Dr. Greg Church, PhD in Near Eastern Studies | Consultant at The Clearing

In this episode, we discuss how Greg leveraged the skills he gained during his PhD in Near Eastern Studies and his ministerial background to enter the consulting sector, the role of mentorship and networking in his exploration of different career paths, and his take on the people-centered approach to public sector consulting in his current work at The Clearing.   

Hosted by Lois Dankwa

To connect with Greg and to learn more about his story, visit his page on the PHutures #100AlumniVoices Project website.

Transcript

Lois Dankwa

 Hi I'm cohost Lois Dankwa, and this is the #100 Alumni Voices Podcast, stories that Inspire, where we explore the personal and professional journeys of a Diverse group of 100 Doctoral Alumni from Johns Hopkins University. Today we're joined by Greg Church PhD in Near Eastern Studies and Current Consultant at the Clearing. Hi Greg.

Greg Church

 Hey Lois!

Lois Dankwa

How are you today?

Greg Church

I'm doing pretty well.

Lois Dankwa

Great. Well, I'm excited to have you join us today. And I want to start by kind of hearing about your graduate work at Hopkins and what made you even pursue a PhD in Near Eastern Studies.

Greg Church

Sure. Yeah, so my background in near Eastern studies is something that I was passionate about from a pretty young age. I developed an early history and ancient History and languages, just I was just really fascinated by all these different cultures and books that were really old. So, for example, when I was 14 years old, I started teaching myself ancient Greek, just because I had found a book in the local library. 

Lois Dankwa

Wow!

Greg Church

I just started digging into these things, and grew more and more interested specifically in the ancient Near East, because it's such a formative time of course, for what Western civilization, obviously there are very important texts that emerged from it so there, there's all this influence on the modern world that emerges from that time period. But it's also, people have a certain fascination with the ancient Middle East. It's kind, of this mysterious and fascinating and fantastical time period as well, and so it was fun to learn more about it and just dig into the actual history, and learn those languages, and get to know that place in that time in a very concrete way.

Lois Dankwa

Yeah, that's exciting. It's you know. It's funny. I never when I was younger, I didn't view myself as someone that was into history, which is an interesting thing to think back on knowing that everything is based in history. And I wouldn't say that the same thing about myself now, but it's for someone that, like you, who was always interested in history more broadly, and then more narrowly, it's I can tell how excited you got about it. And it makes me curious then, kind of when you were, studying your PhD, and when you were thinking about kind of directions, you wanted to go next, how that excitement really guided your thoughts, while you were working on your PhD. But then, also, when you were thinking about what you wanted to do next.

Greg Church

Yeah, I think there are a couple of aspects of my own professional enthusiasm. One which we've already touched on is my so you might call it the subject matter enthusiasm, right. I just think the ancient Near East is just absolutely fascinating, and important, and influential. But I, also throughout my own personal life and career, have really developed a joy in helping and serving other people. And that that may seem super generic, but for me that has manifested in a number of different capacities. Of course, as a teacher. I love being in the classroom and helping students wrestle with difficult topics, and come to learn new things, like that that's just a real joy to me, but also professionally, in other areas. So, I have a background, not just in Academia, but have worked in ministerial Settings as well. As you can imagine, with a near Eastern studies Degree part of my focus was in work in the Hebrew Bible, talking about influence from the ancient past that still carries over to Influence modern Day Societies and People's Views of the World. So that work and Ministerial settings was another opportunity to be helping the local community serving people and was really another opportunity that I very much enjoyed to take some of the things I was learning, some of that serious rigorous academic work, but use it in a way that was making a meaningful impact in people's lives

Lois Dankwa

Yeah, that's a, good point, that the point about impact is always something that I think, especially as people continue to Dive into academic interests the question of how am, I going to make an impact can often be one that we think about. And I'm glad that you mentioned for you it was you really wanted to help people, and I understand that doing Kind of Health Services Research and work in that area.

Greg Church

Oh, yeah.

Lois Dankwa

It just it draws from some natural desire to help people and I'm curious then when you, so you did ministerial work. But then I guess, did that is that work that you continued right after your PhD and kind of how did the things that you learned or any of the skills that you learned during your doctoral work inform how you even picked your next role?

