Tomorrow Never Came with Special Guest Alice B. Sullivan | Zombie Book Club Ep 143

Alice B. Sullivan is back, and this time she brought the apocalypse with her. We're celebrating the release of Tomorrow Never Came, Book 2 in her Aftermath series, and digging into everything that makes it tick; the virus science behind goners and vectors, infected animals that will haunt your nightmares, and get into the messy, beautiful question at the heart of this book: how far do you bend your morals before you don't recognize yourself anymore?

We also pull back the curtain on Alice's wildly fun Facebook "choose your own adventure" apocalypse, what it's like to write fast and and how reader expectations (and the occasional one-star review) shape the way we talk about genre fiction. If you love post-apocalyptic thrillers, slow-burn relationships, lesbian zombie novels, and dogs that never die under any circumstance; this one's for you.

Guest & Relevant Links

Alice B. Sullivan — Contact & Socials

• Website: https://alicebsullivan.com
• Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/AliceBSullivan01
• Newsletter: https://alicebsullivan.com/newsletter-signup/

Alice's Books — Amazon

• Tomorrow Never Came (Aftermath #2): https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0GRKHX4Z2
• Yesterday's Gone (Aftermath #1): https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0CK75RB5S
• Full Author Page: https://www.amazon.com/stores/Alice-B.-Sullivan/author/B09BX4BRR7

Transcript

Welcome Back Alice And Mud Season

SPEAKER_00 0:19

Welcome to Zombie Book Club, the only book club where the book is coming tomorrow. But if tomorrow comes, then it's today. When will it be tomorrow? When I'm not waiting for tomorrow to come. I'm writing a book that takes place in a survivor camp in Queens. It's run by the military and some powerful elites that want you to believe that without them the world falls apart. At least that's what they keep telling us.

SPEAKER_02 0:39

And I'm Leah. And today we have back in the house, but not actually our house this time, very sadly, Alice B. Sullivan to celebrate her latest aftermath series, Tomorrow Never Came. You may know Alice from the last time she was on the show talking about book zero of the aftermath series, The Collapse. But for those who have not met her, Alice was born and raised in upstate New York, where she apparently spent way too much time pondering zombie apocalypse scenarios. I think that shouldn't be past tense, where she currently spends too much time pondering zombie apocalypse scenarios. And when she isn't chasing things that go bump in the night, Alice is writing about different ways the world could end. She's also one of our absolutely favorite zombie besties on the planet. Welcome back, Alice. We missed you. Missed you guys too. How's it going? It's not the same if you're not beside me trying to hit me in the face with a crowbar, you know? Yeah. I brought my crowbar.

SPEAKER_00 1:26

Did you bring your crowbar?

SPEAKER_03 1:28

I got my crowbars in the back of my car.

SPEAKER_00 1:32

It's a good place for it to be honest. I was trying to make it, I was trying to do the cheers that we did where we clanged our crowbars together, but I can't like I don't have anything I can hit it on that won't make like a horrible racket and damage to my desk. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:45

You were supposed to be here in person again this weekend. Yeah, what happened?

SPEAKER_03 1:50

Mother Nature had other plans. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:52

That tends to happen. We live in Vermont, so we're in between times. We're in between apocalypses here in Vermont because we have um well we we all we have many, many seasons. And the season that we just went through was called the Spring of Lies. It's also um early mud season. Yeah. Mud mud mud season 1.0. Uh then it snows again, everything freezes. So like you all the ruts are frozen into the mud. Um and that stays for a little while, and then we get mud season 2.0, and uh and then it gets really muddy, and then like if you don't have four-wheel drive, like basically don't expect to go anywhere ever again.

SPEAKER_02 2:32

Yeah, we don't leave the house right now.

SPEAKER_00 2:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:35

Uh but that's okay. We are going to hope that Alice, you're here in a couple weeks. Yes. If the weather agrees with us. But for now, it's nice to see you online. It is a little safer, I have to admit. Um how has life been, Alice, since we last had you visiting us here?

SPEAKER_03 2:51

Life

Writing Fast And Facebook CYOA

SPEAKER_03 2:52

has been all over the place. I moved back home to New York. So I've just been working on my books since then. I've written, including um this newest edition to my aftermath series, a total of three books, and I'm working on another one.

SPEAKER_02 3:08

That's a lot of books. Do you want to know that you once texted me and said that you weren't feeling very productive?

SPEAKER_03 3:15

Yes. You don't have to call me out, Leah. You understand. Listen, I those two other books were the my Facebook zombie apocalypse series. So I don't know if that if they they count. They're like over 20,000 words each. I think they count.

SPEAKER_02 3:34

They count.

SPEAKER_03 3:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:36

I think I put you in the category of prolific writers. Alex.

SPEAKER_03 3:39

I mean, Dan did make me an awesome bookover for one of them. So Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:43

Wait, which one? Which one are the ones?

SPEAKER_03 3:46

Season one.

SPEAKER_00 3:47

Season one of the um of the Facebook Choose Your Own Adventure Chronicle. Which the choose your own adventure part is the live Facebook thing, uh, not the actual book itself.

SPEAKER_03 3:58

No, not the actual book. It was the Facebook event where my followers would choose the way.

SPEAKER_02 4:03

Are you doing another one of season three right now? I have not really been on the Facebook, so I I'm out of the loop.

SPEAKER_03 4:09

Um, season three has not started, but it will start soon. I focused after season two ended, I focused on releasing Tomorrow Never Came. And now that that's released, I am going to focus on another book before I get into season three. But season three will come.

SPEAKER_02 4:26

How will people know to get involved once it's ready? Because it's really fun to interact.

SPEAKER_03 4:31

I usually will make um a series of Facebook posts to remind everybody that it's coming in however long I'll send out my newsletter. Um, so if you follow my Facebook or my newsletter, you'll find out when season three of my little scenario series is coming up.

SPEAKER_00 4:51

When um when people are choosing their own their own adventure, um it's a group consensus, right? Like everybody has like you have to pick a a decision based on what everybody in the group says. Do you get a lot of fights about what you're supposed to be doing next?

SPEAKER_03 5:11

So I will give my followers up to four choices, and I actually post in two different groups. So I post on my personal author page, and I also post in Courtney's Sundown series Facebook group, which I highly recommend. It's a wonderful group of zombie and apocalyptic lovers. Um, so I take the the votes from both groups, and whichever choice gets the highest amount of votes is how I write the next scene. So because I don't have that many followers quite yet, I have not seen any arguments in my comment sections about choosing um which like which like people will comment and say their choice and explain why, but no arguments have ensued, unfortunately.

SPEAKER_04 5:53

Bummer.

SPEAKER_03 5:54

My sister will text me and be like, everyone's wrong. And I was like, okay, but I have to write it this way anyway. She's like, okay, well, they're wrong. I was like, that's not how this works, Nina. It's democracy.

SPEAKER_02 6:05

Democracy's wrong. Nina wants to be a dictator. That's what I'm hearing.

SPEAKER_03 6:08

That's exactly how it goes. She's like, okay, well, they're wrong anyway. And I was like, okay, well.

SPEAKER_00 6:13

She comes out like Rick from The Walking Dead, and she's just like, This is not a democracy anymore.

SPEAKER_03 6:19

We are the walking dead.

SPEAKER_00 6:22

The horde is right. He does say that, doesn't he? That's when he says it. He says the words that are the title. Wait, who says that? Rick.

SPEAKER_03 6:30

Rick. And then Daryl later on says, We are not the walking dead. It's kind of corny.

SPEAKER_02 6:35

Don't remember that even having watched it multiple times, but my memory is not great. My brain is just non-stop zombies, so it lives there. Well, for those who haven't been a part of your um choose your own adventure series, what's the one that's out right now that folks can read?

SPEAKER_03 6:50

So seasons one and two are out for free. Um they are posted on my Facebook in um like the saved folders by season. So season one is 40 chapters, I believe. And season two is 47 chapters, and all of it's for free. Um, but if you are subscribed to my newsletter, I will frequently send out seasons one and two properly formatted into a PDF version, and so like it reads like an actual book rather than Facebook posts. So it's like it's up to you on how you want to read it. But yeah, and then I will be eventually putting season one to print form, and I'm waiting on Dan to finish my season two book cover so I can have that in printed form because he's fantastic at what he does, and my season one cover is amazing. Um, so they will eventually come to print.

SPEAKER_00 7:44

Yeah, I think people should check it out, if nothing else. If nothing else, it's free.

SPEAKER_05 7:50

Yes, exactly. It's like it's come for the book cover.

SPEAKER_02 7:54

Stay for the book. The actual content. Yes.

unknown 7:57

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 7:58

I think it's incredibly generous of you to create that experience for people to enjoy at no cost.

SPEAKER_03 8:03

It is, it's quite fun. Um, everyone that has taken part has given pretty f positive feedback. Um, my sister calls me crazy for doing it, but that's okay. Um, because it not only flexes my writing capabilities um and my sort of innovation, because I do write everything on the fly that morning based on who like what chan answers highest voted for. So it do it does like challenge me in a way. So I like it. Um, does cause me a lot of stress, but in a good way. And it does get me writing. So I'm enjoying it. My followers are enjoying it, and it does get people a taste of my writing, if anything. So if they like it, they might feel inclined to check out my other books.

