Joseph Pesavento's World of Horror | Zombie Book Club Ep 147

Horror and zombie author Joseph Pesavento joins us to dig into what really drives undead fiction; the freedom, the collapse of rules, and the uncomfortable truth that the living are often the bigger threat. We trace his writing journey from a childhood journal inspired by Nickelodeon's Doug through film school screenplays to seven published books, and get into the practical, unfiltered reality of going indie. Joseph also breaks down Death Cleanse, his militarized zombie road-trip novel about the man who caused the outbreak, now trapped in an eerie Montauk bunker steeped in real conspiratorial history with a gore level that doesn't flinch.

Guest Links & Contact

Joseph Pesavento

• Website: josephpesavento.com
• Instagram: @josephpesaventowrites
• Death Cleanse (signed copy): josephpesavento.com/product-page/death-cleanse-signed

Transcript

Cold Open And Guest Intro

SPEAKER_00 0:25

Don't ask me how it works, but if you eat a book, it's probably going to clean you out. I'm Dan, and when I'm not death cleansing at least once a day, I'm writing a book that I don't recommend eating.

SPEAKER_04 0:35

There is no way to follow that up. So I'm just gonna say I'm Leah, and today we are chatting with Joseph Pesavento, a horror and zombie author we met last year at Living Dead Weekend, and he is here to talk with us about all things writing and zombies, including you guessed it from Dan's very unhinged intro, his zombie book, Death Cleanse. Joseph Pesavento has been writing since he was 11, inspired by the Nickelodeon show Doug. We're gonna have to unpack that in a moment. Yeah, I love that show. After starting a journal at the same age, he began with short stories and screenplays before shifting to novels as his ideas grew bigger. Now with seven books out and counting and more on the way, he's building a growing body of work from his home in Hudson Valley, New York. Welcome to the show, Joseph. We're so happy to finally have you here.

SPEAKER_01 1:18

Thank you for having me. I uh was looking forward to this. Um, I mean, we've been talking about it for quite a while.

Living Dead Weekend And Zombie Community

SPEAKER_01 1:25

Um, and I was saying before we started that like um I was introduced to you guys because so many people were doing uh the book crawl um at the show, and I was just like, I don't know what this is, but uh no. Um, but then uh Alice B. Sullivan, who is a mutual friend, told told me about you guys. And then I think I don't know, one of you came up to my table or like we were chatting when I um just doing our rounds, but uh yeah, I mean I I started listening then. I don't even know what episode I was on, but I mean I I listened to Alice's episode this week just to kind of like get a refresher.

SPEAKER_00 2:05

Nice, yeah. Alice is great. It's always amazing when it's like you know, you you you meet somebody randomly, and it just so happens that you have this slight crossover of like zombies. You know, it happens to us a lot. Horror zombies, yeah. And then it's like, yeah, I know Alice. It's always Alice, too.

SPEAKER_04 2:26

It is always Alice, and it's like, well, if you like Alice and I like Alice, I think we're gonna be friends, like Alice being the per like Alice quality human. It's the litmus test. It is. Do you like Alice?

SPEAKER_00 2:36

Yeah. I think we need I think we all need like a Alice t-shirt for then we could just uh a t-shirt with a giant face, her face on it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:48

She would hate that.

SPEAKER_00 2:49

It would just hang out at her table.

SPEAKER_04 2:51

Maybe if we do like something from her art, from one of her books or the artist rendition of her, but if we did like a random photo of her face, she would kill all of us. Alice does sell merch. I guess we could buy that. We could buy merch. That's a much better idea. Um, but it's it is a small world in the zombie world. And I remember being like, oh no, there were two authors, you and um another group that I hope to eventually interview. I think it's called Wither Novels, that we found when we were there. And I was we created this whole author crawl, as you know. And then I realized I was like, there are people there. I hope that it at least helped you a little bit. Um, but the intention was like to help get people moving around and talking to all the zombie authors. So we're both going to be there this year and not sure what the plans are gonna be for 2026. June 12th to the 14th, folks. If you're thinking about going, you should come and say hi to all of us. Um, but we will be doing something and we'll certainly be pointing you in Joseph's direction if you happen to come across us. So

Rapid-Fire Apocalypse Scenarios

SPEAKER_04 3:47

we have some rapid-fire questions for science that we ask everybody who's a first-time guest on the show.

unknown 3:52

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 3:53

Gut reaction, don't think too hard. You ready? Yes. Okay, you get to choose the 40-hour work week or the zombie apocalypse. The whole world is dead. Zombie. That was way too fast. Tell us why.

SPEAKER_01 4:08

Um I've done the 40-hour work week for I don't remember when I started where like 15 years. Um, and I think that uh our society started on, you know, like the barter system or trading. Um, but I think we need more of like an aggressive turn. So like, you know, for me at least, like I'm not a huge fan of some of my neighbors. So yeah, the sirens go up today and you know, like the TV says, you know, the zombie apocalypse has begun. I'm just gonna raid uh my less favorable neighbor's house. I mean, that's a plan. And then and then whatever, I mean, if they don't make it, I'll just take parts from their or like pieces from their house and just board them my house.

SPEAKER_00 4:51

That does solve the problem of like materials.

SPEAKER_04 4:54

Something tells me that this man is a horror author.

SPEAKER_01 4:58

Yeah, I mean, and then and then also like there's there's no there's at least um a little bit of excitement with the zombie apocalypse with the 40-hour work week, it's just kind of like yeah, you know, I gotta talk to um you know that that annoying manager, that annoying coworker every single day. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:18

Yeah. Day in, day out, you know. You gotta smile, wake up, drive to work, sit there for what I was promised would be eight hours, but usually ten days.

SPEAKER_04 5:30

Which is not a break. It's like some form of extra torture. And you're like, well, can I leave? And they're like, no. And then you're like, but is it a break then?

SPEAKER_00 5:40

And then you drive home, you go to sleep, and you start it all over again.

SPEAKER_03 5:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:44

But yeah, the the zombie apocalypse. I find that um in a lot of stories, at least, not not every story, but in a lot of stories, it's kind of like the promise of freedom to like break free from the the societal norms that just govern us and turn us into like really boring versions of ourselves.

SPEAKER_04 6:05

Boring zombies. I'm more interested in the flesh-eating kind. I'm dealing with those. Uh so you've raided your neighbor's house. Good, good choice. It is a zombie apocalypse now in these questions. You've rated your neighbor's houses that you hate. Maybe you've picked up some others that you get along with. I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 6:23

I don't know. Okay. I kind of I kind of felt HOA vibes, but I guess I guess you could have these these uh animosities without a governing body over your neighborhood.

SPEAKER_01 6:35

Yeah, it's just uh differences of um, I guess, landscaping and decor. I just don't need to talk to you anymore.

SPEAKER_00 6:50

Yeah, yeah. Just don't ever bring it up, and then they won't know.

SPEAKER_04 6:53

I'm a big fan of a very messy lawn. Um, and that doesn't do well in a lot of situations. So because uh a friend of ours actually is living in Norwich, Norwich, Greenwich, Connecticut. Is that the right? Maybe. I don't know. I don't know where it's Greenwich, Connecticut. Does that sound like a thing to you, Joseph?

SPEAKER_03 7:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 7:09

Okay. Um, just temporarily, and it's at her friend's house, and that she has like a sign that says this is like a certified wildlife habitat in her front yard, and still the neighbors complain and call the cops about it and like try and get it taken down.

SPEAKER_00 7:22

So oh, because it's messy. They were trying to do the um like return to nature yard.

SPEAKER_04 7:29

Yeah, yeah. So it doesn't look like a perfect green lawn. Yeah. Um, but regardless, we're in the zombie apocalypse now. You have figured things some things out, and you happen across what do we want to say, Dan? Like a large warehouse nearby.

SPEAKER_00 7:42

Yeah, yeah. You you find a warehouse, uh it is it is full of a shelf stable food item. For some reason, you get to choose what it is. We don't know what the magic is. There's magic involved, I think. Um, but it you have a choice. Like, what do you want, what would you want that warehouse to be full of, and you're gonna eat that for the rest of your life.

SPEAKER_01 8:03

Um I have an answer, but like like um are we talking like a specific dish or just like a food in general?

SPEAKER_04 8:11

As long as it's shelf stable, it can be anything you want. And I always like to say you can forge or find other things to go with it. This is like your main food source.

SPEAKER_01 8:21

Main food source. I mean, my my unhealthy answer would probably be like pork rinds, because at least there's some protein in that.

SPEAKER_00 8:28

All right. Um for a small time of my life live off of pork rinds, and I don't know if I'd want to do that again. Um But if you really love them, I guess.

SPEAKER_01 8:42

Yeah, I mean, if I I mean if refrigeration is is uh a problem, then I would have to do something like that. We're like like veggie chips or something like that. Or like I mean, there's unhealthy answers, but I'm I'm thinking if I'm gonna be running around and fighting people and killing the undead, then we can't really be doing like Snickers bars and like sour cream and onion all the time.

SPEAKER_00 9:07

I don't know. Snickers bars have a lot of protein in them. Do they? Yeah, they have peanuts.

SPEAKER_04 9:12

Okay, we're looking up right now. What is the protein content of a stick Snickers bar? I need to know. Does anyone want to guess on on like just what we think it is? I'm gonna say how many grams? 15 grams of protein.

