#47 Jenny Wilkinson (Defying Gravi-Tea)

Meet Jenny Wilkinson, the musical road warrior who became pro-vice chancellor (Liverpool Hope University). A proud Yorkshire lass, she never travels anywhere without a handbag full of Yorkshire tea and a tenor horn. She tells the TFTDL flight crew all about being bitten on the face by a spider, growing up in a family brass band and why she always leaves the light on. A living example of the transformative power of study abroad, she is on a mission to pay that forward. Essential listening for the international education community. 

Final boarding call: Venice, Italy

This episode is sponsored by the The PIE Live events happening around the world in 2025. For conference tickets and sponsorship details check out www.thepielive.com

Tales from the Departure Lounge is a Type Nine production for The PIE www.thepienews.com

Transcript

Copy Transcript Copied

Andy 0:06

I've missed you.

Nick 0:12

Welcome to Tales from the Departure Lounge. This is a podcast about travel for business, for pleasure, or for study. My name's Nick and I'm joined by my co-pilot, Andy. And together we're gonna be to some amazing guests about how travel has transformed their. So sit back, relax, and enjoy the journey. Welcome to the podcast.

Andy 0:38

Today on the show, we are joined by Jenny Wilkinson. She's the Pro Vice Chancellor International at Liverpool Hope University.

Nick 0:46

Loads of people will know Jenny from the UK sector. She's the road warrior that became PVCI, which doesn't always happen.

Andy 0:54

No, it's quite unusual. and she takes us through that journey, studying overseas made a career trajectory for her And she unusually can actually name the person that put her in that place.

Nick 1:04

shout out to Rachel Jessup, who's at the University of Nottingham 20 years ago, she was advising a young Jenny Wilkinson to study abroad and look where she is now.

Andy 1:14

impact.

Nick 1:15

she says she's a musician first and foremost.

Andy 1:18

Doing a bit of pro vice chancelloring on the side

Nick 1:20

She's a composer, she's a singer,

Andy 1:23

in amongst her brass banding. But she, yeah, she, um, she did socio musicology as a degree. Is that right?. And she takes us to Venice. loves it, makes masks,

Nick 1:34

And she has some very specific packing tips. Yorkshire tea, teddy bear.

Andy 1:41

and she absolutely schooled me when I mentioned her age.

Nick 1:44

You never ask a lady her age.

Andy 1:46

No. And I've learned that lesson now.

Nick 1:48

It's a super cute episode her background and her family meant that she was really inexperienced in travel or even under prepared to go to university. She has this Innocent strength of why not her, she could achieve her dreams.

Andy 2:03

It is really nice. I mean, she's really nice, isn't she? Comforting

Nick 2:06

Like a cup of tea.

Andy 2:07

Like a lovely cup of Yorkshire tea. She's the brass band playing, mask making, tea drinking, pro vice chancellor, and proud Yorkshire lass who leaves the lights on and is pulling everyone up the ladder behind her. Let's get some tales from the Departure Lounge from Jenny Wilkinson.

Jenny 2:21

I'm from Yorkshire very proud Yorkshire lass. I always travel with Yorkshire tea. I can't go anywhere without Yorkshire tea. There's actually some in my handbag right now first time on a plane was to go and live in another country and study in another country. I had to ask somebody what a boarding pass was cause I didn't know. and literally held hands with the random woman next to me cause I was really scared. I couldn't find the light switch to turn it off again, so I just went to bed, and got woken up at about 3 o'clock in the morning by the campus police in my bedroom, They thought it was some kind of intruder

2:58

So before we get into the episode, I want to remind you about the pilot of events happening around the world in 2025. We're in Delhi for the pilot of India on the 31st of January, then we're in London, for the pilot of Europe on the 11th and 12th of March. We'll then go to Australia. To the gold coast for pilot Asia Pacific on the 29th and 30th of July. And then over to north America and this time we're in Chicago for the pilot north America taking place on the second and 3rd of December The prestigious pioneer awards are taking place on the 3rd of September. So get the date in your diary and your award submissions in. For details on tickets and sponsorship. Check out the PI live.com. now let's get on with the episode

Final boarding call for Jenny

Andy 3:45

Jenny, welcome to the show. It's great to have you on.

