Zombie Book Club

10 Must Have Roles for Your Zombie Apocalypse Team | Zombie Book Club Ep 124

• Zombie Book Club • Season 3 • Episode 124

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Using Deepa Iyer’s Social‑Change Ecosystem framework, we match each of its ten roles—Weaver, Experimenter, Frontline Responder, Visionary, Builder, Caregiver, Healer, Disruptor, Storyteller, and Guide—to iconic characters from The Walking Dead. From Glenn’s bridge‑building hustle to Michonne’s charter writing chronicles, we show how those archetypes keep hope, logistics, and morale alive when the dead rise.

Check out Deepa Iyer's framework to name your own apocalypse strength, spot gaps in your crew, and pair complementary roles. Let us know your archetype, and let’s turn the zombie apocalypse into organized community action.



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SPEAKER_03:

Welcome to Zombie Book Club. The only book club for the book is a framework, which I assume is something that goes in a doorway. No Dan. I am Dan, and when I'm not inspecting frameworks in various doorways, I am writing a book about an anthropology student who uses her knowledge of societal structures to survive a zombie apocalypse. And this is the first time I've actually pitched a specific character in my book.

SPEAKER_00:

Wow. The main character. Can I say our name?

SPEAKER_03:

No.

unknown:

Okay.

SPEAKER_00:

I'm Leah. And speaking of frameworks, I'm pretty sure that I'm Bob the Builder. And you build frameworks. I'm a builder in the framework we're going to talk about today, which is about survival roles in the apocalypse. Oh, okay. Yeah. Today is a casual dead. So we'll be doing some life updates. We're going to talk about some options to buy gifts from indie authors and local folks instead of corporations that are the devil. Because this is the week to be boycotting them, if there's ever a week to do it. Yeah. And then we're going to be exploring what roles each one of us would play in the zombie apocalypse. This is a long awaited episode in my own brain. Yeah. It's it's kind of like we haven't done it yet.

SPEAKER_03:

Because while while you put together this episode, I was actually daydreaming a very similar topic because it was, you know, research for the book. Yeah. So uh so when I saw that when I saw this in the notes, I'm like, whoa, Leah's doing a similar thing. Except yours is actually based on something and not just the random machinations of my adult brain. A framework, some might say. Yeah. Some kind of thing that goes in a doorway.

SPEAKER_00:

And the good news is that these roles are useful in zombie apocalypse, but they're also useful in the revolution. They're useful in just being a great community member. Yeah. And odds are you're probably already doing it. So it's just about extending it into more difficult circumstances and thinking about how you could be a little more prepared to do that in a zombie apocalypse and other forms of apocalypse.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah. And let us know what framework you are. What framework they are? Yeah. Which one? What role they are in the framework. What frameworks?

SPEAKER_00:

I am Do you build frameworks indoors?

SPEAKER_03:

Are you a carpenter?

SPEAKER_00:

I'm having a flashback to one of my old bosses saying that I hate frameworks inside of frameworks, which that either means something to you or means nothing to you. So we'll move on. We release episodes every Sunday, so subdoodle-doo. Yeah, I put that one in there. Yeah. Also, reviews are nice. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

Reviews. Um, five stars, please.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, we got a really nice email recently, but I don't have permission to share it. So oh, okay. But it was nice. It was really nice. Did you tell me about it? I did, but you probably forgot. Oh, I did. I'll tell you later.

SPEAKER_03:

Leah, we have a we have groans from the horde, Leah.

SPEAKER_00:

From the Facebook horde. Yeah. What's Facebook like? I, you know, it's I will say that there are people on there and they want to talk. They really are. And they want to talk to each other, and that's really cool. So I am re-embracing Facebook.

SPEAKER_03:

You know, our our zombesties out there have convinced me to come back to Facebook. It's like I I gave up on Facebook like 2015.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, this is a big deal for Dan. I gave up on Facebook like maybe five years ago, but I'm back. Uh Zombie Book Club Podcast Zombesties is our Facebook group. And I asked, in honor of the season of lots of food eating, uh, what would you make from your own pantry for a holiday meal in the zombie apocalypse? Only non-perishable items allowed. For those of you who have listened to a lot of our interviews, you know this is sort of a spin-off of a question that we ask people who are on the show. And I got a lot of really good answers, some disgusting. Oh. Yeah. Uh, I again totally forgot to ask for permission, so I'm just gonna read some of them. One person said, Pop tarts. It's all I'm legally permitted to cook. Uh apparently they have 72 different kinds in their cupboard. 70 in one cupboard. In one cupboard. That's too many. That's how you prepare for the apocalypse. Um Pop Tarts.

SPEAKER_03:

You know what? I I appreciate your blood sugar's low. I appreciate this prepper haul of only Pop Tarts.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, only pop pop pop pop pop pop pop tarts.

SPEAKER_03:

You know what? There's a small amount of vitamin C in each Pop Tart. They're not gonna get scurvy.

SPEAKER_00:

Here's one that really grossed me out. Oh. Tuna corn and pasta casserole.

SPEAKER_03:

I mean, I can see it.

SPEAKER_00:

It's not something I want to eat, but I feel like I used to eat tuna casseroles at some point in my life, and I probably like them, but the idea of them just it makes me think about like all the bad ones that I've had that are not, you know, they're like really soggy and fishy. I'm not really a fish fan. I'm vegan now, but like I don't eat, uh I never liked fish.

SPEAKER_03:

Um I don't think I've ever had a tuna casserole. Um, but I I did have like uh a period where I was obsessed with tuna sandwiches. Um I used to go to the corner uh grocery store that they like had pre-made sandwiches, and one of those things was a tuna sandwich. And it was just it was so it was so plain and and basic, but I loved it.

SPEAKER_00:

See, oddly enough, there was a tuna sandwich that I did love at this place called Fukafi, which was a Canadian place in downtown Toronto. Um, and it w if you think about it from a Canadian accent, it's Fucafe. Fuck off, eh? I get it. I like that place. Let's go. They had really good um tuna sandwiches where they put cranberry in it. That was good. And I think it was like provolone cheese. Yeah, I could see that. Yeah. Um, okay, another one, wild turkey and rice soup. That actually sounds edible.

SPEAKER_03:

You know, I um I I recall this one when I checked when I checked the Facebook and know who it was. And I I had to point out, um, I replied to that one. I had to point out that uh that sounds like a terrible combination. You cannot pour wild turkey bourbon into rice and call it soup. That is awful. And you should be ashamed of yourself.

SPEAKER_00:

I knowing the person, I'm gonna just say is Lori Calcatera of Path of the Pale Rider Fame. She's been on the show so much, I feel like she'll forgive us for sharing that it was hers. And I'm pretty sure that if anybody has a pantry that's ready for the apocalypse other than Sarah Lyons Fleming, it's Laura Lori Calcatera. Uh here's another one that I was like actually excited about. Meatless chili. Yeah. Yeah. I have beans, chili mix, dice tomatoes, and tomato sauce already. That's perfect. Everybody should have that in their cupboard.

