34. Mark 15 (w/ Special Guest)

Join Allison, Adam, and their special guest Lance as they delve deeper into the biblical account of the crucifixion, exploring key themes, narrating and explaining the events. The discussion revolves around Mark's succinct but potent Gospel account, examining scriptural connections and making enlightened interpretations regarding important elements such as the crown of thorns and the tearing of the temple veil. Listen as they uncover layers of meaning and symbolism in an exercise brimming with faith, insight, and respect for Scripture's depth and complexity.

00:00 Introduction and Special Guest
01:10 Discussion on Teaching Styles and Co-Teaching
02:07 Introduction to the Chapter's Theme
02:27 Discussion on the Crucifixion of Jesus
05:45 The Trials of Jesus
09:22 Jesus' Journey to Crucifixion
14:12 The Crucifixion and Mockery of Jesus
14:46 Simon of Cyrene's Role
29:36 Old Testament References and Color Coding
30:51 Exploring Themes and Symbolism in the Bible
31:49 The Significance of Clothing and Covering in Scripture
33:19 The Crucifixion: Darkness, Sacrifice, and Irony
37:55 The Centurion's Recognition of Jesus as the Son of God
40:06 The Role of Women at the Crucifixion
42:54 The Death and Burial of Jesus

Music used in intro: "Hard Answers" by JK Productions

Transcript

Adam: 0:00

Good morning, Allison. Good

Alison: 0:02

morning, Adam. And I think you need to extend your greeting to beyond just good morning, Allison. You know, I

Adam: 0:08

wasn't sure if I should mention something because this is probably only going to be an audio version only. So those who are listening would have been surprised at this, uh, at this entrance here. But, uh, uh, we have a special guest joining us today.

Alison: 0:21

We do. I think I should introduce him. Today we have my husband, Lance, also known as your BFF, with us today. He has some insights to

Adam: 0:30

share. Lance, this is an audio podcast only, so you do have to speak.

Lance: 0:36

Good morning, Adam.

Alison: 0:39

I did lay some ground rules out there so that we don't get in an argument on this live podcast, so you cannot interrupt us. Because we don't interrupt one another, right? So I told him he can't interrupt me on the podcast. But he has some really smart things to say. So I'm

Adam: 0:51

looking forward to that. What I prefer is I'll just sit back and watch you two banter along through a Bible study and just enjoy it alongside the listeners, so. I don't know,

Alison: 1:00

Adam. I will have to say that in biblical discussions you and I have been more apt to get in arguments than he and I,

Adam: 1:07

so. That is true. That is true. I'm too much of a yes man.

Lance: 1:12

This is my preferred, uh, method of teaching. I like, uh, having multiple people. I would prefer, I've tried getting Allison multiple times to do, uh, study school classes with me. Yeah. She prefers to sit back and listen. I

Alison: 1:26

like to hear him teach. I don't get to hear him teach

Adam: 1:27

very often. I like it. I like to listen too, but he usually has like, uh, 700, uh, slideshow, prepared slideshow over a couple of verses, so. So, I know that I get to help co teach him so that he can take a couple seconds to go through each one of those and figure out which one he wants to pull up for his next point. So, I'm his buffer, I think, in those co teaching moments. I love that.

Lance: 1:48

He keeps

Alison: 1:48

me on point. Yeah, you guys do a good job co teaching. I've been in statin classes. And then whenever I'm done hearing y'all talk because y'all have gone too long. My signal is to close my Bible. And then he knows if I close my Bible, he has to wind it

Adam: 2:01

up. That is the signal I need. That's good to know. Okay, I'm gonna use that signal too. So,

Alison: 2:07

well, this is a really familiar chapter today, so I'm kind of glad we have an unfamiliar guest with us. Um, there's always new things to learn about God's Word, but I'm excited to To be able to mix it up a little bit so that we don't take for granted a passage that we've heard a lot.

Adam: 2:22

Yeah, and what is that passage? We're, we're winding down here in Mark.

Alison: 2:27

Yeah, so we're already in Mark chapter 15 and we're talking today about the crucifixion of Jesus. Now Lance, have you ever

Adam: 2:35

heard the story of the, the crucifixion of Jesus? Yes, a few times. Okay, that is uh, like priority number one to make sure if you want to be on a Bible podcast.

Lance: 2:51

So I like that, uh, one of the things about Mark is he's very, to the point, very brief. And even in this, uh, passage about, You know, the, uh, trial before Pilate, the, uh, some of the last trials that Jesus goes through, and then his beating, his flogging, the, uh, crucifixion itself. Still, he does it in 41 verses, I believe, was the actual... Content of the crucifixion and everything. So, I mean, something that we could read in probably a minute, minute and a half, uh, there are other gospels that go way more in detail. I mean, like, uh, the gospel of John in itself, just the interaction between Jesus and Pilate. Uh, John goes way in depth on it. I mean, you have the back and forth commentary between the two and stuff. Mark doesn't do that. I mean, he, and do you want to tell our listeners maybe why, like, what was the focus of Mark?

Adam: 3:53

Well, I, I think the focus for sure is in who Jesus is and what he's doing as a Messiah and, and how he's, uh, you know, he's not trying to prove by his. Uh, by his teachings and his words, by Jesus's actions, uh, what Jesus is doing. Is that along the same lines of what you're thinking? Yeah. And I think too

Alison: 4:12

that the, the original readers of Mark were in crisis. Mm-Hmm.. And they needed him to get right to the point. Um, and so we see him do that a lot. And because we know that the original readers were experiencing heavy persecution in Rome. Yeah. And, um, they didn't need extra details. Of course. No detail in any of the gospel. They all give us the biblical account of what happened to Jesus, but to those original readers receiving this gospel as the first circulated good news of Jesus, um, they were in crisis. And I think that

Adam: 4:44

applies to those followers that are in around 60 something AD, you know, uh, under that Roman led world. Uh, crucifixion, they all had that experience in their mind of what, what a Roman crucifixion looks like. They were, that's something that the Romans were well known for. So, Mark, Mark can lack the details of what, what goes into the, the, uh, you know, the crucifixion portion itself because those readers would, would be well aware.