Jenny 3:47

Thank you so much. It's great to be here

Andy 3:49

The first question we always ask our guests is, if you could take our audience anywhere in the world, where would it be and why?

Jenny 3:56

I'm taking you to my favorite place in the world, which is Venice. but not the tourist Venice that a lot of you might have been to. I fell in love with the idea of Venice about 20 years before I even went there as a little girl reading a novel,, about the history and the music. And so my first time exploring the city was very much delving back into the history and culture of 17th century Venice, um, and outside the tourist traps, there's just so much more to explore And I go back every year now. Experience the magic of a city on the water,

Andy 4:29

wow, I, I've gotta read this novel. What was it?

Jenny 4:31

it was called the Venetian mask. and I don't know that you'd actually want to read it. but it's a piece of historical fiction by Rosalind Laker. This particular book, was about one of the orphanages in Venice that trained young women to be professional musicians. And it was about the specific one where Antonio Vivaldi worked And it really captured my imagination as this space where young women, often with disabilities, ended up being some of the most proficient and well renowned musicians across Europe. It also delved into the history of things like mask making so earlier this year, I went and did a mask making workshop.

Andy 5:11

Amazing. So you go every year What are your top tips? Your secret places? Actually, maybe you don't want to share them if they're secret.

Jenny 5:17

You know what? It's, It's a very easy city to get lost in and rarely go back to the same place more than once, because if you just wander the streets and Listen for sounds that sound interesting and live music and wander into places where the conversations sound interesting. You find the best food and the best drinks and the best atmospheres definitely would always recommend the Venice Jazz Club though, it's tiny. And as a musician, it's one of my favorite places to go. The person who owns it is the pianist in the in house jazz band. He also is the bartender. So definitely want to go and check out.

Andy 5:53

have you been, Nick, to Venice?

Nick 5:54

I've never been to Venice. I've been put off because all I hear is, you know, There's too many tourists, cruise ships, there's something I want to ask you, and I'm really scared of coming across. Stupid. There's a video on, Instagram or something of literally people dining in a restaurant whilst water pours in from all windows, whilst you eat a fine dining meal. Is that real?

Jenny 6:21

I've certainly not experienced that, but I don't know. I've never seen that.

Andy 6:25

I'm the same as you though, Nick. I haven't been because it feels like the world's tourist trap, but you obviously had a very different experience.

Jenny 6:34

There's so many people you meet who say, Oh, well, three days in Venice is enough. Well, it's enough if you wanna just Take the pictures for your social media and do nothing else. But actually, if you really want to get under the skin of a place that has such an interesting arts and culture scene, you have to seek it out. I don't think that's the different to any other major city, Go out really early in the morning before anyone is up. Or go out late at night and just explore and see what real life is like.

Andy 7:03

tell me about your mask. Is it a success?

Jenny 7:07

I'm not very good at painting. Like I'm very artistic when it comes to music, but I'm like one of those children who would just end up with paint all over their face, It was better than I anticipated.

Andy 7:17

ever had opportunity to wear it

Jenny 7:19

Um, I mean, while you're doing the cleaning around the house, that's quite fun time.

Andy 7:24

The occasional team's call.

Jenny 7:26

Yeah, why not?

Nick 7:27

I've googled it, by the way, and Google's full of sinking restaurants. It must be when the water rises and then some of these restaurants flood, but they can't afford to stop. They just carry on.

Jenny 7:38

I've never been to the sinking restaurant, one to look out for with your wellies on.

Andy 8:02

Madness. So you mentioned your musical

Jenny 8:05

Yeah.

Andy 8:06

Tell us a bit about that. Tell us what you play and where you play it.

Jenny 8:09

this is my entire other life that probably half the sector knows about because I talk about it way too much, but

Andy 8:15

Your real

Jenny 8:16

me, my entire, yeah.