SPEAKER_03:

Uh uh most of most of our non-perishable like long-shelf storage supplies for the apocalypse could only make could only make chili. Or soup. Yeah. Chili. Make a good veggie soup, a good lentil veggie soup. If you know, if you don't add the taco seasoning, it's soup. If you do, it's chili. And that's that's our entire apocalypse plan is to just sit down here in the bunker and eat chili.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. And then uh we've got all like a tuna, a tuna theme happening. Green beans, chili, pasta, and tuna anything. I don't know what those things like together.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, I think that kind of makes the tuna casserole.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, and then last but not least, jellied cranberry sounds good. Yeah, the the kind that comes in the can. Yeah, but shaped like the can with red beans and rice. And I I feel like this is one of those ones that sounds kind of gross, but maybe it would be really I love red beans and rice.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah. Um, as somebody who has recently mixed cranberry sauce and stuffing, um, because yesterday was uh what we are referring to as giving wean.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

Um, that's what we celebrate is giving wean. Uh, yeah, it was an excellent combination. So I could see how that would also be comparable. I don't know what to say with a giving wean.

SPEAKER_00:

Short answer. Um I call it the day I wished a lot of people happy yummy food day that was established to create a false narrative about this country and is actually about the mass genocide of Indigenous Peoples Day. Yeah. That like, I, you know, sometimes being ignorant and white, like it it was really nice. I'm gonna be honest. Yeah. Um obviously, obviously, I think it's better that we know. Um, but it feels a little bit like everybody's around you walking around being like, this is a great day. And I'm like, um, um no, it's not about to ruin your day.

SPEAKER_03:

Here's the history. I remember learning about all of that, like in grade school, you know, like, oh, the the Native Americans came and they had a big feast and they were friends. And I I knew what happened after, because you know, I watched Westerns. I knew that it didn't go well after that. And I'm just like, how long were they friends?

SPEAKER_00:

Uh, not very long, and that was after the diseases from Europeans like wiped out a huge number of the Wampanoag.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

And uh they were, yeah, they decided to help some folks out, and then those folks decided to mass murder them and and keep their scalps.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, and uh yeah, yeah. I'm like, I I I love that you're trying to sell me on this, like they were friends thing, but like a year later they were killing each other.

SPEAKER_00:

So do you know when the myth was really started and like more, I don't know what started, but like really established in American history? Can you take a guess? Oh, it's gotta be really recent.

SPEAKER_03:

I'm gonna say 1896.

SPEAKER_00:

I don't know the exact date, but I know Abraham Lincoln helped to solidify it because we needed a national myth to make us all feel better after fighting with each other about the other form of genocide that was happening through uh the enslavement of African peoples who are brought over against their will. So we were like, you know what? Let's take another horrible thing that we continue to do in this country to like make everybody feel more okay about the war we just fought against each other. Let's just let's let's whitewash it and make our feels like literally, because it's not for anybody else, really. Like it was, yeah, it's it's white nationalism essentially. So um this episode is not about the history of Thanksgiving, but I highly recommend if you don't know a lot about it and you're like, whoa, these people are super weird and left wing, just go just read about it. There's a great book by Roxanne Dunbar Ortiz called An Indigenous People's History of the United States. You'll get all the information you need there. Yeah, read that book. Yeah. Uh one might say there's zombies in it called white people.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, so it's so it's a zombie book. Yeah, basically.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Speaking of other things that happen this time of year, we all know that everybody's frantically buying stuff for their loved ones.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah. Um, today is is Black Friday.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

Um, I was gonna go to the store and get wood pellets for our stove, and then I pulled into the parking lot and I was like, hell no, not doing that. And uh also I kind of forgot that. Um we're kind of like on a thing.

SPEAKER_00:

A a boycott? A boycott.

SPEAKER_03:

That's the word I was looking for.

SPEAKER_00:

Um the boycott doesn't include things that are required to live.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

You know, like if you need to get food, you get food. If you need to get fuel to keep our house warm so we don't freeze, which is pellets. No, we freeze, Leah.

SPEAKER_03:

That's how we make the corporations pay by our own suffering.

SPEAKER_00:

But the the real the real test is like withstanding the bombardment of ads for things that normally cost a lot more and suddenly don't. Um, I have gotten so many texts today from things I've signed up for to get 20% off at some point in my life. And it it's hard to, it's really hard to say no, we are trained, I am trained to consume. Um, so what we did as an antidote for this for ourselves and hopefully for some of you is we're creating a holiday guide this week to support zombie authors in the age of AI and corporate overlords, because there's a lot of great stories out there that are written by humans, not AI. Uh, and a lot of them are from like different subgenres. So even if the people you love are maybe not like zombie apocalypse fans, the point of these threads we're posting on Instagram is to compare um zombie books that we know and love to comparable other genres. So, like if you like um thrillers, read Joe Salazar's The Dead Weight, for example. If you like murder mysteries, read Talc by Jenna Chris Font. So that's what we're basically doing. We're gonna give you a whole list every day with different themes for your loved ones to maybe buy for them and just for yourself.

unknown:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Dan's just staring at me vacantly.

SPEAKER_03:

Uh life updates, yeah. That was unintelligible. Life updates, Dan. Life updates. We have life updates. I have a big life update. You're gonna share today. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Whoa okay.

SPEAKER_03:

I mean, I have many updates. Everybody prepare yourself. I am unemployed.

SPEAKER_00:

Yay! We're a household of two unemployed people right now. Dan, can you insert an air horn after that?

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, I'll just do an air horn. I'm it's like just as good as a sound effect, really. Um, I'm really good at air horns. Uh so yeah, me being unemployed is a normal thing that happens every single year. I I am a seasonal worker because I do paving. And when the snow falls, it makes it hard to pave and dig holes in the ground um because of ice and stuff. And I am happy to take that time off after an entire eight months of 14-hour days.

SPEAKER_00:

Of grinding. Of grinding. We were watching Furiosa. Is that the whole thing? What is the whole Fury Road? Furiosa.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, well, there's like a, you know, like it's it's what's the movie called a Mad Max saga. Like Colon, a Mad Max saga.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. So picture Mad Max saga, and there's all kinds of horrifying things happening in very large machines that you wouldn't want your loved one to be in. Yeah. And Dan's like, yep, that was that that happened this summer. It's like, that doesn't make me feel very good about your job.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah. I mean, I'm I'm watching Furiosa, and like they're there's people like crawling around underneath trucks where the while they're driving and and battling and throwing uh you know like fireballs at each other. Things are breaking. People are getting sucked under wheels. There's explosions, chains, and uh, and I'm like, yeah, it's kind of like work.

SPEAKER_00:

That's that feels like a normal day to me. Great movie though. I'm not usually a huge fan of action, but I really enjoyed that film.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, it was it was a great time. If you haven't watched Furiosa, and you especially if you liked uh any of the Mad Max movies, it's it really gives a lot of um a lot of that world-building context to all of the things. Like that's that's what I found really satisfying about is just seeing all of these like little um these uh these fortresses and the warlords battling amongst each other. Um I have I have other good news too. Um I don't know. I it's it's something that I don't want to go into great detail about, but I got really good news from the VA about my disability claim, uh, which will make life really good for me um going forward. And uh and yeah, that's all I'm gonna say about that. Things are good.

SPEAKER_00:

Things are going going my way. It's acknowledging very significant harms that were done to you in your time in the US military, in the army.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, if if you've seen me walk, uh, you know, I ain't right.

