Dr. Nichelle Bowes, EdD in Education | Vice Provost of Student Affairs at the Relay Graduate School of Education

In this episode, we discuss what inspired Nichelle’s doctoral research assessing the higher education systems, policies, and practices needed to support diverse student populations, her successful implementation of this work in her roles at the Relay Graduate School of Education, and her advice for being intentional about your career exploration and building authentic professional connections.

Hosted by Lois Dankwa

To connect with Nichelle and to learn more about her story, visit her page on the PHutures #100AlumniVoices Project website.

Transcript

Lois Dankwa

Hi I'm co-host, Lois Dankwa, and this is the #100 Alumni, Voices Podcast, Stories that Inspire, where we Explore the Personal and Professional Journeys of a Diverse Group of 100 Doctoral, Alumni from Johns Hopkins University. Today, we're, joined by Nichelle, Bowes, EdD in Education and Current Vice Provost of Student Affairs at the Relay Graduate School of Education. Hi Nichelle.

Nichelle Bowes

 Hi Lois.

Lois Dankwa

So how are you today?

Nichelle Bowes

I am doing well. Today is the first day of our winter break.

Lois Dankwa

Oh!

Nichelle Bowes

So, I am doing very well.

Lois Dankwa

That's super exciting. It's not the first day of our winter break, but I'm acting like it is, which means I too, am doing very well. So, I think my first question for you is—I wanna, learn more about what you're doctoral studies were like, what drew you to get an EdD in education, and yeah, why?

Nichelle Bowes

Great question. So, I always wanted to have a terminal degree, but I have 2 Masters degrees and as you can imagine that took 4 years, 5 years of my life that I knew I was not going to be able to commit another 5 to 7 years for a traditional PhD program, and on top of which I'm more of a practitioner. I love, research and I love data. But I, love to actually take it in the moment, and do something about it right, and so actually the EdD turn out to be the best program for me because I was able to do that research, flex those skills, gather that data. And in real time, use that to solve a problem that I was having in that particular moment, and so what drew me to it really graduate school, is a relatively new, I think we've been around for like 10 or 12, years. And so we're finding our way with a lot of things, you know, in the past, our campuses used to be decentralized meaning you're in a particular location, and you decide how you want to engage with your students. How you want to support your students. You know the curriculum was all standardized, but everything else was pretty much determined by whoever that Campus leader was. And I started noticing that I'll do, though our assessments aren't Paper Pencil. They're not tests. They're not long papers that you know we write in our programs. They're more performance based, right like, you stand up you practice something that you're being taught and then you go and you apply it in your classroom and you film yourself, doing that with your k-12, students, and you submit that as an assessment, and so what I started noticing was that my Black and brown males were being outperformed by their other counterparts and I couldn't understand why, like why was this happening because it wasn't an academic thing, obviously because it wasn't paper pencil, it wasn't testing, aptitude. It was testing your application of this particular set of skills, and simultaneously, as they're submitting, these assessments, they're being observed in the classroom, so we know they're doing well in their classrooms. Why are they failing on assessments? And so that's, what drew me to my program, right, because I wanted to answer that question, and I thought I was gonna find that you know there were different ways that I needed to support my black and brown male students and what I found is that institutions, very often invite a diverse candidate pool into their institution to learn but very rarely change their systems, policies, practices to meet the needs of that diverse student, body and so there result of my doctoral program was the creation of an advisement and management, model that allowed the institution to expand to meet the needs of those students.

Lois Dankwa

Okay, so that's amazing. That's very, it's funny. Because, I've had a couple of these conversations, and sometimes the person is speaking a language. I do not understand. It's just in terms of their topic area. It sounds like you’re speaking my language, and applying it to education. So, I'm tracking, and this is exciting for me. I'm very much a practitioner myself. But then also really interested, using an understanding of research to apply to things in practice. So I guess it almost sounds like you kind of incorporated the experiences that you are already having into how you approached your doctoral studies. But I guess, how did that inform how you responded to maybe challenges you had, or what you were thinking about what you wanted to do after pursuing your EdD.

