Brown People Reading
Each month we'll dive into a different book while we explore our challenges and triumphs through life and put the words on the page into practice. New episodes drop the 1st of every month!
Brown People Reading
What If The Race You Trained For Was Rigged From The Start - You Sound Like A White Girl by Julissa Arce
Hey Yall!
This month we sit with new beginnings and name the cost of fitting in, using Julissa Arce’s book to examine assimilation, representation, and cultural pride. Joy rises next to hard truths as we claim our names, challenge proximity to whiteness, and pick a read to start the new year strong.
• New jobs, creative projects, intentionality
• Emotional complexity and celebrating joy
• You Sound Like a White Girl overview and tone
• Who the book is for and why that matters
• Proximity to whiteness at work and in life
• Food, culture, and appropriation flashpoints
• Representation gaps and the checkbox problem
• Names, identity, and insisting on correct pronunciation
• Parenting and culturally rooted naming choices
• Next month’s pick: Think Like a Monk
• Recommendations across podcasts, YouTube, shows, books
We were doing a reread, but our first time talking about it on the pod, which is Think Like a Monk by Jay Shetty. The book that started it all.
Hey y'all, I'm Master.
SPEAKER_04:I'm Nadia. And this is from people reading. Hey Hasher.
SPEAKER_00:Hey Nadia, how you doing?
SPEAKER_04:I'm you know, I'm doing good.
SPEAKER_00:I thank you for pausing.
SPEAKER_04:Yes. I was like trying to give real answers. I started a new job next week or last week, I yes you did.
SPEAKER_00:Yes, you did. I'm so excited.
SPEAKER_04:So I am in that phase of like having new job jitters, a little bit of imposter syndrome. I'm just reminding myself like you got this job because you know how to do this work.
SPEAKER_00:Correct.
SPEAKER_04:And you just haven't been new at a company in six and a half years. So like in a couple months, you'll be fine.
SPEAKER_00:Also correct.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. But yeah, I so that part is great. Though I'm using more of my brain than I've been using because I feel like I've been autopilot because I did know how to do everything at my old job, and like I knew, you know, the processes and functions and blah, blah, blah. So like I'm really accessing more parts of my brain and it's leaving me a little bit tired, but it's great. Like, we need to exercise her.
SPEAKER_00:Yes.
SPEAKER_04:So that she stays sharp.
SPEAKER_00:I love that.
SPEAKER_04:So yeah, that's me. How are you?
SPEAKER_00:Um, you know, complicated and wonderful.
SPEAKER_03:Okay.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Um, I think that I've been in a better mood than I've been in in a very long time. Um, and it just seems to keep climbing, which is wonderful.
SPEAKER_04:Oh, I love that.
SPEAKER_00:And the complicated part is just the like, okay, so like, when's it all gonna blow up? You know, I know. I'm just I'm being honest, you know? Yeah. Um, but I'm trying every moment to, you know, continue to be like, yeah, but like, look how awesome everything is right now. I mean, right. You know, and like all of these horrible things can be happening, and I can be like in like experiencing joy.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, personally experiencing joy, and that's okay, and that's wonderful.
SPEAKER_00:And that might be part of the like, ooh, you know, the complicated feelings. Um, but you know, let's be real. The last couple years was a struggle book. So I I need to like celebrate this win. Yes. And I am good.
SPEAKER_04:I'm so glad.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:So how are you doing that? Like, what are you doing for yourself these days?
SPEAKER_00:Um, great question. So thank you.
SPEAKER_04:I ask it once a month. Okay. I'm kidding.
SPEAKER_00:That's fair, you do. Um, let's see. What have I been doing for myself lately? I will say one thing that I have done for myself that I will definitely talk about next time. Um, is that I took the month of December off of teaching um to create a project that I've wanted to create for a very long time.
SPEAKER_03:Yay! Let's go.
SPEAKER_00:That starts on Monday. And, you know, I'm people are asking me how like they're like, congratulations, how are you feeling? And it's like nervous yet excited.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. New things, new beginnings do that to us.
SPEAKER_00:And I did just pull some, I did just pull some cards today from that were pretty much telling me, you know, not only do you need to like step into this moment of power and like do the things that like are meant for you, you know, which is such a like whatever answer. That is my like boil down of what it was saying. Um, but it was also saying do it with intention, don't just do it for like, as the youth say, do it for the clicks. Right. Maybe they don't say that anymore.
unknown:I don't know.
SPEAKER_04:I don't I don't know that they've ever said do it for the clicks.
SPEAKER_00:Or for the likes. I don't know.
SPEAKER_04:Maybe for the likes.
SPEAKER_00:Grandpa's on the radio.
SPEAKER_04:You're on a roll. You did ask me earlier if I was gonna eat before this. I'm like, at 5 p.m. No, grandpa.
SPEAKER_00:Come for me. You know, I'm gonna be experiencing a first number change coming up here soon. So Lordy, Lordy. You know, my joints are ending. Here we go. I know I said that to you for so long. For so long. Now that my turn is coming, I'm just kind of like, you know, like you don't like it, do you?
SPEAKER_01:Lordy, Lordy.
SPEAKER_04:Anyway, um Okay, so two things before we pivot, but uh to me, but I love that we're both going through new beginnings at the same time.
SPEAKER_00:Yes.
SPEAKER_04:And I love that you pulled cards that were very positive and hopefully made you feel reassured and validated in this choice. I am not a person that pulls cards, but I was at a friend's coven party around Halloween.
SPEAKER_00:You're what now?
SPEAKER_04:I had a friend who had a coven party.
SPEAKER_00:Okay.
SPEAKER_04:Right around Halloween.
SPEAKER_00:Sorry.
SPEAKER_04:That is disrespectful. That is disrespect.
