Dr. Nate Allen, PhD in African Studies | Associate Professor at Africa Center for Strategic Studies

In this episode, we discuss how Nate’s PhD in African Studies elevated his career prospects, his advice for gaining practical work experience and its importance for securing non-academic jobs, and his experience in the government sector working in his current role at the Africa Center for Strategic Studies.

Hosted by Brooklyn Arroyo

To connect with Nate and to learn more about his story, visit his page on the PHutures #100AlumniVoices Project website.

Transcript

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Brooklyn Arroyo

Hello I'm Co-host Brooklyn Arroyo and this is #100 Alumni Voices podcast, stories that inspire, where we explore the personal and professional journeys of a diverse group of 100 doctoral alumni from Johns Hopkins University. Today we're joined by Nate Allen, PhD in African Studies. So, how are you today, Nate?

Nate Allen

Good, really glad to be here.

Brooklyn Arroyo

Thank you, thank you for coming to the PHutures Podcast. We're really excited to have you on here. So, before we jump in, I just would like to know a little bit about your PhD experience, what you did within your graduate work at Hopkins and what that was like for you.

Nate Allen

Sure, so I got my PhD in African Studies as part of the school of Advanced International Studies. So, one of my major three PhD preparations was on African Studies, but I also did a focus on security studies because my dissertation was on civil military relations and transitional politics in Africa. So, I learned a lot about you know, PhD methods, had some opportunities to do field research in Nigeria and Tunisia. It was a really fun time.

Brooklyn Arroyo

Wow, that does sound amazing and being able to do some of that field work especially. So, what brought you into pursuing a PhD in in this subject?

Nate Allen

Yeah, so I decided I wanted to do a PhD actually pretty early on in my post in my post college career. I had the opportunity to do an internship on the International Affairs Committee on the Hill and I kind of considered myself to be a little bit more thoughtful than most policymakers, but maybe a little bit more practical and in wanting to do work that I saw as having concrete impact than a lot of academics and noticed that there were a lot of think tanks around town that had a lot of PhDs in them, places like the World Bank, you know. I thought that might be an interesting direction for my career to go in.

Brooklyn Arroyo

Mm-hmm definitely. So, you knew that you wanted to pursue a PhD relatively early on, and was there anything that specifically drew to African Studies specifically?

Nate Allen

Actually, it it's ironic. So, I applied to SAIS and got accepted into the African Studies PhD program, but did not specifically apply to the African Studies PhD, if I recall. In fact, a lot of my doctoral applications were pretty general and an interesting, interesting story getting to the actual PhD. Even though it was something that I was pretty sure I wanted to do and also frankly I'm pretty content with the career path that I've chosen it, it certainly wasn't easy. I went through two rounds of PhD applications actually. On the first round in 2012 when I applied for both Masters and PhDs of International Relations, I ended up getting my masters at Princeton in part so I could be with my then fiancée and now wife. I had a whole other round of applications when I was at Princeton, and I think I applied to 10 schools and only got into SAIS. Was the very last place I heard back from.

Brooklyn Arroyo

Wow and so within those two rounds, well, did you learn anything about the process that you think that other people ought to know who are perhaps listening and they're also pursuing their PhD now? And it is a growing process.

Nate Allen

So, I don't know if things have changed, but I think that one of my one of my lessons learned especially from the second time around, is that a lot of a lot of research universities just do not—ook down on people who want to do policy-oriented work and research. And I had I was told by a couple of admissions officers at the fact I put on my application that I was potentially interested in not just doing rigorous academic work and being a scholar was not looked kindly upon, because that's not what they saw as the research institution’s central mission, even though I had a bit of a broader vision of what I wanted to do out of the PhD. Maybe that was just the schools I was applying for, but that was certainly, that was certainly a part of my experience. I only kind of really learned it the second time around, I would say, where I kind of had part of my experience actually as a Masters student mainly at Princeton that they didn't really know what to do with Masters students. They had their undergraduates who they had a very kind of teaching focused curriculum for. They had their PhDs who they were doing PhD things and so we sort of fell in the middle and there was not a lot of a lot of ideas. There's a lot of support or interest in master students getting PhD. I think they saw it as kind of a waste of what they hope would be a future sort of see here you know government officials or leader talent, and that's not at all how I saw it, but I think that that's a common perception, especially among top academic and research institutions that if you are doing a PhD, you should only be in it for the pure scholarship purposes, and I don't think that I, I think that actually we would all be better served if all PhD programs had a little bit of a broader perspective on what they could, what, what kind of skills you get out of being a PhD and what kind of career trajectories are possible.