Nichelle Bowes

So, I'll be enough actually some of my experiences at Hopkins reinforced what I wanted to do for my EdD. One of the things that I always say—I mean what I want. Sorry what I wanted to do post my EdD, one of the things I always praise Hopkins for is to EdD program, and it's very, it's an applied dissertation. So from the moment, you begin the program you have begun working on your dissertation, right? There's not that you take several years of academic classes, and then you're on your own to write your dissertation from the day you walk in the door, everything your every class you're taking is in some way, related to developing that dissertation, and it was super similar to the way that right Relay plans its curriculum, and so it felt like a natural right fit for me. The thing that was still absent for me as a student was the thing that I noticed that was absent, what you know from my students, that the institution did not expand itself to figure out like hey, we're inviting this working cohort of folks, right like all of the folks that I was with that were in my cohort, were working the people who were had jobs, lives, families whatever and like how do we thoughtfully adapt the program to meet their needs and so I, had a wonderful advisor, I want to able shout out to Dr. Abel in the EdD Department and she was really good at you know staying in touch. Like I set out every other week meeting, so that we could stay in touch and I could work through my program, but I know that that was not you know that was not something that was built in. It was something that I created you know, with her and so what it led me to once I had my research done and I was I'd come up with this realization that wait a minute the students aren't what need to be fixed. This system is what needs to be fixed. I had the opportunity to try it out with my students at the local campus, where I worked, and it worked. My students were like remember I said, the black and Brown Male students were struggling. What I found out was here's why they were struggling.

Lois Dankwa

Yeah

Nichelle Bowes

They were working extra jobs to make ends meet and couldn't focus on because they're, they're all full time teachers, all of my students are full time teachers. So here it is your full time teacher, very often a brand new Full-time teacher, you have family obligations. You have and then you're trying to do this extra job. You know or it was that they didn't want to ask for help, because there was nobody at the institution, they felt safe enough to come to and say, hey, I don't understand this concept or hey, I don't have enough money to pay my bill, right, and so what we were able to do was create a very different way of welcoming our students, in to the institution before they even showed up. We had opportunities to figure out like how we would send them a welcome email that included a like, a short video to say, when you arrive this is what I look like and here's what you can come to me for here's, how I can help you and it changed the way that we sought to build relationships with that right, like at orientation instead of Just Sitting and checking with them, we tried to figure out what's your life map? What brought you here? Who are the people in your social circle that can support you? When things get hard, and they will, as everyone who's ever gone to grad school knows right, they will become challenging. I can manage your time right. Because if we you know it's like we're finding out like they're trying to do everything and not really skilled on time task management, how do you figure out, when you're gonna eat when you're gonna do laundry, when you're gonna go grocery shopping, and then we also brought in someone who was like a financial specialist, to talk to them about what's realistic, on this new salary, that you have and what maybe you know, a couple of years down the road right, because they're all recent college grads and they're like, I'm moving out of my parents' house, do you have enough money, to do that you know and it was all those things, that we had never considered prior, that once we started pouring resources into setting up spaces where they were not only comfortable, but in formed, and we started taking the proactive step instead of them having to reach out to ask for help. You miss a class, someone sends you an email, and says, hey, noticed you weren't in class today, how can I help, you know, what can I do to help you right. Not judgmental at all, but just trying to figure out what could we do to bridge the gap between us and the students.

Lois Dankwa

Yeah

Nichelle Bowes

And it worked on my local, campus, and so you know the rest right. Once you have data and results, like it becomes, you know something that you can speak to which led me to the role that I'm in right now.

Lois Dankwa

Oh, wow! I love that your story, or the story that you shared today really show some parallels for what you were experiencing and what you were seeing and where you landed on the importance of systems change and how it's important to kind of meet people where they are and I'm curious for your own story, and for your experience, as a doctoral student, or doctoral candidate, what were the systems things that helped you or where were there areas where you were like oh, I need to seek a specific mentor, seek specific resources, that can help me in my different hats that I'm wearing or yeah, can you tell me more about that.

Nichelle Bowes

I don't know. Maybe this might not be a great question for me. I'm gonna tell you why. When I was accepted into the program, I went and I looked at all the faculty who work in the program, and I hunted for somebody whose topic was as similar to mine. Because I knew I was going to be studying African American and Latinx males, and I found and when I researched and I found Dr April, and I was like ha she studies the thing that is closest to me and then I research, her background. She'd Gone through teach for America; I had gone through teach for America. She'd been a former teacher. I was a former teacher, and I was like okay, that's the person that I need to be my advisor, and so I came in already like having zoned in on a person that I wanted to have a close relationship with. And when I met with her, I said to her I'm gonna be here for 3 years, and not a day more, because our program is a 3 year program and she said okay, well, that means you're gonna have to work really hard and you know this is what we're gonna have to do and we laid out a plan together. It did take me a little longer than 3 years. But she was the right person, and that she was then able to help me build the right committee right, like Dr. Rice, Dr. Eric, Rice was on my Committee, Dr. Camille Bryant was on my committee. So, she was able to help me figure out like here's where my strengths are as a student, here's, where her strengths are as an advisor, and then what did we need to round out like whose talents did we need to round out my committee, and then she was just always, honest and she was really really good about getting me my feedback in a really, you know tight time line right. So there, you know you hear these horror stories. Like you submitted, and you don't get feedback for like 3, 4, months. That never that was never an experience, that I had and so I mean, I think the program was set up for our success.