SPEAKER_00:No, okay. That that laugh wasn't because of no, it was. I'm sorry. Sorry. Continue. Oh my no, that was rude of me. Listen, you know I'm like an earthly witch.
SPEAKER_04:I know.
SPEAKER_00:I love it.
SPEAKER_04:So at this party, multiple women had brought different decks, and you could just choose whichever one called to you, and you know, figure out what kind of um draw you wanted to do, or I don't even know the verbiage, to be honest with you. But I did a three-card draw.
SPEAKER_03:Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_04:And this was right before I put in my notice, like right before, you know, starting the new job. And the three cards I picked were all about abundance, growth, prosperity, and just like they were all just like positive with those kinds of themes. And I was like, that made me feel really good.
SPEAKER_00:Um, you know, a lot of the things that I've been listening to lately, a lot of the people and like whatever the readings and whatnot um for us um have been saying the same thing. So I'm kind of like, and we're experiencing it together. I love this.
SPEAKER_02:I love that.
SPEAKER_00:Um, okay, so back to you. Um what have you been doing for yourself lately?
SPEAKER_04:What have I been doing for myself? Oh.
SPEAKER_00:What haven't you been doing for yourself?
SPEAKER_04:I know. I've been very leaning into the holiday spirit already.
SPEAKER_00:Of course.
SPEAKER_04:I showed up to Asher's with my holiday purse, which looks like a wrapped gift box. And inside is a holiday wallet that looks like a little store that's been decorated for Christmas. My Christmas decorations are up at the apartment. I have not put up my tree yet. That will come tomorrow.
SPEAKER_00:Okay.
SPEAKER_04:Uh, or maybe Thursday on Thanksgiving. We'll see. But yeah, just like really trying to spread out my Christmas activities and fully enjoy this season while I can because it's one of my favorite times of year. It is probably my favorite time of year.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, okay. And I feel like it comes and goes.
SPEAKER_04:I do. And I feel like it just comes and goes so quick that I'm trying to just really draw it out, enjoy it.
SPEAKER_00:I love that.
SPEAKER_04:Thank you.
SPEAKER_00:Um, you are also the person that will wear four-leaf clover headbang that is banging around on a little like metal coily. Okay. So, like, I just want to say to everybody that is listening that while I love this for you, please don't pretend like you don't go 100% for every single holiday.
SPEAKER_02:I love to celebrate holidays and be seasonal. But Christmas specifically.
SPEAKER_00:I do, yes, you do really love Christmas.
SPEAKER_04:Asther and I and two of our friends went to go see the Christmas tree lighting here in Chicago. Oh boy. It was too nuts. We saw it after the fact. It was beautiful. When I was getting ready to go, I debated putting on a Christmas sweater. And I have earmuffs that are antlers. I thought about you. I was like, he is so lucky it's not cold enough for me to wear these.
SPEAKER_00:I want I would put them on. Get y'all a friend that tells you the truth. Okay. That says, I love this for you and girl.
SPEAKER_04:But so many people that night were dressed for the theme. So you know what? I would not have been in a place.
SPEAKER_00:Homeboy that sat next to us in the restaurant was in full on Christmas jammies.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, like a onesie. A Grinch onesie or something. It wasn't a onesie.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, okay. Um, I think you can get arrested for that. No, I'm just kidding. Oh my gosh. Let's get, please, let's get to the book.
SPEAKER_04:Okay. Okay.
SPEAKER_00:Today is clearly a day. I love it.
SPEAKER_04:Oh my gosh. Okay, so today we are talking to you guys about You Sound Like a White Girl. A book by Julisa Nazale Arce Raya. You guys, I did my best. We tried to listen to YouTube before I said her name so that I could get it right.
SPEAKER_00:I thought you did the best that you could.
SPEAKER_04:Thank you.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Please show grace. So you sound like a white girl.
SPEAKER_00:Truly.
SPEAKER_04:Asher, what are your immediate thoughts about this book?
SPEAKER_00:Immediate thoughts about this book. I think I have complicated thoughts. Okay, I liked the book. Let me sorry. Um I it sounds like it's worse than it is. I I just wanted to say more than I liked the book.
SPEAKER_03:Okay.
SPEAKER_00:Um I feel like it definitely took me on a journey, right? Of emotions, um, of thoughts. Yeah. Um new information, right? Um, and I I feel like I can't speak to the tone of it because the tone of it was not directly for me. I think. Yeah. You know what I mean? So like I'm reading it as an outsider's a bad choice of words for especially this book. But I think I'm reading I'm reading it as a person of non-experience.
SPEAKER_03:Okay. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:You know what I mean? So like I I think it was me trying to digest a lot of information while having my own experience, similar experience, right, riding through my mind while I'm reading it. Um, so it was it was challenging. It was definitely not a book that I could just read for a long period of time. I needed to like split it up.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, I also needed to split it up. Even though it's not a particularly long book, it is heavy. The information that Julissa Jolisa is um sharing, both with her lived experiences being a Mexican-American and being undocumented for so long and the things that she experienced growing up in Texas. Um, but then also the stats and the information and history that she provided. Like you said, it was a lot of new information. I had never heard about that, which is like not shocking that we were never taught that history. Um, but it just was a heavier raid.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and what one I will say, one of the many things that I really enjoyed about the book was that it wasn't, it was very inclusive in the sense that like it wasn't like, oh, look at us. This is this is my struggle, and nobody understands it, right? Right. It was always tied back to I know that I'm not the only one person that has experienced this in a certain way. And I want to make sure you know that I am telling my story and I need you to hear all of it, and I am very aware of not only aware of the struggles of other people, right? But I want to talk to you about how they intersect with one another.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And I thought that was really, really well done.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, she did excuse me. I feel like there were multiple things that she wrote that I was like, that's a mic drop. Like she was really good at adding those to the end of chapters, and just you know, it it felt natural and organic, and not like she was trying to make the mic drops. It just like it is what it is.
