They set up like these fake scenarios where you know what you would do. So they use they do have firearms, but if they don't need to use their firearms, they use air guns. So they have their air pistols, air rifles with uh bolts, oh, so it's cuts down on the need for ammunition. They're not sorry, I keep on hitting this thing they keep they, they, they're more quiet.
Speaker 3:So the only time that you really turn arrows into ammo and like bullets, like bolts into bullets, is if you cannot reload your bolt fast enough to kill the next goner or vector. So they do have. They carry a firearm and an air gun on them at all times and they're only authorized to use their air gun unless otherwise. So there are moments in the scenario where shit hits the fan by accident and they have to switch to their actual pistols. But there's contingency plans set in motion in the simulations to make sure that no one gets hurt. So, like, everything is kind of like.
Speaker 3:For example, like all the zombies, goners have their teeth taken out, so there's no real risk of them biting you. Taken out, so there's no real risk of them biting you. There's hidden guns set up with people in the walls to shoot the, the goners if they get on top of you and you can't get away. There's trap doors. There's just scenarios where, if shit hits the fan in that simulation, you're gonna be fine. It's just to kind of train you to expect the unexpected, essentially because that's what the outside world is and that's what the hands and heads are supposed to be doing is they have to protect this community of people, and so they go out and they do like their perimeter checks. If there's an outbreak or if they're like one of an outpost gets overrun, they're the first to go out and take care of it.
Speaker 1:Is this a community of leaders that we can trust? Yes, that's nice. I think that's another example of what it's kind of become a trope in zombie fiction, and it's one we, many of us, love, and I love. But it's nice to have a change of like. The community is corrupt, right? The community leader is corrupt. Um, in the case of the collapse, the parents suck, particularly the dudes suck. We were joking earlier about how like it's surprising that gerald is a guy, a white guy, that we like.
Speaker 3:Um stay at home.
Speaker 1:Dad that just wants to play games with his daughter yeah um, and I think that that's that was an interesting choice that you made. That is different from a lot of zombie fiction yeah, so there are three hits, three station heads.
Speaker 3:So, um, I'm not going to say their names because I don't want to spoil anything technically, but there's three station heads, but one of them is the whole leader of the community. His name is kelvin. He is technically a good guy. He is one that does all the trading for the community. So he'll go off on his own and do his own sort of bidding with other communities and he'll bring back resources and supplies.
Speaker 3:There is like something going on with kelvin that you aren't aware of in yesterday's gone, but you will find out later in the series as a whole. He's not a bad guy. All the leaders do whatever they can to protect each other, protect the hands, protect the community. Of course, bad things always happen. Things have to kick the series off, right? You got to kick everybody's ass to get the series going, so obviously something happens. But my leaders as a whole, they'll do anything they can to protect the community. There's no corruption in the sense that they treat their community like crap because they're in power or anything like that that's really refreshing, honestly, because I want to have hope in the apocalypse, including our own right now.
Speaker 1:I want to have hope that there are good people who can be in positions of leadership and not um abuse that power yeah.
Speaker 3:So there are definitely groups like that in Yesterday's Gone or in Aftermath in general, and Sadie does touch on it. You don't really meet them in Yesterday's Gone because Sadie's world is just her community. So it's a community called Clinton and it takes place in Nassau, new York, but they rename it Clinton once they save the town and get rid of all the goners and stuff. So her whole world is just Clinton. She hasn't been out of it. As soon as she got there she stays there and she just knows of these other places because people come in and out of Clinton and they tell her stories. She hears it from the leaders that these other places they're called preservations, so their whole sense is to preserve the quote-unquote best of humanity and if you're not considered valuable they don't let you in.
Speaker 3:So if you don't have anything valuable to give them, they don't see any reason to preserve you in their new world essentially so sadie only gets a taste of that from people coming in and out with the stories that they share, and one of it is they all have a tattoo of a barcode and a number and they're kind of like branded, like sheep, so they have a scanner so they can scan you and know exactly who you are. That's how much control they need, but when you get kicked out, they kind of flay it off of you. Yeah, so people come in and out of Clinton and Sadie hears about these quote unquote, saved cities and she just hates them because she hates everything that they stand for. It's like she thinks that they should all be working together to make everything better. And how dare you base someone's value on whether or not they're a scientist or this or that?