Lois Dankwa

Yeah

Nichelle Bowes

You know what I mean like it was set up for us to be successful. I think for me what I felt like would probably have been better, is if I had been able to select my advisor right off the bat, like if I you know at the time that I was there when you come, in you had like one person who kind of sharp with you through your year one and you selected your advisor in year 2, and I guess that made sense right, like, it gives people a chance to experience, a couple of different instructors, and then they would choose an advisor. But in my case I already knew who I wanted what I came in focused I knew what I wanted how I wanted it to go, and thank God, she was receptive, and she was so I still text her and harass her every once in a while.

Lois Dankwa

Yeah, a good advisor, and a good mentor is someone, that's essential, both during a doctoral program before after, and all of that, and really the thing that I'm hearing pretty consistently, so far is the importance of intentionality, or how intentionality has really helped to you and I'm curious, kind of so you've given really good examples of how you've been intentional, and how it helps guide your research and what you're doing now. But do you have advice for people who struggle with that, or who are in the moment where they're working on their research, regardless of their program, and they're looking for their next role, but they don't know how to how to even pick that or their advisor relationship is okay, or there yeah, do you have advice, for someone that's trying to be intentional, but doesn't know how?

Nichelle Bowes

Yeah, I think intentionality starts with understanding, your goal. Right like what is the outcome you're seeking right? Like and if you know what the outcome is, then you want to know how's that gonna look like what exactly. Am I looking to feel, to experience, to hear right like once you know, and you it's not just like people say, oh, I want a job, and that could be yeah, how do you want it to feel right. Well, how do you want to be engaged where do you want to maybe live like for example. I knew I did not want to live in the Northeast. That was no, no, because it's cold, and I do not like the cold. So, a role for me needed to be something that was either in a warmer climate, or remote, which my role my role is currently remote and so it's about narrowing down what are the things, that you definitely want and then splitting those into what are the negotiables, and the non-negotiables right? Because you're not going to get everything on the list. But what are the negotiables and the non-negotiables? And then if you don't know anybody who's in that field use LinkedIn to your advantage. There are tons of people on LinkedIn who post free advice, like you don't even have to pay them and you know connect with as many people as you can while you're in school connect with people who are in fields where you think you want to go. I've done interesting meetings for tons of people who think this is the field they want to be in hit me up on LinkedIn like hey, I think this is my what I might want to do. Would you have 10, to 15 min to chat with me? Sure. Why not? Not everybody will say yes, but some people will. And you just, you know you could. You have to put yourself out there, right and ask the questions and once you have figured out like what the landscape looks like, for me I will say it was worth it to invest in a career coach to help me tailor, my resume or CV, to tailor my LinkedIn profile to help me to figure out where to look and that that was super helpful. Now I say all that, and you probably like well, you're at the same institution where you were before right. But what that intentionality did for me. It raised my profile at that institution, right I was doing this work. I found the results, and I shared it. I shared it with the influential people. Even before I walked in my graduation, they had set up a time for me to train all of the faculty advisors on the advisement model that I had created and because I was given that opportunity, I was able to then train more and more. Every summer I would come in and train people and so of course when a position as Dean of Student Affairs became available, my name was on the top of People's Minds right, and then, you know student affairs turned into Vice Provost of Student Affairs and here I am but I would always say this: People think working hard is the thing that's gonna get you noticed right. Working hard is the thing that's gonna get you noticed in Year one of your role. Making connections with people and learning More, about how you can advance is what's going to get your name called in rooms that you have not yet entered right. Demonstrating strategic thinking, being able to manage even if you say I have no direct reports but you work with people laterally, every day. For example, in this podcast I'm sure you're doing, some lateral management, right like we're, you have to work with people from different departments to get it, done make connections, right build investment, figure out like how you know to build relationships with those people, and you create a reputation for yourself and then when opportunities come available people know your work ethic already. They know how you treat them. They know that you're a strategic thinker. They know you’re a people manager, they know you are intentional right about your work, and it starts there.

