Dr. anushka aqil, PhD in Health Behavior & Society | Health Communications Specialist at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC)

In this episode, we discuss what led anushka to pursue her PhD in Health Behavior & Society, her take on the ambivalent nature of a PhD and the ways it can act as a source of power, and the ways her identities as a South Asian immigrant and member of the LGBTQ+ community impacted her academic and professional experiences. 

Hosted by Brooklyn Arroyo

To connect with anushka and to learn more about her story, visit her page on the PHutures #100AlumniVoices Project website.

Transcript

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Brooklyn Arroyo

Hello I am Co-host, Brooklyn Arroyo and this is the #100 Alumni Voices podcast, stories that inspire, where we explore the personal and professional journeys of a diverse group of 100 doctoral alumni from John Hopkins University. Today we're joined by Anushka Aqil, PhD in health behavior and society. How are you Anushka?

Anushka Aqil

I'm doing well. How are you?

Brooklyn Arroyo

I'm also doing well. I'm ready to go back to my term of school and a week out and ready for spring semester. So, let's just jump right in, and I'd love to hear about why you pursued your PhD in health, behavior, and society.

Anushka Aqil

That's a great question. I so I think a lot of this goes back into why I pursued a PhD in general. I got into public health largely because, you know, as a as a Pakistani immigrant, I think the expectation was to become a medical doctor. I was not fulfilling that ambition and, you know, I knew of public health. It's kind of in the family and I had to pursue that. So, I and the long-winded story does get to a point, but I pursued public health because it felt like it was going to go somewhere. And I knew eventually I had to be a doctor to make my parents happy. And so, I did my masters and I started working actually, and I really enjoyed the work that I was doing and I thought that I didn't need to pursue a doctorate degree. I was a program coordinator for a research study, and in that position, one of the PIs—it was a multi-site study—and one of the PIs said as I was offering some feedback was that you know your opinions are very useful Anushka, but you don't have a doctorate degree to be at a decision level making point, and that moment I felt like wow, I might I need that PhD to be at the table so that my voice can be taken more seriously. It was both disappointing, but also kind of the catalyst needed to move forward and propel me to go ahead and pursue a PhD. I focused on social sciences because I've always I've always been interested in social determinants of health and systemic issues around depression and how that kind of influences the ways in which we exist and how it influences our health behaviors. So, I looked at various different programs across the country and Hopkins was one of them where they were looking at some of the topics that I was interested in. So HBS was a department where I was interested. It had a couple of people working on topics I was interested in and that's how I landed here. Or there. Not that I'm here anymore.

Brooklyn Arroyo

OK, so I think that it's really interesting how you brought up the experience with being told that you wouldn't necessarily have an effective or a seat in general at the table without your PhD. So, I'd love to talk more about how you felt within that and whether you had a moment where you wanted to combat that almost, or did you just automatically say, OK, well, I guess I need to get my PhD?

Anushka Aqil

So, here's the context I think is important. I was working with trans and non-binary on a research project that focused on trans and non-binary health over a lifespan and when we work with well, I mean not that not all public health work tends to be with marginalized communities, but these were communities that, the queer and trans communities that I'm a part of, and they were, you know, my friends who, coming in and doing a lot of the research and so my instinct to be combative was tempered very quickly with I know I didn't have power because it was, you know, choose your battle. So, I felt in that moment when I was told that, it was kind of like a slap to the face and like, huh? Like I was just reminded that ohh I have no power, but I can still make other demands, you know? Like we need a different type of security. We need to have different protocols. Change around survey questions or our qualitative data collection questions, those kinds of methodological concerns I did not have power to influence or change. And so, I think it was both. I think I was just—I was—it was a combination of just being extremely humiliated and also recognizing that, I mean, I don't know if I can say this, but I had a fully few moments right like I was like great. I am so embarrassed. But let me show you. And I don't think ultimately that I ended up showing this person anything. This person probably does not even remember me in any way shape or form, but I think it just made it very clear that all the barriers that are in front of the people who should be doing the research on their own communities and you know, I'm already so privileged and it's just, I think that was probably, if anything, the start to the end of my relationship with doing research and showed me very—led me to a path of realizing I am no longer interested in research as much because there's just this, there's an ivory tower that I did not appreciate, and I think it just people claim that they were trying to help other people, but in reality they were just pushing their own agendas and making themselves look good without actually listening to the people who are doing the work and the people who are being affected by the work. So, it was it was again very disappointing, very sad. But yeah, I didn't—I don't recall being angry. I just recall being sad and disappointed. And just like having that the response to I need to get out of here and I will show you.

