Cognitive Fitness Coach
Cognitive Fitness Coach is a thought-provoking podcast hosted by Chris Norris, a veteran, meditation teacher, and social worker. The host shares his unique perspective on optimizing human performance through meditation, breath, mindfulness, nature, exercise, and wellness practices. Each episode delves into a different aspect of these practices and how they can help listeners improve their mental, physical, and emotional well-being. Whether you're a seasoned meditator or just starting to explore the world of mindfulness, this podcast is designed to help you achieve greater clarity, focus, and well-being. With expert and personal interviews, personal anecdotes, and practical tips, the host and guest provide an inspiring and informative look at the importance of cognitive fitness for a better, happier life.
Cognitive Fitness Coach
Collaborative Commons: Building Capacity with Scott Winter
In this episode, Coach Chris sits down with Scott Winter—facilitator, consultant, and founder of Brain-Friendly Dynamics and Collaborative Commons—to explore what it means to build resilience in both people and communities. From guiding organizations through strategic transformation to supporting the rebuilding of Paradise, California, after the Camp Fire, Scott’s work is about helping groups thrive in complexity.
We dive into the principles of brain-friendly facilitation, the power of group flow, and what it takes to shift from fear-based to creative-based action. Scott shares insights on emotional resilience, the weight of unspoken baggage, and why true leadership often begins with the simple phrase: “You go first.”
Along the way, we connect these lessons to practices like meditation, breathwork, cold exposure, and ultradistance challenges—tools that train the individual mind while also shaping how we show up in teams, organizations, and communities.
This conversation is about capacity, courage, and the ripples of kind actions.
Learn more about Scott’s work at: LINKEDIN
We would LOVE to hear from you!! Send a Text Here!!!
Asking for reviews and ratings
We really appreciate your support of this small, but mighty podcast, and we would really appreciate a review, and a rating to help us spread the message of mental fitness.
Please consider visiting us at www.cognitivefitnesscoach.com for free resources, and a place to book a free consultation with myself; no strings attached, no cringy sales pitch.
Welcome back to the Cognitive Fitness Coach Podcast. Today's guest is Scott Winter, a facilitator, consultant, and resilience builder based in Chico, California. Scott's work spans from leading organizations through strategy and innovation to helping communities rebuild after crisis, like his role in the recovery of Paradise California after the devastating campfire. Scott is the founder of Brain Friendly Dynamics and newly formed Collaborative Commons, where he focuses on capacity building, helping individuals, teams, and communities thrive in complexity. His approach draws on research-based philosophies and a simple, but powerful truth to feel is to understand. In this conversation, we explore how group flow emerges when people set aside fear and create from a place of trust, how social creatures like us carry both emotional baggage and the energy to heal, and why choosing courage often starts with the phrase you go first. We'll also talk about resilience, personal, organizational, and communal, the impacts and ripples of kind actions, and the practices that unlock peak human performance. Meditation, breath work, cold exposure, and even ultra-distance endeavors. This one bridges the personal and the collective, how the way we train our minds and bodies connects directly to how we show up in community. So if you're a leader, coach, or everyday human who wants to unlock flow, build resilience, and perhaps turn fear into creativity, then this episode is for you. Let's get into it.
SPEAKER_01:After talking to you a few weeks back, I I was I was running pretty high, and um I was happy that you invited me to come back. So I'm looking forward to this conversation. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, me too, man. Likewise. Um, yeah, I got off the the conversation we had a few weeks back and I was like energized. I was like, man, I need to reach back out to this guy, and we need to A, have him on the podcast, and then B, look for ways in the future that we can collaborate even more. So yeah, I'm really uh stoked that you're here. So for folks who are just uh tuning in and they want to know more about Scott, like how would you describe what you do? Like if I met you, I don't want to stay on an elevator, so I don't want an elevator pitch. Like, if I met you out on a hiking trail and we hiked for a few miles, what would you tell me? What would your answer be? Like, what do you do?
SPEAKER_01:So that's what I've been working to figure out. It's I think where I've landed now is really an amalgamation of all of the work that I've done. I'm putting it into this one thing. And it's really all about capacity building. And when I frame it in that way, I kind of was hit in the face a few years ago with this idea of stress is when demand exceeds capacity, right? And you know, there's there's kind of these four contexts in which I explore that capacity building element. One is individual capacity building through the resiliency work that I do with clients and even with myself, you know, because I got to be able to handle stuff. Then there's team capacity building, uh, because organizations and getting teams to work together, um, making help become more compatible, uh, helps build their capacity, um, organizational capacity work around just systems and process improvement. Um, and then community capacity in our disaster in the disaster preparedness work we do for communities around uh California and the rest of the country. So um, it's really the focus is on building capacity um and using research-based methodologies and experiences um to help people um find their way in in their own skin so that they could show up better on teams and those teams can be better service to their communities, their organizations. And so it's kind of uh I don't know, it's kind of basic in my mind. Uh, but people always get like, that sounds like you're doing too much. It's like it's my mission. So never want a business card. It's terrible at branding, you know. People like you need to sharpen your message. It's like, fuck it. I I just gotta, I just this is what I'm gonna do. You know, I'm just doing this.
SPEAKER_00:I love it, man. And and so what you're doing is uh your company is called uh Collaborative Commons, correct?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it used to be called brain funding dynamics, right? Yep. Um, and I started brain funding dynamics because the acronym or the the the you know the this it's BFD, you know, like understanding how your brain works is a big freaking deal. Uh and then over the years, um, I really kind of uh was just applying a lot of uh the you know neuroscience and performance science in working with individuals, working with teams, working with organs. I mean, I want people to understand that it's not about psychology as much as it is biology. Um you know, our our biology scales, but our personalities don't. And so getting people to understand how they work and how um and how I can help you work better. So again, if you feel good in your skin when you're working with me and I'm it's good in my skin when I'm working with you, then we just kind of just compound our potential. So um just getting people to understand what's kind of behind the curtain so they can uh better uh adjust their strategies to show up when they need to show up in in in the appropriate way, the appropriate time, uh, to make the most make the most difference, I guess. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. And and I think a way that people can show up as their best selves and their authentic selves is that um organizations need to have be able to put out a sense of that they have safety there, that they have psychological safety, as you would say, and certainty and perhaps trust and connection and autonomy as you talked about, like a sense of control. Um right off the bat, like would you have like if I was the if I was the leader of an organization and I'm tuning into this podcast right now, like what is one thing that I might be able to do within my organization to start to breed that environment where people feel safe and feel some certainty and some trust?
