Tales from the Departure Lounge

#19 Joe Shaw (The Saracens Head)

• Andy Plant & Nick Cuthbert • Season 1 • Episode 19

Share episode

Send us a text

Joe Shaw is the head coach at Saracens Rugby Club based in North London, and the current Premiership Rugby Champions. A former school mate of Andy's, this is a rare interview where Joe opens up about the importance of team culture in elite sport. Andy is also joined in this episode by Isobelle Panton (UA92) as a special guest host. 

Teaching and coaching in different cultures is no easy task and Joe explains some of his mistakes along the way.  From breaking team mates out of jail in Manila to team building trips to Lollapalooza, this is a fascinating insight into the bonds we create with each other along life's journey. The pack, the ruck, the scrum. Good teams are for life. 

Final boarding call: Hong Kong

This episode is sponsored by us! Please subscribe to our podcast, leave a review or share with a friend. It really means a lot to us and it helps share the TFTDL fun to new listeners. Do it now because you know you will forget later. Love you.

Tales from the Departure Lounge is a Type Nine production for The PIE www.thepienews.com

Izzy:

you should do more podcasts.

Andy:

just wait till you get to know him a bit better.

Izzy:

I'll be nice now.

Nick:

Welcome to Tales from the Departure Lounge. This is a podcast about travel for business, for pleasure, or for study. My name's Nick and I'm joined by my co-pilot, Andy. And together we're gonna be talking to some amazing guests about how travel has transformed their. So sit back, relax, and enjoy the journey. Welcome to the podcast.

Andy:

Hi everyone. This is a bit of a special episode. Today I'm joined by Isabelle Panton. She's the director of Student Recruitment at University Academy 92 in Manchester. She's co-hosting with me whilst Nick's away.

Izzy:

Hello.

Andy:

We talked to Joe Shor, who's the head coach at Sara's Rugby Club. For those of you that don't know, Saras or dunno anything about rugby, It's arguably the best rugby club, in England Uh, they've won pretty much everything

Izzy:

much of the talk around travel on the pod is normally around the cultural experiences and he's got culture down to a tee. God culture, that breeds winners.

Andy:

this episode does feel a little bit like a high performance podcast ripoff. He talked about all the aspects that go into making a successful group of people work together,

Izzy:

The travel clearly played such a huge part in his career. Most people would not associate rugby with sort of care, relationship building, commitment and transparency and trust. It's given me a completely new perspective

Andy:

We might be working in rugby, we might be working in international education, but a lot of these things are so transferable.

Izzy:

I also loved how much he loved his job. How rare is it to talk to someone that loves their job that much?

Andy:

Joe is an old school friend of mine. he went on to play professional rugby for the likes of Sail and Newcastle, where he played alongside greats like Johnny Wilkinson, he's the head coach of one of the best rugby clubs to ever exist and takes us on his journey from professional player to where he is now via Hong Kong, whilst throwing in some gold dust on how to maintain a performance culture. Let's get some tails in the departure lounge from Joe Shaw.

Joe:

The truth is there was probably a bit of a divide between the Western and the, eastern boys in terms of the collective which was a steep learning curve, something happened, something really small happened and they just pulled a gun out and it just pointed at his head. They do their basics at the highest level against the very, very best opposition in the most intense atmospheres And they do them consistently well over and over and over again. the best part of his brilliant life was the time I was at ton's, the 10 years I was at Sara Sins. This brotherhood, this culture my mates for life. For me, that's a real success.

Andy:

Hi everyone. Andy Plant here. Nick is away at the moment. He's been in Japan trying on adult nappies, and now he's in Australia exposing his pasty legs on the Gold Coast. A little bit of drama recently in the plant household. If you follow me on LinkedIn, you may have come across my dog roughly. He's a cockapoo and also a little bit of a student conversion expert. Anyway, he got hit in the face by a train. I was sure he was dead, but after some surgery, some titanium and lots of ketamine, he's nearly back to normal, albeit a little shaving in places and a little scarred and a little wary of trains. Anyway, this would normally be our sponsor slot, but I wanted to take the opportunity on behalf of me and Nick instead to thank you all for listening and supporting this podcast. You can probably tell it's a lot of fun to make, and every like share and rating we get really helps us to keep making more. So if you have 30 seconds to spare right now, please rate us five stars, share the show with others, and leave a review on whatever platform you listen on. Do it now. You know, you'll forget later. We really, truly appreciate it. Thank you so much. Now let's get on with the podcast. Joe, welcome to the show. Should do introductions, Joe. This is Izzy. Izzy, this is Joe.

