Dr. Elliot Wainwright, PhD in Materials Science & Engineering | Research Materials Engineer at US Army, DEVCOM Army Research Laboratory

In this episode, we discuss the fundamental role of mentoring in Elliot’s decision to pursue his PhD in Materials Science and Engineering and throughout his graduate program, the importance of forming relationships with peers both within and external to his cohort, and how he intentionally aligned his graduate work and career search to successfully land a job with the Department of Defense (DOD).

Hosted by Lois Dankwa

To connect with Elliot and to learn more about his story, visit his page on the PHutures #100AlumniVoices Project website.

Transcript

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Lois Dankwa

Hi! I'm co-host, Lois Dankwa, and this is the 100 alumni voices podcast, stories that inspire, where we explore the personal and professional journeys of a diverse group of 100 doctoral alumni from Johns Hopkins University. Today, we're joined by Elliot Wainwright, PhD in Material science and engineering and current research materials engineer at US Army, DEVCOM Army Research Laboratory. Hi Elliot.

Elliot Wainwright

Hello! How are you?

Lois Dankwa

I'm good. It's it's the weekend, and it's nice to just enjoy all the things that come with that. How about you?

Elliot Wainwright

Good. Doing good, a little overcast, but excited, to get out and about in Baltimore today. Enjoy the city.

Lois Dankwa

Yeah. I looked at the window, and I was like, I mean, it's not sunny, but it’s okay.

Elliot Wainwright

We could work with that. We could work with that

Lois Dankwa

This is true. Well, I wanna dive in and first hear a little bit about why you pursued a PhD in material science and engineering, and really just learn more about what your graduate work was like.

Elliot Wainwright

Yeah, so I, I actually went to a small Liberal Arts college. It's called the College of Wooster, in Wooster, Ohio, and a lot of the focus of that institution is on their big senior independent study, they call it, or IS. And that IS program was really sort of a glimpse into what graduate level research would be, and is really like, I had a wonderful advisor there, Dr. Susan Layman, who was my IS advisor, and I think over the course of that whole program, that senior year is sort of like a one-on-one, you know Mentor Mentees or research relationship. I kind of saw what grad school would be like, and I I don't know. I just fell in love with it. You know I did my undergrad in in physics and math, and so it was the whole IS program that I did was kind of the first experience I had with actual sort of benchtop, tabletop physics experiments and I knew I wanted to do something more applied, and she was, she's a condensed matter physicist. And so that's kind of like in the materials realm. And so, when I was applying for grad school, I was targeting sort of applied physics or material science programs. And and yeah, and fell in love with the with the program here. The visit that I had was just wonderful with the with the department, and everybody was super welcoming. And and yeah, so that that's kind of like the that's why I think grad school ended up working out for me at least from an educational standpoint. But I always kind of knew that I wanted to do something in the sciences, and and be in the lab with, you know, working with my hands. I had a wonderful internship while I was at Wooster that was at NASA Langley. That was a really really cool experience, and I think was another driver for me to go into the materials realm. And and yeah, I sort of, I sort of just saw the PhD as sort of the natural extension of what I had done in my undergrad.

Lois Dankwa

That's that's really interesting to hear. And I love how you mentioned how both an independent research and internship experience really helped you really try out what you would be doing during your PhD. And it makes me curious, then, when you got to your PhD Program, how was it similar or different to what you expected? Since you kind of had an idea of what you wanted to continue.

Elliot Wainwright

Yeah, definitely, I would say definitely similar in the sense that I was sort of aware of the of the day to day, of what that would be like. I think sort of unexpected in maybe the ways that it would kind of shape my career and sort of the the ways it would, I don't know, sort of the ways that it would really determine what I ended up doing as a like a research focus with my career. And so yeah, I don't know. It’s a combination of like, I sort of knew what the day-to-day was going to be like going into it. And then once we once I finally got there, it was, I would say, maybe in that regard as expected, but the people you meet along the way, and the sort of things that you know as you're like doing individual research projects, you find something that inspires you, you meet someone who asks you an interesting question, and and you know, as a grad student, you kind of have the, you know you've got your your your grant and your program you’ve gotta be working on. But it's also you have a lot of leeway as a grad student to kind of take something in a different direction and try to carve out what might be your niche if you decide to stay in that field. So, I was surprised a lot with the people who I was meeting, and and sort of the experiences that I was having and and where that sort of took me later on, so.

