Zombie Book Club

'Returned': A Medieval Zombie Graphic Novel with Jason Strutz | Zombie Book Club Ep 113

• Zombie Book Club • Season 3 • Episode 113

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Jason Strutz joins us on Zombie Book Club Ep 113 to talk about Returned, his medieval horror graphic novel where the undead aren’t just monsters — they’re souls trapped in bodies that have turned violent, forced to watch as loved ones try to bring them back. When warrior Vale dies and becomes one such undead, her partner Hal and their son Ragno must navigate the horror, the betrayal, and the slim chance of redemption.

We dive into how Jason’s own life — from caring for a parent with frontotemporal dementia to balancing art with fatherhood — inspired the emotional core of Returned. We also talk about his creative process, the unique zombie mythos he’s built, and what comes next in the Kickstarter rollout.



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Speaker 1:

Welcome to Zombie Book Club, the only book club where the book is graphic, very, very graphic. I'm Dan, and when I'm not surviving a different kind of graphic horror, I'm writing a book about survivors of a zombie apocalypse, but also spaghetti. It was a weird writing session this week.

Speaker 2:

Did it help that I made spaghetti yesterday?

Speaker 1:

Yes.

Speaker 2:

And I'm Leah. Today we're talking with Jason Strutz, author and illustrator of Returned, a four-part medieval horror family drama graphic novel. And I had to say that five times, folks, because the Canadian me kept saying drama, drama, drama in my head, or drama for your mama.

Speaker 2:

Drama mean. Jason is an artist and storyteller who has worked on comics like the House of Montresor, the Deadly Ten and Good Fight Anthology. He also illustrates RPG monsters very cool and heroes for studios like 2C Gaming and Checkmate and works in graphic design. Now Jason is bringing to us his very first graphic novel, returned. That stars the undead, a knight and a corpse priest. We are super excited to talk with you about the first two chapters or parts of your graphic novel returned. Welcome to the show, jason.

Speaker 3:

Thank you for having me Excited to be here.

Speaker 2:

We appreciate that, because we had so many technical difficulties that I'm surprised you didn't fall asleep waiting for us to figure it out.

Speaker 3:

I got to sleep in today, so we're good.

Speaker 2:

That's perfect.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, that always helps. I also slept in today and it was wonderful. You ever have one of those dreams where you're asleep in your dream. That's how tired I was.

Speaker 2:

Have you had those kinds of dreams, Jason?

Speaker 3:

Have I had the type of dreams where I sleep and then I dream?

Speaker 2:

No, where you're sleeping in your. So you're sleeping in your dream.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, like you're in your dream and you're like man, I'm tired, and then you go to sleep.

Speaker 3:

And then you go to sleep. It's a good dream to have. Yeah, double sleep, yeah.

Speaker 1:

Double sleep, that's what they call it. We have some rapid fire questions for you. Yeah, let's go. We will be judging you based on this, so no pressure.

Speaker 3:

First question, most important question other than the other ones, of course you get to choose and your choice is going to affect everybody on this planet, because your choice is between the foray, the 40 hour work week or the zombie apocalypse as to which one I would rather uh be in yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, um, I mean I guess I have to go with the 40 hour work week because that is both an improvement probably the hours that I currently work, as well as no one's no one's actively trying to kill me at this moment, but you know, a 40 hour work week? Yeah, that I know. Of that I know.

Speaker 2:

How many hours a week do you work?

Speaker 3:

that I know. How many hours a week do you work? I don't, I don't count, I don't count so much, but uh, it's a bunch right now. It's a bunch where we're heading towards October, so it's usually my uh busy season and uh have have a bunch of things that I'm uh working on, random freelance stuff. I do uh work for the uh the Poe house and museum in Baltimore, uh, so they're uh Poe festivals coming up next month, so I'm finishing up a bunch of work for them. So busy, busy times. And also have my Kickstarter going. So, yeah, yeah, hours are. Hours are very fluid. Sometimes it's sometimes it's a lot and sometimes it's it's less. Uh, but if I'm working for somebody, I generally want to get their stuff done so I can get back to what I'm doing.

Speaker 2:

Oh I understand that.

Speaker 1:

I mean it does at least sound like interesting and fulfilling work.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's all good stuff, it's all things that I want to do, yeah. So that's an easier question for you yeah, yeah, 40 hours like oh, I can just home and stop and and not think about the work for a bit that sounds awesome.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah, let's do that. You know, do you want, do you want everybody to, to become, uh, shuffling corpses, um, or go back to the poe museum? It's a. It's a little bit different when you frame it that way yeah, let's go to the poe museum, yeah, yeah let's go to the poe museum.

Speaker 3:

Let's all go let's all go to the finish work at five o'clock and then reach work and play some video games and all that that sounds awesome, yeah well, sadly it's the zombie apocalypse.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, you didn't get the poem museum question is not doing so hot right now or maybe it is, is the museum a good place to go in the it could be.

Speaker 3:

It's, it's, uh, it's very small, uh and uh getting renovated extensively right now, so I don't even think we can get in oh well, you know, if you, if you, have a hard time getting in, so did the zombies, yeah it's true uh, so you got that zombie apocalypse.

Speaker 1:

It's happening. Maybe you're at the poe museum, maybe not, maybe they didn't let you in, but what is your weapon of choice?

Speaker 3:

I would say, uh, weapon of choice is going to be, uh, some sort of blunt, uh blunt swinging instrument, I believe um, there's a lot of them that choose from, like you can pretty much find them anywhere.

Speaker 3:

I guess I'm more partial to like a, like a bat type thing, uh, but does require you know space around you to to swing. Uh, I guess I would also go with, uh, yeah, some some sort of other uh like distance, distance causing, causing weapon, like a long pike, that sort of thing, so you could just stick somebody and then just continue to drive them backwards and keep them out of arm's reach.

Speaker 2:

I appreciate the visual representation of sticking someone that you just did for me. No one else can see it. It was very, very real.

Speaker 1:

I do love the choice of a bat, because there's so many things that you could pick up that were never meant to be a weapon and also weren't meant to be like, swung in human hands, you know, like a pipe or something, a wrench Though you could do it, you know if you're brave enough but a bat is like designed for human hands to swing at things really hard.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, yeah at things really hard, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm worried about the impact force of that, but I, for the most part, just don't want to carry around guns and want to have ammunition that I have to keep track of and then eventually it becomes not useful. In theory, you could run out of all of the bullets in the world and then your gun is nothing, and if you haven't developed your bat skills, then you're you're still screwed yeah, you want to spend that time that you have all that extra energy from not starving to improve your bat skills I have an important follow-up question, jason, because we are batting two in a row.

Speaker 2:

Our last author um last week also chose a bat a baseball bat Is there a? Specific kind of baseball bat that you think would be most effective.

Speaker 3:

I don't know about effective, but I think that I would really like the like bong of an aluminum bat.

Speaker 1:

So you're going for the sound.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, yeah, like some people, like the crack you like the bong. Yeah, it could, I'm sorry, Sorry, Jason.

Speaker 2:

It was a slow burn on that one. That was Sorry, Jason. I'm going to repeat it in case anybody missed it. Dan just said you chose the Wait, you like the crack or the bong.

Speaker 3:

Anyway it was not what I was expecting.

Speaker 2:

Back to the ding-bong of the aluminum bat. That was so funny.

Speaker 1:

We're going to have to talk to a bat expert.

Speaker 2:

We are, but this is two for two aluminum bat, and this is the first time in years that we've been doing this, that we've gotten this answer, so I think it's interesting twice in a row, yeah, interesting.

Speaker 1:

All right Okay.

Speaker 2:

Something's changed, yeah a more fun topic it's the apocalypse, still all of these questions of the apocalypse, but in this case you come across a huge, like walmart level warehouse that is filled with only one shale. I can't speak today.

