129: When Baby Sleep Advice Becomes Dangerous

In this episode of The Baby Tribe, Afif speaks to BBC journalist Divya Talwar about her investigation into unsafe advice given by some self-described baby sleep experts. Divya explains why the BBC pursued the story, what parents told her, and how exhaustion, social media credibility and gaps in postnatal support can leave families vulnerable to advice that may conflict with safer sleep guidance. After the interview, Afif and Anne debrief the key issues: normal infant sleep, back-to-sleep guidance, clear cot spaces, front sleeping, loose bedding, breathing monitors, reflux and allergy claims, and how parents can judge whether someone offering sleep advice is properly qualified and working within safe boundaries. This episode is not about blaming tired parents. It is about helping families find support that is safe, evidence-based and honest about its limits. BBC Documentary: https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/ce84e1vn1l2o Safe co-sleeping: https://profafif.substack.com/p/co-sleeping-all-you-need-to-know?r=4l3k10 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:01

This show is part of the Head Stuff Podcast Network.

SPEAKER_02 0:07

Welcome to the Baby Tribe. I'm your host, Afi Felke Fash, Neonatologist, pediatrician, and lactation consultant, and my co-host is Anne Deharty, obstetric anesthesiologist. There's a particular kind of exhaustion that only new parents understand. It's 3 o'clock in the morning, the house is dark, your baby has woken again, you have fed them, changed them, robbed them, winded them, whispered things into the void that no adult should ever have to say out loud. You love them completely, but you are running on fumes. And in that moment, a phone can feel like a lifeline. You search, you scroll, you look for someone who seems to have the answer, someone confident, someone with thousands of followers, someone with a book, a course, a method, and a promise. And that's where the story begins. A recent BBC investigation by journalist Divya Talwar and her colleagues looked into the world of self-described baby sleep experts. Their undercover reporting revealed advice that medical professionals described as dangerous, including advice that went directly against safer sleep guidance. This matters because sleep advice is not just lifestyle advice when it involves a baby. It can become safety advice. It can become feeding advice. It can also become medical advice. And when the person giving that advice is not properly qualified, not regulated, and not working within clear clinical boundaries, the consequences can be serious. I want to be very clear from the start. This episode is not about blaming parents. As a parent who looks for sleep help, you are not weak, you are not foolish, and you are not failing. You are tired, vulnerable, and often unsupported. And when you are exhausted, certainty is seductive. Someone saying I know exactly what is wrong can feel like a rescue. But confidence is not the same as competence. So today I am speaking to Divya Talwar, the BBC journalist behind this investigation. I'll ask her why she pursued the story, what parents told her, what shocked her the most, and what she thinks families need to know. Then Anne and I will debrief together. We'll talk through safer sleep, normal infant sleep, reflux and allergy claims, breathing monitors, social media experts, and how parents can protect themselves without feeling judged. Because the message is not do not ask for help. The message is ask for help from the right people and never let anyone make unsafe advice sound like a clever trick. Divya, thank you so much for joining me on the baby tribe. And before we get into the detail of what you found, will you let me know why did you decide to investigate the baby sleep industry?

SPEAKER_04 2:40

Like a lot of my investigations, it started with people impacted. So I started speaking to parents who were telling me about their experiences of the baby sleep industry, people who'd received advice, people who'd also been giving advice. So we spoke to a number of sleep coaches, consultants, experts who themselves were concerned about stories that they'd been hearing from parents. And as we started looking into it, we realized that this wasn't just a case of bad advice. This was actually advice being given to parents that was dangerous, that could have increased the risk of accidental death or sudden infant death syndrome. So we felt a real responsibility to investigate further to understand where this was coming from, the scale of it.

SPEAKER_02 3:32

We're both parents. I'm probably a little bit more ahead of the game than you are. My kids are 18 and 15, but even I still remember the difficulty we encountered as parents when our kids were young. Especially we were both medics. I was doing pediatrics at the time. My wife is an anaesthetist. But despite that, we just found the unpredictability of baby sleep so challenging. And I guess your report, which I um will will share in the show notes, and I think everybody should go and watch, it opens with a very familiar image of a first-time parent that is awake at night, exhausted, scrolling online for answers. Did you get a sense that this desperation was a big part of the story?