Alison: 5:12

So the chapter opens, um, like chapter 14 ends when Peter has denied Jesus in a roaster crow signaling a new day. And so we're going to go right into that new day. Romans were known for conducting business at the very early dawn hours. So the fact that, um, it looks like the Sanhedrin, the leaders of the Sanhedrin brought Jesus from their religious trial to a civic trial there in front of Pilate very early in the morning would have been consistent with what we know of how Rome operated business in Bible times. And so in verses 1 through 15, if it's okay with you boys, I'll just, um, kind of summarize that. Um, Jesus goes before Pilate and, um, it's interesting because when he goes before the religious leaders at the Sanhedrin, they accuse him of making himself divine, of blasphemy against God, of being the son of God. I mean, that was a religious charge that would have incited anger among the Jewish people, but when they bring him to Pilate... They've got to change their tune. All of these trials are unfair in so many ways. But they've got to, um, give him a different charge because Pilate would not have cared if Jesus had equated himself with a god. In fact, Romans had hundreds of gods. And a god, a Jewish god, would have been no threat in And so instead, they change the charge to a political charge, and they accuse him of calling himself the king of the Jews, something they know is going to incite a reaction in Peter. Um, and then they, the funny thing about that is that, They were actually accusing him of being the very thing that they were angry at him for not being because if you remember, they wanted him to be that political power who was going to come save them from, um, Roman occupation and Roman occupation. Um, Dominion over them, and then they got angry that he didn't do it, and so they bring him to Pilate and accuse him of the very thing that they were angry at him for not doing, which is ironic, and I think irony is a big theme in this chapter. We see a lot of it.

Adam: 7:21

Yeah, I was going to say that, that ironic theme will come back into play with the, with the mockers, uh, when he's on the cross, I think we can come back to that, but, um, very interesting. Anything to add to that? Lance, since we have a, we're, we're not used to having a third person to be able to, you know, bump ideas off of.

Lance: 7:38

No, and I agree with you with your point about, uh, his briefment on, uh, you know, he didn't go into detail on the actual crucifixion. He didn't tell of, uh, step by step because he didn't have to. Yeah. And, uh, But, uh, you know, this is the, uh, I mean, Jesus saw, uh, Jesus had six trials.

Adam: 8:04

Sorry. Yeah. Six trials that you discover when reading throughout the other, uh, gospels together, you, you, you kind of get a really the vastness of his six different trials, ultimately. Yes.

Lance: 8:16

And, uh, we see that all of them were illegal. To some degree, they had rules back then, just like we do now to protect, uh, the accused. I mean, you didn't want somebody just being able to be falsely accused. So there were a number of ways that they broke their own rules, which is very ironic because. The, uh, religious leaders were known for trying to make everyone, you know, follow their rules. And that was how, you know, you were gonna save yourself was the rules.

Alison: 8:47

So we can see in this first passage that Pallett didn't really want to, um, sentence Jesus to death, to have Jesus crucified. Um, in fact, He, the Bible says that he knew that it was because of envy, not because of, um, accurate accusations that the Jews wanted him crucified. And I think the reason that he knew that, because he was smart enough to know, he had been in this position for around 11 years, um, as, over this province. And it was not, A position that was coveted among the Roman government. Um, and so he had dealt with Jews a lot. Um, a lot of them had groveled, you know, and begged for their lives. And Jesus acted so differently in his presence. And so I think that caused alarm and, and called attention to the situation. But also, he knew enough to know that if this man was really standing up to be king of the Jews, someone who could potentially Be effective in freeing them from Roman occupation, then they would have loved him, not hated him. And so, Pilate knew there was more to the story, because he had been with the Jews and over them for a long time, and he knew how things worked. Um, but ultimately he gives over their demands, not because he agreed with them, um, but he just, he agrees to crucify them because he didn't want a riot, which wouldn't have been good for his career had Jews rioted.

Adam: 10:07

Yeah. I,

Lance: 10:07

I read more than one place that, uh, we believe that Pilate was basically an anti Semite. I mean, he, uh, you know, did not trust the Jews. He did, he was very suspicious of them. So the fact that they were so willingly bringing. This guy to them probably just set off the little spotty sense and he, you know, he knew something

Adam: 10:31

was up. Yeah, I had read the same thing that he had generally would treat the Jews with disdain, but ultimately would get right to that to that because he wanted to keep them happy. He wanted to keep from an insurrection. You know, the, the, there were tumultuous times with regards to, you know, the Jewish leaders and, and the Roman, uh, lead leaders. And, and I think the way that those partnerships worked is Rome would bring in their culture, but also allow, you know, you know, the Jews to kind of continue to, to work and practice in the ways that they were used to. Um, and so for, for him to kind of keep those political. Rivals, like keep those little insurrections down to a minimum actually speaks better for him at that moment. So that's kind of his whole job in the first

Lance: 11:12

place. Well, think of the place that he was at. I mean, Jerusalem, the city that he was, uh, assigned to had the largest temple in the known world at the time. And I mean, that means all of that wasn't just a temple as we think of it now with brother Jason being our leader or whatever. I mean. It was their political and, you know, it was the center of everything for him and, uh, the city, I mean, I'm sorry, the temple at the time took over. I can't remember. It was either a fourth or a sixth of the city itself. I mean, we're talking a huge complex with a lot of, uh, power in itself. So yeah, the last thing. Pilot wanted to do was upset that

Adam: 11:58

well, it's believed that he actually, he, he spent his time in his palace up as ancestry and maritime, which was, uh, a coastal, uh, like a massive coastal, coastal, um, uh, palace. And so for him to even be here in Jerusalem in the first place was because it was such a busy time, uh, in the Jews during Passover and all that. And so he's, he's here even out away from his home, trying to play politics and all of that. in, in this region to keep the peace, uh, in the name of Rome and, and that kind of thing. So

Alison: 12:30

as a result, Pilate sentences Jesus to crucifixion, but we know that it wasn't Pilate's decision. It was God's plan all along. And we can see, um, that everything that happens from the beginning of Mark to the end of it is all in God's sovereign plan.