Speaker 3:she thinks she thinks everybody has a use and she just thinks that those kind of people are basically disgusting. So there are bad people who are corrupt and just want power and only want the best of the best, and if you're not the best of the best, then you're basically kicked into what they call the wasteland or the shit. That's what they call it.
Speaker 2:I love it the shit. I like calling it the shit the shit out in the shit like we've heard wasteland before, like that's, that's nothing new.
Speaker 1:But the shit, the shit. You're just out in the shit. I'm literally picturing them in shit being eaten by zombies.
Speaker 2:It's a really disgusting image in my head pretty much. It also says what they think about the outside world too.
Speaker 3:Yeah, Like everything outside of your walls is just the shit.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and not the shit in the good way, like we used to say back in the day Like that's the shit. I was always confused by that saying for that reason yeah, it is a weird saying.
Speaker 1:Because you're putting the word the in front of it. That makes it nice shit. Yes, I don't agree. You'll never catch me saying that. You're just not hip enough, I'm not, it's okay, it's fine, we forgive you. Thank you.
Speaker 2:You're not hip Leah, you're not with it. Exactly, you're not jive.
Speaker 1:Exactly, but there's. I think it's a good juxtaposition and an example of like you can make a choice um boobs. I think we deserve to update the audience with what you're playing with now it's a zombie kitty and it has a pair of boobs megan um, who made the zom kitty. If you're listening I love it I love it so much, but apparently the brain looks like boobs and the eyes are nipples, which you know now that it's pointed out, it's true.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we're going to have to post a picture to see what people think.
Speaker 1:Maybe it's. Yeah, I just thought they were holding a brain. Or is it a butt? I mean boobs, or butt is a whole thing, why not both?
Speaker 2:Yeah, both, both are good.
Speaker 1:Both are good. Both are good. Boobs and butts yes, masterpieces.
Speaker 2:Megan, if you're listening now, you know what to get Alice for her birthday.
Speaker 3:But yes, there are bad people in Yesterday's Gone and Sadie hates them, but she has not actually come into contact with them, it's just through stories. And she does meet someone in Yesterday's Gone from a preservation. So yes, it's that person.
Speaker 1:I can't say anything because I'll just ruin so many things. Right, I can't say anything.
Speaker 2:Yeah, okay, everything is a spoiler.
Speaker 1:I mean, so she Okay, just saying the name says it all, stop it.
Speaker 3:So yeah, okay. So she meets this other woman from a preservation, but the story is that she ran away from this preservation, right, and she finds herself in clinton by happenstance. She breaks in technically because clinton is surrounded by a fence, so technically she trespasses, but in her mind it's the goddamn apocalypse and your fence isn't gonna hold me out yeah, there's all kinds of fences everywhere yeah, so she doesn't give a damn, um, but sadie holds it over her head like you are trespassing, like I should kill you, and she's just like sadie, has standards that are very rich.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it sounds like yeah, and and meanwhile she's like what, even, what even?
Speaker 2:is private property right, right?
Speaker 3:I've never heard of this she's like well, is it really trespassing if I don't want to be here anymore?
Speaker 1:and sadie's like okay fair enough yeah, so like so there.
Speaker 3:So she does end up meeting someone from the preservation to get sort of a firsthand experience on how the people are, um, rather than the people who were kicked out, or she, this person, ran away from preservation, so she gets the exact experience, and yesterday is gone and that person ends up being a very big part of the series it feels so real to me because I'm just thinking about like, how, um, for example, many places, many people in places, look at our country and think that we're all shitty.
Speaker 1:Um, in fact, my own canadian family can be super, uh, discriminatory towards americans and I'm like, hi, I am one now, excuse me, you can be a good person in a place that's making bad choices. But also, like with the, with the family situation, when I was reading gerald and karen, I was like, wow, is this what it would be like to have, like a healthy family? That's so nice and I think it's a balance, like it's a healthy family, never matter. I know, yeah, I mean I've seen them, but I've always been like what is this for? I'm always like, squinting a little bit, like tell me what's really wrong behind the scenes. I don't believe this. Um, tell me your childhood trauma without telling me, I guess I just just did.
