Brown People Reading

Who Gets To Be The Hero In History - Cleopatra by Saara El-Arifi

• Asher + Nadia • Season 4 • Episode 6

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Cleopatra has been turned into a symbol, a scandal, a punchline, and a warning story for centuries, so we wanted a version that finally lets her feel human. We talk about Cleopatra by Sarah L. Arifi and why it hits so hard when an Egyptian woman in the 2000s reimagines Cleopatra’s inner life, her voice, and her motives. 

Ya'll, the set up was nice, but part II is where it gets JUICY! We need to know: are you Team Caesar or Team Antonius?

The perspective shift where we move through the story and then hear Cleopatra narrate from a later point in time, weighing what “allegedly” happened versus what she claims is true adds humor, bite, and tenderness, and it also keeps the book from flattening anyone into a villain. 

If you love historical fiction, feminist retellings, book club conversations, and honest friendship talk with plenty of TV recs sprinkled in, hit play. Subscribe, share this with your favorite reader, and leave a review so more people can find the show.

Music by - Asher Ahmahd
Edited by - Donnie Moore  @dddonniemooreee

Author - @saaraelarifi

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Life Updates And New Beginnings

SPEAKER_02

Hey Asher.

SPEAKER_00

How's everything going?

SPEAKER_02

Things are going good. Okay. Overwhelming, but good. Had some ups and downs. My my new manager, who I really love, is leaving the company, which is like it's a great opportunity for her. Super happy for her. Very sad for me. So that was a little bit of a downer. Yeah. The upside, I've been condo hunting this entire year, and your girl finally found one.

SPEAKER_00

Hey, hey.

SPEAKER_02

I know. So at some point in July, I will have moved into my condo. And I'm really excited about that.

SPEAKER_00

And the address is no, I'm just giving it.

SPEAKER_02

But I'm just like so excited. I've been falling down into these rabbit holes of like dopamine decor where these women have been like really going in on decorating their homes for them. So like using bold colors, using prints, using patterns, yes, painting their fridge, and doing cool designs. I'll have to show you this Instagram after. It's so cool the things that they do. It's a little too much for me. Like I'm not a pattern on pattern kind of girl.

SPEAKER_00

Uh-huh. We're not Gen Z.

SPEAKER_02

No.

SPEAKER_00

Right.

SPEAKER_02

But sorry, y'all. Um, but I do, I just love that. Like, it's okay to make your home feminine. Who said it has to look a certain way? Right. It can look however you want it to.

SPEAKER_00

Like, truly however you want.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. So I'm really excited to lean into that. I love that. How are you?

SPEAKER_00

Uh, you know, like um it's like whatever. Um, I think I've been kind of bummed recently. Uh, but you know what? The thing I okay, first, I think sometimes you need to sit and being like feeling crappy or like bummed out or whatever, because it's obviously trying to tell you something.

SPEAKER_01

Right.

SPEAKER_00

I don't know what that something is sometimes, but like here we are, you know? But I also think that like you don't have to like be miserable as you're sitting in the emotions, right? So like I'm just trying to find joy like wherever I can as I'm like navigating whatever's got me feeling kind of blah. Um what I will say is okay, so I I think for me it's just kind of like future stuff and present stuff, and just like, you know, where am I, what am I doing, where am I going, all this like stuff right now, right? Um so I signed up for this writing course, which maybe

Chronophobia And Turning 40

SPEAKER_00

I should have l saved that for the other thing. But like but um I signed up for this writing course, and every time you do a lesson, you have to one of the things is uh a journal prompt where you write for 10 minutes on just whatever. Right. So this one was about um you had to go fearof.net and it gives you the list of the top 100 phobias.

SPEAKER_02

Oh gosh.

SPEAKER_00

And you were supposed to just scroll randomly and like stop and then pick whichever one your eye goes to first. Um so I got chronophobia. Right.

SPEAKER_02

What's that one?

SPEAKER_00

Um in a nutshell fear of the future, which was like, okay, interesting. But then let me tell you as I'm reading it to like get information for the story that I'm trying to write, um, I come across, let me pull it up here, I come across this little excerpt chronophobia. For example, like what how does that manifest? Example one a person might turn 40 and suddenly feel empty. One starts feeling useless or feels they are not contributing in any way. I was like, okay, girl, fine. Yeah, I get it. Yes, I know that's how I feel. Leave me alone.

SPEAKER_02

Do you know what's funny? I just realized I turned 40 and got a new job. And you turned 40 and you're trying to figure out your career path.

SPEAKER_00

Um, and I want to publicly apologize to you for every time I said Lordy Lordy.

SPEAKER_02

Thank you.

SPEAKER_00

Because girl, I mean, she's a lot of fun. 40 is a lot of fun. And, like, you know. Things are aching that way before. Um, where am I? What am I doing? Who am I? Yeah. You know? Yeah. Um, but that's okay. It's all yes. Hey, growth is uncomfortable.

SPEAKER_02

It is.

SPEAKER_00

And I'll take it.

SPEAKER_02

But something better is waiting on the other side.