Lois Dankwa

Yeah, I love that. I love how it's it's nice, because it sounds like you had an idea of what things you wanted to experience, and then you were able to kind of respond to like, okay, yeah, this is consistent with what I want and keep going. And I'm curious how you were able to notice what things were good choices for you to pursue and excuse me, which ones were maybe like were there experiences where you were like, okay, I mean, this is okay. But it's not quite the direct direction I want, whether it was in your program or things you thought about doing afterwards? Like, how do you pick?

Elliot Wainwright

Yeah, yeah, it's a really good question. Well, I think for one thing, it's it helps to have good mentors to bounce ideas off of. And you know, I've I've been really fortunate throughout my sort of career thus far to have really excellent mentors and and so it's, you know, having a sounding board of someone where you can say like, you know, what part of my day to day do I actually like? Is it the materials characterization? Or is it the more theoretical aspect? Or do I want to get into something computational? And you know, people can give you feedback on like what your strengths are and and can say, well, you know, you seem to really enjoy this. And you know, sort of confirm or otherwise give you, you know, advice that might guide your thoughts a bit. So that was really helpful. I had a wonderful advisor when I was at Hopkins, Tim Weiss, in material science. Still friends with him to this day. You know it's that kind of relationship. He served as a great mentor. I was able to really, you know, he he helped hone sort of the the direction that my career would take. And I think it's good to surround yourself with people who are supportive that are gonna be able to say, you know, think about, think about doing it this way. Or on on the, you know, on the flip side, perhaps you should think you know, perhaps you shouldn't think about it that way. You know, so I don't know. I do think that like having a sounding board and having people who you surround yourself with who can give you open and honest feedback, who you have a good relationship with was like super critical for me to to actually you know among the day-to-day of going into lab and collecting the data and writing the papers, you know, to be able to speak to what your career might end up looking like, you know, looking trying to look like 10-15 years down the road what do you envision yourself being, so.

Lois Dankwa

Yeah, no, yeah. You mentors play such an important role. And it's it's funny because mentors can come from so many different directions. Like, literally, yesterday, I emailed the mentor that at this point I've known for 8 years. And he doesn't even really work in the same field as me. So, he can't speak to that, but because he knows me as a person, it's like, it's still, sometimes their the people that can just help you get out of your own head. And yeah, they're so valuable

Elliot Wainwright

Exactly. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Couldn't. Couldn't agree more.

Lois Dankwa

Yeah. Go ahead.

Elliot Wainwright

And that could be, you know, even friends or family could do the same thing too, right. But I think it's I do think it's kind of critical to get information and and advice with context. And I think you know, if you have good mentors, even if they have gone through a separate sort of experience to get to where they're getting, sometimes it's good to get that outside perspective.

Lois Dankwa

Yeah, I, when I first started my PhD program, I saw this, it was like a mentor map. And it basically highlighted that there, you can have a mentor for a lot of different roles and one person doesn't have to fill every role.

Elliot Wainwright

Yup!

Lois Dankwa

And that was such great like a great piece of advice for me to get when I started my program, because it was like, okay, cool, certain people can be like my topical person, others can be my methods people. And it's helpful because it can be often challenging to, if you have a very out in the box idea, or something to find multiple people that understand exactly what you're talking about.

Elliot Wainwright

Yeah, exactly. There's almost never the right person for every problem, right?

Lois Dankwa

Yeah.

Elliot Wainwright

For every everything. You might wanna you know, there might be someone who you might go to if you're in a really rough spot, and you need to talk to them about you know, you know, just overcoming some adversity. And that might not be the same person who you go to to bounce a new research idea off of right. 

Lois Dankwa

Yeah.

Elliot Wainwright

So, it's it's critical to kinda you know have that diversity and support network. So, but yeah.

Lois Dankwa

Well, I'm curious then, for kind of the mentors that you've had. So, this is a 2-part question. So, if you are—there certain people that you kind of thought oh, this seems like a mentor I'd like to have, and you reached out to them specifically. And if so, how did you do that? But then I'm also just curious about any advice that really sticks out from some of your mentors that you're still carrying with you now.

Elliot Wainwright

Yeah. Good question. I would say the first part, I don't know that I've ever approached anyone that formally and like asked, would you be my mentor?

Lois Dankwa

Right.