Andy 8:18

and then you, yeah, supporting it by being a pro vice chancellor. Got you.

Jenny 8:22

right, exactly. But for me, my entire identity is underpinned by the fact that I'm a musician, that's how I see myself first and foremost. I decided when I was about three years old that I wanted to be a singer and, It went from there. I trained as a singer for most of my childhood and at university, my first degree was in music. I also grew up in a brass band. So I'm from Yorkshire, very proud Yorkshire lass. my parents met in a brass band when they were children. and then my sister and I, when we wanted to learn to play, we also went and learned in the same brass band. Twice a week we all went to band as a family. the four of us. and that was really, a really important part of my childhood, When I Went to university, I studied conducting, brass playing, but also socio musicology. looking at the concepts of equality, diversity, and inclusion through music and how music can be an equalizing force. Then moved to London and realized there was nothing free for a musician in London, So, along with some friends, I was involved in setting up and running a brass band where, anyone could come and learn for free, That was a big part of my first 10 years in London and how I met most of my good friends and how I eventually met my husband as well through the brass band.

Andy 9:39

Man, this is, this, like, brass bands are keeping the human race going. This is brilliant.

Nick 9:43

Also brass bands are really cool now, aren't they? They're everywhere. I mean, you want to get back into the brass band game.

Andy 9:50

Jenny was in it before it was cool,

Nick 9:52

Was she doing covers of Nirvana and Jay Z and things like that at the time?

Jenny 9:56

Sadly not, It was very much traditional Yorkshire brass band associated with the Methodist Church. We definitely weren't doing Nirvana covers, I was the conductor of a brass band in London as well. And I've been conducting bands since about 2010, 11. And there's some really interesting Parallels with the way that you develop your leadership skills at work, how that then plays out in a very different setting in a community setting. I would say certainly learning how to and talk to people, learning how to communicate with people from all different backgrounds, all different beliefs sets. As a child, being part of a brass band where my, my first band, I was six years old and I was sat next to somebody in their eighties, um, that was my experience. It didn't seem weird. And that's been a really formative part, I think, of who I am today.

Andy 10:47

and I guess you don't get many young female conductors of brass bands. How's that?

Jenny 10:55

You do not, and it's challenging, I think, and it has been problematic at times. There's some fantastic, female conductors coming through now. Um, I run a conducting course for, a few years in London and taught a number of women who are now conducting and it's been really great to see how you feed that forward, particularly in a community setting where everything's done for the love of it.

Nick 11:18

is your favorite brass instrument? I'm intrigued. Trombone,

Jenny 11:22

No, I'm a tenor horn player and nobody ever knows what that is because it only exists in a British brass band. When I studied abroad, I was meant to be doing one of my modules playing brass and they gave me a French horn, which is an entirely different instrument that you play with the opposite hand. It has a different size mouthpiece and all kinds of things because I just said I play the horn. It was my own error. And, things being lost in translation. So tenor horn, which is, I guess the easiest way to describe it, if you don't know, is a very tiny tuba.

Nick 11:51

I'm still looking blank.

Andy 11:55

Massively outside my comfort zone talking about all of this, but,

Nick 11:58

And I'm imagining, the band all piling into the back of a transit van and going off to some middle England village to perform. Surely this was the early stages of your travel.

Jenny 12:11

yeah. Although most of the playing that I did as a child was very much. in and around Bradford, right. We didn't really, we didn't really do tours or anything at that point in my life. Although I have since taken brass bands, around the country. And can we say Ireland is overseas? I think we can. So yeah, we, we've taken them overseas as well. I've done like international tours as well with choirs and things. Um, and so, yeah, I guess it probably was, but. Very different kind of experience to how we'd think about travel now, particularly because my parents were also in the brass band. So it was just, a family day out. We'd drive half an hour down the road and play a brass band concert on the Rippon Bandstand and then have a nice day out and a picnic.

Andy 12:57

And there must be competitions. What's the sort of biggest trophy that you can win in the brass band world?