SPEAKER_04 4:12

Absolutely. I mean, every conversation I had with a parent, the same few words kept coming up: desperate, vulnerable, sleep-deprived, broken. And when you are in that frame of mind, it's it's clear to see why you may be so vulnerable to that kind of information. Many of the parents said to me, Look, we had gone to the NHS, we had spoken to people, and we just didn't get the support that we needed. And in their desperation, they felt like they had no choice but to look for private support. And when you are, as a parent, you've probably all been there. It's the early hours of the morning, you've probably woken up for your tenth time, and you do, you do go for your phone. And when you're on Instagram or TikTok, and you come across these huge accounts that appear on the face of it, very credible, and they're promising you that your baby is gonna sleep through the night. You can see why parents are maybe susceptible to that message, may say, This is the person that I need. It could help me make me feel like myself again.

SPEAKER_02 5:19

Yeah, I guess what also doesn't help is the concept of social proof. I feel that some of those accounts are very good at establishing that because um, you know, some of those so-called sleep experts have been on very credible TV shows, both actually in Ireland and in the UK. Um they have books, they um there's a general sense that they can be trusted by others. Um what what is your experience with social media perpetuating that?

SPEAKER_04 5:51

I mean, social media is often where people will go to find the help. It starts off just scrolling, looking for advice. A lot of parents have said that the algorithm just knows you're a sleep-divide parent, and then all of a sudden all you're seeing is these sleep accounts telling you, giving you advice, telling you what's normal, what's not normal, and where where to look for that support. And I think as a parent, when they come across an account that has tens of thousands of followers, it's being followed by influencers, celebrities, you can see that they've published books, you can see that they've been on the TV. On the face of it, that is, I mean, that individual appears incredibly credible. And it's only when you have then it's only when you spend a substantial amount of money, hundreds, even thousands of pounds, that you really know what advice you're being given in those one-to-one consultations. So it is really hard for parents to navigate this mindfill that is social media and to really know who they can trust.

SPEAKER_02 6:51

You probably went into this expecting to find concerning advice. But when you were actually watching the undercover consultations, what shocked you the most?

SPEAKER_04 6:59

Gosh, all of it. But mainly, I think there was a couple of things. Firstly, the confidence with which the unsafe advice was given. There was no caveats, there was no, you know what, this is my advice, but actually the guidance says this. This could increase, we're not talking about a baby getting a cold or this being uncomfortable, this could increase the risk of sudden infant death syndrome. And if you all know the the undercover, the situation we presented was of a nine-week-old baby. That is an age where a baby is very vulnerable, that is within the age range where the the majority of cases of SIDS do occur. And at no point did anyone mention safer sleep in any of those consultations. And I think the other thing that was shocking for us is just how just how varied the advice was. So it wasn't just about sleep, there was advice around feeding and biologically normal infant feeding behavior. And this we we showed the experts the entire consultation that we filmed. Um, and they were shocked that the individuals were giving advice so outside of their scope, you know, so outside of their knowledge base.

SPEAKER_02 8:19

That's one of the things that struck me the most was the medical overreach that was there. I mean, I heard terms like reflux, camel protein allergy, tongue tie, laryngomalacia, digestive problems. And I also, during myself watching the video, I felt that they were actually giving medical advice, advice that I would sometimes give to my patients. But I have the medical background to be able to give it within the context. And some of those individuals don't have a medical degree, yet they are diagnosing medical conditions. That made me quite alarmed. Did parents tell you that sometimes they felt that they were to blame, or maybe even frightened at being told their baby was in pain or some medical condition has been missed?

SPEAKER_04 9:04

Absolutely. I mean, one of the mothers we spoke to was someone called uh Emily, and she told us how she had a consultation, paid more than £500 for this consultation, and the advice that she was given was that your baby has reflux. The cause of that reflux is breastfeeding. Your baby is in in constant pain. There's this wrong with your baby, there's this wrong with your baby. And Emily told us that she was just so shocked by that advice, and she got off that call just feeling like she was made to feel like she was essentially blamed for her baby's pain. And as a as a new parent, you want to do everything you can to protect your little one. So being told that actually you've missed your baby's pain, this is ultimately the reason why your baby's not sleeping, it was just incredibly shocking for her. But the problem was she was like, I've I've just heard all of this stuff, but where do I go with it? Like, who do I tell that I got this really bad advice? Who do I report this individual to? And Emily's sister is actually within the the, she's a medical professional, so she sense-checked the information that was shared with her, and so she didn't follow any of the advice. But other parents, we have spoken to them, and when they have been told there's something wrong with your baby, this is the issue, they have gone down a path of medicating their baby, they have gone down a path of seeking medical solutions when actually they've told us there was nothing wrong with their child, except that they were waking very frequently, so it's the the pathologizing of very normal infant behavior, which is to wake up often. And as challenging as that is for parents, you know, sometimes all they need to be told is it's normal, your baby's not broken. Baby's waking up very frequently, that is normal.