SPEAKER_00

That's right. I hope.

SPEAKER_02

So I know the writing class is something you're clearly

A Wellness App Built For Pauses

SPEAKER_02

doing for yourself. Do you want to talk more about that? Or is there something else you've been doing for you lately?

SPEAKER_00

Um, yeah, so like I have got something, you know, I've been talking about this something that I'm cooking up. But um basically it's a uh a website that you can make an app on your phone uh that's uh supposed to be a bunch of five-minute meditations, uh, breath work, and sound healing practices. Um just to like it's really for like okay, we always look at wellness like I'm trying not to do this whole pitch right now. Like, whatever. Basically, it's giving someone an opportunity to bring a little bit of pause in like they're anywhere in their day, right? Like you don't have to set out a mat and lay down for an hour to like take a minute and for yourself. Yeah, you can just take a couple of breaths, you can just listen listen to some music, reset, and say, okay, I'm ready. You know? Um, so basically it's that. Um I spent so long explaining it, I forgot the question. What are you doing for yourself? Oh, okay, okay, okay. Oh, the writing course. Oh my goodness. Okay. Um, so the writing course I started taking because I've been writing these meditations and I wanted to feel confident about like my writing skills. Uh, I think I'm a good storyteller. I think that I can just talk, but sometimes that doesn't translate to something a little more scripted, something that like stays, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Um, so that's why I'm taking the writing course.

SPEAKER_02

Nice.

SPEAKER_00

Uh also continuing to talk about therapy and learn a lot or take the uh go to therapy and learn a lot of different techniques to manage my attention span.

SPEAKER_02

Seems to be working well. Yeah. Oh, dang. I'm joking.

SPEAKER_00

Oh gosh. That's okay. What are you doing for yourself?

Rest As Self Care And New Classes

SPEAKER_02

Um, so a couple things. I have been trying to be better about giving myself rest.

SPEAKER_01

Nice.

SPEAKER_02

Which I feel like is a common theme every time I'm asked this question, like just finding rest and saying, I don't need to do four things back to back on Saturday. I can do two that are spread out so I have time to rest and decompress in between.

SPEAKER_00

Ain't growth magical.

SPEAKER_02

It really is.

SPEAKER_00

Won't he do it?

SPEAKER_02

And that has been nice. That has been really nice.

SPEAKER_00

Good.

SPEAKER_02

And it's funny that you were talking about the writing class because I've been looking into woodworking classes.

SPEAKER_01

Oh.

SPEAKER_02

I want to learn how to make something by myself, and I figure as a homeowner, it would be good if I felt comfortable just like fixing things or even making small things. So I've been looking into those, but buying a home is expensive, so I'm like, maybe let's wait.

SPEAKER_00

Right.

SPEAKER_02

Let things figure them, sort themselves out a bit before I jump into a course. But I also want to take a course this summer.

SPEAKER_00

And I'm I'm sure that wordworking classes are probably a little spency because the material and the just the skill set itself.

SPEAKER_02

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00

So I mean, hopefully not. Maybe it's totally like because I took a pottery class um that was like a month long. And I think it was like $189.

SPEAKER_02

I found one that honestly wasn't that bad, but it's only available uh for four weeks late July down the street from where I currently live, but I will not be living there when that happens. So that's what the one I'm keeping my eye on, because I'm like, I mean, that would be a really easy location. It is off the train, so I could just take the train to go.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, is that the made Chicago place?

SPEAKER_02

It is.

SPEAKER_00

That's what, yeah.

SPEAKER_02

But the class starts at 6 p.m. And I'm like, that might be tough with like finishing work, jumping on the train to come down here.

SPEAKER_00

Girl.

SPEAKER_02

So we'll see.

SPEAKER_00

Girl.

SPEAKER_02

I know. But again, that's right when I'll have moved in. But that's right when I'll have moved. So I'm like, Yeah, there's a lot of maybe now's not the time. But yeah, we'll

First Impressions Of Cleopatra The Novel

SPEAKER_02

see.

SPEAKER_00

Um, okay, well, an hour later, maybe we should like talk about the book. I don't know.

SPEAKER_02

I know. So this month we read Cleopatra by Syra L. Arifi. I cannot wait to talk about this book. Asher, what are your like thoughts from overall thoughts from the start?

SPEAKER_00

Okay. So I think when it starts it's funny because I grew up like I was really into like ancient Greece and ancient Rome. I was now like Egypt was interesting to me, but I didn't like hone in on that really. Um so reading this book, I was like, oh. I don't know if I love the well, the Romans, I have certain feelings about ancient Roman, but like that's okay. Um I think at the beginning, I was kind of like, you know, it's okay, like it's written well, but I'm not really like getting like sucked in. Yeah. And you know, I love like a honed-in moment.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Um, or something that I just like literally can't put down. Yeah. Um, but then let me tell you, after part one, I have to read this book by myself. Like, um, I just like it got so juicy once Caesar showed up. And like, I know, I know that we were getting these early years because they were important.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, they laid their groundwork.