SPEAKER_00:Right. And we'll talk about it a little late a little later, but I just sometimes I felt like I was getting yelled at.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, fair. Um, but to get us started Well, how did you feel about that? Oh, um, well, no, I said.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, I thought, okay, okay.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Great.
SPEAKER_04:To to get us started, I just want to read the first page of the introduction because this to me, again, really set the tone, sort of, for the book. Um, but also it was the first and to me like biggest mic drop. And I I loved it, so I just wanted to share for those of you that haven't read it. So it's the introduction, and it's called The Case for Rejecting Assimilation. A runner ties her shoelaces and is ready for the race. She's prepared to run the 400-meter dash. As the starting pistol goes off, she's informed that her race is now the 400 meter meter hurdle. She's stunned but determined. She clears the first hurdle barely. She is not trained for this race. It slows her down, but she resumes her stride. She struggles to clear the second hurdle. By the time she gets to the next hurdle, she's starting at the hang of this race. She never knew she'd be running. There is a hint of smile on her face because she's finally catching up. Suddenly, the ground is slick with water beneath her feet. She looks around, but it is only in her lane. How is that possible? She has no time to ponder such mysteries, for the next hurdle is here. She clears it. Gravel is thrown in her lane and she loses her footing. But she is strong and agile, and with one foot in front of the other, she clears the remaining six hurdles. As she's about to run through the finish line ribbon, she's told that her race isn't over. She must complete another lap around the track, and when she's done, she can claim her spot on the podium. She's exhausted, but she must finish, so off she goes to run her final lap. She finishes in record time. Along the way, people cheer and tell her what an amazing job she's doing. As she puts her arms up in celebration, she's once again informed that her race continues. Frustrated and out of breath, she goes around the track once more. She wants desperately to be off the track and on the podium. By the tenth time she's gone around the track, she begins to wonder if someone like her is meant to finish the race. None of the runners who now who now have medals around their neck look like her. She presses on. After years of running around and around, buying new kicks, getting new coaches, inching closer, she falls, chasing a finish line that she was never going to reach. She picks herself up, looks at her bloody knees and hands, and wonders what the hell she's doing. Finally, one day she stops running, walks off the track, and goes in search of something better, something more truthful, something closer to freedom.
SPEAKER_00:That's what it's like.
SPEAKER_04:That to me is just like really encapsulates what it's like to be a person of color in this country.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, truly. Um and it just seems to be um you okay? Yeah. Okay. Just looked like you were getting a little teary. Oh no. Okay. Um, you know, it's frustrating, and I think I've talked about this in a different type of way before. Where it's just, you know, you do everything they tell you you're supposed to do. And then the moment you do that, they say, Oh, and then it's now it's this thing. And now you have to do this. Oh, but now you have to get a master's degree. Oh, but now you need experience, and then they want to tell you you have to pay your dues. And it's just like, how many dues do I owe?
SPEAKER_04:Right. You know, does everyone owe the same amount? Because it doesn't feel like it.
SPEAKER_00:It sure doesn't. Exactly. You know. Um yeah. That's what it is.
SPEAKER_04:Right. And I won't say that my struggles are the same as yours or the same as Julisa's. But I will say, like, I've definitely experienced this even in the workplace. Like, I may be able to get jobs, and like I've done a great job of getting new jobs, or like whatever it is. I've consistently been passed over for promotions despite having overperformed in every review that I've had and watched my white counterparts get those roles or get jobs created for them, or all sorts of things where I continue to get bypassed or just told to stay basically in my lane. It's such bullshit.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Um, I too have always been able to get a job, and you know, like I am somebody that I've always said I'm only gonna work or I'm only going to have jobs that I want that I enjoy. And you know, it's made it a little harder to do the capitalism climb, you know. Um but I've always done it. And in that same sentence, I've always been the helper. I've always been the one who creates all of these things, but they're never for my accolades and my, you know, my name to be on the plaque.
SPEAKER_04:I'm always the one that's getting things done, but not being able to run it.
SPEAKER_00:Right. Um, and you know, now that we're talking about this, I this is one of the biggest conversations I had in one of my early therapy sessions. And I was just thinking to myself, you know, why am I always trying to like make everything that I do the biggest thing ever? And you know, it's gotta succeed, and it's gotta everybody's gotta have their eyes on it. And that's it. You know, like that's the conversation, and you know, we'll bring that back around to proximity to whiteness a little bit later. Um, but I wanna go back to talking about the book specifically for a second.
SPEAKER_01:Okay.
SPEAKER_00:Um especially when you know, I was telling you how I felt about the book, and it kind of brought brings up this question of who is the book for?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Right. Um, I had a conversation while I was reading this book, and I was like, I don't understand who Julisa is writing to, you know. Um and Jalisa writes in Spanish and doesn't translate it. Yeah, I really like that as well. And then it felt like some of those angry moments, I felt like you were kind of uh it was kind of preaching to the choir. You know? Um, and then I read Oh Winch. She gave who was the woman that she met and she gave a copy of her book to Anne Coulter. Anne Coulter. So when she gave the copy to Anne Coulter and she made the snipe comment, I was like, wait, so are you trying to write this for white people to get it? You know? And I was just very confused. And then in the and this is what I mean by it took me on a very mental journey, right? So then in chapter six, um, she says, as a writer, I am constantly asked to make my stories more relevant, but relevant to whom? To make them more appealing to a mainstream audience. And I know that's not coded language for larger, it's coded language for a white audience, to make them less angry, but it's not anger in my words, it's the truth, or it is truth. And I was like, you know what? You are correct. Yes. Right? Just because the facts are hard to read doesn't make it less fact. Absolutely. And it really, I was like, wow, that was a moment of clarity for me. And like, thank you for explaining it. I appreciate that, you know.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, I agree. Because I feel like, again, like you said, for people of color not having gone through her exact experience, um, there were a lot of moments that, yeah, absolutely. It's like, I I definitely relate to what she's saying. Again, there was so much history that we hadn't learned that she shared, and that was really interesting to hear more about. I think it could be for anybody because there are plenty of people who will relate exactly to what she's saying, and then there are plenty of people that won't, but could learn something from it.