Elliot Wainwright

But I what I tend to do is just make myself like glue, and I just and I just kind of tend to put myself in the same rooms and situations and meetings with that person repeatedly until I might be in a position where I could, you know I could use them as a sounding board. And oftentimes I don't know, I do think that like a mentor relationship, there has to be a level of respect, and there has to be a level of sort of interpersonal connection. And I do think that that's sort of that's critical, and that's hard to do. I don't know. Maybe this is just my opinion. I think that's kind of hard to do in a sort of artificial manner of you know you set up a you set up a meeting, and you say I'd like you to be my mentor, and here's what I'm looking to get out of it. I don't—that's not usually my approach. But yeah, I just tend to, you know, I'm not afraid to ask people questions for the most part, and I think that that oftentimes, if I you know, when I found myself in in different or new situations, I I would just ask you know. And then the second part of your question, was advice.

Lois Dankwa

Yeah.

Elliot Wainwright

And it’s a it's a really good question. I've gotten tons of great advice over the years. I still take, I still sort of I still sort of default to a conversation that I had with my PhD Advisor when I think about good advice. It was towards the end of my PhD, and him and I were just, I think, maybe talking about the thesis writing, or one of the later papers that we were doing. We were sitting in his office, and he, he basically just, he kind of I you know I was waffling between a couple of job options, and he, you know he's a family man himself, and he's, you know, an excellent researcher, and has, you know, and has an amazing research team. And and so I was just kind of looking to him for more life advice than maybe research advice. And you know he just he just kind of gave me the and you know I'm paraphrasing here. I can’t give you a direct quote, but just the advice that, like as you're going forward in your career to be thinking about what makes you happy every day, right? And if there's something, one part of the of the research that doesn't make you happy, or that you feel like you don't, that's not bringing any sort of personal satisfaction on top of professional satisfaction, then that's okay. And then you to do try to, you know, guide your career in a place that's gonna sort of have that balance. And I don't know, that always kind of stuck with me. I mean, you gotta have a balance between what you know. I don't think I could personally work at a job that's just for the money. And I don't think that I could be at a job that was just, for you know, that didn't have a good work-life balance, or that was, you know, for cause that I you know that I didn't feel strongly about. And I think and I couldn't do a job that I didn't find the research interesting, either. But you know, maybe got paid a lot, you know, and so I think that that was his point, is that trying to find that sweet spot and sort of checking in with yourself as your career goes forward. So, that always kind of stuck with me, because, you know he was, he was just talking, you know. He was thinking more along the lines of the research and the interpersonal balance. But you know, I think that that that advice kind of is, is broadly applicable to a lot of aspects of life, so.

Lois Dankwa

Yeah, that's definitely a good point. It's that it's always kind of doing that gut check when you're in a circumstance, whether it's thinking about your career, thinking about the next step for your doctoral studies or anything like that.

Elliot Wainwright

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Lois Dankwa

I love that you mentioned that mentor relationships. It's funny because certain things once you put a term to it, then it makes it feel more like technical and like there has to be a process attached to it. 

Elliot Wainwright

Paperwork.

Lois Dankwa

Right. It's like, Oh, this person is my mentor.

Elliot Wainwright

Yeah. Yeah. Sign, sign, this form, yeah.

Lois Dankwa

You must have right exactly. Outreached 4 times. You signed a contract. 

Elliot Wainwright

Yup, yup.

Lois Dankwa

It's resubscribed, but often it's very informal where it's like, oh, you just met them by chance, like at a conference, or like basically someone connected you two. And it was, it was a personality, and like vibe and match. And I think that certain time certain times people can get stuck in their heads about it because of a number of reasons and it's it's helpful that you kind of highlighted, no, it can happen organically. It's kind of just finding the people that you align with, and I a couple of weeks ago, maybe months ago at this point, I heard someone say that sometimes people try so hard to form relationships like with the people above them, like mentors and stuff. But sometimes it's the people that are coming up around you like so horizontally. 

Elliot Wainwright

Oh, yeah.