SPEAKER_00

Yes, I truly believe that I wouldn't have felt the same things had I not had that. Um, but let me tell you, part two was juicy with Caesar. And then part three, I was like, oh my god, okay, I'm gonna keep reading. I normally do this thing where like if it's a long chapter and it keeps going, I will turn pages to look and see how many pages I have.

SPEAKER_02

Same!

SPEAKER_00

Okay, I feel so much better. Yeah. Because I'm like, girl, you're so impatient. Like, just read. But like, I feel like for this one, I found myself not doing that.

SPEAKER_02

Oh, I did because I read some of it while I was at the beach. So I wanted to know like how many more pages in this chapter because I was gonna go swim or whatever. But like I always do that just to know like my pacing too. Can I finish this chapter or like what you know?

SPEAKER_00

Okay, I feel better about that. Yeah, good, good.

SPEAKER_02

But yeah, I I feel the same. Like when it first started, it started a little slow, and like you were saying, it needed to lay that groundwork. But even from the start, I really liked the way this author wrote. I liked her perspective, I like the tone she took. I found it, I found it very interesting and engaging. It was just like hard when you're learning all these characters and you're trying to remember who everybody is and what the dynamics in the family, and you're like, wait, what? Who's this person again? So it can be a lot at the start, but it I really started to get sucked in towards the end of part one, and then yes, part two, I was all the way in. And then on. You know, it was great.

SPEAKER_00

Like that says a lot because I am typically the same where I'm like, especially like sci-fi or like like deep fantasy, where the names are just like, who is that? Yeah, you know. Um, I typically am like, I don't know who any of these people are. Honestly, watching shows, I'm still like that. I'm like that girl right there. I don't know her name. Yeah, but I found myself like not getting slowed down by that towards the end. Oh, yeah. Like I knew who everybody was.

SPEAKER_02

Towards the end, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

But I think she did a great job of like explaining who each person was and carrying that that vibe, that feeling with them as they moved on. Because what is faunus? Yeah, yeah, like the fact that I even remember a name to say out loud, you know, like that person was like gone for a while and then came back, and I was like, Oh, I know who that is.

SPEAKER_02

I feel like some of those weren't bad. It was when they used their last name as a first name in a way to recognize someone, but it wasn't always the same person. So, like the Btolemy Ptolemy was sometimes it was her dad, sometimes they used it in reference to her, sometimes it was her brother. I'm like, why are we using this? Why are we doing this?

SPEAKER_00

That's the family name, yes, right? But it goes in a different spot.

SPEAKER_02

I found that part conf that was confusing for me at the start. Um, but yeah, anyways, I really liked it. Yeah. I thought I thought it was such an enjoyable read, and I want to read some of her other books.

SPEAKER_00

I think like just the the imagery that I got from it was like wonderful.

SPEAKER_02

I think that um the love story between her and Julius. I've never seen it done like that.

SPEAKER_00

No, and the one between and you know, it's so fun. Well, oh, one thing that I do really like was the um the dimension shift. So we were like in the story, and then it was like her narrating in current day about what actually happened, what what allegedly happened versus what she's saying happened.

SPEAKER_02

Yes.

SPEAKER_00

Right? Um I really enjoyed that. Like the self-commentary was great.

SPEAKER_02

I did too. I thought it was so interesting and added a lot of color.

SPEAKER_00

And you know, I I what I appreciate is this could have easily made these two men sound like uh angry, aggressive beings, but there was a sweetness to both of them. Yes, you know what I mean? Like, and I say that in the and we'll get more into perspective later, right? But like, I say that to to say that like in this perspective shift, like it could have been easy to dog the men the same way that she had been dogged this whole time.

SPEAKER_02

That's true.

SPEAKER_00

And she didn't take that road.

SPEAKER_02

Let's talk about perspective then, since we're already on that topic.

Perspective Shifts And Humanizing The Men

SPEAKER_02

Okay. I I like the big thing about this book is this is written by a woman of Egyptian descent who did her own research who was obsessed with Cleopatra, and she wanted to tell this story from what she thought would be Cleopatra's perspective. Not the story that's been told by other people, by men, by women of a different generation, but by an Egyptian woman in the 2000s. And she gave Cleopatra a lot of personality and character that I have not seen displayed in other iterations of this story being told. Right. And I thought it was really fun and incredible to see and to like just to have that kind of way because, like you said, she could have decided to dog the men the way Cleopatra has been dogged and everything. And she didn't. She made them characters that you understood why Cleopatra fell in love with them, that you understood why she wanted to be with them and what her draw was to them. She wasn't some Egyptian slut that was luring men away from their wives. Like she was a whole person, too, who fell in love with them and they fell in love with her.

SPEAKER_00

Right. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Um, and let's not forget this the love story between Charmian.

SPEAKER_02

Oh, is that how truly I think that's how you'd say her name.

SPEAKER_00

Charmian. Okay.

SPEAKER_02

Yes, and their love.