Jenny 13:03

there are, but I am very much a non contesting player. I've done some competitions over the years, but now actively in more recent years have chosen not to participate in contesting bands. Um, I always liken it to I guess the football leagues, which I don't know very much about. I'm probably as uncomfortable with that as you are with brass bands, but there's

Andy 13:24

with that. It's fine.

Jenny 13:25

there you go. Okay. So there's a, there's different, there are different levels though. And so the championship section is the top section, I suppose. I suppose one of the reasons that I have made that choice not to be involved in that part of the world is around, equity of opportunity, right? If you're an adult learner, who's never had the opportunity to learn, or, you If I hadn't had a charity on the doorstep who would have taught me for free, I would never have learned to play. And so if you don't have that opportunity, then is it, is that a space that I really want to spend my time in? Now I'm much more interested in bringing people in and making music be something that everyone can enjoy and everyone can participate in.

Nick 14:07

I've always felt brass bands should be for the people. I'm not interested in any brass band European Super League. know.

Jenny 14:16

It exists, if you want it, you can go and find it.

Any laptops, liquids or sharp objects?

Andy 15:01

The next section of the podcast is called any laptops, liquids, or sharp objects. So is there anything that you have to take with you when you go overseas or do you have any advice for fellow travelers?

Jenny 15:12

I mean, this is going to sound really cliche now, given what we've just been talking about. I always travel with Yorkshire tea. I can't go anywhere without Yorkshire tea. There's actually some in my handbag right now, and I'm literally just in Liverpool. but it comes everywhere with me. I have about 10 cups of tea a day, I'm probably one of the only people who takes my own tea with me to India and China and Sri Lanka. But it literally comes everywhere. Yorkshire tea is my number one. No, mini enough to fit in my hand luggage. It'd be really,

Nick 15:43

a kind of Yorkshire stereotype Do you have a picture of Sean Bean in your purse?

Jenny 15:47

not. I don't

Nick 15:49

placement. What

Jenny 15:50

Yorkshire tea is always top of the list. And there's often a teaspoon in there as well, because you know, you don't want the stir, it might, might ruin the teabag. They come everywhere. I think the other thing that is, well, I always take my running shoes as well. wherever I go. In fact, there is half of my suitcase that remains packed at all times. And I come back from a trip and immediately replenish my Yorkshire tea and my sticking plasters and anything else that, you know, needs replenishing. Then you're ready for the next time. And the packing takes a lot less energy. Um, So running shoes are the other thing, I think it's really important to do the things that keep you a little bit calm and sane and give you the space to reflect on a trip. So running is my thing. Um,

Nick 16:33

the moment?

Jenny 16:33

uh, my current ones are just a pair of Nikes. I have weirdly small feet, and so I have to wear children's size running shoes, which isn't great

Nick 16:43

you can save money if you have feet the size of a

Jenny 16:46

Right. It's true, but then like, half my shoes have little bows on the front and things, which is,

Andy 16:51

There's little wheels on the back.

Jenny 16:57

I guess my other thing, which we'll possibly talk about sustainability later. So please don't judge me for this, but the other thing that I always do when I travel for work is I have to sleep with a light on because probably my second job, I was. A full on road warrior, and I'd be going for my, maybe five or six weeks at a time, a different hotel every night. And the number of times I'd wake up and fall out of bed or walk into a wall and injure myself, I was like, No, I have to start sleeping with the light on so that when I wake up I can see obstacles in the way. and it became a thing over a number of years, and now I always keep a light on so that I don't walk into walls. Maybe don't put that in actually, that makes me sound really incompetent.

Andy 17:40

Most people, say. They often have blackout rooms because, because of jet lag and things like that. You need to have it completely black to trick yourself, but you, you leave the lights on.

Jenny 17:48

so I have the opposite issue. I find it very difficult just generally to fall asleep, but when I'm asleep, I'm fast asleep. So then if I wake up and there's blackout blinds, I think it's night and I'll just fall back asleep. I can't wake up in the morning. So I'd, I'm always a bit nervous overseas of, you know, The jet lag making me oversleep and miss a meeting, which to be fair, I think it's only ever happened once in all the years of doing it,

Nick 18:12

I hate the type of sleep where you're waiting to wake up because you've got a meeting or something. So you're not really asleep. And when you wake up before the alarm you've set, why do we do that? bodies are weird, aren't

Andy 18:23

Mm. Every.