SPEAKER_01:Well, I I think you know, pardon me, I'm a huge champion of collaboration, right? That's what I call the collaborative comments. And there's, you know, one of the mantras that I grew up with was, you know, people support what they create, right? And so a lot of people are working in environments that they weren't a part of creating, right? They're they were kind of they've walked into a process or a system or a culture. Uh, they want to see change, they they can see opportunities for change, and then people say, no, no, that's not what we do here. Um, and so in in the process work we do organizations, I always say, look, if you're if you're at least if you're 50 feet from the problem, you shouldn't be solving it. You should bring the people who are dealing with the problem and ask them what could be better, what could make it better? And and you know, again, getting people to come up with their own solutions. And I've seen it. Um, I was working with a copper refinery uh group years ago, and they it was originally where the management was saying to folks, like, these guys are messy, they're slobs, and da-da-da-da-da. And and there's all this contention. And we just went in there and said, What would it take to clean up the place? So they said we need more trash cans. Where would you put them? Well, we put them here, here, here, and here. Great, let's do it. We bought some hefty trash cans, they put them where they needed to go or they wanted them to go. And within a couple of weeks, it was spotless. The refinery was spotless. And then the management's like, hey, they have some good ideas. It's like, yeah, freaking listen to them. So, you know, it's not hard. I think people, you know, we have to hold people as able. And and again, if people are frustrated, just kind of understand where that's frustrating, because frustration is misguided passion and complaints are just commitments hidden, you know. So we just got to tap in to really listen to what's really going on. And I think a lot of leaders out there think that they have to have all the answers, but hopefully you've done a good job of hiring the right people who want to do the work because they've come to you because they they like your company. So get out of the way and let them do their job.
SPEAKER_00:So nice. Yeah, I love that. I think um I remember I'm reflecting back to my time working with uh in naval special operations, and and one of the most dangerous phrases that gets thrown around was like, we've always done it that way, but we've always done it that way. And I remember there was a time of like the old guard that was in charge, and then the young bucks coming in, and we had a point where we where we took all the standard operating procedures and really looked at them and said, Hey, is there a better way to be doing this? Is there a way for us to work smarter rather than harder? And we designed some things that are still in play to this day of like really simple stuff. Like we had, like, I don't know, one of the examples like you had this giant fuel blivet that we used to like fuel the boats from, and it oh, and then we had to recover it, and it was such a pain in the ass to get this thing up onto the boat. It was so heavy and such. And and then someone was like, Hey, why don't we inflate it? Like, we sucked all the fuel out of it. Do we have a way that we could put air back into it? And we're like, Yeah, actually, we have these tanks, but the tanks are meant for this thing. You're like, Whoa, maybe we could use the tanks also for this, and then people were like, Yeah, but we've always done it this other way, and then it was like, that was I was like, that's dangerous. That term of we've always done it this way is one of the most dangerous terms, I think, out there. So I was glad to be in a position where naval special warfare, they're more open-minded and thinking outside the box and taking on ideas. And you're right, like once we came up with that stuff, we were passionate about it because we owned it, we had ownership of it, you know.
SPEAKER_01:And not only that, because you were probably at a level where your influence and your peers, they they're like, hey, if they're doing it, we should do it. And they're not hearing it from their boss, they're hearing it from you know their their colleagues. So um it makes a difference. I mean, I mean, I study that was part of my study. I studied social cognitive neuroscience, and you know, our are we are social creatures, and I think we underestimate the power of social. So if if if a team is working together on a problem and they solve together, they're committed. Um, I mean, you can move mountains. I mean, that's when I mean the I mean you know, we talk about flow and things like that. The most most potent state of flow is group flow, right? So why aren't we really tapping into getting people to be focused on where they want to go and then give them the reins to figure out how to get there? I mean, you can create criteria, like it without this, you know, it can't exceed this budget, it has to think about these are the constraints. Uh, and within the constraints that we're given, how can we make this happen? And miracles start to happen pretty quickly. Yeah, yeah, innovation is not creating new things, it's just repurposing what we have for you know, new things. So it's I don't know. I I get really fired up when people say that can't be done. And I'm like, Yeah, let's figure it out.
SPEAKER_00:So love it, yeah. Something we talked about that really stayed with me too was as you were talking about with group flow, is that energy, that energy that people tap into um in the wake of disasters? And I know you've been involved in a lot of that type of stuff. But when we have this like shared sense of humanity and we and we drop our egos drop down and we drop down roles and we just show up for each other and we have this group purpose that we're driving towards. But how can teams access that same type of energy without having to have a disaster? Like, do we need the disaster to tap into that? Do we need that disaster to happen and then we tap into it? Or can how can we find that without the disaster?
SPEAKER_01:But I mean, I think it's a great question. I mean, that's part of as you and I were talking a few weeks back, you know, the work I do here. Uh so for those of you who don't know me, which is probably all of you, um, you know, I live in Chico, California. Uh back in 2018, we had the campfire, which destroyed the town of paradise. Uh, 30,000 people were displaced literally overnight. Um, and something magical happened, you know, after that, that when that fire, when the start started to come out, people just started to figure out like, what can we do to help, right? First of all, there's just an influx of people wanting to figure something out. And I know for me, it was the next day I just felt helpless. And then I just gave everything that I owned away because we just sold our house. But I wanted to be of service, right? But I think part of what happens, and you know, the more I've done research in disasters, that you know, 95% of the people who are saved in a disaster are saved from a stranger. Like it's not EMS that comes to the rescue first. They're not first people on scene. First people on scene are the people around you when the disaster occurs. And then it once they get out of the shock, they realize something needs to be done. And I think this is where the biological stuff kicks in, neurobiological is like my survival is predicated in my ability to make you survive. You know, my odds go up. So it's very, I think it's very uh um, you know, innate in our in our in our beings to show up for people in a in a crisis. Um and so that sense of uh you know, the brain and being social and needing to connect and having that ability to cope better together with people definitely shows up after disasters. Um I was just down in Southern California uh yesterday doing a uh convening for people from who've been impacted by the uh uh Altadena and the um uh Palisades fires down there and and working with a lot of community groups that work with the most vulnerable populations and really getting them to think about how do we show up before a disaster at the same level. And and what my focus was, it was really about trust, like building trusted neighbors, getting to know your neighbor, um, you know, getting to know other people that you may not communicate. So we're like hosting block parties, getting people to connect again socially. And and the findings are really fascinating. When you connect socially, when you have those strong connections, again, you respond to and recover more quickly from disasters because of relationship. And so um I I don't know. I that's so that's my mission is to figure out how to tap into the humanity before the disasters, and it's it's one conversation at a time, it's one relationship at a time, it's uh you know, one cup of coffee with another person at a time, uh, but then that person is inspired, and maybe they bring more people under the tent. Um, because that's I mean, there's just more and more disasters happening. The the last slide that I showed my presentation is I I look at the trends and disasters rate. Um, like it from 1980, 89, um, we had average what 3.7 disasters, you know, a year. Um, last year we had 27 multi, you know, billion dollar disasters. Um, and just this year, you know, LA fires, you know, ton of money. What just happened in Texas a few weeks ago. Um, it's just we have to get our shit together in that space. Um, and and we do that through community and we do that through, you know, trust and and that's that moving towards thing. You know, I don't want to create, I keep saying it's not about creating a fear based, it's creating a focus. Like we we can really persevere. We're very resilient as human beings, and so we need to focus on the future state that we want to create, knowing that it's gonna still gonna be hard, it's gonna be challenging. So, how I show up um as a person in those rooms to kind of engage people that may be a little bit a little trepidation or maybe not even have the resources, but get them to believe again in themselves. Um, they've demonstrated resilience. Uh their communities have demonstrated resilience. Um, so let's not lose sight of it, let's just keep building upon it. So that's that's been kind of the work I've been doing. Um, yeah. It's my mission. I don't want to have to work anymore. I just want to volunteer and and do this kind of stuff. That's my that's my dream.
SPEAKER_00:So yeah, and and we were talking a little bit about it. Um, the work you're doing with paradise and the aura rings and resilience and such uh prior to hitting record. Uh, would you like to share some about that? Like how we're bringing resilience up?