SPEAKER_00

That was beautiful. It was like well, it goes back to remember when we were reading um Jay Shetty's book, Eight Rules of Love. Yes. And it talked about like how many words there were for love in Greek. Right? That's what it brought me back to. It's like that's a whole different type of love.

SPEAKER_02

Right. It wasn't romantic in nature, but their love was real and strong.

SPEAKER_00

Well I know.

SPEAKER_02

I know that they had like maybe some.

SPEAKER_00

I mean, it was kind of romantic in nature, but like there was more to it.

SPEAKER_02

Yes.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

There it was definitely more to it, and I don't think like that was the main crux of it, though, between the two of them.

SPEAKER_00

Correct.

SPEAKER_02

Because Charmian was in love with that soldier who passed away.

SPEAKER_00

I'm forgetting his name, but um Art Arsenal. Yes. No.

SPEAKER_02

No, not Arsenal.

SPEAKER_00

No, that's her sister. Yeah. Uh, but it starts with an A. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Yes. And like they had clearly talked about a future together or whatever. So I feel like her relationship with Charmian was something in between a best friend, sister, and lover kind of situation. Like they were just I know that sounds sort of incestuous, but like they just had that kind of closeness that like superseded a lot of relationship lives.

SPEAKER_00

I think what people would call now like a soulmate.

SPEAKER_02

Yes.

SPEAKER_00

I truly believe that. I do too. They were everything to each other, but knew that they couldn't be the ultimate everything. Yeah. So they still had their life. They didn't, you know, they didn't need just that.

SPEAKER_02

Yes.

SPEAKER_00

I don't know. Um, but I loved it.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

Siblings Power And The Healer Thread

SPEAKER_00

Um and then so what I thought was interesting was the sibling rivalry of it all. Um, and I appreciate how like the the comments were always like, please bear in mind, I have been ruthless.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Like, yes, I will I had many people killed, and I knew exactly what I was doing. And I am more than what you have heard.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Um, and I really, really appreciate that. And I love how, like, I don't think there was any shying away from the ruthlessness, because there was plenty of it in there.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

You know. Um, but it was nice to see the um the humanity behind it. Like, um, you know, with when the boats were trying to get back to Egypt and she had to sacrifice all those people. Like, she said it with confidence, right? But like she was torn up about it.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

So, like, those are the things, and this is the reason why she didn't really want to be Pharaoh, you know?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Because you have to make these types of decisions, and it's the duality of just being a human being.

SPEAKER_02

You may not like it, but you know it has to be done, so you do it.

SPEAKER_00

And like, obviously, not like sometimes you're in an impossible situation. I want to point out that like you really need to be in an impossible situation because a lot of people are gonna use this um excuse to do some like horrible things in the world, and like let's be real. Like, you have other choices, yeah. Um, you know, he knows who I'm talking to.

SPEAKER_02

Oh, okay. I was like, what is happening? This really took a turn.

SPEAKER_00

Um, but yeah, so uh the sibling sibling rivalry of it all, right? Um I thought it was interesting how like oh Arsenal, so we were just saying Arsenal's name. So Arsenal, her sister, how she was vying for that throne the whole time. Um and then the awful thing with like the brother um when she pushed him off the boat.

SPEAKER_02

Oh, when Arsenal pushed him off the boat. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Um and just remembering, oh, he can breathe underwater, he's just gonna be like trapped there.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Um I was like, oh cool.

SPEAKER_02

Um well speaking about perspective though, like seeing from Cleopatra's perspective how much she loved her siblings, how much while she loved and thought she saw them. She didn't really.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Because she didn't see a lot of the things that Arsenault had going on that as a reader I saw. And I don't know if that was the intention of the author to just sort of lay it out like these are things she could have seen and didn't.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Um, or you know, if we were meant to just be in the same l train of thought as Cleopatra, where like we didn't notice that Arsena was being a little bit duplicitous. But I thought that was interesting, and just you know, I think different stories say that she didn't care for her siblings and that she had them murdered, and this perspective that this author came from was like that's not true. She loved them, she was pushed to things that she didn't want to be pushed to, and like Arsenal had done so many things and she still didn't want her killed because she loved her, and that was her sister. And I I just thought that was really interesting to see, and again, the perspective shift of this book and the way she came about telling the story, I thought was really beautiful and made her a fully, fully formed person that you saw from all angles.

SPEAKER_00

And I loved the um the healer piece of it all, yeah. That was interesting.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Um, and how she took care of that man throughout the entire book. So when she were the villager that she went to and helped with his his leg, I think, or something.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, she originally had gone to help him with his leg. So she was supposed to be blessed by the goddess Isis, who is a healer. She wasn't actually blessed, apparently. I don't know if any of them, I guess some of them were, but like she wasn't blessed, but she still wanted to heal, and she thought by learning how to do it at the Alexandria Library, which I've been to, or I went to Alexandria, yeah, it was really cool. Um that and then going and helping villagers, but anonymously, so they didn't know who she was. And she would go and help people, and she'd gone to this man's home and helped, like he his leg had sepsis, and she basically took care of it, and he lived, and then she kept interacting with him because he knew she was what she was, yeah. He recognized her, and they had some like different interactions later where like he really came through for her in a a time of need, and that was really cool to see. But you're right, like the healer part, she didn't have to do that, right?

