The Baby Tribe
The Baby Tribe podcast is dedicated to providing parents and caregivers with the latest information and expert advice on maternal health and well-being during pregnancy and the postpartum period, in addition to infant health, nutrition, and growth. This podcast covers all the important topics to ensure both you and your little one get off to the best start. The podcast is hosted by the husband and wife duo, Professor Afif El-Khuffash, a neonatologist, paediatrician, and lactation consultant, and Doctor Anne Doherty, an obstetric anesthesiologist with expertise in maternal care. Both Anne and Afif work at the Rotunda Hospital in Dublin and together bring over 40 years of combined experience in newborn and maternal health. We share our knowledge and insights on everything from breastfeeding and formula feeding, to introducing solid foods, maternal recovery, and dealing with common health concerns for both mother and baby. We’ll have regular guests to share their expertise and experiences on various topics of interest, and we’ll also hear from real parents sharing their personal experiences and tips for raising healthy and happy families. Whether you're expecting your first child or navigating the postpartum period, this podcast is for you. Tune in each week for valuable information and practical advice to help you and your baby thrive. Please be sure to subscribe to our podcast, and follow us on Instagram! Thanks for joining us, and let’s continue this exciting journey together!
The Baby Tribe
125: Clare McKenna on Finding Your Version of Wellness (Without the Pressure)
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This show is part of the Head Stuff Podcast Network.
SPEAKER_03Welcome to the Baby Tribe. I'm your host, Afi Felke Fash, Neonatologist, Pediatrician, and Lactation Consultant, and my co-host is Anne Deharty, obstetric anesthesiologist. This episode of The Baby Tribe is sponsored by Happytummy.ie and Biogaia Ireland. Biogaia contains the probiotic Lactobacillus Ruteri, the only clinically proven probiotic to help infants with colic. They also have probiotics suitable for the whole family, like Biogaia Prodentis for Oral Health, one of my favorites. Let's get on with the show. Today's episode is about something that on paper sounds like it should make our lives better, but for a lot of parents has actually made things more complicated. Wellness. Because somewhere along the way, being a parent wasn't hard enough. Now you're expected to sleep well, eat perfectly, regulate your nervous system, stay active, be present, be calm, all while raising a baby who absolutely has no interest in your morning routine. And I think a lot of parents are sitting there wondering, am I doing this wrong? Or has this whole idea of wellness just become another layer of pressure? So today we are stripping it back. We are joined by Claire McKenna. Claire is a broadcaster, host of Alive and Kicking on NewStalk, health coach, and author of the new book Would You Be Well? Where she looks at how wellness has become overwhelming and how we can actually make it work in real life. Claire, you're very welcome to the Baby Tribe.
SPEAKER_01Thank you both for having me.
SPEAKER_03Before we get into it, I want to get something off my chest about broadcasters, specifically on NewStalk.
SPEAKER_01Oh go on.
SPEAKER_05I have no idea what he's going to say. So I just like to say this has nothing to do with me. I'm going to separate myself from this entirely. I'm braced and ready.
SPEAKER_03And what by you I mean almost all news broadcasters, when you're kind of coming up to the end of the interview, you say this phrase that maybe it's my background, where I'm from, that kind of irks me a little bit. Before I let you go. And I'm kind of going, I'm not your hostage. I can leave whenever I want. You know, I didn't realize that this was a hostage situation and my freedom is predicated on me answering the final question.
SPEAKER_05Well the studio door is locked to Fief, so she is.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, before I let you go, I always thought, yeah, say something else like.
SPEAKER_05You would think about that too. I do. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Is this an Irish thing?
SPEAKER_05That is a thing. Maybe it comes in a translation thing or else, I don't know.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, because you know, even at the end of a phone call, you'd say, Well, listen, I'll let you go. Yeah. And that's also, you know, I need to go. I don't want to talk about this anymore.
SPEAKER_03And even the phone call thing. Oh, I'll let you go now. Of course, it'll be able to clarify. Yeah, I'll let you go. It's like, excuse me, I can go whenever I want. Oh my god.
SPEAKER_05You get indignant. I do, yeah.
SPEAKER_03I do, I do, I do. So anyway.
SPEAKER_05I'm so going to use that phrase every single time I talk to you now.
SPEAKER_01And I think you should wind up this interview with just try it on, see how it feels.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, now Claire, before we'll see. We'll see how we can. So thank you so much for joining us. I have been a big fan. I've been following your journey and I'm an avid listener of Alive and Kicking, and I have to admit that at the start I was very sceptical about the whole wellness thing. Because it can drift into the overwhelm that you talked about so well. But then when I kept listening, I sort of realized that the term wellness can encompass so many different things and you take from it what you want. And a lot of it is actually evidence-based and does help. So I'd love to get into that.
SPEAKER_05So I'm here shaking my head because I have conversations with a FIF about very as various aspects of kind of wellness and kind of just various different things. Like the microbiome is a perfect example where and then when somebody like yourself talks about it, a fief suddenly goes, Oh my god, have you heard about? And I'd be like, Oh, yeah, it's a lot of work, all of that kind of stuff. And a fief will be like going, Hey Anne, there's this thing. I'm like, Oh sweet, mother of God. So yeah, please enlighten us and enlighten him as we chat. Because inevitably he will listen to you.
SPEAKER_03I know, but before that, I I'd love to maybe get a snapshot of Claire McKenna up to the beginning of her wellness journey. How did you start in broadcasting, first of all?
