In this episode, we discuss how Yasamin navigated the decision to pursue a postdoc and a career in academia versus industry, her advice for managing feelings of insecurity and imposter syndrome, and the challenges and opportunities of relocating to different countries to pursue her academic and professional aspirations.
Hosted by Michael Wilkinson
To connect with Yasamin and to learn more about her story, visit her page on the PHutures #100AlumniVoices Project website.
In this episode, we discuss how Yasamin navigated the decision to pursue a postdoc and a career in academia versus industry, her advice for managing feelings of insecurity and imposter syndrome, and the challenges and opportunities of relocating to different countries to pursue her academic and professional aspirations.
Hosted by Michael Wilkinson
To connect with Yasamin and to learn more about her story, visit her page on the PHutures #100AlumniVoices Project website.
Michael Wilkinson
Hello, everyone. I'm co-host, Michael Wilkinson, and this is the 100 and alumni voices podcast, stories that inspire, where we explore the personal and professional journeys of a diverse group of 100 doctoral alumni from Johns Hopkins University. Today we're joined by Yasamin Nazari. She received her PhD in computer science from Johns Hopkins in 2021, is now a postdoc in Salzburg, Austria, and is soon to be an assistant professor at the University of Amsterdam, VU Amsterdam. Yasamin welcome to the Podcast.
Yasamin Nazari
Thank you for having me.
Michael Wilkinson
So, you're currently a postdoc, soon to be an assistant professor. I think a lot of people see, you know a PhD in CS, and there is a very heavy pull toward the industry right now, for a lot of reasons. I saw that you even interned at Google in 2020 for 4 months. So, it seems even kind of toward the end of your PhD you were still exploring the industry. So, that being said, what ultimately led you to the Academia route, and what were the advantages you saw in Academia that you maybe wouldn't get in the industry that led you to that decision?
Yasamin Nazari
Right, so it's interesting, because I think a lot of people refined their decisions closer to the end of their PhD. But somehow, I went the other way around. Like I was pretty sure I wanted to do an academic job for most of my undergrad and masters. But close to the end I actually became more open to the idea of doing an industry job, and especially I thought that maybe I should do an internship to get a real sense of it and realize if it's something that I would be interested in. And in the end I realized, yes, I could probably be happy also in certain industry jobs, because I learned more about the kind of more interesting industry jobs that could also have components that somehow are related to research, even if not directly, but at least basically I could use my PhD knowledge for doing those kind of positions. So, basically, I was kind of open to both ideas, except that I was kind of more comfortable with academic environment. And there were certain benefits. For example, it still seemed like I would be a little bit more free in the kind of research I could do in Academia. And also, I still like education. I still wanted to have more chance of teaching and mentoring, and I realize all of those were also possible in industry. And you know there were different kind of immigration barriers in the two sides. So, it ended up taking a path more toward academic. But I thought that I could also potentially be happy in some industry jobs.
Michael Wilkinson
So, you said, even from like your undergraduate, you, you had a strong inclination that you wanted to go into like the Academia route. What drove that? Because I think there's still people even who would kind of go into their PhD unsure. And there are some people who are like pretty sure from the start. And I think you were more so in the latter category. So, I'm kind of curious, like what was like the driving force behind like, oh, this is what I know I want to do?
Yasamin Nazari
So, my research area is in the theoretical computer science, which is basically like the mathematical foundation of computer science. And somehow, I actually came to computer science because it's connections to discrete math. And that's why it's always seemed to me like if I want to do the kind of computer science as was very close to math, I would have to be in academia, even though, of course, as as I learned more about possible industry positions I realized maybe some of the things I find interesting could also be in industry. But I don't know. Like ever since I was in high school, I was like obsessed with math and proofs, and it seemed to me like Academia might be the more relevant direction for doing these things, and you know, so that's why from the beginning I thought I would like to pursue a direction that is more theoretical let's say.
Michael Wilkinson
That makes a lot of sense. So, I'm I'm kinda curious, you know, having seen both worlds. So, I know, like I, so I do robotics, and I think about this a lot when I'm thinking about industry of jobs is that I think a lot of students in programming-based industries worry like, okay, I might not have like a specific languages or the specific processes that like this company is looking for and get really nervous about that. I'm curious in a CS academic route, if there are things not exactly like that, but kind of akin to that where you're nervous that like I don't have this specific skillset, but you kind of overcame that fear, and still applied, and still like, went for it.