SPEAKER_01 9:22

What do you think, Joseph? On a king size, maybe, but like on a regular size, I'd probably say like 11.

SPEAKER_04 9:29

Y'all are both way off. A single bar is about four grams of protein. Oh, that's not why I'm getting the gains that I've been trying to get. A king size is 10 grams of protein. Then apparently they sell a high protein bar. We should be getting sponsorship from Snickers right now. 15 grams to 20 grams of protein if you get the high protein bar. So Snickers not a good idea. Although now I want to know about you've done this to me. I'm sorry. Now I have to find out how much is in pork rinds because maybe it's less.

SPEAKER_00 9:57

It's gotta be a lot more. I mean, it's deep fried skin.

SPEAKER_04 10:01

Nine grams per half an ounce. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:04

That sounds pretty effective. That's pretty good.

unknown 10:06

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_01 10:06

I'll do an even better answer. If I'm in a warehouse, I'm assuming it's gonna be some sort of like wholesale like Costco or BJ's or sands. I'll go chickpeas because they definitely have protein. Oh yeah. I just eat that by a handful.

SPEAKER_00 10:20

Yeah, they're delicious. Are we are we talking like canned chickpeas or dried?

SPEAKER_01 10:24

Dried with like the like the seasoning. Oh. So it's like it's it's basically like chips, but you're not gonna die from sodium in like a year and a half.

SPEAKER_00 10:32

Yeah, I've I don't know, I don't know if I've ever done that, but I could see it being a thing.

SPEAKER_04 10:36

You know when you've roasted the chickpeas on the uh um, it's the same basically, but it's like pre-made in a package, like chips. You never had that? No. Oh, well, now we're gonna have to go and find some. Uh, last question that is we do all for all people, and then we have one especially for you. You find a working solar-powered DVD player somehow, and only one box set of a DVD. Yeah, of anything, could be a show you watched, a movie, a movie trilogy. It's a thing you and your family are gonna watch forever. What is it?

SPEAKER_01 11:05

Forever. Oh man. Um, I have no rapid fire for that. Um uh has to be has to be like a sitcom that I could watch forever. I'm gonna go say by the bell. I've we have not heard that one before. And I could watch that. Yeah, I know I have a box set. I remember when like uh one there was an FYE by us that was closing, and I bought that, and I haven't touched it yet. So say by the bell. It's time. And it's it's a pretty good range because you have like Good Morning Miss Bliss, when it was it was basically like when they were like really young, and then you have all of like high school Zach Morris's um weird, like manipulative behavior, and then you have the college years, and then you have like the them getting married.

SPEAKER_04 11:49

Wow. I don't think I got that far into the story. They got married, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:54

They went away to like I think it was like a Vegas trip and they were gone to get married.

SPEAKER_04 11:58

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 11:58

But also I could deep dive in that because there's like conspiracy theories about Zach in um like the high school era that he was like a serial killer. Whoa, he meets the uh criteria for like um highly intelligent, uh poor relationship with his father, uh manipulative. There was an episode where he put like a hidden message on tapes and like gave it out to everyone and they would do whatever he asked. And then someone found out about it and they did the same thing. And then you notice like there was a handful of girlfriends that he like dated once and like they never returned, including one who was in a wheelchair.

SPEAKER_00 12:34

Yeah, you would have seen that person in the background if they were still around.

SPEAKER_04 12:39

Well, this I think I know the answer to your question, but I still have to ask it, which is which save the bell character do you think would be the best at surviving the zombie apocalypse? Is it Zach because he's also serial killer?

SPEAKER_01 12:49

That or I would say Screech because he's a genius. Yeah. And he would probably have like a very crafty way of um isolating and find some sort of like either not so much a cure, but a way of like sustaining long term.

SPEAKER_04 13:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:04

He'd be setting up all the windmills and solar panels for sure. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 13:07

Screech would definitely be good to have around. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:10

I mean who's gonna be doing the killing.

SPEAKER_04 13:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:12

Yeah. Well, which means there's probably a high likelihood that he'll be the first one infected, you know. Um, yeah, uh something that I think about a lot is like whether or not a certain zombie movie or TV show would be good if you took the saw the zombies out of it. But with Safe by the Bell, I'm wondering what would it be like if you put zombies in it? Like I could see it as a full-on zombie apocalypse TV show. Well, it's not too late.

SPEAKER_01 13:36

I mean, I guess you could start the show with like them, like the them boarding up the school, and then the entire show is about them just like living in the school.

SPEAKER_00 13:44

Yeah. You wouldn't have to change too much. It'd be a comedy, but I think I think it'd be I think it'd be a good combo.

SPEAKER_04 13:52

It's like Pride, Prejudice, and Zombies. It's saved by the bell uh saved by the bell from zombies. Yes. Is that the name?

SPEAKER_00 13:58

Save from zombies.

SPEAKER_04 14:00

You could write that, Joseph. That's my special request.

SPEAKER_01 14:04

I mean, I'm not supposed to it.

SPEAKER_04 14:06

Make it really dark, though. Make Zach a serial killer, it has to be.

SPEAKER_01 14:10

Yeah. I mean, there's a there's there's an added layer of like school shootings too, if like some of them got it. Oh

If The Convention Turns Real

SPEAKER_01 14:16

yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:16

So you know, this is something that we were thinking about um when we were at Living Dead Weekend, which is what would we do if the zombie apocalypse started while we were at Living Dead Weekend? You know, like we're there, everybody's everybody's talking about zombies already. Uh, some people are dressed as zombies, but then real zombies show up and we realize that there's been an outbreak. Uh, I imagine there'd probably be a delay.

SPEAKER_04 14:46

I would like to create an even more specific scenario based on the room that we were all in. I think it was hall A. I don't remember what the hall was, but the hall we were in, Tom Savini was signing his autograph. I got one, at the back of that hall. So imagine that somebody in that lineup suddenly, I mean, they've been bit, they've been incubating for a while.

SPEAKER_00 15:06

They're patient zero.

SPEAKER_04 15:07

Patient zero. Bites Tom Savini. Chaos ensues, Joseph. What do you do? What's your first move?

SPEAKER_01 15:14

Um, I would be a little excited initially because I'm like, this is like kind of the dream, given where we are too. Like if it's gonna happen in any mall in the world, it has to be that one. Um the good thing about Tom Savini turning into a zombie is you know, he's in his what mid 70s, late 70s. So like I'm not really worried about like fast-based zombies. Um I would probably use because now we have some sort of idea of navigating like the catacombs of the mall. So like if I wanted to, if if it got bad really quick, I would just navigate those. Um if I had if I had to fight, I think I could hold off a little bit because that mall doesn't get overwhelmingly busy unless it's living dead weekends. Yeah. Um that room specifically, that I think that glass wall would kind of come in handy. Just pop a few of them through that. Um shards of glass. Um Yeah, and then and then escalators right there. That's true. I guess it depends who I was with too, like if I wanna if I wanted to fight or just get out.

SPEAKER_04 16:23

Oh, I'm gonna make it extra hard for you. Baby Remick is around. He's with you.

SPEAKER_01 16:27

Oh, I would just I would just leave. Um yeah, I I think I would just grab them, run through the run through the hallways and find like the service elevator.

SPEAKER_00 16:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:39

Assuming my car is not like the back of the parking lot.

SPEAKER_00 16:41

Also, when we were there, there were like all these flood warnings. Yeah, that was stressful. And that like every five minutes they're like, there's a flood coming, you're all gonna die. So I can only imagine if that was like also part of the outbreak where it's like, ah, this flood is coming, and then this then Tom Savini gets bit. And like not only is it a zombie outbreak, but we're probably not leaving the mall because everything around us is tsunami. True.

SPEAKER_01 17:09

I mean, I would probably utilize because I know there's that mall is like ever changing where because I think that that room we were in, it's already another storefront. Yeah so like I don't even know what they're gonna do in June. Uh, but there's so many other stores on like the other side that I would just probably find one of those back hallways and just break the latch and just hide in one of those empty rooms.

SPEAKER_04 17:29

Do you go to the sorry, it's just I'm realizing that it sounds like you go to the Monroville Mall other than Living Dead weekend, because there's a there's a store there now?

SPEAKER_01 17:38

Yeah, well I went to uh it was called Malloween. Ah that was back in late September, and yeah, I I noticed that that store is already like turned over to a clothing store. Uh but I mean that was the case with my first I don't like I don't know how long you guys have been doing the show, but my very first show was in 2022, and the two stores at the bottom of the escalator, like where right in that corner, I think one's a uh it's either a clothing or sneaker store. And because um or where time and space toys is now used to be uh used to be empty, but then they turned that into like the dedicated storefront. It was at that corner store where they do like the the photo ops now.

SPEAKER_02 18:27

That makes sense.

SPEAKER_01 18:28

It moves around a little bit, and I think um obviously them trying to like keep the business going as long as possible, they probably rent out those those spaces, but I don't know if it's been like confirmed in in um like fully confirmed. I know that they were talking about tearing it down, but I know the mayor or like the I think the town mayor was just like, I won't do it if no one wants me to. So I don't really know if like it's solidified, but if it is, then um they're probably gonna try and have as much business as possible to the end.