Lois Dankwa

Yeah

Nichelle Bowes

And so that would be you know some of the advice I would give.

Lois Dankwa

I love that. I love everything that you said. I admittedly in the very beginning my feelings were hurt when you said you didn't want to live in the Northeast as a person who Rides for the Northeast though you said it was because it's the cold. It's very cold today, so you're right. The northeast, has its downfalls.

Nichelle Bowes

I will say this, I grew up in Brooklyn. I did my undergrad at Binghamton University. Do you know, where Binghamton is?

Lois Dankwa

I do. I lived in New York. It's very cold there.

Nichelle Bowes

Right. It's very cold there, and then I lived for new in New Jersey, for something like 38 years, I think. I still rep every New York team, like, if the Giants are playing anybody, I'm repping them. The Bills, the Jets, the Yankees, the Mets I rep New York hard. This is where I live there it's cool. I Don't want to be both.

Lois Dankwa

I love though that you also you really highlighted the importance of initiative as well, where it's resources can exist in abundance. But you still have to go and get them in some way, shape or form, and of course it's important to recognize there's differences in personality, and different styles, and approach but you mentioned you got a Career Coach to help you fine tune things, or for some people it's reaching across laterally instead of if you don't have a higher up, that you even are connected to or you even have direct report to right now and it's maybe even about thinking about for someone, for the person in particular what makes most sense for them to do rather than going, Oh! Lois likes talking to people. Let me do Lois's approach of talking to people, when, in fact, that is not natural to that person. So, I love that you listed out so many possibilities that are still really effective ways to grow professionally when you're trying to figure out your path after doctoral studies, yeah.

Nichelle Bowes

I will say this, I am a dedicated introvert. If you want me to shrivel up and die, tell me I have to go to a networking event. I, like having to do the small talk and talk about myself. I am terrible, terrible terrible at marketing myself. But what I'm better at is on LinkedIn connecting with people, asking questions, because it's safer and for you to me, as an introvert I can engage when I want, I can disengage when I don't want without fear of judgment, and so I love that you named that it has to be authentic to who you are. Authenticity is really important. People can pick up on it very quickly when you're not being authentic and they’re less inclined to want to invest in you, if you're not being authentic, and so that's why like I say like with lateral management if right now you don't have a person that is a higher up, or a lateral management is a really good way to start practicing those skills, because they're anytime you're working on a project with anybody they're bound to be times, when it becomes a challenge for whatever reason, but if you are super thoughtful about how you approach that challenge right you can turn that challenge into an opportunity and what you're really looking for in any space is sponsors, right? People who are going to say your name right attached to good things, and in rooms where you don't keep have access. The other side of that is, once you get there, you might want to start doing that for some people, too right. Like it's not just about getting there. It's like, how do you, then do that for people? One easy way to do that is like, when you're working on a project if somebody helped you to think through something, say that right like you know Lois and I were talking the other day and she had this really great idea, to do blah blah Blah Blah Blah. And now you have become the person that is mentioning someone's name in a room that they did not have access to it. 

Lois Dankwa

So yeah, giving people credit is, it's important. It's very important, so I have 2 more questions for you. If that's okay, so the first is it's on the it's on the note of advice. So I am curious about the best career advice that you've ever received, and that it could be more than one thing. But what rises to the top, for you?

Nichelle Bowes

I think it was that thing right, that working hard is only you know gonna get you so far, right, because working hard, when you work hard in Year one you've set the bar now for what the expectation is for you right. And so that was the best piece of advice I'd ever, gotten and I'll tell you why. I was working for a manager, and there were things that I knew how to do, that he didn't know how to do. So, I would just do them. I would just take initiative, and do them. And one day we were doing my performance review, and he gave me a review that I didn't agree with, and he said he gave me that rating on innovation, I forget what it was, but he said you don't ask me for more to do, and I was like I was crest fallen, like my face fell because I'm like I ask you for more to do, but I just go and do, it. Like how do you not see that and what I named for him is that culturally I'm from the Caribbean, I'm Guyanese, and culturally, for me, it felt odd to go to my manager and say hey, I want to do more of what you do. Right.

Lois Dankwa

Yeah

Nichelle Bowes

It felt, weird. It did not feel natural to me, and so I was like what you saw as a negative was definitely me showing assign a respect.