Izzy:

Hi Joe.

Joe:

Lovely to meet you.

Izzy:

you. I've suitably stalked. Yeah. So there's nothing you can tell me that I don't know.

Andy:

The Wikipedia entry is written by Joe.

Joe:

Izzy, where do you live?

Izzy:

My brother-in-law plays for sell sharks. Both of them do.

Joe:

Oh yeah. Who's that then?

Izzy:

Sam Ler, who just moved up from Bristol Bears and Joe Bed is the other one.

Joe:

Sounds good

Andy:

The first question we always ask our guests is if they could take our listeners anywhere in the world, where would it be?

Joe:

It's unbelievably difficult question because so many amazing places in the world to go, isn't it? But we're privileged enough to live in Hong Kong for. a few years after I finished playing, and I have to say 10, 12 years later, a big part of my heart is still there with probably the old Hong Kong, compared to the recent changes. But just everything about that, adventure arriving to Hong Kong airport, getting hit by The evening heat, driving into, which is where we ended up leaving, which was on the mainland rather on Hong Kong island. But as you drive in, because it's evening time, you have a light show with all the neon for Hong Kong city, which lights up every night at the same time, when you see it for the 900th time, it still just blows your mind that you're a part of that. What I loved about Hong Kong the most was the people, Western East and such a mix and diversity of people there there used to be an old phrase if you stay for longer than three years, you'll never come home. You can't get away from the food smell from the early morning of getting your buns to, food being cooked at 11 o'clock on the streets, the restaurants all pouring out. It was just an amazing place to be with this crazy mix of people. And then in the evening, it just, it's just madness. It is 24 7, but when you go out in an evening, it's just nonstop the other wonderful thing about being in Hong Kong is how easy it is to get to the surrounding islands like Lamar Island, you can be anywhere in Asia really, within two or three hours on a flight, which costs you like next to nothing. So you can go to Cambodia, Vietnam, Thailand's about two and a half hours away, Singapore, three hours away. China, you just have to cross the border to get into like Shenzhen or GU show or just have this completely different, cultural experience.

Andy:

So let's back up a little bit. How did you end up going to Hong Kong? What were you there for?

Joe:

When I was coming to the end of playing, I'd coached my whole twenties, so about 29 going on 30. And a young lad that I'd coached at a team in Newcastle called West Oak. He came for a few sessions and he was a lovely lad and he was gonna go on a gap year to Hong Kong, but was a bit worried about going to do it. And I'd been to Hong Kong previously to play, in the sevens there. And I wouldn't say it was a pep talk, but I gave him definite confidence to be able to go and explore and enjoy this year out, which, you know, what, what's the worst that can happen? You go and do a year of your life at 21. And you come back to England or you go and it works out. Anyway, it worked out and five, six years later, for whatever reason a contract didn't work out abroad and he got in touch straight away and said, look, do you wanna come and give Hong Kong a go? We've got a team, your coach, the national team, and me and my wife, we were just about to get married. I was about to finish that first bit of my journey. so we just went and it was the best decision we've ever made.

Andy:

I actually joined one of your coaching sessions. Uh, I'm still recovering from that session.

Joe:

that's cuz you were heavily unfit. That's the problem. That has nothing to do with the coaching session. Everybody else was fine. It was just you

Andy:

It's it's one of those places. Hong Kong, isn't it? Where it's like a rich history with the UK, obviously, and therefore a sort of expat lifestyle. How did you find that? How did you navigate those bubbles of people?

Joe:

And it was a really good learning point for me because the team that I joined I'd say it was Chinese Western team. So it was one of the teams that was definitely more Chinese, Chinese influence, Chinese players rather than the expats that had come in and taken over a club and made it more, Western, The truth is there was probably a bit of a divide between the Western and the, eastern boys in terms of the collective and who wanted what, which was a steep learning curve, probably not for today. we lost a few players. and I would say the biggest error that I made was with some of the Chinese Hong Kong lads, who were young lads. A couple of balls got dropped in like the first session, and I pulled them to the side. So it'd be like me pulling you, Izzy, come on over here. You need your hands up, all the buzzword, the little things you would do for developmental learning. And the kid just picked up his boots and walked off and just left the session just left and then it happened again. And what I was getting wrong, which a good friend of mine said, look, this is loss of face in our culture. if you pull two or three of us, then it's gonna be fine. we're getting it wrong together. But if you pull someone on their own in front of people, which it was highly down to me and they never came back. they went to the rival side and, rightfully so, cause I just hadn't done my research to understand the real, in depth culture of what it was gonna take to get the best outta these laps.