Speaker 1:Uh, what was I saying? Now I feel vulnerable, I don't know um oh, just that, like I would love to believe. Like sadie, it sounds like like the world needs to be a perfect and good place, but it's always a mix of everything it is yes, yes, and she learns that unfortunately a very hard way, and you'll see that in.
Speaker 3:you'll see a piece of it, and yesterday's gone and then you'll see more of it in aftermath, book two, which I'm not gonna drop the title yet, just um, that's for later, but that book's not out yet. It's not though, unfortunately, but when I drop the cover and the title, I'll also drop the pre--order. I just gotta get my ass into gear with that. You guys have the first five chapters to read when you're done reading Yesterday's Gone. Yes, and you're allowed to be mad at me, at the end of Yesterday's Gone we will be.
Speaker 1:I was already mad at you at the class.
Speaker 2:Thanks, I'm gonna start now.
Speaker 3:We're mad, get out of our house.
Speaker 1:I mean it's a two hour drive. Just take your crowbar and go, maybe I will. I'm just kidding, okay, good, I'm joking too.
Speaker 2:And I never meant it.
Speaker 3:Sure, dan, but yeah, so, like Skady, has this expectation for the world because her whole world has only been Clinton. She's only ever seen her community working together, even though she knows bad people exist. She hasn't really. She's had quality parents.
Speaker 3:Yes, so she knows bad people exist and in Yesterday's Gone she's only ever known Clinton and never outside of it.
Speaker 3:But she's been outside of it in the sense that she interacts with goners, infected infectors, but the people in these preservations don't even interact with the infected, you know. So she's like I bet it's great sitting behind your walls feeling safe all the time. If you've never had a fight ever, you know what I mean. So she's kind of pissed off that they're treating those people like crap, throwing other people out even though they have enough room to kind of help everybody, but they're not. So they're pretty much basically blatantly choosing not to help people and it kind of makes her pissed, but it makes her relieved that she had the chance to experience this and be strong enough to survive on her own, regardless, because and you'll see this yesterday's gone as a flashback her and her little group do come across a preservation in the early days, but they refused to let them in one, because they had trooper and they and dogs and animals in general are a liability in apocalypse, because I've heard that yeah, they can bark they can bark and give away your position, it's true, um?
Speaker 3:so animals can be carriers of the a virus. They just can't reanimate. Oh shit, that's not good. But they can contract the b virus and what I call transition. So reanimation is for goners, transitioning is for vectors. So animals can be vectors, only primates can be goners. So you do have zombie gorillas.
Speaker 1:I just realized how real in your aftermath world. My question was what About what you would do with your loved one if they were infected? Yeah, that they could have actually. Wow, I'm so sorry.
Speaker 1:I'm going to just feel guilty about that forever. Let's talk more about dogs in the apocalypse. Gladly, because, if folks haven't noticed, keep chuckling about this. This comment about dogs will give away your position. There's no way dogs could be, uh, successful in the apocalypse. That is a stereotype that has been going around the zombie verse lately. Uh, tell us, and particularly small dogs, tell us why a yorkie, uh for the aftermath, and why a chihuahua for your short story, versus, I don't know, a german shepherd so let me just preface this that again, I love all animals, love all breeds of dogs big, small, giant, love them all.
Speaker 3:I've always wanted a great dane and a yorkie together. I think that little just musician is amazing. Love that. But I mean, with a lot of mainstream media and post-apocalyptic scenarios, you usually see Belgian Malinois, you see German Shepherds, you see Rottweilers, you see you know Pipples, and they're all great breeds. But the reason why they're chosen is because they're smart, they're loyal, they're fierce, is because they're smart, they're loyal, they're fierce, um, and they're intimidating.
Speaker 3:However, specifically that intimidation factor yes, they're manly dogs, it's like a it's like a gun with four legs and fur pretty much yeah it's more so for the for the loyalty and intimidation aspect, right, um, but people don't understand that small dogs can just can be just as oil maybe not as intimidating at first glance, but I will say that my scout has terrified people when she goes into her barking fits to. If they ever come close to me and she doesn't know them, she goes into a barking fit and they have scuttled up on chairs.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, I've seen videos of like chihuahuas treeing black bears.
Speaker 3:Yes, so small dogs can be just as intimidating. But at the same time, your partner doesn't need to be intimidating. It can just be your partner because you love that and me having a Yorkie right now. I would fight tooth and nail for my dog at the end of the world and she would just be my partner. I will be the intimidating one in this relationship, that's it yeah it doesn't like.