Speaker 1:

Shale stable food item is that what you're going with?

Speaker 2:

I'm just leaning in Shelf-stable food item for the apocalypse. You have access to it until you die. What would you choose to eat over and over again?

Speaker 3:

And is this Do I have? Can I cook it? Can I macaroni? And?

Speaker 2:

cheese it. You can do whatever you want, as long as the thing itself is technically shelf-stable. So it's preserved.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, itself is technically shelf stable, so it's preserved. Yeah, yeah, it'll be preserved and I can figure out a way to cook it. Uh, I would say in that case uh, give me, give me some of that, um, some of that good ramen, the kind of ramen uh, blanking on the person's name, but I've been eating this ramen and you open it up and it's got like three different things you have to open.

Speaker 1:

Oh yeah, it's like making a model kit and then eventually you end up with ramen well, you got the, the creamy packet, you got the spicy pack, and then you get the spicy pack you get like a little oil packet, you get a little veggie packet, like that's, that's the good, that's really fancy ramen.

Speaker 3:

It's fancy ramen that'll cost you like a buck 50, maybe two in this economy in the apocalypse, you going to get that a lot to trade.

Speaker 2:

If you offered that to somebody, they would trade.

Speaker 3:

That's a lot, that's a lot and I feel it's pretty filling. I feel it's satisfying. I do Comic-Cons and things all the time, so I'm always packing tons of granola bars and nuts and things that I can eat behind the table, but at some point I need something warm. It must nuts and things that I can eat behind the table, but at some point I I need something warm.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, it must be warm food and, uh, I have to go find something, so that's also a good uh. Daily amount of salt yeah, it'll give you, your daily

Speaker 2:

yeah yeah, have you figured out a way to heat it up at a comic-con, or is it?

Speaker 3:

no, no, I haven't been able to it. I just have to go to the cafe or something and just buy anything that's been heated, you know, chicken fingers or or a sandwich or something that's warm. For some reason, I crave warm food, no matter how much actual food I've had. So, bougie, I need it at least once a day, something warm.

Speaker 1:

That's. That's what I uh don't like about summer. Sometimes it's like warm food isn't always the best food when it's really hot, and I I like that cold weather because I'm like I want soup, soup season.

Speaker 2:

Yes, you are still in this warehouse and the other thing you discover is a solar powered dvd player and box set, just one box set.

Speaker 1:

What do you choose to?

Speaker 2:

watch forever yeah, maybe.

Speaker 1:

Maybe it's like a moot, like a movie box set, or it's a tv show box show box, a documentary box.

Speaker 3:

I feel like you're looking for one right now I, I had one next to my table, I don't need more. Uh, definitely the the twilight zone. Uh, okay, yeah, that all give me, give me all the Twilight Zones.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, that's a good option because there's so much variety.

Speaker 3:

There's a lot there. There's variety. Every episode is different, yeah.

Speaker 1:

Thought-provoking.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, yeah, teach me not to drop my glasses, it'll be perfect, yeah.

Speaker 2:

Classic. I have contacts in right nowason for those of you who cannot see us. Aka everybody listening. Jason is wearing glasses. It's my worst fear in the apocalypse is going without sight yes, yes, absolutely.

Speaker 3:

It's a horrifying ending to that episode. Anybody doesn't know guy uh, apocalypse, he's the only one left finds a library. He, he's like, sacrificed his life, uh and ignored his family reading, uh, that pernicious evil of reading uh and finds a library and he's like, ah great, I'm good for a long time. And then he, he drops his very shatterable glasses, which I mean that's not really a thing anymore either. So uh, but drops his glasses and I assume is is farsighted. If you're nearsighted, like, it's probably okay, you just have to hold your book closer yeah if you're far, so I hold your book further away

Speaker 2:

yeah, it would have to be very. It would have to be like an inch from my face at this point.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, exactly me, me too, me too. It's like it's clear about here, but but I could live in a, in a library I'm a negative 3.25 on each eye.

Speaker 2:

What are we talking here, jason?

Speaker 3:

I, I don't remember, it wasn't that long ago, but it's numbers. Could be any numbers and I wouldn't remember them yeah, I don't know what those numbers mean it just means bad bad, gosh too many higher the negative number, the worse

Speaker 2:

it is yeah, it means if I didn't have my contacts and I could not read any of the words on my laptop, which is, I don't know, 18 inches from my face.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I've, I've got really great far sight. And sometimes Leah will be like look at this thing on my phone and she puts it right in my face and I'm just like, ah, my eyes, I cannot look at something that close. And then and then I have to hold it like an arm's length away just to see what she's looking at I think he needs reading, I might probably probably uh, one last question, dan.

Speaker 1:

You want to do this one, I mean before we get into returned okay, so I guess this is uh, this is a little bit um, something that maybe you've thought about before. Uh, you have turned into a zombie, um, and you get to pick your first victim. Who is it gonna be?

Speaker 3:

that is. That is and I have. I have answers, but I don't know. The fbi is listening we also have answers I've got answers, but how hard do we want to go here?

Speaker 1:

Well, why are they your first victim? Is it because you want them to be, you know, to not be around anymore? Or is it because you just want their companionship.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, do I want them with me, or do I want them? Am I just a means, just a you know, a means to an end?

Speaker 1:

at that point, yeah, how much of them are you eating as well?

Speaker 3:

I guess, yeah, I guess I would probably want to be more of the means to an end. So I have to find uh, somebody around me that uh, at least I personally believe uh should not be doing the things that they would be doing uh alive. So, uh, I don't know, let's, I don't know, let's go find uh. Let's go find a a uh, a gay conversion camp counselor or something, yeah, and uh, be like you're gonna be better off as a zombie, like eating, you're gonna convert them they shouldn't be mad about this.

Speaker 2:

It's only fair delicious, or I think that's. The problem that I think about in this scenario is, like the people that I'd want to eat, I would be concerned I wouldn't find appetizing, because I don't in this form.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, I mean, I would, I probably would want them warm, so I'd do some zombie baking first.

Speaker 1:

I could think of a few people that I'd probably take a bite out of, but then spit it back out.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, yeah, just do bare minimum. Do what you got to do, then get out.

Speaker 2:

I love that. I was not expecting that answer. It's a very good one. I will join you in eating the conversion therapy people. Well, that is the end of our rapid fire questions, which means we get to get into the tofu meat, your main course choice the fleshy part of our conversation, which is your graphic novel Returned. Can you tell us just a little bit about it and what you have published so far, Because we know it's four parts? Where are you on your journey?

Speaker 3:

now. So currently part one and two is done and you can get both of those on Kickstarter. That runs through the end of September, september 30th. But Returned is a medieval horror, family drama, as the Canadians might say. Stars main character Vale. She's fighting an army of the dead in the beginning of the book, unfortunately dead herself by about page 13. I've got to give you some spoilers because it's just kind of a big part. It's a quick turn. That's just the set, the setup here. So she unfortunately dies herself by about page 13.

Speaker 3:

Spend some time as a bad zombie lady till her family finds her, ties her to a chair and helps her ghost re-inhabit her zombie body. So that comes as a lot of part one. Part two we have to then escape. She's been reunited with her family, she's been reunited with her own body and now she wants to help her family escape the zombie apocalypse that's going on, bad in some funeral attire and a big floating castle that we haven't dealt a lot with yet. So there's some hints of things to come and that it gets weird. It gets weird. That's a great title.