SPEAKER_00:

I mean, you see, either of us walk. Uh Leah, do you have any updates? Yeah, I did my first full-on craft fair where nobody came. It was poorly attended, and all of the vendors left early, so I did too. I did cover my costs and I did get some practice at like set up. Um, and we've got our next one uh coming up, so that hopefully will do better. I've got a better idea around what really sells, which unsurprisingly in rural Vermont is drawings of farm animals. Go figure. It was interesting. The younger people, which there are not many in the state, liked the mandalas that I create and and liked my mushroom creations, but um the majority of the people I'm selling to are 15 over, and they sure love an alpaca drawing. That was like the number one. They just were like, Yes, I want this alpaca, and I was like, Great.

SPEAKER_03:

You just you just gotta become the uh the alpaca art person now. Like you're just you're just gonna churn it out like a factory.

SPEAKER_00:

The two chickens together did well, you know. Yeah, people love chickens. Everybody loves the sheep Finley Foresocks. Um, somebody asked me if I had a horse, and I realized I only had one horse drawing, and I was like, whoa, this is I need to draw more horses. So, anyways, hoping to do well in the next one. But it's been fun to explore, and I feel like it's the kind of thing that I'll be ready for uh when it's the summertime to do more serious fairs. I also met some amazing people who may be listening to this because one of them started listening to it. It was so slow, y'all, that they were like put it, they put it in their earbuds and started listening to our podcast. And then yells is like, hey, has Dan finished his book yet? And then we were like, no. Uh so that was really sweet. Um, but also indicates the level of no, like the most things that were bought by from me were bought by other vendors. Um, but it was good. And uh job interviews, I'll just say I've been doing a few. So I feel like maybe something is coming down the pike for me in January, realistically. I don't know how much job hiring stuff's gonna happen in December. I feel like the first two to three weeks max, uh, there might be some movement. So we'll see.

SPEAKER_03:

I mean, they might they might be uh looking to have your start date be like January 1st. Ew. I want the first week of it.

SPEAKER_00:

I agree, but like I mean, I'll take it if I if it's a must, I'll do it.

SPEAKER_03:

The strategic thinking is the beginning of the year. So start off a fresh, fresh year.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, that'd be nice. I'm really enjoying being unemployed with Dan. Yeah. It's been pretty great. Yeah. So let's let's get into it. Let's talk about what your role would be in the zombie apocalypse. Yeah. What's my role, Leah? We're gonna find out. I actually started to make a quiz, but I didn't get that far. If y'all are interested, I can give you a quiz and you can use it to it's like a BuzzFeed quiz, but for me. Yeah, it's about which of these roles do you think that you are would play in the zombie apocalypse? We are exploring Deepa Iyer's social change ecosystem framework, um, but through the world of the Walking Dead, because the Walking Dead, I think, is one of the most well-known zombie worlds. Yeah. And so we're gonna look at some different archetypes that are part of this social change ecosystem framework of different kinds of people that we're going to need in the zombie apocalypse, our communities right now. Uh, and basically the framework maps out 10 different roles people play in ensuring collective survival and justice from weavers. I don't mean just basket weavers, uh, to builders, to storytellers, healers, and disruptors. Oh, I want to be a basket weaver. I mean, you could be.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Uh, and I think the point here to remember is that every single one of these roles we're going to talk about is essential. Uh, it's essential in movements, it's essential in community, it will definitely be essential in a zombie apocalypse. And I know for myself, you know, sometimes I wish I was more of a disruptor. Um, like get out there and put my physical body on the line, but for a variety of reasons, that hasn't been an option for me. Um, mostly physically lately. Like going to a protest is hard uh for me to just stand. Um, so, anyways, that's sometimes like I want to do that, but that's not necessarily my role, but I can support other people doing that. So you want to get into it, Dan? Yeah, let's get into it. I um what what are we what is it? Well, let's think about it. If walkers showed up tomorrow, what role would you play? Would you be the one keeping people calm? Would you be building out the camp and the walls to block them out? Would you be helping keep the hope alive? Would you be taking a risky stand when everyone else is hesitating? We want to hear from you. Send us a voicemail, 614-699-30006. I want a voicemail. I love them so much. Tell us which archetype you think you are in the uprising and why. Let's get into them.

SPEAKER_03:

And you know, I think uh I think a lot of people are gonna find that they they've got a certain percentage of themselves in like all of these things. Yeah. But the key is to like point out the place where you really, you really uh sparkle.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, like any per if this was a personality test, you know, you're some mix of many of these things. But it's like which ones do you think are dominant in your life right now? But also maybe like which ones do you wish you were doing more, or you feel like, hey, I could be good at that, and I just haven't given myself the chance to. Yeah. But I want to.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Uh so let's start with the first archetype, which is the weaver. The basket weaver? No. This is the definition from Deepa Iyer. We see the through lines of connectivity between people, places, organizations, ideas, and movements. So that role in the zombie apocalypse is about bringing survivor groups together, negotiating alliances, maintaining trust, helping communities collaborate rather than isolate. So a kind of a diplomat. Yeah. Yeah. Like who do you who comes to mind for you when you think about that kind of person who brings people together in the zombie apocalypse?

SPEAKER_03:

Oh, um. Maggie for me. I was just gonna say that, but I could the I kept on thinking Molly. Our friend Molly. Hi Molly. Yeah, well, also, also our friend Molly. But um, yeah, I mean that's that's what Rick saw in in Maggie was that uh that she had she had like something special in her that made her a great leader, and it was it was her ability to to reach across dials and bring people together.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, she was able to unite the hilltop, uh, the kingdom, and what did they call it? Oh, Alexandria. So two, three communities. Yeah. Two, three communities. Two, three. Yeah. Six, seven. Wah wah. Good one, Leah. Great joke. Um, but yeah, do you find yourself being the bridge builder? Are you really good at helping resolve and mediate conflict between people? Yeah. It's not always an easy role, but it's an important one.

SPEAKER_03:

You've also got a an uh character example here of uh Glenn, which I didn't think of immediately, but I think I think it's accurate. Um, because Glenn Glenn was like a bridge builder in a way. You didn't see it as much, but he was the person that found Rick and brought Rick into their camp. That's true. He went out of his way to do it. He helped build the bridge with the farm.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. That's uh and that's why we have Maggie in the later seasons. Yeah. Yep.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, and you know, I think I think you're gonna find a a whole bunch of examples of of this type of character. Um, and that's what that's what I love about the The Walking Dead is that like certain seasons, anyways, up to a certain number, they they put a lot of thought into what types of roles people are playing.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, and they make it more mundane if you're like, I don't know if I'm doing this, because this these feel like big examples. Are you the kind of person that like meets a person and thinks, oh my gosh, I should introduce them to this other person, they would love each other or they could collaborate. That's a weaver. When you see the connections and you see the potential of what can happen when more people work together than alone, and then you help facilitate those relationships. That's what it is.

SPEAKER_03:

So I don't think I'm a weaver. Like when you when you look at the um the visual graph that like has multiple points and has like the little the little uh graphic that shows like how much you are on one side and the other. Yeah. Uh mine is dead center in the middle for weaver. So you're not really a weaver. You're kind of no, I I avoid talking to people. Uh yeah, that's it's not me. That's not me.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. I think I'm a little bit more of a weaver. Definitely. I think I would put myself like that would be one of my stronger ones. I don't think it's my strongest because I do have deep introvert vibes and things like going to conferences, I hate them because I hate like I really appreciate uh and maybe the facilitator in me is a bit of a weaver because like if I can orchestrate an event where there's like a purpose and a oh a thing that you're doing together, that's not so scary. But like being put in a room with a bunch of people to just talk to, please, God no. Don't make me do it. Yeah, I can, but I don't want to.