Brooklyn Arroyo

More than just the linear going straight into academia and research, and that sort of thing. So, outside your PhD you know the years following your graduation, what were sort of the first steps into your career?

Nate Allen

After my PhD or before?

Brooklyn Arroyo

After your PhD.

Nate Allen

After my PhD, so this is part of why I had a really good experience, like I knew I was interested in sort of mid to senior level government, think tank, researching jobs and kind of what happened as a result of my PhD, as I got a lot of expertise on African security issues, I was able to write about them. I was able to publish them. I was lucky in that kind of prior to getting the PhD program, I did have some career experience. I'd worked for three years as a research analyst for sort of a research organization called NORC at the University of Chicago. Spent some time in Morocco so you know I was like somebody who was just a little bit above entry level and what having the PhD and the publications really enabled me to do was to kind of make, I think a compelling case to a lot of government and research institutions that I was a I was a I was a good choice. I was an interesting candidate. I noticed certainly that you, you get, I think it's easier to find jobs anyway in your mid-career as you get a little bit more specialized, but I certainly found that when I was applying to kind of the kinds of opportunities, I was interested in, as I was getting the PhD, I got a lot more interest in my applications. I think in part because of having the PhD experience that I that I would have gotten without the PhD experience.

Brooklyn Arroyo

Definitely. So, in the work that you do now what does sort of the day-to-day look like for you?

Nate Allen

So, the kind of two main responsibilities that I have here at the Africa Center are first and foremost we manage kind of week to three-week long seminars for government and security sector officials in Africa. And so, I manage our cybersecurity and peace operations portfolios. So, I spend a fair amount of my time thinking about speakers for those programs, thinking about course content, thinking about programming for those programs. We also do a fair amount of research, so I've had like five or six different publications this year, so I will be doing various kinds of research and we also do, occasionally speaking engagements press that kind of thing.

Brooklyn Arroyo

So, a pretty diverse sort of work environment. Not necessarily a straight forward every day you're doing the same sort of thing.

Nate Allen

Not at all.

Brooklyn Arroyo

And do you think that there was any major surprises to the work that you were doing based off of the things that you were learning in your PhD? Did you have any moments where you felt unprepared in the in the job that you entered now?

Nate Allen

No, I don't think there were any particular moments that I felt unprepared. I think in part because I had previous work experience. I think one piece of advice I would give to people who are potentially interested in exploring a PhD but without going straight into academia would be to get a little bit of work experience on your resume, because again, I think with the PhD you're generally competing for mid-level jobs, and so it's like huge mis-matchif you just go straight to the PhD and have no work experience and start trying to keep those same jobs. It helps to have at least a few years of being able to have done some kind of work, and especially for what I do in international relations. Getting experience, you know, living in countries that I work on studying languages, all that sort of thing prior to the PhD I think was critical.

Brooklyn Arroyo

Definitely. So, within International Studies, just the general idea of International Studies and those pursuing a PhD, what advice do you have for actually entering careers and jobs that give you that work experience or you know that travel experience that cultural experience that you're talking about?

Nate Allen

Yeah, so if you want to work in international relations might it might probably #1 top tip would be to get some experience abroad in the countries or regions you're interested in while you are in college, or immediately afterwards. It you know it helps build out your resume. It helps get you language skills. It helps get you connections in the countries you're interested in. Studying you know if you have the resources and I know not all people do. I know folks who sometimes would just travel to a foreign country, show up and be able to get various kinds of paid contracting opportunities while they were there on the ground to build experience that way. There are also places like the Peace Corps. What I did was when I was in college, I spent six months studying abroad in Mali, West Africa. I spent three months in a in a program on gender, health, and development, and another three months interning for the US Agency for International Development. And I think you know that experience, I think you could draw a pretty much linear line from that experience, and most of the other kinds of opportunities I've had in my career up until this point.