SPEAKER_01So I when I left school, I was always into performance at school. I always liked the you know musical in fourth year. Um I did drama, drama lessons, uh drama exams, and that was my favourite part of school and life at that time, and I loved the debate team. I was never a sporty kid. Uh so when I left school, theatre studies was exactly what I wanted to do. Um, but I moved out of home during that time. I was also fiercely independent, and I was paying my own way then at the end of college. So I got a bit of a crossroads. I'm all about the crossroads in life, where I thought, am I going to continue on this road of looking to seek an acting career? And I knew being able to pay my bills and rent was not going to be guaranteed with that. And it also made me really reflect that maybe I didn't love it enough because the real true actors are willing to work in any two-bit bob theatre that happens to turn into Hollywood. I just wanted to take a hop, skip, and jump to that and to the Abbey Theatre, um, you know, and so I started working in corporates then. So I started working in a marketing company, I did a marketing degree at night, and I was quite happy in that industry for a long time. Um, I made friends for life, I had great fun. But in one of the jobs that I worked in, they sent us on a lot of personal development courses, and that was really pivotal to me because now we talk about it a lot more than we would have. I mean, that's 25 years ago, and there was no social media. Ironically, it was an internet company, so that was literally just starting. So we didn't have Brene Brown coming into our phone, you know, uh in our little, you know, inspirational quotes and memes coming at us through social media or anything like that. So to be sent on these courses where they thought if you can believe it, you can achieve it, goal setting, what do you want from your life? So I sort of had that embedded in me. And that company actually closed down, and I was working as uh PA to a managing director of another marketing company, and he was great and I loved the job, and I did lots of exciting things with it, but also there was a lot of sitting around. So if he went off to the golf course or to a meeting where I wasn't required, I'd literally have to sit and wait for the phone to ring, and I just was bored. Um, and I thought, what do I want to do? So I thought, well, why don't I return to the performance? But instead of being somebody else, why don't I just be myself? And at that stage I was 24, so I was a little bit more sure of myself than I might have been at 1920. So I did uh postgrad in journalism um and left my job, started working in a restaurant, and started knocking on doors, and and that's how I got into radio and TV. Yeah.
SPEAKER_05I love that. I love that you had the self-awareness initially to say, I'm not ready to do the sacrifice for that job, but you're happy later on when you're 24, 25, to do the sacrifice for this job. So you knew you'd found your path. That's really nice.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and I think we should always have it in us and never think it's too late to change or to question what's working for me, what isn't, and what would I like. But I do think there's real freedom in your twenties. Like I was accepting jobs with no real idea of the company or the job, or I was just like, Yeah, I'll answer the phone there, yeah, I'll work there, yeah, I'll do that, you know, with no concept of time. Whereas now we're a bit like, do I have two years to spend working my way up through there? It becomes a you could become a bit more cautious with your time, yeah, I suppose.
SPEAKER_05And I think that's what your twenties are for. That's the freedom of it, and that's the beauty of it. Like I have an 18-year-old at home, and I when she was about 15, 16, I was like, you know, don't be worried. I know it's really hard because it's really hard being 15 and 16. But like knowing that, like she's gone into probably the most exciting phase of her life, like figuring out who she is, and then the freedoms of your twenties. It's just fabulous.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I was in town, I mean it's a couple of years ago now, but I was on a night out with friends, we'd been out for dinner, and I just crossed paths with somebody who looked to me to be 22, 23, and I could just see the glint in their eye that they had no idea where the night was going to take them. Whereas at my time of life, I know where the night's taking me, I know I'm going home to let the babysitter go, I know I'm going to bed. But you know when you have no idea whose house you'll end up or where it will go. I mean, yes, the 20 areas.
SPEAKER_03I'm just listening to this, yeah.
SPEAKER_05It was just the best though. Like going out just meant you were going out. It didn't mean like you were going to specific places, it just meant you were you were going out and you weren't coming home for a while.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We can still do that sometimes, but it takes a lot longer to recover.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. Months. The last time that happened to me, it took me about six weeks to recover. Seriously. And it was with friends I had in my twenties.
SPEAKER_03Okay, let's fast forward a few years because um we could do 20s reminiscent for quite a while, you know. Yeah, you've you've become a mum, you're a successful broadcaster, you have a lot of things on your plate, and you've decided to take up wellness. So, what prompted you to do that initially?