Lance: 12:45

Well, yeah, because throughout it, Pilate wanted a way out. I mean, we never see him be. A real strong leader, real dynamic person. He constantly was trying to get someone else to make the decisions for him. Uh, which is the total opposite of Jesus. Jesus never ran. He never evaded. I mean, he stood his ground, answered questions directly and briefly, but, you know,

Adam: 13:08

he never ran. Well, something that just came to mind too, is one of the major themes kind of comes to a head here all throughout scripture. And that, that big theme is authority and how authority is working. Well, if you look at these different trials. What does it show about the total authority of the men? Each one of these groups had authority to a certain point, but could not complete it without the use of another. You know, uh, the Jews, Jewish leaders could not, you know, ultimately crucify him or condemn him to death without the use of the Romans. The Romans, uh, Especially Pilate here is specifically doing everything to keep his control and authority, but, but it's the, it's the Roman, it's the Jewish leaders that will ultimately kind of drive his decision making. Um, so they're kind of playing off each other, and then the question is, well, where's the actual authority here? Meanwhile, the one who, who has the authority is, is fulfilling that Isaiah, uh, you know, prophecy of he, he's remaining silent, you know, at the end, at the end of the day, he's remaining silent in, in judgment.

Alison: 14:06

And we're going to see. Jesus demonstrate that absolute authority several times in the remainder of this chapter. And so I'm going to read Mark chapter 15 verses 16 through 21. And then we can talk about those verses a little bit. The soldiers led him away into the palace that is the governor's residence and called the whole company together. They dressed him in a purple robe, twisted together a crown of thorns, and put it on him. And they began to salute him, Hail, King of the Jews. They were hitting him on the head with a stick and spitting on him, getting down on their knees. They were paying him homage. After they had mocked him, they stripped him of the purple robe and put his clothes on him. They led him out to crucify him. They forced a man coming in from the country who was passing by to carry Jesus cross. He was Simon of Cyrene, the father of Alexander and Rufus. So one of the things when I imagined this scene. I kind of, I know there was a big crowd in Jerusalem, but in my mind's eye, I think of like, a few soldiers, um, you know, beating Jesus, like a smaller group of concerned Romans or Roman soldiers in control. But the word, um, there that I read in that first verse, the whole company, that's actually, um, an official military term and it makes means a sixth of a legion. Um, some translations use the word cohort in the place of company there, but it is 600 soldiers because a legion is 6, 000 soldiers. And so attempt that that would be 600 soldiers. So when we imagine the scene of Jesus getting beaten and spit on, it was him against 600. armed military soldiers.

Adam: 15:42

Yeah.

Lance: 15:43

It also stuck out to me. Go ahead. Go ahead. It also stuck out to me that, uh, you know, we talked earlier about how brief Mark is and goes through this whole passage and like 41 verses. But yet, Uh, there's five of them that are dedicated to, uh, just how Jesus was mocked. I mean, like, you know, whenever we start talking about the soldiers and what Allison just read, you know, about all that, uh, I don't know, I mean, what is that? One eighth of the whole passage is about. Just him getting mocked. Yeah,

Adam: 16:22

yeah, I think it's interesting that I think Mark is choosing those, the, the things that he's obviously, um, writing down very intentionally. You know, here we are, we're seeing again, sort of an inclusio between his entrance into Jerusalem being hailed as, As a king, um, with the Palm, Palm Sunday situation and, uh, here he's being crowned and, and hailed as a king again, in a mockery way. Um, one of the things that, uh, uh, that has really just stuck out to me the, this last, this past year, I think I brought it up in a previous episode is that. Is the fact that they crowned him, um, with, with, um, a physical representation of the original curse in Adam and Eve, which was the thorns of the souls. Yeah. Which I had, that was one of those that like, you know, I read a million times, but I'd never thought about the fact that, um, Oh, of course it was that. Of course it was a crown of thorns, you know, this physical representation of that curse.

Lance: 17:17

Something that was produced as a result of man's sin. Yeah.

Alison: 17:22

And we know from Deuteronomy that the Old Testament calls anyone who dies on a tree or hangs on a tree as a curse. And so we can see so many echoes of how Jesus was taking our punishment, taking the curse of sin. Upon himself for us, um, and we know that he literally carried his cross, um, at least as long as he could, um, he would have carried a lot of times when we see in art, we see the full cross, you know, Jesus kind of bearing the full cross on his back, but it would have probably been the cross being because, um, it's likely that the upright already Stood in a position there on the hill in which he was crucified and he carried the crossbeam. But even so, um, it probably weighed around a hundred pounds. Really. And we know from scripture that after he had been flogged, um, and beaten, which meant to weaken, um, a criminal or a person who was being executed, I mean, it was meant to weaken them to kind of cut down on how long they hung on the cross. Still, the Romans wanted the Jesus to arrive alive to the crucifixion because, um, that would have kind of spoiled the sport for those who wanted to watch the human crucifixion take place. So they wanted to make sure that he arrived alive. And so when it seemed like he was getting too weak to continue to carry that crossbeam, they called on Simon of Cyrene. And this is probably one of my favorite parts. In this passage, and so I'm going to let you guys talk on it because I know that you'll know about this too, but I just love that he stops and he names, Mark stops and names Simon of Cyrene, but not just Simon of Cyrene, but his sons. So

Lance: 18:55

first, before we get into that, I mean, talking about the flogging, I mean, it's not just. Whipped, which that alone would be bad. I mean, I remember a few years back there was a kid that, uh, spray painted, uh, some cars and buildings and stuff over, uh, in one of the Southeast Asian countries and he got caned and that was a big deal and they were talking about how painful it was and all, this is so much worse than that. Yeah. I mean, this is like. Your skin literally getting ripped and they were, they have evidence that, uh, bones would be seen through the gashing wounds that were, you know, left, uh, or the gaping wounds, uh, Nelson's right at that point, you're still carrying a large load. The rest of the way, uh, which there's an, a lot of analogy we can do with that as well. But, uh, one thing I didn't think about until I was listening to a podcast, uh, this week about this was we know Jesus went to Jerusalem a number of times. John talks about him going to, I can't remember if it was two or three different Passovers there. And, uh, so we know

Adam: 20:07

that it has, it'd have to be three, three, one for each one of his ministries. He'd go back. Yeah. One

Lance: 20:13

for each one. I mean, so, uh, he was in and out of Jerusalem a lot. And how many times did he pass? And see those uprights of the cross sitting there knowing down the road i'm gonna be on that

Alison: 20:28

I think it's really interesting that you bring that up because one of the things that I actually thought about in studying this chapter Is we always thought about jesus bearing the weight of the knowledge of what he was going to do his whole time on earth Yeah, but it really struck me this week that he he bore the knowledge of what He was going to have to do for us since the beginning of time. Because this wasn't a plan B for God. This was always God's plan. And you know, we see throughout the Old Testament that cyclical, um, thing with the Israelites disobeying God and God drawing them back in in His graciousness and allowing difficult things to happen as a, so that they would come back to Him. And each time that that happened, even throughout the Old Testament. That was an act of love on Jesus's behalf because had God decided to just give up and start over, like, we think, why did he not, in the Old Testament, time and time and time and time again, he forgave them and forgave them and forgave them. Then, you know, if he would have just started over, Jesus wouldn't have had to go through all of this and Jesus had that knowledge and he bore that weight of that knowledge from not just his inception of his earthly ministry, but from the beginning of time, he knew he was going to do this for us.