SPEAKER_03:

But I do think that you have a special, a special knack, but especially I don't have.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. I mean, I'm definitely the connector in our community between you and I. Yeah. Um, I do all of the emotional labor with our neighbors. Yeah. Uh okay, next one. I do the aggression with our neighbors. All right. So low for Dan on the Weaver, me sort of moderate. Experimenter. Okay. This one immediately sounds to me like you. Curious if anybody else listening feels like they're an experimenter. We innovate, we pioneer and invent, we take risks and course correct as needed. So in the zombie apocalypse, that could be things like improvising tools, weapons, medicines, farming solutions, communication systems, just trying different kinds of survival strategies.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, I think this definitely rings pretty true for me. Um, yeah, it in in the past, you know, I've I've done a lot of uh I did a lot of electronics stuff in the army that I can't talk about. Um uh I built a race car. Um, I do a lot of stuff.

SPEAKER_00:

You also just like to experiment, I think, specifically. Like I like for example, I know some one of these episodes back there we talked about the pool debacle where Dan did a blow-up pool on the side of a hill, and I said, like, science, Dan, this isn't gonna go well. All the water is gonna be on one side and it's gonna collapse. And Dan was like, but I gotta know. That's like maybe the downside of the experimenter sometimes is like you know, the that like you gotta blow the thing up to know it will blow up.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah. I don't I don't know if that necessarily is going to help in the apocalypse, but you know what? I'm not afraid to fail. Yeah. That that's that's one thing. I'm I'm not afraid to do something the wrong way just to know that it's definitely not the way you're supposed to.

SPEAKER_00:

And you also course correct as needed because when that happened, I saw you go and start shoveling dirt on the lower part of the hill to try and make it look helps it start, you know, a little bit. But I think the classic character in Walking Dead, who we're gonna have a whole conversation about with Jack Callahan in a couple of weeks, the author of Zombie Nerd and the Half Term Harrowing in the upcoming Weird Water, is Eugene Porter, one of your favorite characters.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

So what does Eugene do that exemplifies an experimenter type?

SPEAKER_03:

Eugene is is a big brain nerd. Um who likes to tinker. Yeah. I mean, he's he's he is the apocalypse version of Bill Nye the Science Guy, or Mr. Wizard, if you're old enough to know who that is. Um he's he's got a wealth of scientific and engineering knowledge in his brain. And who knows why? We don't actually know what Eugene did. Um actually, I think he said that he was a science, uh high school science teacher, but like his he has an obsession for uh gadgets and electronics and science and yeah, he gets the radio up and working, yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

And talks to other communities, which is also a weaver thing. He sort of accidentally fell into being a weaver in that moment.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, he's not a very good weaver though. Um but he can accidentally do it from time to time.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes, but yeah, he figured out that he was making bullets.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Um, you know, he was showing off to the women uh Negan's harem, for lack of a better term, in the sanctuary by like making stuff blow up for them.

SPEAKER_03:

My favorite thing is he had a he had a uh a a nitrile glove that was that he filled with hydrogen and um and he needed to light a candle because he was gonna make it pop and blow up. And he says, I'm gonna light this candle. And they're like, Whoa, that's so cool! And he's like, No, really, I have to light this candle.

SPEAKER_00:

Um next one, number three, frontline responder.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

We address if you're a frontline responder, it means that you address community crises by marshalling and organizing resources, networks, and messages. You lead the defense during attacks, coordinate evacuations, ensure everyone knows where to go and what to do during emergencies.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, I think this is the one that comes to me like instinctually over intellectually. Um because I I do I do sometimes have a part of me that comes out, um, usually in the time of of crisis. Uh a lot like our example character here, um, Abraham, who just like you're you're compelled to act. Whether or not you want your feet to move or not, they start moving. Um, and that's uh so that's definitely me. Like, I don't think it's a good idea to be the frontline responder if you want to survive a zombie apocalypse. But I I have no doubt that zombies are walking up the driveway. I'm gonna be running out with whatever I can grab in my hand to bash their heads in.

SPEAKER_00:

I'm gonna be mad at you and trying to make you come inside and hide. But it is true. Like, without getting into details, you have uh helped people in your family with like very serious crisis, and you were the one that was essentially holding it together and making sure everybody had what they needed.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Um, so the example here is your other one of your favorite characters. So no surprise that these back-to-back that you really relate to are also some of your favorite characters in The Walking Dead.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah. Well, I I relate to them the most. Um, you know, I the the best example I can think of for this frontline responder, um Abraham, is this uh scene and I think season six of The Walking Dead. And he goes out, he's he's just become part of Alexandria. He's having a hard time finding his place where he fit. So he goes and volunteers to be part of this crew that's going to try to get these uh steel plates to go reinforce part of the wall. They're they're gonna continue building the wall outwards of Alexandria, and they have these big steel plates. And um zombies show up, and these people who have lived inside the walls for such a long time kind of they all panic and scatter. And he's the one that runs forwards towards the zombies to save somebody that got left behind because they, I don't know, twisted their ankle or something. And uh and from that point they saw how much of a leader he was in that specific in that specific way, and they they wanted him to be the foreman.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

Because not only could he respond as a could not only was he capable of the construction aspect of the job, but like he was also able to give commands to people who were in uh fight or flight mode and flighting, yeah, and got them to turn around and actually fight the zombies with him while he was he was taking a point and and taking on both the the larger amount of those zombies.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, you know who I think we personally know that's a bit of a frontline responder? It's an author they visited recently. Alice B. Sullivan, yeah. You know, I'll never forget. Oh us having a lovely fire and a bunch of sparks exploding like unexpectedly, and our old dog Nero, who sadly passed away recently, like walking towards it for whatever reason. And Alice just without any care for her own life, like literally shielded Nero. Yeah. That's a frontline responder impulse, if I ever saw one.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, definitely.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Um, number four, visionary. We imagine and generate our boldest possibilities, hopes, and dreams, and remind others of our direction. This is the person who keeps the hope alive, who makes the point of like, this is why we're doing this in the first place, and that things can be better, and let's work towards that. Um, you help people remember why survival matters. You guide long-term community direction, you inspire collective purpose.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, I think I'm a bit of that. Yeah. Um, you know, that's that's kind of my my thesis to the to the zombie apocalypse. It's like, look, yeah, the zombies and everything, and being hungry and not having electricity and having the, you know, shit in a bucket. That sucks. But you know what? We're good, we're we're working together towards a better future without the zombies.

SPEAKER_00:

This reminds me, we still haven't had our episode about pooping in the apocalypse. We'll uh call Sarah Lyons Fleming because she she definitely wants to talk about that. She does. Yeah. Um, yeah, this is the person I think you do have some visionary in you. I think a lot of the zombie author friends that we know have some visionary vibes. Yeah. The storytellers. Yeah, the storytellers, but also the people who are like, hey, this is a better way. So um I'm trying to think of a like a more mundane version, but like somebody who's like out there, maybe you wanted to create uh a tool library. And like you get people excited about doing that.

unknown:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

And then you help create it. I think like having a vision, a collective vision, really matters, especially in this time when it's really easy to just be mad at the way that all the things suck, and it's really hard to imagine anything different from what we have. And I really feel like the only way we're gonna get out of this capitalist hellscape that we're a part of, um, this racial capitalist hellscape that we're a part of, is to re like get to the root of it and imagine a different way of living, which is to destroy capitalism, basically.