Jenny 18:24

And even at home, I have one of these. Sunrise simulation lamps in the morning, cause I, I do struggle to wake up, probably cause I struggle to get to sleep right, and so not having that when you're on the road, when you're used to having that every morning, waking you up it's a tricky one.

Andy 18:40

I mean, not getting to sleep Jenny, maybe you need to cut back on the Yorkshire tea.

Jenny 18:45

I've actually started going to decaf, uh, in recent years,

Andy 18:49

Oh, it's not proper anymore. No.

Jenny 18:51

know, it's not a proper brew anymore. I don't know.

Nick 18:54

some sort of bugle based alarm clock that BOOP

Jenny 18:59

You, you joke about that, but there was a point, this is true, a point during our teenage years where my sister and I were very bad at getting up, and our parents used to play the cornet on the landing outside our bedrooms to wake us up in the morning, so you, you joke, but that's a reality of my childhood.

Andy 19:18

are you a unpack everything, iron, ready for the next day, or are you leave it in the case and just roll with it?

Jenny 19:26

It depends on the kind of trip and I always used to leave everything in the case but that's because I for many years was never in one place for more than one night and if you're not in one place for more than one night what's the point? Um, and it is quite unsettling after a while. If I'm staying somewhere for a good long time, so I was in the States, the week before for a conference. And I did take things out of the case. Um, I have to say, I don't think I've used an iron in about 15 years. I just buy non ironable clothes, which is much simpler on a trip.

Andy 19:56

Yeah. I always think there's two types of people out there. The ones that leave it. And the ones that unpack it.

Jenny 20:00

Yeah.

Andy 20:01

they marry each other, and they both think, well, the person that, um, the person that doesn't unpack thinks the person that unpacks is a psychopath. I think. Yeah.

Jenny 20:09

I just don't see the point in unpacking.

What's the purpose of your visit?

Andy 20:41

The next section of the podcast is called, What's the purpose of your visit? So, why do you do what you do?