Speaker 3:My dog doesn't need to be this gun on four legs. She's just there to keep me company. She loves me, you know, and with unraveled and jagger he's a very good boy. Too little chihuahua, you know, he just happened to have a chihuahua and the end of the world happened. You know, it doesn't always have to be this big, fierce dog to be a post-apocalyptic story, because everyone has different breeds of dogs and when the world ends, that person's gonna have the same dog it connects back to the preservation concept too because, like a lot of zombie fiction with dogs has this utilitarian view of a dog Like why have a dog unless it has?
Speaker 1:this purpose beyond just companionship and its inherent value.
Speaker 2:Yeah, why should we treat human beings as human beings unless they do a job that we respect?
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly, but like I agree, I have two dogs that bark a lot, as is evidenced by many episodes and they would give us away they would, but I would work really hard to try and figure out how to train them not to do it and or use it.
Speaker 1:We have to our advantage, like we've thought about making, like a little dog moat or like a platform where they can bark somewhere far away from us but be able to get back to us safely, like there's ways we could utilize the bark, I'm confident yeah, and there's so many other jobs Like if, if you're obsessed with every member of your survival team having some sort of intrinsic value, there's other dogs there's other jobs that dogs can do Cuddling, of course.
Speaker 2:Yes, that's the most important. Dogs can be trained to go get you a beer from the fridge. Oh yeah, absolutely. Dogs can hunt rodents. Absolutely. Dogs can retrieve objects. They can sniff out mushrooms and other edible things, if you teach them how to do it.
Speaker 1:Yes, they're going to know something's coming way before you do. Yes.
Speaker 3:And I just think people forget that and it also has to probably do with the fact that a lot of people don't see small breed dogs as dogs. The amount of people I've come across that are like that's not a dog, it's a rat, it's like, okay, thanks, I love that rat to my dying breath. Also, what's wrong with the rat dogs as dogs in general, but also useful in that sort of sense like oh, that thing can't protect you, I don't need it to protect me I just needed to be there. I love it.
Speaker 1:It's my best friend yeah, yeah, go protect yourself and honestly, I don't really want my dogs trying to protect me because that means that they're gonna get hurt exactly, exactly like. That would actually upset me. If our dogs ran after I, like tried to go after a zombie, that means they're going to get hurt and that would devastate me more than anything else and I would rather protect. I mean, that's what we do now. That's why I like the term guardian instead of owner.
Speaker 3:Yeah, like if I see a bear in my yard, I'm not telling my dog to go fetch, I'm going to get in the middle of that and I've almost gotten hit by cars getting my dog out of the middle of the road and I would do it again.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, and you know, like the whole gun on four legs thing. To go back to that, like, even even in combat scenarios where they have trained animals that are are trained to be soldiers, um, they're not out that, like, their role isn't to chase down dudes and kill them. That's not what they're there for. The. The thing that uh, dogs and combat situations are most helpful for is, uh, retrieving, yes, fallen soldiers, finding explosive devices, um, and like there's.
Speaker 3:There's so many things that they're trying to do and almost none of them involve combat exactly, and in my aftermath youth universe, where you know animals are affected by either virus, sadie, even though she's trained trooper very well she knows the danger and the risk of having a dog and everyone she comes across is just tells her straight up you know, it's a, it's a liability to have a dog in the apocalypse and she's like don't give away your position, just like an EMP would destroy all the cars.
Speaker 1:I'm not sure if we should just voice the online beef. No, it's okay, if you know, you know If you know, you know, it's like.
Speaker 3:Sadie has trained Trooper very well. She she's always made aware like it's a liability, and everybody she comes across when she meets that that woman who comes from the preservation, the first thing she says it's a liability. And sadie's like why does everyone always bring up the dog as if I don't know? Like we live in the same world. Of course I know, but do I give a fuck? No, she's my friend and if you go near my dog I'm gonna kill ya and that's how it?