Speaker 3:

It can get weird, but the first part is just getting her sort of out of her body. Her soul, her spirit, is still attached to her rampaging zombie body. She has to watch that process happen and watch the things that her body does and then later come to terms with that a bit and also try to help her family escape. And as they escape they pick up some classic zombie story, other survivors and in this case we can start bringing in a lot of the suspicion and paranoia of somebody here has a secret. So as we go on, as you know it's a four-part story. So parts one and two are out and I do a webcomic release Tuesdays and Thursdays, a new page every Tuesday, thursday, and when that part is done then I go to Kickstarter to do the print. So part one is a 43-page book. Part two is like 40 pages. Part three coming up will be about that same size and then part four is a little bit shorter so you can read online. You can read in a much nicer form in a book through the Kickstarter.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, that was what I would like to have as a physical copy. I have been following you on Instagram with your weekly posts, which I really enjoyed, but having something physical is always just a different experience.

Speaker 1:

That weekly release is very nostalgic for me, way back in, way back in the uh, the early internet days when, um when also zombie movies were kind of a rarity. Like you get one or two zombie movies a year.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, there was a. There's a doldrums they weren't always good.

Speaker 1:

Uh, there were a fair amount of um web comics, zombie web comics that I seeked out with with fervor, and I would just be like dying at the end of the one page of the week yeah, yeah, and you know this is a long narrative story.

Speaker 3:

Uh, so the the couple pages a week, you know, isn't necessarily satisfying, but I also want people to be able to experience the story in in whatever way they can and assuming that if they're enjoying what they're reading, they're going to want to come and pick up a book if they can. And if they can, they can continue to read online. It'll be. All the parts are available online and they'll continue to be throughout the project. And, yeah, for the most part, like I need I need more eyeballs on it than I need to try to like get a dollar from everybody who looks at a page.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, I'd rather have people look at it and enjoy that and and, and you know, build, build more of of that.

Speaker 2:

following I really appreciate that. It's available freely for anybody who uh wants to put their eyes on it, which highly recommend you do. I actually like looking at it weekly because it gives me a chance to, um, really look at the art I am a newer to comics and graphic novel person, so I have a tendency, if I've got all of it, to just like speed read and then miss. Yeah, exactly, and um, you're an incredible artist. So, like, looking at the art on the page is really amazing to see thank you.

Speaker 1:

Thank you, yeah, it's you know people who who haven't seen it it's. It's full color because there's a lot of color yeah, and the lighting is incredible yeah I I really appreciated like your attention to lighting, especially with like fire going on in the yeah, yeah, I really, uh, I I enjoy that stuff.

Speaker 3:

It's it's a very hybrid uh workflow in that I'm I'm uh doing all the layouts and and everything on my uh computer and I print that out and then do ink wash using a light box, so every page has an inked page. And you can actually check that out on my YouTube channel at Struts Art, where I have time lapses of making pretty much all the pages that are currently out and that goes through the inking and the coloring of each page, and then I take that and do the coloring back in the computer. And that kind of gives me a lot of flexibility there, both in terms of how it looks as well as where I can work, because I can take that coloring work on my iPad to my weekly drawing event and work on it there or at the library, or take my daughter somewhere and she's got to do something and sit and do a little bit of work. So it gives me some freedom there.

Speaker 2:

That's nice. I was going to ask this later, but I feel like now's the perfect time, which is that you're a work at home dad, which I'd love to see. How do you balance it all?

Speaker 3:

How do you balance it all? Well, so it's certainly gotten better since my daughter's been going to school. So she's 12 now, so she's definitely going to full-time school. But this project started back when she was in half days, so I'd get like three hours or something to myself, so I used a lot of that time in writing this script or something to myself. So I used a lot of that time in writing this script, and she was going to be going to full-time school in the year. School year 2019 to 2020 was her first year of full-time school.

Speaker 1:

And I was like I should have something to work on.

Speaker 3:

I need a book to work on. I need to hit the ground running, yeah, and, as you know, that didn't turn out quite the way. I became a part time teacher's aide, keeping her online and everything. So project pushback a few times, but that was. That was good in terms of getting the script where I wanted it to be. It's funny how that works, having editors read through and it's fine and it's fine.

Speaker 3:

But that balance can be can be stressful. Certainly when she was younger and home all the time, it was, you know, finding finding the places to work. Either it's during a nap time or later at night, or that when it was not, you know, not neglectful to just sit there and do some drawing, and it was not, you know, not neglectful to just sit there and do some drawing. But I would, if I was working digitally, like I could just have her sleeping on my, on my chest and I could draw with the other hand, so that that that was OK. And then, yeah, so my, my, my wife, would come home from her job and and hang out with her at the at that time. But yeah, now she's, now she's very self-sufficient and I'm mostly driving her places and having to wake up early now for her new school getting used to that. But yeah, for the most part it's making dinners and driving people places.

Speaker 2:

I love that and I'm happy for you that she's mostly independent. I we don't have kids, but if I was going to look after a kid, it would be. I would require said kid to be potty trained and able to use the microwave not that I wouldn't feed them you

Speaker 3:

know. But like I want that level of skill, yeah, you want, you want to get to that level and that's, that's a fine place to be. Yeah, that makes that makes of sense.

Speaker 2:

But it sounds like you were raising two passions Not to call your kid a passion project, but you had two passions you were balancing yeah, absolutely, and are still yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3:

And I wanted to keep that moving and have some progress going.

Speaker 1:

while that was part of my life, it's a big part also you've, I mean, you've taken on a lot with this graphic novel because, like we've, we've talked to some some, uh, comic artists uh in the past and a lot of times, like the, there even even an indie team is like three to five people. Sometimes, like you have somebody that's doing the writing, somebody that's doing the inking, or the yeah, the, the inking, the coloring, the lettering, the lettering editing editing um, and that you're a you're a one person show and all that yeah, so I do.

Speaker 3:

Uh, I did work with an editor, developmental editor. Uh, as this was was my first big script that I wrote, it was important to me to make sure that I had a story that was worth moving forward with. So I did have a developmental editor, beth Scorzato, who I knew from Comic-Cons and things like that, and she does freelance editing. So I worked with her early on in the script writing process, where mostly it was I've written a script, can you read it and make sure it's a story, make sure it makes sense, and we worked through some things there. And I also have editors that do proofreading and make sure my balloons are in the right order.

Speaker 3:

Uh, according to most people, that's important, yeah, and then that happens because I'm yeah, I'm, I'm working, uh, I'm working on my own, so like everything makes sense to me, but you had got to put it in front of somebody else to be like hey, does this actually make sense? Uh, cause sometimes you're just too close to what you're working on to see those issues.

Speaker 2:

How long does it take to make one page for you?

Speaker 3:

So it's kind of spread out in that the script is all written, every page is planned out, every page is mostly lettered. It's your planner On the sketch, yeah, on that sketch, that layout page, it's all lettered. Because my other paranoia is leaving enough room for the lettering. So I always letter things before I do the final art. So right now it's just doing the inking and coloring of each page. So, uh, inking, depending on the page, if it's a big crowd thing, it's going to take a little bit longer, but usually about, uh, about eight, eight, nine, 10 hours, uh for inking and then maybe two to three for coloring, at most, and then do a little finishing on the lettering and then it's, it's ready to go out.

Speaker 3:

So that does help the schedule and that that a lot of the the puzzle solving of comics is done, where I think of every page as a puzzle. I have the things that I want to happen on that page and how do I tell that story visually? You know how do, how do I make that page flow? How do I make, make the big moments, you know, as big emotionally as they should be. So that's the puzzle solving part, which is probably, you know, for me like the hardest thing to solve I can. I can draw stuff all day, but making it, making it work as a story, is the things. That is the thing that's a little harder to to do or figure out.

Speaker 2:

It's a lot, it's a huge endeavor and it's also a good reminder that, even though it could appear like it's a solo project, you do have a lot of support on the editing side.