Izzy:

How does that channel into, when you're building teams at Sara's now? Cause I imagine you have a world of international players, local players. How are you integrating all different cultures?

Joe:

That's a really good question. I think that was way before me to be honest. It was, an environment and a culture that was set up for people to thrive, it was an environment that was so interesting where you were from and understanding you as a

Izzy:

Mm-hmm.

Joe:

When I came, everything that I had done, Hong Kong, the community work coaching for a long time, been around people of all different cultures that probably helped me, in my interview. And I would say now, I haven't been here for 12 years. We embrace everybody for who they are. So we have Tongans, Fijis, Samoans, Welsh people, Scottish people, Italians. We've got everybody.

Andy:

Rugby clubs have a very sort of linear goal, right? You've gotta win a game. The next game, all the games to, to get you to whatever trophy you need to achieve, do you think what you are talking about that culture is transferable into other people's workplaces?

Joe:

if I wasn't a rugby player, rugby coach, I would've become a teacher. But for them to recruit me to be in this kind of environment, it had to have come from somewhere. My parents for sure. Warmth, love, caring, nurturing, environment. The teachers that I responded to the best, a majority of them, Welsh, warm, caring, knew how to get the best out of me. So now I'm here that's how I coach. I'm a reflection of the good and the bad that I've learned from people in the past, that I have respected in the bad, that I've respected in people.

Izzy:

I saw a quote the other day about, someone asked, an NBA player, how they felt about the loss, and he said, do you get a promotion every year at work? No, it's not about that. It's about all the hours you put in but arguably a lot of your success, your trajectory has come from that care and commitment to networks and, those relationships. Maybe that opportunity in Hong Kong wouldn't have come about. Had you not built such a good relationship

Joe:

Last month, on whatever date it was, we had to play against sales sharks in the final. So if we'd lost, would that have been it for the year? Would that have meant we'd had a really bad year? You know, we were lucky enough to win. Of course it wouldn't. Of course we wanna win. but what if you don't what you'd like, you're not worthy of anything. It's every day's got accounts to enjoy yourselves. And I think the environment we wanna do is as quirky or is as different as you are. You'll be accepted, respected, and put in an environment to thrive, we're all like-minded here

Andy:

are you at the club now, Joe?

Joe:

Yeah, I've been in this morning, the lads have got preseason starting next week, so we put on a couple of sessions so they can see where there are,

Izzy:

they get a plan to train off season?

Joe:

It's different for different people. The youngsters who are just beginning their journey in professional sport, obviously they need quite a lot of guidance, even though a lot of'em are unbelievably professional. Uh, guys that have been doing it for 8, 9, 10 years, then they know where their body is. They need to be managed differently for all the knocks and the bruises that. need a proper break, some have bad operations. but then the youngsters they're gonna have a bit of a blowout, I would imagine. Looking at them outside, it looks like they've all looked after themselves. It's just me that's fallen off the wagon.

Izzy:

You Did you look different on your Wikipedia page?

Joe:

This is gonna be a really nice hour isn't it? We take the lads away on these training events every year, do a bit of training, but then it's about making memories. So we have three days socializing to no socializing. And we took him to St. Anton for a bit of high altitude training we were sitting on top of a mountain, and then I was with one of the players and he was from the other side of the world and he just went, well, this is the first time I've been on top of a mountain and this is the first time I've seen snow. And no one will ever take that away from us. do you know what I mean? And we do it two, three times a year. And whether that's Lolla, pal Loza in Chicago or taking'em on yachts to cross like Croatia, locally, Brighton amazing. we take'em all over the place. When we all finish. I'm gonna sit down with players when I'm old and bolder. Is he not like the Wiki photo? And we're probably gonna talk about winning cups and trophies for 30 seconds, two minutes. European Cup was good, wasn't it? Amazing How much work do we put in? But do you remember that time when we were in Barcelona or do you remember that time where we were in Bordeaux? And they're the memories that when you're 60 years old, is what I want my life to be about.

Andy:

If you were gonna give an after dinner speech that involves some travel, Joe what would it be?