SPEAKER_00:Right. And it's, I think, you know, we were talking about the tone, right? And kind of talking about that in comparison to Cooley Woman. Right. Um and you were saying that it's this is a lived experience, her lived experience. Yeah. Versus Cooley Woman. Um, you say it. You say it.
SPEAKER_04:Cool Cooley Woman was more of like a historical sort of like journey, like by a per like a third person. Or not even a third person, but just by like somebody that hadn't gone on that voyage, who hadn't dealt with all of those things that our ancestors did when they went from India and Africa to the Caribbean. Um, so she was doing it more of like a research and sort of loosely tying it back to her, but really it was more research and like just historical fiction or historical nonfiction, I guess. Like it seemed like a mix between those two. Yeah. Coleywoman. This was her stating facts and stating her lived experience as a person who grew up in this country on doc undocumented for a long time, but went to college, got a job on Wall Street before becoming documented.
SPEAKER_00:Right.
SPEAKER_04:Um, and it was just all the things that she experienced on both sides. It it was really, really interesting.
SPEAKER_00:And it reads, you know, I read it as ang I read it as anger. I did. Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_04:There were definitely multiple parts where she was angry.
SPEAKER_00:And uh after reading the entire book, I think to myself, yeah, well, it hits different when it's not a hundred years ago.
SPEAKER_04:Right. When it's the life you have lived.
SPEAKER_00:Right. And I only I can imagine that that's how it sounds when I say my lived experience to people, you know? Does and that's the whole problem.
SPEAKER_02:Right.
SPEAKER_00:I think, you know. Um, so again, like I said, that was a very big moment of clarity for me of like, okay, I under I see that.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. You know, something that I thought was interesting when she talks about working on Wall Street at Goldman Sachs and trying to relate to her co-workers who all had very different upbringings from her and did things like go skiing. Uh, and she had never done anything like that.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:When she finally had, but it wasn't some big name fancy place that they had all gone, she was just like so proud of herself for having done something that they had done and wanting to share it. And then when she did, they were just like, Oh, yeah, that didn't you think that one kind of sucked? Like that one sound as good as you know, and they start listing some other fancy place, and she was just like, It's never enough.
SPEAKER_00:Right. I um similar to that, I've had moments where friends will talk about how broke they are, and then I haven't seen, I'm not like stalking people's ATM or anything, but like, you know, you glance over and you happen to see, and both two times I'm speaking about in particular, both times that person had thousands of dollars in their bank account, and I'm over here with girl, I wish I had a comma.
SPEAKER_04:Mm-hmm. Like, we are not on the same place.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and the first time I was like, girl, I wish I had two numbers in front of the decimal point.
unknown:Right.
SPEAKER_00:Because it was college.
SPEAKER_03:Right.
SPEAKER_00:That shit was 232. You know? Like, you remember those days where you're like okay, I'm gonna get this 300 little dollar uh the$300 little check, uh, and that's supposed to last me for the month for work study.
SPEAKER_04:Oh my god.
SPEAKER_00:I just like I don't know how. I mean, I do know how gas was$120. Gosh, it was so cheap. It was so cheap.
SPEAKER_01:I know. I know. Here we go.
SPEAKER_00:Um, yeah, so I just that was one of the big things that I took away from the book was who is the book for? Yeah. And the answer is the book is for Julisa.
SPEAKER_01:Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_00:And whoever resonates resonates. Right. And I love that.
SPEAKER_04:Yep, I do too.
SPEAKER_00:Um, so a big part of this book, right? She starts talking um about the things that she did growing up to try and assimilate to quote unquote American culture, which is white American culture, end quotes. Right. Um so I just wanted to kind of chat a little bit about proximity to whiteness in general, right? Um I will speak for myself first and then I'll never mind. Um I remember growing up truly hearing people say that I'm one of the good ones.
SPEAKER_04:Ew.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Like, oh, but you're not like them. Um and the worst part was I I wasn't like the people that they were talking about because that wasn't my experience or my mother's experience. You know what I mean? Like my mother grew up completely different than the people, you know, the people that he's talking about.
SPEAKER_03:Right.
SPEAKER_00:So that was never gonna be my experience.
SPEAKER_03:Right.
SPEAKER_00:You know? Um and oh, the way that I talk, the way that I like dress, the way that I, you know, my grades, my whatever, whatever, whatever. You know? Um and I used to eat that shit up.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:I did. And but I say to young me, what were you supposed to do?
SPEAKER_03:Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_00:I didn't know.
SPEAKER_03:Right.
SPEAKER_00:You know, and I I thought these were compliments. And you know, or the where are you from? You know? So like I I look different, and I thought like I was like celebrating that difference, and it's like that's I let me rephrase that. I was celebrating that difference, and that is not the intention that that person had when speaking to me. Yeah. And I didn't see that. Um so for me personally in 2020, after you know, uh the Black Lives Mov uh Matter movement started, uh and I was hearing these words coming out of the people that I grew up with and how gross and disgusting they were and just blatant. I will never forget somebody telling me the fact that only 10 unarmed black men died last uh the the previous year by police. And luckily somebody stepped in and was like, only what do you mean only? And that was the moment where I was like, Whoa, no, I mean there was more, but we don't have to like go down that road. You know, it's moments like that where I was was like, I will never go back to that place again. Yeah, I have completely and my views on you know my own personal race theory was already shifting at that point, but that was a hard pivot for me, and then I became embarrassed of my young self for all of those moments where I quote unquote celebrated those differences, you know.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, I mean, I look back on younger Nadia and I wish that she had the confidence and the pride in her culture that the Nadia sitting here now has, but it was hard when, again, I was the only one in my school other than my sister that was Indo-Caribbean, so they never knew what I was or how to characterize me, and they wanted to, and like I don't know what to tell them.