SPEAKER_01It just sort of happened, to be honest. So I was working in lifestyle and current affairs. So I was working on shows like Ireland AM, um, I was working in Spin doing a lunchtime talk show, and it was all about the day's topics and what people were thinking of them. And that was my favourite job. I loved it, I had so much fun there. Um, but as you say, in that time I got married, I got a mortgage, I had two babies, and spin is an 18 to 24s demographic mainly. Um, and it wasn't the kind of place where you necessarily were talking about having babies, you know, getting on the property ladder. So I knew my time there was done. Plus, um, at the time I had my second baby, I had been there for seven years, two years at the weekend and five years on that lunchtime talk show. And my co-host was moving on, Johnny. Um so again, it was one of those crossroads where I thought, am I going to go back and present with the with the new guy who was a good friend of mine, and it would have been lovely, but it would have been safe. Um so I met with one of my old bosses. He said, Why don't you get some experience in today FM? And I kind of jumped and I was there. So that took me out of the salaried job and I went freelance at that time. So that has had its pros and its cons. Um and I've been freelance since then, and she's now 12. So I've managed to make it through, but it's been white knuckle at times. Um, but I used to do a lot of cover, so that's kind of when you're when you're free, you can take two weeks of work here, and I found that really suited me with the kids.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_01That I wasn't always in this block of this is my my work time. Made childcare complicated, but I managed to patch it together, and eventually I got to a point where I'd only take work that meant I could be at home with the kids, and that's where Ireland I am was an absolute godsend. My husband would do the morning, send them to Montessori, I'd pick them up. We'll get back to where rest came in because there wasn't a lot of it at that time.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01But I had rang News Talk um to say, is there any cover going? Um and it's a small industry, so you know the boss I rang there had been my boss previously at Spin. Um, and he said, We're looking for somebody for a health and wellness show. And people had often said to me in the industry, you need to find your niche. And I always thought people were my niche, and they still are. That's my favorite part of my job, just conversations. And I think everybody has a story to tell. And for me to help them tell them is my niche. But I I remember thinking, why didn't I pitch a health and wellness show? Because I was always interested in it. I spoke about the personal development courses I went on, so I always loved that kind of aerial view of life and and you know, personal development. Um, and I loved the gym, I loved, you know, retreats, like you name it. And if I read that I should be drinking it or eating it, I did it. So I considered that to be very much into health and wellness. Okay. So when I got the job, I was really thrilled, but that started a real journey of self-exploration about health and wellness because I had to really question: am I really into health or am I just following fads and diets basically? And I also didn't really know what wellness meant. I had to really be honest with myself. This is seven years ago now. Um, what is the definition of wellness? Here I am at the helm of this health and wellness show. Um, what what it what does it even mean? So I decided to speak about it on the show, um, write about it in one of the Sunday papers, and that was the start of everything. And over what became a year, I did a complete 180 on focusing on how I looked, which was a big metric for me, to get lean, to get toned, to get strong, um, and focus more on what I felt. And I realised that wellness is very much individual, it doesn't have to be a certain thing or a certain way. And I had I was overwhelmed, you know, because of social media and the internet. I couldn't just follow eat less, move more. I was now trying to follow influers and ex experts. And I was jumping from intermittent fasting one week to paleo the next week, and I thought, look, people must also feel as overwhelmed as I do, and I really wanted to simplify it. So that's what made me then want to share that story with people, get a qualification as an integrative health coach in the areas of lifestyle medicine, and ultimately led to the book. So I kind of fell into it. The the job started the journey. I mean, sometimes I stand on stage, and even being here now talking as a wellness expert in a vertical commas, I'm like, how did I how did I get here? How did this happen? But it it did.
SPEAKER_05I love hearing you kind of describe what we all see and what we've all gone through. And I think women especially, now I know men obviously as well, are now targets in terms of wellness and fads and how the aesthetic of what a healthy man looks like. So men are actually being brought into that as well, but women traditionally we've been subjected to you know, um, what looks like you know, uh a well woman, a healthy woman, a strong woman, all that kind of stuff has varied wildly from decade to decade. So I love hearing you talk about like all of the different fads um and the fact that ultimately it comes down to potentially us knowing ourselves better. Um and I think that that's something that your book does really well, where it kind of goes through various bits and bobs and kind of people becoming very comfortable in who they are relative to the outside world, not what the outside world deems them to be, if you know what I mean. Um so I d I just wanted to say to a fief, because uh obviously I know him well, you've fallen victim of to a few fads over the years, haven't you?
SPEAKER_03I was just gonna say so and I remember the moment I was 39, I'm 48 now, or 47, we'll be 48 soon.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, hang on to that seven. Yeah, I'm forty-eight, we'll be forty-nine soon. So yeah.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_05That's why he looked at me as he said it with glee, with glee.
SPEAKER_03Um for um I used to be very athletic when I was young. I used to sprint, I was a champion sprinter, I was very fast, and then I did medicine, and that sort of fell at the wayside a little bit, and then I got it back, and then I got married and had kids, and we had two young kids very quickly. We were in Toronto doing our um fellowships, and between the ages yeah, between the ages of 30 until 39, zero exercise, like not even a bit. It was just way too much. And I remember looking at myself in the mirror when I was 39, and I saw this beer belly I don't drink, and I saw this dad bot in inverted commas, and it just gave me I looked really old and disheveled, and it was the look, and I have to admit, it was the look that said okay, you gotta change this. And I went to Anne and I was like, I'm getting a six back in six months.
SPEAKER_05He literally did, and I went to the five.
SPEAKER_03That was my age. Not to feel better, not to I was like, I want to get a six back in six months. And you know what? I got it. But I was miserable. He was so miserable.
SPEAKER_05It was cold, he was hungry.
SPEAKER_03I joined a gym and I went full on, like after nine years of doing nothing to like full on going five times a week. I carp counted, I did this, I did that, and yes, and I achieved my aesthetic goal, but I was so miserable. Yeah. Absolutely so miserable.
SPEAKER_01And I think it's really important that we talk about that because I think we can all relate to it, and we've all been in both situations at one point or another. But you know, where you were from 30 to 39 wasn't wellness. No. And where you were in those six months wasn't wellness either. It's somewhere in the middle, absolutely and it's somewhere much easier. And I think we often just oscillate between very strict, very restrictive, or letting all the wheels come off.
SPEAKER_05And what is wellness for one person isn't necessarily wellness for the next.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, but Claire, it took me and it took me another maybe seven or eight years to realise that.
SPEAKER_05Because I was telling him, but Cherry wasn't listening, because Claire McKenna was an extra.
SPEAKER_03And and I know this is gonna sound like I'm unplugging your book, but your book actually helped me take a step back and realize. Um because up until maybe even six months ago, I was going through this mental gymnastics of feeling guilty if I had an ice cream, or um uh you know, saying, Oh, I've gained too much weight because I've let myself go and having to go back, and trying to do the podcast and you know the two teenagers and stuff like that. But I'm finally now taking a step back and I think adopting a bit of wellness, yeah. And poor Anne have been trying to get me to do this for ages, but I found that your book really, really helped. The reason I'm saying this is that I I think men go through this as well. A hundred percent. You know, and it's something that needs to be spoken about. Like I now don't have a six pack and I don't care. But I do go to the gym, but I don't go to the gym five times a week. I go maybe two to three times when I can make it, and I don't feel guilty for missing a day. Like I used to if I missed a day. If I missed a day, I used to try and make up for it. Yeah. And you just sometimes you just fall into this mindset, don't you? And you sort of you were in that space for a while before changing, isn't that right?