Lois Dankwa

Those relationships are the really valuable ones that you can learn from. And I'm curious how, while you were doing your PhD and thinking about career stuff afterwards, like you mentioned friends and family, but then also you had your cohort and just other people that you've known that are continuing to grow professionally, and I'm curious about those relationships and what really helped from those, and reaching in those buckets

Elliot Wainwright

Yeah, I mean, I would say, this is a great question, cause there's so many people who are going through the same experiences, or were just, you know, a couple of years ahead who had just had the experiences. I have some, some very close grad school friends who are in my research at my research group, but were ahead of me. So, maybe like 2 or 3 years ahead of me in the program, maybe 4 years. And they, I think were super critical in me, sort of getting my foundation established in Baltimore, to realize that, and these are like incredibly smart people too, and so they were sort of inspiring to say, you know, to try to learn things that they knew, to try to learn from them on a day-to-day basis, and that's sort of on the research side. But like also, they're just like great people. And actually being able to become friends with them informally. And you know some of them are still lifelong friends to this day. I think it was critical for me to like, really see that it could be done, and it could like, you know, that. Yeah, yeah, no. I'll just full stop there, that it could be done, you know. And these, and these were people who I knew were very, very smart, you know. I don't necessarily need to drop any names, but they know who they are, like very, very close friends of mine who were struggling or facing adversity or were or you think or the programs seem to be grinding on, or they were in the middle of trying to write their thesis or you know they they struggled to pass their qualifying exam, or whatever it was, and just seeing that it could be done, you know, I think, was really, really helpful for me. And I had other relationships too that weren't within my weren't within the research group itself. You know, I did a lot of stuff with the GRO, the graduate representative organization at the Homewood campus when I was at Hopkins. I made some good relationships through that. And there are people who I worked with there who still inspire me, and are still out there, you know kicking ass in the real world now. And it's it's great to be able to have all of these positive experiences and sort of positive role models among my peer group, because it sort of elevates all of us. I think you know it inspires me to try to do better at what I'm doing, and I think probably that works for them vice versa too, you know, so.

Lois Dankwa

Yeah, definitely. Yeah, some of the closest people to me in my just my PhD experience are years above me, and I think the saddest part is that then they graduate, and you're like, oh no.

Elliot Wainwright

Yeah, it's a very, it is a sad day when your you know your research team of of you know you become the, you become the oldest person in the research team. That is a it is a very sort of lonely feeling after a while, cause you're like, wow, I'm that guy versus someone else now, you know.

Lois Dankwa

Yeah, it's which is nice, but it's it's it's definitely bittersweet for sure.

Elliot Wainwright

Yeah, for sure.

Lois Dankwa

So, something I'm curious about is, when you were closer to the end of being in your doctoral program, how, like what were your thoughts about career plans? So, you said that you had a couple of different things that you were considering. But even just throughout the program, and when you were near the end, what did you think and envision you would be doing? And then is, are you doing it?

Elliot Wainwright

Yeah, yeah. I would say, I am actually, which is, I guess, probably probably more uncommon than I would think it would be for people to sort of land exactly where they want and hope to be. I always, so I will say when I came into my PhD Program I wanted to find and Advisor that had some sort of DOD funding, because I knew ultimately, I wanted to go into government work. I really, and that was also sort of going back to like when I had that experience at NASA Langley. The people who I had worked with there, you know, spoke very highly of working in the government. It's it's for the most part a very stable job. A lot of it is very mission focused, you know, and I think that that helps me keep the research in context and have, you know, the applications of the research actually have a tangible result in some way shape or form. So, I knew that I wanted to do work with the government, so that so the options that I had lined up were with the army research lab, where I ended up ultimately, and then with Lawrence Livermore National Lab out in California. And both great options. And I, you know I think I would have been happy at either. I I sort of purposefully sought connections with folks during my PhD Program in the sectors that I wanted to end up in, and that was very intentional on my end. I, you know, I think it's, I tried to keep my options open a little bit, but I never really even—I sort of put my blinders on in some ways to like academic or even private industry contacts and trying to seek those connections. So, for me I guess it was pretty intentional. You know, like as I was, you know, going to conferences and stuff throughout my PhD program, the people whose posters I would stop at, and you know and and shake a hand and try to talk to and build a connection with, you know the those were always going to be the folks at at government labs. So, I think maybe because I put all my chips into one, you know, into one bet that probably helped me end up where I want to be. But, I you know that's also not the right approach for everyone, for sure, because I know it's a pretty specific, you know, going into government work is a pretty specific outlet of one's interests and talents and they have to really coincide. And it's not for everyone. But, like for me, it ended up being a basically exactly what I wanted to do. I remember writing my essay for my undergraduate admissions package was about trying to do research to you know, help soldiers, and help the war fighter and try to make sure that they could come home safe, and that has basically stuck with me throughout my entire career. And I'm not doing exactly what I wrote about, you know, in the in that in that letter originally, but it's so close to my intent of where I wanted to end up that I think the single driver has kind of been helpful for me in some ways because it's kept me focused on you know places that I knew I could work, or places that I wanted to work. You know there's only so many research facilities for the DOD, and there's so many agencies doing, you know, giving this kind of funding or doing this kind of work. So, it does kind of narrow into a cone, and I just try to direct all my attention at the you know the funnel that cone. So, that was, that was kind of my approach, I guess. So, yeah, but I think one thing that really did help was actually finding that PhD program that had funding from an agent from a DOD agency because I knew I wanted to work in some sort of DOD facility with the government and because you were getting funding from that that puts you in the same rooms throughout my entire PhD program as other people with that similar funding. And yeah, that that really helped. That would actually be a piece of advice, I would say, like, if people envision themselves working somewhere, you know, looking around at at graduate programs that have funding from a specific agency that they may be interested in can definitely help.