Adam: 21:41

Yeah. So why don't you tell us a little bit more about, uh, Simon of Cyrene and his two sons, Alexander and Rufus.

Alison: 21:49

I know, I'm so glad you guys didn't steal my thunder. I was trying to be kind, but Lance backed up on me and talked about something else instead. So the cool thing is, um, we don't know a ton about Simon of Cyrene, um, and we don't know a lot for sure, but what we think is pretty amazing. Simon of Cyrene, Cyrene would have been like in the northern tip of Africa. And the scripture says that he was coming in from out of the country into the area. Um, out, and he doesn't, it doesn't mean necessarily out of, like, into the nation, into the, out from the countryside. So he was staying in the countryside. So we can assume that he was probably there for Passover. Um, and so he was coming in with his two sons and he walks up on this situation of Jesus being, um, brought to his crucifixion and he gets compelled or seized, some translations say, to carry Jesus's cross beam when he can't anymore. And it wasn't like, Simon volunteered. The wording doesn't really suggest this was a voluntary thing. But instead he, he took the heavy cross beam that Lance pointed out earlier when we were talking about this. Probably was covered with blood. Like it wasn't, it was a difficult job. It was a dirty job. Um, it was a humiliating job to have to, um, take part in Jesus's humiliation. Um, but then it mentions that Cyrene had some sons, and I think that it mentions them, they must have been with him, they must have been watching, and what we know from Romans, um, chapter 16, verse 13, is that there is a man named Rufus, who is named in Romans 16, 13, who was a leader in the church in Rome in 8050s, and um, Most scholars believe, and I just have to agree with them, that Mark included Simon of Cyrene, the father of Rufus, because as a result, I think, of this, Rufus and Simon and his family became Christians. Yeah. And then Rufus went on. to lead in the Christian church in Rome. And, um, what a beautiful testimony. Um, what a beautiful result of Jesus suffering, just immediately. I mean, obviously, the result of Jesus suffering is nothing but beauty for us and every person who places their faith in Him. But what a beautiful picture of that beauty lived out in Simon. In, in Alexander and in Rufus, um, and that being compelled to carry his cross, um, Jesus drew him in his grace.

Adam: 24:17

Yeah. It's amazing.

Lance: 24:20

So I took from this story, this part of the story that, uh, so often the unplanned inconveniences often make the greatest impact with the longest effect. And I mean, we see that a lot in the Bible, but you know, even like. One of Allison and our favorite things to do is whenever we go on vacations. You know, you do plan out some of the big things, but it's always those unplanned things that we stumble upon that stick out to us. Yeah. Uh, if you ask us about pretty much any of our trips, the things that come to mind first are going to be the things that, uh, we didn't think through. And yeah, but you've got to be willing

Adam: 25:04

and open and You know, it's kind of like, uh, when you, when you had, uh, infants and you, you spent all this time and to figure out like what to get them for like a birthday or Christmas gift or something, and you put all this energy and effort into it, and then you get it to them, and then all they want to play with is the box. Yeah. But the box was just as fun to watch their joy and excitement, so. Yeah,

Alison: 25:25

we never know what instrument or what person God's going to use and that's one thing that makes his story amazing and exciting. Yeah So let's keep reading. Um in Mark chapter 15, and I think I stopped off in verse 21 So which one of you wants to read Mark chapter 15 22 through 32?

Adam: 25:46

I'll do it All right, uh, check, uh, verse 22. And they brought him to the place called Golgotha, which means the place of a skull. And they offered him wine mixed with myrrh, but he did not take it. And they crucified him, and they divided his garments among them, casting lots for them to decide what each should take. And it was the third hour when they crucified him, and the inscription on the charge, uh, sorry, and the inscription of the charge against him read, The King of the Jews, and with him they crucified two robbers, one on his right and one on his left. And those who passed by deraided him, wagging their heads and saying, Aha, you who would destroy the temple and rebuild it in three days, save yourself. Come down from that cross. So also the chief priests and the scribes mocked him to one another, saying, He saved others, he cannot save himself. Let the Christ, the King of Israel, come down now. From the cross that we may see and believe those who were crucified with him also reviled him.

Alison: 26:52

Wow. So, um, I think it's interesting because you read verses 22 through 32, but you didn't read a verse 28

Adam: 27:02

a lot. That's why I looked weird. No, you didn't

Alison: 27:05

skip one. Because, is there a verse 28 in your Bible?

Adam: 27:09

You're right, you're right. Yeah,

Alison: 27:11

so I just wanted to point that out in case some of our listeners were following along in maybe a King James version or a New King James version. Those versions do have a verse 28. But some of the more modern translations like C-S-B-E-S-V, they don't include verse 28. And I think I kind of agree with not including it. The verse, if it's included, says, and the scripture was fulfilled, which said he humbled himself with the transgressors. And that verse doesn't appear in a lot of the earlier manuscripts. And, um, a lot of, um, scholars believe it's because it was a Scrabble edition later on. Um, and it's not incorrect, in fact, it says that verse in Luke, but we think it may not have been original to Mark because Mark's original language, um, audience wasn't Jews. They were Gentiles, yeah. And so he probably hadn't felt the need to, to qualify the fulfillment of specific prophecies, although he does show how Jesus fulfilled specific prophecies, but he doesn't always spell them out because that wasn't his audience. I think that's a conversation that, so I'm wondering why that was

Adam: 28:12

members. Yeah. And I think that's a conversation that, we'll, we'll get to get into a little bit more in this, uh, next podcast episode. Um, because there's a little bit larger section there, um, which, uh, we can kind of talk about a little bit more, uh, as well. But, but very keen catch there. I like that. Yeah.. Lance: So there were a lot of chapter that were fulfilled. Mm-Hmm., uh. I would say if you're going to go back and read just one or two, go and read Psalms 22 or Isaiah 53. Psalms 22 is crazy how directly parallel it is to the crucifixion story. But I'll give you a few of them that, uh, that we saw here. So Psalms 22 talks about his hands and feet being pierced some, I'm sorry, Isaiah 53, 12. He was killed alongside criminals and counted among the rebels. Psalm 69. He was offered a drink. Soldiers cast lots according to Psalms 22. Isaiah 53, he would have been buried with the rich and we'll see that at the end of the chapter and Amos said that the sun will go down at noon on the day the Messiah dies. So all kinds of references to the old testament. Yeah. Yeah. And there's more that's just some that I wrote down. That's like, uh Is that why

Alison: 29:41

you and Adam are friends, Lance? Because he loves to make references to the Old Testament. Did you do that just for him?