SPEAKER_01:Sure, sure. So um so after the campfire, I I I got involved doing um this community resiliency program, and it was a group of us that would sit down with people who were uh survivors of the of the of the fire. And we had two women, for example, they're actually making a movie with Matthew McConaughey is coming out where he's a bus driver on a it was, you know, that was these two women in that story, uh really harrowing, terrible. They had 22 kids on a bus. So they were in one of my classes, they were talking about their experience, you know, just everyone shared, but we're teaching them how to kind of um, you know, that trauma-informed type of coaching. Um, but but the people themselves that have been in the city or the town of paradise rebuilding are, you know, they've just been going on and all the social workers were burning out. I mean, just everyone just got full into it, but it's it's kind of one of the things that they they weren't putting the oxygen mask on themselves, right? So burning out and all this other stuff. So a few weeks ago, a few months ago, actually, I was called and to to work with them. And um we uh I've been working with the Resiliency Institute. We have this assessment I was sharing with you um to get a kind of baseline. And so they get their own scores, but we get an uh aggregate of what the team score looks like. And then uh the town manager invested in giving them aura rings to do biofeedback. And um and so from just a three-month period, their team resiliency score increased pretty, pretty significantly. Uh, and the and the beautiful thing about that is that you know they're noticing that they have a little bit more control, they feel like they have the ability to recover through the course of their day, you know, they're they're building new rituals into their into their lives so that they can um bounce back uh and and be more re more resilient. We call it, they don't really like the word resilient because it was like paradise resilient, paradise strong. Um, I'm finding resiliency as a trigger word for people, so it's about well-being now. Um but it I think what it's given them is that the oar rings and being aware of the baseline of where they are, they have a clear set of where they want to be and how they want to be. Um, and then the tools that we give them are just basic practices, like you know, uh do a two-minute breath practice, you know, go out and walk, do a shift and stay, do you know, do some resourcing, go to your happy place, simple things to get on board so they could get back into the arena and get back into the game. Um and one of the employees was talking about how how different it is engaging with the community, the community members, that because he's more aware, he's better prepared to deal with people who may not be as aware so he can calm them down, right? And that's some of you know Ellen Langer's work about mindfulness. Like the more mindful I am, um I probably am demonstrating uh out to you that I'm not a threat to you, and you come in threatened, I can help you down regulate just by the state that I hold. And so um there's some cool stuff happening, and I think there's there's more potential in that. Um, but I think we're at a right now with everything going on like in LA, you know, with all the stuff happening with migrant the immigrants, and uh there's a lot of fear and a lot of anger and a lot of eat with the fire, the trauma. Um, it's been just fascinating to be down there for a couple days and um hearing their experiences, you know, but because we still got to be prepared for disasters, we still work in communities, but there's a lot of people that are now just too afraid to reach out. So there's some there's some definite obstacles in the way. Um, but we cannot survive without connecting and and working together. I don't care, like I don't care where you come from, man. If you're there to help me, I'm I'm I'm all for it. So it's like I better set those bridges earlier rather than later.
SPEAKER_00:Right. I agree 110. And you know, something that I did when I came into my new neighborhood here where I currently live that I've never done before, and I'm so grateful for my wife for encouraging me to do it. Was we bought little like just little tokens of like little gifts and such. And we went down up and down our street and we visited every house and we and we got brave and we rang the doorbell, ding dong, and they're like, What do you want? We're like, Oh, we're we live down the road now. We moved in, we just want to introduce ourselves and present you with a little little gift. And now that's turned into all of my all of the neighbors on this street. We all exchange uh presents around uh Christmas and New Year's. And I actually have a it's not here, but I have a little like one of my favorite ones was this little wooden stool that somebody made that is like the perfect height to sit and meditate on, and it's handcrafted. Uh yeah, that they gave me. And they own a they own a shop where they make wooden furniture.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. So I you so one of the things I I back in the day I used to used to do a lot of ropes courses and team building events and stuff, right? And um what was interesting about those experiences that we we we do an exercise called you go first. And and and it what you your story just reminded me of that sense of not playing you go first. You're actually playing going first. And so when we talk about you go first, it's like you know, you and me are sitting facing each other, and then I say you go first, and then you say no, you go first. We just keep pointing to each other, saying, You go first. No, we're literally yelling at each other. It only takes a few seconds, really. People start yelling really quick. You can't touch, you can't spit. Um, and then we have them pause, they stop. I'm thinking now, how does you go show? How does you how does you go first show up? And um, people are like, uh, they don't they're not really kind of getting it, right? And I and then I'll I'll say, okay, Chris, walk by me as you would a stranger on the street. We walk by each other, we don't say anything, right? I'm like, we just played it. We just played you go first, and then we slow it down and go, okay, at the point where our shoulders are crossing. That's that choice point where am I gonna say hi to you? Or am I gonna say, no, you guys hired me before I say hi to you, right? Or am I gonna trust you? You know, I'm not gonna trust you until you trust me. I'm not gonna work harder until you give me recognition, I'm not gonna put myself out there and tell it safe. You know, it's like we play this game called you go first, right? And and what demonstrated is the power of going first, which is exactly, I think that's part of the formula of humanity. Like you see somebody, I see I see unhoused people all the time, and I see them and I say, I see you. Even if they ask for money and I don't give anything, I say, Hey, I don't have any, but how are you doing? I see you, you know, and it's like we know that they're human, right? And and so um I there's just something to it, and I I'm I'm definitely maybe it's because I'm getting older and closer, closer to the to heaven, but I'm I'm much more um attuned to just noticing just the power of what it takes. Just a good morning could be huge for somebody right now, you know. So absolutely, yeah, yeah, really cool, man.
SPEAKER_02:Going first. That was awesome.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, it's it's made a big difference. And uh yeah, I I consistently go first when I think about I've even like put it on my like list of like intentions, like when I'm leaving the house. I'm like, I'm going to like try to connect in some way to everyone I run into today in my travels. And like you said, like that of like, how are you doing? And to me, it's not just like this casual phrase of like hello or what's up or anything. I'm like, no, like really, like, how are you doing? Or are you are you good? You know, yeah. Like I used to um practice going to the grocery store, and when I'm looking at the checkout lines, I'm not actually looking at like what is the shortest line and my quickest way out of here. I'm looking to see which cashier looks the most miserable. And I'm gonna go to them and I'm gonna try to express some loving kindness toward them because they're like my uh, how did it how does it resonate?