SPEAKER_02 10:56

And I guess it's it's a good time to maybe talk about the fact that not all sleep consultants give dangerous advice. There are very good, reputable sleep consultants. We've had them on our podcast, and they actually their approach is to first of all normalize this behavior, acknowledge that this behavior is normal, but also acknowledge that it's challenging and empowering parents with the tools to deal with this um variable behavior rather than trying to maybe make the parents think that you can consolidate baby sleep when when it when you can't. One of the things that struck me is the overemphasis on putting babies on their front to sleep. And we know that that is a major risk factor for SIDS. But it was interesting how it was framed. Um, I have the quote here: I can't tell you to do this, but every baby I work with sleeps on its front. It's a clever way of saying, I'm not telling you to do this, but that's how things should be.

SPEAKER_04 11:51

Yeah, I mean, when we showed that undercover secret filming to our experts, so both of them were NHS medical professionals, they picked up on that and said, although the individual does say on a number of occasions, I can't tell you to do this, I can't tell you to do this, actually, the message was this is the advice I'm giving you. I'm advocating for you as a mother to place your baby on their front, and in fact, that may solve all your problems. Your baby just doesn't like sleeping on their back. And then to give examples where you know you say that every baby I've ever worked with sleeps on their front. I've been doing this for many years, every baby sleeps on their front. You know, there's for the mother, although on one hand you're saying I can't tell you this advice, what the mother is taking away is going to be very different, essentially that actually my baby probably just doesn't like sleeping on their back.

SPEAKER_02 12:45

Although sleeping on the front is the major big thing that we warn against, I also noticed that there was a lot of advice about muslins, rolling towels, positioning the babies in the cot. And I guess that kind of advice may be harder for parents to identify as risky.

SPEAKER_04 13:02

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you know, loose items in the cot, it seems harmless, doesn't it? You know, place a muslin, place a rolled-up towel. But the the safer sleep guidelines are really clear. Keep the the baby's sleep space cot completely clear because anything that, you know, towels or muslins could pose both an overheating risk and also a breathing risk for the the infant. So although advice on the surface may seem quite harmless to a parent, you know, the guidelines are really clear. So the individuals giving this should at least nod to that. I'm giving you this advice. However, the safer sleep guidance says this, therefore, you need to err on caution. But again, there was there was no mention in any of the consultations of these are the guidelines, the safer sleep guidelines that you should be following for every sleep.

SPEAKER_02 13:56

And in terms of regulation and accountability, a lot of those influencers call themselves or use terms that give authority, an air of authority, a sleep expert, uh you know, a night nurse. Um do parents get understand that these titles don't mean that somebody's actually medically qualified or regulated?

SPEAKER_04 14:17

I think it's a it's a mixed picture. When we've spoken to parents, often they've said, we we didn't realize that having that title meant that you had no qualifications. So, for example, a maternity nurse, a fief, you'll know that does not mean you're a nurse. You are not registered with it with the NMC. And there was this awfully tragic case. Uh, there was an inquest just uh a few months ago that found a four-month-old baby had died whilst asleep in their cot after a maternity nurse had actually placed the baby to sleep on the front. The baby was was otherwise healthy. And the the family of that baby told the BBC that they, you know, they trusted this individual. They have the title nurse in their name, but they didn't have any qualifications or or training and and certainly didn't follow safer sleep guidelines. So all these titles are incredibly uh confusing for parents. You can wake up tomorrow, FIFA and call yourself uh infant, reflux, baby, sleep fairy, whatever you want, and there is no regulation. I could do the same, and ultimately it's the parents having to navigate. What does that actually mean?