SPEAKER_01:Right.
SPEAKER_04:Um, I wanted my hair to be straight because it's naturally very wavy or curly once I put product in it. I would sometimes try to straighten it, and then I gave up on that. And I remember some guy making fun of the product in my hair and me just sort of laughing it off because like I didn't know what else to say. And I was like a freshman in high school going to a it wasn't predominantly white. I would say it was like pretty evenly white and black, and but then the third ethnicity was very clearly Latin, Latinx, and I was like just truly by myself. It just was like uncomfortable. I didn't know how to stand up for myself, I didn't know what to say. I didn't I felt like they were right, honestly, because they were white, and I was just like, I don't, I don't know. Like I wish I would go to cousins' weddings or you know, family weddings, and I would have henna that's like fading, and I would be like embarrassed of it. Like all of these things that I'm like, why? They love that shit. Yeah, they gobble up my culture or our cultures so much, but when we're children, they pick on all the differences, and it's so hard.
SPEAKER_00:Well, I also I don't think it's just um narrowed in on children. I also think it's well, I think it's everyone, and I think at that time, these things were not like, oh, everybody's gotta try it, everybody's gotta have it. I think that sometimes art we can lose the cutoff in history where Indian food became popular, yeah. Or like, you know, everybody was listening to like, you know, black and brown music or like whatever.
SPEAKER_04:A war girl loves henna.
SPEAKER_00:I love it, right? But I even think about, and I'm sure you've gotten this unless nobody ever came to your house, but like the your house smells funny.
SPEAKER_04:Oh yeah. My sister and I used to hate when my mom made curry on the weekends and we were going out, we're like, can you cook it early so that once we shower it won't stick because like it sticks in your hair, it can stick to your clothes, and we're like, please, and like we liked eating it, but we just didn't want to smell like it when we were leaving because yeah, everyone made fun of you.
SPEAKER_00:Right, and now you got uh, you know, recipes, these I know you're making curry doing tofu tika masala.
SPEAKER_04:I know, and they right, like and they're cauliflower, look how diverse I am. I know how to make Indian food.
SPEAKER_00:This is how you grill paneer cheese.
SPEAKER_04:Get out of my face, girl.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, you know, it it you know what I will say, it is frustrating, and I have to remember it's a system issue. Yes, it's not an individual issue, correct? So, like I can't blame you a hundred percent for the things that you were taught the same way that I can't blame the old me for the things that he put up with.
SPEAKER_04:Same. I love that. Like, we have to forgive ourselves. We were doing our best, right?
SPEAKER_00:And I think it goes back to the tone of this book. It's not about fixing things for white people, it's about honoring who you are.
SPEAKER_04:Yes. Um, while we're just quickly on the topic of food, I don't know about you, but when I read the part where she was just talking about how white people love tacos.
SPEAKER_01:Yes.
SPEAKER_04:And then Tucker Carlson goes on to his stupid show and he's like, um, tacos are American. I wanted to throw my book and scream.
SPEAKER_00:That was I was thinking about that part of the book the whole time we were talking about this.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
unknown:Oh my god.
SPEAKER_04:I was like, that's not even my cultural food, but like, are you for real?
SPEAKER_00:I'm not gonna lie to you. I had to reread that a couple times because I was like, no, that's not what I just read.
SPEAKER_02:In what world?
SPEAKER_00:In this one, girl.
SPEAKER_02:It's the caucassity.
SPEAKER_00:In this one, it okay, pivot. Let's talk about Caucassity.
SPEAKER_02:Okay.
SPEAKER_00:So my motto is I I am searching for my Caucassity.
SPEAKER_02:Okay.
SPEAKER_00:I I truly am. And like it gets a laugh every time, but I am dead serious because I would love to walk into a room and be like, nobody can touch me.
SPEAKER_04:Yep.
SPEAKER_00:And truly believe and feel that way.
SPEAKER_04:Yes. There are two areas where I mean, I would love that kind of confidence always, but there are two areas specifically where I would like to be, I would like to have more caucassity. One is at work, not particularly this new job, just in general, to not be that person that gets pushed over into doing all the work and then never get promoted or doesn't speak up because I don't want to rock the boat. I want to have the caucassity at work.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:The other place I want to have the caucassity is when I see some sort of injustice, even if it's a minor one, being perpetrated, specifically by a white person. I want to have the courage to just be like, nope, we're not gonna do that today.
SPEAKER_00:Right. Well, okay, so let's dive in a little deeper. There's a difference between courage and strength of self.
SPEAKER_03:That's fair.
SPEAKER_00:And caucacity.
SPEAKER_03:That is fair.
SPEAKER_00:Because caucacity is the undeserved.
SPEAKER_02:You know what? That is so true. That is so true. I'm talking about courage. Yeah.
unknown:Right.
SPEAKER_02:You're right.
SPEAKER_00:So, like, when I say caucassity, I mean I want to walk into the deserve it. Tell me what I'm doing.
SPEAKER_02:Like, you hit those syllables hard.
SPEAKER_00:Hard R. Okay.