Speaker 3:is Like she trained Trooper very well to alert her, to disorient zombies, in the sense that Trooper will go and circle zombies to make them trip up, make them just like not look at her while she gets ready to shoot them. That's awesome and she knows very well that Trooper. There are times where trooper will try to go after a goner if sadie is getting like attacked, but sadie will say no because she knows that if trooper bites them, she will. She might not be affected but she'll become a carrier and then she will be putting everyone else at risk because she's a carrier. Right, it's like sadie fully knows and she is fully prepared to reap the consequences of her choice because it to her it's worth the risk.
Speaker 1:She's troopers, her family, you know, and in your universe are there babies. Ever like children?
Speaker 3:yeah, like little children um at this moment, um there's children in clinton, but you don't really, I don't really talk about them, they're just right, but if you did, would this person from the preservation say that small child is a liability?
Speaker 1:Absolutely, oh wow, they're ruthless over at preservation.
Speaker 3:So her mindset and she has literally said she's just like your town is crap. Look at you, you got babies over here you got dogs that don't serve any function other than being your friend.
Speaker 2:I mean, I'm going to be real. This town's a piece of shit.
Speaker 3:She makes it apparent how she feels about little wasteland cities and communities compared to preservations. She's like you know what? We're saving lives? And Sadie's like, no, you're not. So it's the whole beef between those two that yeah.
Speaker 2:They're saving some lives, not everybody's lives.
Speaker 3:Exactly Constant tension between those two characters. So yeah, so you see how preservations are, sort of through that person.
Speaker 1:That's fascinating because I feel like maybe this is, like you know, one of those psychological tests we can start giving, where people is like, what would make you feel worse, or which thing is more disposable to you, the baby or the dog? Baby, because and I'm sorry, parents, I'm so sorry, but it's I'm being honest, being real, that when I watch a zombie movie, if there is a baby, I'm like, oh my fucking god, you're screwed. If there's a dog, I'm just like, yeah, you better make that work for that dog. Obviously I don't want the baby to die, but I'm more worried when there's a baby. There's a baby, yes, then a dog, because a dog is trainable and a baby is a baby and just responding to any stimuli, yes, at all, yeah yes it's terrifying.
Speaker 1:You can't train a baby. You have to wait.
Speaker 2:We have to wait for him to grow a brain yeah, pretty much, pretty much, you know I. I feel like we need to make a list of things that are um, that would make noise in the apocalypse, that we should just abandon. If we're abandoning dogs, like, we should just make a list of other things like babies, for example. Guns, guns. Abandon your guns, yep. Any car that has a factory car alarm on it, get a prius, yeah, get um.
Speaker 1:Uh, motor motorcycles, oh my god yeah, daryl dixon would be so much less cool that his motorcycle.
Speaker 3:True, I actually have motorcycles in my an aftermath book too, which is hilarious, because it's like this makeshift thing that sadie's like is that even safe? Like what does it run on spit and blood? Like what is that? And this other person's just like I don't know if it explodes. It explodes, but it'll, it'll be where it's something right now.
Speaker 2:So like uh, flashlights, they'll just give you away. Oh yeah, absolutely why. Why see in the dark you?
Speaker 3:know, just have your eyes, adapt, be cool.
Speaker 1:Zombies will see the flashlight get rid of it just talking loudly or yelling at each other. There's never a thing that makes me more mad than watching a zombie movie.
Speaker 3:And people are talking at a loud volume when there's clearly zombies nearby.
Speaker 1:I'm like what do you fucking whisper?
Speaker 3:it's called plot convenience the zombies don't notice until they need to notice. Yeah, but I think it is.
Speaker 1:I think it's a personality test. Do you, do you think of the dog as a liability or are you like? No, at all costs, I am going to protect the dog. I will protect my dog at all costs and I would do it for a baby too, but I don't. It's harder because I have to know the baby to shut a baby up probably means suffocating it, versus shutting a dog up means I'm holding its mouth closed and it's looking at me, pissed off pretty much.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's lower stakes yeah, pretty much we could talk to you literally forever and will after this episode is finished. Sorry y'all, you don't get to join that we're gonna have a fire but we do have something very exciting contained fire. I promise it's not arson as far as you know, yeah, and ours. You have some neighbors we could.
Speaker 2:I'm kidding I'm going to delete that, just in case we accidentally burned down the neighbor's house, chaotic Good.