SPEAKER_04 19:00

Yeah, I know that Walmart's definitely bought it and they have plans. I'm imagining for like a massive warehouse, but that's all I know. It's a tragedy. The national landmark. Yeah, Walmart's got plans. Yeah. Of course they always have plans. But on to less depressing things. Um actually, you know, I do have one more thing I wanted to mention at the mall because they had a 3D printing store. And so, in some ways, being in that mall would be really great in a zombie apocalypse because you could just make things.

SPEAKER_00 19:26

Yeah. They also had a pretty good smoothie place. They did.

SPEAKER_04 19:30

But a lot of those ingredients would go bad real fast once we lost.

SPEAKER_00 19:32

Yeah, we got to drink smoothies immediately.

SPEAKER_01 19:34

Yeah. Oh, and the amount of the amount of like vacant clothing stores there are, like how many like makeshift shanks you can make. Oh, yeah. Somebody's just not a natural fighter just like just saw down a uh a hanger, a wooden hanger.

SPEAKER_04 19:49

Thank you for that inspiration, Joseph. I will definitely do that if this happens.

SPEAKER_00 19:53

Yeah. Also a bunch of like uh empty metal clothing racks and stuff. Yank them off the wall, sharpen an edge.

SPEAKER_01 20:00

Not not to get too um off the rails. I have my local mall is one of the biggest malls in New York State. Um, and it it's four floors. So I always thought like of my escape plan would be that place, but you would need like a community. Yeah. So I would need like 20, 30 people. So like first floor barricade, second floor would just be like um, I would I would probably say like armory, just in case like the first floor does get overrun, you can just kind of like pick everyone off, and third and floor, third and fourth floor would be living spaces.

SPEAKER_04 20:35

Yeah. And then you could grow food on the roof.

SPEAKER_01 20:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 20:38

That sounds pretty smart. There's so many abandoned malls in the United States. I feel like this could be a whole, you know, we got a housing crisis, let's just take over some abandoned malls, make them fun.

SPEAKER_01 20:48

Yeah, and they even just tore down that that really big one in Pittsburgh, uh, Century Three, because that was that was abandoned for quite a bit. But that that place was like m like a huge, huge. I think it was one of the biggest in the mall. Like sorry, it was one of the biggest in the in the country. Wow. At the time that it was built.

SPEAKER_04 21:08

Uh, I miss a good mall, but we're in different times, especially where we are now, just if we're in Vermont, there is no nothing like that anywhere near us.

SPEAKER_00 21:16

About an hour and a half away.

SPEAKER_04 21:17

Yeah.

Doug, Journals, And Learning Craft

unknown 21:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 21:18

Um, so you started writing at 11 because of the Nickelodeon show, Doug. First of all, for people who may be younger than us and have no freaking clue who Doug is. Can you explain the show briefly and then tell us what was the connection for you? How did that get you to start writing?

SPEAKER_01 21:33

So Doug was like a kind of like a coming of age show about this kid who had very weird friends, very weird names in a in a very strange town. But he was like a very awkward kid who was like figuring out he had uh you know, a crush on a girl and like where his where he fit in with his friends and um his place in the world. And I think like 'cause I was I mean, I'm a Nickelodeon. Kid. So like I think I could definitely relate to that. And then like the fact that he kept a journal, I was like, oh, this is fascinating. Like you can like talk to yourself without being crazy. So I started doing that when I was young. But I I didn't really like write anything narrative until uh college because I went to I went to film school and I found out that I liked because I think everyone goes to film school for like something particular. Um and I did I realized that I liked writing. I I think I was decent at it. Uh and then after after film school, I started doing the like short stories just as a hobby. Um and the thing with um when you write screenplays, at least when you're starting out, you have to write for like what you can film. Uh but if you're writing um like a prose novel, you can talk about giant robots fighting dinosaurs, yeah, and you can self-publish that and put that out. But uh as far as as far as movies go, you know, you have to write for the the screen and and what's available to you. I mean, if you're if you're a like a genius uh animator or effects guy, you can do that and and and stuff, but like most people don't really have that knowledge and they don't really like they can't really like do that on a on a whim. Yeah. Um so I think I think that the the awkwardness and like figuring yourself out a young age really connected with me. Um and I I had a I I had kept a journal for over like 13, 14 years. Wow.

SPEAKER_04 23:33

Do you still have any of them?

SPEAKER_01 23:34

Yeah, I mean, most of them were just like about my day. And like at the end, it was like some sort of like thing that I needed to work on or wanted to work on. But I mean, that was also like, you know, from the time you're 11 to I think I stopped in my early 20s. I mean, like how many friends come and go, how many like girlfriends or boyfriends come and go? Um, just how many like how many things happened in your life, like your first job, your first crush, your first um what you like learning how to drive a car, graduating, going to college, graduating college, becoming an adult in the real world, and also like living in the 90s and early 2000s, which were arguably a better time.

SPEAKER_04 24:17

I think we can, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:18

Yeah, I I think that's that's pretty fair, fair assessment. Yeah. What I really love about those Nickelodeon shows, especially Doug, um, a few other ones I can think of are like rocket power and a few other things was that like you know, the 80s and 90s were a time when people, I don't know about you, but at least people in my life weren't like encouraging me to be creative or to follow my dreams. And like Nickelodeon shows were like, yeah, you could you could be a weird kid and like go with your family into the Australian Outback in an RV and talk to animals. Um you could you could uh create a a a skateboarding magazine with your friends and uh uh fight sharks. I don't know what they did in Rocket Power. I I saw like every episode.

SPEAKER_04 25:07

I thought Canadian, non-Nickelodeon, but it sounds like a weird fever dream, honestly.

SPEAKER_00 25:13

Nickelodeon was a fever dream that was like just do the things you like. And like nobody else in in my world at least was saying do what you like to do. Except for that.

SPEAKER_01 25:24

Yeah, I think that I think there was so much emphasis on being being weird. Like I think of shows like The Adventures of Pete and Pete, where like, I don't know, like a 10-year-old kid has a tattoo on his arm. Or um or like I wasn't even allowed to watch this like Red and Stimpy, like yeah, you know, pseudo-pornographic animals is just so weird. Like no one picked up on it until like, oh, this is what I was actually watching as an adult or as a kid.

SPEAKER_04 25:51

Yeah, I've had a lot of those revelations, mostly about like 80s and early 90s um shows that involve Muppets, where I'm like, wait a second, Dark Crystal was kind of weird. And so was the never-ending story. I don't know. Yeah, why was I watching a horse slowly drown in quicksand? I don't think that was helpful. But I think it does explain the horror. Like, were there any horror shows in Nickelodeon?

SPEAKER_01 26:16

Uh Are You Afraid of the Dark? Yeah. Okay. That one was I'm I think that that resonated with me more than Goosebumps. Like Goosebumps, of course, is an important staple, but like I think Are You Afraid of the Dark was a very true um to like really creating a level of dread in your head where like the opening sequence, uh like the title sequence for Are You Afraid of the Dark is is basically like the Texas Chainsaw Massacre compared to the opening for Goosebumps. Goosebumps is like very playful, like and very silly, but it's not like terrifying. Yeah. Are you fair of the dark like that title sequ sequence alone can give you nightmares?

SPEAKER_00 26:58

They like they strike up that match. It's like, oh no, it's gonna get dark. It's getting dark now.

unknown 27:04

What's gonna happen to that?

SPEAKER_04 27:06

So when did it turn for you from like I'm journaling about my life, things I'm reflecting on, to I I wanna I want to write horror.

Video Store Horror And Film School

SPEAKER_04 27:14

I want to write about scary things.

SPEAKER_01 27:16

Um I think when I was 12 or 13, we had a like a local video store. Um, like of course we had like Hollywood Video and Blockbuster, but like in our town, we had a place called I had like the it's long closed, but I had the um the name nearby video scene where it was just like I think movies were like two or three dollars and you rent them for like the night. Um so I like every Saturday night, my mom would take me. Um, but then then they had you know they had all the main movies and they had a back room which is like like R-rated action movies, and then they had like the horror section. And when I started going, like I was a little too I was I was like a little too young, like I would see the cover for I want to say was it like Creep Show, the VHS, they had like a really I don't remember what it was, they had like a really graphic image of um the dead person, and I would turn it around and like run away.

SPEAKER_00 28:13

And then I'm like, okay, I want to watch these movies now. Yeah, Dead Alive was that for me because I think it was like a a woman on the cover and she's like stretching her lips out, and underneath is a skull. Yeah, yeah. Those are like those were great because like video stores it like there were the movies that recently came out, but there was also like every movie made before then. So you just went through and you're just like, what are all these movies? I've never even heard of half of them.

SPEAKER_04 28:39

Yeah, and it's such a different tactile experience too, to like pick them up and turn the back over than like scrolling through a platform.