SPEAKER_02 8:45

Which you should, listeners, if you haven't yet. Listening tells me lots of folks listening are already big fans of you, Alice.

Aftermath Primer And Trope Game

SPEAKER_02 8:53

Uh, let's get into the aftermath series. I'm gonna ask you one basic question about it, and then we're gonna play a brand new game that I just came up with this morning for you called Tomorrow Never Came Trope Game. Um, but before we before we go.

SPEAKER_03 9:07

Those accidental tropes that like my friends pointed out after reading it, and I was like, oh.

SPEAKER_02 9:11

I mean, tropes are tropes are joyful though. People love them. Uh okay, but for those who are new to the aftermath series, could you just share in a nutshell what it's about and who the main character is before we get into Morrow Never Came trope game?

SPEAKER_03 9:26

So the Aftermath series is a zombie apocalypse series, um, full of conspiracy and complex characters trying to survive in this post-apocalyptic world. Um, the main character is Sadie Gallagher. We follow her since book zero, and her trusted canine companion, Trooper, who will never die because if Trooper dies, we riot. Um, hashtag. So the series follows Sadie um essentially growing up in this post-apocalyptic world and trying to figure out who she is as not only a survivor, but as a person. And so it's about her growth as a character, essentially, but with lots of zombie action.

SPEAKER_02 10:12

Love it. Okay. Well, that gives people enough of a teaser for us to do our game. And you already ruined my first true or false question.

SPEAKER_00 10:19

True or false. Does the dog die? Never. See, that's this is how this game's gonna go.

SPEAKER_02 10:26

This is specifically, so just for context books, there's book zero, the collapse, which is how the collapse starts. You see Sadie as a young child with Trooper. Then there is book one, Yesterday's gone, when Sadie is 18, right?

SPEAKER_03 10:39

Yeah, it flashes forward like over 10 years into the apocalypse.

SPEAKER_02 10:42

Yeah, so we're 10 years into the apocalypse, and you get a glimpse of different societies and how that's working out. And now we're at Tomorrow Never Came, and this is the true or false trope game for tomorrow never came. So the dog still doesn't die. That's good news.

SPEAKER_03 10:56

The dog will never die. I'm gonna tell everybody right now she's based off of my dog in real life, and she will never die.

SPEAKER_02 11:00

She's eternal.

SPEAKER_03 11:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:02

As all dogs should be. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 11:04

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 11:04

Okay. Trope number two. In Tomorrow Never Came, a zombie is never called a zombie. True. What are they called?

SPEAKER_03 11:11

Um, Sadie calls, so there are two different types of infected. I have the undead and the living infected. So Sadie calls the undead infected goners and calls the living infected vectors. Everyone else sort of has their own kind of name for it because there's no universal term. And one of my favorite things to do is coin new terms for zombies. Um, so she'll call them goners and vectors. Jess will call them literally anything other than that. I don't think I've ever had her call them goners or vectors. She calls them puppets, meet puppets, swear words, everything. I have a character call them leftovers, I have a character call them roadkill.

SPEAKER_00 11:51

Like I like leftovers. That one's good.

unknown 11:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:55

I like that I love that too. Like one thing that um that bothers me when it's a zombie story, you know, pick your zombie story is when they come up with a very specific word for a zombie, um, and then they, you know, travel hundreds of miles and meet new people, and they also call them that that strange, weird word. Yeah, that they're it doesn't make any sense. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 12:16

It doesn't make any sense. Like, unless it's unless like news broadcasts and TV is still a thing, would anybody call zombies the same thing? It doesn't make it wouldn't make any sense.

SPEAKER_02 12:28

You mentioned Jess calls them meat puppets. Who's Jess? There's an important character in this book.

SPEAKER_03 12:33

Uh Jess is the supporting main character in the aftermath series. She's Sadie's unfortunate forced ally in the situation where it's forced proximity or forced ally situation. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:49

So um knowing who Jess is. That brings us to our next question. Is there a one big bed situation?

SPEAKER_02 12:57

True. And to be clear, who's who's in the bed, Alice?

SPEAKER_03 13:03

Stadion Jess. Complete accident until my friend was just like, oh my gosh, you wrote the one bed trope. And I was like, Oh my god, I did.

SPEAKER_02 13:15

But there was good reason, right? And it's not a big bed from what you told me.

SPEAKER_03 13:19

Uh so there's actually actually did it twice by accident. Um so the first one's like big enough for both of them to lay down comfortably. The second one is kind of just like this twin mattress on the ground.

SPEAKER_00 13:31

Oh boy. One little bed. There is nowhere for us to sleep except this very small bed. Forced proximity.

SPEAKER_03 13:43

Yeah. I mean, I did have Sadie say that she would go elsewhere, but Jess was like, we are literally exhausted. You are not sleeping on the floor. Like, we have to travel hundreds of miles. You can't do that exhausted. Get in the bed.

SPEAKER_02 13:57

Did they snuggle, true or false? Define snuggle. Well, I don't know if it's a spoiler because I know some things, Alice.

SPEAKER_03 14:05

Is there flat-out cuddling false? Okay.

SPEAKER_00 14:08

Okay. That wasn't a question on our list, but I think it's a good one. It's a good one to throw into it.

SPEAKER_03 14:12

Because snuggling can be like arms around each other or just super close.

SPEAKER_02 14:19

Well, I mean, you could be in forced proximity. Like, okay, imagine a world for some reason, me and my brother are forced to sleep on a single bed. We're gonna be facing away from each other, trying to create space where there isn't space. That's not coupling. Me and Dan on a single bed. I think I'm lying on top of Dan because there's only room for Dan.

SPEAKER_03 14:39

Yeah, that's me. I would just lay on top of my sister, just even if there was enough room.

SPEAKER_02 14:46

Yeah. Okay. You ready for your next trope?

SPEAKER_03 14:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 14:50

Someone says in Tomorrow Never Came, we can't stay here.

SPEAKER_03 14:54

I think on this one. Can I like control find this? Because I don't remember. You can, absolutely. Okay. Because I feel like I feel like if I did, it would be Jess who was saying it, but I don't know if she's ever said that specifically. Specifically. Pacifically. Because I'm an author. Because I'm an author, guys. We control find. Control find. Thank you. It's searching. False. False.

SPEAKER_00 15:22

All right.

SPEAKER_03 15:22

False.

SPEAKER_00 15:24

Um, next question. A character makes a morally questionable survival choice.

SPEAKER_03 15:29

True.

SPEAKER_00 15:30

Yeah, I mean, we gotta have those. Can you give us any hints? Or is it too much?

SPEAKER_03 15:35

Kind of like the whole premise of tomorrow and everything is Sadie fighting her morals and trying to keep her humanity in a wasteland that she is unfamiliar with because she's not traversed it since she was like eight years old. And it's been many years, and everything has changed, people have gotten worse, and she's literally fighting who she was taught to be and who she has to be to survive. So it's basically, yeah, that's the premise of tomorrow never came.

SPEAKER_00 16:06

Um the next trope. The real monsters are other humans.

SPEAKER_03 16:12

True and false, I guess. I mean they're fighting they're fighting the cat. Oh like Milo. Um true and false because they are fighting this big bad entity that are people, but the zombies do still take much of the center stage.

SPEAKER_00 16:33

Yeah. So good balance. I think that's a good thing.

SPEAKER_03 16:35

That's what I prefer, yes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:38

Sometimes you'll uh you'll watch something or read something and kind of forget that zombies are even a part of the picture.

SPEAKER_03 16:44

Yeah, like you can just take the zombies out in the same story.

SPEAKER_00 16:47

Yeah, which I sometimes think is a good thing if you can take them out, but also like if if we're here for the zombie apocalypse, we gotta have some zombie stuff going on.

SPEAKER_02 16:55

Yeah, yeah. I'm gonna have some zombies. You're if you're reading an Alice B. Sullivan book, there will be zombie action. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 17:03

And nobody is safe except for the dog.

SPEAKER_00 17:07

Good to remember. The dog doesn't die.

SPEAKER_03 17:09

Not even can't make any promises about your favorite characters. I can just only make the promise about the dog.

SPEAKER_02 17:15

Sorry, I'm processing that Sadie or Jess could die, and I'm not okay with this. I need hashtag Jess Dies and I'll riot.

SPEAKER_00 17:23

If your main characters die. I've changed my mind. Do you just pick new main characters based on whoever Trooper um gets adopted by?

SPEAKER_03 17:33

Technically, yes. Technically, yes. That's a good question. Uh if you read Tomorrow Never Came, you'll find that answer out. Oh. What?

SPEAKER_02 17:44

Okay. There was gonna there's gonna be a real big long gap you're gonna have to fill in there, Dan, with your editing skills, because I just gave Alice the worst look ever. I don't, I just like it blows my mind to be a writer just knowing you're torturing people.

SPEAKER_03 17:59

It's the best part because I'm also torturing myself, so it's just like we suffer together.

SPEAKER_00 18:03

Yeah. Shared trauma.