Speaker 1:But if you're not sold yet on reading the Collapse and the Aftermath series, I don't know what will. It's a super fabulous first book. I was in it from the very beginning and I really need to see where Sadie and the other characters that we have heard about are going to go. So if you want to join us, we actually have an amazing opportunity right now a book giveaway that Alice is very generously offering.
Speaker 3:So there are first, second and third prizes. First prize would be a signed book of the collapse with bookmarks and stickers designed by me. I designed the bookmarks and stickers designed um by me. I designed the bookmarks and stickers. Second prize will be the collapse ebook with some signed bookmarks and the stickers also, so you still get some physical merch from the second prize winner.
Speaker 1:And the third prize winner will be the collapse ebook and that is going to be going on from the release of this episode september 7th if you're listening to it right now until september 20th the fall equinox. We thought that would be a fun way to end it, so the way that you can enter the prize is you can follow alice b sullivan's facebook page and join the facebook zombie book club zombesties facebook group. That's right, we are on facebook. We did it. We finally did. You should come be our friend in the group.
Speaker 2:It's the future Facebook.
Speaker 3:I mean, I post pictures of my dog, so it's pretty fun. That's actually great yeah.
Speaker 1:Yes, more dog photos.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I feel like dog photos are your brand.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:And that's what people want.
Speaker 1:The dog never dies. Hashtag, hashtag, or, and that's what people want the dog never dies.
Speaker 2:Hashtag, hashtag, or else we riot.
Speaker 1:Dogs are the apocalypse, so go check out Alice B Sullivan's Facebook page to enter that giveaway. We will let people know on the 21st, the day after the giveaway sign-up period is over, if you won and what you're going to do is tag your favorite zombie apocalypse partner in the comments. Bonus points, not literally, but if you happen to have a page for your dog, like a Facebook profile, that is your dog, you can tag them. That would be super fun. Maybe add a picture. These are things that we could do.
Speaker 3:Yes, I literally have a key chain with my dog that says zombie apocalypse partners.
Speaker 1:So she has one half of the heart, I have the other half.
Speaker 2:Oh, my God has one half of the heart.
Speaker 3:I have the other half oh my god, you could sell that. Yeah, as custom merch also you can tell us? What you would abandon instead of your dog in the apocalypse I would love to know that.
Speaker 1:I would love to hear it. Yes, please. And when? Alice is not writing incredible zombie fiction that makes you think and want to know where the characters are going to go next? She's also participating in making movies. Do you want to tell us a little bit about that?
Speaker 3:uh, sure. So I had the privilege of working with george demick. He is a writer, producer, actor. He is so many things and he's just an awesome guy all around. Um, he approached me after this past living dead weekend after me and him bullshitted literally all weekend. He came back to my booth and also bought my books, which is awesome. Having George Demick ask for me to sign my books for him to buy was like real. He asked me if I wanted to be in his movie.
Speaker 3:Just a small part, it's nothing amazing. It was just a really fun experience. He wanted to showcase my books in a way that would help him and help me. So I got to drive my sister and I drove down to Tennessee because we hate ourselves. 14 and a half hour drive, something like that to be an extra in his movie called Writers of Darkness. So it's five horror writers stay at a haunted Airbnb where the ghosts of a serial killer couple steal their stories and turn them into reality. So it's really fun. I got to see a lot of the shots, which is crazy to experience. There's a lot of reshooting, a lot of angling and retakes and stuff. Also the actors and everybody was just amazing in general. So my part was small. I was just, you know, at a convention. I was a vendor selling my books. But the way they did it is they had people dress up like zombies shuffle over and buy my books. That's amazing.
Speaker 2:Which was so funny.
Speaker 3:And the zombies did their makeup themselves, which I thought was phenomenal. It was just a really fun experience. You can follow the Writers of Darkness movie on Facebook. They are also looking for investors for their next film and I can't stress enough that they're just a great group of people and I'm very excited to see this movie. I think the premiere will be maybe March or April, something like that, and I will be going back down to Tennessee for the premiere. I was asked by George to come back down, so me and him text. It's kind of weird, but he's an awesome guy. He's an awesome man, so if you have time, go check it out you won't be sorry, I can't wait to see it.
Speaker 1:And of course, he likes to text you because you are yourself a legend and that is the magic of Living Dead Weekend. I hope it continues, because those are the kinds of meetings that you have.