SPEAKER_01 28:47

Yeah, and there and VHSR is is so um, it's so underappreciated now. Uh, but I remember like I remember just um like I was aware of like the popular ones like Friday the 13th and Halloween and all those. I think I started with Friday the 13th, and I I got from most of them. Um and I did like you know, movies like The Thing as well. Um I watched that early on, Dawn of the Dead, of course. Um, so I think that there was a fascination with that, but at the same time, like I was also very into I had gotten into South Park at the time too, and a friend and a friend of mine and I were were kind of like we had a notebook of like ideas we want to do for a show, and it didn't really ever come to fruition. But um, when you're writing like that, you're like, oh, like I have ideas still that I can do on my own. And then I was like, film school would probably help me shape a lot of this. Um so like I wrote like I wrote short stuff, but I had no real like conception of structure or anything like that. And then I think in the in the early stages of me falling in love with writing, I also kind of fell in love with movies because I was already doing movies so heavily at a young age. And I didn't really have because I I think a lot of people have an older brother or a parent or an older sister that like gets them into horror when they're younger and scares them. I didn't. I figured it all out on my own. So like there are movies, I won't say any now, but like there are movies like at least when I was younger or some some now that like I hadn't seen, like classics I probably should have seen because I didn't really have like a blueprint to go off of. And as we were saying, I'm figuring out these movies, like the hard, the like the physical copy. Like, I didn't have like a database of like um like I wouldn't have known about Evil Dead unless someone told me about it. Um, and that like that was one of the movies I watched like as an adult. I didn't watch that as a kid.

SPEAKER_04 30:47

Oh, I'd actually quickly love your take on Evil Dead as an adult because I haven't watched it as an adult. I watched it obsessively um with some friends at their cottage every summer. We would eat so much of that like sugary, previously called penny candy. I don't know what it costs now, to the point where our tongues would bleed and then watch the Evil Dead series, and then I'd be terrified and not be able to sleep. So I'm curious, does it stand up?

SPEAKER_01 31:09

Uh I mean, I watched it, I don't think I watched it like recently. Like I've watched it as an adult. Like I'm 35. So like I there was a big chunk of movies from like graduating college to like I don't know, 2029-ish that I watched a lot of them. Um I haven't I haven't re-watched the first one in yeah, probably like 10 years. But I did, I like I've watched the most recent one that came out, Evil Dead Rise.

SPEAKER_04 31:36

I haven't I want to go back and watch the whole thing before I do that, which is stopping me. I didn't know there was a new one. Yeah. It was my first zombie thing that I loved, except for I didn't realize it was zombies until maybe two years ago.

SPEAKER_01 31:48

Yeah, I mean, I I know they're filming another one now, but that one was really good. Um, I enjoyed that one a lot. But it's yeah, it's it's it's like an ever-growing thing. I mean, there's there's there's people who watch like every single movie ever, and you're like, how did you have time for this? But I think a lot of that depends on they had some sort of influence that someone was watching them with them.

SPEAKER_00 32:10

Yeah, that helps. Um I watched a lot of movies when I was a kid. Uh, and then varying stages of adulthood, you either had lots of time to do it or you had no time to do it. Um during the times that I had no time to do it, I've I feel like I I've seen like five movies in the last year, maybe.

SPEAKER_04 32:29

Yeah, that's true.

SPEAKER_00 32:30

But that's only because some of them we watched twice.

SPEAKER_04 32:33

Or four times. Or four times.

unknown 32:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 32:37

Uh 25 years later. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:39

There's also like a level of um just I don't know if the words discretion, but like you kind of have to or like, or just being careful with certain movies. Like every time I hear about a movie, they're like, oh, it shocked people. People left the theater uh throwing up. Like that's something I want to watch next.

SPEAKER_04 32:55

So like Oh, that's what you're like. That's I'm adding that to the top of my list if people are throwing up.

SPEAKER_00 32:59

Somebody died in this screening.

SPEAKER_01 33:01

Okay, I'm going to that. So, so like I would I want to watch those movies, but at the same time, like I can't watch, like I've seen it, but I can't watch like a Serbian film with my wife. She would divorce me immediately. That is something you watch by yourself or you watch with like an extreme horror fan.

SPEAKER_04 33:19

Yeah, I can't handle body horror or like torture horror. Um, that movie Hostile was when I learned that about myself, and I was like, okay, it's gotta be mostly psychological uh or paranormal in some way. And zombies are fine. I can look away, those. I guess I've become desensitized because of Dan to zombie gore. Um speaking of zombie gore, I mean, you've loved zombies since you were a teenager.

What Made Zombies Click

SPEAKER_04 33:42

What is what is the movie that got you hooked, or was it a book of like what was it?

SPEAKER_01 33:46

Um so my so mine's like multimedia. So I started with video games, The House of the Dead. Um that was that was pivotal. And I think that's in the museum too. That um that room where it's just like the timeline of zombies at the Living Dead Museum. There's I think they have games on the wall. Um that and then definitely Dawn of the Dead. That was like an ear, a very a very early one. And which one? The the 79? Yeah, 79. Yeah. Also, like the the other thing too is like my dad used to take me to the mall so much as a kid that I'm also such a big mall kid. I still am. So like like zombies in a mall is just like sold. Yeah. Um that one, I didn't, I actually didn't see the um I didn't see Night of the Living Dead until I was an adult. And then I saw the the remake that Tom Savini did at Living Dead weekend in 2022, I think it was, as I screened it. Um, and then I remember I started reading The Walking Dead, I think the same year it came out. I went to a comic store and I picked it up and he was like, oh, it just got green lit for a show. So like I kept up with both of them. And um, and even even as far as music, there's uh I don't know if you guys are familiar with the band The Devil Rose Prada. Uh they have an EP that's all well, they have two EPs. One came out in 2010 and that was zombie themed. Oh, and I would that I think that's a direct influence to helping me write Death Clans.

SPEAKER_04 35:21

Wow, I'm going to be downloading this immediately because I only knew that was the movie, and I don't really love that movie, so this sounds way more fun.

SPEAKER_01 35:29

Well, the the band came, I think the band started in like 20 or sorry, 2006, and then when the movie came out or got announced, they're like, hey, our band's uh name came from the book, not the movie. Which was better. Yeah. I mean, they like they're like a metal core band, so they they don't really give off um like an an Hathaway type of like they don't like it's they're they're not really correlating.

SPEAKER_04 35:56

I that's probably why I would like them more.

SPEAKER_00 35:58

I that's I I'm glad I'm glad he uh gave us that that uh little bit of info because I'm always looking for something that kind of gives me those zombie feels. Uh recently I found um some uh somebody making music that goes by Dance with the Dead, uh specifically the the album B-Sides Volume One, which I didn't find volume two or three, but they have a volume one and it's very like synthwave, it feels like a 1985 zombie movie.

SPEAKER_04 36:29

Yeah.

Writing Death Cleanse And Plot

SPEAKER_04 36:30

When did you write when did you start writing Death Cleanse? And like where was it in the order of books for you?

SPEAKER_01 36:34

Um it was my second release, and the I'm I'm glad I I brought up like my filmmaking background because I I'd always wanted to write a zombie movie. Um, but I also I also had like a very particular scene in mind, and it was um it was it was one yeah, it was one particular scene where a character gets separated from their spouse and then finds them later on as uh an undead. Um so I wrote I wrote that I started in 2021 and I finished it in 2022. Um it took me I actually did I actually did most of it for like a a challenge, like a book challenge. You write 50,000 words in a month. So it's like it's like a little less than 1700 words a day. Um it wasn't consistent, like some days I would only write a little bit, and then you know, when you get in a hot streak, you can do like 2,000 words. Um, but it was something that I wanted to do for a while. I had outlined the story pretty well, and I didn't finish the book with the challenge, and then that was November of 21 and then 22. I finished it later on that month later on that month. Funny enough, I uh my job, we have warehouses all over the all over the country, and I actually traveled to Pittsburgh, so I was like, I was like editing and writing some of it in Pittsburgh, and that was like the first time I went to the Monroe Mall. I was like, I want some of that like energy in my head for me to finish it. Um but it yeah, it was it was something that I had a lot of fun doing, and it was my own like take on the zombie apocalypse. I I do have a sequel in mind. Oh I'm gonna try and do that maybe next year. Um but I th I think uh like a lot of a lot of people that I met early in my writing career liked that one a lot, and I and I think like I've had I've had some pretty good relationships with people who who are big zombie fans because of that book.

SPEAKER_04 38:47

I will say like it you should never judge a book by its cover. That is probably true. But also the cover is epic. And the name is also like I don't, it's um a unique name that immediately gets, as you can see from Dan's uh introduction to this episode, your mind. Like, what does that mean? Um so could you tell our listeners what a little bit about what Death Cleanse is about and like what kind of zombies are in that universe?