SPEAKER_02 15:27

I know, yeah. And I guess we need to acknowledge that people that advertise themselves as sleep experts and um exploit the vulnerability of parents do so because both in Ireland and the UK, the NHS and the HSC, there's systematic failure in how we support parents in the postnatal period. And I know that we may give parents safe sleeping advice before they go home, but there is no plan B for those parents when things don't work out, and invariably they don't. So um from speaking to families, do you think this is also a story about the gaps in postnatal care?

SPEAKER_04 16:09

I mean, having sp uh spoken to many families, but also NHS professionals, it is clear that there is gaps in postnatal support for parents. We are we we're living in a society where many families don't have their village and then they can't access any support or the right support that they need from the NHS. And so the private support is filling a genuine gap for many, many, many families. And I I want to be clear that actually a lot of these people, individuals who are offering parents safe who are giving parents uh sleep support are doing so in a safe way, they are following the guidelines, and parents have told us that it's been a real lifeline for them. But what we we want to show from our investigation is that there is a hidden, dangerous side here to this industry.

SPEAKER_02 17:03

So you probably wouldn't be too surprised to hear that 50% of our listeners listen to our podcast between midnight and 6 a.m. And to to a tired parent that is listening to this, um what would you like them to take away from our chat?

SPEAKER_04 17:22

I think that two key things. There is support available for you from individuals who have done a lot of training and uh and learning in infant sleep and who are following guidelines who do give evidence-based advice. But be aware that there is a darker side of the industry as well, and there are individuals who are not following guidelines, and following that advice could could be unsafe for your family. Um so I think those are the the two key things that I'd like people, parents, to take away from this. We are not painting the entire industry with the same brush. Not all individuals providing uh sleep support are uh are contradicting NHS guidelines or contradicting the the Lullaby Trust guidelines, but there are a few that are doing that. And actually a third thing that I would say to parents is that when you are looking, if you if you are looking for safe for private support, then a large number of followers on social media, books, TV appearances does not equate to good advice. So do your research. And you know, before you pay money, you can ask individuals. Actually, could we have uh an initial chat, a free conversation where you can get a sense of uh their background and a sense of whether they are going to follow those safer sleep guidelines?

SPEAKER_02 18:52

I think that's fantastic advice. Divya, this has been a very informative conversation. Thank you so much for joining us on the Baby Tribe.

SPEAKER_04 18:59

Thank you for having me on, Afief. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 19:10

So Anne, what did you think of my conversation with Divya?

SPEAKER_01 19:14

I thought it was really good. She's clearly done a huge amount of work on this. Um and it's in line with what we talked about before, in terms of you know, very, very tired, vulnerable parents reaching out for any resource they can find to try and survive in a really, really tough time. Um, but it does kind of highlight, I suppose, the gap in support that's there. So they're they're reaching out for whatever they can find, and sometimes it's somebody who's exploiting that gap without the credentials and building a business from it.

SPEAKER_02 19:50

Yeah, so we did uh Divi and I actually have a chat almost four or five months ago when she was planning on doing something like this. And we were talking about various topics that um involve new parents, you know, sleep, feeding, medical advice, all of that. And the overall theme was the fact that as new parents you are desperate, vulnerable, sleep deprived, and people will unfortunately prey on that. And when it comes to sleep, we had a very good episode, if I do say so myself, about normal baby behaviour when it comes to sleep and how it's really difficult to consolidate sleep in the early newborn period.

SPEAKER_01 20:33

And they do it when they're ready to, and we can't push that on we just try and survive it.

SPEAKER_02 20:37

Yes, and I don't want to dwell on it because you guys should go back and listen to this um sleep episode. It was only a couple of weeks ago. But just to summarize, frequent waking in young babies is very common. The one thing that came across from the documentary on the BBC was the fact that when a baby hits around 9, 10, 11 weeks and they go through the so-called sleep regression, this is when parents are at the end of their tether.

SPEAKER_01 21:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:04

And this is the time where a lot of those so-called sleep experts actually capitalise on the situation.

SPEAKER_01 21:11

Now, some of the sleep experts are good.

SPEAKER_02 21:13

Yes. We've talked about the safe sleep basics before, but I think it's important that we mention this again to parents. Yeah. Okay. Back to sleep is really important.

SPEAKER_01 21:23

Like for back to sleep, it means babies need to be put to sleep on their back.

SPEAKER_02 21:27

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 21:28

And it fundamentally draw decre significantly decreases the risk of sudden in uh infant death syndrome.