Speaker 3:

Absolutely.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and you're still like. I can imagine there's points where it's just you and your pencil or whatever Ink even it's just you and your pencil or whatever, Ink you and your ink, Sitting alone thinking about it. I wonder if there's moments where you're just like what the fuck am I doing? And how do you get through those?

Speaker 3:

Because it's a huge commitment, big commitment, and basically it was that I promised myself that I would do this, basically, and that, figuring out where I was in a career, figuring out like what I needed to do next, um, if I wanted to keep doing comics, I wanted to keep doing illustration uh, it was a like here's where I am in my career, what could I do right now? And I could work with other uh writers who are kind of at my level, and then we're both kind of scrabbling up a ladder, Um, and. And then that puts me into a place where I I have those deadlines and have the commitment to someone else that is that is counting on me. And then, especially having having a young kid, your schedule is messed up. So some of that is just I didn't want to involve someone else in my very variable schedule. So I didn't get those emails of saying, hey, where's the, where's the pages, where's that stuff, where's that thing? Yeah, someone was just waiting on me to do the stuff.

Speaker 3:

I found stressful and I figured it also wasn't fair to to bring someone else into where I was. And then I wanted to try to make a a more of a career happen, just based on the work that I can do on my own, so that that also that allows me to put it out free. I don't have to negotiate that with someone else or negotiate that with a publisher. And you know that what I would like is just to write this book, finish it and then write another book, and that would be kind of my dream career. This is kind of the shot at like can I make that work? Can I bring in enough to make that make sense? And I promised myself that I would give this a good try. And that means, hey, I'm going to write a big book and going to put it out in a way that the most people can see it and we'll see what happens.

Speaker 2:

I think that's what I love about indie creators is the like I'm trying to think of a good adjective. I'm just going to say brave, like as somebody who really appreciates and actually just got laid off. Fun fact for me, I really appreciate knowing where my paycheck's coming from and but at the same time I have lots of artistic aspirations and I see people like you just doing it.

Speaker 3:

That's very brave, and I will. I do also have to note you mentioned the people behind me doing editing and all that, but I also have my partner who has has a good job, and I worked jobs getting her through school. So I had jobs for 10, 12 years, getting us up to a point, and then she takes over with her job and I stay home with our daughter.

Speaker 2:

That's amazing.

Speaker 3:

I love that switch sort of happened with the, you know with the with our kid, but there is absolutely that support there as well. If I didn't have her in my corner in that way, as well as being an excellent proofreader, if I didn't have her in that corner, having a job and having healthcare and all that, I would be out having my own job somewhere.

Speaker 3:

I appreciate your humility and acknowledging that it's not possible without that support and I think you'll find that all around comics Like hey, you do comics, you could be like even a name, and those people have others in their lives that lend to the stability that allows them to period of time before they became very successful, that their success is fully attributed to somebody in their life helping them get to that point so that they could focus on the thing that they were creating.

Speaker 2:

What makes me appreciate you, jason and this should be normal, but I don't think is is that you just acknowledged it.

Speaker 3:

So, yeah, I always try to, because I talk to lots of artists and hang out with art people and I really don't want anyone to quit their job thinking, hey, oh, jason, jason's doing it. Like, don't quit your job, look at you know, take a look at your family, take a look at where you are and see, like, well, how much, what's my percentage that I'm contributing here, and it doesn't make sense? Yeah, what's my percentage that I'm contributing here and does it make sense? So I just want to be honest about where I'm coming from as well, that I have the ability to do this, so I'm giving that the best shot that I possibly can.

Speaker 2:

This is why I dream of universal basic income, because I think all the time about people who have incredible things inside of them that they just don't have the opportunity.

Speaker 3:

And it's. It's a very it could be a very capitalist thing to do, in that If you free people up to be innovative, they're going to be innovative more often than not. Yeah, and you could have so many people starting so many different types of businesses, which then support people through employment, if you just gave them the chance to do so.

Speaker 2:

I'm resisting the urge to stand up and cheer.

Speaker 3:

Yes, I agree.

Speaker 2:

I think universal basic income other than public health care are like my two things that I just wish for in this country.

Speaker 3:

Those two would be great.

Speaker 2:

Especially for entrepreneurship because, like you said, you're able to do this because your wife has health insurance, and so that's a really big thing. I want to ask you actually about Vale, because one of the first things that I noticed about her is that your main character is a woman, she's a warrior woman, and the unfortunate reality is that most of the time when I see especially comic depicted women in apocalypse or just comics generally, it's usually a stereotypical, highly sexualized woman, and that is not what you did with Vale. Vale is a person. They're not highly gendered, they're not running around in heels, they don't have perfect hair. I don't think I've seen their boobs once, unless they just happened to be available, you know, like closed appropriately, and I feel like this must have been an intentional choice. I'd love to hear more from you about, like, what made you choose to center a female character, but also not not from those stereotypical spaces.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, I mean, I think that sort of thing has its place. That sort of thing has its place, uh, but uh, what I want to do is is make sure that that is uh something that uh everyone can read and everyone feels like, uh can, can connect with that character and and sometimes that extra level of of, uh you know, sexuality or or or that can get in the way of people connecting with, with a work, I want this to be read by, you know, as many people as possible, and I I never want to have to sort of make an apology for for a part of it and I could, I could make apologies for for some level of gore and all that.

Speaker 2:

But like it's a zombie, it's zombies.

Speaker 3:

That's, it's, it's still zombies, still zombies, uh, but, yeah, I wanted it to be more on the the realistic side.

Speaker 3:

Uh, I also wanted to uh make sure that that everyone could could connect with her, uh, on the the levels that I that I'm intending them to in terms of, like, she cares for her son, she cares for her partner and at the time that we're picking up this story, it's just not an appropriate time for anything else to happen.

Speaker 3:

She is certainly a full human and you know, uh, everything that humans do, uh, and, and you know, there are a couple like flashback times to when she was younger, and, and, um, and all that, but it's, it's all couched in the like, well, this is a relationship, this is a person, um, so she certainly had those experiences. But when we pick up story, she's fighting zombies and then is dead and then meets her family again and that, that, that aspect when she's a zombie, is definitely something I wanted to sidestep, like we're not going to, we're not getting into that, but but definitely wanted to, to be able to, to put it anywhere and not have to, uh, you know, make those, make, make apologies or or say like, oh, I know that she's, she's got a chain mail bikini on, but you'll enjoy it. Yeah, when you get to know her you will. But it can be. It can be a hurdle for people. So what about? And I want people to buy into the world more than I want you know, ogling?

Speaker 1:

What about the people who want an apology because it's not hyper-sexualized and they're like she's not in a chainmail bikini and wearing heels? I'm offended.

Speaker 3:

I could point you to any number of other books that will fulfill your needs.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I mean that's. I think you make a good point and I always want to make sure that that's clear. It's not that I'm against chain mail bikini, but it's that it's 99% of what is available and that's what makes it it's like literally noticeable. When I open up your graphic novel and I'm like that's not who I expected to see. I already had in my mind what was going to be drawn and so, yeah, you portray her as a whole person and not like titties first, and I just you're right. For someone like me, that makes her instantly more accessible and relatable. I love her shaved hair sides like I want to look like veil. I think she's rad, thank you, thank you. How would you describe your zombies? For those who haven't read it yet?

Speaker 3:

uh. So zombies, they are, uh, pretty much fully kind of functional human beings mechanically, in that they can move as fast or as slow as a human could. When they are first turned, uh, and eventually they would they would start to break down. Uh, once you have mechanical problems, they're not going to be able to walk around anymore. So, so there's not a lot of uh, army of darkness walking around, skeletons, uh, type things it is. They will move as long as they're mechanically able to move. Yeah, uh, so you can, you know, you can rip pieces off, you can, you know, take off arms, take off half of a face or whatever, but as long as they can keep moving around, they're going to keep moving around.