Lois Dankwa

Yeah. That's a good point. It's you know, it's funny you something you mentioned. Well, you mentioned a lot of awesome things, and I always have to pick something, one thing, but it's you mentioned how you were like, yeah, I kind of knew what I wanted to do, and I honed in, and I did it, and it's awesome. But something I'm pulling away really is there was a lot of intentionality with what you did, and you did a good job of realizing what your like consistent interest was, and that takes a lot of like reflection, and also you said you went back to look at your undergrad letter, and you're like, Oh, okay, this is something I wanted to do all along. And I think sometimes people can get really caught up in their heads about like how to make intentional choices. But even for myself, I I look at a letter I wrote to a professor in undergrad when I wanted to go to Med school, and I described what I wanted to do, and it's what I'm doing now. It's not going to medical school. So, it's like sometimes it's as easy as just along the way writing down what your current thoughts are. And then, when you're in one of those moments, you go back and look and go, oh, this can provide me some clarity. I do know what I want, and—go ahead

Elliot Wainwright

Yeah. No, I was just gonna I was just gonna say, yeah, that that's completely right. Or on the flip side, you might write it down, and then, you know subconsciously making decisions throughout your your program or whatever. And then you look back and you're like, holy crap I am doing exactly what I wanted to be doing.

Lois Dankwa

Yeah.

Elliot Wainwright

It just it can be a long road, so. 

Lois Dankwa

Yeah, it's it's a long road, but the patience is necessary. 

Elliot Wainwright

For sure.

Lois Dankwa

So, you you said a lot of really great things today. And I'm I have one more question for you, and I am curious what inspires you right now?

Elliot Wainwright

What inspires me right now? Yeah, I, what do you, just for research? For my life in general? What?

Lois Dankwa

I mean, take that question however you would like. I'm very curious.

Elliot Wainwright

Yeah. Well, my wife is a daily inspiration for me, so I have to I have to give her a ton of credit in terms of what keeps me motivated. She's an M3 in med school down in Virginia, and just how hard she works it just in that that inspires me to try to be the best person I can be for sure. So, I would say, just in my general life, that's a that's a huge one. In my research world, you know, I think, what inspires me the most is getting to interact with soldiers on a near daily basis. And and those in interactions inspire me to kind of realize that the work that I do is for a very, very important purpose. Not only from the national security aspect, but for you know individual soldiers’ lives, and that as long as I keep that in my mind, you know, whatever bureaucratic hold ups or nightmares that might occur for government work, and I say that would love, it's much easier to get through those challenges when when I sort of keep that when I keep this sort of reason that I do what I do in mind, and those interactions help a lot. I would say, those are probably the main 2 things that inspire me. I'm I'm I'm inspired by people, I think mostly. I think I think people inspire me.

Lois Dankwa

Yeah, I hear that. I’m very much inspired by people, too. And I love how you mentioned that sometimes it's just seeing the people who I'm doing the work for and around, and it's like, yeah, this is why, why we're doing this every day, Elliot, you know.

Elliot Wainwright

Yeah, yeah, and and don't get me wrong, like in general, I'm a pretty pessimistic person. So, I need these like, I need these little sparks of of, you know, interactions that, like, you know, keep me going and keep me hopeful, so. But I, but I am. I am.

Lois Dankwa

Well, thank you, thank you, thank you for taking time to chat with us today, Elliot.

Elliot Wainwright

Of course.

Lois Dankwa

It's been great to hear a little bit about your story, and what has gotten you to this moment.

Elliot Wainwright

Yeah, thank you for having me. I appreciate you having me on.