SPEAKER_01And uh you we don't just fall into it, it's fed to us. I agree. It's it's everywhere from you know the media, even the health message, you know, is eat less, move more, the obesity crisis draining the health system. We demonize a certain body type, and you know, I think we're told no pain, no gain. So we start to get into it, and then the more that thought pattern becomes the way we think, it's very hard to step away from it. But I just am really passionate about trying to empower people to be kinder to themselves because otherwise it's not wellness. If you're beating yourself up for getting a 99 on a sunny day with your family, that isn't wellness.
SPEAKER_02I agree.
SPEAKER_01And if you're making yourself miserable to have a six-pack, and look, I did it myself in the lead up to my wedding. I went gung-ho because I had this endpoint, and my body fat dropped so low that yes, I had the body that I had aspired to for so long, but I didn't really want to meet friends if they said, Would you come out for dinner? Because I was afraid I'd break the routine. Uh, that's madness. Yeah. Um, my digestive system was all over the place. So, you know, what what's that doing to your system long term? That's not good. And I wasn't menstruating either. Um, and that's a real sign that not everything is is is right and not everything is working okay, but that just didn't really bother me. I was like, great, well, I can fit into this size gene, and you know, it's it's it's mad. It that should never be our motivator factor that we take on healthy endeavours because we hate ourselves. It has to be because we love ourselves. And I know it's really uncomfortable to say that, but it's it it has to be something that's kind.
SPEAKER_05So I'm 48 and I think it's taken me pretty much until the last couple of years, I'd say, in my life to actually understand that I will not have legs like some supermodel, and I am five foot two and a half, but the half is important to me. Um and I would just won't look like that, and I'm okay with that. And you know, my I think as women as well, like our weight will change by a few kilos in a week, depending on what stage of your hormone cycle you're at, or what stage of you know, anything else that's going on in your life is, and we have to be okay with that because that is what it is to be female, and you know, it's great that our bodies are that adaptive that it will actually change from week to week. Um, and there's so much that we have to just be comfortable with in order to recognize that that is what being healthy is.
SPEAKER_01And look, I I I did a radio interview um and I was sort of saying what we're saying. Here and the the man, the male presenter said to me, Um, yeah, I mean you let go of a lot of things as you get older, don't you? And I don't think he meant it to be patronizing, but it it sounded a little bit like that. But I think we could start this at any age. Like my daughter's 12 now. I don't allow her to talk negatively about her body. I catch her on it. If I see her look in the mirror and go, Ugh, I say, Don't do that. Yeah, yeah, don't do that. Or she'd say, This doesn't fit, or I remember her asking me, What's this part here? And you know, if you're listening, it's it's like a little bit of skin, you know, in the front of your show, at your armpit. Front of your armpit. And she said, What's this? And I said, It's it's skin. And she was like, Okay, and just moved on.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01But I think in generations previously, we'd say, Well, you could lose that, and you're actually, you know, you've had a lot of crap over the last little while, and yeah, you know, we're on the Easter holidays, so it's all those Easter eggs at the weekend. Like that language would have been used. That's not in my house anymore. We don't talk about that. I talk about body positivity or body neutrality, even. We don't talk about bodies.
SPEAKER_05And even just recognizing that everybody has those days where you just don't particularly like some aspect because for whatever reason your brain has been triggered in that way. And that just those days are hard. It's not necessarily reflective of reality, but they're just hard days, and then you move on and it's okay.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, you know. The the body topic is really interesting because I love that you said body neutrality, because I even think the term, and we were chatting about this earlier, and body positivity can also somehow have some negative connotations as well.
SPEAKER_05I find it so condescending sometimes. And it's like what you were saying about oh, you let certain things go when you get older. Like that's really oh. Um I I think that with body neutrality and the idea of we uh gain more perspectives as we live is a better way to look at things. Um, you know, your body does a huge amount of amazing things for you, it's it houses who you are, but it does you're not necessarily defined by it, you know, and it adapts and changes changes throughout your life the same as your experiences will adapt your mindset, and you'll change your mindset throughout your life as you gain more experience, and that's just life. But the expectations that were fed that you have to be a specific way at a specific stage and a specific time is just uh consumerism. Where we are just becoming a hinge point for a product, yeah, you know, and I just think we have to find a way to push back that isn't because you know, the idea of body positivity that in itself can become a product that is fed to you.
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SPEAKER_03Visit happytummy.ie to learn more and give your crew the gift of a happy tummy and a healthy smile. Hey there, Baby Tribe listeners. Did you know that we've got some amazing bonus material just for you? Baby Tribe Shorts is here. Quick evidence-based breakdown of all things science when it comes to Mum and Baby. You can find it as part of the Headstuff Podcast Network. You can subscribe to Headstuff Plus for as little as 5€ a month. We'll give you quick evidence-based takes on science behind maternal and infant health.
SPEAKER_04And the best part is it's just 5€ a month, which helps support us and supports Headstuff and all the incredible shows they produce.
SPEAKER_03You can find all the details on Headstuff Podcasts.com. We're all parents now, and we've all, I guess, come through the younger years of our children. And I think as a parent, when you are in the thick of it at the start, you've loss of control, you have loss of identity, no routines, you um have sleep disruption. And then maybe this is what happened in in reflection, when you almost kind of come at the other end. Wellness comes as one thing that you may be able to control very well or perceive that you can control. And then it becomes almost another pressure point or an or or a new pressure point as as a parent, because when your kids get older and they need you less and you have maybe a little bit more time, you cling on to something that you perceive that you can control, and then it becomes another unrealistic routine. And as you said, the social media doesn't help the um perfect parent expectations that you see, and a lot of it becomes guilt-driven rather than an aspiration to feel better. So how can the parents, I suppose, figure out for them what wellness is?