Speaker 3:

And there's a mystical, sort of magical angle to the whole thing in that there's a reason this is happening. There's sort of somebody behind this. So they have a plan and they really just need some bodies for a while. They don't need to last forever. It is just a means to an end. So they're going to be mindless. They're going to be attacking people they're mostly attacking people with the goal of also killing their victims so that they add to the, the army of the dead. There's not so much a consumption angle to it, either brains or meat or blood or anything like that. It's just I'm dead and I want you to be dead as well.

Speaker 3:

Spread, yeah, and then uh, every uh. Part of the mechanics of this is that how, how your body gets co-opted is that your soul is still attached to your body, sort of like a balloon uh, glowing blue balloon. Uh, above your body you are, you are sort of kicked out of your body, but uh in, in order to be able to move you around you, your, your spirit has to still be kind of attached to the body. Uh, so you have that sort of psychological aspect of you know, having to watch yourself do these terrible things. Uh, and, and most of the time, most characters will, uh, will, give up after a time of like, well, this uh-oh rut row.

Speaker 2:

Why did the meeting end?

Speaker 1:

hard cut leah. Um sorry, jason, we're. We've switched from zoom to google meet.

Speaker 2:

I don't know why they call it google meet I guess they're getting into livestock and this livestock is not holding up no, I paid the money to have an endless google meet and then it kicked us out mid-sentence for you, jason. So thank you for your patience of the ongoing technical challenges.

Speaker 3:

No problem.

Speaker 2:

But let's get back into it, because we were in the middle of something really great with your zombies. I would love to hear more about your choice to have somebody be sentient and witnessing themselves doing atrocious things.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, so I wanted to. I think it was necessary if I wanted to tell a story about being becoming a zombie, become being a zombie. I needed to have that sort of perspective on, uh, on what was happening. And so, yeah you're, you're sort of trapped above your, your, your body, uh, sort of represented by your, uh, your, your spirit, uh, which is a a of a drawing skeleton, a layout skeleton of what I thought was the most basic aspect of a comic book character. Is that that skeleton you would draw first in thumbnail pages, so just kind of a head and a rib cage and some blobby hands, maybe some fingers.

Speaker 3:

It took me a while to figure out what that spirit would look like, what that soul would look like, and eventually landed on that idea of, well, this is what I draw first, what I'm going to draw a page of the book is this skeleton.

Speaker 3:

So I figured that was the most basic aspect of of kind of any comic book character and, uh, a lot also allows me to put in a, you know, a couple little, very tiny meta blobs where, like that uh, meta, meta bits where the spirit can look, you know, maybe at a different panel or like a word balloon or something, um, so I wanted to have that perspective on what was happening, uh, so that, um, I'd be able to have that turn of her coming back to to a body, so she, she'll spend some time, um, you know, watching her body, do do these bad things and then, uh, the the consequences of that, and then have to deal with, uh, that when she's back in control of, like, hey, I did these things. I have to get past that because I have a job to do right now.

Speaker 2:

Is there something that in real world, non-zombie life, that inspired you to have that kind of a metaphor?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, absolutely. So. Part of the inspiration for the book was my father had frontotemporal dementia, so FTD is kind of a quick onset type of dementia and it's one that will be pretty insidious in that you appear mostly fine, fine, but your thinking gets very jumbled. Your personality can change, you can be, um, you know, kind of a different person in a lot of ways and the, the thought that like, oh, maybe, like somewhere in there is, is like the more of the, the father that I knew, uh, having to sort of watch this like change from the, from the inside, and you can't do anything about it, um, and I I have no, no real evidence uh, on that, but it was, you know, kind of a thought when that was was happening.

Speaker 3:

That, um, you know, what would it? What would it? What does it look like on the inside of this? So a tough sort of origin for it. But I think that's where a lot of good fiction comes from and that it's yeah, there's zombies and swords and people running around and jumping and all that cool stuff, but it comes from a place of experience or inspiration that has a real world basis. So, so the idea of being trapped in a body that's doing things that you don't necessarily want to do is something that that exists, just not in zombie form.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I think you said your father's passed. Yes, yes, art is something that exists, just not in zombie form. Yeah, I think you said your father's passed. Yes, yes, I'm so sorry to hear that. I think that the best art is usually something that is direct experience, that's challenging and then channeled through storytelling. And I didn't know that it was about. I had to look it up because you'd put FTD as an acronym in an email with me and.

Speaker 2:

I learned frontotemporal dementia, which I think our dog has actually. So I was just saying it was dementia, but I think it was interesting because before you noting that, I was thinking it was a stand in for other kinds of moments. Like I think people who have had like very closely in my own life, who've had struggled addiction issues, that when they're in the peak of that some part of them knows and doesn't want to be doing the things that they're doing but they can't help themselves and then they have to when they come out of it and I'm curious if this happened with your dad like when they come out of it and they're in a better place, they have to grapple with what they've done. And yeah, were there. If it's OK, if I ask, like, were there moments like that with your dad where he would come back?

Speaker 3:

I can't say that there was, that there were any of those those moments.

Speaker 3:

I think that's kind of a aspect of the of the disease, that it's kind of a accumulative thing, so I can't say that there was anything that that I knew about, that was speaking towards that, but definitely I would.

Speaker 3:

I would see, definitely would resonate with a, a addiction mindset, anybody who is in a body that they don't necessarily identify with. So I've had, I've had lots of conversations with people who have read it and were like, oh, I really, you know, like that's a really interesting idea, like that really speaks to X, that speaks to this, that that something I experience. So, um, regardless of where I'm coming from in creating it, I am uh definitely uh hearing from people who can read that in in a variety of ways, which I'm always very excited to hear about. Like I want to know how people connect with it and and I'm super glad that uh, people can see, um, all sorts of different, uh different things in that and that's that's always great to see yeah, there's also, like the, the story on the other side of that too, which is like this that's, that's how you can tell it's a good story, because you can read it two different ways.

Speaker 1:

Is that? Um, you know it's it's not just their experience of coming back from that and and seeing what they've done, but also people seeing what they've done and then not being able to trust that person to not do it again, which I think is like the story of most people who have had a family member or somebody that they care about with addiction issues. Yeah, absolutely, and you it that shows up in the family member or somebody that they care about with addiction issues?

Speaker 3:

yeah, absolutely. And you, that shows up in the, in the family dynamics as, um, as everyone comes together, you know, end of end of book one, they come together and go into book two, uh, her partner, hell, he's, you know rightly a little bit wary about the whole situation of like, he's, he's not really, uh, he's not really a warrior, he's not really a fighter. He's a big guy but blacksmith, uh, type big where he, he likes to make things. Um, there's a more more metaphors for like things that that I experienced. And as a stay-at-home dad, my wife's going out to work every day and comes back.

Speaker 3:

This is a similar situation. He's taking care of their kid, he's making things and building things, and I think somewhere in the story states that he's mostly making things for building. He's not a I-make-swords-all-day type of blacksmith. If such a thing existed in my, my, ahistorical, uh, medieval times here, if you could just focus on construction, uh, as a blacksmith, um, but he, he knows that he can't get everybody out of the situation, that he can't necessarily get himself and his son out of the situation. So he, he needs to connect with her, with veil, uh, in a way, because she's now the way out for uh, him, especially their son, uh, ragno, uh, where he, he needs her.

Speaker 3:

But he is also trying to be protective and trying to uh move, move, ragno, their, their child, sort of away from getting emotionally involved with his returned mother, uh, which is an impossible task. Uh, so you have that, those situations where you, you have a kid, uh, I I've had this happen where, like, something is going on around us and I'm trying to like take my daughter's shoulders and like point her in the opposite direction and like say, go that way, like don't look at that thing, uh, and and it inevitably doesn't work like she'd be like why are you moving me that way?