SPEAKER_03 18:06

Yeah. Exactly. It's a trauma bond.

SPEAKER_00 18:09

Yeah, perfect. Um I feel like I feel like this next question is is definitely a yes. I gotta believe. But is there a point where your characters have to run from a massive horde?

SPEAKER_03 18:22

Oh, yeah, 100% true.

SPEAKER_00 18:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 18:24

If your Americans aren't running away for like from like a horde, then is it even a zombie booth? Right.

SPEAKER_02 18:30

There can only be so many jump scares of a zombie falling out of a closet.

unknown 18:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 18:33

Exactly, right? Oh, that should be a zombie out of a closet. That should be one of our tropes.

SPEAKER_02 18:38

Oh, yeah, true or false. Is there a zombie in a closet? False. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 18:41

Okay. What about what about the next book?

SPEAKER_03 18:45

I haven't written the next book yet. But no, there won't be.

SPEAKER_00 18:49

Damn.

SPEAKER_02 18:51

All right. Uh next question. Someone gets injured at the worst possible time. True. True. This is fun. It's kind of like, I like this game. I don't know if you like this game, but it's like giving me pictures. I know I know some very specific things about this story and the relationship between Jess and Sadie, because you've been very kind to give me some spoilers, but getting the broader picture here. Uh here's the next one. This is when I was wondering what you might say based on something you said earlier before we started recording. There

Zombie Terms Virus And Vultures

SPEAKER_02 19:20

is some kind of superpower zombie type in your universe. Like an elite zombie, a special kind of zombie.

SPEAKER_00 19:26

A magic zombie, maybe.

SPEAKER_03 19:29

Um, there's actually really no special infected in my book. It's just undead versus living infected.

SPEAKER_00 19:37

Okay, good.

SPEAKER_02 19:38

But I feel like this is not quite a true, but when you said that there's a certain kind well, hold on. Is it a spoiler to talk about the crows? You mean the vultures? Vultures, sorry.

SPEAKER_03 19:48

I mean, not really.

SPEAKER_02 19:49

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 19:50

I'm not gonna say how I integrate them because that part's like amazing. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 19:54

So tell us about tell us about the zombie vultures.

SPEAKER_03 19:58

Um, so they're not technically special infected because in my book, animals can become infected with the beta virus. So the alpha virus is what creates our undead zombies, uh, which is redundant, sorry, but is what creates our undead called what Sadie calls goners, because the alpha virus isn't strong enough until it kills the host to reanimate them. The beta virus is a different strain of the virus where it is powerful enough to overwhelm the living host. So those hosts are still alive, and only the beta virus can infect animals. The alpha virus cannot, but animals can carry it.

SPEAKER_00 20:36

Is this is this kind of like based on how some viruses like when they first start infecting people on a on a grand scale, they tend to be like really horrible and highly deadly. And then as it mutates, it becomes actually less deadly because it's it's it's only mutating because it is existing in surviving hosts.

SPEAKER_03 20:59

So not necessarily. When it mutated for the beta virus, it did become powerful enough to infect live hosts, but it came with certain like I guess caveats. So my living infected only hunt in at night or in darkened areas. Um, and any sort of wound with enough blood loss can kill them rather than just a headshot. And they can die of ste starvation and dehydration because they are living.

SPEAKER_02 21:31

And then they don't come back as goners?

SPEAKER_03 21:33

No, they just die. Um, so in tomorrow never came. I I mean in in yesterday's gone, I did have um a vector deer that startles Sadie and just runs away because it was freshly infected. And when they're freshly infected, they're all kind of disoriented, they don't know what's going on, and they just run away rather than attack. So there was um a vector deer in yesterday's. Gone briefly. Um, but in Tomorrow Never Came, I do introduce um vultures. So Vector vultures, because vultures eat carrion, and so in my opinion, they are more susceptible to this virus because they scavenge. So I do introduce um the vec the vector vultures in Tomorrow Never Came, but they're not technically special infected because they are just an umbrella of vectors.

SPEAKER_02 22:28

Yeah, but I do love an animal zombie, and I think it makes a lot of sense because I mean we all know at avian flu it's totally possible to pass things between birds and people, and they would be the most vulnerable.

SPEAKER_03 22:41

I agree. And it's also just kind of scary because vultures do sort of hunt in not hunt, but like sir, like they do their surveillance in packs. So you just have these, like this group of vultures just dive bombing people because they're not actually vultures anymore. They're they're vectors looking for food, so they're just dive bombing people.

SPEAKER_02 23:03

That is very scary. Um, do you ever worry, because you have two cute little dogs, um, about like when you're going for walks about big birds looking at your dogs? Because I've had moments with vultures specifically. I was going for a walk. Uh, this is actually up in Canada at my mom's place, taking I was taking Ziggy for a walk, and there were these vultures that just kept circling over us and over us. And I'm like, are they looking at Ziggy as a meal?

SPEAKER_03 23:24

I'm getting worried. Um, luckily for vultures, they are just looking for dead things. If it was a hawk, you would be more um it'd be um you'd be more afraid because hawks are what also owls. But yes, I am terrified of big birds swooping down to get my dogs because there have there have been instances where hawks will circle around my yard because my dog is out in the yard, and I will be like, I will dropkick. Okay. Like, I'll dropkick you if you touch my dog.

SPEAKER_00 23:56

We also have eagles around here, so yes, eagles too.

SPEAKER_03 24:00

So basically any big bird that is not a vulture because they just they look for dead things.

SPEAKER_02 24:05

I don't know why, but that made me picture a big bird from Sesame Street as a zombie, and it's possibly like I think I might have to draw it. I haven't drawn a zombie in a while, and like big bird zombie.

SPEAKER_00 24:15

What if it's all the mup the Muppets from Sesame Street? That's too much work.

SPEAKER_02 24:18

Just give although what's his mint what's his name who lives in the trash can? Oscar. Oscar Digga Green Zombie. Cookie monster? Oh okay, sorry. This is an ADHD moment.

SPEAKER_00 24:30

We're gonna move on to the case. He's just like he's just like tearing somebody apart, and he's like just like cookies. Cookie. He's like he's looking for the cookies.

SPEAKER_02 24:39

Inspired true or false trope. Oh, jeez. Zombies in your universe, goners or vectors, only are interested in eating brains. False. They'll eat anything. Yeah. If you act like a zombie, real zombies won't attack you. If you act like a goner or a vector, they won't attack you.

SPEAKER_03 24:56

Uh, it's not enough to act like them. You have to blend in in the sense of smelling like them too. So if you you can act like them, and part of the act is acting like them, obviously, because if they notice that you are talking, walking differently, they'll be like, You are not one of us, you're probably food. So like you have to act like them, but you also have to smell like them. So I do have that instance in Tomorrow Never Came where guts make a pretty great outfit.

SPEAKER_00 25:30

I love that as an outfit.

SPEAKER_02 25:31

Apocalypse fashion 101. Yep. I mean, there's a lot of entrails to choose from. You could make a full skirt, like a entrail skirt.

SPEAKER_03 25:39

Pretty much. And Sadie uh describes it as feeling like mashed potatoes. So that's you're welcome for that.

SPEAKER_02 25:46

Gonna try not to think about that next time I eat mashed potatoes. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 25:50

How about how about this one? Um, you better keep up or you'll get left behind.

SPEAKER_03 25:56

Like someone saying like someone saying that?

SPEAKER_00 25:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 25:58

Oh, false. For one, if anyone ever said that, it would be Jess, and Jess would never leave Sadie behind. She would never admit it. But she'd never say it. Like she would, she just wouldn't.

SPEAKER_06 26:09

She wouldn't threaten it either.

SPEAKER_03 26:11

Yeah, she wouldn't threaten it. Neither, I mean, technically neither would Sadie. Sadie might threaten it, but Sadie just can't because she needs to get to where she needs to go with Jess. Like she knows that she needs Jess in order to get where she needs to go. So she has threatened to push Jess off of a roof into a horde of goners. So just to shut her up.

SPEAKER_02 26:30

I think that counts. Now imagine these two in one tiny bed.

SPEAKER_03 26:36

Listen, they do get they they they grow on each other. They grow on each other.

SPEAKER_02 26:42

So let's actually now we're past the truefalse game. We could do that all day. Was there one we didn't ask you? A trope that you're like, yeah, hell yeah, I put that in this book.

SPEAKER_03 26:50

Oh boy. Um oh boy. I think I'm kind of trope blind, to be honest, because half the time I didn't even realize I was writing until someone pointed it out and they're like, I love this trope. And I was just like, I kind of just write stories. I don't realize that I'm writing a trope. So like I think I'm sort of I think I'm like I don't set out to write tropes. Um, I just write the story, and if the trope happens, it happens. So I think I'm kind of trope blind. I don't really under like I don't really know.

SPEAKER_02 27:17

I didn't know that was like an author phenomenon, trope blind.