SPEAKER_03:

So does this mean that like, because what I'm what I'm seeing is that like the visionary is like the hype man? And does that mean that flavor flav is a visionary?

SPEAKER_00:

Um, it's not just the hype man, that's kind of like a cheerleader role, which I don't know if there's one that's sort of like that. We'll get there. Um, it's more like they're providing a vision of what can be and rallying people behind it. So I don't know if flavor flavor was like doing that or if he was just basically the next person that was like, yeah, that's a good idea.

SPEAKER_03:

The good idea guy. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. The supporter. Yeah. But the visionary is like King Ezekiel, who like absolutely decided to make a fantasy world called the kingdom, where he was the king and had a pet tiger. If you've not seen this part of uh The Walking Dead, this is why you should.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

There's a tiger. A lot of people have criticized that part of this story, but I think it actually makes sense. Like he makes the kingdom, and the their whole process for getting through the zombie apocalypse is just by imagining the world to be something a little bit more magical.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

Where they have a king and the king has a tiger, and everyone kind of like they they they refer to themselves as knights um and warriors, and they they you know, they wear like motocross gear, but they're like, This is our armor. Yeah. Sure, this is for a BMX bike. Yeah. You know, this is someone that I so that some somebody bought this originally so that they could fall off their bike and not get hurt. But I'm gonna use it to fight zombies, and it's called armor, and I'm a knight, and that's the king, and that's the king's tiger over there.

SPEAKER_00:

Do you think Rick's a visionary? Yeah. At certain points, he certainly loses hope. Yeah. At different points. But I think, like, oh, you know who else is a visionary? Was uh the original builder of Alexandria. That's a very classic visionary. Yeah. What was her name?

SPEAKER_03:

Uh Diana.

SPEAKER_00:

Diana, yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

She was also the weaver.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

Um, not a frontline responder.

SPEAKER_00:

No. And again, you don't have to be good. This is the reminder, right? Of why we need each other. You you are likely not going to be good at all of these things.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

But somebody else will be. That's what's magical.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah. And if you team up with these 10 people, you'll you'll be doing good.

SPEAKER_00:

But yeah, some politicians can be really visionary, and they're the ones that people are inspired to follow. And Diana was a, I forget if she was a governor or what I think she was a senator. A senator.

SPEAKER_03:

Or a congressperson.

SPEAKER_00:

And so she was able to use that same thing of saying we could build something here.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

And let's do it.

SPEAKER_03:

I gotta also give credit to the governor.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. And Negan. Also visionaries, yeah. Yeah. What they were envisioning. Um, it's a good example of how these could be for good or bad. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

Well, the governor was gave a vision of something that was good. It's just that he was doing things behind the scenes that were bad.

SPEAKER_00:

Sure sounds like a lot of politicians. It sure does. Yeah. Um, I think that's a really good point. I mean, you know who else are visionaries? Is cult leaders.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

It's a fair point. Yeah. So we hope that those of you are listening who are visionaries are not that kind of visionary, you know, helping out create a better world. Uh, this archetype is the one that I feel like is solidly one of my stronger ones, which is a builder. Yeah, because you're Bob the Builder. Bob the Builder. We develop, organize, and implement ideas, practices, people, and resources in service of a collective vision. Uh, this definitely feels like me because I get excited when I hear other people's vision. And like I think most of my vision of the world that I'm excited about creating is come has come from other visionaries that I've listened to and been like, yes, I'm in, but I like to like make the systems and the processes and the things that actually make it happen. Like, I'm the person that if you give me a wild idea, if you want, we can sit down together and make a five-point action plan to get it done and incorporate some self-accountability processes so you don't just procrastinate and not do it. That's who I am. Yeah. I I did that once. Yeah, but you still didn't do it. I didn't do it.

SPEAKER_03:

I procrastinated.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, I can't, I'm not a magician. Um, roll in the zombie apocalypse. You'd be the person that's like creating the settlement settlement. Uh, you're organizing guard shifts, food systems, governance rules, creating shared routines. Like, I'd absolutely be the person that's like helping create um systems that make the community work.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, I'm better at showing up for guard shift, but like, you know, if there wasn't anybody else, I could, I could do those things.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, you need to be assigned.

SPEAKER_03:

But um, but I'm better at just showing up. That's kind of how I am at work is like they they keep on wanting me to take a more leadership role because I've been there longer than almost everyone. And um, and I'm like, no, I just want to drive the truck. I don't want this responsibility. Yeah. Give give that responsibility to other people who are better at it.

SPEAKER_00:

I think that's really good self-awareness. Yeah. Um, I have Rick Grimes as a builder example, actually, here, but I'm wondering if there's better ones. Um again, I think that um Diana from Alexandria is closer.

SPEAKER_03:

You know who was who was good at all of these things, like um, you know, uh implementing ideas and practices and collective vision, is somebody that doesn't get mentioned very often in the Walking Dead universe, which is Dale.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

Dale was kind of like the original leader. Like even after Rick showed up, he was kind of still he was kind of still the leader, even though Rick was the leader.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

Um, and uh he he was wise and he had a lot of you know, he was he was also like that diplomat as well. He was he was bridging gaps, he was uh making relationships with people.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. I think that the builder can get a bad rap because sometimes it's very similar to being a manager. Again, these could be good, you could be good at this or bad at this. The bad version of this is you just make people do everything that you want them to do, and you tell them you go do this and you go do that. The good version is you work with people to figure out what they're good at, and then you collectively create uh systems together. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

You see this in Rick Grimes um in the later seasons a lot more. Like you see him um identifying Maggie's strengths and convincing her to go to the hilltop and like try to help them.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

Um, he sees he sees the the potential in Daryl and you know, season nine, I want to say it is he's he's pushing Daryl to be a leader at the sanctuary, um, which Daryl hates. He just wants to ride his motorcycle and live in the woods. But uh but but Rick knew that he that he had that he had leadership qualities.

SPEAKER_00:

Absolutely. You ready for number six? I'm ready. Caregiver. We nurture and nourish the people around us by creating and sustaining a community of care, joy, and connection. So this is about making sure people rest, eat, grieve, stay connected to hope, tend to interpersonal conflict and morale. So this isn't not a a healer in the physical sense. This is someone who just you're having a bad day. Like imagine the person, okay, you've had one of the shittiest days. Who are you gonna reach out to? That's probably somebody who has strong caregiver skills. I'm gonna reach out to Leah. Oh. I do think I have this one. Yeah, definitely. Uh, but I do have an urge to nurture and nourish. Um, I love making sure people are taking care of themselves and are okay and happy. Um, and I'm gonna make sure everybody gets a bowl of soup at the end of the day. Yeah. Uh Beth.

SPEAKER_03:

Oh yeah, that's her name. Maggie's Maggie's sister, Beth. Who dies later.

SPEAKER_01:

Who dies later.

SPEAKER_03:

Um we don't see a whole lot from her until later when things don't go well for her. But um, but the times that we do see her, she is uh she's babysitting Judith. Um, she's singing around the campfire. Um, she's comforting people and encouraging them.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, like Daryl specify especially.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah. And um and yeah, she's definitely the the care the the caregiver. She's giving care. Um, you also see this from Herschel. Um Glenn is also a caregiver, I think. Yeah, say more about that. Glenn's always going uh putting himself in danger for other people. Like when people need something, he's like the the go-getter.