Adam: 29:48

No, Lance Lance tries to get me into the New Testament more often. He tries to get me back into the New Testament more often. You know,

Alison: 29:55

it just occurred to me, he is responsible for us being in the Book of Mark. Because he Yes, yes. He suggested there was a New Testament to the Bible that we ought

Adam: 30:02

to defer.

Lance: 30:04

So I'm like, Adam, we both color code our notes and, uh, that's really not from either one. We have both independently. We're color coders, but, uh, I do have an Adam color now, uh, if I'm referencing back to another part of the Bible, uh, it's a certain color of yellow. Well, actually it's gold since Adam is an Indian and he's wearing his Indian shirt today. It really is black and gold.

Adam: 30:30

Well, that works in two ways because I, I went to school in Indiana and our colors as Avon Orioles were black and gold. So there you go. Okay. Okay. Good try.

Alison: 30:40

I thought he missed that opportunity.

Adam: 30:43

No, I know well enough. I knew that wasn't correct. Um, uh, there's, there's so many other ways. So, like, there's the obvious, um, quotations and fulfillments from Psalm 22 and Isaiah 53. But also there's so many little, um, little rabbit holes of themes that just, if, if you paying attention to it, you know, um, and you understand that the authors are doing it just really, uh, you know, kind of make themselves apparent and one was like the casting lots for the clothes and stuff. That's a ultimate fulfillment, but what, but why, like, why can you think of like a reason why that would be a nod to something early in the. In the scripture at all. Hmm. I know. Question,

Alison: 31:28

like, are you talking about I know that's a pretty good

Adam: 31:30

question because I haven't, so this is a, this is a thematic, um, this is a theme that, that, that, uh, if you're aware of it from the start and you start reading scripture on that 500 time when you're 80 years old, um, as you start to catch these extra themes that maybe you don't pay attention to, but obviously would you say that, um. Covering and clothing is going to be was important in the first couple chapters of Genesis. Yeah, that's

Alison: 31:54

where I was thinking Yeah, that when uh, you know God called Adam and Eve out of the garden and they covered themselves in

Adam: 32:00

shame So so the hints you you when you start to wonder if these are themes or go to like those earliest stories and obviously That would be one of the earliest And the, and the idea was they realized they were naked. They realized that it was shameful. They tried to cover it themselves, but it was, uh, not an appropriate amount of covering for them. Like obviously fig leaves are going to wear and tear or whatever. So what Jesus, or what God's going to do is he's going to, he's going to do the very first shedding of a blood of an animal, innocent animal to cover this multitudes of. that shame that Adam and Eve have. So then when you notice that and you start to read all of the different narratives where covering is used, um, to help, uh, cover shame or, or cover guilt, um, to, to deceive and also, um, coverings will be a way that, uh, will show honor. Like Joseph being covered in new clothes and rings when he he's lifted up in the second command and stuff like that. As you go through all of those narratives, you start to realize it's saying something. And so what's happening is while they're physically shaming the son of God, they're also using this. theme, uh, in casting lots for, uh, the thing that God would, would have, um, you know, blessed man with in, as a result of their sin and their shame, um, that, that permanent covering. And so there, there's a lot of little things like that. Um, the other one that's in that section is that the, the darkness, um, if you caught on to the many, many Exodus themes that you've been reading in Mark. You saw, uh, one of them, which a lot of people don't necessarily connect with, which was the release of Barabbas. Well, if you're looking during the time of the Exodus, and they're wandering in the wilderness, and Moses getting the law, and that kind of thing, he's talking about the sacrifice of the, the, you know, the lamb. Well, you're supposed to, there's supposed to be two, um, Two animals, uh, at the time of choosing of the sacrifice. And one would be considered that scapegoat, the one that's going to be sent out into the wilderness and Leviticus. Um, and here, what you see is you see, um, you see both men offered Jesus and the scapegoat. And one will be chosen for sacrifice. And the other one will be sent out, uh, with the guilt and the shame of his insurrectionist, murderous type in Braavos. And the darkness was the last, um, plague before the death of the firstborn. And so now we have. The last plague in the exodus taking place darkness on the cross and then the death of the first of the firstborn.

Alison: 34:25

And we know that the darkness when Jesus was crucified lasted three hours. Yeah, and we know the darkness in the last plague lasted three days. Um, so I do think that there is definitely meant to be a connection there, um, because, you know, the Passover, they were celebrating it at this time when Jesus was crucified and it marked, um, when God's people were, um, received their freedom and so they're their freedom in Jesus. You talked

Adam: 34:52

about irony earlier. Uh, the irony that I was going to talk about, um, was the irony of what the chief. You know, when he's the one of the three people who are three, there's three mockers. There's the pacifiers, the chief priests and the scribes, and then the robbers themselves in this narrative mock them. But the chief priests, they say, look, they're saying to one of them, he saved others, uh, but he can't save himself. Let, let the Christ, the King of Israel come down now from the cross that we may all see and believe. And the irony in that is that in not coming down from the cross is actually what's going to cause them to see and believe and to save, uh, others. And so it's just funny that what they say is actually ironic.

Alison: 35:38

So what, what they say All throughout this chapter that's meant to be an insult, meant to be a false accusation, meant to be a lie, is actually just them speaking truth the whole time.