SPEAKER_00

She was a pharaoh, she did not need to do that. Oh, she was sneaking out, and not to mention all of that, and uh you find out later in the book that she has been having him give all of the fabric. So, like uh he works with fabric or something, so she buys her fabric from this man.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Um, which I think it's like a whole like I'm not just gonna give you something, I'm gonna use your services, you know. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Um to keep you employed, report small businesses.

SPEAKER_00

Okay, that's right.

SPEAKER_02

I mean, I don't know that there were other options at that time, but yeah, it's true.

SPEAKER_00

I'm sure there was some other there their version of big business, you know, whatever that may be.

Team Caesar Versus Team Antonius

SPEAKER_02

Um my first sort of fun question for you.

SPEAKER_00

Okay.

SPEAKER_02

Knowing the way the author portrayed Julius Caesar and Marcus Anthony, which would you choose if you could only have one of them?

SPEAKER_00

Oh, Team Caesar or Team Antonios. Um, that's really hard.

SPEAKER_02

The way she made me fall in love with both of them while I read this book, I was like, okay, I get it, Cleopatra.

SPEAKER_00

And like And give me some.

SPEAKER_02

And the fact that she met Marcus while she was still with Caesar, but she was like, I'm with Caesar.

SPEAKER_00

Right. Okay, that part. That part. And side note to that, the fact that um she, like when she was with Caesar, uh Octavia no, not Octavia, um, whoever Caesar was married to at the time.

SPEAKER_02

I think it was Octave. No, you're right, that was Marcus. Um I don't remember his wife's name.

SPEAKER_00

But she was like, I know of her, we know of each other, but like I don't have any feeling toward her. Yeah. Like that's something this is right. Um, I guess they'd be doing that, you know.

SPEAKER_02

I mean they still be doing that, but like well, it's different when you're not in a different home in the same city and you're in a palace in a different country. Right.

SPEAKER_00

I agree with that.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

You know, hosing different area codes. Different country codes. Come on.

SPEAKER_02

That is buddy.

SPEAKER_00

Um, okay, soon Caesar team Antonius. Um, oh God, I think I have to go with Marc Anthony.

SPEAKER_02

I know.

SPEAKER_00

I do. Like, because I listen, I love Caesar. I used to every May or March 15th. March? I used to watch the movie.

SPEAKER_02

It's good. Um the movie Ides of March or Julius Caesar. Oh, I there is a movie called Ides of March that is very good. But it's a political movie.

SPEAKER_00

Oh.

SPEAKER_02

I thought it was so good.

SPEAKER_00

Well, it makes sense. Yeah. Um, but uh I would have been team season. And I it you like you said, it's really hard to choose because she made you fall in love with both of them. Yeah. Um, but the the many times that she talked about their love, her and Antonius, um, this like fire, this warmth, it was always like grand and big and deep and all of these things. And I think that from what I read, you know, the relationship with her and Caesar was pure love, but it didn't have all of that, like yeah.

SPEAKER_02

I had to agree with you. I would go with Marcus too, and I think it's because and she I feel like said it in the book that Julius loved her, but he fell in love with one part of her.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

The Pharaoh.

SPEAKER_00

That was it.

SPEAKER_02

And they understood each other on a ruler, like power-to-power kind of aspect, and like he helped her in a lot of ways, which was lovely, and really supported her and didn't try to tear her down, but Marcus saw her in a real way, like he saw her as a whole, and that the Pharaoh was just one part of her, and I think that that's something Julius didn't really understand.

SPEAKER_00

Right.

SPEAKER_02

And I mean, the way they met, yeah, where he didn't even know who she was, had no idea, and already liked her. Yeah. Um, yeah, it was great.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, and now I'm thinking about the ending, but I'm trying not to talk too much about the ending because if you haven't read this book, you really need to read it.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, it'll make you sad, it'll rip your heart out, but it was beautiful.

SPEAKER_00

Uh yes, and the part two and three are kind of like a romance novel. I know. They were good. Um, yeah, they were good. Um no, I mean it's nothing too tawdry, but like it just like it's just described so beautifully, and like you want to have feel that type of love.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

You know what I mean? Um, and going back to Charmian for a little bit, I appreciate that there was no like um jealousy? No, they well, yes, that part. But like I appreciate that their romantic part of their love was, or excuse me, no, let's call it what it is. The physical part of their love wasn't really talked about too much. Um because while I'm pretty sure it made it clear that that was happening, right? I don't f like it's not the point.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Um, and I appreciate that.

SPEAKER_02

Again, perspective, like yeah, I feel like we heard about it a little bit more at the start, and then we didn't really anymore, because it wasn't like an ongoing thing or a regular thing. I didn't feel like it was a regular thing.

SPEAKER_00

No, there was a kiss shared, there was a cuddle, you know what I mean? Like there was that was really what it was. It was like connected. Intimacy. Intimacy. Yes. Yeah, exactly. Um,

What We Want Our Story To Say

SPEAKER_00

yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Do you want my other fun question?