Joe:

This isn't an after dinner speech, is it? This could go anywhere, but I will tell you one of the sketchiest things when we were in Asia, we would play in the Asian five Nations. You'd go to places like Kazak, Stanaway, you play South Korea, you play Taipei, you go to Japan. And I went to Philippines a couple of times, but really edgy places in the Philippines. So the one was, a place called Angel City, which was like an old us, marine base during the Vietnamese war. And we were playing pool. And the lad that had got me the job in Hong Kong. He was a really nice, posh kid. something happened, something really small happened and they just pulled a gun out and it just pointed at his head. That was like, that was just way out of. My comfort zone to be on a rugby tour. You know, public schoolboy rugby tour? No, no, no.

Andy:

What happened? Someone pulled a gun out and what?

Joe:

I lagged it. Andy, It literally it was over, the queue for the pool table. Not the actual queue. The queue. It was his turn to go

Izzy:

Oh my.

Joe:

So you just like, absolutely no problem mate. You go, you go first. if you're willing to spell out a gun, then you know, you can have that. And then the other one, was in Manila, a great place. But again, could be quite sketchy. And I think there was about 90 of us out there on tour, probably more. And two of the boys that were in my team they. They got caught outside, having a we, right? Only me and another guy saw these guy get arrested by the local police, put in the back of the car, and off they went. And I got a taxi with this other chat, and we drove for about 10 minutes until we got to the police station, which I can only explain, was like a Western movie. you walked through the door and two police officers were sitting there with their feet on the table crossed. And in the background there's one singular cell, and the two boys, two boys were in there crying, you know, oh my God. We're in a manila prison. so I, I talked to what they'd done, obviously explained what they'd done. Boys admitted it. And then I was like, what's it gonna take for the lads to be released? And obviously it was gonna be money and, it worked out at about 40 quid. Right. And I was like, for both? For both of them? Yeah. 40 pounds. So this is gonna be 20 pounds each for the guys. what if I give you some more? how about 40 quid each Anyway, for the rest of the trip, they had us in the car, drove us back using a siren, and then for the next two days they were just a police escort wherever we went on the street. They were just protecting us the whole time over that. But that went from absolute worry to just the ultimate protection in one of the roughest places in the world.

Andy:

Sure you bribed a police officer there, Jay. we'll brush over that it's, uh,

Joe:

Said you could edit this so.

Izzy:

I didn't know how that was gonna go, you can keep that in.

Andy:

The next section of the podcast is called any laptops, liquids, or sharp objects if you are traveling anywhere. Joe, is there anything you have to take with you?

Joe:

I have a habit. Like I always take my laptop everywhere and I, I hate that, particularly now when I've got kids, like if we're on family holidays, but I just feel not right if I don't have my laptop with me. And it's mainly for if I get an idea about something, not forgetting it. And you can say notepad, pens and not, it's just not me, but I need to get it down, put it in there, start listing it, and then if I'm daydreaming it, it takes a bigger picture. And it can be anything that's influenced me when you're away, what you see, what you hear, So my laptop would be one. The other thing that I've always done as well is I always buy a National Geographic from the airport on the way.

Andy:

We all have these little rituals, don't we? I'd like to leave my laptop if I can because I associate it with work and I just want it to be a break away. Izzy, what about you? Do you have something you need to take traveling with you

Izzy:

I would take my laptop, but I'm like a cheap city break Ryanair gal and you can't fit that in your hand luggage. So I always take a notepad cuz I'm the same way. Being able to write down an idea that I get when I'm relaxed cuz they're my best ideas versus when I'm in the rat race What else do I always take? I'm a big fan of Birkenstocks. I can wear them day and night.

Andy:

You are quite a stylish person. Are they? Are they a stylish thing?

Izzy:

They're cool ones. You should get on board. They're cool again, it's

Andy:

Yeah.

Izzy:

And then I never get to listen to music anymore unless I'm on holiday. I feel like I don't get to listen to music or read or do anything relaxing. So I've always got a new album to listen to and a new book to read normally too. me.

Andy:

Solid.

Izzy:

I might get a copy of National Geographic now.

Joe:

Well, the latest one, Izzy, if you want to know was the, the most beautiful places in the world to visit it was really, really nice if you, if you's have a bucket list that you need to add it to,

Izzy:

Do you keep all of them?