Lance: 35:50

But that goes back to one of the major themes we've seen throughout Mark, which is the, we've been calling it the inside outside theme, but it could also be a backwards theme. I mean, like those that you thought would be in his kingdom inside the little close knit group. They were actually outside his family, his close friends and stuff, but yet Gentiles and people that would be deemed dirty or unclean, they were allowed to see, uh, behind the veil, so to speak, you know, they were inside and then it continues here, which would Allison just said, you know what I mean? And so instead of inside outside, now it's just. The opposite of what you would

Adam: 36:30

expect. That actually creates the perfect, uh, bridge to the very next section, the inside outside theme. Because there are, which is actually a theme for those who are listening. I don't think we've actually brought that up in the podcast. But in the many conversations and the co teachings that Lance and I do with our college age class and our high schoolers, uh, and middle schoolers is, uh, we, that's another theme, an inside outside. So go back and read Mark and look at that. But, that theme is about to come to play in the action that, in one of the actions that take place, um, here at, at his, uh, official death in the next section. Oh, perfect.

Alison: 37:04

You can read it because it has a section that is in a different language. You're going to make me Yeah, it's Okay, okay.

Adam: 37:09

You're excited about it. So, verse, uh, 33, and I'll just read through 41, or should I just go to, I'll go to 39, if that's okay. Okay, sure. Um, 33, And when the sixth hour had come, there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour. And at the ninth hour, Jesus cried out with a loud voice, Eloi, Eloi, lima sabachthani? Which means, My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? And some of the bystanders hearing it said, Behold, he's calling Elijah. And someone ran, uh, and filled a sponge with sour wine, put it on a reed and gave it to him to drink saying, uh, wait, let us see whether Elijah will come, come to take him down. And Jesus uttered with a loud cry and breathed his last. The curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. And when the centurion who stood facing them saw that this, saw that in this way, he breathed his last, he said, truly, this man was the son of God.

Alison: 38:05

We probably could have done a whole podcast just on that passage, right? Yes. There's a lot there, but, um, one of the things that I want to point out to our listeners is that when Jesus cut out, my God, my God, why have you forsaken me? First of all, that's a feeling that none of us have ever experienced or will ever experience thanks to Jesus. He literally experienced hell in that moment because hell is separation from God and God, you know, separated himself from Jesus. And so Jesus suffered hell on our behalf. But, um, he also was quoting from a passage, um, it's Psalm 22, 1. My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? And David says that, obviously, not forsaken in the same way as Jesus. But he says that, um, as a cry of abandonment. And to the father, but I think it's cool that if we look at Psalm 22 one, it does begin with why have you abandoned me, but it ends with victory. Psalm 22 ends with verses 30 and 31 saying, it shall be told of the people to the coming generation. They shall come and proclaim his righteousness to a people yet unborn that he has done it. I don't think that David knew when he was penning that Psalm about himself how beautifully that would be fulfilled in Jesus. Stop stealing

Lance: 39:27

from my notes.

Adam: 39:31

Read

Lance: 39:31

your own. I'm

Adam: 39:33

not reading your notes. I said no arguments.

Lance: 39:37

But yeah, that was one of my favorite things that I found was that Psalms 22 starts with abandonment and ends with victory. She's 100 percent right. I mean, like we said earlier. It is crazy how parallel Psalms 22 written, by the way, at least a thousand years prior to this event. I mean, a thousand years prior to Jesus even being born, Psalms is written and yet we can just draw direct parallels to, uh, his crucifixion event.

Adam: 40:06

Yeah. So there's some really strange details in this, in this particular passage. Uh, the, the detail with the, uh, pastor Byers and. Figuring out what's happening with this whole Elijah situation, um, there's some different opinions about why, why they're saying that the first one is that the LOA kind of sounds similar in, in, um, the Aramaic, uh, to Elijah, um, but then also that these Jews are, are, are looking for this return of Elijah, which is actually something they've dealt with in the past previously, um, in the, in this Particular, uh, book, but it is of course, a little bit ironic that, um, the, the, uh, the whole point of the coming back of Elijah is to usher in the kingdom of God, the new, the new, uh, Messiah, you know, all of that. And meanwhile, he, of course he is. That, that figure, um, but I, when I went to Israel, uh, a couple of years ago, uh, something was brought up with the idea of the sour wine, um, which, uh, I thought was interesting and, and it fits with the, um, kind of what we talked about with the Passover meals. And the idea is that it, at the traditional Seder, which is that meal that the Jews would, would take, they would have a place that was open and, and nobody could sit at it. Um, that was to represent that coming, the return of Elijah, you know, ultimately for the Messiah. Um, and at that place setting, according to those, uh, when, when we went to Israel, our tour guide was explaining at that place setting, traditionally, there would be a cup of sour wine, and it would be that wine that nobody would drink because if you drink, or it meant it represented the wrath of God. Ultimately, and so, uh, like it's almost like Mark is, is like nodding at traditional, like, uh, Jewish, uh, held beliefs that weren't necessarily scripture, but more part of that added in man tradition, uh, when he says that he gave them, uh, some sour wine on, on a read, but I also think there's a, uh, one extra layer there that, That relates back to that exodus and you're getting words like the reed, you're getting words like, um, like, uh, the water turning to wine and, and, uh, like the food souring and all of this. And I think that all of this is working together, um, to, to point out that what Jesus is doing is to remind us of that exodus narrative that leading us out of slavery and into a new life. Which of course, um, uh, would, would really back even further, but I won't go down that rabbit hole. Uh, what are your thoughts on that? Uh, as

Lance: 42:43

far as... Go ahead.

Alison: 42:48

Oh, he's giving me the mic. I didn't want to interrupt you, Lance. I think that, um, I think, Adam, that your connection to the Exodus and to the fact that, um, There are some tiebacks to how God brought his people into freedom. It really is on point with how John continues to describe this scene when Jesus took the sour wine. Because we know that from the Gospel of John right after John took a sip of sour wine, or excuse me, Jesus took a sip of sour wine, that he said, it Is finished. Yeah. And I think that was the proclamation of what God had been doing throughout the Old Testament throughout all of God's story. Jesus just completed the work of extending grace on the cross. I mean, he's going to show his power over death and his resurrection. Um, but I love that, that those words that he uttered right after the sour wine. It is finished. They give credibility to what you're equating as the work being finished of God, releasing his people into freedom. Well, and it is

Lance: 43:53

a grace to us. And one thing that you see often is people saying exactly what the, uh, the religious leaders, the chief priests and stuff at the time were hollering at him. Well, why can't he save himself? Well, the thing is, if he would have saved himself, he wouldn't have been able to, he wouldn't have saved us. I mean, we had to have that.