Jenny 20:46

Well, I think there's two parts to that is why do we do what we do and how did we get into doing what we do, which are very closely tied together, but are actually slightly different in my mind. So I suppose my experience of higher education, and my experience of international education is how I got to where I am and feeds into a lot of the stuff that we've already talked about around my growing up, my motivations around equal opportunities to education, and the role of communities in equalizing access to education. I grew up in Bradford in the nineties. it was an interesting time for the city, but also in terms of my own background, the school that I went to and the community I was part of, it was not really an expectation that I would Any of the young people in that school would succeed, would go on to do A levels, let alone go to university. and so there was a, had to be a real driver for why you wanted to do it, and why you wanted to succeed in that educational system. I decided, As I said, when I was about two or three years old that I wanted to be a singer, and you couldn't really do that in Bradford in the 90s. So you had to really, want to do it and figure out a pathway early on, which I was fortunate enough to have a really supportive family who helped figure out what that pathway looked like and made a number of sacrifices so that I could have music tuition. And so for me, there was always this thing in my mind that I wanted to do well in education to be able to then go and meet those goals, which included having to leave the city. So then going to university was a huge transition and it was actually quite a traumatic experience. And I ended up studying abroad and having an international experience. Because university wasn't working out. I think we often talk in the sector about these romanticized, visions of our educational experience. I really struggled in my first year of university. The transition was really difficult and there wasn't the right level of student support for somebody from a WP background coming into a Russell group institution. It just, at that point it didn't exist and I didn't know who to ask for help. and. The story of how I studied abroad was complete chance, but really transformative. I was on the phone to my mum, and I was really upset. I wanted to drop out of university, and it was really cold. And I was just, I was just getting really upset walking across campus. And she said, just go in the nearest building and warm up. When you're warm, everything will feel better. So I just walked into the nearest building, and it happened to be probably about this time of year. And I walked into this building and this woman grabbed me and said, Oh, hello, come in the study abroad fair, come and chat to us, And I said to my mum, sorry, I've got to get off the phone. Some woman's chatting to me. I'll, I'll call you back and walked into the study abroad fair going, well, I've never been abroad. Like, nobody in my family has ever left the UK. What are you talking about? I've never even gone on a holiday overseas. I can't go abroad. This isn't for people like me. and she told me about all the funding available for WP students, that it was an opportunity that we could do. Didn't have to drop out of uni, but I wouldn't have to be there for a semester. Um, and I kind of went, Oh, maybe this is an option. And just purely by chance, the right person spoke to me at the right time. And she ended up being my study abroad advisor, Rachel Jessup, who's still now at Nottingham. I see her every year at EAIE and thank her every year. and I think she's a real example of the kinds of people who do this work every single day. And maybe it just seems like a job to them, but they really changed lives. And. It really did change my life. I went to Montreal and studied abroad at McGill University. first time on a plane was to go and live in another country and study in another country. I had to ask somebody what a boarding pass was cause I didn't know. Um, and literally held hands with the random woman next to me cause I was really scared. and. It was a really, it was just transformative, right? I went out. really quiet and anxious, shy, nervous person, and learn that actually thrown into quite challenging situations. You can survive and you can thrive. And some of my closest friends to this day are people who I met when I studied abroad. Some of the values that I hold the dearest now are things that I learned about myself when I was studying abroad. I loved studying abroad and imagine the way that the work that Rachel did changed my life forever. If I could just do that for one person. How incredible would that be? Um, and I've always thought that impacting one life positively means that what we do is worthwhile. And I would like to think that now, the impact that I've had throughout my career has helped many more than one person and that they will each go and feed that forward to one more person. So I think that's how I got into it and it really drives my motivation now is thinking about what the individual students that we're working with and the lives that we can change.

Andy 25:58

That's an amazing story of international education. That's kind of why we started doing this, isn't it, Nick, to hear those? Big up Rachel Jessup. Well done.

Nick 26:08

amazing. You've made me actually a little bit sad. It was when you said that you were holding a stranger's hand when you got on the plane, that made me feel a bit sad for the young Jenny. But it also made me feel a bit sad because I kind of miss those times where you really challenged who you were, these moments of blind faith,

Jenny 26:30

and it's stuff that. You don't even know exists, right? When you're, I was 19 years old, had never been anywhere, didn't know anybody, and walking into a completely unknown situation, and everything was brand new. Absolutely everything was brand new. Apart from the Yorkshire tea in my suitcase, We're so privileged in the work that we do to be able to explore the world and travel around. And I think, There's a real role to remember what that feels like to see it through new eyes. And so, I said that I'd never been abroad as a child, and my parents hadn't either, and I took them on their first ever overseas holiday together, in September Um, and, yeah!

Andy 27:13

What?!

Jenny 27:14

And so it was, again, like, doing that was probably one of the most special experiences of my

Andy 27:20

tell me, tell me where you took, where did you take them? Tell me

Jenny 27:23

Uh, we went to Sardinia,

Andy 27:25

Ugh.

Jenny 27:26

just getting on the plane with my parents and seeing, the excitement of getting on a plane for the first time, the excitement of being in a new place for the first time. Also, the kind of level of discomfort of looking at a menu and not recognizing anything on it and then realizing, oh, this is really good, but I had to take a leap of faith to try something new. cause it's not what you get in Yorkshire. and, I think trying to step back and see those international experiences, that for us probably feel really simple now, that's really quite exciting, and even like the whole theatre of, An airport,

Nick 28:04

tell me they loved it. Did they love it? Have they booked somewhere else?

Jenny 28:08

I don't know. I don't know that somewhere else will happen. there's obviously always situations and circumstances behind why people have not had those experiences in the past. And I don't know that it will happen again, but it was really special when it did happen.