Brooklyn Arroyo

I think that a lot of things that come up in other podcasts or across this series is the idea of mentorship and a thing that I think that you've experienced, that I truly relate to on a personal level is the idea of almost anti-mentorship by somebody who almost as though to bring you down to your level, quote UN quote to make you feel less than to and like you said, they oftentimes don't even remember really who you are. And yet those are the people that can really ignite a fire within us and propel us to become even better. So, I think a beautiful experience in itself, but it it's always rough and I do I do relate to what you're talking about. So, I think that I to skip ahead for just a moment, I'd like to ask; do you feel that post PhD within the work you saw a positive impact in sort of like what this person was saying was going to happen? Do you feel that you had that seat at that table or you were beginning to get your foot in the door more?

Anushka Aqil

Oh, having a PhD absolutely changed, right, how I'm perceived, how I'm acknowledged. So, one of the things I think so now I have a different job now and many people don't know that I have a PhD and it's not something that I go around screaming. Oh, I have a PhD right. It's not necessary. And a couple of people actually commented because they noted it on my e-mail signature at work that, oh, I didn't realize that you have a PhD. You don't come across as someone who has a PhD. And I asked them, I was like, what is someone who comes across with a PhD, right? And they're like, pretentious. Like, oh, OK, well, that's, I hope I'm not that, right. But I notice, I mean, one of the reasons that I was, I think the PhD has afforded me a lot of opportunities in that I think I know my subject matter a lot more. I think that when I tell people, you know, I got my degree at the institution, you know, at Hopkins, people have a certain level of respect. So, I definitely acknowledge the power that comes from having a PhD, and I do think for people who are interested in getting the power of those 3 letters behind their name should absolutely pursue it. The experience of a PhD is a whole different topic I can talk about and you know I, with a lot of my students and a lot of my colleagues who are interested in or pursuing a PhD, there’s many conversations we have. I don't think a PhD is for everyone, but I do think it can be a very useful degree. That being said, I think I also believe that education is not just something that you get in an institution. It is an everyday experience that you get at your work, through your colleagues, through your peers, your family, your friends, etc., right. Having the PhD is just—a lot of it has to do with privilege, circumstance, finances, access and it's an amalgamation—I hope that's the right word—of resources that you may have access to that allows you to get this degree. So, I had all those things. It worked really well for me at the end of the day. I needed it to move forward in the ways that I do and also to achieve a financial status that I want to achieve that I would not have if I didn't have the PhD. So, I pursued a PhD for a lot of reasons. Yes, I was, you know, kind of like that, that had that catalyst moment, but also ultimately, I knew that I wanted to achieve a certain level of clout that I wasn't able to get in my current positions after my masters and I was struggling with, you know, seeing how I could go beyond. I also didn't imagine a life outside of having a PhD like very early on. You know, once I wasn't doing the medical degree, I had kind of outlined this path of well, I must I will eventually get a PhD and so I didn't imagine a life outside of it. I think one of the things I really appreciated in my postdoc that I got to do after my PhD at Hopkins was seeing that there's a whole other world out there and that to me was very, very important. And I think that is something that I take very seriously and I love to tell everybody and especially, you know younger folks who were finishing college or and or looking at pursuing a masters or a higher degree that you should and can work and there are jobs in different fields. You should explore different fields and then afterwards, once you, if you know whatever degree you do, there are a variety of things that you can do. Just because the you know the professors around you had one path or, you know, a few people around you had that one path doesn't mean that that's the only path for you. So, make sure that you explore your options. And I didn't take the idea of networking very seriously early in my career and in my life up until about a year ago. But I appreciate the importance of networking, not just like a networking for the sake of networking to, you know, to get a job, but networking so you can learn from people. And you can hear about people's experiences. And then you can just expand your world view. I think it's beautiful and powerful to do that. And I've learned a lot just from hearing people’s stories and kind of try to understand, you know what would and would not work for me. I mean, if I hadn't, I wouldn't be where I am right now. So definitely, really recommend that to folks in the who are interested in, you know, pursuing whatever path that they network.

Brooklyn Arroyo

I think a big part of the positive aspects of academia come from the networking aspects of it, of meeting all the other students and all the professors that you would have and all of that. Do you feel that in any aspect just because before the work that you did before your PhD you were talking about working with trans health and trans individuals and that sort of research, and then you jumped into health, behavior, and society, do you feel that any identities that you hold impacted the work that you did within your PhD or what you strive to study? I know that for many people, it does for me, it definitely does and I would like to probably more at your thoughts on that.