SPEAKER_01:Because again, that you doing that for that person, all of a sudden now they're kinder to the next 20 people, right? And then and then there was that movie that was built years ago. It was like based in Austin, Texas, where it just followed a person from one person to another person, and it just kind of shifted the impact of how we could have on each other. I forget the name of it, but it was really brilliantly done. And so I I just wonder like, do you ever think about it's not not that you're doing it for any reason other than just being kind, right? But you I think it's like what's the ripple effect of that, right?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, the reverberations. Yeah, yeah. I had a meditation that um I produced and put out to the world that talked about that, that talked about like um being grateful for our mentors and what they did for us and and how they influenced our actions and our decisions in life, and and then how those actions and decisions reverberated to the next person and what that may have done to reverberate to the next, to the next, to the next, to the next. And next thing you know, like you know, your the your favorite teacher in middle school has like influenced you, and your that influence has gone around the world through one person's belief in you or one person's kind action when it seemed like nobody was there for you, or something of that nature, you know.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Well, that I mean that that story resonates because I mean, it was I I think I was on a trajectory at a very young age where I got in a fight my freshman year of high school, right? Um smoking pot in fifth grade. I was doing stupid shit. And um I went to a small school and my vice principal, I so the principal came around as I'm slamming this kid's head in the locker, right? And uh I was small, I was like mean and angry. And uh I get sent to the vice principal's office, and uh his name was Mr. Beckett, and he basically gave me one of those speeches, like, Mr. Winter, I see more than you and you than you see in yourself, and blah, blah, blah, blah. So my punishment was I had to get 50 signatures to get into this student leadership class that was just getting started, right? One of the commissioner of boys' activities quit, and he's like, Hey, here's your punishment. Oh, and by the way, you gotta you're I'm gonna take you out of school um for a couple in a couple days, we're gonna go to a leadership conference in in you know, in a city a couple hours away. I'm like, Yeah, whatever. Um, it was better than being expelled. But that that moment, that that that moment in time was a defining moment for my entire life because I I go to this leadership conference, and when you were young, the girl to guy ratio in leadership conferences was like 40 to one. So it was like awesome. I was like, it was beautiful girls, and I was young and just a just a stupid high school kid. But I got to go to all these leadership conferences, and so I met my wife, you know, I've traveled the world, um, all from that one intervention, right? Just that one thing. And I I don't know where I'd be. He actually was killed my sophomore year of high school, and um and so I still think to this day, like, what would Mr. Beckett think? You know, what would Mr. Beckett want me to do? So that to your point, that legacy of that one intervention that you did for that that you know, that cashier. You you just never know that you might you might have saved her life or his life, or she was having a bad day, and you just and all of a sudden they made a different choice, and there's a result of that different choice, you know, it goes back to that that one degree could be the the the shift in the universe, you know. So I don't know right. Yeah, I love it. What would Beckett do? I don't want to be a bracelet. I well, it's so interesting because when he when he passed, he had a he had three young kids, one was uh just a relatively like six month-old, and we all wrote letters, wrote letters about the impact their dad had on our lives. And his youngest son reached out to me a few weeks ago. Um, hey, I want to talk to you because they read our they read our notes and uh yeah, I want to talk to you, I want to get to know you. So it was it's it circles back, you know. So that's amazing. It's huge, but that's that's I think that's why I'm here. It's what I do, why I do. Um, and it's all because of that that one sliver moment of getting caught in a fight, sexy vice president officer, and going into my punishment was investing in me. So it was huge.
SPEAKER_00:That's amazing, man. What a great story that is. And uh, I can't help but I keep reflecting back that you said you were smoking dope in fifth grade.
SPEAKER_02:Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and I'm like, I can relate to that. I I I started drinking and smoking dope when I was like 11 years old, and now I have a a a 12-year-old daughter, and I can't imagine that she's like, how the hell did that happen? Um, but you know, everything happens for a reason, and although I'm not exactly proud of my two and a half decades of of substance and alcohol use disorder, you know, it it set the foundation for where I am today.
SPEAKER_01:So exactly. I mean, I I'm not looking back. I mean, I definitely use the lessons um from those experiences. You know, I I I had a, you know, because of the journey I've been on, I've been uh exposed to really amazing people. And there is uh there's a guy, uh, what's his name? He he um he does a lot of stuff out there now, or he used to, he's an older gentleman now, but um, he's just talking about uh he wrote a book called Unpack Your Bags, right? And and it kind of struck me time kind of the metaphor is like, you know, how many of us have baggage in our life, right? We and everyone can say I have some baggage. And and and and so the the metaphor that at least what rung in my mind is like how often do you go on a trip where you pack your bags with shit you never need? Like, I'll read War and Peace, you know. So you carry extra 20 pounds on your fucking luggage, and um and all of a sudden I realized, Jesus man, I I'm I'm carrying a lot of weight from my past. And and so instead of like carrying it, it's like, how can I rearrange my luggage, my baggage so that it's of service to me, right? So, you know, that the 20 years that you went through, like, how is that of service to you now? Because you got you got through it, right? And and so that's and that's what I when I'm working with folks who have been, you know, in a traumatic experience. I mean, it really depends because it doesn't work for everybody. I mean, people have different degrees of um, you know, disorders and challenges, and it's chemical and it. Could be some brain damage. I mean, who knows, right? Right. But to hold space for people, right? Just to hold space for them and hear stories. And I I remember one person I that was complaining. I said, sounds like you have had an amazing life, and you've demonstrated just how tough you are. And they paused because they never thought that what they were describing was showing their own character of being tough and resilient. They just thought it was a you know a scarlet letter. It's like demonstrated perseverance of being abused and this and this and this, and you're still here.
SPEAKER_00:Right, right. Yeah, for me, I I I'm able to look back on and accept it and know that everything happened the way it had to happen. And it and it even the pain and such, like it's very unfortunate, but pain is the touchstone of growth, you know? And I had to go through what I had to go through in order to become softened up enough that I was now moldable because I was very strong-willed. And I was also as miserable as my life was for 20 about 25 years of alcohol use disorder. Um it was still comfortable. Like there was comfortable in as it was familiar. It was familiar, it was miserable, but it was familiar. So I was more frightened by like what's on the other side of sobering up and what's on the on the other side of people who be like, oh, you could be happy, joyous, and free. I'm like, that terrifies me. I've I've never felt happy, joyous, and free.
SPEAKER_01:Only oh, when only when you're using, or at least the the the perception of it, right? Because they're you know, I totally relate to that.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it's not it's not really it's uh to me, it's always been about the anticipation of what it was gonna do for me. Like I thought, like, because and it never really worked. It it and I think I I credit this to I believe it's Dave Smith who said this with Dave Smith Dharma, and he's in recovery and he and he any and he and he practices uh Buddhism and he and he talks about the Dharma. Um, but he said, you know, the problem with um drugs and alcohol is that it never worked to do what I needed it to do, but it almost worked every single time. That's why it kept coming back. I was so close, man.