SPEAKER_00

Oh, yes, go.

SPEAKER_02

Okay, so if someone is writing a story about you and they're telling it from a different perspective than say someone else would, what would you want your arc to be? Like, what would you want the theme of your story to be? To me, the theme of this story was that Cleopatra was more than we knew. Like that was the theme. Like, she was a whole person with feelings who loved, who cared, who healed. Like she was more than like this slutty Egyptian woman that lured men away and started all these wars. Like, she was a fully formed person. I'll give you time to think about it.

SPEAKER_01

Okay.

SPEAKER_02

Because my theme that I want, like thinking about my own story and thinking about the things that I've been through, I would want it to be written like she's a phoenix. Every time she burns, she rises from those ashes. Like I've I've been through a lot and I've picked myself up and kept going every time, and I've come back stronger, I've figured things out, I've pivoted, I've adapted, and I have made a life for myself that I'm pretty proud of. So that that is what I would want my story to show.

SPEAKER_00

I love that.

SPEAKER_02

Thank you. I love that.

SPEAKER_00

Um I think mine would be uh I think I would want it to be written. You know how they do those books where it's like um this character's perspective, and then the next chapter is from this person's perspective, and the next chapter is from this person's, and it goes back between uh kind of like um uh what's the book by Alka Joshi that we really liked?

SPEAKER_02

Oh, um The Perfumist of Paris?

SPEAKER_00

Well that's the henna artist trilogy. Yeah. How like it was the different names. Yeah. You know? So I would like it to be written in that style, um, but each chapter is a conversation that I've had with someone, or like a night out with someone, or like these. I think I'm just like where I find that I shine the most is in like one-on-one interactions where you can just truly like be with that person, yeah. You know, without the need to like keep up in a conversation or like whatever. I feel like I can truly pay attention. And I feel like I'm really great there, and I think that's what I want everybody to read about after I'm gone, you know? Nice to see the see the spark, so to speak. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

I love that.

SPEAKER_00

Thank you. Um, okay, I think I had do you have another question for me?

SPEAKER_02

No.

SPEAKER_00

I think I had a question for you. Oh, yes, okay. I have a couple questions for you.

SPEAKER_02

Okay.

SPEAKER_00

So we like to start or we like to end on like a more cloudy positive note.

SPEAKER_01

So cloudy positive, okay.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, sometimes you gotta be up there.

SPEAKER_02

Okay.

SPEAKER_00

Maybe not nine, but it could be seven, you know?

SPEAKER_02

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_00

Nine.

SPEAKER_02

I was like, what does cloudy positive mean?

SPEAKER_00

Donnie, take this part out. No, I just can't you can read it if you want. Um, okay, so we like to end positive because it feels good to like wrap up in that way, right?

Villains Heroes And Owning Your Past

SPEAKER_00

Um so the first question I want to ask is um who would write you as the villain in your story? In their story.

SPEAKER_02

In their story. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Villain in their story.

SPEAKER_02

Honestly, probably a lot of people that met me in times when I wasn't my best, or you know, recently a friendship breakup sort of happened that she would probably paint me as a villain in her story, and I don't I wouldn't agree with it, but I would understand if that's how she felt.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

What about you?

SPEAKER_00

Um I think that there were some people that I met in my like between like 22 and 28, hell probably 30. You know, um, in my uh there's some people that I met in my 20s where I was not my best self either. Um I think that um I have been really good at just like walking away from things. Um I would say more than ghosting, so I wouldn't even call it ghosting. I would just like because ghosting I feel like is kind of like a you just stop showing up, right? I'm talking about like I'm telling you I'm leaving. Fuck you.

SPEAKER_01

Oh, okay. You know? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Um, and even though I feel like I'm sure I was hurt in that moment or whatever, I think my reactions in my 20s were really intense and sometimes unwarranted, you know? So I can see those people painting me in a negative light. And I think that like I've, you know, in my quest to find myself, have been a little too selfish. And that's really probably hurt some people. Um and I gotta own that because sorry. Yeah, I think I needed it. I don't know, you know, like it's one of those things where you're like, I know that sucks and I'm sorry, but like if it's you or me, I gotta pick me.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Like I do, I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_02

Yep.

SPEAKER_00

You know?

SPEAKER_02

I agree.

SPEAKER_00

Um I mean, obviously, save like, you know, some child or somebody like about to get shot or something, you jump in and be the hero, but like, you know, whatever.

SPEAKER_02

Okay.

SPEAKER_00

What, you wouldn't jump in front of a bullet for somebody? You wouldn't jump in front of a bullet for me?

SPEAKER_02

This is taking so much. You're like after I don't understand what we're even talking about anymore.

SPEAKER_00

Well, we're talking about what the next question is. And the next question is who would paint you as a hero in their story? I don't know. Oh, hold on. No, I want you to acknowledge that that was a great segue, and you thought I was going off the rails.