SPEAKER_01Well, I would often say there are chapters in our lives where wellness is going to take a back seat, and you know, if somebody is listening now and they have a newborn, like wellness is not going to be a top priority in the way we might think it is. It's going to be moments and it's going to be asking for support. That's what I would consider wellness at that time to be, because your whole world is now upside down physically, mentally, psychologically. Um, so there's a real recalibration going on. If I could go back to my newborn time, I would slow down way more than I did. The language when I had my babies 12 and 15 years ago was bounce back, bounce back in the body, get back to work, get back, and I was just so keen to get back to myself.
SPEAKER_05Go do this, go do that. Like you haven't slept more than three hours and twenty-four hours some days. Like it's the last thing you want to do is kind of get on somebody else's programme.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and now we're talking about, you know, the fourth trimester. I think that's lovely, the importance of just being and bonding with your baby and you know, being at home and and recovering because there wasn't really a focus on that. We also talk a lot more, and I think it's really positive about matrescence and the actual changes that are going on in the brain of the mother. Um, again, that's not something we talk about. You know, I know there's a lot of mothers who are kind of struggling with the recalibration completely understandably that are giving themselves a hard time and saying, why am I flying this? Because it's it's really new, it's really hard. So I don't think anyone should think that they need to try and get back to the gym or get to an hour's walk or, you know, are you meditating? But I do think if I knew then what I know now, I probably would have been putting in little moments into my day for myself. And one of the things I used to do when I had the babies, when I got to a point where they would go down even for a couple of hours in the evening, I get into the bath. I would just need that time where you know there was nobody asking anything of me, and it was just me and the bubble bath, and that would be a real moment. So that to me was my wellness. It might look different to other people. I know there's people who are new parents who already have a pet, a dog. So it might feel really normal for them to put the lead on the dog and just go. Sure, even going to the supermarket with no baby in the back was like bliss.
SPEAKER_03We used to fight. I'll do the shopping district. No, no, no, no. And you stay home and I will do the shopping.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. So those little moments are wellness. Um totally agree. And I remember being so tired. We used to go to this cafe close to us. Um, we probably had my son was a toddler and the baby. And I remember being so tired, and I remember just saying, like, because I was in that diet culture back then, and I remember saying, I'm not able for that. But then I went the other way. Like, I remember one day, and look, I don't regret it because I don't have any kind of food hang-ups anymore. I don't want any guilt with food. I've already said that. But I remember getting pancakes and scones, and you know, and just really trying to mind myself. I wish I had said, This is because you're so tired, you need sleep. I wish I was listening to the signals of what was really going on, and said to my husband, like that was that was a carbfest. I'm obviously exhausted, so I'm gonna go for an hour's sleep. I never really matched it all up, I just kind of kept going blindly. So that's where I'd say it comes in in parenting. And I think as well, I started to see the gym in a very different way when I became a parent. So I I don't know if it's the same for dads, but I I know in my head I'm always constantly, you know, because it is the stereotype that we give out if you're in a heterosexual relationship, that the woman will always say, Why are you walking past the stuff at the bottom of the stairs? Like it's obviously to go up the stairs because our whole lives are, and when I walk through there, I'll grab that, and while I'm up there, I'll grab that and I'll put that away, and then I'll do, you know. So to go to the gym and just be saying six, seven, eight became bliss to me because I didn't have to keep thinking about sterilizing bottles and must get nappies, and what about the nap? And how long was I doing that, and what breast did I feed on last? I would just be thinking about what was in the moment. So there were little whispers that I was getting, but I didn't recognise them. And I think it's going to be moments, and I think wellness for everybody should be little moments and little pockets.
SPEAKER_05It's finding even if it's two minutes to actually just have a quiet mind and that that moment of self-awareness where you can kind of check in with yourself. And I did not do that either. And I really, really wish I had. I wish I had a the self-awareness to know I needed to do it, and and put the kind of I suppose the narrative out there to inform me about it. Because I think I probably would have figured out a way to be kinder to myself and to feel less judgmental and to quiet the negative. Because we talked about this before, like, especially postpartum, you can have a lot of black and white thinking and and the social media narrative can really feed into that and and kind of tell you, like, oh, this isn't good enough, you need to be doing it this way, this is the only way to do it, there's no other way to do it, you know. Um and I really wish I'd had that moment of understanding where if I take three minutes and actually think, you know, what do I need and what do I honestly believe that my baby needs from me right now? And been able to kind of deal with that and quiet the noise, it would have been really helpful. But I do understand that that's really hard as well.
SPEAKER_01But that's such a good point, and we're always seeking the answers outside of ourselves in all areas, and particularly with parenting, instead of tuning in to ourselves and trusting our own instincts, because at the end of the day, we have to figure it out. And look, uh you know, anyone listening now, and all of us here, you go on the forums, you've got the books. Now it's you know all the information coming at you tenfold. But ultimately, even you take all of that, you have to distill it and figure it out yourself. I remember being quite frustrated that there wasn't a phone number I could ring to say, what do I do here?
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01How do I you know I even thought about parent line? Do you just ring and say the baby won't stop crying? What do I do? Because we're looking for for answers. Whereas if you just give yourself it's just scary.
SPEAKER_05It is just really scary when you've got a new person to look after, really, really is. Yeah. And nobody's really taught you. And we found that, and we'd like he was a pediatrician and we were terrified. So you know what I mean? Like when I think back and I'm like, um, what do people do? And they call granny or or they call granddad or they call the the auntie you always seem to know what to do, or you know, whoever has had kids for the reassurance, and that's really more important than googling, you know, I'm worried that I'm you know poisoning my child somehow or something, you know what I mean? Yeah. So um, yeah, no, I think those quiet few moments are the valuable bit, and it's not about you know walking an hour a day, it's not about all of those things because that's not wellness unless that's what you really want, and that's what quiet quiets the negative voices for you, yeah.