Yasamin Nazari
Yes, certainly. I mean, there's many of those things also, because research is a very multi-dimensional thing. So, I think you will feel insecure about something in this whole multi-dimensional aspect of research. But I think in the specific area that I do, theoretical computer science, the main barrier for myself, and probably some other people, is that it looks like you have to be very smart to be able to succeed in it, or at least it kind of seemed like that to me when I was in undergrad, because at least back home it seemed like a lot of students who went abroad to study in this area were Olympiad medal winners, and I did not have any Olympiad medals. And it seems kind of intimidating to be in the same, let's say, area as all these super smart people. And well, I didn't think I was as smart as them. I think some people might be in the same situation, and, in fact, this is an area that a lot of people in computer science are, I think, intimidated by for this reason. But I think over time, especially as I collaborated with more and more people, including these smart people, I realized that there's, as I mentioned, a lot of different dimensions to succeeding in all areas, including this area. So, I think intelligence maybe is one aspect, and I think a lot of people have that level of intelligence if they're already interested enough to do this kind of work. But there's many different aspects that could help you succeed. That was maybe unclear to me earlier, like I could see that everyone has some skills and some weaknesses. And you know you just learn how to balance them overall and make it through.
Michael Wilkinson
Yeah, like, I know, going through Hopkins, one of the things they kind of emphasize a lot in your first couple of years is that you might feel imposter syndrome. And that's okay. And I think almost everyone does going into it. Like, I'm at this really good university, and I I mean, I certainly feel like that, like I'm not super intelligent, like these other people. Did kind of going through Hopkins, and when you graduated out, knowing that you graduated from this place where you were supposed to kind of have this little bit of this imposter syndrome, did you feel more confident in your kind of abilities that you had and like more ready to face the world when you left? Or did it kind of cycle back to that original feeling when you entered once you were leaving?
Yasamin Nazari
Yeah. So, I think in some level, like, I was never particularly concerned about graduating. But I always felt like the path to actually getting an academic carrier, or the kind of carrier that I really like, like maybe more research-oriented industry jobs or academic jobs is going to be very difficult and very competitive. And I think up to the point where I actually got such a position, I still had this insecurity, not necessarily because of impostor syndrome alone, but because it just seems like there's more people who graduate than people who, basically there's more people than there are positions. But then I also found that people usually have a lot of other concerns, constraints that basically means that they don't even look at certain positions. So, for example, I was open to academic jobs, regardless of necessarily whether they will be in a very high ranked university, and I noticed, if I don't insist on very high ranked universities, I probably have a better chance, and I, for example, noticed that there's again more to getting these jobs than the things that we can quantify very easy. For example, they care about how you present yourself, or what your story is, or how good you were at potentially mentoring people. Yeah. So, I think it's some somehow never fully went away. But at least I learned that a lot of people feel the same way. Maybe I managed to cope with it better over time.
Michael Wilkinson
Yeah, absolutely. And I think you know of the constraints you mentioned, one of them is basically the willingness to work in like a new country. So, I know, like a lot of people, when they get their PhD tend to hang out like in the country they got their PhD in. But you, you ended up in Salzburg, which is super interesting. So, I'm at least for your postdoc, and then you're gonna be in Amsterdam right for your your assistant professorship. So, you know, how did you end up in Salzburg? Was it just like previous connections, or was it just kind of like this kind of scatter shot applying to labs that you liked? And was there any, I mean, I know that you you weren't US domestic originally, but was there any fear of like moving to another new place for your postdoc or not really?
Yasamin Nazari
Well, in fact, Salzburg actually is the fifth country I'm living in. So, at this point it doesn't seem that intimidating anymore. I grew up in Iran. I moved to Canada for my masters. Then I did an internship in France, and I moved to US. So, at this point the moving country bit became kind of okay, except that every time I have to deal with immigration stuff is always a bit stressful. But yeah, so the other thing is at each stage, I try to find a career option that works well, and it took me to interesting places that I ended up feeling attached to. So, for example, Salzburg, the reason I came here is because my post-doc host works on very related areas. So, I had read his papers and worked on similar problems. So, I knew that we could basically be productive. And we kind of have the same kind of open problems that we like to solve. So, more or less it was really a natural choice, but it was a question of do I want to leave the US or not. And it seemed like for various boots, you know, personal and professional reasons, it's not a bad idea to move to Europe, because there are some opportunities, and it's been probably a good decision and also, yeah, it's an interesting as Alpine city with the low mountains. So, it's it's I didn't choose based on the city. But it's also interesting to explore something unexpected personally, too.