Speaker 1:

I want to see what's over here and then I want to see the forbidden thing yeah, sees what, whatever's going on, it never worked, yeah, um.

Speaker 3:

So so he's uh kind of rightly worried about situation.

Speaker 3:

He doesn't know why this happened.

Speaker 3:

Um, uh, nobody really knows why it happens, um and, and they all just got lucky in that she was discovered by somebody she knew, uh and, and happened to be captured at a time where it was possible to bring her back.

Speaker 3:

Her soul, her spirit, as we talked about before, was ready to give up, like I can't make a change, I can't do anything with this body, there's nothing left for me to do and I can't watch this happen anymore. So they kind of go into a dormant, sort of sleepy state where nothing really is going to happen. But they're able to catch her before that time of giving up happens, which is kind of a lucky thing. And there's also a little bit of static electricity that pops between her and her son when her son reaches out to touch her as a zombie and and held pulls him away but gets close enough to have a little bit of a zap, and that's that's kind of my uh little little like well, something happened here. I don't know what it is, but I need to represent it somehow it was clear um some unexplained magic yeah well, I also unexplained it.

Speaker 1:

Yeah Well, I also Unexplained it's already magical.

Speaker 3:

It's fine yeah.

Speaker 2:

I like your use of color to demonstrate the magic, like scary red, demon eyes, that sort of. Again, the way you use light, almost like it's refracting off I don't know, like when I'm, you know when you're in a, so you have a dirty windshield at night and the light's kind of like yeah, you should, everybody just go read return so you can see what I'm talking about. Because I can't read it, I should have to go read it and and, uh, what I wanted to do with those, um, with the eyes.

Speaker 3:

So the eyes of the zombies all glow red. I wanted to have a definite, uh, a definite visual signifier that this person was a zombie.

Speaker 3:

Uh, creepy red eyes are fun, and then I can also use those eyes as as motion lines, as speed lines, basically, yeah that's the word uh, because I'm doing a lot of a lot of painting in these books and things like that and speed lines are tough to do in painting get that motion across. So, uh, if I can uh use those, the trails of those red eyes to kind of show what happened in the two seconds before this panel when is that zombie moving? Where did they come from? I can use those eyes and that kind of long exposure look so that they leave trails behind, and then that also helps with the colored metaphors of the whole thing. The zombies are red and the spirits are blue, so we can get that sort of color, color storytelling across.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. Yeah, it's important to make those distinctions too, because you know, if you're not, if you're not making those distinctions, it can all kind of blend together. I can think of so many movies where exactly that thing happened, where it's just like-. But you can't tell very well, they're in the past and everything's sepia tone, but they're in the present and everything's still sepia tone. Oh, do you mean the third season?

Speaker 2:

of Black Summer, where I had no idea what was going on. Yes, anyways, we won't trash talk that.

Speaker 1:

I love that show, but that was very annoying.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, that was an editing issue. For sure, it's very clear what's happening here. But what's interesting, though, for me, is like there's still, when I was reading it, there's still the tension of like I'm not sure if Vale's fully in control and there's this one panel that released it out for me, where Ragnar goes to hug her and her face looks like she might bite him. Like, are you going to bite him? So you're very good at demonstrating that tension of the will. She won't she.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, and it's something that comes out through the second part, where when her family, and especially her son, is in in danger, like her, her zealousness to protect him is something that will start to separate her from control of her body, so like if she's going to run towards her son, her spirit starts to get out in front of the zombie body.

Speaker 2:

Wow.

Speaker 3:

And then, like sort of the further that she gets in, the furthermore she's concentrating on something else. Further that she gets in, the further more she's concentrating on something else, or she can start to lose control of that, of that body, and it starts to revert back to being a being, a zombie, being, uh, in that situation, a danger, and can end up being more of a danger than whatever was was going on. Uh. So as those uh things sort of pile up, hal becomes reasonably more concerned about this, as does Vale, like she can see that she might be the problem in these situations sometimes.

Speaker 2:

Cue Taylor Swift's song yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think it also makes me think about again. We're not parents, but I've certainly witnessed that when people have children there is some sort of anchor. That happens in terms of choices. Maybe you can I don't know if that resonates for you but because you are a parent, but does that?

Speaker 3:

like is there something about having a kid that changes your choices, asking for other people like me, who don't have them Absolutely, absolutely, I think it does. Uh, cause you're, you're, um, you have another person who is absolutely reliant on you. Like you could, you could have this with a partner. You could have this with a? Um, you know, a sibling or another family member, but, um, in a lot of those situations you could say like, oh, they need me, but like they could also figure it out on their own if they needed to.

Speaker 3:

But with a kid you don't have that, that ability. Like, you might have a bad day, and then you still have to have another day tomorrow. It doesn't, doesn't go away. You still have to be there for your kid, no matter what's going on, and you have to make decisions that will that will definitely affect them, and they have no control over a lot of those decisions. So you want to at least me, I always want to be fair about that too. Like you don't really have control over this. The best I can do is talk to you about whatever's going on, but I make this decision and whatever's going on, um, but you know, I to make this decision and it's going to affect you, um, so you want to be you always want to be honest about what's going on but it definitely affects your thinking, uh, as to how you live your life and what you're going to do and and I know like if I stay up real late working on something I can, I can get through the next day, but will I be real effective?

Speaker 3:

well, you know, will I be crabby, will like one thing go wrong and then blow up and like that's not the person that I want to be, so that that will affect when you know what I want to do. Um, you know, in terms of schedule, in that case, like it was just me, I could stay up all night and I could zombie my way through the next day, and then it'll be fine. Yeah, yeah, I have somebody else to take care of. And that there's also a I call it like terrible forgiveness of children and that there's some within it, within a kid like that kid instinctively knows that they're reliant on you for life, to be protected, to be fed and all that.

Speaker 3:

And to some extent, like you could be real mean to your kid, and your kid is still going to like you. Your kid is still going to like, want to be with you, to like want to be with you. Yeah, uh, and I don't, uh, I don't have anything in my life that would necessarily uh, cause that, uh necessarily like, trigger that to an extreme degree, but like, yeah, like I could get mad at my kid and then she's still gonna want to like, see me later, which is sometimes weird. Like you don't necessarily get all the feedback you would get from a, an adult.

Speaker 3:

Like, if you treat an adult, you shout at an adult, they're not going to talk to you again, they don't have to talk to you unless it's a reality tv show, in which case they're going to make sure they yell lots at the time yeah, but like your kid is kind of always going to love you to some extent no matter what to sometimes to their own detriment yeah a creepy idea as a, as a parent, like I want my kid to be free not to talk to me if I do something uh, incredibly shitty to them so I know you're not a boomer. I mean also, I'm looking at you that too, but like, yeah, it's, it's uh, that part's kind of scary.

Speaker 2:

Like you don't necessarily get all the feedback you would get from from an adult, like yeah, that you did something wrong brave on multiple fronts, jason, two things that are scary one going out and like putting your art out there, and two, being a parent. I think is is a is a. Choose your own adventure.

Speaker 1:

That I said, hell no yeah, I have to agree, like there's so much but you're conscientious about it and I think that goes a long way.

Speaker 2:

Um, whereas I, you know, I love my boomer parents, but because I'll again, they raised me and I love them and I remember idealizing them and at one point realizing like around eight was when I woke up to the who, my dad actually is. Yeah, they're people too, regardless of yeah, they're people and they were like they act the way they do because of something too yeah, oh yes. Following the lines of generational trauma has been a whole hobby of mine in therapy for many years. Absolutely.