SPEAKER_03You know, so Claire, tell us what does wellness mean to you right now? What what do you do?
SPEAKER_01I've really worked out my blueprint. So, again, as we've said, it's different for everybody, but the things that work for me are movement. I have to have movement in my week. So I even went to my spin class on the way here. I risked having gym hair for our chat and brought dry shampoo in the car because I haven't managed to go Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday because we had the bank holiday and I was working the last couple of days, and I thought I can't let another day slip, and it's where I de-stress. It's a dark room, there's pumping music, and I absolutely love it. And I feel better in myself out the other side of the class, and it's not about losing weight or toning up or any of those things, they're just a kind of byproduct of it. So that's one really good one. Um I always start my morning slow. Again, this wasn't uh my newborn era or even toddler era where I had, you know, babies waking up at all hours of the morning just standing up in the cotton calling me. Um, it came at a time where I could take a slower morning. And I also think I've touched on it already, asking for support is really important in parenting. And it took me years to really ask my husband, my partner happens to be a man, so it's not like the stupid man. I really hate that, and I think it shows up a lot in parenting. Um I watched a brilliant um It's like Peppa Pig syndrome. Totally.
SPEAKER_05Daddy Pig was always poor Daddy Pig.
SPEAKER_01I watched Raising Chelsea, it's the two who were in Maiden Chelsea, and they've done um uh kind of a docuseries where they're they're having their first child. Jamie Lang and Sophie Haboo. And it was so interesting to watch when she brought the when they brought the baby home, she won't even really let him hold the baby. And when he is holding the baby and the baby is still grizzling or you know, taking a bit to settle, you you can see she's twitching, and often she's like, Look, I'm she would she actually apologised for it, but we're actually hardwired. It made me really kind of witness it happen and say, I remember that. So it's obviously, you know, in our DNA, back to the caveman times, that you know, we to not leave them in the cave and head back out pottering in the wild, we stayed there. So a lot of it is within us that we cannot help. Yeah, but obviously we don't have hunter-gatherers, we have a supermarket and it can even be delivered to the door if you want. So your hunter-gatherer is there, be they male or female, wanting to help you and support you. And I think we should allow that from the get-go. Um, so I have got to a point where I've felt I've earned the mornings because you know, I did the night feeds, I did the early mornings because breastfeeding happened to work for me. So now I'm like, okay, well, now you're doing the mornings now that we have older kids. I don't make the lunches, I leave that for my husband, and I will just light a candle in my room and I'll take half an hour for myself.
SPEAKER_03I was just gonna ask, what does a slow morning look like? So, what do you do?
SPEAKER_01Um, it changes. Now I'm kind of really gone down the breath work road. So it it it it's breath work now. It used to be a guided meditation, sometimes it was music, sometimes it's Instagram, yeah, but I never feel as good on those mornings. But it'll just depend. I'll really say, what do I fancy doing today? Sometimes if I'm exhausted, I'll just sleep. Um again, there's chapters in our lives, we just got a puppy. So now often, if my husband's gone to, you know, he's very cute, by the way. He is very cute, but he keeps growing. We were promised to Chihuahua terrier and he's a rescue and he just keeps growing and growing. I mean, we won't bring him back, but I'm like we don't know what side terrier that was. Exactly. I thought I was going to be able to hold him in one hand, but now he is lovely. But it has changed everything in our house. If my husband goes to for a swim in the morning, it means I'm getting up to the puppy. But ultimately, if I don't have that moment in my day to just be quiet and ease in, it doesn't, it doesn't flow as well. Um, so that is really important to me. And fun is really important to me. So, you know, booking the date night, keeping up with my friends, because I I still work for myself and I still am very much in the yes mode. So when people ask and opportunities come, I say yes, yes, yes. But I do have to stop and say, okay, where's the rest coming? Where's the fun coming? Where am I just being at home for a potter? That's really important to me because I I think even listening to that pot podcast I mentioned to you earlier, I think before we recorded, it was somebody who said they need to recharge by being by themselves.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_01And I'm that person. I love people, I'm a high-energy person, but I need to be by myself to recharge.
SPEAKER_03I think central to what you're describing, especially as a woman, is letting go of the guilt and being a little bit more selfish for yourself and and being okay with that and and expecting the partner to be okay with that as well.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, and I think you see the differences though, because especially in motherhood and early motherhood, remember we talked about how the female brain gets rewired and what you were talking about is that involuntary movement to respond. And we are actually wired to only respond through moving and going to the baby. Like your brain actually gets rewired in pregnancy and an early motherhood. So, like, you know, when somebody says to you, It's okay, I got the baby, and the baby is losing it with that person and they're trying to calm them, even if it is the dad, it's actually really hard not to stand up and take the baby. And it's okay to stand up and take the baby. Yeah. But if there's a moment where you can do those quiet times and the baby lets you, then you'll benefit.
SPEAKER_01And it's understanding that those recharging times make you better in the moment. Because I think, and I can only speak for women because I am a woman, and I'm sure it it it you know it happens to however you identify, but to kind of want to do it all and be it all, and think our way is the only way. Exactly. I know. And we just push and push and push and push without ever really stopping and truly listening to ourselves. And then while you're giving yourself a hard time about not having the legs of a supermodel, I mean, how how are we supposed to continue? So I've all of that is gone from my life. I don't have food rules, that's a huge place of of wellness for me. I eat to nourish myself, I eat really well, but with a whole different lens. Um, diet is gone, I don't do any of that, and I really don't give myself a hard time. I I'm I really I'm really kind to myself, I'm really good to myself. Totally on board. You know what I did in January?