Speaker 3:Oh yeah, absolutely Like. Living Dead Weekend was like the best experience I've ever had, going like these last two years.
Speaker 1:I really hope it continues yeah, it's solidified that you're my zombesty for life.
Speaker 3:Oh yeah, for real meeting you all in person was like chef's kiss. Yeah, yeah, it's great I.
Speaker 2:I remember, um, when we were at living dead weekend like I. I can't remember a time, and and quite such a long time, that I felt so comfortable around people that I just met right. It's like we had been friends for like our entire lives yeah, like in the first 30 seconds, it's just like no, we know each other and we have always known each other like there was there's, even though we're like hours and hours away from each other.
Speaker 1:There's no rift yeah, we're like zom soul family pretty much now. It's like just catch up on, like wait a second, what's your, uh, what's your actual backstory when?
Speaker 3:When you're just best friends but you don't actually know any of their traumatic pasts or something?
Speaker 2:What age are you actually? Tell me about your childhood traumas.
Speaker 1:We'll do that over a fire tonight. Well, alice, this has been incredible to have you literally across the table from me. I feel so honored that you came to be with us and to record and to hang out later. Wish everybody was here. You'll be with us in spirit Zombesties Always.
Speaker 2:And you'll be having some s'mores.
Speaker 1:Yeah, go. You know what, if you're listening to this on a Sunday night, go get yourself some s'mores Get some s'mores. Yeah, have a little fire.
Speaker 3:Some s'mores and some s'mores. S'mores, me s'mores, and snores is when you um make s'mores but then eat them in bed.
Speaker 2:Yeah that sounds messy, but I'm down for it. The idea is that you fall asleep while eating them we could eat the s'mores in our hand that's just like a waste of s'mores hammocks are nice.
Speaker 1:I'm a big fan of the hammock. I fall out of them a lot. I've got the cocoon kind so it'll be okay.
Speaker 2:Yeah, fun fact before we made this podcast, we were contemplating making something called the hammock cast, where we just reviewed hammocks that's how much I love them yeah, we're like what if? What if we could just get a hammock.
Speaker 3:Hammock supply stores to sponsor us, like sponsor you guys for hammocks and we just have like a hundred hammocks.
Speaker 2:Oh my god, I think it's still possible. He's only for hammocks and we just have like a hundred hammocks.
Speaker 1:Oh my god, that'd be amazing. I think it's still possible. Could be a Zonia Book Club podcast in a hammock.
Speaker 3:I want a hammock with a cup holder.
Speaker 1:Do those exist? Sadly, we don't have that here, but yes, they do exist Nice. Yeah, let us know if you want to hear us do a hammock zombies in hammocks zombies out of hammocks, zombies in hammocks, zombies in hammocks zombie hammocks
Speaker 2:zombie hammock, you know what there could be.
Speaker 1:A really hilarious scene of a zombie getting like caught in a hammock.
Speaker 3:Oh my god some poor soul just like dies in a hammock and turns into a zombie and then can't get out. Yeah, it's the cocoon's something you don't think about right, like where people are when they reanimate, like if your pants down on the shitter. That's it. That's it, your pants are just always down right, like that's I always right, so I always was like what are you wearing right now? Now you're a zombie, what are you wearing for the rest of your?
Speaker 2:undead life did. Pants are down? I don't think no, that sucks yeah that sucks.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I don't know how else to end like. There's no better ending than that.
Speaker 2:I feel like that's, that's how it is. All the links will be in the description. Um, where can people find you, alice? So where do they look?
Speaker 3:I do have a website. It's alicebsullivancom. That's where you can find my uh, my my upcoming releases, but I'm very active on my Facebook page. There is an author profile, but I am more active on the actual page. You will know it's my page when you see pictures of my dog. I do have an Instagram also, but, like I said, facebook is where I'm mostly at.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that's why we joined Facebook was to be more cool, like Alice and the other authors on Facebook.
Speaker 2:You know there's a few of us now that are always talking on the discords, but also it's become very clear that we got to be on the Facebook if we want to have friends.
Speaker 3:I do recommend it. I do recommend it. I've met a lot of awesome people on Facebook and in some Facebook groups. I'm in Courtney's Facebook group and I think that's like one of the most fun groups I've ever been in. So shout out. Do you want to talk about what you're?