Adam: 44:16

So, uh, there's one more, uh, uh, I think beautiful picture that again, this is one of those alongside like the crown of thorns that had just really like hit me this year. And it's the fact that, uh, out of all the ways that she just could have been, uh, you know, uh, tortured and killed ultimately. It's so fitting that he was tortured and killed on a dead tree, um, and given sour fruit ultimately as his last thing. And I think that's just such the brilliance in God pointing that this whole story from the start between the, the, the two trees, you know, uh, one will bring life and one will bring death ultimately, and here we are bringing death. You know, through another representation, physical representation of the son of God hanging on a tree, which is what I believe Paul says in Corinthians, or maybe as Peter talks about that Jesus's death on that tree, uh, further tying that together. Um, there's one more cool thing that I think is fun in Mark. And then I'll stop. Uh, I love this section and it ties in, one, the inside outside theme. Because the, did you, did you catch the, how that inside outside theme is brought to fulfillment in one of the two major things that happens right at his death? What, what, what, well, the veil is torn. Yeah. From top to bottom. What do scholars say that represents ultimately? What does this veil? Yeah,

Alison: 45:38

so this means, well this veil is a very thick curtain that separates, um, everyone from the Holy of Holies, um, in God's temple. Um, so basically it separates people from the presence of God. Yeah. And, um, it was torn from top to bottom. Um, you know, definitely is a sign that God was the one responsible

Lance: 45:58

for Terry. Yeah. Because it wasn't as small. Not only was it. Thick. Like she's saying, it was very tall. And, uh, I mean, one of the amazing things about the Bible is how detailed it is in some things. And it was very detailed back in, uh, uh, the Old Testament of the size and the dimensions of the temple itself. So we know it was extremely tall. No one would have been able to sneak up and get to the top of the veil secretly. And they, first off, you wouldn't have been able to be allowed inside of. The Holy room anyways, but the fact that it tore from top to bottom, like Alison said, it had to be God. I mean, if a man would have done it, it would have been from the bottom up. Uh, the other thing is it was too thick. I mean, I've tried to tear t shirts before and occasionally you can do it, but then there are times where you hit the thick part around the neck and stuff. And I mean. I'm going, I think I'm pretty strong and I can't even tear this old shirt and this is way thicker than a shirt. I mean, think of even a curtain in your house, you know, so it was definitely by God, but the main thing is it's not just the supernatural, Oh, it got torn by itself or whatever. It was what Allison's saying, what it represented. I mean, that was a representation of, uh, a separation between us and God. Now that's no longer, uh, there, we were able to go to him directly. We don't have to sacrifice and have someone as our intermediary. Jesus is that intermediary. Yeah. But, uh, you know what I mean? Sin separated us from God. That's the other way to, I mean, we can bring it full circle and we can only go to God now because of Jesus bridging that

Adam: 47:42

gap. Yeah, previously it would require a high priest who will once a year make atonement for, for the greatness of the sin of the, of the people, uh, in their sacrifice. Now we have the high priests who are going to make that same sacrifice, but of the son of God and that tearing of the veil is going to close in or, uh, close that, close that theme, um, of the inside and outside, who can be inside, who's outside will now all have, uh, all are, uh, able to, to, uh, come inside. But what's, what's really incredible about this is that it, it actually forms an inclusio, which is sort of like that cut, that bookend, um, to the, how the gospel of Mark opened. And the gospel of Mark opened with, um, one of the first actions with Jesus is his baptism. And in his baptism, what, what do we see? We see, uh, he's dunked in the water. We see the heavens tear open. We see this, the spirit descend like a dove and we see the God, the Father declare to Jesus who he is. This is my son on whom I'm well pleased. Well here, we're going to see the same thing happen, except the tearing takes place in the temple, and the one who recognizes Jesus to who he is, is going to speak more about what has fully occurred, to kind of close out that theme. And, uh, and, uh, one of you guys want to talk about that, the next scene, uh, with who, Uh, who spoke that hang on,

Lance: 48:59

there was another part of that previous and I'm kind of going backwards on this, but I wasn't allowed to talk there for a minute. So,

Adam: 49:09

uh,

Lance: 49:12

I don't know. This is totally just a very quick, one of the things I found that was very interesting was, uh, at the time there was a group of ladies and they called them the, uh, daughters of Jerusalem. And they were the ones that would go and, uh, help out the condemned and bring, mix the myrrh and the wine and help, uh, you know, them with some of the pain and stuff. So I don't know. I found that kind of interesting. Yeah. I didn't go much more. I want to dig more into that. It just. Kind of stuck out to me. Yeah, because women play a really important role. Women do play a very important

Alison: 49:45

role. We'll see that in a minute, but first, I'm going to say a point and answer. Well, even the fact that

Lance: 49:50

they, uh, that they were called the women of Jerusalem, or the daughters of Jerusalem. The daughters of Jerusalem, yeah. It reminded me of, you know, there's the Daughters of the American Revolution and the Daughters of the Alamo. I mean, so we had the Daughters of Jerusalem.

Adam: 50:05

I have the Daughters of Adam, they, they, they caused me, uh, you know, constant pain and misery. Okay, I'm

Alison: 50:12

ending this conversation off right now. We're, we're going back to the Centurion and then we're going to esteem the women in this, uh, passage. The women are great. We know that. Yes. They definitely deserve. Um, but actually we're going to keep the focus on Jesus and um, the thing is that, um, you're right. So, okay, so now the veil has been torn into, which as you were talking, I hadn't thought about this before, but you guys are so good about bringing out themes, this inside outside theme and all these different things. And, you know, you had mentioned that Jesus's clothes weren't torn. Um, but now, um, in, in those clothing again and again, it's meant to cover our shame, right? In scripture. Um, clothing is meant to cover our shame, but all of a sudden now we see Jesus tearing a cloth. Um, we don't have to experience shame in the presence of God anymore. So I don't know if that theory is over, if I qualify there for that, but. I think so. And then right after, right after the veil is torn, um, a centurion makes the same pronouncement that Jesus, that God made about Jesus in the opening verses of Mark at his baptism when he says, this is my son, whom I love. And so the centurion is watching Jesus. And upon his death, he makes the very first proclamation of anyone in the Book of Mark that Jesus is divine. He says, this is God's son. Yep. And we see, um, several times we see Jesus call himself the Messiah. Other people like Peter realizes Jesus is the Christ. And perhaps. Perhaps they had assigned some divinity in their mind to him, but that title alone in Jewish times, being the Messiah, being the Christ, it wasn't necessarily a God term. Like they thought of it as a political savior, keep in mind. So they didn't naturally assign a Messiah as being a deity. So this is the first time in Mark's gospel that a human being is going to assign deity to Christ. And it is a Roman centurion, which continues that irony, right?