SPEAKER_02

Okay. It wasn't a bad segue because I did think you were going off the rails.

SPEAKER_00

Right, but I showed you where to get I showed you where to get back on, so it was a great segue.

SPEAKER_02

Okay, fine.

SPEAKER_00

Okay, go ahead.

SPEAKER_02

Um I honestly don't know because I feel like we paint ourselves as the hero in our stories. I don't know that we're painting other people as heroes in our stories. So I don't know.

SPEAKER_00

No, not heroes in our story. Oh, I see what you're saying.

SPEAKER_02

Um so I don't know who would paint me a hero like in the story of their life. Is that what you're saying? Like they would point out.

SPEAKER_00

I mean, and it it doesn't have to I don't mean like their entire life story. I mean at so I mean our lives have so many stories in it, right? So like I mean at any point a story, you know, one of the many stories.

SPEAKER_02

I would hope everyone in my life that at some point in one of their chapters, I was some sort of hero for them, I would think. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Every single person? I would think so because every last person that you've ever met.

SPEAKER_02

No, no, no. I mean like my close friends. Okay, okay.

SPEAKER_00

I was like, all right, girl, I'm gonna let you know.

SPEAKER_02

I met like the people in my life, like the children. Yeah, because at every point, at some point in my life, each of them has played that role. You know, and I think that's just like the nature of having close friendships and relationships. What about you?

SPEAKER_00

You got some real good media training, not a name to be said.

SPEAKER_02

I feel like it's weird to say people's names. Well, I haven't heard you drop a single name either, sir.

SPEAKER_00

It was 20. No, I'm just kidding.

SPEAKER_02

The year was 2019.

SPEAKER_00

A very warm day in Florida, 2004. Actually, 2003. Um, and actually, I do have like I have painted. I mean, hero is kind of weird, right? But like hero-esque in this story, you know. I just think that I had an audition once that I got miscommunicated on and did not have everything prepared. And this person really went to bat for me, and it truly changed my life a lot, like a lot, you know. So, like, and then I ended up working for this person for several years, yeah, and then working with them, not for them. That's true. You know, for years after that. So, like, I would paint that person as a hero in my story, you know. Nice. Um, I would hope that anyone I ever taught painted me as a hero at some point.

SPEAKER_02

Thank you.

SPEAKER_00

Because I feel like in teaching, I really like and it could be formal or informal, right? But I feel like I really give myself when I like teaching or like in any form, school or just in a group setting, you know. Um so that would be my hope, I think. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

I love that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Um, all right, so we're not gonna really talk about the end. No. Um but again, I think you really, really, really need to read this book. I don't think you said this about anything except the henna artist.

SPEAKER_02

Truly. Like, read this book. It is so good.

SPEAKER_00

It's so like is it yeah, it's good.

SPEAKER_02

Cleopatra by Sarah L. Arife. Yes.

SPEAKER_00

Um okay, so do we want to do any racks?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah,

Recommendations And Summer Break Plans

SPEAKER_02

I was just thinking about that. So I um have I think a couple of show racks, maybe. I think I don't remember if I talked about this last time. Running Point season two on Netflix.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_02

I love it. It's got Jay Ellis in it. It's um written and executive produced by Mindy Kaling. It also has Kate Hudson, who I forget that she's such a good actress and I really like her energy. She just seems like she's a happy, fun person to be around and just has like a joyful spirit. Um it's a really good show, and it just is very heartwarming and light, which I feel like that's my show. That's my kind of show.

SPEAKER_00

That is your kind of show, yes, absolutely.

SPEAKER_02

Um, and then I just started watching because it's like all over my Instagram, off campus.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, I don't know what that is.

SPEAKER_02

It it's it does involve hockey, but it's not heated rivalry kind of thing, because it's a hetero relationship.

SPEAKER_01

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_02

But it's like multiple hetero relationships written by a woman. So and it's on prime video. Um this first season, I think it's gonna be like different seasons for each of the guys. I don't know, because there are like four of these teammates, and the one that's happening now, there have been multiple conversations that the men have had or that the mate, this main character has had, and I'm like, this was definitely written by a woman. They're not having communication issues, they're not, he's not none of them are leaning into jock stereotypes of being like, you know, oh bro, fuck that trick. Like, it's nothing like that. Like they're very in touch with their feelings. They're like, he needs to study, turn down the TV, like he needs to pass his class, it's important to him.

SPEAKER_00

Like, oh, is this like a college thing?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. Oh, like they all feel emotionally mature, and uh there's no guy that's like a jerk or like a dick in this. Like they all are like well-rounded.

SPEAKER_00

Is this like emotionally mature as in like I'm gonna tell you everything about my feelings, or is it just written like they're just decent people?

SPEAKER_02

It's just written like they're decent people that like understand. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

That like they spell out all of the emotional, like it's like you read an SEL like handbook. No, and then wrote it in a script.

SPEAKER_02

No, this isn't like that. Okay, good. It's very interesting. Um, so that's that. And then the last one I'll do is YouTube series with our Lord and Savior Issa Ray. I love her.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah. She's doing a Our Lord and Savior is wild. I cannot. Okay. The year of our Lord Issa 2026. Yeah. Okay, continue. Sorry.