Brooklyn Arroyo

And definitely and they just sound like amazing experiences to have within a lifetime, you know, to have that exposure. Many people don't get to travel the world, really. So, within this work it does sound like you sort of have to widen your world a little bit and within that did you make any significant mentorship or networking opportunities that have really stuck with you over the years that that people have still impacted you?

Nate Allen

Yeah, so I'd kind of highlight a couple of different mentorship experiences. #1, in retrospect, I was really, really lucky and immediately out of college having a couple of really, really good supervisors. First at my the job I worked for three years as a research analyst at a place called NORC at the University of Chicago and then secondly, I had a fellowship at the State Department. And, you know, I, they were both just people who were very interested in what I was doing, but also not kind of super micromanaging. Enabled me to be independent and able to kind of make the kind of contributions that I felt like I could. Like and I think a second concrete piece of advice I'd have to people is that the how happy you are in the job and the people you work with and the people you work for matters much more than the job title. They're the longer I've grown and my gotten in my career the less tolerance I've grown for job situations where either kind of management isn't great or team teams relations aren't great and you know I, I think that's really, really, really important. I think that's something when you're necessarily a young person who is out to make your mark on the world, you're always considering first and foremost and honestly, the farther I get my career, the, the more of a consideration it it's become.

Brooklyn Arroyo

Definitely, and I do think that that's something that people are talking about and considering more, the importance of work environments and whether that you can relates to the work environment or it's going to be a positive thing for you. So, when it goes to making decisions about where you work, what advice would you have for people who are considering having that be a major factor? How do you go about looking into a workplace environment before you go and that sort of thing?

Nate Allen

Sure, I mean you could—also, you could always read what you see online or you know, sometimes there's stuff like Glassdoor and things available about an organization. And I think this can be one of the really huge challenges I remember from just starting out my careers. You're so unspecialized that it's hard to kind of forge even begin to forge connections into the organizations you're interested in working with. But if you could, I would kind of strongly try to encourage you if you can both, and try to especially at the point of being offered a job, to see if you can talk to people who are at the organization or who have just left the organization so they can give you a little bit of a sense of sort of what some of the workplace politics are like. You can also get a lot of interesting information out of interviews. You know, one thing I think I only learned a little bit later in my career is that it's not just that you're being interviewed for a job, you're interviewing your perspective employer, and usually if there are morale issues, policy issues, management issues, often they're not always those kinds of issues become pretty apparent in the interview. I can certainly say that's been my experience where if you're able to read the room correctly you could have a pretty good sense of what an organization's issues are and whether you're an appropriate fit for the position. And even if you get out for the job, you know, it might be scary, but honestly, I think working in a really, really bad situation depending where you're at can be can be sometimes worse than being unemployed.

Brooklyn Arroyo

That's a really good point though, to mention that you're not just the one being interviewed, you're also looking to see if it's a good fit for you, you know. It's a give and take sort of situation. So, career wise, what do you envision the next phase being for you if you've thought about that?

Nate Allen

Sure, I mean honestly, I'm very happy where I am right now. I kind of have forged a career, both at the kind of the Nexus of Think tanks and government and academia actually too and you know I see myself more or less staying on the on the path I'm at for a while. I think we're doing a lot of interesting work at the Africa Center. One kind of pretty unexpected career direction for me that has actually been, I think, interesting and fruitful is that I got my PhD in Civil military relations in Africa. But when I got to the Africa Center, which is my current organization, I was asked to start a program on cyber issues, threats and challenges, so I've kind of helped since 2019 when I started, start that program and it's been interesting to see it grow and begin to gain traction and you know, talk about all the talk about a lot of Africa strategic threats from things like critical infrastructure, sabotage, disinformation, drones and things like that with colleagues all over Africa, you know, Ghana, Nigeria, the African Union, places like that. It's been a really, really intense. Saying right, that'll be one other advice I would have would be you know your careers, they’re sometimes going to take slight left or right turns and it's it can be it can you can you can roll with it and make good opportunities out of them.