SPEAKER_01:I remember when I so it's I it's interesting because when I was in college, I worked for alcohol and drug services and I was doing youth prevention work and I worked in Juki helping kids, doing genograms and stuff like that. And um and I I I would always kind of reflect on this idea. And I I went to a workshop, I don't know if it was um you know research-based, but it was some guy's theory that you know, just like we have the need for sex and to eat, we and you know, all these drives that we have, we also have a need for a higher state of consciousness, like that was his thing, right? This pursuit of like getting high, like you see it in dolphins in the wild when they're eating some of that stuff. There's something there that we want to pursue to tap into something, you know, like the the the Kool-Aid experiment, all those kind of things. But I I I wonder, but that but that's you know, I honestly, because I started from you know, in my own transition, I started doing endurance running. I started, I was a distance runner. I went to the junior mile and eight eighty. So I went from you know, doing chemicals from the outside into the the the you know, the runners high inside out. I mean, I I have been just loaded um after a good 20-mile run and be like, man, there's nothing that can beat this. Um, I still drink once in a while, but I I really moved away from um the harder stuff when I found running. Yeah, part of it I ran young too because I didn't like to be home, and so I would just run all the time to be not going to the house. Um, and so I loved running. That was my thing. And anything distance, endurance was was like my that was it was an insight. It was like that was my I tapped into my own medicine cabinet doing that kind of stuff, you know. And it was getting high on your own supply. Exactly. Yeah, yeah. And then of course, you know, you have a challenge like, okay, how can I how can I get through this? And we were doing everything from like ultra runs to riding ties to endurance rides on bicycles and endurance swims and starting into traplons, and this is when traplons started to build out of stuff. So uh I just wish I knew all the training tools that we know now because it used to be just carbo load and Draco Sierra Nevada and go run, you know, a marathon the next day, and it's like all the worst things you we used to do, thinking it was you know, carbo load before the big big race and big run, and and you're just like, oh anyway.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah. I relate to that, like um running saves my bacon as well, like it it helps me um stay in sobriety and stay in recovery. Um, so I started long distance running a decade ago, and I was eight years sober at the time. I was still in the Navy, and I was on a deployment, but my deployment was off the coast of California, so I was on a little island called San Clemente Island. Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So on San Clemente is um, I'm pretty sure it's a still this is the only active quarry in the United States military, and it's run by U.S. Navy seabees. And we literally take big rocks and make them into little rocks, and that's what we do out there. And San Clemente, probably two-thirds of the island is also an active bombing range where they would go uh ship to shore, bombs off the big ships, landing, boom, boom, boom. So like literally the island would shake, you know, as you're trying to sleep in the barracks. And uh, I was out there for seven months, and I was the only one out there that didn't drink. And everybody would work hard all day, and then they would get done with work and they would drink and they would fish. And I had no interest in either one of those, and I was like, I've got to do something, man. Or I'm like a drink started looking a lot better. So I said, nope. I watched a film, excuse me, called Western Time by Billy Yang, and it was about the Western States 100 and Sally McCrae, and I was intrigued, like, oh my god, people run a hundred miles like at once, like in one stretch. Like, this is amazing. So I ordered some running shoes, I ordered a water bottle and a little bit of nutrition, and I didn't know what I was doing either. And I trained like for like seven months, I trained for a marathon, and then I got off that island and I went up to um San Francisco and in the Marin Headlands, there was a race called the Golden Gate Marathon. It was my first trail marathon. I ran it and I got fourth place. I was like, holy cow, I might be actually pretty good at this. And then I was just intrigued and I loved it. I like I loved the training leading up to it. I love the discipline, I loved having some fun, something to focus on, and then I loved going out to the race. Like the race was like the big mission to me. And and then afterwards there was the recovery, and it just it reminded of my days working in uh special operations where there was like a training blocks up to deployment, big mission, and come back and have time to settle and such. So I stayed out in 10 10 years now.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I mean that well, that structure is really good. I mean, that's the part for me is like having a routine. I don't run anymore because my feet are thrashed, but I still swim as my thing. Um, I put in a lot of yards, so I but I have to have to myself, um, and I know how I feel. And I and I gave up drinking a few years ago. I I never, I mean, who knows if I was, but I didn't really drink. I got I I had I would have wine periodically, but then I'd go on a ride, you know, and I'd feel shitty like the next day, and like feeling shitty. So I just thought it I don't need anymore. I just stopped. Um, and then I I was telling my daughter the other day, I was like, man, even water is starting to taste like lemonade. She goes, No, it doesn't, you know, she's 25 and she's still young and dumb. And um, it's fun, but I I just I don't really have a problem going to social events and being stupid and and having fun. And I realized I don't need any of that stuff. So it's been a but it's been a journey. I mean, it's to kind of get comfortable in your skin is is and which is uh which I think drives my work. It's like I think I've shared with you, it's like, you know, when someone's complaining about anything or anyone, I just simply ask them anymore, do you like who you are in those situations? Right. Um, and it's really being able to like uh you know, understand, hey, what is it that I don't like about myself in this situation, right? And then what choices do I have to make it right? Right. If you're being you know inappropriate or saying things that I don't appreciate, hey Chris, I don't really appreciate that, you know, and it's just me, it's not you, it's just this is the impact. But you're I'm not gonna blame you, I'm just gonna say I don't I don't appreciate that, you know. You know, can we focus on something different? You know, it's like that ability to be uh courageous enough to say what you need um or ask for what you need from others. I mean, that's kind of the basis of psychological safety, you know, because if you judge me, that's that's really more about you. I'm not gonna let you get into my chili anymore. So but I'm also not gonna be self-righteous either. I'm like, hey, that's just you. But this is what I want in our relationship, which is I want to be talking about these things because you're important to me. And you know, what's going on? Why are you up? You know, so that kind of stuff.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and that takes a lot of courage to to establish those boundaries and and and make those statements and ask those questions and such. It took me it took me 60 years to get here though, buddy. Cool. Well, I got nine to catch up, then I got nine more years to get where you're at. Well, hey, let's switch gears a little bit. Um, when we had a conversation and you were talking about your world travels and things you've done and people you've met, um, you've had some time to sit with uh Wim Hoff.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah. What was that like? So it was part of the after the campfire, I really was committed to like finding alternative ways for people to get unstuck. And so um I flew out to Poland and or I went to it was I went into uh it was the Czech Republic, and then we took a bus ride to his place and um spent a week with him out there and had an amazing experience. I'd seen his uh documentary of the on the vice documentary they did on him, and I checked it out. I was at that point, I was kind of stepping into uh Stephen Cotler's world and the flow research collective with Jamie Wheel, and um they had mentioned the Wim Hof. Wim Hoff kept coming up in a lot of our meetings. I'm like, what's Wim Hof? So I looked it up and I actually did it at home. I practiced it and I had this really emotional release just doing the breath work. Um started doing the cold immersion, and I just wasn't sure if I was doing it right. So I signed up to spend a week with him. Um, and it was insane. It was it was a couple things that I really took away from that experience was um one one of the things he said, he he said he said that he goes, to feel is to understand. And that has really resonated me because it's like again, when I'm feeling something, and it's tied to the resiliency work that I do is to say if I know where I am, I should know what to, I should know what to do, right? So what is what I'm feeling saying to me? It means something, right? And it's not a judgment, it's I want to make sense of the feeling, right? To feel is to understand. So, what can I understand about myself and how I'm coping in this moment without judgment? Because I think that's that's like the silent um killer in a lot of ways. Like we judge it as bad, good, indifferent. It's like I don't want to put a judge, I just want to know why it's there. And so that was one of the key takeaways. And and then on the second night we were there, we he was doing the power breathing exercise. So you do the, you know, when you're breathing and then you you hold and then you need to breathe again. Well, when you breathe in, you breathe in really high and then you squeeze, and you're like pretending like the air is going above your head. And I had I lit up like a bloody Christmas tree. Mike, I I felt this electrical charge of my nose, right? And it went to the side of my face, and I literally felt like I was looking through, like I'd walk through this wall, right? I mean, it was better than any sort of hallucinogenic I'd probably ever taken in my life. It was insane. And so I walked through this thing, and I'm I just had this huge emotional release. I just started, I just started bawling like a like a baby. And I was like, damn, where's this coming from? And it was like it was a huge release for me. And so go on, we do the cold immersion, we spend like 10 minutes in 32 degree water, we hike up the mountain in our boots and just shorts and um just all this. But and then the community that I was part of was amazing. And then on the last night, we're in his place and we're doing the breathing and we do the power breathing again as a we're all holding hands with the people we'd been with, and similar phenomenon, electrical charge, electrical charge. And I actually walked through this whatever veneer it was between reality and the new reality I stepped into, and um fractals, uh this incredibly light, bright light. And I I think it has something to do with maybe the pineal gland in our brain, but it was something something was lighting up again, not a huge emotional release. I mean, it was insane. I mean, I got back from that and I would cry at a commercial. Man, I was just like on board for a little bit, but it I it just I felt like I was reborn in such a way that I'm like, wow, that's pretty awesome. You know, it was really, I mean, I felt grounded and centered for, you know, really insane. Um, and so I actually brought one of the first instructors to Chico and um to do some stuff with some of the fiery foot fire, you know, people who've been dealing with the Rick Fire stuff and had a couple uh vets there as well. Nice similar experiences, you know, a lot of emotion, a lot of tears, a lot of just releases. And now one guy who owns a gym in town, he he continues to practice it as much as he can. Um, but it really helps keep his his perspective. But um, yeah, I was trying to find alternative ways because I think you know, we could do there's any number of types of therapies, but not all therapies work for everyone. So there's any number of ways that we can access um the better part of ourselves, and and so it it helped. But I I still practice the breast dwarf and um the cold stuff, and yeah, yeah, it was crazy.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Yeah, me too. Uh I still practice as well. Um, I actually did a breath work practice before I hopped on this call with you, and um, I'm still a big fan of cold showers, uh, as cold as I can get them here. Um, I put a shade structure over my water tent out or water tank out back to try to keep it as cool as possible. Um, and then we have uh it's become pretty popular in town. I want to say there's maybe a dozen places that are doing saunas and ice baths now and uh red light therapy and and all these different things. And and something that keeps coming up in this call that that that's important to me too is just that connection that you get with people when you're going through those modalities together. Um because I thought to myself, like, you know, I could put an ice bath right here at the house and I could get a sauna and put it out back. I'm like, but if I do that, then I I don't leave the house and I don't I don't go have that community uh that that exists at the the saunas around town.