SPEAKER_01 39:12

Uh so Death Cleanse is about a it's about a group of soldiers uh that go out and try to find the guy who caused a zombie outbreak. Um Luther? So Yeah. So uh so Luther was basically just like this big sharp pharmaceutical guy who uh was trying to make this cure for um like other other diseases and everything like that, and overworks people and overworks people to the point where like it probably wasn't done properly going through clinical clinical trials and everything like that. And then when it starts getting starts getting used, um everything goes poorly. And you know, a guy like that is probably a billionaire, probably has a lot of resources, hops on a plane and flies off to like Richville. But the book starts with uh the plane crashing, and everyone but him and his close um associate die. So it uh crashes in Montaught, and there's there's a big bunker out there that they used to do like apparently like government experiments and stuff like that. So he um his friend is injured too, so he has to take care of his injured friend, and he's fighting out, and the he's able to make a distress call in this building, and the only person he's able to contact is the guy who is specifically trying to track him down and hunt him. It's a kind of like an old like war war general, like military guy who's a little unhinged naturally, and putting in this world, he's like uh just very unstable. So he sets uh a few of his best soldiers out to Long Island, and their base is in Brooklyn, so like Brooklyn to Long Island is well, the end of Long Island is like two-ish hours straight through. But you know, the zombie apocalypse has been going on for seven years at this point, so it's there's tens of thousands of cars that are vacant. Um, people who have become militarized, you know, militias, I think that they own that land now. Um so they they they go through a lot of um trials while they're going out there, and and I think the most important thing is which I like about the zombie apocalypse, which I wanted to translate very well, is like I think the lack of humanity, both the like the undead and also how people kind of revert back to this like primal way of like there's no like established system, so like I can create my own rules. I think that's what really makes people kind of cave and break in that mentality. Because the the main character is very like, I got this, I can control a team, and by the climax, he's like a completely different person, you know. Like I will, I will, you know, just kill anyone who's just in my way. Um, and at the same time, I have a character who was like that at the beginning of the book and learns empathy through it, through um connecting with another character. Um and I think it's I think it paces very well because I always, whenever I pitch it to people, I say it's like uh Sabre and Piperyan the zombie apocalypse. I remember you saying that actually at Living Dead Weekend. Yeah, it's very I I think something like that, like a long journey, you learn a lot about yourself because of who you're with, and you you are forced to experience how other people handle bad situations, and that definitely changes you. So yeah, I think I think the the the core of what I like about the zombie lore is um you know living with everything. Like sure the undead are you know coming to eat you and whatever, but I think humanity that lives on is definitely your hardest obstacle.

SPEAKER_03 42:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 42:59

I mean, that's how it feels right now. If we're being fair. Also, the um the the the crazed military guy, his um I called it death cleanse because like the way that the character is um he's almost he'll he almost thinks like killing zombies is like a sport. So like like trying to kill as many undead as possible to basically like cleanse the world, and then that's how you can like rebuild faster. So like if you stumble across a horde of like 50, like you have to take them all out because this is like what you're supposed to do.

SPEAKER_04 43:33

Yeah, you gotta purge the earth of them, which makes me think, especially also with what you said about the you like in a horror movie, that this is probably like a 10 out of 10 gore. Where would you put it on the like one zero gore? 10 people like me are going to possibly feel sick to their stomach.

SPEAKER_00 43:51

I feel like 10 is like projectile vomit.

SPEAKER_04 43:53

Yeah, okay. Ten is projectile vomit. Well then, yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_01 43:56

I would probably do like an eight because it's um because It's so like militarized, like I feel like they would just like are tactical in the way they do things, but I have very vivid visuals of like you know, if you've been rotting for years and years, you probably have like greenish, blackish poo coming out of yourself that just probably is unbearably smelling. And then, like, if you think about if like you shot a zombie that's oozing black sludge in like the leg and it falls over and just splatters like a like an old water balloon. That's has to be like one of the worst smells ever.

SPEAKER_04 44:31

I mean, you literally just did it for me there, an old water balloon. That's disgusting. I love books like that though, that make me turn away from the page. That's good writing. If you could make it be like, oh no, I need a minute before I get back to that.

SPEAKER_00 44:44

I also think that this goes back to something that you said right at the very beginning where you were saying how like when you write a script, you have to write for what you can what you can show uh on on the screen. And what I love about writing is that like you can do everything that you can do in a movie. You can explain, you can describe all of those things, but it you can do more because you can also describe smell, you can also describe feelings, uh, you can describe inner thoughts or uh how certain things affect somebody, uh, that you can have a difficult time trying to portray in a visual space. Um so like the things like the smell, like if you're watching The Walking Dead, you don't get what that smells like. But if you've been around corpses uh that have been out in the sun for a while, then then it comes back to you.

SPEAKER_04 45:35

Our dog Ziggy likes to roll in those in the woods. So I have some sense of how disgusting that can be. He loves it. He does. He thinks that's that's his version of a bath.

Montauk Bunker Lore And Villainy

SPEAKER_04 45:45

Um, I'm curious a little bit more about the inspiration of the is it actually pronounced Montaug? Is that what you said? Montauk border uh bunker? Yeah, I hadn't heard of that, and so we actually looked it up when we were reading about the book, and it looks creepy. Like, where did that where did that inspiration come from? Have you have you been in there? What do you think about that?

SPEAKER_01 46:03

Uh I've I've definitely been like I've been to Montauk before a few times, and it's like a beautiful beach town, but apparently um the the place in Montaught, supposedly they used to do some like government experimental stuff. Um like I don't know, I don't know like the the depths of it all, but like time travel and um mind control time travel yeah psychedelic um how that like how psychedelics um mess with your brain and stuff like that. Um there was a there was a book called the Mon, I think it's called the Montauk Project, but uh that actually inspired uh Stranger Things. Oh um so that there's I mean and now it's just like an empty building, um and there's small buildings around it. But I I remember when COVID was happening, we went out to Montauk. I mean, my my in-laws are very big beach people, but like Montauk itself is uh beautiful little town, and obviously it's the end of Long Island, so like there's tons of beaches, but there that all that whole area is still there and fenced off. But like if you're brave enough, there's a hole in the the fence. And I was like walking around and Deaf Glens is already kind of like in my mind, so I mapped it out. So when you when you read uh when they get to Montauk, it's actually pretty accurate about how I explained like the big building. And there's like I'd imagine there were like houses or living quarters for people who worked in this building, but um, yeah, it's just it's just so you wouldn't think that would be in Montauk is like it's basically just like a version of the Hamptons with this weird, questionable government building that had an unusual past.

SPEAKER_00 47:46

Yeah, I remember seeing um some pictures of some of the uh the the the bunkers that people have explored. And uh I remember seeing it where they didn't really say where it was. They're like, this is somewhere in in New York State. Um and they looked super creepy, just like concrete holes in the side of a hill that just go down uh into this very dark uh concrete bunker underground with you know the all that's left is like a few metal bed frames and stuff, but it's it's beyond creepy to look at.

SPEAKER_04 48:20

Is Luther who gets trapped in this a um like is he morally gray? How would you describe? Is he the one who goes and becomes more wild as time goes on, or is he does he have some redundant redeeming qualities?

SPEAKER_01 48:35

Uh so funny enough, um I actually had a an old manager named Luther. I actually switched two letters in his last name. Uh he's never gonna read the book, so I don't care. Um but he was like, he was genuinely like a terrible human being. So I was like, I want to create one of my villains after him. Um no, he was I I guess you could say he was like a bad human being before like the events of the book started, and then you put in a situation where like you have to be like responsible and um sort of care for humanity when you're forced to in the worst possible way. Um but there was no like no, there's not really any redemption for him. Like they're um when when he's finally like found, uh they don't treat him like a human being. Like they spit on his face, they like they basically like I've there there was a scene where they talk about like just keeping him a cell for the rest of his life. Like I think that's like the ultimate form of torture because like once you start causing bodily harm, you really risk like actually dying. But like, you know, you're gonna just be here forever. Like you don't get to enjoy anything. Like we will feed you, but that's it.

SPEAKER_04 49:48

That is one of the worst things you can do to somebody without question. Yeah. Um, and that's what I was trying to think like, am I happy this person was trapped in the bunker? Because it looks scary. I wouldn't want to be in there. And what what inspired you to start thinking about a sequel? Like, has that always been there for you? And you're just now considering picking it back up, or like, what is it about this story that you're like, I've got to continue it?

SPEAKER_01 50:09

Um, I think that there is um there was a character arc that I wanted to explore. Um, and also like um when I meet, I'll be enough, like when I um meet people I don't like, I'm like, man, I really want to kill them in the book. Um that really just deserves it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 50:32

Um that is the magic of writing, is like things that are not acceptable to say out loud in society. You can say it in a book, and people are like, loved it. Love that you said that in the book.

SPEAKER_01 50:45

But yeah, I think I think a lot of people um, like I said, like responded well to like my take on the on the zombies. And I my idea for the the sequel would be more of um exploring like the the mall avenue because I'm obsessed. Um, but also like I've done Living Dead weekend so much that I'm like, you know, I'm in a mall, why don't I just like do this? Um and also kind of exploring more where I live because I wrote I wrote that with uh Long Island and I lived in Queens at the time, so like that area was very familiar with, and now I live I live in Hudson Valley. So like I can write about more my area, and like if they're in Brooklyn, they're naturally probably going to be exploring a little bit more as they um kind of re-establish civilization. And um, assuming they're from New York too, they would kind of navigate like, oh, I remember this place I used to go to when I was younger before the world fell apart. That would be, you know, would be cool to see what it's like there.

SPEAKER_04 51:46

I like that. I think I'd want to go back and see how fucked up my little hometown was. And also when I lived in Augusta, Georgia for a long time, I used to have like this pre-stranger things, like weird times. I'd be driving down this like commercial avenue road. It's called Washington, Washington road, I'm remembering correctly, Dan. Oh, yeah. And it's like it's just all of the big box stores and the big box restaurants and like the really tall signs that they I don't know. That's like an American thing that was new for me. It's like having a McDonald's sign that's like four stories tall for some reason. It's better for worshiping. Yeah. And I would just like have these moments where I would just imagine it as an apocalypse all the time. So I think if um if this did happen, I'd probably be heading back down to Georgia to be like, just how bad is it? I want to see if it looks like what I pictured. So I love that uh idea. And

Zombie Trends And Walking Dead Takes

SPEAKER_04 52:34

also I'm curious like your thoughts around the future of the genre with zombies and horror in general, and like specifically if there's anything around zombies that you want to try that's a little bit different with this new book.