SPEAKER_02 21:36

And it's interesting because a lot of parents sometimes come to me and say, the babies that are in the cuts in your NICU in the incubators, they are on their tummy.

SPEAKER_01 21:46

I did think about that actually when I was listening to it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:48

So why can't I put my baby on my tummy on their tummy in um at home? So big difference is we have continuous heart rate and saturation monitoring. So we have continuous monitoring of their heart rate and their breathing rate and the rest of their vitals.

SPEAKER_03 22:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:06

That's number one. Number two, we know that for preterm babies and specifically, developmentally and to help with their breathing, they actually do better on their tummy.

SPEAKER_01 22:16

Only in that specific scenario, though. They would not do better on their tummy if they didn't have continuous monitoring and a highly trained NICU nurse looking at them 24-7.

SPEAKER_02 22:27

Yes, because what do they do? They do stop breathing.

SPEAKER_01 22:30

Yes, because preterm babies forget to breathe sometimes.

SPEAKER_02 22:33

And they do drop their heart rate.

SPEAKER_01 22:34

Yes, they do. So it's it's an entirely different scenario. Yeah. Right? And for a normal term baby who's at home going down to sleep for a nap or for the night, hopefully, um, lying on their back.

SPEAKER_02 22:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:49

No argument.

SPEAKER_02 22:50

And uh the the key thing that I want to highlight is the minute we stop this continuous monitoring, the babies go on their back and stay on their back. Yeah, they don't go on their tummy anymore. Yeah. So the other thing that we need to emphasize is firm, flat, clear sleep space.

SPEAKER_01 23:03

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 23:04

No loose beddings, pillows, cut bumpers, towels, no matter how cute they are. Yeah. Nests or positioning props. There are a lot of these products that are out there at the moment that are like these little nests that the babies go into and prop the baby up, maybe cocoon them a little bit with a strap going over their arms to keep their arms tucked in. None of these are sleep safe. Next is baby ideally sleeps in the same room as parents for the first six months, avoid overheating, and really need to be extra cautious if you have your baby on a sofa if you have consumed alcohol, if you're taking any medications that may alter the consciousness or promote sedation, smoking is really a big risk factor for SIG as well, including secondhand smoke.

SPEAKER_01 23:50

Yeah. So remember But I hope that the newborn baby won't be having firsthand smoke.

SPEAKER_02 23:54

No, but what I meant is even if the mother was in the company of somebody that was smoking and then came back to your still a risk. That's still a big risk. Okay. Yes. So a safe cut is a boring cot, boring is good, Instagrammable is not a clinical safety standard.

SPEAKER_01 24:09

Fair.

SPEAKER_02 24:09

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 24:10

Um but getting back to the gaps.

SPEAKER_02 24:12

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 24:13

The other gap, and it's something I did do a presentation before and kind of healthcare literacy and kind of information informate patient information seeking. I think that a lot of our young parents are of a generation that need that access information and process information very differently to how generations before them have. And I think that we haven't caught up enough with what they need, and that's the also a gap that's been exploited.

SPEAKER_03 24:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:43

And it's about healthcare literacy and it's about adaptability in the information and having the information readily available in a format that people can trust.

SPEAKER_03 24:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:54

And I think that we're not good as healthcare professionals in putting ourselves out there and in being as accessible and adaptable potentially as that generation needs. So we're gonna have to find a way to fill the gap.

SPEAKER_02 25:08

Do I detect a hint that Anne may open up her social media page and go on Instagram?

SPEAKER_01 25:13

No, that's no. I'd uh no, I'd be a disaster. You know well I would. I'd need like an entire team of professionals to actually make that happen if you've one one can live, one can live in hope.

SPEAKER_02 25:28

Um, one of the things that also struck me was how they quickly went into the medical realm.

unknown 25:36

Right.

SPEAKER_01 25:37

Medicaise.

SPEAKER_02 25:38

Yes, exactly. There was a lot of medical overreach. So they started talking about reflux, camel protein allergy, tongue tile, ringomalacia, feeding problems. These are not within the realm of somebody that is not medically trained.