SPEAKER_02

She's doing a weekly podcast with her. I think he was the producer, maybe director, apprentice penny of Insecure. It's Been 10 years since Insecure aired. Which is wild. Which is crazy. And they're going episode by episode talking through it. And I've already learned it's only been like three episodes, and I've learned so much about casting and like some behind-the-scenes stuff. And it's like really funny and it's interesting. Um, and it's just been really nice to sort of like relive those moments because they also like cut it's like little portions of the show. And honestly, anytime Kelly comes on the screen, so funny. She is so funny. So yeah, it's just it's a lovely rewatch or a lovely way to reminisce about it.

SPEAKER_00

I wanna I want to watch it. Yeah, you should I'm gonna put it and I just got um YouTube premium.

SPEAKER_02

Your titles are that those ads.

SPEAKER_00

I'm so tired of it because you know, we kind of use it for the same uh reasons a lot of times, which is just to have music in the background or just to have like a picture on the TV if we're working or just reading or whatever. Yeah, and I cannot stand it when I'm listening to Bynaro Beats, and then there's an ad for toothpaste, and you're just like, or an ad for some sort of medication, and you're just like, I don't, I hate this. You've just taken me out of every so it's free for a month, so I'm trying it. We're gonna see if it's worth it. It's expensive.

SPEAKER_02

Of course it is.

SPEAKER_00

It's like 21 dollars.

SPEAKER_02

Nope. Crazy.

SPEAKER_00

I know, but I watch it so much.

SPEAKER_02

So it might be worth it.

SPEAKER_00

It might be.

SPEAKER_02

Um is that your recommendation? Sure.

SPEAKER_00

Uh no, so like I've got one um one show. Uh so Man on Fire.

SPEAKER_01

It is not light. No.

SPEAKER_00

Um, so Man on Fire. Yeah. Right? Dark. Um, very dark. Uh it's about this. Oh my gosh, the opening scene. So I don't know what happened. I don't remember what happens in the movie, but in this, like, at the very beginning, she's like standing in front of her like condo, which is like a high-rise, and her dad catches her sneaking back from a party, and as she's walking towards the building, the building explodes and kills everybody. Um, except for her, and now like this man, uh Denzel's character, which I gotta not remember the name of the actor that's playing it in the series. So it's a series that's the reboot. Um he's like protecting her, and like, you know, all sorts of action-y things happen um during that. But it's so good, it is so intense. It is like it's cool to watch um, you know how many action movies that you see like just the white dudes in, and they're like, you know, like they're saving everybody, and they're you know, like the take-ins or the whatever. It's cool to see like this black man play this type of character.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Um and because yeah, we did get it with the Denzells, but like we haven't had that in a long time. Yeah, so it's cool to see the different take, different perspective, you know. Um the way he like uses or does this character I really like, so it's good. Cool. Um, let's see. Other than that, if you're not watching Real House of Wives of Rhode Island or Atlanta, you are wrong. Um Real Housewives of Atlanta. You know, we read Pinky's book.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

In my opinion, is she not doing so great on this show, girl?

SPEAKER_02

That's a bummer.

SPEAKER_00

Like, it is she's doing okay. Um, I think she held her own in this argument, but then ever since that it's kind of been like shying away from her a little bit. Um but I hope she has some time to get in her groove because let's be real, none of these housewives, their first season, were like super amazing.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

So like they all had their flaws, they all had their things. So I hope she grows into this role.

SPEAKER_01

Okay.

SPEAKER_00

Um, Real Housewives of Rhode Island is very weird. Um it is like yeah, it's weird, but I like it. It's juicy. Um, they're definitely northeastern or northern east, northeast.

SPEAKER_02

No, you're right, northeastern.

SPEAKER_00

Northeastern people. Um so I like that. Um I think that might be it. And I didn't really read anything other than Cleopatra this month, to be honest with you. So I don't have any books.

SPEAKER_02

I will listen to things, but I can't remember anything right now. So anyway.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Um, so if you do not remember from last time, or if this is your first time, thank you for listening. Um, also uh, we will be taking a little bit of a summer break. Uh we will be coming back in I believe September will be the first episode back. So we'll have something to read, we'll have something to bring to you all in August so that we can, you know, have it for September.

SPEAKER_02

Um yeah, we're gonna have a new format. We've got some exciting things in the works.

SPEAKER_00

Can you believe we've been doing this? Has it been three years or four years?

SPEAKER_02

I think it might be four. Four. I think it might be four.

SPEAKER_00

Oh gosh, which is wild. I feel like we just started, but like that's kind of cool.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Um, so yeah, we're gonna take some time. I think the actually, I think the first episode back we talked about having just our summer reading list. Yep. And talking about that. Um, so yeah, check out the new things that are coming and we're gonna go enjoy the warmth of what we all do.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, have a great summer, everyone.

SPEAKER_00

All right, bye. Bye.