Speaker 1:doing in the Facebook group right now? Sure.
Speaker 3:So Courtney is an amazing author. You know she's been on here. Shout out again, buy her books, chef's kiss. Shout out again by her books, chef's kiss. But she has her Facebook group for her Sundown series and she was like, oh, you should join. I was like, okay, yeah, there's not a lot of members, but the members it has is like such a great community of readers and people in general. They support each other, they shout each other out. They just talk about random things. So in the book or, wow, in the Facebook group, I wanted to do something interactive and engaging. So what I'm doing right now is I have a zombie apocalypse scenario, starting with day negative one where it goes to day zero, with different scenarios and how you would choose which direction the character goes and based on how many votes that decision gets. I would write the story that way. So it's kind of like a why like? You choose sort of adventure in a zombie outbreak scenario set in an elementary school and you are a fifth grade teacher when the zombie outbreak happens at the school.
Speaker 2:So it's been.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I had one of the readers in the facebook group comment. It's like why are you doing this to us? Because, like the last scenario was pretty heartbreaking, the last little excerpt I did was pretty heartbreaking.
Speaker 2:Unfortunately, it's kind of like a group choose your own adventure. Yes, everybody has to choose not ever.
Speaker 3:I mean not everybody. You get like now everybody gets to choose because not everybody's active.
Speaker 3:So I give them a certain amount of time by the time I post it. I'm like you have until 12 pm EST tomorrow to choose. You know, react or comment your choice, and whoever gets the most votes I write it that way. But the thing is is like, even though you choose that answer, I'll write it that way but it might not happen the way you wanted it to happen. So, like this last scenario, everyone chose this certain choice that they thought would be the best, but it ended up being the worst choice you could have chosen and I knew that's how I wanted it to go if that choice was chosen Diabolical, yes. So they're learning that right now that just because you choose it doesn't mean it's going to go the way you expected it to go.
Speaker 1:I love that. This is the beautiful brain of Alice B Sullivan. Everybody Go enter for the giveaway. Follow her on Facebook she's also on Instagram with us, but mostly Facebook. Go to her website, get the books, check them out. I don't know where I was going with that.
Speaker 3:I have a little bit of that. I have a little bit of everything Outbreak, post-apocalypse runners, shamblers I got it all.
Speaker 2:Dogs.
Speaker 3:Dogs Never die.
Speaker 1:Dogs in the apocalypse never die. They never die. We love it.
Speaker 2:Well, thanks everybody, and especially Alice, for joining the Zombie Book Club.
Speaker 3:Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1:And Alice if you want to support the pod?
Speaker 2:Are you?
Speaker 1:pitching Alice directly, but also everybody else.
Speaker 2:Alice, you can leave a review or a rating. Please, Five stars, Alice, and also Alice. If you want to send us a three-minute voicemail at 614-699-0006, you could. You could send us an elevator pitch of one of your books. You could elevator pitch us or just, you know, tell us who you would abandon in the apocalypse instead of your dog. You could also sign up for our newsletter, Alice.
Speaker 1:Alice already has signed up for our newsletter.
Speaker 2:Oh, okay, I gotta check. Admittedly, I have not done anything newsletter related in a long time and I need to.
Speaker 3:I also have a newsletter.
Speaker 1:Sign up for Alice's newsletter. That actually will get into your inbox and not your spam, like ours.
Speaker 2:But, alice, you should also follow us on Instagram. Have you followed us on Instagram?
Speaker 1:Yes, dan, I think I have. Oh, and on Facebook I am on.
Speaker 3:Facebook.
Speaker 2:We could be Facebook friends. Are you on Facebook?
Speaker 3:I am as a page. You cannot be my friend, but you can like and follow me.
Speaker 2:Okay, I'll check it out. You can also join the Brain Munchers Zombie Collective Discord. It's all the links. They're down there in that description and thanks everybody for stopping by. The end is nigh.
Speaker 1:Alice, do you sing the Face of Disgust?
Speaker 2:That was the correct answer.
Speaker 1:Alice, all right, we're just going to say it. Then, baby, bye, bye, bye, don't die.
Speaker 2:Don't die, don't die, don't, die, don't die.
Speaker 1:Bye everybody, Bye-bye, Bye. Thank you Alice.