Lois Dankwa

Yeah

Nichelle Bowes

So, no one ever gave me this advice, but it's advice that I would give people. Understand the cultural nuances of the folks you're working with, whether it's an upper relationship or downwards, lateral, understand the cultural nuances. Because you may be completely missing or totally misinterpreting things that they're doing that would allow you to see them in a different light, right and once I said that to him and I was able to point out like I do this and I do that and I do that. I don't ask but I do it right, and he apologized, and he was able to see it from a different light. But it was so heartbreaking for me to hear that that at like me of all people I'm like, sir, of course, I take initiative, I just don't ask you because it felt uncomfortable and so I think understanding cultural nuance is the big piece of advice. No one's ever given it to me. But I've learned it over time that it is so important for a simple one, generational cultures, right for me, when I am in meetings, and people keep their cameras off. It drives me to drink, but I get it. I am from a completely different generation than you know most of the people, I manage and for them it's like Zoom, fatigue like I want to talk to you, but I don't want my background to show. Or you know I don't necessarily feel comfortable with you seeing what's inside my house. And so, I had to learn to get over myself right, like, because to me, it felt rude like you wouldn't mute your face in public like, how are you muting your face on Zoom, but I like I still don't all the way get it, but I respect it right and so it's that thing of understanding. Not just seeing things from your limited perspective and trying to expand your thought process to why someone is doing the thing, or what are they bringing to the table, that you may be totally missing

Lois Dankwa

Yeah, that's always a good reminder. And it's we're interacting with someone, every single day. And we all have our own lived experiences that are informing our every next action. So it's an important bit of advice and an important thing to take with us. So, I have one more question for you, and it is what inspires you right now?

Nichelle Bowes

Gen—I don't know what they're called. What are the little kids called now like the 12 Year Olds and the 10-year-olds

Lois Dankwa

I don't know that I'm the one for this question. I think they're Gen Alpha?

Nichelle Bowes

I don't know what they're called, but they are so dope right now, like I have this niece who is 12, who has conversations like, really Comprehensive Conversations with me about climate change, about the environment, about social justice, and you know, for her, using they/them it's just natural and non-binary is a part of her lexicon. I am so impressed by that right like they are poised right to be the next generation of leaders, and I see it every day in the kids that I interact with because they are they're exposed in some bad ways, but in a lot of good ways to so much more than you know, the generations before them ever were and they're taking that information and they're distilling it in a really positive way, and they're walking out as like the social Justice Warriors who are like oh, no so yeah, they you know they/them is not a thing like why are you so upset about that? It's just the way someone chooses to express themselves. Why can't you understand that? And I'm just like you're 12. But teach me. I love it, and they I'm so excited by them, right now. I'm so excited by their promise, and so that's what's inspiring me, because I'm teach I'm I don't teach anymore. But I'm, working with I'm supporting the teachers. We're teaching them. And I'm like we have to get it right because they’re so dope and they're ready. They are so ready to learn and to you know, take on more leadership from the ground up you know. They participated in a virtual protest when the Supreme Court ruling came out on Roe v. Wade. They participated in like on these games that they play on these platforms, and I was just they're so engaged and I am so inspired by them. I think they're gonna be—I think I think I'll feel safe getting old it doesn't like by the time I get old they'll be in charge, and they'll be all right.

Lois Dankwa

That's really that that's really sweet and it's, yeah, they have a lot of information. And they, know how to use it. Which is interesting, but it's also inspiring. For sure, I think that for certain generations that were a little before them it was like new, so it was also a little clunky. So, it's nice that they've been able to kind of deal with the refined, the refined stuff, and it'll be exciting to see what they do with it, and also, just that the beauty of youth. And this is things that are still told to me that you don't know you're not really as jaded, you're not you're, just excited by all the possibilities and you’re eternally optimistic, which is a very good thing, I think. So, yeah. Inspiration via our youth, I love, that.

Nichelle Bowes

Yeah, I mean, look at what Greta Thunberg is doing, you know, like she's made the world sit up and take notice like, and this, this these kids they're, they're ready. They are ready. They're equipped and I think that's the piece right like they are Equipped, and just making sure that in the education system, for the teachers that I touch that we're doing our part to keep them equipped to do you know help them get there.

Lois Dankwa

Yeah well, Nichelle, thank you thank you thank you for taking time to chat with me. I loved hearing a bit about your story, and how you thought through your doctoral studies and about what's inspiring you and all the advice you shared today. So, thank you so much.

Nichelle Bowes

You are my most welcome Lois. It was a lovely meeting you, and I mean some of these questions I have not pondered in a while. So, it was really good to you know, in my first day of break to reset, and get my mind back to what inspires me.