SPEAKER_01:So I keep going to the saunas and uh yeah and I mean it goes back to the part of that whole process is you know what I'm keep learning too, it's it's more about recovery than it is about effort, in my view now. You know, it's like I'm much more into you know sitting in the saunas and doing the meditation as a method and a ritual of recovery uh and renewal rather than of you know trying to be high performance, right? Because that's not sustainable. So I I think that you know, as we continue to evolve in our understanding of what we're capable of, and that's why the capacity, it's like just think of your capacity because you you invested that 10 minutes and that the the the tail effect of that throughout the course of your day is now that much better. So I I yeah, it's awesome. And doing a setting is great too.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah. So let's let's bring something practical to to this conversation. Not that the things we're talking about aren't practical, but what if someone is like listening right now? It's like, you know, I wish they could just give me like one thing, like one small thing that I could do because I'm here, I'm feeling stuck, maybe it's it's just stuck in my relationships, or I'm just feel stuck in my career, or I just feel stuck in life. Like, do you have any advice for someone that could be like one small but powerful thing that someone could do?
SPEAKER_01:Um yeah, I mean, there's as you're talking, there's a couple things. One of the pieces that I I what I practice a lot of times is if I'm feeling stuck, the question is, what am I focusing on? Right. So it's like I talk about, well, uh some of this work comes from David Emerald stuff that I use, but he talks about, you know, what's your orientation? Do you have a problem or an outcome? Like, what am I focusing on? Right. And I struggled that the last few this last year with everything going on in DC, I, you know, I've lost a ton of work, a lot of money and work contracts that I had. And so I've had to completely pivot. Um and and and I had I was kind of going through a rediscovery of like, okay, what do I want? You know, I'm I could easily focus on what I don't want and feel stuck and trapped and pissed off, and and I don't want to be there. And so I said, Well, what do I want? And so I just asked him that question, well, what do I really want? And even if it's I don't know, but then I said, Well, what do I want to be? Like, how do I want to feel? And that's what I'm shooting. And so I think I shared with you. It's like I started working on my to be list rather than my to-do list, right? I want to be calm, I want to be alert. I've actually been doing a lot of uh reading James Dody's work, if you're familiar with his stuff. Um, he's he's uh he's a he's a neurosurgeon, and um he does he something called the alphabet of the heart. And so I do my he he he talks about it's compassion, dignity, equanimity, forgiveness, gratitude, humility, integrity, justice, kindness, and love. And so that's my my my my mantra in the morning. I'll focus on that, set the intention. But I think for people who are stuck, is first of all, you're not stuck throughout the whole day. You know, you might be stuck in moments and you might be aware in those moments, but then you get distracted. But it's in those moments when I sometimes find darkness uh or darkness is creeping in. I'll say, you know, uh, and part of this is I had cancer back in 2012, and um the the the the trap that I got into, I I was like my little voice was going off, right? And and and uh I I go to my physician, I said, How do I stop the internal chatter? And he goes, just tell it to stop. And I'm like, Oh fuck, that's so easy, but it's so fucking hard. And so I but I really worked on just practicing that, right? Just stop. What do I want? Well, I want to be here for my kids. I want to be here, I want to, you know, so what do I want to focus on? And I changed my focus on what I wanted to be doing. Um, and so because I would literally go, I'm feeling those are tumor, those are tumor. I'm freaking my fucking self out. And I just like I don't want to be in this head space. Um, and so I just you know, I changed my focus. I I would, you know, if I started feeling darkness, I'd go outside and and go in the park and I would do things to change my state. Um and and I and yeah, so that's a very practical thing, is just I'd go to my happy place. I mean, that's one of the we call it resourcing in the community resiliency model, but you literally can. I would just okay, I don't want to be here. Where do I want to be? I want to be here. And I would settle into that. Um, and actually now I use it as part of my thinking exercises. I have a, I think I showed you, I have a drone that you can fly with your thoughts, right? So the calmer you get, the higher this thing flies. And then all and all I ask people is like, go to your happy place, go to a place that when you go there, you go into a calm, you know, calm state, and all of a sudden this thing starts to fly. And so that's the practice is just go to your happy place. Quickest way to un is going because your brain's 60% of your brain's pro 60% of your brain's processing is visual. And so use the tools you have, just like running BKMR high or kind of our our our our our cabinet for our uh our drugs, because you can't buy the level of drugs that we can get internally. Like if we were to buy the level of you know drugs on the street that are in our bodies, you you would die. So we have the access to that, and so just same with our brain, like you change that neurochemistry, you change your state. Um, yeah, so just yeah, I would I go to my happy place quite a bit because it can get pretty sometimes.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, because I uh yeah, I have this magic magnifying mind, right? That what I think of gets bigger and bigger. So if I think of the solutions and I think of where I want to be heading towards rather than what I want to avoid. And also a lot of times I find that uh the analogy I've used was something uh I was super lucky when I was working with special operations. They sent me to rally car racing school twice. I got to drive rally cars through.