SPEAKER_00:

Is that more of a frontline responder?

SPEAKER_03:

A little bit. It's like a combination of things, but the reason like he's doing it for someone. So like even if he's going on a run, like um when Laurie was like, I need abortion pills.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

Um, you know, he's keeping that a secret and it's gonna take him off mission and it does cause a problem. Um but he's doing that for Laurie because he sees that Lori is in need of something. Um also you see that uh later on when he is with I want to say his name's Nick, um uh one of these shitheads from uh from Alexandria um who had greasy hair. And got somebody killed because he didn't he he panicked, he didn't know what he was doing, he fucked everything up. He was he was a fuck up and got Noah killed. Um and Noah could have been saved. But because he was too afraid and because he was too inexperienced and uh everything, he he ended up getting that guy killed. And uh Glen continued uh to uh want to save this person to because he saw he saw what this guy was going through, and even though he knew that he couldn't trust him and that he needed uh to be punished for the things that he did that caused people to be injured or killed, um, he didn't want him to die.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

And he he went out of his way to to make sure that he was okay enough to be able to get back and to to get through. He was great.

SPEAKER_00:

I really wish they never killed Glenn. But everybody wishes they never killed Glenn. Yeah. Uh the next one is a healer. We recognize and tend the generational and current traumas caused by oppressive systems, institutions, policies, and practices. So in the zombie apocalypse, that could look like providing medical care, uh, leading rituals, counseling, uh, tending to both physical and invisible wounds of loss and violence. So an obvious one as a healer is Herschel Green. He's a doctor. Also, she's a veterinarian, right? Who then ends up having to become a doctor. Herschel? No. Uh many seasons later in Alexandria, they kill her too, which upsets me. Oh. They're like the only lesbian couple. Yeah, I forget her name. She's an amazing actor. Yeah. Can't remember her name.

SPEAKER_03:

Um we'll we'll get back to that in a later episode, and we'll just say we'll just blurt it out in the middle of some episode.

SPEAKER_00:

Some other episode. Anyways, she is a healer and she has to stretch herself because she's, I think, only a vet. And then is like, well, guess I'm learning how to do this with people now. I think she was a psychologist.

SPEAKER_03:

Is that what it was? She was something very unrelated to a medical doctor. Yeah, but she um Herschel was a veterinarian.

SPEAKER_00:

Herschel was a veterinarian. A large animal vet. Right. Okay. So both of them were sort of like uh peripheral, but had that healer instinct and so stretched themselves to believe that. The the man that what's the man, what's the kid's name again? Carl. Carl, yeah. The man, the man that Carl finds in the woods and brings back as a doctor. Right, yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

Um, whose name I also forget.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Uh, but there's a lot of examples of the like the classic physical healer, not hard to think about. Like, are you a nurse, a doctor? Um, do you have background? Like again, bringing up shout out to Alice for their ability to do um therapy, physical therapy with horses. I a lot of that'll be transferable to humans. Yeah. Um, and I can absolutely see them doing those things in zombie apostles.

SPEAKER_03:

Alice also just has a wealth of medical knowledge.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Super useful human being, beyond just being a great one. Uh, on the other side of it, we have Judith Grimes, who is also a healer and somebody who I think is actively trying to mend trauma and um guide a better path forward. You know, she reminds survivors to choose compassion.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Over and over again. Negan being the most obvious example of that.

SPEAKER_03:

And you know who the who who was the guiding force for Judith to want people to choose compassion?

SPEAKER_01:

Who?

SPEAKER_03:

Carl. Carl's dying words were uh were to Rick to um to forgive Negan.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh, that gave me chills. I didn't remember that.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah. He wrote a letter. Um, he wrote everybody letters because he knew that he was gonna die because he got bit. Uh and and he he told he told Rick to forgive Negan, and that's the reason why Negan is alive after season eight, spoiler alert. Um and Rick adopts that as well. Like he that also becomes part of his mantra, even though like he's still very much, you know, first responding out there and doing what what needs to be done. He's he's trying to follow his son's words and trying to create a more compassionate world.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Yeah. I think it's important to remember that you can be a healer by just thinking about how to like mend those traumas and those rifts that happen. Um, and that Judith is, I think, definitely an example of like a beacon of hope and the future, and like that is necessary to directly address those traumas instead of just bury them under the surface if you ever want to actually heal.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

As a society.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, Judith was also a weaver because she was bringing people in.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. She's also a visionary. Yeah. Yeah. Really cool. Cool little kid. It's probably an adult now. It's probably whoever played her. Uh, this is our eighth number eight disruptor.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

We take uncomfortable and risky actions to shake up the status quo to raise awareness and to build power. So this is the person who's going to call out hoarding, authoritarianism, or violence and pushes the group to confront injustice even when it's uncomfortable. So Michonne is a disruptor. Oh, absolutely. She was absolutely not willing to just go along with the governor and she would do anything she needed to to end that injustice.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah. And like her rejection of injustice uh was was almost an uncontrollable element of her personality for a long time. It wasn't until much later that she like was able to tame that part of herself that she actually like found herself not rushing into problems.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Yeah. Um, Maggie is also a disruptor, right? Like she's because I think that she's also the weaver and the builder, and she doesn't want to have um, she wants she's got that visionary vibe too. She wants a better world. So when she's got to stand up, she's gonna do it.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Um, who was it that went back to the um seaside community and tried to convince them to disrupt and fight back against Negan?

SPEAKER_03:

Well, the whole the whole group went back. Um Rick was Rick was giving the the the main speech to the to to them about fighting back. So Rick is a disruptor for sure.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, actually that's he consistently, and especially in the spin-offs too, in the ones who live, he also disrupts. And I'll also I forget her name, um Tara. Oh yeah, Tara from Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Yeah, Tara was um I'm joking, that's not actually the right Tara.

SPEAKER_03:

It's a totally different Tara. Tara uh discovered seaside by accident by washing up on their shore.

SPEAKER_00:

Tara was in the relationship with the psychologist whose name I don't remember, who's a great actor. I think it started with a D. Yeah, I'm gonna look it up because I feel bad. Denise. Denise. I knew it started with a D. Yeah, that was impressive, Dan. Yeah. So say more about Tara.

SPEAKER_03:

Um you think she's also a disruptor? I don't know enough about Tara off the top of my head. Um, I think I think she is. She's a bit of a rebel. Um, and she was disrupting within within the community. So, like, she'd go out to to save somebody who did something stupid and almost fell into a a big pile of zombies. Um, and Rick gave her a hard time about it because she risked her life and she gave him the finger.

SPEAKER_00:

You know who else is a disruptor? Sasha.

SPEAKER_03:

Sasha is a disruptor for sure.

SPEAKER_00:

Can you tell us a story about Sasha? Boy, there's a lot to tell about Sasha. Um just a disruptor story. How about when she chooses to end her own life?

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, like that that was a whole that was a whole plot to try to just shake up Negan by pretending to go along with this plan and then uh ending her life in the middle of the plan so that she would come after him as a zombie and scare the shit out of him.