SPEAKER_04:Now think about representation. This is another area that Julisa really talks about in the book. Lack of representation, as we've all talked about, and like you and I have talked about as well, like in the media, in books, in movies, when you're growing up, like she made a point of saying, if a Latina was ever in a movie, she was made number five, or something like that. And like, I certainly never saw anybody that looked like me on TV growing up. I certainly didn't ever read books thinking this main person in this book is an Indian woman or Indo-Caribbean. Like, absolutely not. But what always was difficult for me was when we were doing standardized tests or filling out the demographics for whatever the heck when we were in school and not knowing which box to check. And it's not something my parents ever talked to my sister and I about because they both grew up and went to school in Guyana. They didn't have to do those things for those tests. My mom went to college in Canada, but I don't think Canada was doing those things at that time. So they never told us what we should check. And I remember being so confused and staring at those boxes for so long because, you know, Indian, Indi Indo-Caribbean, Caribbean was never on there. I'm like, that's what I'm closest to.
SPEAKER_00:Right.
SPEAKER_04:But I guess I have to put Asian. And it's still something I struggle with to today. I have a friend actually who is also into Caribbean. She's like, I don't do it. I put other. Let them ask me. Because if these boxes aren't gonna be inclusive, then I'm not gonna try to fit myself into one of them.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:And I was like, good for you.
SPEAKER_00:Um I went between first, I did other.
SPEAKER_01:Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_00:Um because I was like, but I'm not African American. Right. So I don't I don't. But then it had the slash black, and I was like, okay, so then I guess I'm not black. What? Like I don't I don't understand what that meant. I did see one time there was Afro-Caribbean.
SPEAKER_04:I also saw one time on one job application recently that said Indo-Caribbean, and I was like, wow, okay.
SPEAKER_00:And I I let me tell you, that was the biggest check mark I ever made in my life.
SPEAKER_04:Um that's what representation can do. It makes you so proud that you can actually see yourself like truly on even something so small as that.
SPEAKER_00:You're right. I mean, because now that I'm thinking, I I'm recalling the emotion. Um no, but I mean I'm making a joke, but like seriously, yeah. I like man, I was super excited. I felt this sense of pride that I just didn't realize was that important until now that we're talking about again.
SPEAKER_04:Same. Honestly, that's how I felt.
SPEAKER_00:And it's a stupid checkbox, but it's not a stupid checkbox.
SPEAKER_04:When you've never fit into it.
SPEAKER_00:Right. It's not stupid. And then, like, you know, then I got into this whole I am a black man. So then I would check that. And now I think I've Seen like they don't I don't see African American put on it, I just see black. So then I check that, you know? Um but yeah, that was a big deal. I did put other for a long time.
SPEAKER_04:I never did, and I after that conversation with my friend, and I recently went through all these slews of job applications that do ask you those questions, I started to wonder, like, should I start putting other? But I've just been doing Asian for so long that I did Asian, and now they have like South Asian. I'm like, I mean, I guess, but still not accurate.
SPEAKER_00:But right. And that's yeah, that it's complicated. It is complicated, and it's more complicated than I think people understand. And I wonder if you understood how complicated it was that you would do a little more to fix it. Probably not, but you know.
SPEAKER_04:If it affected you, right. That part, that part. So I recently had a conversation with a friend about names for children. My friend's brother had just had their baby, so we were just talking about names, baby names. And I was having the conversation and just saying that I always thought it would be great to have children that had very Indian names, whether or not they looked Indian. If my husband was a different race and they came out mixed, if I had biological children, like I would want them to have really Indian names, because I had always wished that my name was more Indian. Despite growing up the way I did, I wanted it to be like Nadeira, which is distinctly, I don't know, to me, more Indian than Nadia, which is a name that's used amongst different places. And my friend has a slightly unusual, uh, uh unusual nickname. And his point was just like, but would you like kids are mean, would you really want them to have to deal with being made fun of? And it it's an interesting discussion that I thought you and I could have about what what do you do? Like, I would want them to have Indian names, but I don't I don't want to make their lives harder, but I also don't want to give them names that I don't feel tied to and that isn't tied to their culture. Like I know I could give it to them as a middle name. My middle name is more Indian, and that is something we do in the Hindu religion, where you're when you're born, a pundit looks at the astrological sign and he works out what sound should be in your name for you to have an auspicious life, and then your parents find a name based on that sound. So that's what's in my middle name, that's what's in a lot of our middle names. But I also just don't want to have to make that concession because other kids are shitty. It's hard. I feel like it's so hard. What do you think?
SPEAKER_00:Um Well, it's challenging because you want to do what feels good to you, right? And you are not the person that's going to experience life that way.
SPEAKER_04:Exactly.
SPEAKER_00:Right? Um and I think that it's really hard.
SPEAKER_01:I know.
SPEAKER_00:Um, I think at the end of the day you have to do what you connect with the most. Right? Yeah. Um, and I feel like we always have this extra step of is it gonna be okay? And I think the first step is taking that step. Like the first shift is removing that step.
SPEAKER_03:Right.
SPEAKER_00:Stop asking that question. Because that question doesn't matter.
SPEAKER_04:Which question?
SPEAKER_00:Is it gonna be okay?
SPEAKER_04:Oh, mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_00:Because that ties back to our whole conversation on proximity to whiteness. You're not asking you that question, you're asking white people that question.
SPEAKER_04:That's true. And I think it probably goes to a conversation our parents, like immigrant parents, did not have with us that we should have pride in these names and not let anyone try to take that from us or bully us. Because can you imagine if as a child, if someone made fun of a mod and you were like, That's not nice to make fun of people's names, I'm really proud of that name.
unknown:Right.
SPEAKER_04:But that could have been like, oh shit, I'm sorry. Like, you're right, that's not nice, you know? Who knows?