Greg Church

Yeah, so as I was looking at the end of my PhD program, I was wrapping up my dissertation. I knew that I was gonna be done about a year in advance. I was started really seriously, thinking about what's next for me and due to a number of sort of Life Changes I realized I was gonna be geographically living in Maryland. So, there was just not an opportunity for me to move out of the Greater Baltimore Area and as you could imagine in the Academic world, that that's kind of a kind of kills your Prospects from the start. So, I was like okay, I need to do some creative thinking, but let me just say that that geographical constraint was not the only reason I started looking outside of Academia. I loved my Hopkins faculty, really had a wonderful relationship with my advisor. He was just a fantastic support and help and you know I have only praise for him, but I did you know look at the Academic world and see there's a lot of real struggles, a lot of real challenges in that that work, and as I mentioned before I my Passion in the Academic sphere is really for teaching, and when you look at most or at least many university positions, so much of the Emphasis is on Research, publication writing, and you know, to put it in a really, sort of oversimplified manner I didn't want to end up sort of locked in my Office with a bunch of books. My desire for my career was related to make that meaningful impact in the lives of others, and that that can be challenging to do within an academic space. So, I did start looking outside the world of Academia and that's what led me to a lot of exploring, eventually Landing and in the Consulting Space.

Lois Dankwa

Right. And it gives you an opportunity to be able to just to talk to people. And you're not like you said in your office with a lot of books.

Greg Church

Don't get me wrong. I enjoy those days with books, right and all of that. But, day after day after day of that, while that is so inspiring for some people, I realized that I was different from some colleagues.

Lois Dankwa

Yeah

Greg Church

Who would you know, would love that life. For me, and it's like I really want to be interacting with other people and finding ways to help the people around me and that's really what interested me in consulting. I realized it was a fast-paced, active work environment where you could make a meaningful impact for people, help the community, especially in or at least in my opinion, especially in public sector consulting which I really started to hone in on and seek out because I felt that that was a way to really meet and serve the public good. And so, I started looking more and more in those spaces where I could use my own academic skills. Obviously, I'm not translating, cuneiform texts for my employer. But I am doing a lot of speaking, writing, engaging with different groups. I've realized that a lot of the skills that I gained as a PhD have been really useful where I'm at, and so it's been, I would say a pretty smooth transition out of Academia and into the Consulting Space, because of the skills that I brought or gained from Johns Hopkins in my time there.

Lois Dankwa

Oh, that's great it's and it's great to hear how you were able to apply some of the skills that you learned during your time as a doctoral student and candidate. I think that you brought up a good point that for you, you were really invested in the teaching part, but then there's so much attached to research, too, which is also important. But we all have our own and kind, of different interests.

Greg Church

Yeah, exactly exactly.

Lois Dankwa

You know and it makes me, it makes me curious, then kind of more I'm interested in what you do now. So, you apply some of your skills. But what does it mean to be a consultant at The Clearing?

Greg Church

Yeah, and I can speak to what it means to be a consultant at the clearing. I can't speak so well to what it means to be a consultant elsewhere. I mean, I've learned through informational interviews and all sorts of other things talking to colleagues and others about other firms, but The Clearing is the only place where I have worked in consulting. So, what it looks like at the Clearing is quite frankly, every day is different. You're always up to something different. And at least for me, I've been on a variety of different projects in the course of at this point, we're about a year and a half in, and I'd say I've probably worked for a dozen maybe 15 different Federal clients and have really Enjoyed the Opportunity to get, to know these different clients, different federal agencies, all these, different spaces. I feel like I've learned a lot about parts of the government, parts of the DC life that I just didn't know anything about. And of course so what I do there, our company, the Clearing really they emphasize and focus on the fact that the Clearing focuses on people in the Government, and doesn't approach Organizations and agencies just as institutions with budgets, and strategic Plans, but recognizes that there is a personal component to everything, and if you can't engage with, communicate to, and build a strategy that accounts for the people who are in your agency, change initiatives and the solutions you come up with to challenging problems are likely to fail and so we really try to emphasize the personal. And to me, that was really exciting. When I got to know the Clearing—I had a funny way of getting connected to the Clearing. So I was as I've mentioned already, I was working with Hopkins alum, actually his name was Doug, and he was helping me with networking and career planning and just a wonderful partner and Mentor and as we were talking about consulting he said hey, I'm looking at my LinkedIn and I have this contact named John Miller. I don't know him, but he's connected to me. Let me reach out to him and see if he'd be willing to talk to you. And as it turns out, John Miller, is one of the founders of the Clearing. And he was willing to speak with me, which made an impression on me. I wouldn't have expected the founder of a company to take half an hour to talk to me, but he did, and what he drove home in that conversation was like our company is focused on meeting people where they're at, and caring for and emphasizing the personal, you know, in all these agency transformations and change initiatives, and that's been, something that really resonated with me, because as you could imagine, consulting could become all about money, progress, change whatever maybe a leader wants without accounting for what really matters to the workforce, the people who are on the ground in an agency or an organization, and so I have especially enjoyed the opportunity to interact a lot with the workforce, and various Federal agencies to hear their Experiences, their Joys and their Struggles in the Work that they do.

Lois Dankwa

That's great. A lot of the things that you said, stuck out, and kind of resonate with me a lot of different ways, so one of them being really the importance of kind of your Network and the community that you have and how people are speaking into how you do things. 