SPEAKER_05I unjoined the gym. Right? And this is gonna sound wild, but that was my wellness because I didn't have the time to go and I was beating myself up, not doing it. And then I sat down and I said, you know, clearly this kind of a schedule and this kind of a program isn't working for me. So I stopped spending the money and I said, I'm gonna take a little bit of time and figure out what I want to do, what's sustainable for me. And now I'm looking at going back to like hot yoga and things that I actually find really help me feel well and help me move in a way that I find better. Yeah. So I've literally jumped off the treadmill. And look, I have to admit and I hate cardio, so it's perfect.
SPEAKER_03Had Anne done this a year ago, old Afif would have stressed so much about Anne just giving up on life. Yeah, she's unjoined the gym, she is spending an hour in bed at weekends just doom scrolling on Instagram, she's sending me all these reels um while I'm downstairs trying to work on the podcast, distracting me. She wants like coffee in bed, and I I would have freaked out about it. And using it. But now I realise that that is wellness.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, that is and reprogramming her life into a way that I need it to be now. And listen to it to yourself and on my terms. Yeah. So like later on today I'm going back looking at some hot yoga classes, potentially some reformer Pilates that I used to love. Um in a place that I knew worked for me in the past. So I'll have a look at that. But I think that you know, it's gonna look different all the time because again my brain is changing now. Yeah. Um and because I'm 48, so I'm going through an entirely different reprogramming. And all I have to say is, yeah, perimenopause is hard, but oh my god, it's so liberating in so many ways. So don't believe all the negative hype. It's really good. You get to reprogram things in your own way again. Um so yeah, I I think wellness has to be what you need it to be at that time in your life and it's 100% and it's different for everyone.
SPEAKER_01And I do talk about listening to yourself because we stop doing that, we keep looking for the answers outside. What do I eat? Where do I go? Okay, we're supposed to be going to the gym, like you say, and we just keep going. And I did the same myself. I was in a gym, I loved I loved the guys that did the classes who ran the gym. I loved the people that I was in the classes with, but just something was saying to me, this isn't suiting you anymore. I was kind of it was putting more cortisol into my system. I could tell, yeah, yeah, but I just kept ignoring it because I'm like, no, I have to work out and I I have to get strong. And you know, I'm a woman and we're losing our muscles, and you know, I was all about that. And I stopped listening to it for ages, and then I thought, no, come on. You have to listen, you have to practice what you preach. And like you. I stepped away from it. I started doing reformer Pilates. I was like, okay, because movement is the key. Whether it's a walk around the block, whether it's going to another another class, it's just moving. I felt so much better in myself. And then eventually I ended up finding another gym. I kind of had to make that break. But we are getting the messages all the time in our bodies about what we need, and we just don't listen. Yeah. And we don't allow it to evolve. We're like, this is who I am, this is what I do. And I think being able to check in with yourself. I talk in the book about introsception and all the signals our bodies are giving us. And you know, when you need to pee, pee. Like there's so many times where I put it off and say, No, I'll do that when I get there and drive for 45 minutes instead of just taking two minutes in the house. That is ridiculous. When you're thirsty, have a drink. When you're hungry, eat. Like start listening to your body, and then you'll start to hear the bigger things.
SPEAKER_05When you need to not go out, stay home. When you need to see your friends, make an appointment to see them, you know, but literally not on somebody else's schedule.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, no, we all know what we need. And I think you know, even as a any parents listening with a baby at home, you will have an idea.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um, and I think it's important that you also really ask for support. I think as well, we're fed not only that health message that I spoke about, but we're fed a lot of rom-coms and this idea that these relationships, if you have had a baby in a relationship, that they're supposed to guess what you need and you know, that they're not serving you if they don't exactly know what it is you need. And I think communication is really important because I think as well, you know, we tend to focus on success with our careers and focus on our careers, and we forget about everyday life and our relationships and our parenting and what successes they are in life, um, and to celebrate them and to celebrate the fact that you established a feeding routine and to celebrate the fact that you're you're figuring it out, to celebrate the fact that you went for a walk around the block rather than beating yourself up that it wasn't longer. And I think it can be such an atomic bomb in the middle of your relationship that me and my husband really had to find our way back. And I remember going for um couples therapy, and I think a lot of people think you go because there's something wrong, but I actually think it's a really positive part. Like I'm all for asking for support. And she gave us this exercise to do uh called DTO or daily temperature reading, and we basically had to ask each other five questions each, and it was like something you appreciated from that day. Uh a complaint with request for change, okay, uh, new information, any questions you might have, and your hopes, wishes, and dreams. So you would get to say things like, I really appreciate that you took the bins out this morning, because these are things that you might not say.
SPEAKER_05Yes.
SPEAKER_01And then you're like, Wow, okay, thank you. Complaint with request for change. I mean, it sounds really formulaic um and a bit and a bit weird and formal.
SPEAKER_05Some days you mightn't have a complaint, and some days you might have to.
SPEAKER_01But like it stopped you just saying in the moment, I'm a real, like, I don't let anything fester, everything is straight out, which can have its um We've gotten like that, but for a while we were quiet and it doesn't work well. But then you're letting it kind of seed, whereas at least with the daily temperature reading, you're like, that's my complaint, I'm gonna say it later. But you say it in a really calm way, and you're like, listen, you know the way you snapped at me, like it kind of hurt my feelings. I know you didn't mean it. You come at it really nicely. Yes. Now look, I talk for a living, so there's so many times where my husband would be saying his bit, and I just get really defensive and he's like, Claire, this is my turn. So like we're now angels. So in the case, but I did really feel that in those times, like I remember we were really just co-parenting together. We were like two flatmates, and we weren't even getting on that well. And this just brought us back together.