SPEAKER_03 27:20

Yeah, like I just kind of read the story. I mean, there is, I mean, I guess this is a trope where like, but I don't know if it would, it's it's I don't think it's specific to like zombie apocalypse books. It might be more so in romance. I have no freaking clue. I don't I don't read in romance, unfortunately. Um, but one of my characters does trip, almost falls over a ledge, my other character grabs her by the collar and kind of just like pulls her in very close, and then the other character gets super flustered. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:51

I mean the flustered part almost feels like an anime trope. Like the rosy cheeks, like like they have like some bubbles floating off the top of their head or something. Uh something that signify that like they're like, Oh, I'm I'm feeling so woozy from this intense interaction.

SPEAKER_03 28:13

No, unfortunately, there's no little swirlies above her head. She just pushes away and kind of just like stares at the sky, and she's just like, I might push you off the roof right now.

SPEAKER_02 28:23

Hide my feelings.

Slow Burn Tension And Tropes Debate

SPEAKER_02 28:25

You said that you don't read romance, um, but uh the slow burn romance between Jess and Sadie is there. It's a part of the story. What about the slow burn is something that you love to write about?

SPEAKER_03 28:39

So this like there's something about the aching and the yearning of a slow burn that just drives me crazy in the best way possible. So it's like the it's like the meet where they're not really sure of each other, and then it just kind of grows where like you have these small intimate moments that might not mean anything right then, but kind of add up, and then it kind of evolves into them trusting each other more, or the small hand touches by accident, or just there's something about having to work for that outcome that drives me absolutely crazy, and I love it, and I love writing it because it starts in book one when they meet, and it goes through book two, and they'll be there will be some of it in book three.

SPEAKER_02 29:29

Yeah, you said you shared a preview. Um, was it in a a Facebook group? Preview of what? Like the of like a little excerpt, like of a little bit of a Yes, yes. I don't know how you describe that moment. Spicy sounds too strong. Um simmering, maybe there was some simmering happens.

SPEAKER_03 29:47

I just I shared an excerpt um between Sadie and Jess in a Facebook group that got a lot of positive reaction, because you know, apparently a lot of people like those kind of moments too. So yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:03

I think that's the funny thing about tropes, and like in the same way and people say, Oh, that's cliche. I don't think cliches and tropes are necessarily bad. They're just examples of common human experience that we relate to.

SPEAKER_03 30:14

Oh, yeah. Yeah. The only in my opinion, when someone uses the word cliche in a bad way, they mean the execution in this instance is poor. So execution is what matters the most in every situation. You know what I mean? So something might be cliche, but it's not necessarily a bad thing if it's executed well. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_02 30:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 30:39

There's no hard and fast rules, and every author or every writer should understand. There's no hard and fast rules that say you can't do this and you or you can't do that. You just gotta do it well enough that people appreciate it.

SPEAKER_00 30:52

Yeah. Also, like a lot of people don't don't realize or seem to forget sometimes that like everything that we as humans do creatively has been done before.

SPEAKER_05 31:02

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 31:03

Like there's there's nothing new in storytelling. We're we're kind of just retelling the same stories that were told ten thousand years ago because we've had uh tens of thousands of years to tell stories, so we've told every kind, we're just uh adapting it and making it something that's uh uh that's true to ourselves. So like even though even though a story comes from your own imagination and your own creativity, it's gonna be similar to something else because that's just the way it is.

SPEAKER_03 31:36

That's just the way it is. And I feel like a lot of readers a lot of readers unfortunately don't understand that. So when authors get penalized for not being quote unquote original enough, it kind of upsets me because not only is that very damaging to a writer's motivation, it's just false because nothing is nothing is original anymore. It's just a different execution because it's that's individual writer's craft and voice and characters. Um and it just boggles my mind where everybody's like, oh, it's not original, zombies are overdone, blah blah blah. And it's just like every genre is technically overdone.

SPEAKER_00 32:18

Yeah, every single one. Like everyone look at fantasy.

SPEAKER_03 32:22

Yeah. But for some reason, like we said earlier before we recorded, zombie zombies are the butt of everyone's joke for some reason, unfortunately.

SPEAKER_06 32:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:31

So I think it can work the other way too. Like if you're if if you don't play to the cliches and the tropes that somebody wants from a story, then then they'll penalize you for being too original because they're like, this isn't the story I wanted. How dare you write something that I didn't like or expect.

SPEAKER_03 32:52

And then you have the readers that unfortunately are like, oh, it's just full of tropes and cliches. There's nothing original, there's nothing new. And it's just like it's like that's why I don't really like the tropification of books nowadays. And I don't know how the trend started, but it because I think it's kind of damaging to the whole aspect of art in the written sense. So like everyone's turning books into their tropes rather than their stories, and people are looking for tropes rather than a good story. So like if a story in a genre is hitting all of these beats, it's enjoyable, but then all of a sudden someone's like, Oh, it didn't have the normal tropes that the genre has. It's like, why does that matter? If it's a good story in that genre, it should not matter what tropes it has or doesn't have in my like, yeah, and I don't understand where the tropification of books came from nowadays, but it's very discouraging and frustrating, especially because like I made the mistake um a couple years ago when I was promoting Destination Tomorrow, I made the mistake of calling it a romance, um, and someone bought it based on that, just me calling it uh lesbian romance, um, and left me a one-star scathing review because the characters spoiler only kissed once and didn't outright kiss lesbians. And I was like, the characters are running for their life, they just met, there's no time to make out or take each other's clothes off.

SPEAKER_00 34:28

I mean, did did this person also give a one-star review to the first two to three books from the Twilight series?

SPEAKER_03 34:36

I did not read any further into that account. I actually blocked that person because that person went on to create a thread with another user and just sit there and trash the book in public. And I was like, I don't it's like it's okay to hate a book, but when you just sit there and kind of dogpile it on it saying, like, oh, I can't believe it has all this positive thing, like all these positive reviews must be fake. And it's just like just because you don't like something, it's okay. And just because the characters only kiss once and and don't do the dirty deed doesn't mean it's a bad book. Um, but that's fine. But yeah, so I made the mistake of calling it a romance apparently because they only kiss once.

SPEAKER_00 35:18

Yeah, I mean this person was clearly looking for a much more explicit adventure.

SPEAKER_03 35:24

Nothing nothing about it even says that it's explicit.

SPEAKER_02 35:27

Yeah, people have these expectations, I think. And I think the worst thing um when you're experiencing art or stories is to go in with too many expectations, but at the same time, people have this like desire to know what they're gonna get before they get it, which I find really strange. And if you don't like something because it's not your cup of tea, that doesn't mean it's a bad book. It doesn't mean it's a bad book. A lot of the like there are books that are not great. Okay, there's genuine problems with them, but then there's a lot of when I read a lot of one star reviews from books, it's usually something like just like it's not what the book that they wanted, it's not the story they wanted. And like that's not a good reason, or like, oh, I didn't like this character. And I'm always like, if you had strong feelings with a character, that means it was a successful book.

SPEAKER_05 36:09

That's a good thing, like that's the point.

SPEAKER_02 36:11

But people don't people are annoying sometimes. If you're one of those people, I'm talking to you, don't leave one-star reviews because you don't like a character. What or they didn't have sex, yeah, if it wasn't described, like usually if it's gonna be spicy romance, it's pretty explicit. You know you're going into it with like literally, you know you're what you're gonna get.

SPEAKER_03 36:32

Exactly. And I feel like people will review a book based on what it wasn't rather than what it is.

SPEAKER_02 36:38

Yeah. And that's a good point. It is, and I understand, you know, like I know you haven't watched 28 years later yet because we have dreams and goals of having a full 28 days and years marathon with you. Um but when you watch it, you might hate it. And it might be because it's not what you want out of zombie fiction, but that doesn't mean it's a bad film. And I think that's the like the hard part.

SPEAKER_03 37:01

And that is the hard part. People are having a difficult time sort of extracting the movie because they are comparing it to 28 days and 28 weeks later. Um, so I think people are having a difficult time kind of separating it. It's like the whole World War Z compared to the book compared to the movie. Yeah, it's got the movie has the book's namesake, but the movie is like nothing like the book. And I'm like, well, if you take the namesake off of the movie, it's not a terrible movie. But people bombed it because they expected the book. And it's it's also like the Resident Evil franchises. We can't get a good adaptation for whatever reason, but people dogpile all of these adaptations because they expect something because it's got the Resident Evil IP on it. But if you extract that, these adaptations aren't that bad. Like as individual movies, maybe as adaptations, they're pretty bad. But like as individual media, like they're actually not that bad. But because it's attached to an IP, people lose their minds because they have a hard time separating it. And I mean, they shouldn't. Like the source material is right there. You can have some liberties, nothing wrong with that, obviously. Like, no one wants, I don't, I mean, I wouldn't want to copy-paste kind of situation, but when it comes to the 28-year French live fan franchise, that's kind of different because they're all just they're all movies. So I think people are just having a difficult time kind of separating 28 years from the other two movies because they had expectations based on the other two movies.

SPEAKER_02 38:29

I'm curious how you would feel, like in a world, an awesome world that I'd love to see where your series gets picked up. Um, and I'm gonna use do the destination tomorrow, which is like a spin-off in the aftermath world, correct? Yeah, yes. Um, and the spin-off or the the movie version, the two characters are fucking. How would you feel about that if you sold your rights to a book and then they they did that to it?