SPEAKER_01 25:50

No, well, I think people can speak about them. Like I think everyone should be able to be able to sit down and have a conversation about like the spectrum of what you can, you know, of why a baby may not be able to sleep from a pathological perspective. But the reality is that that would be exceedingly uncommon. They were doing this over the phone and banding these words around. Yes. And I understand that the purpose of it is to lend themselves this false credibility. Yes. Right? And and sound very professional. Yeah. And again, you're down to like if somebody says, oh, this is the cure 99% of the time, then you can assume that that's absolute BS because most the most frustrating thing as a doctor is that you say, Look, I can't be 100% certain. We can try the following things. And like that's why I think the easy fix is so tempting. I'm not saying that other people can't do this. They can, but it takes years and it takes credentialing and it takes experience and knowledge. But my whole point is that if people can't get a GP appointment or they go to the GP and the GP doesn't listen to them, or they go to a neonatologist or a pediatrician who doesn't listen to them, and they're at the end of their tether. Like we all have to get better at five piecing together the information. And it's not just because you're a doctor that you get to do it, it's because you're able to listen to the patients and you have the credentials and you've got the knowledge and you've got the experience. And it's hard to find that person sometimes.

SPEAKER_02 27:30

Let's talk about the breathing monitors because some of the people that were advocating unsafe sleep practices were recommending that you can use a breathing monitor to make unsafe sleep safer. For example, yes, put the baby on the tummy, but stick um an oxygen monitor or a heart rate monitor, like we do in the ICU.

SPEAKER_01 27:50

Yeah, but then what happens if they if the monitors go off? Who's gonna look after the baby? Like who's gonna support their airway? Who's gonna support their breathing? Do you have oxygen lying around at home? Do you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_02 28:01

But also these monitors do not, like you said, remove the hazards. No, they can falsely reassure sometimes because they can miss real events. And what I found is that they can actually keep um putting out false alarms and increase the anxiety in parents. And I've spoken to a lot of parents that used it for no particular medical reasons, not the medical grade ones, and they kept going off all the time and they became so anxious about their baby.

SPEAKER_03 28:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:28

The analogy I would I would do is a smoke alarm does not make lighting a bonfire in the kitchen safe.

SPEAKER_01 28:34

You know, that's a good one.

SPEAKER_02 28:35

Exactly. So you know, it's it's the same thing.

SPEAKER_01 28:37

And if the smoke alarm goes off all the time and there's no fire, you give up checking.

SPEAKER_02 28:42

Yeah. Before we finish up, I want to talk about the gaps because you did mention the gaps, and I think we need to acknowledge that a lot of parents do seek advice like this because there is very poor community support for those kind of situations.

SPEAKER_01 28:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:56

What I'm very cognizant of is that you may tell parents the safe sleeping advice, but you never give them a plan B if that does not work.

SPEAKER_01 29:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:07

And there isn't the support to be able to actually maybe help support parents through the difficult period initially. One big thing that I think we need to talk more openly about, and we spoke about this before, is you can safely co-sleep with your baby, especially if you're breastfeeding your baby, um, provided you adhere to very strict guidelines for safe co-sleeping.

SPEAKER_01 29:30

You get heat for saying that sometimes, don't you?

SPEAKER_02 29:32

I do, but um I think there's a lot of um jurisdictions that are now softening their stance on co-sleeping.

SPEAKER_01 29:40

Provided it's done safely.

SPEAKER_02 29:42

Absolutely. Um Canada, Australia, even the UK are changing their tone about safe co-sleeping, recognizing that a lot of parents do it and that you should do it safely. My issue with not acknowledging that parents safely co-sleep is the fact that at any given time, and this is based on UK data, 25% of parents co-sleep with their baby at any given night.

SPEAKER_01 30:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:07

And we did it.

SPEAKER_01 30:08

Yep. And sometimes you have to because you're literally just going to go insane if you don't get an hour a day of sleep.

SPEAKER_02 30:13

And if we don't actually openly educate parents on how to safely do it, that's true. That's when issues arises. That's when the risk arises. We have talked about this before. I will link in uh an article on how to safely co-sleep in the show notes.

SPEAKER_01 30:28

Please go and read that if you are considering and the recommendations as well for for um safe sleeping in general for infants.

SPEAKER_02 30:35

That article includes that as well. Yeah. And then just finally, I wanted to maybe talk about how can parents figure out if the person they're seeking sleep advice from is a legitimate expert.

SPEAKER_01 30:49

Are we back to the crap test?