SPEAKER_00:And the thing is, we want to talk about how kids are mean. Kids are mean because their parents are mean.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:I'm I'm sorry. It's just, I mean, oh yeah, like that's where they learned it. You know, blame the parents because sometimes the child just has other issues that they're navigating that might just be a part of their psyche, you know? Um whatever like mental what have you. Yeah. Right. And you learn it from somewhere. Right? You don't just learn you don't just decide to be mean out of nowhere.
SPEAKER_03:Right.
SPEAKER_00:The the the anger and the meanness comes from a place.
SPEAKER_03:Right.
SPEAKER_00:Whether whether your parents actively say those things or just treat you kind of nasty sometimes.
SPEAKER_04:Right.
SPEAKER_00:Or can't be bothered with you sometimes, or whatever.
SPEAKER_04:But these things can be unlearned. They shouldn't be that shouldn't be a burden on children of color to have to have those conversations.
SPEAKER_01:Right.
SPEAKER_04:But I also don't want them walking around wishing they had more white names to make it easier.
SPEAKER_00:I unfortunately think that that is not something that we can fix.
SPEAKER_04:I know.
SPEAKER_00:I mean it is something that can be fixed. But we can't fix that for them.
SPEAKER_04:True. We can just instill them with confidence.
SPEAKER_00:We can do that. We can do our own thing in, you know, in our communities, outside of our communities, we can speak out loud about it. We can do all of these things to find that true quote unquote American spirit, right? This melting pot that everybody wants to talk about that, but nobody wants to talk about. You know, all we can do is our best to move that needle and hope that by time they interact with people that it might be a little easier.
SPEAKER_04:Speaking of names, she also tells one of my favorite stories in this book. Um, I heard it from the comedian who who used to host Patriot Act. His name is Hassan Minhaj. Um I heard it from him. He like he used to do these things, I think it was before or after the show, because he hosted it live. He would take audience questions. And somebody asked him Um, what was the story behind his appearance on Ellen DeGeneres, where he went on there to promote Patriot Act and ended up not doing that and running her through how to pronounce his name properly because she wasn't. And the story he tells, um, Julissa mentions in the book, and I absolutely love that. So the story was he's walking out, and Ellen is doing the Ellen thing where she's like, Hasan menage, and pronouncing his name like that. And he said, like, as he was walking out, he got a glimpse of his parents in the audience, and his mom like cringed because she had named him, and that's not the name she gave him. And he started to think to himself and like remember that when he was coming up in the comedy scene, he would go to stand-up nights places, and they would ask him his name, and he would say Hussan, and they're like, Nobody's gonna say that. Come up with something else. And he was like, Okay, Sean. And he would go by Sean for a long time. And he said that like seeing his mom flinch at Ellen mispronouncing his name, like brought him back to that time where like he was going by Sean, and he's like, I'm doing it again if I let that if I let this go, going like letting her ride by calling me mispronouncing my name. And he's like, if you can say Ansel Elgord, if you can say Timothy Chalamet, you can say Hassan Minhaj. So like we're gonna work it out.
SPEAKER_01:Correct.
SPEAKER_04:And that's what they did, and he did not promote the show. He worked on her pronunciation of his name. Then he tells, he says, like, on the ride back to his parents' house, because like he's visiting with them while he's did the show, his dad is just berating him, like, why would you do that? You were on TV, you were with Ellen, like you should have just like let it go and talked about the show and blah blah blah. And he says to the audience, who are mostly people of color, he's just like, you know, I understand where he's coming from. As an immigrant to this country, they were just sort of taught to keep their head down and survive. Like, just take it because you're just trying to survive. But I'm not trying to survive, I'm trying to live. It needs to be emotional every time. And he's like, I'm gonna make them say my name. And I love that.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Oh my god, I really thought I was gonna get through it and not cry. But I just love the power behind saying that. Like, you're not gonna get away not saying my name properly.
SPEAKER_00:Right.
SPEAKER_04:You're gonna learn today, as Kevin Hart said.
SPEAKER_00:But it's you know, the power of a name. And it goes back to your question. I would absolutely name your kid what you wanted to name your kid.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Period. Period. Because this means more than your uncomfortability.
SPEAKER_04:Yep. You go learn today.
SPEAKER_00:And you'd be surprised with a name like Asher how many times my name has been mispronounced.
SPEAKER_04:Which is so weird because isn't Asher a name in the Bible?
SPEAKER_00:Yes. I had one teacher for a whole semester call me Asher. And I didn't say nothing.
unknown:Oh my god.
SPEAKER_00:But you know what?
SPEAKER_04:That's so rude. She's not even using the that person is not even using the right vowel.
SPEAKER_00:Right. Um, I've gotten Ashton, Archer, all sorts of things.
SPEAKER_04:Okay, let's bring back reading comprehension because like those letters aren't even in your name.
SPEAKER_00:Correct. Um, and in the last few years, when I've worked with teens and you know, we go around and we say our names, it's always like a whisper. And I'm like, no, I want you to say your name out loud. Say it loud. Like I made this one girl scream her name. Oh, and I was like, You're gonna say your name with some confidence because it's yours. It is the one thing that no one can take away from you. That's true. People can break your spirit, you can say they can't as much as you want. Your name is yours.
SPEAKER_04:That reminded me, I read this article about slavery, and like not not to pivot to that, but the people that worked in, you know, the the slaves at the time, like when they had children, they gave them African names for that exact reason. They wanted to keep their culture, they were like, nobody can take this from you. This is still who you are and what you're where you're from.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Okay, so I think we have our answer. We're gonna give our kids the names we want to give them. So there's culturally tied.
SPEAKER_00:There, I don't know. Well, I mean, my mom's name is Judy, but fair. Most of the people, I should not have said her name, but that's okay. Um most of the people in my family have uncommon names.
SPEAKER_01:I love that.
SPEAKER_00:And I have always said that I my children are not going to have your everyday name.
SPEAKER_04:I have always felt that way too.