Anushka Aqil

Yes, I did want to quickly say so you just mentioned Brooklyn that you know academia, there's the benefit of seeing what your professors and different experience have. I would argue that actually. So, what my postdoc was looking at was building out programming for doctorate students to experience nonacademic careers. Because the feedback that we got is they don't know what to do outside of academia. And so, a lot of people, once they finish the PhD program, a majority of them end up staying in academia because they don't know what the opportunities are. So, I would say that I think PHutures is an example. It's how I know about PHutures. Is a great example of offering opportunities in different fields, but I don't think that's available across all the schools. So, I would say that, depending on which school you're in, you know that that may not be as available. That being said, so, I, uh, my opinion is not uh, the most popular opinion, but for me, this was important. So, I got into queer and trans health research because I'm of the communities and I was in the community when I was back in Atlanta and so I felt comfortable and but my research interest really for my for my studies, I was looking at intimate partner violence amongst South Asian immigrant communities so that I was like definitely, you know, I feel part of the community and I wanted to do work, you know, with communities that I'm like when you walk in, you're like look at me and you're like, OK, we're good. When I came to Baltimore, I didn't find that sense of community in either the South Asian immigrant communities or the queer and trans communities. I couldn't find that bubble that I had built in Atlanta. And I'm so I very quickly decided not to pursue my doctorate in those realms because I was like, well, if I'm not of the community, if I can't find my in and I yeah, like I it didn't sit well with me. I did continue working on the topics of trans health and non-binary health and you know connected with the communities a lot but it still wasn't as strong. And so, I didn't feel right also the amount of research that's done in the city of Baltimore is very, it's a lot more than Atlanta. So, there was a lot of things that shifted my research point, but I started looking at how public health is taught at the school. It was actually fueled by a few friends of mine. We were all just really frustrated by the curriculum and by how public health was being taught and felt that the racist and oppressive and transphobic undertones were too much. And so, we were like, well, how can we change that and so a couple of friends, Gunam Biryani and Deep Powerful started talking about anti-oppression. When I looked into it more and we started doing workshops around anti-oppression and then I connected with my mentors Crystal Lee, yellow Jacques and Graham Booney and then my advisor Danielle Germaine, kind of all just supported me and looking at how to understand what is anti-oppressive. I had to go Gen public health and so that's what I focused on. I felt like this is something I can speak on. This is, you know, it impacts me. Therefore, I can talk. That so yeah, I believe that for me, I feel comfortable engaging in research where it either has a direct impact on me or I can speak to it and say that I have experienced this. So that’s what I focused my dissertation on, and again, HBS was a department where I came to because I it had interest. There were people that I was interested in working with. And also, it's considered the Social Justice Department at the School of Public Health, you know, uh and so it's where I, uh, connected to. There are other departments that also do that. I would say international health has their social and behavioral science track that is also very much on par into similar work. And so, I had mentors from there as well. So, I mean, there is lots of work happening across the school on topic of changing the system, but yeah, that's where it landed. I don't think it's necessarily specific to health behavior society. I think it's—I was lucky enough to find people who supported my work and I got to do that work.

Brooklyn Arroyo

That's excellent. That very excellent. I think that all the points that you've made today have been impactful for me personally to hear the end result of where you are now. I think that you you've had an amazing experience and quite the journey within just your PhD in general. Like most people, don't really get necessarily all those lessons until after their PhD and they start going into different jobs and sort of things like that. I think that you've already spoke on a lot of great lessons to learn and I appreciated working with you today. So, we have one last question that we ask of all interviewees, and that is what inspires you right now?

Anushka Aqil

Of course, you would leave the hardest question for the end. It’s OK, that's what we all do in qual work. What inspires me, kind of I, you know, but honestly, what inspires me is my community. It's the people I'm surrounded by who make me want to be better and do better for, as selfish as this sounds, for a world for us. I want to change systems. I want to see, you know, I want to see white supremacy culture ended. I want to see, I want to imagine a new future, a new a new world. I am not that innovative or creative, but I have been lucky and fortunate to be surrounded by innovative, creative, fantastical thinkers who see beyond the ******** of every day. So, I'm I am inspired by them and I want to do better for them. And you know, ergo for us. Um, yeah, that's what keeps me going. My beautiful 3 animals who are all lying next to me right now. Pit bulls are the best. And yeah, they are my family and so it's for them. I imagine a better world. I don't know what that better world is but, you know something where marginalization is not the conversation we have to keep having, but something of the past. But again. I don't know what that looks like, but that's what I would hope for. Not an inspiring thing to end on, but you know my community, my community keeps me going and my community is what I exist for.

Brooklyn Arroyo

Yeah, I would argue that it is inspiring for a lot of people shared with you. So yes, thank you again for speaking on your experiences today. I loved having you, interviewing you and hope to speak with you again.

Anushka Aqil

Absolutely. Thank you so much.