SPEAKER_02 30:50

Well, it it is not just a crap test, but I think it's very important, and Divya alluded to this at the end of our conversation, is sometimes it can't be clear from their website or their Instagram page what their qualifications are. So there are a set of questions that parents can ask. You can you can book in an informal chat with them first and see. Ask what their qualifications are. And like I said, they don't have to be obviously a doctor or a nurse and or a lactation consultant.

SPEAKER_01 31:20

They could be a psychologist, they could be what are they like just credentials and experience.

SPEAKER_02 31:25

Yes, and but it is important to ask them directly if they follow safe sleeping guidance.

SPEAKER_01 31:32

Also, I would ask them, and I think going forward, the more I hear about all of these kind of things that come out, um, I would ask them to email you written recommendations for what they've said.

SPEAKER_02 31:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:47

And then they're accountable. And you'll like if they're giving you if they're getting you to do something that is really, really out of line that puts their business at risk, yeah, they'll think twice about doing that. And if they won't put it on paper, you cannot trust what they're doing.

SPEAKER_02 32:01

Yeah. And it's okay to ask if they are regulated by any professional body?

SPEAKER_01 32:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 32:05

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 32:06

Um like the vast majority. So outside of healthcare, yeah, where you have got like nurses, midwives, psychologists, um, doctors, like all of those are are regulated by statutory disciplinary bodies where they are completely held accountable by law for their standards of practice. And once you move into the soft stuff, right, where there's associations but they're not regulatory bodies. So for things like sleep experts, doulas, there's no regular le regulatory bodies for doulas, they are not held accountable by any professional body. So those kind of things, if you're getting medical advice from people who aren't who have no oversight from a professional perspective, then you have to really think twice about what you're getting.

SPEAKER_02 32:59

And I think it's important to figure out if and ask them directly if they are going to give advice on reflux, allergy, medications, feeding, or dairy exclusion, or if they suspect a medical problem, are they going to refer to an appropriate person?

SPEAKER_01 33:11

That's a very good question. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 33:12

In a similar fashion to me, if somebody comes to me with maybe breathing issues that I feel are laryngomalacia, I will refer them to a nose and throat surgeon.

SPEAKER_03 33:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 33:22

If a if a parent comes to me and we figure out that this is a significant cow milk protein allergy, I will refer to an allergist.

SPEAKER_01 33:29

Again, professional, professional body.

SPEAKER_02 33:31

Yes, exactly. But I also know my limits.

SPEAKER_01 33:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 33:34

And I will refer on if I can't deal with the problem or I'm not qualified to deal with the problem. And then finally, um make sure that their advice is age-appropriate because there's very little that can work with a newborn in terms of making them consolidate sleep. And we spoke about that before. And make sure that they're not promising guaranteed sleep because some people do. If anyone that you're talking to dismisses safe sleep guidance as optional, outdated, or fear-mongering, that is not confidence, it's a red flag. And I think you should try and avoid that person.

SPEAKER_01 34:05

And again, it is a choice, everybody has choice in all of this, but uh just be careful of the garden paths that you could be getting led down.

SPEAKER_02 34:15

Yeah, and and think I think we'll finish off on just acknowledging that parents often end up in these spaces because they are desperate for help.

SPEAKER_01 34:22

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 34:23

Yeah, desperation is real. So I just want to remind people that this episode is not a finger wag at tired mothers or fathers, it's actually the opposite. It's reminding you that you deserve advice that is safe.

SPEAKER_01 34:33

Yeah, and acknowledging the gaps and trying to figure out how we're going to fill them.

SPEAKER_02 34:36

Yes, and you deserve advice from people who know the limits of their expertise. Baby waking at night does not mean that you have failed. Your baby needing you does not mean something is wrong. And if someone offers you a solution that asks you to ignore safer sleep advice, it's not a shortcut, it's a warning sign. And remember, a boring cot, a baby on their back, and a parent who feels supported. That is the goal. Not perfection, not twelve hours of mythical unicorn sleep. Safety first, sleep second, Instagram last.

SPEAKER_03 35:07

Instagram last. Oh my god.

SPEAKER_02 35:10

Thank you very much. Talk to you next week.

SPEAKER_00 35:14

This show is part of the Headstuff Podcast Network, a hub for the creative and the curious. Shows are produced in association with Headstuff and the Podcast Studios Dublin. Find out more or become a member at Headstuff Podcasts.com.