SPEAKER_03So, Anne, I really appreciated that you were on time this morning and left on time knowing that I would stress if we were even a little bit late. So, thank you for that.
SPEAKER_05You're welcome, Muffief.
SPEAKER_03There you go.
SPEAKER_01Sounded slightly passive aggressive. You can never win as a monkey, can you? Do you know what?
SPEAKER_05No, it's just she's very perceptive because I was a few minutes late, and that's what he's doing. He's actually digging me. We're on to you, we're on to you. That was a dig. Isn't that a dig?
SPEAKER_03It's banter, it's banter. I did have to cut my working out for by ten minutes because of her this morning, but you know what? It's okay. Let it go. Yeah. I just thought, yeah. Let it go. Exactly. Now, Claire, before we let you go and release you into the wild. Yes, and unshackle unshackle the um chains and everything.
SPEAKER_05The door there any minute.
SPEAKER_03Would you be well? Tell us about your book.
SPEAKER_01I did a TEDx talk. Um, there's two brilliant guys down in Trillee who organise a TEDx um every year, and one of them is a listener to the show, James, and he contacted me and said, 'Look, I think you'd be a great candidate. Will you enter this?' And obviously I was terrified, and but I gave it a go. And on the foot of that, it was all about when the health message gets unhealthy and everything we've spoken about here, and how we take all these things that are supposed to make us feel good and make us healthy, and it can make the opposite happen. Um, the publisher saw that and and came to me. So it was one of those opportunities that I I mean, I did want to do it. I I enjoy broadcasting in all different ways. I I I like to, you know, have a message and and and kind of get it out there. Um, and I really felt this one is an important one. So it is basically everything we've talked about. I did want it to be like a hug for people, I wanted it to be a smile. Every time I came back to what do I want from people in this, it was that they would put the book down at the end of it, or you know, maybe they'd come and go from it, but they would think at the end, okay, yeah, maybe I can do wellness. Now, the publisher's Hachette really pushed me to put a plan in place because originally I wanted it to be like a collection of you know, humorous and thought-provoking essays. I think everybody wants to write that book. If only yeah, and they said you keep talking about this plan and figuring out the plan for you, but you're not helping them. So there's questions at the end of every chapter, but I suppose that self-reflection piece is really important to me, and that daily check-in is one of my top tips to people. Like people always ask me, What's your number one wellness tip? I have two. One is find a GP that you can trust because they're your gateway to everything. And if you don't have one and you don't feel like you're being listened to and supported, find another one. I know that's easier said than done outside in um in outside of Dublin. Uh, but it is really important that we are advocates for ourselves and we have somebody we feel we can turn to. And the only way we can do that is if we get to know ourselves, and that's the daily check-in. How am I? How am I really? What do I need? And if your answers are, I'm exhausted, I'm irritable, what's led to that? Have you been eating well? Have you been sleeping well? Is work stressing you out? Are there conversations you can have? Like you, there's no magic wand, and there's no magic supplement that you're going to take that's going to fix it all, but you just take little steps and little tweaks to make life flow that little bit better. And that's what I really wanted the book to empower people to do. And I always say it's not just imposter syndrome that I'm, you know, not fully comfortable with being a wellness expert. I'm not some guru who's got it all figured out. My life is just as chaotic as everybody else's, you know. As I say, I'm putting dry shampoo in my hair on the way here in the car, and this top is over my gym gorge. My gym gear. Um, you know, I shoehorn in everything as best I can, but I figured out what works for me, and I never want people to listen to me. I'm trying to empower them to start listening more to themselves.
SPEAKER_03Well, I mean, I think this has been a fantastic conversation, and I think we figured it all out. There you go. A lot of parents are gonna find this extreme. Will we let her go? I'm not sure we let her go. I I don't know. We'll have to talk about it. Yeah. Is there anything that we haven't asked or anything you'd like to say before we finish up?
SPEAKER_01I just think, as you say, getting rid of that giving yourself a hard time and and and and negative spiral, I just don't think that we should feel guilty for putting ourselves first sometimes. And as a parent that can feel really difficult. As a mother, that can feel really difficult. Um, but taking time for yourself is so important, it makes you a better parent, and you're also modelling that behaviour for the kids. Um, there's a positive parenting expert I I interview a lot through work, Efiona Foreman, and she talks about modelling that for her kids who are now adults who have really good self-care in their life. So that's what you're modelling, along with giving them you know good manners. Why don't we teach them to take care of themselves? So by you saying, No, mom or dad are gonna go up to the room and we're gonna meditate for 15 minutes, imagine giving them that language from toddlers and it's just normal. No, mom's gonna go out and walk the block now just to have five minutes. I mean, I know it can be difficult to just pee on your own, I totally get that, but just modelling that time or stepping away or feeling yourself getting stressed and saying, So I'm going to do this, that is a gift that you're giving the next generation. So look at it that way sometimes too. Absolutely.
SPEAKER_03And for me, the biggest takeaway from today is that if your version of wellness is making you feel more stressed or worse, then it's not wellness, and you need to figure that out and move on to something else. You need a reset. I need a reset. Yeah. Thank you so much, Claire, for joining us on the Baby Tribe.
SPEAKER_01Thank you for having me.
SPEAKER_03The Baby Tribe is proudly sponsored by happy Tommy.ie, the exclusive distributor of Bayagaya probiotics, providing support for gut and oral health for the whole family.
SPEAKER_00This show is part of the Headstuff Podcast Network, a hub for the creative and the curious. Shows are produced in association with Headstuff and the Podcast Studios Dublin. Find out more or become a member at Headstuff Podcasts.com.