Andy 28:22

Very different from a 19 year old, to your parents doing it at their age. That's a whole new level

Jenny 28:27

Right, right. And I, and I don't think that they would have ever done it by themselves, but being able to support that experience for them, it just makes it really special.

Anything to declare?

Andy 29:09

The next section is called Anything to Declare. This is a free space for you to talk about anything you'd like.

Jenny 29:15

I think one of the things that you had suggested that your listeners might want to hear about was a little bit about the road into a PVC role or a leadership role, which for me it's, it's been a very new experience.

Andy 29:28

to, we need to, I think, prepare the ground a little bit here.

Jenny 29:32

Okay.

Andy 29:32

there's no other way of saying this, Jenny, but you're an overachiever, aren't you? ,I think you're the, the first of, of many, in many things, no doubt, but you are, you're a pro vice chancellor, I would say a lot earlier than most people would be.

Jenny 29:44

Perhaps.

Nick 29:46

Are you asking her age?

Andy 29:47

No, no, not at all. I would never.

Jenny 29:50

you know, I've had this conversation with a few people who've said some of the things and I don't know that necessarily matters when it happens. it's the time that's right for you, but also right for the institution that you're joining and whether you have the right time. Experience and fit. And I think sometimes talking about age or gender in these situations is minimizes the experience and the expertise that you bring. so yes, perhaps, but I don't necessarily know, and I haven't tried to find out because within the situation, I don't know that it matters. No,

Andy 30:20

I agree. And I apologise.

Jenny 30:22

no need to apologize. I've talked to people recently about this concept of wiggly career paths versus really linear paths. when we're talking about higher education outcomes and this. This kind of expectation that a student will do a degree and then instantly go and work in leadership in a field that they've done their degree in. It doesn't always work like that. And it doesn't have to work like that. I had a BA in music and it wasn't until the pandemic that I did my MBA and did anything other than music, but have worked in higher education and got into leadership relatively early on in my career in that space from learning on the job and learning how to do it and. Becoming an expert in the things that I've enjoyed professionally. I think it's okay to not take a linear route,

Andy 31:10

hang on. I'm just writing this down.

Nick 31:11

Yeah. What's interesting about you, Jenny, is that, you describe yourself as a road warrior, and then, okay, you might want to become the director, and manage the road warriors. The fact you've transcended that and gone to PBCI, usually that's seen as an extremely academic position of which I'm not saying you're not, I'm just saying. A lot of professionals don't see that as a possible career route. How do you think you took that step into this particular part of university executive work?

Jenny 31:41

I'm going to answer that slightly left field, I think, by saying, why do people think that they can't, right. And actually, if you think you can do the job and do it well, why would you not put yourself in that position to be successful? And often, the practitioners who have done that work, who've been on the road, who have. been face to face with the students and parents and other influencers in different markets are perfectly positioned to drive this work. and often, particularly in my areas, most of the people that I'm overseeing are professional services staff. and so being able to lead professional services staff from somebody who's had that background, that feels a natural thing for me. Just because historically PVCs have been from an academic background doesn't mean that they always have to be in the future. And I've also been really fortunate to have seen that role modelled in my own previous line management, in previous institutions. And that's been quite inspiring. I don't think I would ever apply for a job if I wasn't going into the interview thinking, well, why wouldn't you hire me? Do you know, my, probably my most random and favorite travel story to tell, is what should have been the best work trip of anyone's life to Hawaii. And it was not, it was dreadful. so, I was going to visit, a couple of universities in Hawaii and I was there for a few meetings, at the end of one week and a few meetings at the beginning of the next. So I had a weekend. It should have been the dream, right? and I was having a great time and then my face started to feel weird. I was like, oh, something's going on with my face. Anyway, I carried on my day and I got back to the hotel and I looked in the mirror. I was like, my face was really droopy at one side and I couldn't feel it. I was like. poking my face a lot. I know it's like completely dead. and I couldn't work out what's going wrong. And I thought, something's, clearly not a stroke. I feel fine, but I just can't feel my face. So I went to the doctor at massive cost, obviously, because we're in the States. And, They gave me this medication and they were like, yeah, we're not 100 percent sure what it is, but this should help it. So anyway, went back to the hotel and looked at the bottle of medication. I mean, they were neon and it said side effects may include death. So obviously I didn't take them. I just, had a cup of tea and went to bed. And then the next day, still droopy face. I went to the university for my meeting. Speaking slightly slurred because I had a really droopy face and they went, Oh, even bitten by a spider. Come into this seminar and we'll tell our students what's happened. We'll explain the spider bite situation to the students because it was a health sciences area. So anyway, I'm there with my droopy face trying to present to students while also being a case study of a spider bite. So then that night I had to fly out to DC. ,and it was January. It was also my birthday. So this is an important caveat here. It was my birthday and I was flying from Hawaii to DC into the heart of a massive snowstorm So I arrived in DC really tired having missed my birthday, which I think does still mean that I'm a year younger than everyone thinks I am. and. face and the student arrived to pick me up two hours late and drove me down to the campus, with horizontal snow coming at us and checked me into the alumni lodge where I was to stay for the night. And it was eerily quiet. There was nobody there. The snow was just pounding. And as we know from our earlier conversation, I have to have a cup of tea before bed. So I went in, turned on the light in the kitchen, made a cup of tea, had my cup of tea, and I was so tired I couldn't find the light switch to turn it off again, so I just went to bed, and got woken up at about 3 o'clock in the morning by the campus police in my bedroom, like, Wake up, wake up! And they thought it was some kind of intruder, which I'm not sure how they thought it was an intruder. Given that I was in my jammies, I had the key, and I had a suitcase, and at this point I was about 23, and I had a teddy bear as well,