Michael Wilkinson
Yeah, so I think a lot of people that go the postdoc route it is kind of what you talked about of, like, you know, having that connection, or having someone who works kind of in that field you want to work in. So, I'm curious both for when it came to actually securing that postdoc position, and then eventually getting your assistant professorship, you know you mentioned more more people than there are jobs right? So, what kind of methods did you find? We'll start with the postdoc, like what methods did you find useful for actually like securing that connection, and, like, you know, like making that a productive connection? And then what methods did you find most useful for then when you want to actually apply for your assistant professorship, and like securing that as well?
Yasamin Nazari
Alright. So, for the postdoc, what I've noticed is that because it's like a short program, the fact that I work on very related stuff kind of helped, because it seems like I'm interested to work with someone and they're equally interested to work with me because we both work on similar things. And I think somehow this helped me more than if I wanted to say, let me find the highest rank university that I could get into. Like I didn't even try to go to universities based on their name. And I went based on the research area because I thought at this point just having more productive research is probably more helpful than university name. And I think on the other side, probably for someone who has a postdoc position, this is also beneficial for them to give and offer to someone who works on very related stuff, because that means in this short time, they don't have to spend like half of that time just getting them to know what the specific area is about. So, I think, basically being willing to move to this specific, maybe unusual place, but to work on something that I clearly am familiar with, this was probably something that helped me with the postdoc a lot. And for assistant professor position, that's a little bit more difficult, because if there's a lot of unclear factors there. Again, I think, being open to going to places to new places is probably always something that opens up opportunities and I'm guessing probably on the side of people who review applications, if someone has more experience, or they have like, I'm not exactly sure what they they consider, but I think maybe things like, if someone has a background from a different place, say US, and now they're trying to apply for jobs in Europe, maybe this can be seen somehow positively because maybe you have some insight, that I can share, and otherwise I don't know. I think I basically gave them a story about what I think my research will look like in the next couple of years, and somehow they seem to be convinced for some reason.
Michael Wilkinson
I'm sure they were convinced that you laid out a very good story for them. So, I so I'm also curious. So, you're not that far from graduating out of Hopkins, and you graduated during the peaks of the pandemic. What was that kind of like for you both in terms of just like your prospects, and kind of like your time to completion, and things like that, but also just for your own kind of sanity of kind of wrapping up your degree right around these very hectic times, and then having to look for the next step during these very hectic times?
Yasamin Nazari
Right. So, you know this, there is something both, well, mostly negative, but also, somehow it can help about being an international student. That is, that we sometimes have constraints that push us to get things done. So, for example, I couldn't for much of my PhD see my parents because of visa limitations for Iranian students, and I was kind of hoping to finish my PhD soon anyway so that I could see them. And that basically meant that, unlike some of my friends that said, okay for pandemic, now we're gonna take it slow and move a little bit slower. I wanted to still move it as fast as I could. And of course, I was kind of sad that I missed out on like the last year I could be in Hopkins and some of the experiences I wished I could have. But at least somehow, interestingly, this kind of limitation sometimes seems to push us a little bit in the direction of trying to get things done faster.
Michael Wilkinson
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Was there any like, did it interrupt your research at all? Because I know, like, for example, like I work with animals, and I physically couldn't go into the lab for a time. So, I couldn't collect data. But for I know you do more theoretical work so I imagine not. But I was just curious, like if it impacted your research and all, and if it did, you know how you kind of got around it as best as you could?
Yasamin Nazari
So, yes and no, because I think it kind of impacted everyone somehow. But, as as you said, like at least the fact that my research is theoretical meant that not having access to lab resources was not a big deal. But, for example, the Google internship that you mentioned, I was hoping this would be an in-person internship, and it ended up being a remote internship, which meant that both we couldn't access Google code base, and that meant that the kind of work I did was different, and it became actually more research like. And also it might have been a different experience if I could be there in person. So, it kind of impacted me in a sense that maybe I didn't really get the kind of industry experience I wanted from that internship. But again, I am maybe lucky enough that my work was in a way that it didn't have to be interrupted.
Michael Wilkinson
Yeah, no, I think that makes a lot of sense. So, you know, I think a lot of people who are considering the postdoc route—I'm also considering the postdoc route—worry that basically the postdoc is just going to be more of like the same. And I think a lot of people try to pick something a little bit different. But I'm curious for you, you know, what are some of the things that like you really enjoy about your current postdoc position that you maybe didn't get in your graduate degree, or even if you did get in your depression degree, and it's just maybe a little different or a little more amplified now?