SPEAKER_01:Where you focus the car is where you go.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, so they they told me they said a really great rally car uh driver will see the road before they hit the trees because they'll never look at the trees, they'll only look at the road, and they'll never give up on that. They think they're gonna pull it out, right? So even if they're like backwards sliding, they're gonna look out the rear window towards the road and be driving towards that road the entire time because where you where you go.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I mean, you hear that with motorcycle riders. I mean, I we used when we used to do team building uh events, we took people high high performance race car driving, and you you go around the track with a race car driver, or you drive around the track at like 85 miles an hour, you're like, I'm hauling ass, and then you get in there going 185 miles an hour. It's like, oh, I suck. And and what they tell you is like you aim the car where you want it to go, right? Yeah, and so I want to aim and and it and I think I want to be really cautious around this because to me it's it's it's not about that toxic positivity because I do think it's okay to feel shitty too. I don't mind feeling shitty, I don't judge my shitty feelings. I'm like, huh, I feel shitty. This will pass. Um I'm still stuck in that place and it they're in a different place. But I I found that for me personally, um, I'm okay with struggle, I'm okay with um disappointment, I'm okay. You know, when my brother passed a few years ago and I got to be as doula, I helped him transition and I just fucking cried my eyes out and I felt grief, and and in that grief became peace. And um and so I I just I think that to feel is to understand, it's like it's okay to feel shitty. It's okay to it's okay to be these things, and that's why reaching out to people and and having you in my circle now is like, man, I have some another person to reach out to. So if if so-and-so can't pick up the fall, well, Chris, it's 11 p.m. And I know it's probably you know, maybe somewhere in the morning your time. So you got a minute?
SPEAKER_00:Absolutely, I absolutely do. Yeah, that that's powerful, man. Is is is recog as uh one of my favorite meditators, uh teachers of all time is Tara Brock, and she talks about in her rain, rain meditation, where she talks about just recognizing what's going on inside of us, recognizing, recognizing the feelings that are present, recognizing the emotions that are present, and we can recognize, recognize, recognize, right? And then she says, allow. And then people are like, Whoa, wait, allow? Allow it, yeah, allow it to be here. Oh, hello, anxiety, welcome. Come in, have a seat, let's have some tea, allow it to be here, investigate. Her next thing is investigate, investigate where you feel in your body, investigate where you, you know, what sensations are present, investigate what thoughts are present, you know, and then the last part of rain is to nurture, to ask ourselves, like, well, what do I need right now? What do I need right now? And and and and that's part of also um you know, uh mindfulness, self-compassion of asking ourselves and recognizing that this is a moment of suffering, also recognizing that I'm not the only one in the world that's ever felt this way. Many people are feeling this way right now, all around the globe. And then ask myself, like, what do I need? What do I need right now? Maybe it's a soft touch, a hand on the heart, maybe it's a walk in the park, maybe it's a nice deep breath, maybe it's a sip of cool water with my my lime here. Whatever it might be.
SPEAKER_01:Well, and I think it's so important to again give ourselves permission. I mean, I think we talked too like the first stage of flow is struggle, right? You can't get to a high-performance state until you struggle. And so, you know, during COVID, we were doing a lot around helping people understand flow and and we just focus on the bookends of flow, like struggle more effectively, recover more efficiently. If you just did those two things, you would definitely navigate the crazy, you know? And it so, first of all, but I just found that people had a hard time struggling. They they put so much negativity on the struggle, but at the same time, it's like you know in order to learn, agitation is the first sign that you're learning, right? So all it means is you don't know, you don't have the tools yet, right? Or you or the right whatever to get past what you're currently stuck in, but you have the potential. And so I just if I don't know, then it means I have an opportunity to learn something. So I like the most annoying people in my life, I've turned them into my teachers. That's how I frame it, right? Because I still haven't learned the lesson. Like, what is it about this person? It's making me feel what I feel about myself right now. Oh, it's not about them. It's just it reminds me of Mrs. So-and-so when I was in seventh grade, right? And so now I'm triggered because my nervous system takes over. So um, yeah, that practice is it, it's just it's like just going inwards in a way, not to get self-absorbed, but just to be self-aware enough to know that um, you know, I want to be, I want to be in a place where I can add value. I want to be in a calm alert. Uh, there's a neuroscientist, her name's Heidi Hannah, that I've uh worked with, and she calls it a GPS. So the goal is the state I want to hold, right? So I want to be calm and alert, and the purpose is because I have anxiety or whatever. And so, and then the S is strategies. So, how do I what are the strategies I do to get into calm and alert? Um, going back to like the to be list rather than a to-do list kind of thing. So, how do I be as I stepped into this space? Um, if I'm ruminating on something I have to step into, how do I want to be as I step into? Like I had to work in front of like 200, you know, four fifty people last couple days, and you know, I used, I mean, I used to sweat profusely. My body would just react. I just so anxious, and I could totally pull it off because I'm the facilitator, whatever, but I would still be just just weathing inside of just anxiety, and and now I'm like, I'm not sweating anymore, I'm totally at peace.
SPEAKER_00:I want to be prone. So I was um, I was not at that level, like it was only 24 people, but I was an instructor for like three years at a schoolhouse in the Navy, and I never got used to getting up on stage and having the podium and having the clicker and standing in front of the PowerPoint and teaching eight hours a day. So um, I think her name is perhaps Amy Cuddy, I want to say. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. She does the active posturing, taking all that. Yeah, I used to do that. I used to do that in the restroom. Before I would go out on the podium, I'd be like getting big and taking up space, and I'd be putting my hands on my hips and do like power posing and like, oh, you can do this, you can do this. And one time, like somebody walked in. I've got like my hands in the air, standing in the restroom on this military schoolhouse. I'm like, what the hell are you doing? I'm like, I'm taking this work.
SPEAKER_01:You go back into class, everyone's like, That's him.
SPEAKER_00:It's the crazy guy. But yeah, I was like, fake it, I was faking it until I became it, you know, and then by the end, like I was uh still not a hundred percent comfortable. I mean, I still get those jitters, but I reframe them as like uh, like you'll if I'm ever presenting, you may hear me when I hop on the call, like, I'm so excited to do this thing, I'm so excited to be here, which means like I'm scared shitless. Exactly.