SPEAKER_01 52:45

Um, well, first things first, how cool would it be if you were like a sharpshooter and could climb one of those and just like shoot for sport from from a from a McDonald's side?

SPEAKER_04 52:58

Please write that in somewhere. I will enjoy that. I could never do it.

SPEAKER_01 53:02

Um I I mean, I think a lot of people would probably agree that the walking dead was such a big cultural phenomenon that I think people are like a little oversaturated with zombies, but at the same time, like we have movies like Train to Busan that kind of like reshape things. And um, we have things that are like pseudo zombie, but they're not like directly um like flesh-eating zombies. Like, did you guys ever see Cooties with Elijah Wood?

SPEAKER_04 53:33

No, no, clearly that to our list.

SPEAKER_01 53:36

That was that was wild. It's like uh it's like a a bacteria that got into like school chicken nuggets. So like pre-pubescent all the pre-pubescent kids turn into zombies. Like there's a scene where like they're doing they're doing hopscotch with like intestines. It's really, it's really fun. And it's R-rated, so it's like it's it's it's good.

SPEAKER_04 53:59

I like that because usually when I've seen things around like age being a factor in who becomes a zombie, it's always the adults who become the zombie. So that's a fun twist.

SPEAKER_03 54:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 54:10

Um, I I agree. Like, I think that there were an impasse. Obviously, we are zombie book club podcasts, so we love all things zombie Dan, especially.

SPEAKER_03 54:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 54:17

And I am curious, like, for your take on I love people's hot takes on the 28 years later franchise versus 28 Days. Have you watched it? What's your take on it?

SPEAKER_01 54:26

Um, I I watched it. The only the only like major complaint I had about it was like it felt like two movies in one. Like the stuff with um I'm drawing a blank with the elite actor who was the father.

SPEAKER_04 54:39

Frank, or not Ray Fine, or the oh, the father.

SPEAKER_00 54:43

James.

SPEAKER_04 54:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 54:44

Yeah. So like that whole thing, and then when and then when the son found out about uh Ray Fine's character, um, it just felt like two different movies, and then like the pacing was a little off. Um the whole like uh alpha zombie thing was I think a little blown out of proportion, but I I don't think that people can which parts are blown out of proportion. Um I don't think that most people can handle like uh blatant nudity on screen, like giggling. Because that was a thing in Nosferat, too. Like he stood up and was naked, and it was just like a discussion. It was like not even half a second. Um but yeah, I mean, yeah. I mean, if I was running from a guy who was like a linebacker and completely naked, I'd probably, you know, have some questions. But at the same time, I'm also just gonna just gonna run away. Yeah, you're not gonna slow down to ask. Yeah, the the the other breeding thing was like interesting. Um, I want to watch it. I haven't seen the new one yet, uh, but I hear it's significantly better.

SPEAKER_04 55:49

I'm not gonna ruin it for you, but I I will be curious how you feel about the big swing and dick zombies, as we like to call them here.

SPEAKER_00 55:57

Uh the BSZs.

SPEAKER_04 55:59

Yeah, the BSDZs. Yeah, there's a D in there. They evolve in an interesting way. That's all I'm gonna say. I do like that that movie better.

SPEAKER_01 56:08

But I think overall, overall, those movies are very important because I think I think there's what the zombie genre needs is like subgenres and like things that kind of bend uh the norm because on its surface, it can get boring if we have too much of it. Yeah, so like we can do things like A Girl with All the Gifts or Train to Busan, like I think the foreign movies like really nail it on the head. Like, um, and and movies like Cooties are a little bit different too. I think people will like get back into it. I just I I think like The Walking Dead had also having you know four spin-offs doesn't really help.

SPEAKER_04 56:43

Yeah, and the spin-offs being generally I mean, we all know it went downhill towards the end, anyways, but subpar, I will not I will not bore you with my rant about how I feel about Daryl, the move, the show.

SPEAKER_01 56:54

Oh, please, please.

SPEAKER_04 56:55

Briefly, it's terrible, and I feel like very upset with Norman Redis for portraying that character with the worst possible rendition of him. That's all. I could go further, but that's basically it. Do you like it? Uh-oh.

SPEAKER_01 57:07

Like, what what do you mean, The Walking Dead?

SPEAKER_04 57:10

No, Daryl. The have you seen the spinoff, Daryl?

SPEAKER_01 57:12

Uh, I haven't. Good for me. Um, I mean, I also have a hot take with Daryl. Like, I'm not in love with Daryl as as a whole. And like, you know, when when um I definitely sighed on the on the on the side that he got Glenn killed.

SPEAKER_03 57:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 57:26

I mean that's part of Negan in front of like 50 soldiers that are standing behind him. This guy's a spiked bat. What did you think was gonna happen? Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 57:34

Yeah. Who by the way, Negan, is he really such a bad guy? I don't know. They kind of put him in a corner. I mean, I'm not saying he was a good guy, but I and I liked Glenn. Okay, don't anybody please cancel me for saying that. You're canceled for liking Negan. I don't like Negan. I just think like if somebody came into your house and randomly killed all your people, I don't know. The response seemed probably pretty reasonable to me.

SPEAKER_00 57:58

Yeah. I mean, that that sounds like a bunch of dangerous people, and I probably wouldn't have taken that risk.

SPEAKER_04 58:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 58:04

I would have just wiped them out.

SPEAKER_04 58:05

Yeah. Well, then don't waste your time with Daryl because if you didn't like the original Daryl, you won't like the like um RC Cola version of Daryl you get from Daryl. It's terrible.

SPEAKER_01 58:14

I was I was also like very, very uh confused as to why he was in Ireland.

SPEAKER_00 58:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 58:21

That just seemed like a very big stretch. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 58:24

Yep. It is when you watch it. There's a lot of questions. Yeah. Not a lot of answers. Um just things happen. Somebody decided they really wanted him to be in France and Ireland and get to season two and you start following Carol, and you have even more questions.

Dream Screen Adaptations

SPEAKER_04 58:41

This is why we need more indie voices, um, both in books and on screen, which leads me to the next question, which is like, would you, you know, you have this background in filmmaking. Is there anything you've written that could be Death Cleanse or otherwise that you would love to actually see on screen?

SPEAKER_01 58:55

I I think I think um Death Cleanse would be a lot of fun, but it it requires a big budget.

SPEAKER_04 59:02

Okay, forget budget. You can pick any of your books right now. Major feature film, which one is it?

SPEAKER_01 59:08

Um that would probably be like second or third on my list, but uh I think Hyde Cove would be my my favorite because it's like small town horror. Um I pitch that as like Halloween Meets of Strangers because it's three killers, but it's like it all happens in one night. Um kind of like um like Rob Zombies like Backwoods kind of family. Um, you know, very um always in trouble with the law, kind of like kick like, not very talked about well. You know, those people like if you give those people knives and you know start killing everyone in town in one night, I don't want to do with them. They got no kill dudes, no one likes them anyway.

SPEAKER_00 59:48

Yeah, I've I've met those people.

SPEAKER_04 59:50

Some of our neighbors. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 59:51

There's this uh this place where I use uh where I was working, I was using a a stream to fill up a tank on the back of a truck, and I was down there messing around with the with a water pump. And uh I thought I was alone, but this guy came out from underneath the bridge and started talking to me about how he painted his chickens. He's like, Yep, I'm I live down the stream there, just got my chickens painted. Apparently, you can paint chickens. Um, like a parking code for something like I just want them all. Like he took them to a guy in Rhode Island, he's like, Here's my chicken, and the guy got out his paints and started painting the chicken, and he's like, Here's your chicken with paint on it.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:31

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:32

I don't know why. I think it waterproofed them more. I don't know. But uh have you ever seen them again? I have. I've seen him around. I know where he lives. I've his his yard be started off as a pretty insane-looking junkyard, and it's only gotten more insane over time. He has goats now.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:51

Um Yeah, there's a there there's an interesting phenomenon in Vermont, which is there's like some people that just I won't call them hoarders, I'll call them collectors. And their yards are really intense, Joseph. Like it looks like a junkyard, but sometimes very intentional, but like sometimes you can't see the house anymore. And there's a lot going on. So I think this is one of those guys.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:14

Well, yeah. I I called that guy um the hills have eyes. So people at work, I'm like, I saw the the hills have eyes, and they're like, I know who you're talking about.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:24

You should come up here for some inspo, some weird Vermont inspo. We can introduce you to a local horror author here that you'd really like, Asher, uh Azure Ellis. Um, but I would love to hear sort of your writing journey because we love indie authors at the My Book Club Podcast.

Indie Publishing Lessons And Motivation

SPEAKER_04 1:01:40

And I'm curious, what was the hardest part about going from like writing to publishing?