SPEAKER_03 38:52

I'd I would make it known that um the type of sex that would happen between two women does not last a short amount of time and they're trying to fight for their lives. So like I don't think sex would would be satisfying in this situation because like they're fighting for their lives and they don't have a lot of time spare for that. Like when the kiss happens, like it is so brief that literally the next beat, one of the characters gets tackled by a zombie. Because there's little there's little time to breathe.

SPEAKER_02 39:28

Yeah, and sometimes that's very real. And let's just be let'd also say if the sex is short no matter who's involved, it's probably not good for at least one of them. It's probably or it's or it's great.

SPEAKER_00 39:43

It's a possibility.

SPEAKER_02 39:44

It's a possibility, but I do think there's a lot of there's a lot of movies, especially that have this like zero to 60 that I'm like, that's just there's no way that was that funny.

SPEAKER_03 39:53

There's no way I don't believe it. Like it's so, I don't know. I understand like the the tension between characters, and maybe that's what's exciting about that um about the sex is like it's so spontaneous, it's been built up, it's like all this friction. So like maybe, but like in the sense of like satisfaction apart from that, I don't really know. But like my beta reader, when I had her reading tomorrow, never came, and I would ask her like after every chapter, like, how did how was this? How was that? How was Sadie and Jess individually? How are Sadie and Jess together? A comment that she made periodically was these two are either going to blow up or hook up.

SPEAKER_00 40:36

I mean, that goes right on the cover, I feel like. Yeah, that is a good good quote.

SPEAKER_03 40:42

So I was like, well, I I'm not I can't make any promises for either of those um for either of those observations. But she said it frequently and it was whole it was pretty funny to to know that at least to her, I pulled that tension out of my characters.

SPEAKER_02 41:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 41:03

Which was very fun to write.

SPEAKER_02 41:04

And it is great. I mean, I love those kinds of stories that have that tension. Um, you mentioned earlier in our trope questions that one of like fundamental things with this story is that Sadie's put in situations where her morals are questioned, or she's questioning them. She has to figure out what to do next. What has inspired you to explore that tension with her?

SPEAKER_03 41:24

So one of my favorite aspects of apocalyptic media is the observation of humanity, seeing who tries to keep their humanity, who loses their humanity, who battles with it, seeing the choices they have to make, why they make it, how they justify it, and how they go about it. So that's one of my favorite um aspects of it is like just the human observation of how they react to situations. And I think to Sadie, when I in Sadie's situation, she has always been forced into ignorance, unfortunately. So when she was a little girl during the outbreak, you know, her parents were keeping her ignorant through it all, sheltering her, not telling her the truth. And we all see how that turns out, unfortunately. Um, Sadie does hold some resentment um toward her parents, unfortunately, for how they they handled the situation. And flash forward into yesterday's gone, she's trying to become less ignorant, she's trying to become more capable. And we have Todd who kind of who raises her, you know, treat teaches her right from wrong in what he believes is right or wrong, how to he teaches her how to survive. Um, and but most importantly, he teaches her to keep her humanity because he says humanity is the most important aspect to have in a world like this, because a world like this lacks humanity. He thinks it is one of the most powerful tools. He's not above having to make those tough decisions, and he has made those tough decisions, unfortunately, but he has made those tough decisions in the name of protecting Sadie. So in Tomorrow Never Came, we don't have Todd anymore. I won't say how, but we don't have Todd anymore. So it's just Sadie and Jess. So Sadie's kind of traversing the wasteland that she's unfamiliar with because she was sheltered in Clinton for so long. And she has this weird, not weird, but kind of rose-colored glasses, I'm gonna say, saying, like, oh, you know, she's a good person. I want to help as many people as I can, but she doesn't understand that these other people don't have that same mindset. So I just wanted to explore how someone who was sheltered as a little girl through the outbreak kind of evolves into having to be her own person in what became of the world. So it was just, it's in my opinion, something fun to explore. That's how I wanted to explore it with Sadie. So Tomorrow Never Came kind of pushes the boundaries of everything she was taught in Clinton by Todd and her community.

SPEAKER_02 44:00

Yeah. I think that's very relatable outside of the zombie apocalypse, actually. Because our society we live in today uh is morally very challenging to live in. Uh and it, you know, just going to this grocery store is like a an ethical quandary. Buying your clothes is an ethical quandary. Survival is not um a like A plus B equals C scenario even in our realities. It's very relatable to me that you're you're trying to figure out what the trade-offs are and like how you keep your humanity in a world that wants you to be not give a shit about anybody else, basically.

SPEAKER_03 44:32

Yes. And in Tomorrow Never Came, Jess, in contrast to Sadie, is willing to always make those split second choices that like without any sort of second thought.

SPEAKER_06 44:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 44:45

So it's about, she says it's about making cutthroat decisions and not feeling sorry about it because you had to do what you had to do to survive. And Jess has no remorse when it comes to that, but we get to see how both of these characters, Sadie and Jess, work off of each other and grow or regress in their character development because of each other.

SPEAKER_02 45:11

I feel like this is actually a perfect time for me to read the excerpt that you chose, Alice.

Excerpt Reading Roadside Ambush

SPEAKER_02 45:17

Do you want to tell us a little bit about it before I read it? Um you want me to say what chapter it comes out of, or leave that as like a f like a whatever context you think is helpful for folks before I dive into reading it, because it's just a couple of pages.

SPEAKER_03 45:29

Okay. So in this excerpt, it's Sadie and Jess. They just got out of a nasty bar fight, and they are driving um through New York on their way to New York City. So this part is just Sadie and Jess in the car sort of talking about um the like the world that they now live in instead. Yeah, it's just them kind of and Sadie's looking out of the window, looking at everything, and it kind of kicks off um one of the main plots in the book.

SPEAKER_02 46:04

The only thing about that is that Sadie's not a very good driver.

SPEAKER_03 46:07

Oh no, absolutely not. Like she has no, she has little experience um with driving, unfortunately, and Jess being the way she is, um, likes to see Sadie flounder because she thinks it's funny. Um Jess tells her to drive, and Sadie does hit potholes because she's not the best driver.

SPEAKER_00 46:27

Is uh is this something that you pull from personal experience?

SPEAKER_03 46:31

No, I am an okay driver, in my opinion. I did hit a pothole once at night with no light. I was going 20 miles an hour. I hit a pothole so deep that it popped my tire on impact. Oh I was in a bad part of town, and I just kept driving.

SPEAKER_00 46:47

That's you know what? That's good instinct.

SPEAKER_03 46:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 46:50

You know, a lot of people don't know. You blow your tire, you can just keep driving. It's fine. I've driven on flat tires for hundreds of miles. Oh my god, Dan.

SPEAKER_03 46:59

That's it was like 11 o'clock at night when I got back to my house. I called triple A. I was just like, come fix my tire. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 47:06

That was the right choice.

SPEAKER_00 47:07

One of my dump trucks I drove on a flat tire for a week.

unknown 47:10

Daniel.

SPEAKER_02 47:11

Oh, I said your middle name. You gotta bleep it out.

SPEAKER_00 47:15

I mean, I had ten tires, so yeah.

SPEAKER_02 47:18

Well, I only had four. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 47:22

Bigger deal.

SPEAKER_02 47:23

Okay, so you asked me to read this. I'm gonna do my best um to do it justice. Lower Newtown Road was on the sign we approached. It was in better shape than the last, though still slightly off kilter. I slowed down to make the turn. The children at play sign behind the street sign had been overlaid with white graffiti of a line protruding from a slashed circle. Even all the way out here, people took the time to deface things. More houses that had fallen into disrepair lined either side of the road, their yards having grown in superabundance. They weren't luxury homes, more like manufactured, off the back of a tractor trailer once upon a time, but they were charming. Or they would have been had they been in their prime. Not long after I made the turn, something up ahead removed my foot from the gas pedal. Why are we slowing down? Jess's disapproval was evident, but rather than explain what I was looking at, and honestly, I didn't really know what I was looking at. I flicked my head at what stood some hundreds of feet from the car. What's that? I said. Jess made a curious sound, one that quickly gave way to a low grumble in her throat. Drive. What? The scrunched figure shuffled toward us while waving, their other hand wrapped around their stomach. Through closed windows there were distant, muffled words, and as the figure approached their features became clear. It was a man in dingy, worn out clothes and a hat that couldn't contain the ends of his greasy blonde hair. His smile said he was friendly, though it took a back seat to the bared teeth as if he were in pain. A weird combination. Sunshine, Jess said. Drive now. I think he needs help. I put the car in park, but as I unfastened my seatbelt, Jess went for my hand. I'm telling you not to go. He could be hurt, I said. That's not our problem. Hello? The man raised his voice. I could use some help here. Still, he wore that smile that aired on the side of approachable, trustworthy. Maybe that was a telltale sign I should have pondered before stopping the car. I wouldn't smile if I were in pain. I hadn't fully realized how close he was until I noticed the slight movement of his hand, the one clutching his abdomen. I couldn't so much as think twice before Jess tightened her grip on me. Drive, she said, before following it with a louder drive now. My foot stamped the gas pedal. In time with the stranger brandishing a weapon, the engine sputtered before its roar, the tires trying their damnedest to catch up with the sudden power. Once the car had finally taken off, Jess dove over me and wrenched the wheel, sending us right as the gun went off. What are you doing? Never stop for hitchhikers, she said. My hands replaced hers to straighten her zigzag maneuver that nearly sent us off road. I looked at the stranger in the rearview mirror. Another person had joined him, another man with similar clothes handling a similar gun, aimed right at us. Watch it, Jess said. When my eyes glided back to the road, we were already too close to the people who weren't there before. I braked hard and jerked the wheel. Pavement became soft earth too fast to recover from. The last thing I saw was a telephone pole. Well done, Alice. Nice. Yeah. Hopefully I didn't butcher that too badly. Um I think that is a good in a nutshell Jess and Sadie character reveal. Yeah. In terms of her naivety.