Speaker 1:

I remember my horror at realizing that, like in my mid thirties, looking back and being like holy shit, I was raised by 20 year olds.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah absolutely. Yeah, I would have absolutely fucked a kid up Like now. I think I could probably do it, okay, but I hear what you're saying of um, if you don't get sleep, like now, I think I could probably do it Okay, but I hear what you're saying of um, I mean, if you don't get sleep, you're going to be not as great to your kid and like that. Then you have the terror. I'm imagining the terrible guilt that goes along with that.

Speaker 3:

Absolutely yeah, and to some extent, uh, I always feel like if you want to be a parent, you also have to be to fuck up your kid. In some way. There will be something for them to talk about in therapy. Hopefully, as an adult There'll be something because, as we talked about, I am still a human coming from a direction, coming from a perspective as well, and I just my goal is to make those conversations with therapists as untraumatizing as possible.

Speaker 2:

That's wonderful, and you also have a kind of person that maybe one day, as I think, a healthy family. This is like, okay, this is Leah's fantasy, it's not happened. But you know, when your parent comes to you or you come to your parent, you're like hey, these things happen. And then you, Jason, say I'm sorry about that, I did my best, but I didn't realize the impact.

Speaker 3:

That would be my hope, yeah, that I can have that learned and wise response.

Speaker 2:

You're my second dad of this Zymba Club season where I'm like I wish you were my dad and I know we're the same age-ishh like it's kind of. It's interesting, just because you know not getting into my sob story but every time I talk to somebody who is a parent, who has conscientiousness like you, uh, it does like it's healing a little bit, just so you know anytime I hear your parents like trying their best and figuring it out. And a little bit of humility it goes a long way yeah yeah, I'll be talking about that with my therapist.

Speaker 2:

I'll be like okay, therapist, why is it that I keep interviewing um creators who I wish were my dad?

Speaker 3:

let's unpack that it'll be a good conversation yeah, have I made you uncomfortable. No, I can make your uh, your your conversation with the therapist as untraumatizing as possible. I have to accept that, uh, the work that I do might, uh might trigger some people into having some conversations hopefully healthy that'd be fine yeah, well, you also fine goal.

Speaker 2:

You have influence on other young people because you teach comic storytelling at camps I do, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3:

So I've done uh, some uh week-long summer camp, so like three hours a day, five days, and then done some like after five, so like adult classes over, say, five weeks, focusing on comic storytelling and learning how to kind of structure a story.

Speaker 3:

And learning how to kind of structure a story because that was something that I learned in writing this book, doing lots of research, figuring out how this works, because writing was always a scary thing for me that I can do art, I had ideas for stories, but I didn't know how to make that, do anything. And then for a while I worked with lots of writers and that stuff is fun, um, but uh, it was kind of a uh, well, I, I let someone else handle that because drawing something is enough and it certainly is. Um, it's like it's a lot if you're working with a writer, but you know, giving notes to kind of make it into the story you want it to be right, just try to write it yourself, yeah, so I was always scared of that storytelling aspect of writing, and this was I'm getting over this hurdle where I had done like 24-hour comic day, which is a try to make 24 pages in 24 hours terrible comics marathon okay, terrible comics that made me feel like what?

Speaker 1:

and you're alive after that?

Speaker 3:

yes, yeah, so I have done that. Uh, I've run the event uh, a couple different comic book shops, um, it is a national event uh, sort of, organized um by uh scott mcleod, uh, making comics and understanding comics, and that uh was was one of the originators of this. But uh, it usually takes place first weekend of october. If anyone out there is interested in doing it, coming up, uh, coming up. Uh, you may have a library or a comic book shop near you that does this uh, but my events I would put on. We would start uh noon on a saturday and go to noon on a sunday and just don't come with a script. You come with.

Speaker 3:

I always tell people to come with an idea, figure out what you want to do, but no script. You sit down, you write, you draw and you try to put out 24 pages in 24 hours. So I had done that like five times now and come, come out with books each time. Wow, so kind of. At the end of that last one I was like, well, maybe my next challenge is to make a book that I am like really actually proud of in a longer period of time, because for me, like sitting down and ignoring everything else for 24 hours. It's kind of easy, uh, do you?

Speaker 2:

sleep.

Speaker 1:

This is really an important question to me no sleep wow I, I think, I like, I think that there's something that's really valuable about showing up to do something and making the commitment to do it poorly, because there's so much, uh, barrier in the way of somebody doing something, because they think it has to be good that if you're just yeah it does.

Speaker 3:

It removes that perfectionist, uh aspect to art and comic art uh, and and writing and to some extent, um, when you just have to get it done and you don't have to get it done, I always tell people to leave. If you're tired and you need to go, don't force yourself to stay. But uh, having done that a bunch, having knowing that I can sit down and kind of write a story, uh, like my first hour at these events would be just writing one through 24 and then kind of writing what happens on each page, uh, from my idea of what I want this story to be this year. So like I know that I could structure that. But how do I? How do I make that into a longer process? So, uh, that writing aspect was scary to me. So I wanted to hopefully take what I learned to other people and remove some of that, some of the anxiety that I felt starting in writing. So I wanted to kind of pass some of that on in a fun way.

Speaker 2:

That's lovely.

Speaker 3:

I'm curious if any of the kids have taught you something about storytelling that you didn't expect through the camps just just mostly a freedom of a freedom of idea, uh, in in coming up with kind of what happens next or how does this story work.

Speaker 3:

Uh, our first class is usually what I call the magic trick, where I have a plot generator book and it's just like three random pages with like characters or settings on there or whatever is happening in the story, just like three sentences, and you flip to random pages and you come up with something.

Speaker 3:

So I would have some kids choose different pages, flip through randomly, pick ones you like, and then we take that idea that just randomly happened in front of us and get a three, four act story out of that by saying, okay, here's our setup, here's the things we need to include, like, how do we open this story? How does this work? And we put together this outline on this ridiculous story idea and with the hopes that people see that and say, well, if we, if we did it with this random thing that we came up with, uh, if we were able to make a reasonable story out of that, surely I can do that with something that I care about, with a concept that I care about. Um, so when we're doing that, I'm asking, asking, asking the kids asking the students like what, ok, we need to do this part of the story. What happens next? What can we do? And they'll, they'll come up with all sorts of fun stuff.

Speaker 2:

Tell me the wildest thing they've come up with where you're like.

Speaker 3:

OK, I did.

Speaker 2:

I did have to.

Speaker 3:

We had a story that involved the mafia, and, and they also decided that the mafia lived in sewers. Uh, and, and they also decided that the mafia lived in sewers. And I tried to, I tried to explain them that the mafia was like classy criminals. They were very insistent that they lived in the, in the sewers. We had a sewer mafia, why not?

Speaker 2:

I feel like somebody was influenced by the ninja turtles somewhere.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, in that yeah, I kind of want to know about the sewer mafia the sewer mafia what are? They running down there, I don't know dealing in poop they're like you want your wastewater to be drained.

Speaker 3:

You go through us otherwise this stuff is backing up in the streets it's a very big position of power. It should be very, very attractive to the mafia. We can shut down the sewers mafia. Get on this very big position of power. It should be very very very attractive to the mafia. Yeah Like oh yeah, we can. We can shut down the sewers yeah.

Speaker 1:

Mafia, get on this.

Speaker 2:

No, don't. Nobody from the mafia is listening to this right now, just giving them their million dollar idea, jason.

Speaker 3:

So that was a. That was a story about an ex con and a a and a kid who didn't have some sort of orphan kid and they get stuck in a TV show was kind of the setup for that story. So we had them like on the set of a TV show and they got to work on the TV show and the mafia is trying to take them out while they work on the TV show. It was fun, it was. It was fun. It's always a fun, a fun trip and I've done that a couple of times, I've done that in all the classes, done on a couple of times at at comic conventions too, as like a panel.