Greg Church

Yeah, exactly

Lois Dankwa

What it was just an Alumni friend who was able to connect you to the job that you have now basically, but then, also, it was really cool that it's an important reminder that regardless of what level someone is at in kind of a company or organization, that doesn't mean that they won't give you 30 minutes, and they really opened your mind, I think, in a powerful way, and it makes me curious about kind of other moments for you, where you had someone, that you knew personally, or professionally or that served as a mentor that really was instrumental in how you thought about how you could exist professionally and the things that you could do with your skills, and with your education.

Greg Church

Yeah, I would go back well, aside from the PHutures office. And I'm just deeply grateful to everything that PHutures—all the work and products and sessions that they held—it made it a big impact for me. So, here's a plug in your favor, because it was really helpful to me, made a big impact and made a difference for me. But yes, the man I mentioned, Doug. He was a really big mentor for me, who helped me from the nuts and bolts of looking over documents, you know let's check out your resume, let's look over an application letter, to just encouraging me in terms of, I hate to use the word strategy, but I guess it is a strategy in terms of networking and reaching out to people through tools, like LinkedIn, etc. And also, to just brainstorming to make those connections, right. You walk out of a PhD program in Near Eastern studies and you know, if I look around on job boards, I'm not gonna find anyone looking for someone who's an expert in ancient Hebrew. It's just not out there, but right but there are skills, that I bring that other PhDs bring that people are seeking, and to be able to identify those transferable skills and define them in a really clear way was very helpful.

Lois Dankwa

Yeah

Greg Church

And I also think to be able to take those skills and the experience and past that I have and for other PhDs that they have and to be able to leverage it as an asset, and not as a liability was really important. You know I, you can imagine that I was intimidated coming out of Hopkins with a PhD in Ancient Middle Eastern history. It was like who cares about that? And add on top of it experience working as a minister at a local church, like boy, the deck is stacked against me was sort of how I felt, right. This background doesn't seem to be something that would appeal to anybody. But working with Doug, he really helped me think through, well, what are the passions that I bring to my work that would be critical, beneficial to the employers that I wanna work for, and what are the skills that I learned and picked up in those environments that could be really helpful in the you know future places that I might work, and that was just such a helpful re-framing exercise. You know, I started to see like okay, I'm good at research. I'm good at critical thinking, good at data analysis from the PhD side. From that for me Ministerial background, right, I'm good at dealing with people problems and just Solving Conflicts and Handling Challenging Social situations, good at public speaking, good at you know other things like that, and I realized you know, there's a lot that these unusual or maybe just unconventional background features of life brought to the marketplace.

Lois Dankwa

Yeah, it's about really thinking about how to market yourself. And recognizing even if on the job description it doesn't spell out exactly, we're looking for Greg Church, PhD in near Eastern studies, connecting the dots for how it is actually saying that even if it's indirectly.

Greg Church

Yeah, exactly exactly.

Lois Dankwa 

So, I'm, I'm curious then for the job that you're doing now, it sounds like you did do a good job of kind, of leveraging your skills, and identifying how the role was looking for you. But, what surprises you about what you're doing and kind of what are your favorite parts of it?

Greg Church

Yeah, that's a that's a good question. And in terms of the Surprises, I'll emphasize maybe some good and some bad. On the negative side, I would say as a PhD working in Consulting, we are used to at Hopkins you know rigorous Research and Vetting, and thinking through everything, and that's not what you're gonna find in the Consulting world. And I think that was initially a little bit of a shock is like wow! You know their research here is not like as thorough right. Most things are not that thorough as what I'm used to. I was coming out of writing a dissertation, and it's like, yeah, people don't have 3 years to sit around and write a book about everything. Sometimes the you know, in the government space right, congress says  this needs to happen within the next 9 months. And well, it's gotta happen. We don't have time to write the book about it. So that was a surprise you know, an immediate jolt to my system, but it was like, okay, I can live with that. I get it with sometimes we have to move more quickly than a PhD might want to. But on the positive side in terms of surprises or Favorite Parts of the Work. There are a lot of different aspects that I've enjoyed, everything from just the fast Pace of the Work, while that can get tiring, sometimes I think we as PhDs, especially coming out of Hopkins. Right? Where're used to working a lot. And sometimes it can be a lot. But there's always new things, always something different from week to week, month to month, new projects, new goals, new whatever it is that we're doing that was a huge change right from writing a Dissertation where I had one Project for several years on end. So, to be experiencing that kind of fast-paced environment has been enjoyable. And I'd say, the other thing that it's not surprising, but a favorite part of mine in the work is really my colleagues. I loved my Hopkins Colleagues, and really enjoyed the Department in near Eastern studies, thought they were great people, but the Reality of being a PhD student, especially in the Humanities—this may not be so true in the sciences and some other Fields—but it's pretty isolating work in the humanities, right. Most of our thought partners and resources are books, and in ancient history there are books written by dead people, so you can't chat with them.