SPEAKER_03 50:23

Yeah. Unfortunately, yes. Jess would a hundred would have 100% run over that person. And was that the right choice? If Sadie hadn't paused.

SPEAKER_00 50:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 50:34

That's the that's yes. That honestly, I will say that this moment kind of shapes how Sadie grows in this book. This like this moment and what follows after is constantly brought back throughout the book because it is a p pivotal moment.

SPEAKER_02 50:56

Do you feel like there's been times where you've been more of a Sadie or a Jess, or that you had to grow into a Jess? Because that's what

Stranger Danger And Moral Wisdom

SPEAKER_02 51:01

I feel when I read these two characters, is I remember being sort of both of them at different points in my life.

SPEAKER_03 51:06

Yeah. So unfortunately, for much of my life I was a Sadie. And for a lot of aspects, I still am. But I have grown into more of a Jess in certain situations to keep myself safe, I guess. Um, but I still am Sadie that I chill try to see the best in people. I will help anyone I can. I would put myself in danger to help any any living creature. So I am both Sadie and Jess, but I have grown into being a Jess since I've been like since I was a child, unfortunately.

unknown 51:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 51:48

Because the world just shapes you.

SPEAKER_00 51:50

And now when people step out in front of your car, you don't slow down.

SPEAKER_03 51:53

Oh yeah, no, ten points. Ten points for for each body to run them over.

SPEAKER_02 52:01

I mean, it's a real thing. When I was young, I might have stopped and picked up a a hitchhiker on my own. I don't think I would do that anymore. You know, with age comes some wisdom, and it's it's sad that so you would you'd always pick them up.

SPEAKER_00 52:13

I have a hitchhiker story, but I I don't think now is the time to tell it because it's kind of long. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 52:18

Okay. One day though.

SPEAKER_03 52:20

Looking forward to that one though.

SPEAKER_02 52:22

Um, but that really resonates with me because I also was a very naive kid and I wanted to believe the best in people, but then things happen and you realize, oh, I could have protected myself there. And now I'm much more cautious than I used to be. And is that sad or is that just wisdom?

SPEAKER_03 52:37

I think it's both because it's so it's sad because we live in that type of world where you have to have that wisdom, you know? Yeah. It's just it's unfortunate. So, like, I mean, I have stories from when I was in high school where I did have that wisdom where, you know, it was always stranger danger, don't talk to strangers, don't do this, don't do that. That's what was ingrained in my generation as children. Yeah. Um, obviously, it's different with the world of the internet and social media. So, like, those kind of people still say don't talk to strangers or stranger danger, but we talk to strangers literally every day of our lives now. Just not in person, you know what I mean? So, like growing up, it was always stranger danger, don't talk to strangers, don't get into strangers' vehicles. If someone says they know your parent, um, don't believe them, stuff like that, right? But like in the generations before mine, there were random people that would go to preschool just to be like, Yeah, I'm a friend of the mom's or something, and they would just take the kid home. And it just it's kind of wild to see how things have changed throughout each generation. And I do have stories when I was in like high school where like after a school play, me and my friends would be we were waiting outside the auditorium, no everyone else was gone. It was me and two other friends. We were waiting for my dad to come pick us up, and a white van drives up. Um, unfortunately. Before that, a random person was walking, like just a person, it was really dark out. So, like a person was walking by, and then a van pulled up, asked us if we needed a ride. We said no, he drove away, and then the guy that had passed the high school came back and then started talking to us, and then the the van came back and they started talking to each other, and we were up like multiple flights of stairs, which was our only defense, and then my dad came at that exact moment and we ran to the car, and even while we drove away, we like they were looking at us from like the rearview mirror, like they were watching us. So it was quite terrifying. And we did tell the principal the next day about it because there were stories about girls, like a a couple girls got into a van, like I mean, um maybe like a month earlier or something, and they got they were kidnapped. God. So it's just it's sad that we have to, like in this world that we have to have that wisdom, unfortunately.

SPEAKER_00 54:55

Yeah. I mean, before before our generations of like Stranger Danger, you know, a van pulls up and they're like, gee, mister, you got free candy in that thing? I'd be a fool not to. But like they they they had to make psas for kids like us to be like, don't get into the van, even if they claim to have candy.

SPEAKER_03 55:16

Well, if they claim to have a puppy.

SPEAKER_02 55:18

Oh, I might have done it. Oh. Especially if they're like, this puppy needs your help. I'd be like, oh my god, I gotta help the puppy. Or we insert any animal. Really.

SPEAKER_03 55:31

Yeah, pretty much. Like, and they never heard from him again. We have a Shetland pony in this.

SPEAKER_02 55:35

Oh my god. So take me now. I've been trying to convince Dan that we can have miniature donkeys that live inside the house with us. Sidebar. I don't think I'm winning that debate.

SPEAKER_03 55:47

I mean, technically you can. You can do the same with miniature ponies.

SPEAKER_02 55:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 55:51

It's true.

SPEAKER_02 55:52

I'm not serious. I mean, I kind of am, but not right now. So I'm doing not right now.

SPEAKER_00 55:57

Not right now. Leah's like, but they're not as expensive as full-size horses. It's like, yes, but they're more expensive than any size dog.

SPEAKER_02 56:07

That is also very correct. Yeah, but then then one could be called treble and one could be called clef. Okay. I'm going down a rabbit hole again. My apologies. Uh the other thing that you've talked about with this book that is a shift in the story is that Sadie is going deeper into the wasteland.

Communities Underground And Writing Process

SPEAKER_02 56:23

And I'm curious if there were parts of that wasteland that you were really excited to explore in this book or in the the coming one, because this is not the last in the series.

SPEAKER_03 56:31

It is not. There was another, there is another book that will end the series. Um, so I mean, the funnest part of writing more of the wasteland is writing other communities and seeing how those communities have sustained themselves in this environment. And that includes um preservations, which are the quote unquote safe cities where um only the quote unquote best of the best are allowed to live. Everybody else that they don't deem valuable is shoved to the side. And we know from yesterday's gone that Jess is technically one of these uh citizens from a saved city. Um she has the tattoo to prove it, unfortunately. Um so yeah, the funnest aspect is writing the different like um different survivors, different communities, and having Sadie and Jess interact with those communities. Yeah. I do have a community that um has built tunnels between basements of houses to live. They don't go into the houses, into the above-ground houses, they just stay underground. That's what they're smart. Yeah, and they've built little tunnels between the houses to create their little community. How do they poop? There there is technically what that it's a b so like people's I mean, pe some people do have like finished basements, but they have like little corners with buckets. And they do go outside. They do go outside because they do have guard duties and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_02 58:05

Yeah, that makes sense. I have to ask because we we just recently had our poop apocalypse episode.

SPEAKER_03 58:10

Yeah, it's like no. It's very fair, it's a very fair question because a lot of people are like, well, how come we never see people pooping in zombie apocalypse movies? It's like, is that really relevant to the plot right now? Do you really want to spawn and see someone taking a shit for no reason? Just like they go poop and nothing happens, they're just sitting around the toilet. Yeah. Like I only the only time I want to see someone sitting on the toilet is if they are attacked by a zombie at that moment. It's gotta be relevant to the plot.

SPEAKER_00 58:37

Maybe the plot is that they can't poop.

SPEAKER_02 58:42

You do have a bathroom scene in your um remind me what your season one choose your own adventure book is called? Undead Days. Undead Days, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 58:50

There's no lesson. For surviving the zombie apocalypse. Yes, there is a little bathroom scene, but that's not post-apocalypse. It's still outbreak, so all the bathrooms are still functional. Right.

SPEAKER_02 59:03

Oh, yeah. But it is uh I it has inserted into a fear that I have now of being in the bathroom and a zombie could come in at any moment.

SPEAKER_03 59:10

That is that is another scene where Nina was very my sister, sorry. My sister was very upset with the choices that were made in that scene. She's very upset. She's like, Are you kidding me? Why? And I was like, I don't know. I don't make any choices. I don't choose. The only time I ever choose is when it's a draw between choices, and it's and at that point it's a random generator that chooses.

SPEAKER_02 59:38

Really? Wow, you really take it out of your own hands.

SPEAKER_03 59:41

Yeah, because it's that's the point of it, right? So I mean, I do have like a general idea of like how like where I want the story to go, but it's about how I get there.