Speaker 2:

That's fun, I would take that class, if it was like a virtual version. Yeah, what's it like in terms of like, having accomplished two parts of your four-part series so far?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, it feels really great Like I'm more than halfway through the story, so that's good. I hit the halfway point, you know, around page 77, aiming towards about 155 page books. So I hit my halfway point and that feels great. Had a great campaign for the first part one one uh little like 88 people, a little over three thousand dollars for printing books and and in my case, like I don't have other people to pay at this point.

Speaker 3:

So a kickstarter for me is is more of like how many, how many copies does everyone want me to print of this thing? Uh, and and how many people want to buy a copy? So I have relatively low goals and that's just kind of my minimum print run that I want to send out. So it's more that the story is done. You can see it on the website. You can see me making progress on new pages before we get to the part three, kickstarter. So you know backers will know that the story is done and exists. This is just kind of a printing, a way to print, a way to pre-order and a way to sort of advertise the book.

Speaker 3:

But I was really happy with the way that first Kickstarter went and happy with the way this one's going with the, the way that first kickstarter went, and happy with the way this one's going, um and uh, it it feels, it feels good, like I have kind of rolled that, rolled that boulder, halfway up the hill at least, and so it would be very silly to stop now. Yeah, so you let that boulder go, it's just gonna roll back to the bottom and you're gonna get crushed exactly. So your child would not appreciate that. Yeah, the weight of the work is kind of behind me now where I just have to keep going and have met with good success and talk to people at Comic-Cons and podcasts here and that, and I'm just very happy with the, the reception of everything.

Speaker 2:

So it's it's more getting it out there and seeing, uh, seeing what can be made of it it's a huge accomplishment and because I have adhd, I have to ask if those are skulls on your wrist.

Speaker 3:

Yes, they are they are? They are, uh, little skull beads. I have these too. I don't know. I don't know what they're made of. Yeah, could be any weird bones, I don't know. I don't know what they're made of. Yeah, could be any weird bones, I don't know.

Speaker 2:

I have a skull. They're not plastic. I have a skull bracelet. Sorry, this is this. We should just call this the ADHD Buckle Podcast. Like this beautiful shiny thing, yeah.

Speaker 1:

Speaking of that thing that you were talking about just now. What's on your wrist? Yeah, that you were talking about just now. What's on your wrist?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, not the Kickstarter, but where'd you get that bracelet? But we obviously will have everything in the show notes, but if there was one place you want people to go right now, it'd be the Kickstarter to check it out. They can get books one and two all in like one printed volume.

Speaker 3:

So there'll be two separate pieces. So the Kickstarter is titled Returned Part One and Two of Four, so mainly selling part two, but part one is available as an add on. So if you are new to the story, you go here, you back part two and in the process of confirming, of checking out on Kickstarter, there'll be a page that comes up that says what are your add-ons and then at that point you can add on a digital PDF of the book which is available internationally. You can add on a print copy of part one and a couple other options.

Speaker 3:

There's an artist edition that I've been doing which is all the black and white art with all the lettering and able to be read that way. I had a lot of people excited about the black and white art, uh, with all the lettering and able to be read that way. I love people excited about the black and white art. Uh, when I show it at at conventions and then I have to explain, I'm also coloring it and they say, well, that's dumb. They say, yeah, well, they haven't seen your colored parts.

Speaker 2:

If they say but then I show them the colored pages.

Speaker 3:

I'm like, oh, that's good coloring too I want to give. I want to give people the chance to read it how they want to read it, kind of like the Grindhouse edition and the fancy glossy edition. Yeah, that's a smart idea.

Speaker 2:

Do you have any art prints Asking?

Speaker 3:

for me because I love collecting art on my walls on this campaign, for the, for the four part campaigns that I'm doing. They're mostly about hey, here's a book, read a book. I don't have a lot of extra stuff on these, on these campaigns, partly because I'm still producing the book and kind of everything that I would offer beyond. The book takes away from making the next book.

Speaker 2:

How dare you not offer 8,000 other things on top of? All the 80-hour work week, plus work at home dad situation.

Speaker 3:

Now what I want to do is, when I get past putting out books one through four on Kickstarter, then doing a collected edition after everything's done. So that collected edition would be the place where you're going to find some more, uh, more interesting or Chotsky, chotsky type things. Uh, but in terms of other things that I'm offering in this Kickstarter, there's, um, uh, there's a book plate edition where you can get, uh, a little sticker like a four by four uh sticker that I draw a uh, custom four by four sticker that I draw a custom unique zombie on. That's awesome. So everybody can get a book plate edition with a custom zombie. There's the artist edition.

Speaker 3:

I have a couple of retailer tiers where you can get multiple books at a discount, and then I also have the, the original art tier, so you can get a copy of the book. You get a copy of the artist edition. Basically, that's the. That's the high tier, so you can get a copy of the book. You get a copy of the artist edition Basically, that's the high tier. And then you also get to pick one of the original inked art pages at the end of the campaign. So, everybody, it's a first come, first serve system. So I put up a web page of all the pages I still have available, and then you get to pick that in the order in which you backed. So you get everything and you get a piece of original art. That's very cool.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I love that and the artwork people listening with their ears you don't know, you don are you doing? Go to the Kickstarter, go check it out. If you're on a budget, go look at it online, because, again, you are very awesome for having this option available for everyone. I really really appreciate that, because not all of us can do it, but if you can support and get it physically, that is, I think, an awesome thing to have in your hands, and I definitely want a piece of original art, jason. That would be very cool.

Speaker 3:

Excellent. Yeah, gotta go back to the Kickstarter. Yeah, and you can go read it and share that online on your social media Not you particularly, but the reader.

Speaker 2:

Well, we're also doing that, we're already doing that.

Speaker 3:

The reader out there in podcast land. Give it a read and then uh share it on on your social media as well. That's a that's a great way to uh to pay for for reading of the book. Uh, if you enjoy it, give it to somebody else to support. It's a very easy thing to to give to people because it's only that link and then, um, and yeah, if you're able to come into the Kickstarter and add to that, and then that only makes it more possible for me to write another book when this is done.

Speaker 2:

I love that. That is what we want to see for you, Jason. Well, it has been an absolute pleasure to have you on the show. Thank you for all of your patience with our technical difficulties. It was a joy, dad, if I may say. I feel so awkward saying that, but I had to commit. Is there anything else we haven't you want to mention before we finish today?

Speaker 3:

Well, if you want to find me online, all of my social media stuff is at strutzart S-T-R-U-T-Z-A-R-T. I always go on all the new social medias to reserve my name uh, so I don't have to give multiple handles out. So everything's at struts arts and you can find me uh on youtube. You can watch me uh make all of the pages uh. You can go read all the pages and then you can go share it uh online. Find me at all my social media uh to keep up with the the campaign and always let people know when new pages are going up once we get back to posting.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, all the links will be in the description. I'm definitely going to check you out on YouTube because I love watching people draw.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I didn't know about that. That's awesome yeah.

Speaker 1:

But thanks for joining us today. Yeah, thank you so much. If you want to support the podcast, you can leave a rating review, kind of like what Jason was talking about. You could send us a three-minute voicemail at 614-699-0000006. There's three zeros. I gave it a lot more. I don't know why. I've had a lot of caffeine at this point it's not working. You could also sign up for our newsletter that I've been really bad at putting out, but you can sign up for it. You can do it. It might go to your spam folder. Or you can follow us on Instagram at zombiebookclubpodcast. If you want to go deeper into the apocalypse, deeper than we are right now in our current apocalypse, you could join the brain munchers zombie collective on discord. The links are in the show notes. I mentioned this before with the kickstarter right up top yeah, you know that's up top.

Speaker 1:

Click those ones first.

Speaker 2:

The end is nigh baby, bye, bye, bye, don't die bye.

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