Lois Dankwa 

Right.

Greg Church

So, it's a lot of independent work which I'm used to and fine with, but I've really enjoyed the collegial partnerships at the Clearing, that I have you know for every project there's a Team and many of those teams that they've just become real partners, in the world, people that I've enjoyed even working remotely, right.  We build these relationships get to know one another and that's just been a vibrant part of the work, and important to me.

Lois Dankwa 

That's really, that's really encouraging to hear, because I can imagine that for people, and doctoral students, and candidates, thinking about graduation, academia and kind of the research world and the way relationships exist in that space can feel very familiar. If for your doctoral studies, you were doing the same thing, and it's nice to hear that they're still open and available places, where you're still able to really form that type of community where you Feel Comfortable to learn and grow and engage so that's I love to hear that.

Greg Church

Yeah, and that that to me has been super enjoyable. I'd add also that I've enjoyed some of the relationships with clients as well, right. You know my colleagues at the clearing have been wonderful partners, and it's been fun to get to know some of these Agency partners in the Government and just to see them Wrestle with problems and to Work with them to find solutions to whatever the knotty issues, they're facing are and to unravel those knots together to untie those problems, and see them come to enjoy Success and growth, and that that's just been a lot of fun for me, too.

Lois Dankwa 

Hmm, that's great. So, I have 2 more questions for you. And the first is about advice. So I am curious what advice you would give to someone who might be interested in what you're doing now, also a PhD student who is studying something similar to what you did near Eastern studies, where it may not be as obvious what non-academic role they could fit in or enjoy.

Greg Church

I'll offer 2 pieces of advice. the first one I've alluded to already, but it's definitely lean into the PHutures office. I do think that was a really important launch point for me, just the offerings and seminars and different sessions that were offered there got me thinking about a career and how I could define and build my own Career because I Just didn't know what was out there and so that really helped me to start to, I would say in terms of thinking about a map. I think the PHutures office really helped me to put the boundaries around that Map and see what all the places I could go were and then, after that I began a lot of Informational Interviews and I would Encourage PhDs, just reach out to People on LinkedIn on whatever use your Personal Network, whatever the case may be talk to people. Most people are nice people. And they're happy to give you half an hour or 45 min to chat about what they do, and just making those very low stakes conversations, just to say hey! I'm a PhD who's about to head out of Hopkins and into the marketplace, and for whatever reason you know, I'd like to learn about what you do. That is invaluable. If you can have those conversations lots and lots of people are willing to have them and that for me was instrumental in learning what it was I wanted to do. I talked to people and all kinds of different spaces and different roles, and over the course of a year, was able through those conversations, to really narrow down what it was that I Wanted to Do and without those Conversations, I think I would have been mostly Clueless just kind of Groping in the dark to Figure things out, but in in terms of that map, I think as I got to know people and what they did, I started to get to know the different little locations all those different spots on the map, and to see where is it that I actually want to go, and that was incredibly helpful to me and I would very much encourage others to reach out. Because frankly, you've got nothing to lose. If somebody says no, they said no. That's fine, right. 

Lois Dankwa 

That's a worst-case scenario. They say, no. And I love that you said most people are nice people, and that's an important reminder. When you're like oh, my gosh, should I—this person is gold, should I email them? It's like, yeah, they could be a nice person, and you could learn something.

Greg Church

Yeah, exactly, exactly. I was just overwhelmed with just the kindness of total strangers who were willing to talk, give you a little bit of time and yeah, so it's really helpful, and effective, I think.

Lois Dankwa 

Yeah, I, love that. Well, so I have one more question for you, and I'm curious. What inspires you right now?

Greg Church

In my own career right now I do think the inspiration for me is finding ways to serve my clients effectively, to help them experience and achieve change for themselves but also for their workforces, you know, for these Federal Government agencies to help the workforce to experience a joyful way of working where they're at and then to be able because of that joy, and the work that they do and finding success in their own professional achievements, because of that to then be able to serve whatever it is that agency is doing to serve their customers, us, US citizens and various effective ways, so it's a real joy for me, to see the work that we do making impact for our clients, but also for the broader community, as they are more effective in what they do.

Lois Dankwa 

Right, and it brings it brings us full circle back to that that point of impact, right, the impact that you are looking for it it's good, that it's continuing to inspire you right now.

Greg Church

Yeah, I, I agree.

Lois Dankwa 

Well, thank you, thank you, thank you, Greg for taking time to chat today. It's been so wonderful to learn about your experiences, and really, just your arc as a PhD and a little bit about who you are today and what you're up to.

Greg Church

Thank you, Lois. I appreciate the time.