SPEAKER_01 1:01:45

Uh I think just lack of knowledge early on. Um, like I had read a lot of indie authors in 2019 to like 2021 before I published. Uh, but it's it's really just figuring out like how to do certain things. Um, because like my a lot of the things I did early on, I don't really do anymore. Like I have other resources or um just out of like personal preference too, but like, or I've gotten a better editor. Um, someone tells you they can edit, and then you're like, it's fine, but like it could probably be better. Um yeah, just like the lack of experience and then also where to start. Like, you I mean, you can I think starting the right is is easy, but then like when you're done, you're like, all right, like what do I do with this? Um but luckily I have been fortunate to like meet a lot of people and ask a lot of questions, and everyone's been nice. So I will always do that and repay the um or pay it forward. Um, because I know like, especially when younger people start, uh, they don't really know. And I always I always like to be helpful with that because there's an op. I mean, there's resources, but like if you don't really know what you're looking for, then you're not gonna find it.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:05

Yeah, it's really true. And I think we've experienced that too with folks in the community. It's amazing how generous people are with their knowledge.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:12

There's also a lot of mixed advice too. And and some of it is good and some of it is bad, and then some of it is just kind of lukewarm and mediocre. I'd put like most of the advice in that category, which is like uh it it kind of works, it kind of doesn't. Um probably a better way to do it.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:30

But like we're all figuring it out on our own, so we gotta uh find the path.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:34

Yeah, and and I think you need to have like at least one bad experience because then you can it really it really questions like I really want to do this, but like is this bad situation going to deter me going forward? Um so I I mean I I think uh there's there's always ways to improve. And you also just have to kind of figure out figure out um better ways, easier ways, and cleaner ways for your next project.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:03

Yeah. What keeps you going when when things are hard?

SPEAKER_01 1:04:07

Uh it it keeps, I mean, it keeps me active in a sense, like because my day job is very like not passionate about, like my commute, I'm not passionate about. Um and I'm like, I don't think I'm like uh like uh a genius when it comes to writing, but I think I'm good enough at it where like I know that when I write something, people are gonna pick it up and read it. And it may not be their favorite. My next project might not be their favorite, but like I do have a core audience. And um when I like when I finish something and print it, when I hold that print feeling, it's like that's like the high. I get I I feel that rush. Um, and that never really goes away. So and I and I also think that like the stories I have are very unique. Like I like to have a a method kind of like um, for example, like how like Steven Spielberg has very diverse movies. I like that, where like if you pick something up from if you look at my table or you look in my back catalog, everything's very different and the covers are very different. Versus like if I wrote like maybe, I don't know, no offense if anyone's a fan, but like Rob Zombie, like you're pretty much getting like white trash, backwoods. Yeah. Um that like that's his brand. I don't want, I don't want like a one one thing brand because people get bored quickly.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:28

Yeah, I was gonna ask you, like, what is Joseph Pesavanto's world of horror? Because that you I have like an awesome sticker from you um with that logo, but that is that what you're speaking to when you say, like, I have it's the world of horror. There's a whole bunch of different things that can happen. It's not gonna be predictable. You can't expect one book to be the same from another.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:45

Yeah, I think just really finding every every single avenue possible of um scaring people or grossing people out, and finding just finding um inspiration and very kind, like I think. I want to write a little bit more like very common things versus like very fantastical things. Um I I just want to be as diverse as possible. Um especially in in a world of trends, in a world of um everything's just so ADHD. Uh just there there just needs to be more and more because, you know, like tomorrow because I mean like we're we're kind of on a renaissance of horror anyway.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:25

So like, you know, tomorrow if horror is just as popular as like fantasy is right now or romance is right now, then like I have I, you know, my audience will grow vastly, like the market's there.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:38

Yeah, there's a lot of access points for them. You know, for us at zombies. That doesn't mean that we don't like shocking people. We also do things that are not zombies when we're not on this podcast.

Parenting, Names, And Horror Limits

SPEAKER_04 1:06:48

Like Sinners, um, which you named your most recent or your your baby after. Tell me, tell us more about that.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:55

Um, so we when you're at least for us, when you're picking a baby name, there's so much pressure because you know, you first of all, you both have to agree, second off, like um, you know, you can't really like change it up every every so often. Um so like we were thinking a lot about names and she had she had uh said the name Remy, but I thought it was sounding to it sound like a nickname, really. I like like a lot of people call me, well most people call me Joe. Obviously, my full name is Joseph. Um so like I wanted I like the idea of a full name because for professional reasons or you know, um you don't really like a nickname someone gives you, you can kind of revert back to that. Um and then we saw we saw sinners and we're like, yeah, I think that's the name. And also uh the actor who played him, Jack O'Connell, is one of our favorite actors. So we just thought it had like a deeper layer of um meaning to it. And also we I mean, I'm the technically the third, and I want to get away from Joseph as well. I'm very big on like uh identity and like self-identity, so I didn't really want to just have another Joseph.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:11

Yeah, Remek is a really awesome name, like even if I'd never seen Sinners, like that's as somebody who's just hired someone, seeing Remek on a shouldn't affect my decisions, but I would be like, that's a cool name. Um, but also like Sinners is such probably my favorite movie of 2025, which I know is uh being me traitorous to the zombie movies that came out in 2025, but saying it, Sinners is my favorite. And um, I'm curious at what age will you show Remek Sinners and be like, this is who you're named after?

SPEAKER_01 1:08:41

Uh I don't I don't know, like because we have we both started horror movies very early, but I think like when it comes to sexual content in movies, it gets a little complicated because there's like there's multiple acts that are coming from that movie, so it's it's a little hard to like explain that. Um I mean for me like I watched all that stuff when I was like 12, 13, and I'm I I think I'm okay, but um, you know, I have to have my wife's take on that too. So I can't fully speak for it, but I think like teenage you would be fine.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:17

Yeah, I think it's a really fun origin story for a name. Um not every day somebody gets to say that I was named after a vampire from a 2025 movie called Sinners.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:28

Like, Dad, is this why you keep on buying me banjos every year?

unknown 1:09:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:33

Well, my wife's my wife's very big on vampires. She she recently got back into Anne Rice series. Um, she was very big on the new the new TV series. Um the one and only time I was able to get her up go to Comic-Con with me was last year when they had a Anne Rice Universe panel. So um, and her her name's Nadia, and backwards would be Aiden, so that's his middle name. But I I referenced the um there's a band called Aiden, but the band named their name after the boy from the ring. So he basically just has like a very horror-themed name.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:12

I wonder like if uh he will follow in your footsteps sort of naturally, because I think sometimes what your name does have some kind of power, uh, not to get too weird and woo-woo, but it'll be interesting. Or maybe Remick will just really love, I don't know, comedy, like sitcoms.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:30

I mean, I I'm happy either way. I mean, as long as he turns out to be contributing to society, that's what's most important. I mean, he could be like a devout Catholic who only watches like lifetime movies or whatever. But, you know, as long as he's not, I'd rather that than him doing like crystal meth.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:49

Yeah, and that's like deep secret is like he doesn't tell all of his Catholic friends that he's named after.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:55

Yeah. Also, like um, I think I think a lot of um I don't know what generation you guys would be in. I solidly elder millennials. Okay. So I think there's a lot of um trauma from older generations where it's Gen X or Boomers, where like they rely or they emphasize so much pressure on their kids to um impress people, not so much like do well, but like impress, you know, your neighbors, your other relatives, and so much. Uh, you know, we kind of come from that background too. So we want to avoid that, you know. As long as you're trying, that's that's all that matters. So there's no real there's no real uh pressure on that. I mean, it's it would be great. Like he's definitely gonna come to horror convention with me, but you know, one of these like, I don't really like this, and all right, that's fine.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:46

I mean, what a great choice of um a Halloween costume, though, when he's old enough. This is just too good.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:54

I mean, he could do it this year. He's not gonna know what it is.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:56

That's actually might be the right time, right? Because it sounds like him being able to decide who he is and what he cares about is really important to you. So now's the time, and then maybe he'll choose it later.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:05

I mean, it's it's really simple now because it's black pants, blue shirt, suspenders, and just red blood. You gotta have the banjo. Or does he not?

SPEAKER_04 1:12:14

Does he have the banjo? Is he the one?

SPEAKER_01 1:12:16

He has a banjo, I think. Yeah, well, he had it, he had it until he bit uh Mary. Spoilers if anyone hasn't seen it.

SPEAKER_04 1:12:23

Yeah, I mean, go see it. That's you gotta again, traitorous to all zombie films in 2025. But if you have to see a movie, Sinners is it for me. Uh, I'm curious before we wrap up, if there's anything about being a parent that has changed what is horrifying to you or how you think about writing horror.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:39

I mean, I'm definitely more aware of like child violence. Like, I think uh I would definitely deter from watching stuff like that. Um like I think about did you guys see the latest Terrifier, Terrifier 3?