Andy 36:03

Aww.

Jenny 36:04

droopy face, and I was like, It was awful.

Andy 36:09

Sometimes the universe is just against you, isn't it?

Jenny 36:12

my birthday.

Nick 36:13

I mean, you couldn't make it up. this is the sign of a true story.

Jenny 36:17

Yeah, it was weird.

Andy 36:18

A few questions. Um, how the hell did you wrangle Hawaii as a work trip?

Jenny 36:25

the University of Roehampton has a large study abroad program with the University of Hawaii. they send about maybe 30 and faculty as well. And that's, it's a longstanding partnership actually. It's a big deal.

Andy 36:36

Have to visit every year, obviously. Um, and the other question I had was, the teddy bear. Uh, still with you?

Jenny 36:42

No, the teddy bear stopped coming a long time ago, but for the first two or three years of travel, it was still quite new, right? I still hadn't really traveled that much. so the teddy bear was definitely my first few years of travel, but sadly, no longer with me. And it never had a name. It was called travel bear because then I wouldn't be too sad if I lost it.

Nick 37:04

That may be the biggest insight into your personality yet. Maybe that's where the spider was hiding that then bit your face.

Jenny 37:19

Sure.

Andy 37:20

revenge.

Jenny 37:21

I would have done like a, an impression of what the droopy face looked like, but it's not really going to come across in a podcast. So yeah, maybe that's one for an actual podcast. In person one day.

Nick 37:34

I think we should pick up on the singing talents. and whether you Would consider doing a duet jingle some point for us.

Andy 37:41

Ah,

Jenny 37:42

Oh, wow. Okay. Wasn't expecting that.

Andy 37:45

guest vocal. You wouldn't be headline. It would be featuring Jenny Wilkinson. Um, but you know, I'm, I'm willing to collab.

Nick 37:53

Musical talent. That's a step up from where we are now. I

Jenny 37:57

there you go. Make the offer.

Andy 37:59

Sounds like we need a contract. Jenny, thank you so much for coming on the show. It's been great to have you.

Jenny 38:04

It's been great talking to you both. Thanks so much for having me.

Andy 38:07

I think I need to go and sit down and have a nice cup of Yorkshire tea now

Nick 38:15

Hello everyone. Thank you so much for listening. As always

38:19

If you want to get in touch you can do so at. Sick bag tales from the departure lounge.com.

Nick 38:25

Safe travels. Tales from the Departure Lounge is a type nine production for the pie.