Brooklyn Arroyo

Definitely definitely. So you briefly mentioned having both experience in in your relatively in industry now, but also having experience with the academia side of work. What would your thoughts be on the difference between academia, post PhD and working industry Post PhD?

Nate Allen

Not sure I can talk too much about the private sector. I can talk more about like the differences between academia and government. I think that they're somewhat different. You know if you want to work in academia, generally speaking, you have to invest a lot of time in original research and publications, and depending on exactly where you want to go in teaching. You know if you want to work in government, I think it's more important to have some of the more practical management-oriented skills, country experience, those, those kinds of things. In both settings, and this is why I think to some degree being an academic really helped me, and being able to write well is really matters a lot, it's a really, really crucial skill. So that was part of how I think I was able to do pretty well kind of getting the kinds of opportunities I was interested in after my PhD was that I had a couple of academic publications, a couple of more policy-oriented applications, and you know that were those were I think, interesting to both audiences.

Brooklyn Arroyo

Definitely. So, within your work now or just your overall work experiences you've had, have there been any necessarily like favorite parts that you've had, or parts that you continue to dive deeper into?

Nate Allen

Favorite parts that I've had, I you know, I think I've had a couple of career, I've had a couple of career highlights I would guess for better lack of I mean so when I was immediately after my PhD, I had the opportunity to serve as a policy advisor on the task force on extremism and fragile states, which was at the US Institute of Peace and some of the work that we did helped indirectly or directly lead to the passage of the Global Fragility Act. So that was really cool. To be a fly on the wall as a lot of extremely senior policy people kind of talked about things like violent extremism and fragile states. And that whole process see that whole process sort of culminate in the passage of a major piece of legislation. I would say that was that was a big that was that was a big, you know, uh, you've had some impact in your career kind of kind of moments, and I also say earlier even early on in my career that I had, I had you know, this is not I think this is actually not a not a pretty normal Hill intern experience but it but it happens. There was like the thing I've worked on the hill that ended up getting passed as part of a house bill. I think so that was also kind of kind of cool. And I think that's also been particularly unique and rewarding. About kind of this job in particular is where previous jobs I've had have been US focused we’re much more focused on trying to have, you know, impact in in Africa and making, rather than saying the US to do XYZ, we're actually saying look here are some good practices both from within Africa itself and here's some African colleagues we know to talk about them, as well as from abroad. And you know, to see you know people who are very senior government and policy officials kind of either react to your work, react to a suggestion, build relationships with them, it's really, really interesting, like we, for example, we just we're my organization, I don't claim to have a big part in this, but we organized a round table for African, you know investors and defense ministers on the side of the recent Africa leaders Summit and that they had the secretary of the Army spoke at that the commander of US Africa command spoke of that. So that was kind of also really cool just to participate in that and you know you know be part of that that process.

Brooklyn Arroyo

Definitely. These big moments are pivotal to maintaining a well-rounded career, I think. So, our last question today is something that we're asking all of our interviewees, and I think that it you've touched on it briefly, but really, we want to know what inspires you right now?

Nate Allen

So, you probably heard this before, but I think one of the things that inspires me right now is honestly, I think the energy and interest in standing up for justice and equality I see a lot from a lot of younger people these days. You know, as an older millennial I kind of remember a time when the general trajectory of the world kind of seemed to be going very, very well and you know sort of thought of one of the things I was going to do with my life would be to hopefully try to kind of keep things from keep things going well in various ways, you know, and I thought a lot of the biggest problems we would face, for example, as a country would be abroad, which is part of why I got international interested in international relations. I think to some extent that's still largely the case, but I never would have foreseen the degree of kind of internal instability that we've had here in the United States, and had I had I known that was coming, I might have, you know, thought a little bit more about working on social and social justice issues at home and you know I see kind of a renewed commitment, I think to those kinds of issues coming out of from a lot of young people that I think hopefully will lead to very good outcomes over the long term for this country and the world.

Brooklyn Arroyo

Definitely. I agree that it's also inspiring to me, but thank you so much for all you've shared today. I think that you've given such great advice on all sorts of things about your career and really brought a lot of insight into that.

Nate Allen

Sure, thanks, thanks for the opportunity, I really appreciate it. Hope that you find it useful.