Joe:

No, no, no, no. I've got, I've kept this one though because I need my wife to also wanna do it and take it off so we can go. It's a big one

Andy:

You go on tour and you travel and it's different time zones and all sorts of things. Huge amounts of organization, getting all these guys to wherever they need to be. And I guess they're eating all the right things. They need to train, they need to stick to this routine and discipline. How do you do that?

Joe:

when you go to a different time zone, so Australia and New Zealand are really the ones that you are talking about, or Fiji, Samoa Tonga and that, that'll be done different ways really. You can only try and make people be as comfortable on the planes to be able to sleep. I imagine don't watch too much tv, get your sleep in because when we get there, we're gonna have you up, we're gonna try and get you through the jet lag by training and get into that routine that's needed in the Southern hemisphere as fast as possible. I think getting your sleep is the biggest one. You know how quickly you can get your sleep and your training patterns right, and getting the body to adapt. That's, um,

Andy:

take chefs with you? These kind of things?

Joe:

No, we don't, you trust in the hotels, but you have your dietary requirements. I'm talking about domestic level at our level. We'd fly and,, we'd have our own play. That's really nice. And then you get there straight through somewhere like France, we would send, our dietary requirements for the two or three day stay that were, that we're having, and that would be to a t and our nutritionist would go over early, some of the performance staff s and c guys would go. And so it's just really as fluid as it can be for, the players and the staff, to be honest. Um, for us to put ourselves in the best place to be able to go and perform.

Andy:

The next section is called, what's the purpose of your visit? Why do you do what you do?

Joe:

Work-wise cuz I love it. sport. I wouldn't say has saved me, but it certainly has completely molded me into the person that I am from a extremely young age. I mentioned before the people that I've been lucky enough to mold me as well, good and bad. But also the bit in me. I've always loved rugby. I've always loved trying to make people get better. I can remember doing that for you when we were at school, I wanted, I wanted you to be the best. I would never accept

Andy:

I was loads better than you. I what you're talking about.

Joe:

no, no, no. You weren't, you weren't under, no, you. Some people, I, some people I would've paused and said, yeah, no, you weren't. No, you're better on a night out.

Izzy:

Most people would associate your professional purpose with building high performance teams, and that is like a term that gets banded around all the time now in sport and in industry. But I'd be keen to understand what a high performance team actually means to you.

Joe:

It as complicated as people wanna make it, you know, you wanna win, so how are you gonna do it? The very best players in the world, for example, they just do things at the highest level consistently, well, at the very highest level. In rugby, you look at Johnny Wilkinson when we were growing up. Now you look at Owen Farrell, look at Dan Carter, you look at the Anton Deante now, who's the French, number nine, who's coming through when you really peel it down, they do some magical things that will be put in highlights, but they do their basics at the highest level against the very, very best opposition in the most intense atmospheres against the highest pressures possibly. And they do them consistently well over and over and over again.

Andy:

So if somebody who doesn't know this environment, you hire a new player and you sit down with him. How do you explain all this? What do you tell them?

Joe:

The start is how you were made to feel when you when you first walk in the door. So if you were to come in for a day, so you come in as a visitor, either of you, what I would imagine I would see would be every single person that you come across you would have time from. So it's not just, oh, hi Andy. Hi Joe. It's a deeper conversation. Straight away. What you're doing here today, where are you from? Tell us more about that. It, it's, and it's natural. It's not forced. This is just the way our lads are or what they've learned from their peers. and then at lunch, you're not left to sit on your own You know, as soon as you sit down, people sit with you because it's little things like that, when you talk about high performance the first thing is they've, they've gotta be able to add to an already very strong organization

Izzy:

on the flip side when someone exits Sara's because they've moved to a new team, they've retired injury. How do you manage that conversation So that person continues to be a positive ambassador

Joe:

What a gray question is. now we are cooking this is again, what I think, sets us aside I said we have, when we sign people, we sign them because we think they're gonna be here for their whole careers. You look at our team, macrono Polo's been here since he was 19. Jamie, George 14, who played Marco Recchi just got him from Italy marrow since he was 14. Nick Qua 14. Billy 20, Ben L 14. And now these guys are winning things. Some of them have got a hundred caps for England, triple British Lions. When everything domestically and European wise, jackson Ray, who joined us 14, he's just left Duncan Taylor when he came at 19. He's just left, they're 31 or 32 years old now. And that, that's what we want. Usually when you exit Sara's before the end, it's usually because is of space or you wanna play a bit more, or you know,, you are after something else. Yeah. And our exit, conversations or what they say is the key thing. So when we have our. Leavers, do it's the most emotional night of the year because you're saying goodbye to people that you really, really care about. People are talking about them, and then they talk about their experience at the club. And when you are in it, when you are in the rat, right, you don't really, you don't really think about, it's just another day with your best mate, another day that you care about another day that you love somebody, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then you win, you lose, you win lose like, like you talk. But all those things that I talked about that have happened in before that have rounded us as people throughout our twenties, thirties, forties, that all of a sudden comes out and how proud people are that perhaps haven't said that, you know, week in, week out. I dunno what it's like in business, but if you are, if you are like midway up the ladder and you, you've got this big jump, the guy that's above you, that's helping you to get there, which I hope would happen, um, they can't want that more than than you want it. And very, you get pushed heavily here by your peers. We say to the youngsters now, when these great, great players, servants of the game are leaving this year, you have a word with the 19 year old that's listened to that and say, what's yours gonna sound like? When you are doing your leaving speech to the team, what's the person. That talks about you, what's he gonna say? What's he gonna say about you as a person? What's he gonna say about you as a professional? What's he gonna say about you as a family man? What's he gonna say about you as a friend? I speak for all the coaches, one of the things I think we love the most is the individuals achieve their dreams. The proudest moment is when I, I see our boys playing for their countries, whatever country is singing the national anthem, getting picked for a World Cup. We had six or seven pick for the British Lions, that gives me my sense of why I do it,

Andy:

that's so powerful. If, employers perhaps thought that the objective is to sign somebody for life. But what do you want somebody to say about you after the next 10 years,

Joe:

I would love it if people, when they're older, 60, 70, they're sitting there with their grandchildren and they say, the best part of his brilliant life was the time I was at ton's, the 10 years I was at Sara Sins. This brotherhood, this culture my mates for life. That would be, for me, that's a real success.

Andy:

The last section of the podcast is called Anything to Declare, and it's where you get to tell us whatever you want to tell us.

Joe:

I've always enjoyed the secrecy of, what we do at Sara's and how we do it. And, but what I believe is that rugby, it needs to be more open now for people to enjoy what it is. So, I'm really pleased I did this with, with you guys and people that are watching that perhaps aren't into rugby. Um I'd just say it's worth giving a try. It's an exciting sport. There's about to be a World Cup. We've got an incredible English team with English talent coming through. If you don't support a team, Sara's is a pretty good team to support. I've enjoyed it.

Andy:

Izzy got any questions for Joe before he goes?

Izzy:

I have one question, and I think it is maybe hard to reflect, but you as a younger player do you see a distinct difference in attitude and mindset? Is it something that needs to be taught and embedded more in college and schools?

Joe:

Completely different. I was a really immature, 17, 18 year old. I just was, good enough to become a professional rugby player. So I went from being a schoolboy one day with Andy, to the next day. I was living in Manchester, playing for sale with fully grown men. I had a few queen in my pocket. I, I just made bad decision after bad decision, after bad decision. And I'm sure people were telling me, I'm sure they were, but I didn't see that. I was playing, but then I was like living a bit of a student life and it just took too long for me to get things right if I ever got it right. However, when I was coaching, I was a very, very different person. Even though, um, it was completely hypocritical how I was acting as a young 20 year old. Old teenager compared to, um, what I expected of people was almost like do as I say, not do as I do, So coming back to what you're saying, we want young men and young women now, and the men's team and the women's team and the netball team at Sarason. we all know what we wanna aspire to and what it is and what it's gonna take.

Andy:

Awesome. Joe, thanks so much for coming on the show. Izzy, thanks so much for co-hosting. It's been awesome to see you both.

Izzy:

I know you don't wanna share Sara's Secrets, but you didn't and you still shared so much.

Joe:

so many people have written so many bad things about us in the past it was almost like they took such delight in writing such horrible stuff and about people that I care about I was like, I'll never do it you are gonna get nothing off me.

Andy:

cheers, Joe.

Izzy:

So you're excellent.

Joe:

Thank you very much for having me.

Nick:

Hello everyone. Thank you so much for listening. As always, you can get in touch with us at Sick Bag at Tales from the departure lounge.com. See you all soon. Tales from the Departure Lounge is a type nine production for the pie.

People on this episode

Head Shot

Andy Plant

Host
Head Shot

Nick Cuthbert

Host