SPEAKER_00:

Pretty badass. Sasha's also a character I wish didn't die, but I mean they gave her a good death. Yeah, they gave her a number nine, storyteller. Another one I feel like you're gonna resonate with, and a lot of the authors listening, obviously, y'all are storytellers. We craft and share our community stories, cultures, experiences, histories, and possibilities through art, music, media, and movement.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah. Um, yeah, so this would be people, this would be uh musicians, this would be artists, um, or just people who are just have the gift of gab and and uh desire to uh uh pass down information in the form of story. Um which I think is a really important role to have post-apocalypse, like um going back to like oral traditions is going to be a thing. And uh and it takes a certain amount of skill to be able to tell a story, um, which is why like before before the era of like written history and TV and radio and movies, um the uh the storyteller was a big part of the community. That was the person who passed down knowledge, like hearing a story by the campfire, that was that was like that was like going to school.

SPEAKER_00:

I mean, stories are the best way that people learn because long before we had written words, that's how we that's how we learned is through story. And it's still proven true today. Like if you teach someone something through a story versus like just spitting facts, the story is what's gonna land and what they're gonna remember.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Um, I'm thinking about I'm again, can't remember this guy's name. Really lovely guy. He was one of the ones that would go out and try and find people to recruit to Alexandria.

SPEAKER_03:

Oh, um, I also don't remember his name.

SPEAKER_00:

This is the episode of We Don't Remember Their Names. Um anyways, he I think he was a storyteller in the sense that he brought pictures of the community. Yeah. And when he finally approached people, he would he would tell the story of the community, and he did it in a way that allowed them to imagine themselves there and that it could be a safe place.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, definitely. Um, there's also somebody that I'm thinking of seasons nine to eleven, um, had a a different group of characters that showed up that Judith found um running from a horde. Uh again, I don't know their names, but this guy uh was obsessed with music. Um one of one of the items that he carried with him through the entire apocalypse was uh a very valuable uh instrument. Um I want to say a violin, maybe some some very expensive violin. And his whole thing is just that he just he just wants to make music and like his whole role is uh to bring joy to people through music in the apocalypse the apocalypse. And whenever he speaks, like every time that he has to speak to people, it's it's a story. Like he is he is painting a picture in people's minds of why certain things are important, like why music is important and why story is important. Um you never you never just get like a normal answer from an agent. You get a you get a a speech, a tear jerking speech.

SPEAKER_00:

My brain left. Number 10, the last archetype, a guide. We teach, we counsel, and advise using our gifts of well-earned discernment and wisdom. So this is the person that helps others choose actions aligned with values rather than fear. They mentor individuals through crises and change.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, this is a really important one, and we one that we see a lot of in The Walking Dead, especially as Rick himself is dealing with moral complexities and uh mental health issues. Um, he needs somebody that's going to steer him in the right way. And uh this is kind of what I think the thesis of The Walking Dead is, is that like every bad big bad guy that we run into, like the governor and Negan and the the people at Terminus, um, they're all kind of a representation of who Rick could be if he followed the wrong path. Yeah. And you know, the first guide that really has an impact on on Rick um is Herschel. Um Herschel's definitely a guide. Dale Dale was a guide.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

Herschel was a guide. And then later on, uh Morgan is is the is the guide when he um discovers non-violence through a keto.

SPEAKER_00:

And he shares that philosophy with others. And uh I think he's an interesting one because he has to grapple with when it's not it's no longer the right option.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Um that there are times where you have to defend yourself. Uh, but I think he's a really good example of um the archetype of a wounded healer, although in this case we're using the term guide, which is like he he went through a complete mental breakdown.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, like one that you most people wouldn't come back for.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, like just and his me his breakdown looked like extreme violence against anybody.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Anybody and anything. Yeah. And so he, speaking of guides, he met his own guide who taught him a keto and taught him the way. And then he was able to pass that on to um uh one of the kids from The Kingdom. Yeah. Another one, uh again, this is the theme is we forget their names because there's a lot of characters and 11 seasons.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

If if uh if I'd thought of any of these things before we started, um, I might have Googled some of their names.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, we would have been prepared. We had a list of character examples. Um, but I think, you know, there's definitely some overlap between these. There's lots that, you know, you could feel like you're a few of them. And uh my sense is that a lot of the time the dominant one that comes out is sometimes like contextual, like in your environment, which of these is really needed in your community that you already feel called to do or want to do or have done? Um, and which of them just feels sort of like inherently like you? I think I would say that I like Dan, I would, you know what, let's do it for each other. That's fun. Yeah. I think that you, your top, let's pick each other's top three. Okay. I want to do top four for you.

SPEAKER_03:

Okay, let's do top four.

SPEAKER_00:

Okay. I've got my top four for you.

SPEAKER_03:

Okay, I'm ready.

SPEAKER_00:

You're ready? Okay. So I'm not gonna put them in the order of what I think is the strongest. I'm just gonna tell you what I think is your top four, and then you tell me which one you think is most dominant or that you think is gonna really come out in a zombie apocalypse. Storyteller.

unknown:

Okay.

SPEAKER_00:

I think who you are fundamentally is a storyteller. Uh, you're a great storyteller just in life, like um, sometimes through info dumping. But you're just like in general, Dan has always been a storyteller, and writing is your vehicle for that right now. Um number two, I think you're a caregiver.

unknown:

Okay.

SPEAKER_00:

I think you are naturally someone who wants to take care of other people and make sure they're okay. And I benefit from that every single day. Well, you know what?

SPEAKER_03:

So does Simon. My lack of being a weaver means that my caregiving extends to um pretty much just you.

SPEAKER_00:

You say that, but I know that if there was a person in crisis and you saw them, you would help them.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, that's true.

SPEAKER_00:

Um, so yeah, so storyteller, caregiver, frontline responder, because I know that about you, that when things happen that are emergencies, you're gonna be there and you're gonna be responding. Yeah. And lastly, experimenter. Those are my top four for you. Yeah. Which of those four do you think is your highest?

SPEAKER_03:

You know, I didn't I didn't think about um about storyteller until I mean this is the this is my first time going through the list. So uh, but I think that's accurate. Um which is the one that you feel most um connected to right now? That's really tough. Yeah. Um, I guess you're right about being a caregiver. I just don't really see it that way. But it's since you since you mentioned it, I kind of see it now.

SPEAKER_00:

I think the one caregiver could be really gendered, um, which is why I'm glad you brought up Glenn as an example of a caregiver, because I think that the assumption is like we just picture uh women, because that's what we've been in culture to do.

SPEAKER_03:

But you are like a lot of caregivers that are men, yeah. In the in the uh The Walking Dead. Like I mean, you can you can pick, you know, like four of these for just about anyone.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I think Caregiver is one of your top ones.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

What about me? Do me.

SPEAKER_03:

Okay, I gotta see if I remember which ones I picked. I don't have them ranked though. Oh, I didn't either, yeah. Um, so I'm just gonna go from the top to the bottom bottom, the dub, a dub. I think you're a weaver.

SPEAKER_00:

Darn it.

SPEAKER_03:

You're 100% a weaver. Um, and yes, you are Bob, the the builder. Yep, that's my favorite thing to do. Um, I also think that you're a caregiver. Thanks. And a disruptor.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I think I forget that I'm a disruptor because I think of like the people who put their bodies on the line, but I am the first person to speak up if I feel like there's an injustice.

SPEAKER_03:

I think you're very strongly a uh a disruptor. Thanks. And I'm gonna throw guide in there too. That's my number five. Number five. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you very much. You're you're definitely my guide. You you're you're my Morgan, Leah. I'm your moral compass. Yeah. When I'm when I'm Rick with my sweaty hair and I'm walking around in the woods, and I'm just like, I'm like, we have to kill all of the bad guys. That's when you show up with your with your a keto stick. And you're like, there's another way.