SPEAKER_01:What's the point's anxiety? Well, so again, I I I have such a cool gig in my life because like I get to work with the Olympics, you know, I get to do and and so it's interesting, like you hear an Olympic athlete being interviewed by someone like were you nervous? Like, no, I was excited, like so where we process nervous anxiety is the same part of the brain that does excitement. So it's like reframe it so it's of service to me. Goes back to pat repack the bag, right? Under to feel is to understand, I'm feeling this. How else can I use it for good? Right. So again, but that's a practice, it's not an easy thing to do, but just to notice, like, ah, name it, tame it, use it, you know. So it's it's different, but it's it's but it's work. I mean, again, this has been a long journey for me. Um, I've had a lot of great mentors, I've had a lot of great um bad experiences that allowed me to practice this stuff. So uh, you know, it's like it takes work. I mean, I I always think of like um like P90X, and you see those people that they they look really fat and and ugly in the beginning, and then they leave you know sick 12 weeks later and they're just rock stars, right? They don't tell you that they're on a like a 500 calorie diet, right? They're they're not they're not showing you all the behind the scenes. No magic bullet, it's effort, you know, it's so much effort to put into but I think going back to if I'm stuck, it's like, how do I want to be? And and then am I in pursuit of that versus all my time to your point moving away from what I don't want because that's a huge energy stock, in my view. Um, and again, it doesn't mean that getting to what I want to be is going to be easy, it's gonna take you know, it's discipline to stay sober, you know, it's discipline to say your truth, it's discipline to um, because again, social. I mean, I our again. Our brains are social, and I think we underestimate the power of it. But you get rejected, that's like getting punched in the face, right? So, why would I ever say that to you again? Or why would I ever say what I'm feeling to somebody? Because last time I said I was feeling to somebody, they laughed at me, and I'm never gonna go through that again. My brain, I mean, I mean, who puts their hand on a freaking hot stove more than hot stove more than once? Like, so yeah, so again, it's like putting it into practice. That's the work. It's the the work isn't the work is making the choice and and then also giving yourself the the baby steps to get there. We well, I'll share we used to do these ropes courses. Um and one of the clients we had was uh cancer, breast cancer survivors, right? And uh it was a it's called the Healing Odyssey program. It was really intense where all these women who were either had cancer or were recovering, coming out of it. Um, and so one of the events we did was called the the pole. They had to climb up this 40-foot pole, stand on top of it, catch a trap peas, right? And those events are all challenged by choice, right? So everything's about choice. And this one woman is off to the side and she's just crying, like, I can't do it. She's just sobbing the whole time. And all the women are, you know, they're choosing to put on the gear, they're choosing to come to the ladder, make a choice. They make a choice whether to climb or not climb. But the key is be clear on the choice you need to make. And so this woman finally, I said, you know, we're running, you know, you, you know, we're coming to last. I go, do you do you want to do it? She goes, Yeah, but I just don't think I can. I'm like, okay, I understand that. I go, but do you want to? I want to. I said, so do me a favor. I said, stand on the ground. Like you where you're standing right now. I want you to show me what it would feel like for you if you're standing on top of that pole. And man, her physiology just went, boom, man. She just got nailed. She was like, like, like just like almost instantaneously. She just put herself on top of that pole on the ground, right? And I said, So the question I have is that feeling worth going for? And she goes, I guess. So I'm like, and I go, You guess? I know. You know, she's still kind of sobbing, and I'm like, great. So now the first thing, if you if that's what you want to go for, that feeling, then the first question I have is, can you go over to the gear area and get it put on you? Yes, I can. Okay. More importantly, do you choose to do that? Yes, I choose. So she goes over there, puts on the gear, and then after you do that, you can come to the ladder. We'll put the carabiners on you and stuff. And um, then you have to make a choice whether you want to climb or not. Can you do that? I can. Do you choose to? I choose to. So she goes, gets there, I go now. You have to make the choice to climb. You choose to climb. Or can you climb? Yes, I can. Do you choose to? Yes. Okay, now you got to put that first foot on that first rung. Can you do that? I can. Do you choose to? I choose to. Boom. Puts her first feet on the rung. And next thing you know, she's on top of this thing. And everyone's just going crazy because they've seen and witnessed this person. It's like, I can't, I can't, I can't. And finally she she gets it, she's successful. She comes down. Everyone's just going crazy. She gives me a big hug, and I go, now you got to think of all the said things you said to yourself that you said you couldn't do. And it's about choice. It's really about choice. And and I think that's the thing that I guess part of that capacity building is recognizing the power of choice in something of this because, like, you know, can I run a marathon? Sure. Do I choose to? No. Right? A lot of people say I can't run a marathon. Right. They just say I can't. But they can. They can walk it, you know, they can trot it, they could do it. Anyone can do it mostly. I mean, I've seen people with no legs do a marathon. So don't tell me an able-bodied person can't do a marathon. But it's a matter of choice. And I think the number one cause of hypertension for people in stress is feeling like they don't, they can't do things, that they they have no agency. And so that capacity is getting people to see that they have agency in themselves. And then if we could count that within a team, our capacity goes up. And if we can do that, and all the teams are doing that, then the organization's capacity grows up or the community's capacity grows up. And I think maybe that's going back to our original thing around building humanity is just showing the power of that we have a lot more power in choosing to go towards things together and heal together. And yeah, so uh but it's about choice because I I can I can do a lot of things, and I'm also clear if it's not a hell yes, I'm not gonna do it. You know, I learned that from one of the podcasts other many years ago, it's changed my life. Like I choose not to, and I'm playing with the choice so I can be folks what I want to be doing, right?
SPEAKER_00:So yeah, that's amazing, man. Yeah, I love it. What a great conversation, Scott. Um let's let's bring this thing into a close with um I asked this is the final question I do with this podcast, and um it's the billboard question. So let's say you have a billboard, and a billion people are gonna see this billboard. It can anything can be on the billboard. It could be a picture, it could be a quote from you, it could be a quote from someone else. Anything can be on this billboard, but a billion people are gonna see it. What's gonna be on your billboard?
SPEAKER_01:I would say it would be the infinity sign. Anyone and anyone can make up what that means, but that's fine. All right, cool. It's not the infinity par symbol either. I don't I don't those cars suck, but I I this is always I love it.
SPEAKER_00:Dude, this has been a great conversation that I'm gonna continue to come back to. Um, I love how you are able to blend science with heart and systems in a way that that really clicks for me.
SPEAKER_01:And um well, Chris, listen, I I want to have the people hear this because I think this is one of the things that it's been the gift getting to know you and I think I shared with you. But I I really do honor and I love myself in your presence because you create that space for me. And um, I think that's also the the secret sauce to all of this is just being in a place where we create space for each other so that they show up who they want to be. And and I I appreciate that. And I I was really honored for this invitation. So wow man, dude, you're making me tear up.
SPEAKER_00:I love it. This is a great, it's a great podcast. Whenever I uh whenever I have tears in my eyes, like that's a sign to me that what a great, what a great podcast. Oh man, I love it. What a great compliment, you know. What a great thing that I love myself in your presence. Like that I'm holding on to that one. That is gold, dude. So hey, if people want to find out more about uh Scott Winters, where can they um where can they find you? What's uh check you out?
SPEAKER_01:Yep, the first thing is my last name is Winter. There's no S. Sorry. Uh no worries, no worries. And it's because when I was in high school, we had two boys with the with it, we had the Winters boys, and I'd go to school on Monday and like, hey, where did you get a resident? Like, no, no, that was someone else. That was the Winters. Uh so anyway, I have a little bit of scar tissue around that one. Um, second thing is so, in order to reach me, I'm at uh I have a LinkedIn Scott Winter. I don't do a lot of social media because I don't like adding to the noise, I just do a Sunday reflection. And then uh the Collaborative Commons, we're redoing the website right now. Uh, like again, it's going to be focusing on that capacity building. But the other part of the commons is not just about me. We're really building a community of people like me, so you could be a member. Um, and it's so we have an outs outward facing thing for customers, but a back end for people like yourself who want to be of service to grow capacity so that we could promote you through our website to say, hey, if you need a coach, we got Chris, you know, like I want to be building that capacity because again, it takes takes a village, and rising tide raises all boats. And I want to I want to be a part of raising the tide, and I want you to be one of the one of the boats in in the in the in the fleet so we can keep making a difference.
SPEAKER_00:So awesome, man. All right, folks. What a great conversation. That's a wrap on this episode of Cognitive Fitness Coach. Is something in this conversation sparked a question, a reflection, or maybe a next step for you? Follow it, journal it, move with it, and then ask yourself maybe this week is like, how can I move toward the solution in my life? How can I move more towards the person I want to become? Until next time, I encourage you to keep training your mind, take good care of your nervous system, peace, be well. Thanks again, it's gonna be a good idea.