Yasamin Nazari
So, yeah, I mean, it is a big difference. It also depends on the person, and I guess what they decide to do in their postdoc. So, for example, postdoc seems to me to be a good place between a PhD and an academic job, because now I kind of can mentor students that are in my group. But I'm not their only advisor, so maybe I can, I have some assistance in mentoring them, and, for example, I will have more mentoring situation, basically situations here, as a postdoc, than I would have had as a PhD student. Collaboration goes a bit faster because now I know more people and I kind of have a better idea what I want to do. So, it seems like something in between becoming a faculty and a PhD student. I don't know what it would be for other people. If other people are considering industry postdoc could potentially be a situation where they can shift research area a little bit. But maybe that will be a bit more risky. So, this is something I considered, if I wanted to switch research area. But then it's a little bit risky, because, as I said, it's a short period of time. So, maybe if you spent like half of it doing something new, then you kind of run a little bit out of time. But it could also be an option like that for people.
Michael Wilkinson
Makes a lot of sense. I can imagine you said it’s somewhere between a PhD and an academic job, both of those can be very stressful, very time intensive. But I imagine that the this in between is also stressful and time intensive. So, for you and your own like personal life how do you balance like your research and work life and like your personal and fun life? Like I know you mentioned like, there's a lot of mountains nearby and stuff like that. So, I you might be exploring those a little bit. But you know what are some of the strategies you use to balance your like personal life in your work life, and what are some of the fun things that where you're at kind of affords you to do that as well?
Yasamin Nazari
Yeah, indeed the mountains help, because every time the weather is nice, or, in fact, even if it snows and I think I can do something in the mountains, I feel like I should get out and not do—I mean, I'm you know, off work hours. But yeah, I've tried to at some point make it a habit to include enough, for example, exercise, or like, for example, when I was in Hopkins I was in the Taekwondo club, and I did martial arts, a bit of soccer and that kind of thing. And they really help with the pressure. And yeah, like, I tried to make it a habit to include things like this in my schedule, and I think that has helped, even though I admit I haven't always been great at this whole work-like balance, but definitely adding activities like this. Like, for example, I was in a choir and Hopkins. Things like that definitely helped.
Michael Wilkinson
That makes a lot of sense. So, I guess you know, we're we're coming somewhat close to the end. So, I'll ask a couple more questions. I think the first of those being, what if you you kind of given a lot of kind of pieces of advice throughout for those students who are kind of in that last stage of their PhD, but you know what advice or thoughts you have for current PhDs or like PhDs that are just now kind of transitioning out as they approach either the academic world, or like the industry world, or kind of like figuring out the deciding point between those two?
Yasamin Nazari
So, I guess it's easier said than done, but I would advise them to not be intimidated, I guess. Or at least I would tell them it's very natural for people to feel insecure, and if they feel insecure or under pressure, they should realize that all of us go through this, and you know, we require a little bit of persistence, but most of us make it. So, at least I hope they realize that it's not them. It's like the process. So, everyone feels insecure, in one way or the other. And I think I mean, of course, I'm not in everyone's mind, but I think everyone is somehow insecure. So, I think they shouldn't think that it's something about them, and they should keep it in mind that they belong, and they can make it work.
Michael Wilkinson
I think that's a wonderful piece of advice, and I think you're probably more right than you know that I think everyone is a little bit, no matter what level you're at, is insecure at least a little bit of their abilities and talents. So, I think it's always good to keep that in mind. Okay, thank you so much. So, I will end it with this question, which is what what inspires you right now in the things you do both in just your work life, your personal life, or whatever that may be? What are the things that you draw inspiration from now?
Yasamin Nazari
So, I think nowadays what inspires me the most are, I guess people who face many obstacles and challenges, and they still like push through and do everything they can for their dreams or a better life. I mean I I know there are examples of these people all around the world, and I probably don't even hear about many of them. But, for example, the young people back in my home country are examples of people that really inspire me because they are just very resilient. Yeah, I think just people that I think have been in rough situations, but still made it make me always try harder.
Michael Wilkinson
Wonderful. I think that's a great sentiment to end this on. Thank you so much for your time, and I know I myself and the people listening in really appreciate it.
Yasamin Nazari
Thank you so much. It was great talking to you.