SPEAKER_00:

That's true. Just yesterday there was a thing you wanted to do, and I was like, that sounds like fun vengeance, but it's actually not aligned with our own values or ethics.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

That's important for me as as as a responder to have my guide. That's true, because the frontline responder in you is like, let's scorch turst.

SPEAKER_00:

We will salt the soil. I don't think you would have actually done it. I I have a question for you that I've been wondering this whole time. And I'm wondering if other I bet you people are too. Who's Daryl Dixon in this? Well, Daryl, um everybody's favorite guy.

SPEAKER_03:

Daryl's a disruptor.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

He's definitely a frontline responder.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

Um I think later he becomes a visionary, but I think that's that was a writing choice because they ran out of people. True. Um, and they're just like, we really need to build you up for your spinoff. Um he's a bit of a storyteller. He doesn't talk often, but when he does, like a perfect example is season two when Carol's uh lost her child, who's presumed missing, and he comes back and tells a story about the Cherokee Rose and how um on the Trail of Tears Native Americans uh were were f they were finding these flowers along the the Trail of Tears and they said it was because where when wherever a mother's tear dropped, the story or this uh this flower grew out of the ground. Um so like he does use story to convey ideas. Like he doesn't just tell you like, yeah, my dad was an asshole. He tells you a story, he he paints a picture about like, you know, um, you know, he'll he'll go into a trailer and be like, my old man had a chair just like this, but I had a lot more cigarette burns on it, but not as much as the back of my neck or something like that. I'm I'm paraphrasing, but he that's how he would tell you about his troubled backstories. He'd tell you a story about like being a kid and living in the woods for nine days because his dad was out driving trucks or something, or off on a bender.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, he was a really good storyteller. You're right. I think you know, we're all more complex than these categories, but uh the purpose of them really is to help you find your path.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Um, and where you want to focus. And I want to point out like none of these were like jobs, J-O-Bs. Yeah. Because jobs are an invention of capitalism. That thing I mentioned, I don't like very much.

SPEAKER_03:

That'd be an interesting thing to talk about in a in an episode is um is that like I don't think you need to assign people jobs if you know people's archetypes. So like these are all people that will do these things just instinctually.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

Like you don't have to assign Abraham to guard duty.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, the builder in me would still want to, but I would I'd be assigning people based on their strengths and interests. Right.

SPEAKER_03:

You do, but you know that Abraham's gonna volunteer to be on guard shifts.

SPEAKER_00:

Like I know that um putting Abraham on guard shift is a good idea and that I probably shouldn't put Diana. Yeah, Diana would be terrible on guard shift.

SPEAKER_03:

Also her son Spencer, because he would probably sneak off in the middle of the night and just go get drunk.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I mean, we all have our strengths, and so it's like knowing what they are. But I like there are roles people need to play in different points and time, but I think knowing sort of more what you're generally good at is going to help you figure out in the moment, like what is the role that I should be playing.

SPEAKER_03:

Um, something that, you know, I I mentioned that like at the same time that you were creating this, this was stuff that was actually going through my mind, but not as clearly organized as this is. And something else that I was thinking about at the time, and something that I would like to do a future episode on, is um various personality traits that you want to have these roles in your zombie apocalypse uh lineup. You know, like a really good example is like um a personality trait of like a self-starter. Like you if if you if you have somebody who is a frontline responder and a self-starter, like Abraham Ford, that is that is somebody that you want in your team.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, there are probably personality traits that connect each of these archetypes.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah. And then there's personality traits that you don't want in your team.

SPEAKER_00:

Like which Myers-Briggs type goes with each of these archetypes? That would be called a framework inside of a framework that my old boss would hate.

SPEAKER_03:

So that's an episode for the future. The framework and a framework. Yeah. We're gonna put a a door and a door.

SPEAKER_00:

I think we should combo our uh zombie astrology episode with this one and see what happens.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, I think we need to redo zombie astrology. You think it's time to do it again? Yeah, it's time to bring it back.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I feel like it was an underappreciated episode. It was like way back episode seven or something like that for newer folks. Yeah, but it was. Yeah. Uh today we've been talking about Deepa I or social change ecosystem framework and thinking about what our archetype and roles might be in the zombie apocalypse. Curious what you think you are, which of these calls do you? Which of them would you absolutely not want to do or think you'd be terrible at? I think first line or yeah, first line responder, don't do that to me. I'm not good at that. I'm gonna be frozen. Yeah, I'm gonna freeze, most likely. Or fawn, or I'm probably not gonna run, let's be real. I might fight if my back's against the wall, but it's not gonna be my first instinct.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Um, like in the time that Alice was able to realize our dog needed safety and to be rescued, I was just like, wait, what's happening? And then it was over.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Um, so clearly that's not my thing. So, like, what are you really good at? What are you not good at? What what role do you hope to play in your community right now and in the zombie apocalypse? Send us a voicemail, 614-699-3006. I love saying that because it makes me feel like I'm on the radio. You know, call in with your questions and tell us, you know, what you think your role is and what you want to play.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, what what's what's your request?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

What's uh what's what's the song that you request for the role that you're playing?

SPEAKER_00:

It's like a dating um app, too, right? Because if you look at the ones that you said were my top four and my like your top four, there's only one overlap, I think, which was caregiver.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

So that like we complement each other. You could also think about it that way, instead of being like, well, Pisces and um cancers go really well together, you'd be like, Well, you really need a visionary and a builder. If you just have a visionary, nothing happens. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

Tell me about it.

SPEAKER_00:

And a lot of like in my nonprofit land, worked in nonprofits forever. Like the executive director is usually a visionary, and they're really they got great ideas. They see a a way forward and like a world that is more beautiful, but their ability to implement is a struggle, and that's where you need people like me to be like, all right, let's take your 50,000-foot view idea and make it like steps we're gonna do now. Yeah. Um, so yeah, let us know. Thanks for joining the Zombie Book Club. You can support us by leaving a rating or review. Send us a voicemail, as I said, up to three minutes at 614-699-00006, or sign up for our newsletter that we have not sent out since I don't even know when. Ever. Once?

SPEAKER_03:

Once. So once a spam. Once a spam. Uh, little thing about the newsletter. I'm gonna I'm I think I'm going to move it over to Substack.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay.

SPEAKER_03:

Um, so I don't know how to ask everybody that I have their email addresses of before I do this. So um, I guess if you hear this and you don't want me to put it on Substack, let me know. That's a good answer. Yeah. Uh otherwise I'm doing it. And if uh you complain after, then um sorry.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. But the places we're hanging out the most, not currently Substack, maybe it will be more in the future, is Instagram at Zombie Book Club Podcast. That's where you can find our holiday guide to supporting zombie authors in the age of AI, happening all this week. Um, and if you're listening in the future, it's probably too late. But you can still vote by their books, you know. Yeah, it doesn't have to be this specific week. Uh, you can also hang out with us on the Facebook group, the Zombesties Zombie Book Club something something Facebook group, or the Brain Munchers Collective Discord, uh, led by our fearless zombesti, Ollie Eats Brains. All links are in the description.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

And as you might know, the end is nigh. Dan has requested I stop singing it. So I'm just gonna say, baby, bye-bye bye. Don't die. Don't die! Do you see the light leaving my eyes of sadness? Yes, and it's delicious. Wow.

Contributor

Dan

Host
Contributor

Leah

Host