SPEAKER_00:I will not do it.
SPEAKER_04:I have always felt that way too. I'm like, I don't, I don't want my kids to have some boring name.
SPEAKER_00:I don't care whose great-great-grandpappy needs their name to continue. It is not happening.
SPEAKER_04:Great-grandpappy.
SPEAKER_00:I'm just saying. I'm just saying.
SPEAKER_04:Oh my god, not Pappy.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. People. Y'all, before we go to the next book and our rex, I just want to talk about this. Has been the most Mercury Mercury retrograde episode ever. So I just I just need you to know that.
SPEAKER_04:Technology was not on our side today.
SPEAKER_00:It has cut out multiple times.
SPEAKER_04:Yes.
SPEAKER_00:But you know, still we rise.
SPEAKER_04:Still we rise. On that note, our book for December, we wanted to make sure we were hitting you guys with something to start the new year on the right foot. So we were doing a reread, but our first time talking about it on the pod, which is Think Like a Monk by Jay Shetty.
SPEAKER_00:The book that started it all.
SPEAKER_04:It started it all. So it's appropriate that it's gonna start 2026.
SPEAKER_00:That's right.
SPEAKER_04:Um, so we hope that you read along with us. Um, and then to wrap it up, Asher, do you have any recs, books, shows, YouTubers, anything you've got? Podcasts, even.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Oh. Well, I will always say podcast-wise, the friend zone is my jam. You love I love that podcast so much. So much.
SPEAKER_04:Um what genre would you say they are? Like, what is their main topic?
SPEAKER_00:Um, they're kind of all over the place. So there's definitely comedy in there. They do talk about um, so all of them have different like interests, right? So each person hosts a different episode. So they talk, like in October, they did spooky season stuff. So they did trime or trime, they did true crime stories, right? Um, Dustin will talk about Bible stories and just be so funny in like the telling of the story. Um and sometimes they get a little like philosophical, sometimes they get into their psychological bag. It's truly just uh like whatever's coming up in the moment. Okay, um, and I just love it. They just it's just a really good group of people, and I their com conversations become really interesting. So that's my podcast.
SPEAKER_03:Okay.
SPEAKER_00:Um, I would say I've been re-watching a lot of YouTube again lately. Um, and somebody that just really calms me down, which is funny that my mom and I both watched this person, uh, Benji Plant.
SPEAKER_04:I've never heard of that.
SPEAKER_00:So it started because he did a lot of plant videos and had so many beautiful plants and like designed them and decorated them and like all sorts of things. Then it became more about like home content because you know he moved into a house that was like really beautiful and they were like redoing it all. And then unfortunately, it burned down in the fire. Oh my god, in Alta Dana. Um and now just in their new place starting to recreate content based off of like their lives now, right? Um, but his voice is just so soothing and he seems like just a friendly face, and it's it's just wholesome, and I really like it.
SPEAKER_04:I love wholesome content.
SPEAKER_00:Uh what about you? What are your recs?
SPEAKER_04:Okay, so I've got a couple. I have one show rec on Peacock. It's called All Her Fault.
SPEAKER_00:I've heard of that.
SPEAKER_04:It's eight episodes. You think you know what's happening, you don't. And you won't until the last episode.
SPEAKER_00:I heard that too.
SPEAKER_04:It is so good, so well done. And I like that the um main character is a woman who from the trailer, like her son gets stolen. So like I'm not kidnapped, like I'm not, you know, telling you anything. I like that she keeps her composure and she keeps her head, like she's very emotionally upset and like distraught, but she is smart and she doesn't ever like let anything go. If somebody said one thing that she's like, um I may not push it right now, but like she follows up on that shit later. Right. And I love to see it because what I hate is the trope that the woman just falls apart and can't ever get anything done, and like she's a damsel in distress. No, this hysteria. Hysteria.
SPEAKER_00:Which is the term that they use.
SPEAKER_04:I'm not no, I know. And this woman is not that, and I love that. It's really well written. I it's such a good show.
SPEAKER_00:Is that the show that our boo is in?
SPEAKER_04:Yes. Okay, Jay Ellis. Hey.
SPEAKER_00:Hey.
SPEAKER_04:And it's based here in Chicago. Oh, cool. Which makes me sad. Like he was out here roaming around shooting this movie or shooting this limited series. And we just I know. I mean, he's married with a child, but sure dead. So you missed your chance. Um, and then I have two book recs. One is called She Didn't See It Coming by Sherry Lapina. It's a I I guess it's like a mystery. Yeah, I I guess mystery is the best way to describe it. Same thing where you think you know what's happening, and as it goes on, you're like, oh, okay, so now it's this.
SPEAKER_00:So you're in your mystery bag.
SPEAKER_04:Then it keeps going and it's it just keeps changing, and you're like, wow, this is not what I thought was happening here at all. It was very good. I am in my mystery bag. I love that just in books in general. If I feel like within the first couple pages, I know what's gonna happen here, and nothing surprises me, I'm bored. That's not for me. Yeah, so I love these things that keep me on the edge of my seat. And then my last one, because I'm also in my hell, my holiday bag.
SPEAKER_00:Okay.
SPEAKER_04:The 12 dates of Christmas by Jenny Bayless. It is well written, it's so cute, it's so fun and whimsical, it is not cheesy. The dialogue is really funny and like normal, but it's set in what feels like a really quaint, beautiful British town or British village. And like the the picture they paint of the way they decorate for Christmas, I'm like, I want to visit this mythical place. It sounds so beautiful.
SPEAKER_00:I love that.
SPEAKER_04:So if you want a little holiday something, something, check it out.
SPEAKER_00:There you go.
SPEAKER_04:Thanks for joining us this week, you guys. Or this month.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. All right, thanks, y'all.
SPEAKER_04:Bye. Bye.