SPEAKER_00 59:50

So you know, the choose your own adventure series, um, Undead Days. It's it's kind of like having um having ARC readers that are there while you're writing it chapter to chapter.

SPEAKER_05 1:00:05

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:06

And uh like, you know, through through social media and various other means, you've you've you've kind of gotten this like street team of ARC readers, some who are reading the undead days, but also some that you're sending your your novels to for advanced reading. Um how how important do you think that is for your writing to hear early from these readers about what they think about the book?

SPEAKER_03 1:00:31

I think it is a very important step of the process because as the author of the book, I am too close to the book, like too close to the story, too close to the character, too close to the writing, where I need an outside perspective. I need to know if this makes sense, that makes sense, the characters are likable or unlikable, respectively. So I think it is very important to have readers that aren't afraid to tell you the truth, which is I mean, when I was posting the undead days on Facebook, I didn't no one was really giving me any sort of writing feedback. Um, I didn't necessarily ask for it, but everyone was kind of just in the moment and enjoying the story for what it was. You know what I mean? Rather than looking at it with a critical eye, um, because they were reading it because they wanted to find out how um the story fared after the previous choice, and now they want to know what my choice like what their choices are now. So they get to choose. So I didn't necessarily get any writing feedback um from those. I did ask my sister after I posted what her thoughts were. Wow, I'm an author. What her thoughts were. This is why I have an editor, everybody.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:47

It's okay. You should hear the number of times, Dan, I fuck up on this show.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:52

I have an editor. Um, but I would ask my sister after every time that I posted it what her thoughts were, because she is one of the most honest people I know. And I know a lot of people will be like, never get your writing critiqued by family or friends, but my sister is very honest, brutally like brutally so, and she is not afraid to tell you the truth. So I would always ask her, like, how was this? How was that? And she would she was giving me that feedback, you know? Yeah, but that's because I actually was seeking it out. Um, but with my ARCs, and I did have a beta reader, I had a single beta reader for tomorrow never came, mostly because I have a tough time finding beta readers. And so this is this this was the this is the third book in the series. In order to have beta readers, they would have had to read the other two books.

SPEAKER_05 1:02:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:40

Or at least Yesterday's Gone. But this beta reader has read The Collapse, Yesterday's Gone, and a couple of my other books too. Um, so I had her beta read and she was excited to do it. She loved it. She gave me wonderful feedback that made me rethink some things, reword some things, and just overall made me a stronger writer, in my opinion.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:02

That's great.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:04

Um, and then I gave it to my editor. They did their thing, you know, they loved it too. Um, I've been working with my editor for years. They they they've edited all of my books, uh each one of them. Um, and then after that, and I implemented the feedback. I my book is now with advanced readers. And so far, the feedback from my advanced readers has been very positive. I'm very excited for that.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:30

That's awesome. And

Where To Buy Events And Inspiration

SPEAKER_02 1:03:31

just a little bit of a moment of like time, time warp, right now, you can go get tomorrow never came. It is out. So right now is in when you're listening to this, it is out. Right now is when I'm saying this, it is not out.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:43

Yeah, not before you're listening to this. Yes, don't go into the past.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:47

But if you're listening, tomorrow has come despite the name of the book.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:54

So if you've enjoyed The Collapse and Yesterday is gone, tomorrow never came is available.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:58

Yeah, or you can get started. If you love to like dive into a series, you've got three books to read, like that's a win.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:04

Yeah. I love having having a surplus of books to read when I dive into something. Get really into it.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:12

And that's why I need to start focusing on aftermath because my scatter brain and like my little demon on my shoulders, it's like, yeah, but what about that other series you could be also writing? And I'm just like, no, I need to focus on this series so I can finish it. And that's why I have what almost like what 10 books out, I think. I because I'm crazy. No, my brain is like, you could be writing this also, and I'm like, you're you're curve totally correct, I could, and then I do it.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:41

It's called dopamine chasing that dopamine.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:44

Pretty much, because I I've already outlined an entire new book that has nothing to do with any of my series. None of the zombies outlined, of course. Um, there's also lesbians. Um two things we can count on from Alice B.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:59

Sullivan.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:01

Two things. Also, the dog will never die. So three? I will not tell you.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:08

Is that a spoiler? It's okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:11

Because I need to focus on aftermath, so I can't really talk about the book. I just I outlined the book and I wrote chapter one because I'm a freaking lunatic. But I'm like, no, you gotta stop working on this and you gotta work on this. So tomorrow never came is complete, it's available, and now I am working on Destination Tomorrow's sequel.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:30

Which is also very exciting. And we're all gonna be together again at Living Dead weekend, which is taking place, I think, starting on June 12th through the 14th. You should come see us there. Yeah, you got time to plan. This is April 5th. Get your ass to Monroeville Mall. It's probably the very last time because Walmart has taken it over. They're gonna start renovations in 2027. It's dead.

SPEAKER_05 1:05:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:54

Yeah. Bummer. Yeah. Um, before we finish, though, there was one question I have to ask you, which is What inspired you to write the series in the first place? Because this is your first series, right?

SPEAKER_05 1:06:04

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:04

Yes. So what inspired you to write it? What what what made you be like, I gotta write a book about lesbians and zombies?

SPEAKER_00 1:06:13

And also, why didn't you just call it that?

SPEAKER_01 1:06:16

Lesbians and zombies. I would read that. Are you kidding? Lesbians versus zombies. Yes. Alice, add that to your ideal list.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:26

I mean, technically all my books. That's almost all my books.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:30

What if that's your micro genre is lesbians versus zombies?

SPEAKER_03 1:06:34

It might as well be at this point.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:36

Because if like because if the lesbians aren't the main characters, you can still count on lesbians being somewhere in the series. Because even in Symbiosis, even though that the beginning is following Philip, his daughter is a lesbian and she will be taking over the series. So lesbians everywhere.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:53

I do have a I don't think you've seen it yet. Maybe I haven't sent you a picture, but on the well, Dan, you can read it. Read my sticker.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:59

Oh yeah. Leah has a sticker um on the back of their laptop that says promote lesbianism.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:06

I think we've effectively done that via this episode and your books today.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:10

You're welcome. But yeah, what inspired the series?

SPEAKER_03 1:07:14

So growing up, I I grew up on Resident Evil. It has always been like my favorite game franchise. Um, even the movies are my guilty pleasures. I watched The Walking Dead when it came out in 2010 from the pilot episode until you know it's still ongoing. And I was in like high school when it aired. So I've just been watching and consuming all types of zombie media since childhood. I don't know why I latched onto it. It was probably a mixture of Resident Evil and when I was like 10 years old watching the 2004 remake of Dawn of the Dead, Too Late at Night. Um, that kind of solidified the fact that I loved this genre and I just never looked back. But I started writing in middle school and I knew I wanted to write, but I never really understood what I wanted to write. Um but then I kind of realized, because I wasn't a big reader when I was younger, but then I realized, oh, well, maybe I don't like these books because they're not zombie books. What if I pick up a zombie book? Um, so I picked up a zombie book and I was like, this is a lot better. And just formulating the story that I had and drafting it and outlining it, I just could not get myself to sit down and write it. Um, you know, I would get like chapters, but then I would throw those chapters away, or there would be just like random nonsense stream of consciousness stuff. But Sadie has always been the main character. Sadie and Trooper and Todd have always been, and Jess have always been the core characters of the series. They have never changed. Um, everything surrounding them has changed, but they never changed. It wasn't until I read Newsflesh, specifically Feed by Mira Grant, that I realized I need to get writing because I loved that book so much that I bought the other ones, consumed them and her Rise collection, went on to buy her other books and consumed them like they were water. Um, so her new, like Mira Grant's Newest Flesh series really lit the pants, like with the fire under my pants to get me to write the aftermath series.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:32

When you were like, I'm gonna write this, was there something about that series that you were like, this is my own take? Or like this is something that I now it's got my brain thinking, like, was it what like what was the carryover moment of like this was great, but I need to create this, which is the aftermath series?