SPEAKER_00 1:12:52

Uh, there's I haven't seen the older ones.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:55

Totally unbelievable. Very early in the movie that he like goes upstairs and like one of the kids thinks his sister came in, and then all you just hear is like an axe swinging. And I'm like, oh, okay. It's not shown on screen, but like the idea of it. Yeah. Um, and then I'm a little bit more sensitive to just like a baby crying and screen. Um, but I think that's I think that's that's just that's just like a nurturing like survival thing kicking in that I need to protect my son. Um, but I don't really watch like decapitating infants or anything like that anyway. Like that's very uh that's very specific and not really for me.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:34

Gotta agree with you there. I'm not really into watching kids, babies, or animals, hence why um I would classify Never Ending Store as a story as a horror movie because of the horse. It is a horror movie. RTAX. Yeah. Still elevated in my brain forever. So and from the ring, the horse there. Anyways, won't bring my own trauma to this place. This is a person who loves working.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:57

Dark Crystal's also a horror movie.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:58

Yeah, for sure. And Labyrinth. I think that's horror. I don't know if you would agree, Joseph.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:04

And Gremlins messed me up.

SPEAKER_04 1:14:08

Um, well, I really appreciate you coming on the show. It was fun to

Links, Living Dead Weekend, And Patreon

SPEAKER_04 1:14:11

talk with you. Unfortunately, we're heading right towards the end of our time. And I would just love for you to share with people where they can find you. They can buy their books direct from you. And folks, shipping is included. So you don't have to think about that when you're looking. I really appreciated that, by the way, on your website.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:26

Yeah, absolutely. Um, so you can find me mostly. Um, you can just go by my name on Facebook, Joseph Pesaveno, and then TikTok and Instagram where I'm probably most active would be Joseph Pesaveno Rights, all one word. Um I'm not on Twitter slash X because I am not um mentally unwell or like a psychopath.

unknown 1:14:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:52

Um I don't I also don't believe that people should just have to share their opinions about everything all the time. You know, like be modest, be humble. No one no one cares what you think about this X, Y, and Z all day, every day. It's just it's a little uh narcissistic. Yeah. Um and that goes for all the platforms that are like that. Blue Sky, and there's another one. I think there's truth, whatever. Uh threads. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:18

Truth Oh, Truth Social, I think is what you're talking about.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:21

Yeah. Um I think that you need to put out content, not just your opinion. Um and then my website is my just my name, josephes.com. Uh, you can find out events I'm doing. Um, and then I have everything on my website for sale. Um, like you said, I do just include shipping in the price, it's just like four bucks more. Um, yeah, just much easier that way. Um, but yeah, I mean, I've had a lot of fun talking to you guys. This is great.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:50

Yeah, I I enjoyed this conversation. Uh a lot of a lot of things that uh, you know, whenever whenever you have a conversation with with horror writers, I find there's there's something that gets unlocked or along the way. And uh I I feel like we hit like several of them. And now I want to go to Montauk just to Yeah, really.

SPEAKER_04 1:16:15

Like just that that's where your mind goes, right? I love that. That is the best thing about authors. This is America, so okay. I don't mean in real life people. Please don't do that. I'm I feel like do we have to say that?

SPEAKER_00 1:16:28

We do.

SPEAKER_04 1:16:28

Okay. Write about it. Specifically, actually, if you write about it, you've got to give Joseph credit now. So really it's for your yours for the taking. It's your idea.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:38

I mean, people can take it, but I I'll maybe I'll write into something. But I do want to say when whenever we when we meet in June, I do want to talk about Nickelodeon more because uh there are some wild fan theorieslash conspiracy theories about like some of the shows, and I think that they'll like blow your mind or and or ruin the shows for you.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:58

I hope it ruins them. I love it when my childhood is ruined.

SPEAKER_04 1:17:02

That sounds like really fun content, actually, in general. Like I would definitely be reading. It'd be weird for me though, because I don't know half these shows. I do know Doug, though. I don't know how that happened. Yeah, how did that happen? I don't know. I had three channels as a kid, but I did watch, probably at my friend's house. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:16

Well, I can I can ruin rugrats for you.

SPEAKER_04 1:17:18

Okay, I do know rugrats.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:20

Okay, so there was a theory that Angelica um dreamt up or thought of all the kids that they didn't really exist. Um so so I believe Chucky's mother wasn't in the show. She died. So Chucky actually died with the mother. That's why his father was always like very neurotic. Um, Tommy died in childbirth. That's why Stu was always in the basement making toys to cope. Um, and then Phil and Lil's mother had an abortion, so she and Angelica didn't know if it was a boy or a girl, so she conceptualized both.

SPEAKER_04 1:17:59

Never looking at that the same. Thank you. Appreciate you. Anytime. Yeah. Well, I will let you get back to your your person and your babies. Babies, plural? Sorry.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:12

One. Well, we have we have pets, so I guess we'll those count. For babies.

SPEAKER_04 1:18:16

Yeah, for babies and remick. Tell them all we say hi and thanks for letting us have some of your time on a Sunday. And we'll see you in June.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:23

Yes. Thank you guys so much. This has been a blast, and I can't wait to chat with you even longer.

SPEAKER_04 1:18:28

Yay, we'll do it. Okay, see you there. Well, that was fun. Now we gotta watch Cooties from Elijah Wood.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:33

Yeah, I didn't even know that was a movie. Yeah, gotta read Death Cleanse. Yeah, gotta read that. And honestly, it sounds very fascinating.

SPEAKER_04 1:18:40

It sounds like your kind of book is special. It does.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:42

Because I I, you know, there's a lot of different types of stories that people tell. I I would classify this, I guess, as like the road trip zombie movie. Yeah. Where they're going on an adventure, and I love an adventure. Get out there, get out in the world. Let's see those zombies.

SPEAKER_04 1:18:56

And that's so great, dude. It's stuck in a very creepy bunker where strange psychedelic and paranormal experiments were had. Yeah. I think that's a good thing. People who probably didn't give consent based on when it was built.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:06

Probably not.

SPEAKER_04 1:19:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:08

It's probably horrifying.

SPEAKER_04 1:19:10

Yep. Um, but that was a lot of fun. You can find all of Joseph Pesavanto's uh information in the show notes, of course. Go check him out. Or just come visit us at Living Dead Weekend. We would love to see you there. It's June 12th to the 14th. We're gonna be there, Joseph's gonna be there, Alice B. Sullivan's gonna be there, Brennan Staraki's gonna be there, other cool people we don't know yet are gonna be there.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:31

Anyway, you know who else is gonna be there?

SPEAKER_04 1:19:32

Tom Savini. Probably Greg Greg Nicotero. Probably. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:36

I think it's a safe bet.

SPEAKER_04 1:19:38

Yeah. And you can go on a tour of them all before it is possibly torn down because Walmart sucks.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:43

Yeah. I love how when we did our episode on it, it was like, it's the last one ever. And now we're gonna do another one. One more. One more. One more for the road. This will probably be the last. Yep.

SPEAKER_04 1:19:54

Well, thanks everybody for joining Zombie Book Club.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:57

Yeah. Uh all the links are down there in the description. And uh the the end. I you know, it's it's it's nigh.

SPEAKER_04 1:20:06

It is, which is why you should come say hello to us on our Patreon Survivor Camp. Yeah. Which is free. It's our little community. Patreon. Yeah, come survive with us. Yeah, come on. On the Patreon, FreeTreon.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:17

Yeah. Come over there and tell us words.

SPEAKER_04 1:20:20

Yeah. Don't become a zombie before you get there, though, because that's not cool.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:24

Yeah. If you become a zombie, like just like do the right thing. Don't like hide it and then come into the Patreon.

SPEAKER_04 1:20:35

Because we all know how it ends. Yeah, don't pretend we're gonna strip you down, okay? This is just like we don't like to do that. It's necessary in the era of zombies.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:44

Yeah, we we have to do it.

SPEAKER_04 1:20:46

Yeah. Yeah. We'll do it in as dignified way as possible. So please don't hide your hide your wounds.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:50

It's policy.

SPEAKER_04 1:20:51

Yeah. Yeah. And if for some reason you're that rare person who's immune and you have like an old wound, I'll believe you. Okay. I I trust. If it's already healed, it's already healed. I know you're not a zombie. Yeah. Just it's fine.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:02

Let it heal for that.

SPEAKER_04 1:21:03

And if you're not sure if it which way it's gonna go yet, just wait a couple days, you know? Or we can be like, we can maybe we can make a little welcome mat area for the folks who are like they haven't turned and they should have turned by now. I we could create a little section for you. It would feel kind of like a prison.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:18

It will be a prison.

SPEAKER_04 1:21:19

But we'll make it really nice. We'll put a DVD player, we'll put the solar powered DVD player in there for you. Yeah, we'll get you some pork rinds from Joseph. If you don't eat those, we'll get you chickpeas.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:29

The chickpeas. I gotta try those now. Flavored.

SPEAKER_04 1:21:32

I can't believe you never had them.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:33

I don't I don't think I have. Wild. Yeah, let's get some.

SPEAKER_04 1:21:36

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:37

Yeah. I don't like them.

SPEAKER_04 1:21:41

I do like a pan-fried chickpea. Oh, okay. I still want to try them. They're l they're really dry. Yeah, I imagine. But if it was the apocalypse, I would just like drink a lot of water with them. Yeah. Or out of sauce. That'd be weird, actually. Never mind. It would be like cereal. Imagine cereal. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:56

But a chickpea. So we have a bowl of chickpeas and we pour milk into it. That's disgusting.

SPEAKER_04 1:22:02

Making you feel really gross.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:04

The end is nigh. Bye-bye, everybody. Bye-bye. Don't die.