Adam: 52:08

Yeah, it's not a

Alison: 52:09

Jew. It's a Gentile. No, it's, it's not a Jew. And so, and the Roman soldier, the centurion, he would have been there in charge of four other soldiers who would have been guarding the cross. Um, and his role would have been to pronounce Jesus dead and to preside over the crucifixion. But, um. And for Romans, they would never have called someone else a son of God because in Rome that term was reserved as a title for Caesar, the ultimate ruler. And so the fact that the centurion, um, acknowledged that Jesus was the son of God was a big deal for a Roman to say that, to assign that title to anyone other than Caesar.

Adam: 52:52

So, uh, do you want to just sum up kind of the end here and we can close, we can close it

Alison: 52:58

out? Absolutely. Absolutely. So when, um. So, I'm so glad you assigned that job to me, because I want to just point out that there were, there were some women, um, who were around, um, when Jesus was taken off the

Adam: 53:12

cross. They have a very strange name though. I,

Alison: 53:15

I know. It's Mary

Adam: 53:16

Magdalene. They share very strange names. And, and

Lance: 53:20

Mary, Mary, that's where we're going to start calling Allison.

Adam: 53:24

Can we, can we, can we give that out? I mean, is that, is that, is that general knowledge that we're allowed to talk about? That my name

Alison: 53:30

is Mary Allison. Oh, yeah.

Adam: 53:31

The listeners

Lance: 53:32

might not know that. Yeah. Yeah. And how did you get that name?

Alison: 53:36

It's, it's in my family tradition that the firstborn would be named Mary in my family. Yeah, the

Lance: 53:42

firstborn period, like a man is going to be Mary.

Alison: 53:45

You are inches away from getting

Adam: 53:47

kicked off our podcast right now. This is getting good. So how does that make you feel, Allison?

Alison: 53:52

No, that is not what we're talking about. Um, what I can tell you though is that when Jesus was, when Jesus gave up, and the scripture says that he gave up his spirit. Um, and so he literally pronounced, we know from John, that it is finished, and he died. And a lot of times when, uh, people would have been crucified on the cross, they would have spent a long time unconscious before they actually, Um, died. And that didn't happen to Jesus because he gave up his spirit on our behalf and he died. And then Joseph of Arimathea, he, um, asked for Jesus's body and a lot of times the Romans would leave bodies, um, on the cross to, um, continue, like, even after they died, they would get savaged by animals and birds and things. It was just a continued example of public humiliation, a warning, um, to other people not to, you know, commit the crime that the person who had been crucified committed or whatever. But Joseph of Arimathea asked. for Jesus's body. And he does that right after the centurion goes into Pilate and tells Pilate that Jesus is officially dead, which would have been one of his roles as the ruling centurion over the crucifixion. And you know, I kind of wonder, and the scripture doesn't tell us, but when I get to heaven, I think that I'm going to ask the centurion, because I think that he made a profession of faith in my mind. I'm in that moment. I'm going to say, what did you tell pilot when you went in? Did you tell him that was the son of God? Because remember pilot was already a little uncomfortable with the crucifixion. He was already thinking that, um, you know, maybe this, there was something more to Jesus. And so I'm really curious about the conversation that went on between pilot and the centurion there when Jesus. And when he went to pronounce Jesus dead to Pilate, and then Joseph asks for his body and Pilate gives it to him and, um, Then two women, it says, the chapter ends with two women were watching where Jesus was laid. And the reason that's really important is because, Those women are serving as eyewitnesses to the fact that Jesus was dead. Um, and, and I love that it was women, if, if this would have been a fictional story that men would have been writing at the time, they would not have chosen women as the eyewitnesses because women weren't recognized as credible eyewitnesses at the time, their testimony for years after even. Wasn't received as credible testimony, um, just because they would have been women, but it's a true story.

Lance: 56:13

Well, so much of the story, uh, in throughout the whole book, probably throughout the, all the gospels, but just this one chapter in particular, there are so many aspects that you wouldn't have included. If you were writing it yourself, I mean, uh, go back the chapter before when Peter denied Jesus, well, we believe that Peter was the mate, the largest contributor to the gospel of Mark. And I mean, again, if you were the major contributor, you would have written yourself more as the hero and not, you know, as someone that denied him three times, uh, into Alison's point, you wouldn't have put the women in there at the time. But, you know, all of these, there's several others, but all of these points lead us to believe that, you know, that's why this is true. I mean, you wouldn't have, uh, again, we wouldn't have written it this way.

Adam: 57:09

Yeah, it definitely lends creed to the historicity of, of like Jesus himself. The fact that, you know, Joseph of Arimathea, this, uh, council of. He's part of the Sanhedrin. Ultimately, he, he, he's given to be part of the ones who ultimately would, uh, you know, condemn Jesus to death also happens to be the one who's going to give this noble, uh, burial to this man now as well, which does not work in, in favor of this narrative either, you know, at the end of the day. Which

Lance: 57:36

also, by the way, was prophesied as well. Yeah. Yeah. That he would be buried along with the rich. I mean, so again, another, uh, you know, nod to the Old Testament, but you know, another part of that about Joseph going forth and asking for the body that puts a target on him now. I mean, before, I mean, he wouldn't just. a noble, he was part of the Sanhedrin. I mean, part of the 71 elite. And now, I mean, don't you know, every time that, uh, you know, he goes to a meeting as he walks in, there are guys that look at him and they're like whispering, you know, so.

Adam: 58:13

I, I, I made this connection a long time ago when we were talking at, I don't even remember which series we were in, but I, I actually think that, uh, of course, in God's sovereign will, uh, that Joseph of Arimathea is actually another nod to Joseph and, uh, who was left, uh, forgotten and entombed in Egypt as well. Um, I feel like, I, I, I can't, that's all opinion, but I just, to me, I'm like, I look at this and I'm like, oh, I just can't help but see that this is Joseph. You know, of Arimathea, he's, he's representing as like, kind of like that nod to, um, uh, a different man who was left entombed in Egypt. And now here's, here he is burying, you know, the son of man, you know, Jesus himself.