SPEAKER_03 1:09:48

I think it was just the fact that she like Mira Grant really Sean and Maguire, Mira Grant's her is a pseudonym. Shonen really dives into the science of everything, and I love that. I think it's horrific, I think it's like terrifying in the best way possible if it's that much more realistic. So reading newsflash, diving into the science of it all, seeing how the world adapted, you know, over 20 years post-outbreak, even though zombies do exist in that universe. So they had like an idea of how to handle the situation, just kind of seeing how Sean developed that world made me wonder how I could develop my own world if it was post-outbreak. Maybe not 20 years, but just enough into the outbreak to for everything to fall in disrepair and make people band a band together in their own communities or go solo and do their own thing. But it was just seeing the world building um in that universe really kind of lit my brain up and made me wonder how I could construct my own universe with these characters.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:03

Which you do an amazing job of. I love like, and especially the post-apocalypse 10 years in part. The collapse is great too because it shows you how things literally collapse and the science a little bit behind it. So that's interesting to hear. But um, that's what always makes me amazed by writers. You read a book and then you're like, I gotta write a book, and that is the difference between you and me.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:25

Right? It's like I read a book, now I gotta write one. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:28

I'm like, I'm just reading a book, and then I'm like, that was good. And then I'm not like, you know what I need to do? I've just read Yesterday's Gone by Alice B. Sullivan. I gotta write my own zombie lesbian book. Like, that's not that's not what I mean. Maybe I should now. You could I'm not I don't have that magic sauce that you all have. You can certainly try the pea pocalypse now thing in like a peakalypse now, that's what it's called. It's just not for me. Maybe it was the wrong topic. I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:56

It could be. You just gotta figure out the stor like I mean it's all about really figuring out the story you want to tell and making that environment complement the story you want to tell.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:08

So yeah. But not everybody's a storyteller, I guess is my point. That's fair. You have like you felt compelled to. That's the difference. You feel compelled to. You wrote you wrote three books in an eight or nine month period, and now you're working on another one that will probably you're hoping to be done for living down.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:27

Late May, yeah, late May or early June. I have I'm talking to my cover artist about commissioning the cover to match destination tomorrow's cover. Um, so yeah. And I gotta talk to my editor about squeezing the sequel in at some point.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:43

That'll be fun. Well, in the meantime, people have if if they're midway through the series, they've got a book that should be able to pick up now. If they're brand new to you, there's a whole series to start, three books to start with, plus you said ten in total. So there's a whole universe that you can dive into. You said I think you said ten, you're counting.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:59

As as an author, I think I have like ten or eleven books. But like aftermath will be aftermath is huge. It's planned to be huge. Currently has one, two, three, four, five. Five books, and then DT's sequel will make six books.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:14

Yeah, so there's a whole world that you can dive into. Where can people find you in your books?

SPEAKER_03 1:13:20

I sell through Amazon, or if you would like um assigned paperback, I do sell direct. You just gotta message me. Um, I don't have an online store yet, unfortunately, but I am most active on Facebook. Um, and I do have a website, AliceB Sullivan.com.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:37

Which has amazing video trailers that Alice made themselves. Highly recommend. If you want to get the vibes of any of the books, I think the one that really got me was the collapse video.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:48

Yeah, I mean yeah. I made two of the for the collapse when I first debuted that in 2021. I just, I don't know. I like slicing footage and making little promotional book trailers.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:00

I mean, that's that's a good skill to have when you have to do all the work yourself.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:05

Pretty much, yeah. But it like, I mean, if it forces you to think out of the box and you learn a new skill. And I think skills are valuable. Even if you do nothing with it other than to satisfy yourself, that's even better. Like a jack of all trades is, in my opinion, the best outcome than being something like being a pr professional in one thing.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:26

Right?

SPEAKER_00 1:14:27

And I mean, your writing and all all of the you know, trailers that you've made and the art that you've put out um has just shown how passionate you are about your art. And that passion shines through.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:40

I love the expression. The whole point of art, in my opinion, is the expression um and the process of it rather than the finished product. So that's the whole process of it, even though it can be grueling at times because you're like, oh my god, I mixed I missed a pixel or something silly like that, and it takes hours just to edit something. I think it's worth it because you learn every time, you get better every time. Yeah. Um, and I just think it's an important skill to have, like to just sort of expand your already existing skills. And there's no there's nothing wrong with that, in my opinion. Like you might just you might think that you're only an author, but you can be much more if you just try.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:22

Yeah. You have to have that curiosity and drive though. Uh what is it like now to finally have Tomorrow Never Came out in the world?

SPEAKER_03 1:15:30

It's um terrifying and very surreal. Um it's been a labor of love. This book in particular, just because um, like knowing what I was going to write, I wanted to do it justice. So Sadie's character of development is obviously very important to the series as a whole. And knowing what I was going to write was the most difficult part because I needed to make sure that I could execute it to the best of my ability. And according to my editor, I did. Yay! Um, so I think that's a good sign. I do hope people enjoy it. If they don't, that's totally fine. Um, I did try my best, at least. That's I can always I can be happy because I know I tried my best to portray Sadie in this world. So I'm very excited that it is finally out. I can sleep for like one day before, you know, going on to my next book.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:30

Yeah, and your sister Nina is basically like your informal manager. She's like, you can't rest. You need to have book two in this other part of the aftermath series for Living Dead weekend. And I selfishly appreciate that about her, but also I hope that you get you give yourself some time to celebrate now that the book is out.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:46

Yes, I I celebrated a little bit by you know watching a couple zombie movies and a zombie show, and that's it, I think. And then I was like, you know what? I'm gonna start DT's sequel. I think that's a good thing. So I did that.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:02

I don't know. You you celebrated the way that most authors celebrate by just starting the next thing.

SPEAKER_05 1:17:08

Right? Like on to the next one.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:11

It's like you pat yourself on the back for half a second, then you're like, all right, new file.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:19

Exactly. And I am excited for DT's sequel because I I released what DT in 2022, I think. So it's been a few years. I can't even remember because my brain is all over the place. Um, and I have had many readers message me asking me about this specific sequel. They want to know if they're gonna kiss again, Alice. Yeah, right. Um, so it'll and I am very excited for this sequel because it'll complete the duology of the destination series, which is a small companion series to Aftermath. And there are Easter eggs in my companion stories that connect all of these stories together, especially the end of Tomorrow Never Came.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:04

I have a secret question. Okay, which is I just realized this one's called Tomorrow Never Came, the other one's called Destination Tomorrow. So do they arrive at tomorrow?

SPEAKER_03 1:18:17

So the reason it's titled Destination Tomorrow is the characters are trying to survive the night and just make it until daylight, essentially. So like the main character, Sarah, her whole point was just living and not doing anything else but going it, like doing it day by day. She never thought about the future. She's like, I could literally die today. It's what like I just gotta live, survive, that's it. But then Kat comes along and she and Kat thinks about the future, and Kat kind of teaches Sarah that there's more to the world than just surviving. Like you have to live. And I think there is a distinction between survival and living that Sarah did not have before meeting Kat. So the whole point of the title was Destination Tomorrow was getting to tomorrow. And the whole point of tomorrow never came is kind of the bleakness of the apocalypse. Like the tomorrow that you thought was going to happen never happened, and this is what tomorrow brought us instead. So the whole mantra of yesterday's gone, tomorrow isn't promised, all you have is today. So you fight for that and that alone because you don't know what tomorrow is gonna look like. So the tomorrow that you thought was going to happen never did, and this is what tomorrow brought instead.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:33

That's really cool. It's kind of like they bookend each other in terms of like the the tension in the apocalypse, which is you gotta survive, but you also need to have hope.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:42

This is so millennial of you. There's no such thing as tomorrow. We can only live for today because tomorrow is the apocalypse. Yeah. Also yesterday was the apocalypse. And also today is the apocalypse.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:58

Every day is the apocalypse, essentially, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:20:00

But we have more apocalypses over there. Well, I know we will have the pleasure of continuing to talk to you, but for this episode, I think we have come to the end. Thank you so much for joining us again. And thank you for celebrating your book release with us. I feel so privileged. Thank you.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:14

Thank you for having me. Are we going to announce the next book in the club?

Feed Announcement And Final Goodbyes

SPEAKER_03 1:20:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:22

I think you should do it as the person who suggested it. And uh then it got we did a poll on Patreon, which we like to call Free Treon because you don't have to pay to be there. In fact, that's kind of the point.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:32

Uh in a world that where everything costs money, you get this little thing for free, so you should check it out.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:39

Yeah, in the same way that you have your offering of your um Facebook Choose Your Own Adventure series, that's sort of our offering of community is on Patreon. But, anyways, you suggested it at our last book club discussion. You're like, feed first book in the newsflush series by Mira Grant. We gotta do it. And then by far and away, it is the winner in our poll on Patreon.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:00

So I am so excited. Oh, I've read this book so many times and so excited to discuss it.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:06

Do you want to host that discussion, Alice?

SPEAKER_03 1:21:08

I will try. I don't know what that means, but I will do my best.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:13

Let's talk about it. Because I feel like you've got if anyone has like the deepest version of questions and insights, I mean, how many times have you read this book? So many times. Can you count on your two hands?

SPEAKER_03 1:21:24

I think I got I think I got this book 2015? I can't even remember. And so one, two, three. I'm gonna say at least five times, but it's it's more than times. Whenever I feel blocked, I pick it up. That's amazing.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:39

Yeah, it's very conference series. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I I gotta say, I got I started it uh a couple days ago just to see see uh see what it was like. Um got a few chapters in and I'm already loving it. So I see exactly why you love the series.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:55

Yeah. And we're not talking about it on the book club until the end of May. So my recommendation to the folks listening is go pick up Tomorrow Never Came and the whole series, if you haven't gotten that yet, read that, and then go read what inspired it. I think that would be a really cool reader's journey if you haven't read Feed. Or if you've read Feed, then you can see how I think like as writers, we uh we ha ha, you all inspire each other. Good job, thank you. As the lucky consumer of your words. Um, but in the meantime, everybody, don't die. Oh yeah, don't die. Yeah. Stay alive. Stay alive. Stay alive ha ha ha ha ha. Staying alive. Staying alive. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:36

Goodbye, everybody.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:37

Bye-bye. Yay, we did it.